The Watch - Mailbag on 2018’s Pop Culture Crown, Big Franchise IP and More | The Watch (Ep. 273)

Episode Date: July 9, 2018

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald open up the mailbag and answer listener questions about everything from who owns 2018’s Pop Culture Crown to which major franchise they’d remake if they could and much more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Sorry to Bother You. The new film critics are calling Get Out on Apple. Don't miss this year's most original comedy in Select Theaters July 6th and everywhere, July 13th. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio.

Please, Mr. Postman, it's Andy Greenwald. We're doing a special show today, guys, because Chris and I are not... We're not really here. We're not here. Yeah. We were never really here. Yeah. We're not in Los Angeles. We're both on

separate missions in various desert cities. If you're hearing this, it's too late because we're in the desert, yeah. If you want like hot live content, come back for Thursday show. We will talk about sharp objects. We'll talk about succession. We'll do the back. The next three episodes of glow. Maybe there's

breaking cultural news. I'm sure we'll be able to hit that stuff. But that's not today's show. Today show, we are going to talk about your questions. You've got mail. Let's start with Andrew Magna, who asks at this point in 2018, who is firmly wearing the pop culture crown,

which is incredibly different from the TV belt. Right. Which we have not awarded in quite a while. Probably since Atlanta, I guess. Yeah. It certainly hasn't felt like there's been any show that's grabbed hold of us and everybody else. Yeah, right.

But in terms of like the pop culture crown, when I read Andrews question, I immediately thought of approval rating. And I don't necessarily mean that in terms of like Nielsen ratings or box office returns, but finding someone to say, I didn't like this.

Finding someone who's less than enthusiastic about it is incredibly hard. Okay. And the only thing in 2018, pop culture-wise, that I can think of, that satisfies that, is Black Panther. And when I say Black Panther, I mean the entire endeavor. I mean the rollout of the entire project where it was just like, all these people are delightful, the actual film itself, which I rewatched recently and still plays on a small screen. Yeah. In fact, the part of the movie that I did not like the first time I saw it,

which was Michael B. Jordan's performance, I really came around on the second viewing. The soundtrack kills. I think it's obviously having kind of like a second life as it hits iTunes and hits streaming services and people can enjoy it at home. And I think we'll hear about it a lot more in the fall when they make, I would imagine,

a pretty significant push for it to be nominated for Best Picture. So I have like, can you think of anything that's happened in 2018 culturally as good as Black Panther? I have any, I do have my own answer, but I want to just riff on yours for a second because I think you're entirely right. I think it's an inspired choice. And I think part of the reason why I find it so appealing

is it actually answers a question I didn't really answer a week or two ago but really struggled with, which is this seemingly yawning chasm between expectation, anticipation, tweets and delivery in actual reality. Yeah, we were talking about that with the Drake record.

The Drake record, yeah. And even things like Ocean's 8, which I just sort of gave a cursory dismissal to because I saw it and you didn't. But that seemed like something that was born out of Instagram likes. You know, everyone was so excited. They were squeeing.

They wanted to marry this cast of women together. And they made a deeply mediocre movie. And did that matter? I guess, maybe, to the studio's bottom line. But it did feel like it was something that existed solely for Sosh, in a way, which is not really a smart play for longevity because, as we were reminded,

constantly in news, both entertainment and political, Twitter is not reality. Yeah, well, but what you're saying is actually really, really interesting because we talked about this when we, when we mentioned that we had hosted that Atlanta panel, and I don't mean to be name dropping here, but one of the most fascinating things that Donald Glover said to us was my pick for the answer for this question. Was that he was competing with Instagram, was that he was competing with the entire internet and the entire history of television, anything you can do at any moment when you're like, what do I want to do with my free time?

and part of what drives Atlanta's creative team is to make a show that they know is going to have moments that capture the imagination. And I don't think that there's anything wrong with Oceans 8 or any number of movies that had like a huge buildup and then kind of a flat reception

when they were finally released. I think it's just that they're just regular old movies that are being promoted as if a baby is going to jump out of like a cake and rule us all with benevolence and love. And like that's just, it's just a movie. Yes. Even, I don't think Ocean's 11

could have stood up to the rollout that you're expected to make for any movie now. But, so let's put up the two pillars then. Your answer and my answer, my answer being Donald Glover, Black Panther somehow just cheated the odds and cheated gravity. Because as you said,

even the parts of the entire rollout that seemed designed to annoy a professional curmudgeon like myself were utterly charming, utterly delightful. Now, partly I think it was the fact that many of the stars coming out of that movie were new stars, newly minted stars, not just Michael Jordan and Chadwick Boseman, who were ready to go to a next level, but Winston Duke, for example, or Letitia Wright, who just appeared fully formed as people we wanted in. our lives and in our movies. And then ultimately, yeah, the movie was good. And then it had the thing that we love most, which is a long tale of cultural conversation, of engagement, of excitement,

and passion. I think the flip side of that, my answer to this question would be Donald Glover because he just shows this incredible ability to gracefully tap dance across contemporary culture. Yeah. And stay winning, even when one major plank of his 2018 or the first half of his 2018, which is his performance in solo, kind of stiff. He has emerged from that. fine, I think. Sure. And one of the reasons he's emerged from that fine is because he keeps working and he keeps moving. But I think that I think the flip side to what we're talking about in terms of anticipation

and buildup is what you alluded to, which is he uses the element of surprise. No one knew that this is America video was coming. Yeah. And it dominated. I think you just have to have the goods. And no one, you have to have the goods, but he, but he, maybe it's all the same, maybe it's all the same thing. He delivered the season of Atlanta that was absolutely jaw-dropping and brilliant.

and he told us nothing about it. Yeah. And he knew he had the goods. And it was a confidence that is appealing in a sustaining way. Yeah, I think that the thing that I noticed about Black Panther when I rewatched is how it worked on three different levels. It worked on the, like, the initial level of like, man, it's incredibly satisfying to see different people represented in these kinds of movies. Then it had a kind of emotional gut punch that I think I knew about the first time. And then really the fact that it maintained its power, the second viewing.

which is essentially the relationship between Tachala and Eric, you know, and the idea of these sort of, they're not brothers, but they're like the idea that they would have these competing visions for our kingdom and one would feel so aggrieved by the other and the other would sort of try to apply his

global worldview to a interpersonal relationship and just the actual ending of that movie is really, really powerful. And then it has this intellectual level about superpowers, quote unquote as superpowers in the geopolitical sense and the ideas of isolationism or exceptionalism or whether or not it's your duty to help those out there

who need it or are you only responsible for the people who are within your borders, which only becomes more and more resonant as this year goes on. So I think that that movie is just operating on a couple of different levels that most movies that do get that kind of roll out, that do get that kind of like, only three more days until your life changes.

And then you get a movie and you're like, that's cool. That was a good movie or that was a fine movie. This movie transcended that. So that's why I think we both have our reasons. So Andy's saying Donald Glover and I'm saying Black Panther. Dick Whitman, shout out to the Mad Men, asks, this is a really good question.

Recently, a lot of parentheses, dumb people have called for Disney to remake The Last Jedi. Not your parentheses. And let's also just, if I just made out a footnote, I don't think a lot of people. I think a guy with a Twitter account who was having a really good run on Twitter. A subreddit, basically has emerged.

Yeah, basically saying that he has $200 million in investment pending if he can get Bob Iger to sign off on allowing to remake Last Jedi because it was so disappointing to hardcore Star Wars fans, which I disagree with. While this would never happen, it got me thinking if given the opportunity, what installment in a popular film franchise would you redo

and what would you do differently? And Dick, I am going to add another restriction to this. I'm going to say, like saying, let's remake something that came out last December, I'm going to say we can only remake something that came out in the last five years. Okay. Do you have yours? Yeah. Okay. Hit me.

Man of Steel. It's potentially surprising because people know that I'm not a D.C. guy, but I do get the appeal of the character of Superman. And I think if we're making Ant-Man and the Wasp movies,

we should be making a decent Superman movie as an export to the world. And not to even be a total cornball about it, but I find the origin story of Superman on any number of levels kind of moving. And I get why people find that character so inspiring, that Superman is, in fact, not just the ultimate immigrant, but the ultimate optimist and is at heart a deeply hopeful character. And DC and Warner Brothers have mismanaged this character so deeply

and perversely that it boggles the mind. I get from a financial conservative thinking perspective why you think, like Christopher Nolan has done a good job for you on the Batman movies, and maybe we even want to talk about that a little bit either this week or another week because of the 10th anniversary or the Dark Night. But he was the one who was sort of handed the reins

of the Superman franchise, I think really just... I think he got the check. I think he got the check. To put his name in a trailer. And I think he was given a short list that Warner Brothers wanted to work with anyway. but regardless, he chose Zach Snyder for this. And of all the criticisms one can make about Zach Snyder,

and I've made many over the podcast, he doesn't do optimistic. He doesn't do hopeful. And so I think it was rotten from the jump what they were doing here. And, you know, I wish that the people in charge could take a deep breath, do a hard reset, and give us a different vision. And my dream vision of this is, and I've said it before, I hope people check it out.

Grant Morrison, as far as I'm concerned, solve the character. in a really real way in this series called All-Star Superman. But here's where my argument falters, because I was trying to think of who should be the one to steward this. Who brings an atmosphere of hope and optimism and lightness. You were asking me this question before we start recording.

To cinema, or even to TV these days, but also could marshal the resources and the production to push that vision through without it being noted to death. And I don't know. And I was going to ask you, I did ask you, who's the new Richard Donner? And maybe there isn't one, and that's kind of the problem. Maybe that's partly why this movie isn't getting made. I don't, you know, if you could line up all your foe Spielbergs against the wall,

and I don't think I would pick JJ Abrams to do this. I don't think I would pick Colin Trevor wrote to do this. I don't know who to do, who I would pick. And I'm wondering if someone comes to mind for you. The Denisville and Uve who made a rival is, is, got that element of hopefulness and beauty, but I don't know if he has quite the human touch you're looking for. That's right.

His movies don't often brim with humor. It's such an interesting idea, though, because what you got exactly right by suggesting that in Arrival is there is a unspeakable majesty to the idea of something bigger than us, to the gravity of something. And so the idea of an alien wearing a fucking red cape and flying, yeah, I want it to feel heavy in the sense of emotion and power, but then I also want it to be completely uplifting.

For me, that's still what I'm missing from comic book movies, which is the thing that the Warner Brothers marketing team in the 70s understood when it was you will believe a man can fly. So I think on some deep level, even though we've seen everything possible and impossible happen on big screen and small in the intervening 40 years, sometimes I still don't believe people can fly. So help me out, listeners, suggest the person. Maybe it's someone who's only done small work.

Maybe it's someone who we're not even checking for. But who is that person who could pull something like that off in 2018, 2019, 2020? Because I'd love to see it. Yeah, because the only other suggestion I have besides Villeneuve is Jeff Nichols, who did Midnight Special. Yeah. And I know that he was being offered or there was rumors that he might do Aquaman at one point. But that is a guy who has that Amblin touch.

that if you're looking for something like that, I just don't know if that's... I would love to see Jeff Nichols make like five other movies before he gets trapped making a superhero movie. Yeah, but sometimes it's the hardest thing to do, but if you find the person who has the vision and the chops and just can vibrate on the right frequency of the moment, like Ryan Coogler did with Black Panther, it is possible.

My pick for what to remake from the last five years a movie to remake would be Alien Covenant, which came out in 2017. Good call. This series, Alien Covenant. Prometheus, I think, in its own way, while I think it has a lot of detractors

and it has, you can rightfully criticize that movie is one of the most fascinating mainstream movie experiments in a really long time. I agree. It was, first of all, it had one of the best trailers

of all time, I think. And then Damon Lindeloff and a bunch of other people wrote this script. John Spates. John Spates, that really Scott directed that there is a way

you to read it as one of like the most profoundly weird spiritual, you know, inquisitions that you'll see in a sci-fi horror movie ever. And that it's basically got this incredible biblical allegory going on. And it's, it's just this fascinating movie. And it did actually leave open this idea of like, well, okay, so we know, and we've talked about like these problems with these movies. Okay, we know where these movies are going to wind up. But, a lot of ways the alien movies have been so limited and claustrophobic to the spaceships that they're set on or the prison planets that they're set on that we don't really know much about what's happening on the world that created this phenomenon and how that world is dealing with it

and i think that we thought that these new movies were going to do that covenant comes along and they completely overcast it where there's just like nine different really good actors competing for like 45 seconds each and you know we were recently just talked about this with Soldado, where you were saying, like, I would just do the, like, former partners split apart while a man is being chased across the desert. Because, by the way, that was my pick, but we talked about it the other week. This movie, Covenant should have just been the Amy Simon story. Amy Simons gives this incredible, short, spoiler alert, performance in Covenant as this character named Maggie Ferris, who is married to Danny McBride's pilot character, and she's a scientist

working on this planet that they go to. But she has the most fun in a weird way. I mean, she has a spectacular character death, but she has the most fun. She is the most realistic character in this movie. And they also have Catherine Waterston, and they also have Billy Cruttup, and they also have Danny McBride,

and they have two Michael Fastbenders going. So there's all this different stuff happening. But there was so much potential in this movie to continue the weirdness of Prometheus, but also start answering more questions. And instead, I think they kind of just couldn't make up their mind what they wanted to do with this franchise. And I would be actually surprised if they make a third one at this point.

But it's a shame because I actually really thought that Covenant could have been aliens to Prometheus' alien. All right, next question. We're going to David James, who asks, can you guys explain what aspects of killing Eve you liked and why you thought it was good? I struggled mightily with it. and I'm trying to process those feelings and interrogate whether it is some latent sexism on my part,

i.e. e.g., I enjoyed Barry. So this is interesting, because I think this comes up a lot as we start to become more fluent publicly with our own biases as a society or at least being asked to be more fluent with our biases. And then when you have like a television show thing, Andy and I spent a lot of the spring

talking about Barry and killing Eve as partner shows, as sort of shows that we're touching on some of the same themes, if your preference was Barry over killing Eve, you know, the biases that might be inherent in that. So I think it's thoughtful that this guy is actually at least saying, like, I'm working through that. He said he didn't dislike it. He just didn't like it.

And he had high expectations and got annoyed after a few Epps. I think that, sorry, I think that what you have to consider there is tone. And a lot of this material, a lot of it is really, really dependent on. the approach that people take. And I think Andy and I were so praising of Phoebe Wallerbridge. We don't often stop to say she may be an acquired taste. And I don't know necessarily what David was reacting to there.

He said he had a similar reaction to Fleabag in that he didn't really care for that either, but was interrogating like why. But Phoebe Wallerbridge is like a tough proposition. Well, I think she's very specific. And I think one of the things that Chris and I look for and respond to is strength of voice because we're looking for things

that cut through the clutter. And I've said this fully as a compliment that I think her voice is dazzling and rings out like a church bill and you could recognize it anywhere. And that is extremely rare for, certainly for TV writers when a lot of the goal

is to sort of mute some of the more extreme tendencies or your quirks down to make it either more palatable or to play well with others, however that may be. Look, I think there's two questions. year. One is, yeah, people like different things and people like different approaches to things.

And you can look at the same ingredients and you can prefer one chef's dish more than the other. And I think that it's worth noting that what made Barry and Killing Eve both exceptional was that they took a subject matter that could either be, could rate, the reaction to it could range from this was sort of boilerplate to this is offensive and appalling and violent and really found something that interested each show in. a surprising way. The thing that interested each show was surprising to me, ultimately. And for killing Eve, what it was deeply interested in was these issues of obsession and the relationship between professional women and their

role in the larger world. Yeah, whether to have an inspired life meant to have a dangerous life. Yeah, and your mileage on that may vary as much as your mileage may vary on the voice that's telling you the story. Something that we struggle with often is being into something at the beginning and then slowly that that sinking feeling

as your interest wanes as you realize that the storyteller doesn't share your interest, that they're telling you a very different story than the one you thought you signed up for. And if you're out on that voice, then you're probably going to be out on the show from there. So we definitely, I mean, I appreciate, like Chris said, I appreciate an honest accounting and the question,

but you don't have to like stuff. Yeah, for sure. And it might not be for everyone. And there were flaws in Killing Eve, but I continue to think of it as just truly, this year, particularly this year, which has been a really down year for television, a really engaging, really thrilling, really surprising,

and, and I got to say, deeply entertaining show. Yeah. I had a great time watching it, which I don't say about a lot of things anymore. Some shows are homework, and this one isn't. Yeah. One more question before we go to a break here. BS tape wants to know,

what are two to three of the most popular? I can't believe you guys aren't watching. There's only one. And you've gotten this request for the last few years, and is there ever a chance they'll revisit them? Say it. The expanse. It's the expanse.

It's by far the expanse. Both because I think it is in the zone of shows that we would talk about. Like, shit, we care about space. Yeah. Yeah, it's out there, man. It's sci-fi. And then I think when this show had it, it's on life support moment. I think there was like a push to be like, you guys, you guys got to talk about the expanse

to keep it alive as if like you and I are going to change anybody's mind about that. It doesn't matter. because Bezos came through and dropped the bag. And now they get to go into space on that Amazon money. And if anything, it's moved to Amazon has kind of inspired me. If I have the time, I would like to catch up with this show, if only because I'm curious to see what happens when they move on to Amazon and what Amazon can do for it in terms of its production.

Is it going to have either a jump in quality or a change in tone, Much like your beloved Sneaky Pete did between the CBS pilot and the subsequent Amazon series. By the way, awful quiet. I haven't caught up with Sneaky Pete yet. Sneaky Pete's? You're just saving it for like a nice long weekend binge?

All right, I'm gonna keep your feet to fire on it. That's the same one for both of us, I think. I don't think there's anything that comes close to the amount of times we've been asked to talk about the expanse. The other one that I carry with me, just like it's a millstone, I really wish that I was conversant in these shows are the stars shows,

Survivors' Remorse and Power. Shout out to Tanya. People love these shows. Oh, shout out to Tanya, who's always riding for them. She loves power. She's not alone. Yeah. Like, people...

Tanya, who works at the Ringer and who's a lovely, lovely human being. People are really into these shows. They seem interesting, compelling, and I'd miss the boat. And as Chris said, this is the feeling. This is something that I don't think is just a critic's complaint. When the ship has sailed,

and you don't have that binge time, it's very hard to jump back on board. All right, we're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsors and we'll be right back to answer some more of your questions. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Seekek.

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The show is close to flawless, and it's a sequel to one of the most beloved TV shows ever made. We got to, I mean, we bring this up every so often. And in fact, I was thinking about that show this morning in the shower, and kind of for the same reasons. We'll recount the story here. Chris and I, I think we weekly covered it the first season. We kind of dribbed and drabbed the second season, and then we both just utterly slept on the third season, so much so that when the year ended and it was on a bunch of top 10 lists, I was flabbergasted.

I'd just forgotten about it, which speaks to its role in the larger cultural conversation. But then when it hit Netflix, I took the time to revisit it. And I got to say, I loved watching it. And I usually don't feel this way about shows.

I loved watching it in a Netflix binge. And I think it was because what I, I think of one of the dominant reactions to Better Call Saul is just deep admiration and respect. That's not necessarily the same thing as passion. That is not engaging social media activity. that is not pins and needles every week with a large group of your friends

or a large part of the country the way Breaking Bad was. But this show, as the questioner said, is expertly made and is designed like a precision auto. It's beautiful to watch, but it is more rewarding, I think, when you can watch

the dominoes fall with more immediacy. This third season, the way that they paid off, and I won't, of course, won't spoil anything, but the way that they paid off that, to call a slow burn, is an injustice to actually slow burns. This was like a slow singe of Jimmy's relationship with his brother Chuck is astonishing.

And yet it is almost not speaking the same language as every other TV show because that's a right it has earned from the pedigree that's behind it. It is, we've talked before about things being slow food TV. I mean, this is the Tritoria in Italy that doesn't have a website and you drive up the winding road. and when you get there, they will make you the best pasta you've ever had, but you can't Instagram it. Yeah, right. That is my relationship to this show now, and I don't know if it would continue to exist if it wasn't. Well, it wouldn't exist at all, of course, that breaking bad.

If it wasn't attached to the Breaking Bad universe. I think the one thing I would say to Mike here is that Saul is like a slow burn character-driven show in an age where TV is increasingly becoming reminiscent of 80s movie culture, by which I mean I remember in the late. 80s once sort of had like a bunch of these blockbusters like Terminator and Die Hard. And then every movie afterwards was just described as a combination of those movies. So it was die hard on a plane or die hard on a submarine or Terminator but in space. And there's nothing, I don't think that that's, it's as drastic in television right now, but more and more, if I tell you that this is a show that's just about the fall from, not even grace, but just the fall into hell of a of a down on Luck lawyer.

That's not like a show you can get sold. You can sell it as part of the Breaking Bad expanded universe made by the people who made Breaking Bad. But this kind of slowly-paced character-driven show that I think we thought was going to be the hallmark of television coming out of the quote-unquote Golden Age is actually becoming more and more rare. These rectifies your breaking bads. Even to some extent things like justified that were like a procedural but were essentially

character-driven dromedes are harder and harder to get off the ground because you have these networks that are looking to activate against, hey, is there a time travel element? Is it like an 80s homage? Is this somehow got an element of life after death going on? Like, there's very few things in production that don't have a mystery or some sort of supernatural sci-fi element to it. I think it's also hamstrung by the fact that it falls. squarely into a category of shows we were discussing when we were talking about what could be the next Game of Thrones, which is shows that have robbed themselves

to one major plank of their dramatic potential, which is that it's a prequel, and we kind of know. You know, we are filling in, deliciously filling in the gaps of Mike Erman Trout's backstory, but we know what happened to him in that sedan. We know. And so it just doesn't quite, it doesn't elevate to the same degree.

That said, that show does have one major card left to turn at the end, which is every season has begun with a glimpse of Saul's post-breaking Bad Life. And so the easy assumption to make is that it will end with some CODA that will give us some finality. Or it could be that this show could take a jump into a Breaking Bad sequel at some point. Exactly. Which, you know, your mileage on that may vary because a lot of the major characters of Breaking Bad won't be part of that sequel. Or you don't want to know what happened to Jesse when he drove away. I hope that we don't find out.

Mother of Pod wants to know. A common theme of your pod is that filmmakers and audiences are heading to TV and streaming as the cinema market fills with existing IP and loses original stories. What happens when the race for the next Game of Thrones causes IP saturation and television, as you noted with HAL. I guess we just touched on this a little bit with the Better Call Saul conversation. It depends on whether or not there is an audience for things. things like succeed under in the future.

Like if there is an audience, I mean, this is us is an example of something that is a relatively original concept and a relatively original, if not a well-worn, you know, television trope of like a family drama, but has like an added twist to it. It has that one extra bit. But also is just like a humanistic, approachable, lovable television show. The flip side of that is that. And it's a hit. And then there's here and now, which is, checks all those boxes.

Alan Ball's show for HBO, which is a straightforward family drama. It also had a little bit of a supernatural twist thrown on top of it. And it was a disaster. So I guess what I'm saying is that Game of Thrones is its own thing, Lord of the Rings is its own thing, Westworld's his own thing. Like there are different, there's different kinds of IP being mined for this. TV is still its own thing. You know, like this idea of like a family drama or a crime drama. or there are certain things that they know work on television.

And as long as there's an audience for that, I think we'll still see original stories, we'll still see twists on old stories in television. I don't think everything will be the, hey, we're going to TV with a new take on this old movie yet, but that time is not so far away. Yeah, it's just a question of what you do with it. I mean, there are,

last week we talked about glow, as an example of a show that found a way to spin something wholly entertaining really, to me, really exciting and challenging out of inherited IP

and using the bones of ensemble sitcoms. But even with those, knowing all of that, it's still, I find it hugely rewarding. So yeah, it's absolutely possible. I wonder in

in the race, I wonder what it does to the race for more and more IP. What about something like Preacher? Which we've both been very into at times. I believe has returned for a third season and I haven't even watched or noticed it. And it's just funny. I think that, forget the next Game of Thrones. I think that AMC felt very excited and very confident that it had something quite big for Game of Thronesy reasons,

not just because it was pre-existing IP that people had a, certain fandom had a close relationship to, but because it had that same pre-existing spine that then Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg and Sam Catlin and all the talented people who work on the show could just play with. And the show, I still think, deserves attention because it has a really high-quality cast, and it has a sense of play that a lot of shows don't. But otherwise, it just seems to kind of be there, right? Am I misreading the situation? I think one of the issues pre- is having is one of the issues I sometimes have when you describe the plot of a comic book line that I, you want me to read. And you'll be like, so there's, so death has come back,

but he's actually just a marketing executive. You know, like, there are the, it's, preacher is doing exactly what it always said it was going to do. It's just that they were hoping it was going to be the walking dead. Right. You know, it's preacher was always fucked up. Yeah. And weird and like, they were always going to, like, if you gave it to Sam, uh, to Sam Catlin and Evan Goldberg and Seth, Seth Rogen, you were going to get some like, and here's Hitler and he's fighting the devil or whatever. Like, that's just like, I can't explain that to anybody

when they're like, what should I be watching right now? And I'm like, preacher, here's why, do you have 10 minutes for me to explain this to you? Yeah. You know? And in some ways, that's what's holding back the expanse a little bit. I think the expanse's setup is pretty convoluted. It's kind of difficult to explain.

Not that Game of Thrones isn't, but you can explain, Game of Thrones as there's a lot of sex and these families are fighting. And it's basically like a sword and shields and dragons war. It's pretty cool. And also the story around the story becomes part of the story, which is to say once that first season started to take off and people were watching it and talking about it and there was time to get on the train

and it built and built, it's TBD whether that kind of audience growth, word of mouth, second screen excitement is still, possible? Or is it the Game of Thrones was the last recipient of that kind of culture

that boosted Breaking Bad and other shows in the previous era of TV? Or is Game of Thrones actually that magical unicorn who probably is fucking its unicorn sister that can still,

that can defy gravity in a way that other shows are still aspiring to do? Absolutely. Password as Taco asks, maybe Andy could explain why some IP ends up as TV shows and some winds up as movies,

for example, always thought the passage would have been a movie because of how CGI heavy, the Flyers would have had to be believable, while World War Z would work best as TV because of its episodic vignette nature. I think we've talked before about the dream for World War Z would be the Ken Burns mockumentary version of it. The passage, it's very interesting that they are making this as a television show because I can't tell how much they are going to be poker-faced. about the passage, about what happens in the passage.

Like Game of Thrones, I think like Walking Dead, there are some late in the book, and then you would assume late in maybe the second season twists in the passage that I think are crucial to the story, and I don't know if Fox has the time to have a first season be about the prologue of the book. No, I think the misfire is that it's on Fox, frankly. I mean, I still hold out hope,

although not hope anymore, it's happened, But, you know, if this was an FX thing, it could be great. And I think that's one that should have been a TV show, not a movie. But to answer the question, what it really comes down to is what powerful people are excited about it. You know, that's really what it is. I mean, a prestigious producer who gobbles up something, like a Scott Rudin or something, they look to the movies. You know, they want to make, or Jerry Bruchheimer, whatever. Like, if they get the property, they look to the movies first.

That's the business they know. That's, you know, they look for global opportunity. there's a lot of money to be made, big stars to attach. That's the world that they exist in. The thing about World War Z is that, yeah, there are 100 different versions of what it could be, but Brad Pitt, one of the world's remaining superstars, got interested in it or got excited about it, or his people grabbed it for him and got excited about it and pitched it as a vehicle for him to do the thing that his handlers thought would be good for him to do, which would be a big action movie at this point in his career.

So that's what it became. For as much as we've talked about how the business has changed, and there are all these different avenues to express. yourself and to put things on the screen, it is still a power-driven, star-driven industry. Yeah. And if someone really big and fancy grabs it, they're going to do their big and fancy thing with it. And if it trickles down to the peons, then maybe it'll be something more interesting. All right, let's wrap up

with this one from Chauncey Talese. What is Andy's U-2 conspiracy theory? Aside from REM, what other major pop culture figures or works have left no cultural footprint? There's a reason why we didn't do the U-2 conspiracy theory. Oh, okay. Forget it. No, no. People have been asking about it. That's fine. Okay.

I appreciate, first of all, as someone who is a fan of, like, who was shooting from the other outrigger on Lost, like unanswered questions in long-running dramas are crucial. So for the record, we did record a long thing where I explained by YouTube Octung Baby conspiracy theory about what that album really tracks, and then we deleted it out of respect for the adults involved. So I think the mystery will have to remain until we do a live show or something, and there are no tapes and libel laws have changed. That said, what an interesting question.

To recap, we've said this before. I think we said it with Bill once on a podcast. Growing up, REM was a huge, huge, huge presence in our lives. I mean, R&M was my first favorite, favorite band. I loved them more than anything. They ushered any alternative rock movement of the 90s. And briefly, bizarrely became the biggest band in the world for a two or three year spell. Yeah.

Not just the most influential and respected band, which they had been. a few years, you know, two decades later, although they broke up, you know, in 20, they broke up this decade. I see no evidence of their existence in pop culture whatsoever. The style of music, their politics, their approach to the media to public image, I don't see it. I would, I hate to say this because I feel like I'm, I don't mean this to sound as incendiary as it does. I think they probably have more in common with the B-52s than you do. to at this point. Wow. Like in terms of their, it's like a band that people deeply love. Yeah.

That obviously had a huge cultural impact. I'm not saying they didn't. But now you just, I don't know that a single person under the age of 30 at the ringer is her, I am. No, and why would they? And what's crazy is like this band that meant so much to so many people, I guess, are just wait. Do you say wow because you think I'm wrong?

No, because you think that's ether. They're just waiting for their crucial sink in Lady Bird 2 to suddenly get the convoy going again, you know? I mean, it is a generational thing, no doubt, and there are bands like, you know, who I love personally and professionally and musically, like Death Cab for Cudy, who continue to think of REM as a foundational. There are people who think of them like the Beatles. I'm not saying that nobody likes them like that. Yeah, but in terms of young people in fandom. Right. So it's, I can't combat your ether.

I would just say that it's not supposed to be. either like I'm trying to diss them. I'm saying like, I just kind of feel that way. I guess what I feel... There's no R.A.M. serious channel. What I feel in retrospect is totally baffled that they were the biggest band in the world at all. I remember being old enough to think that it was crazy that this college rock band that I liked when I was 12 was suddenly a big deal, but I also felt like validating in some way.

And now it just feels like what a weird aberration the 90s were. But I think of that in a lot of aspects of life. Anyway, the question was, what? other major pop cultural figures have left no cultural footprint? I don't have a specific answer about footprint. I'm curious if you do. What this made me think of is that I don't see, another thing that came from the 90s that we both love and continue to love are the works of Paul Thomas Anderson as a filmmaker. Who's Paul Thomas Anderson now? And what I mean is, Paul Thomas Anderson was like a snotty middle fingers up. I'm going to show you how to make movies,

and I am this overflowing cultural stew of my influences, and I love things passionately, and I love them hard, and I love them intensely. And he wrote and he directed it, and he cared a lot and matured into, and again, thanks to the deep pockets of Megan Ellison and Annapurna, has continued to be able to make every few years heavy, profound, fascinating, challenging works

that he is writing and directing, and he's matured. I don't know if that path for a filmmaker exists anymore, and I'm very curious, your thoughts as, well, A, if I'm really, right. But B, why that is, because I'm thinking of people who I am, if not equally excited about, certainly excited about people like Issa Ray, who writes and stars and directs, or Joe Swanberg, who make, you know, he would hate the term, but I guess mumblecore movies, but now is making, has settled in to continuing to work frequently and make these Netflix projects like easy

or win it all. Is the, have the delivery system changed, has ambition changed? I think people get pushed to genre. Right. So I think the genre is reliable work. You'll see somebody like Jeremy Sarnier, who I think is a deeply exciting filmmaker. Okay. But made two features and then signed on to make True Detective Season 3 and then signed off. And then signed off.

There are people like the Safdi brothers who made two really exciting features, heaven knows what and good time, but are now rumored. They have one more crime film coming with Adam Sandler, but about the Diamond Disaster. but about the Diamond District in New York. Crazy. But then are rumored to be making a 48 hours remake with Gerard Carmarcle. So that idea that you could make heart eight and boogie nights and magnolia and develop your own world is increasingly small. I think if, you know, we don't associate the same heaviness with her, but I think that Greta Gerwig has an opportunity to do that.

She's been around for a very long time. She's worked in mumblecore movies. she was written, co-written Noah Baumbach movies, and then she made her first feature and clearly is like, I want to make more movies in the world of Sacramento

in the same way that Paul Thomas Anderson was interested in the Valley and interested in exploring the lives of these people who are outside of the glitz and glamour of Los Angeles, and then has since become more of a historical, you know, historical filmmaker with the master and there will be blood.

I don't know. I don't know that there is, is that path to being the great unifying Tarantino Paul Thomas Anderson O'Tore right now? It just, I think that the delivery systems have changed, the culture has changed certainly, but

it is odd to me, and I would love pushback on this in examples, because there are exciting young filmmakers, certainly, and ones that I definitely don't know about, but the the easy acquiescence of

genre or of large-scale production, you know, the sort of stunted fanboy generation, you know, who'd be one generation later. Because Tarantino and Paul Thomas Anderson are older than us and grew up on some 70s cinema and the popcorn fun of the 80s, no question. But I don't think they hold up the certain Spielberg films, like the first run of Spielberg films and George Lucas films as the holy text. No, I think that they're probably a little more punkish. I think that they are either into B movies or Jonathan Demi movies as that time period should be valued for those movies rather than let's remake Goonies.

And I just think there's something, and the desire to remake Goonies, whether it's Colin Trevor's filmography or Stranger Things, which is a project I have time for. Sure. But that almost the religious aspect of filmmaking, I think, has neutered the, has neutered some of that punk rock spark and excitement that we saw in the 90s. And so it's a different answer to the question because obviously we're talking about Paul Thomas. I said Paul Thomas Anderson, you're right to say Tarantino. Both these people are still working and working at very high level and people are excited about them.

So their cultural footprint exists in that their feet are still walking, but I don't know who's walking behind them. Yeah. Let's wrap it up there. That's fun. All right. Great questions. Thanks, everybody. We'll be back on Thursday to talk succession, sharp objects and glow the

episodes four through six. Yep. Have a great week. Have a great first half of your week, Granskys. We'll see you before the week's over. Today's episode of The Watch was brought to you by Hotel Tonight.

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