The Watch - 'Master of None,' 'Catastrophe,' and 'The Leftovers' Are Brought to You by the Pre-pajama Mafia (Ep. 150)

Episode Date: May 15, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald kick off the pod with a brief discussion about leisurewear (1:00) before diving into the second season of ‘Master of None’ (9:45) and Season 3 of 'Catastrophe,' (22:30) and wondering where the final season of 'The Leftovers' will take us (29:38). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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My name is Chris Ryan. I'm an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio. Anora! It's Andy Greenwald Jeff Skis! Oh, we're going to Italian this week. We're going to do a little bit of Master of None. We're going to do a little bit of, well, probably a lot of leftovers based on last night's roaring episode. Oh, that's a pun.

And we'll also talk a little bit of catastrophe today. We have a couple things we want to address from Jump, though. Yeah. And one is the fact that despite being friends for more than 20 years? Yeah, we're over 20 years now. More than 20 years. We just found out, Andy and I just found out, that we are, both members of a secret brotherhood

called the pre-pajama mafia. Yes. Where, okay, listeners, paint from a picture. Feel free to hit me up on social media because my timeline is so ugly right now after writing about the Warriors and the Spurs that I would love to just get some thoughts.

But here's what Andy and I just found out we both do. Go to work. You get home and you change out of your work attire into a comfortable yet intermediate outfit, like a full other outfit. Like cozy wear. Yeah. So you do the Mr. Rogers, but like the full Mr. Rogers,

not just the cardigan, but you go different pair of pants, different shirts. Maybe some sweats, a tea. Whatever. And then there's the pajamas later on, which for me, you know, is not pajamas per se. It was just like, no, I dress like Tim Hardaway in 1996 to go to sleep. You know?

You're going to have to keep going on that. Keep digging that hole. basketball shorts. Oh. Yeah. You mean his work attire. I recently started getting into doing my shorts like Alexis Sanchez on Arsenal where he like rolls him up.

Do you know that style? Listen. But I didn't know that this was a controversial opinion until my wife started roasting me for it. As does mine. And the more interesting thing here is that our wives have not joined up to Kenny Rogers roast us together. They didn't know.

Here's the thing. First of all, I'd just like to say, welcome to the watcher, the ringers premiere pop culture podcast. Here's the thing. I feel like we can talk about this because we've been doing the show for over five years now. People talk about all types of shit on podcasts. The Ringer Podcast Network now has Larry Willemore talking to Norman Lear. So we can talk about sweatpants.

Yeah, sure. I feel like there's a lane for this. They've got that covered. They've got all the other important stuff covered. They're done. I think this is totally reasonable. Pajamas are for sleeping in. They're not loungeware. What if you have to go out to the car for something?

What if you had to run to the bodega to use my New York self, right? it only makes sense. What is this binary? It has to be either awake or asleep. I reject it. Yeah, I just like the idea of changing into an outfit when I get home where I look like Brett Farf and his Wranglers ad. What else do you do to encourage that look?

Because I feel like that's probably the way I want to really look deep down, but I don't want to go full sweats. The other week, we had Greg Dooley of the Afghan Wigs in here. And you and I have been fans of his work for... As long as we've been friends. as we've been friends, if not longer. And obviously, we were a little bit starstruck, we were a little bit excited. But what we talked about as he left the studio was we were mostly just impressed that this man,

this rock god, was rocking a athlete leisure in the middle of the day. So that's really, so what we're realizing here's, this is aspirational. Yeah, absolutely. All the button downs and crisp button ups and this is all irrelevant. We just want to wear. I just want to dress like a German soccer manager. I want to wear, I want to go home and put on a track suit. This weekend, I did want to say before we get into Mass.

of none because Andy and I both, we dabble in culture not only as our job, but as our passion. But now. And when you do what you love, it's not really work. But people now know what we're wearing when we do it. Yes. I do want to say that what I did do in my Brett Far of Wrangler outfit this weekend was I indulged myself and allowed myself a another rewatch of Michael Man's Heat. The new Blu-ray is out. Yeah. And it has all these like a special, you know, special edition. Bells and whistles. Bells and whistles, like they have the Michael Man, But it's a Pacino-Denero panel talk hosted by Christopher Nolan, who is basically, like, did you know you fathered my whole style? Really?

There's a great Michael Man, Michael Man Q&A. There's a bunch of deleted scenes. There's a bunch of docs. But not unlike Blade Runner, Heat is a movie that is so good-looking that every time they're like, yeah, you want to improve it a little bit? Let's just improve it a little bit. You're like, yes. It's not, because it seems like it just gets deepened and widened and more and more. beautiful and detailed with every restoration and every advance in technology.

For some reason, as a source material, it keeps actually looking better. We were a little bit spoiled because that movie came out when we were seniors in high school. And I walked to the theater twice in a blizzard. I was like, I think this story gets more and more ornate as I get older. I was about to give you that story because we just alluded to being friends for 20 years. We met in 96. One of the first things I knew about you was that you had walked back and forth to like Penn's Landing, right? Riverdale. River, not Riverdale. River, what was the riverfront?

Yeah, the riverfront. Columbus Avenue. Right. So. Boulevard? Columbus, Columbus. You walk to the river, basically, from where you lived by the art museum. In my memory of it, it was multiple, more than two times. To see heat in the theater. Yeah, just twice. You want to print the legend. This is how much this movie meant to you, but this movie, it is, I know him sound like, this is the Stefan review, but this movie literally has everything. Yeah. It has intrigue, gun battles, Val Kilmer's ponytail.

It is such a rich, rich text of a film. And there was a moment when I think I took it for granted because I was like, well, there are always going to be movies like this. Of course you could just get the complete, you could make the Golden State Warriors cast basically of a film and have them do just, just ill, savage shit in a movie for three and a half hours and have it look beautiful. Apparently, you can't do that unless the cast are actually emojis. Yes.

Because that's what we do now with movies. So it's exciting to hear that you've returned to this. I feel like, I mean, I haven't listened to this podcast yet. We've talked to, talk to me about it. Me and Bill's pod? Yeah, we did it a while ago. Was Norman Lear on it? Yeah, it was Norman Lear's cousin Sal.

No, it was, we talked to, we just broke down all the lessons you can learn from heat. Wengro? Is that his name? That was, he's a character in it, yes. Ted Levine? But it's just like, it's an incredible. version it just recently just came out on Friday, I think. That's a character in the film, you know.

It's pretty awesome. I know that you spent some time with the Paramore record. Look, I'm just saying, I love new music. I still love new music. You don't feel that way. I do. I just, it just takes me a while to catch up with everything that's out there. I was going to say, this new Paramore record, we talked about them the other week.

I wasn't really feeling that first single, because it was a little bit bleached blonde-y for me. Because it wasn't on that where the lines overlap-ish. We were throwing it back. But the rest of the record, very nice. Very nice. Little lelting 80s grooves, but you know, Haley's feeling things now. There's a song on there called 26, and it's about, that's a tough year for some people. How does that make you feel? Grandpa? No, but I mean, there's a lot of good music coming out right at this moment. It's very exciting. Maybe we'll throw a playlist up there. I'm completely in love with a band from Australia called Rolling Blackouts Coastal Fever, which is, don't laugh, because you know a band is good when they had two good names for their band and they were like, fuck it, we'll use both. Right.

How do you feel like? What do they sound like? Sound a little bit like a rockabilly go-betweens. Oh, okay. How do you feel about that? That's fine. They're on subpop. I love this record. I love this EP.

How do you feel about Haim? Remember those ladies? How do I feel about Heim? I feel like Heim's good at being Heim. They're so good at doing that. Yeah. Their new song is so good at being a Heim song. I love it.

This woman from San Francisco, Hazel English, has new songs out. Like, there's good music. Bleachers, our boy Jack. Yeah? He's just bringing back souvenirs from Hitzville, USA, man. It's a good time for records. I really like Drake. go by feature.

You just really listen to it. So let me see. You put on your athlete here. You turn off the lights. I listened to a playlist of ACDC that I made that are like, it's like a powerage and highway to hell. Yeah. And for those about to rock.

And then I also listen to Simplesy guitars a lot. Wow. And I listen to a, oh, this is good. Yeah. Because I read an excellent interview with the music supervisor of Master of Nun and Vulture. Oh, yeah. I've been listening to a very long Larry Levan like Paradise Garage playlist. I love that.

So that is the vibe, musical vibe, that they were kind of going for on Master of Nunn. It's a great vibe. An unappreciated vibe. Let me also just say, before we get into talking about Master of Nunn, if we're being totally honest, I mostly just listen to the Moana soundtrack because that's what my life is. Could be worse. Yeah, could be frozen. That's the only other thing we listen to.

Chris, I have one question for you. Yeah. Do you want to build a snowman? No, I want to learn to make pasta. Yes, let's talk about that. I want to be, there are a lot of reasons to watch television shows. Whoa, you're just cranking it back. You can watch television shows because the plot is compelling or the performances are excellent.

And hopefully both in the writing or the dialogue or maybe the world building. But there are some television shows you just want to like spend time with. You want to just jump in. Yeah. And that was actually part of the reason why Billions was so good this year. It was that aside from like all the hilarious dialogue. and machinations of high finance and the Southern District of New York's lawyers.

They just, like, went to restaurants and tried to buy the New York Giants and did very, like, stuff where you're just like, yeah, that's what's up. Try to buy the Giants. Like, this is what you want to do in your Brett Farms where? Sure, yeah.

But what Master of Nunn does, I appreciate the fact all the nods to classic Italian cinema and Woody Allen's classic 70s New York. No one loves classic Italian cinema more than Chris Ryan. And I, there's lots going on, Master of Nunn. But what it mostly has is a really, really inviting vibe. And it cares about the things that I care about, namely pasta and music. Yeah. Yes. And film. Those are three things that I love. I love pasta music and film. You love the show. Yeah. I want to say, I think the

first season of Master Nunn really snuck up on me. Obviously, it was heralded when it came out, and I watched the first few episodes. We talked about it on the podcast. I didn't finish it for a couple weeks, if not a couple months. And when I went back and I saw those last few episodes, they definitely, it called me off guard, because especially that episode near the end mornings, where it tells the whole relationship through the mornings, and it was very ambitious and really successful. And I basically went into the season.

For some reason, I didn't read the reviews, because I sort of, It's interesting. Usually I do because that used to be my job to write them. But also, last summer, I went to the Montreal Comedy Festival and I did a panel with Aziz and El Nyang and Noel. Aziz just did a podcast with Bill on Friday that people should check out. You definitely should check that out. Awesome pod. He didn't really talk about the panel I did in Montreal. But other than that, you know. That part got cut. That part got cut. But the part where Tate biffed, a couple of Watch the Throne references made it, which I appreciate it. No, and it was interesting because, it was interesting for two reasons. One, Aziz truly does dress like that IRL. He was absolutely wearing Italian loafers with no socks and a shirt unbuttoned to that degree.

So respect. Two, I knew that they were going to Italy. They'd just come back from scouting and they were going to Italy. And I said, can I talk to you guys about that? No, exactly. Exactly. This is what I'm getting at. And they said, please don't because we don't want anyone to know anything about this show.

Right. And I really appreciated that. And so I sort of bought into that. This show is very unique for this era, unique to this era. It is not necessarily entirely unique because we are in this new period of completely personal, subjective, autourish television. Especially in that half-hour, dromedy zone. But this is a show about people with strong passions and they're just exploring them. And what we saw, and I only watched the first three, and I only watched the first three,

heard the new season. I can't wait to watch the rest. I've heard the fourth first date is really, really good. I experienced kind of the highs and lows of that ethos in these two episodes. Watch the first episode. This is not a spoiler. I think people know about this. The thief. Yeah. The thief, it is an ode to the bicycle thief and Italian cinema. Z's directed it. It is in black and white. It is very beautiful and ambitious. It says what it's doing right at the beginning when he wakes up in bed and on one bedside table are cookbooks. On the other are DVDs of classic Italian films. It really lets you know what's up. I watched this and I was overjoyed. I thought it was beautiful and it was funny and it was engaging and it was very personal. And it was also just like there was

an element, like when you see, you can see this in sports often. Sometimes you see this when you go to a concert, when you see people and they're just executing on a high level and they know they are and they're having a blast doing it. And that was intoxicating. It was so fun for me to see him do that. And I was so excited because for all the reasons you're saying, like, we get to have a guy like this. We get to have a guy who starts off as kind of a goofy comedian and then just pushes and pushes. And that is what Woody Allen did as well. Yeah. And it's interesting to note, I think Woody Allen was like 40 when he did Annie Hall and Aziz has just turned 34. The flip side of this enthusiasm came in episode two, which is when you see that he's just turned 34 because I thought that the second episode, the other one in Italy, where Eric Warehams character comes and they crash a wedding and they eat a lot of pasta and they can take a lot of boomerang videos. And on their phones was the downside of just doing things that you love because there was no reason for this episode, I thought. I mean, it was cute, but it was really kind of empty in a way that at a certain point bugged me because they fell back on a sort of cutesy, we're just having fun thing, which, look,

more power to them. If I could make a TV show, I would 1,000% go to Italy. I would 1,000% go to Japan to film these things or just hang out with chefs. I mean, they got Massimo Batoro, who was arguably the best chef in the world on the show, which meant they probably got to eat his food while they were shooting it. They very much did. So that's what you should do if you have Netflix's money. But there was a, I don't, I don't even know what to say this, because this is the flip side. When you let someone reach for things, and this is what TV can do better than any other medium, sometimes they're going to fall.

And I thought this was an immature episode of TV. I don't mean to say that to damn the project. I just mean that that's part of what you get. When it didn't really have something to say other than, well, maybe I like being single now and I've moved on a little bit. but you also want to kiss Pene, it's going to be a little bit, I thought it was a little shallow. Here's my counterpoint. And I think that one of the issues here is that not unlike Annie Hall and Manhattan, some of those great Woody Allen movies, Aziz's performance, and this is not taking away anything from his contribution to the show,

which is almost complete with, you know, obviously he has collaborating with Alan Yang and other writers. But he's directing it. He's running it. It's not even that it's weak. It's just that it is not a very emotionally dynamic, no, complex performance, right? So, like, he is a pretty flat performer. He, it feels like he is reading lines at times. You know what I mean?

Like, he's, especially in the more, like, connective, like, the story must move forward parts where he's, like, trying to say, like, I need to go get my bike or my phone or whatever. But, that being said, I thought that the second episode worked because if you take a step back, If there had been a little bit more nuance or a little bit more signaling of this, I think I would be right.

In this case, I just think I might be right. That episode was sort of about, you know, no matter where you are, no matter how beautiful those surroundings are, no matter how great the food you eat, there still can be an emptiness inside of you if you don't feel like you're sharing it with the person you love. And there is a lot of balance and master of none about, like, you know, how much can you get from your life with your friends versus your life with your significant other? and I think the fact that he is in these incredible places, he leaves that restaurant to text Rachel. You know, like he is, there is something where even the best food cannot fill the hole in his heart. Oh!

And I thought it got it that. And I think that the show, Aziz is somebody who likes to be on his phone a lot. Yeah, as I've read from multiple features and seen from his Instagram feed or whatever. He is unlike a lot of comedians that I've interviewed or spent time around. And he makes a great joke about this on Bill's podcast. He is not on unless he's on. When he is officially not on, like not in front of a microphone, he is all the way off if you don't know him.

And respect to him for that. So he spends as much time on his phone as he does being in Modena or being, you know what I mean? Like we see him make pasta once. We see him on his phone 20 times. That is in itself a commentary on the character. and I don't know how self-aware it is or not, and I don't know that even if it really totally matters. But I think that there is something that is a little critical of itself

and is like this is the sort of emotional vacancy happening in this character because he's tried to fill his life with these things that ultimately maybe don't satisfy. That is there, and that is important to note. What I think is it's not considered yet, and that's okay. I mean, I want to step back and be clear that one of the reasons I love TV, I think that you do too, especially in this era, is that we can see warts in all. we see the process. It's fun to be a fan of... I also like it because I get to go pre-Pajama when I'm watching TV.

You're just happy at that moment. But if I go to the movies, I got to go full day. Full day. It's a really crucial point. That's probably why TV's so popular. Yeah. We should tell our wives that. One of the great things about watching an artist develop is that you get to see them warts and all develop, right? You get to see them take swings and miss. And that's fun when you're watching the career of a musician. It's fun. It's fun with comedians. And it's fun, especially now, watching them as television artists, because that is a thing that didn't use to exist.

I think that one of my frustrations about Master of Nunn is, in some ways, not really legitimate frustration, or it's a impatient frustration, because I'm so impressed with what Aziz is doing, and Alan Yang, like, what the opportunity, the way they've taken hold of this opportunity and what they're using it for, what interests them. You know, in the interview with Bill, Aziz talks about how he's taking these hiatuses and he's, he really did move to Italy for three months to learn how to make pasta. He moved to Tokyo for three months. He did crash language courses. Can he go to Japan to learn how to make pizza? No, he just ate a lot of pizza there. And then Bill kept harping on it. Is pizza good in Japan?

Everything is good in Japan. All the food is perfect. They're just, they're the best at everything. That is a full declarative statement. I would love to have the ringer send me there to just back it up. I'm just going to put that out into the ether. No, not that's going to be a hard note. Yeah. It's worth a shot. you know, he does these crash language courses and he learned some Italian. Like, he really cares about this stuff. And we're seeing him chase his passions. Yeah.

But I don't know if he is fully, and he would, I feel like no one would want this to be. I don't think he's fully realized who he is as an artist yet. We're seeing him midway. You know, by the time Woody Allen made Annie Hall, he was older. He had had more relationship experience. And he was like, and it was the synthesis of the comedy he had been making, this strain of melancholy that it had always existed in it, with something to say. What's interesting about Master of None, because he's made 20 of these now, 20 episodes,

and each one is very distinct, which is another thing I appreciate about it, is that sometimes he and Alan have something to say. Sometimes they try to say something, and they don't quite make it, and some other times they don't, you know, it's just a comedy. That's all that, that's what it should be, but I do notice that in the early going, sometimes they bump up against something pretty profound or interesting, and then they back away, because, you know, which is appropriate for a, younger people, I think. And for anyone trying to make art, it's scary to, like, go all the way in

and say something. But sometimes the main emotional takeaway from the show, and again, not every comedy needs a main emotional takeaway. This is already in rarefied air to be having a conversation. It's funny that we're even talking about it in those terms. Yeah. But if the takeaway is, well, maybe they're on their phones too much. They're on their phones a lot. Or they're not questioning that the phones are so much a part of it because the attitude is, well, we're just sort of taking our reality and putting it on screen. The religion episode has a, pretty nice build to it

and the last beat with his mother is really, with his mother is really strong. But when it comes, there are moments when it could hit harder and it just sort of, it shrugs. It does a kind of stand-up

what-me-worry kind of thing about it. Yeah. Or it's, I think it's a show that, you know, we'll grapple with very, with pretty serious subjects, but also never want to lose sight of the food truck.

You know, it always wants, yeah. It always wants to kind of get back to like the core kind of like, pleasures in life. And I appreciate it for that because TV is a pleasure in life. And sometimes, it's just kind of interesting to think about the- It's nice not to be on the sex boat. To think about the way the show is being considered, we really are in an Autour era where the differences between

Louis, Atlanta, Master of Nunn, really, I think you can say are the differences on a human level, or not, that's not fair, on an artistic level between Louis C.K., Donald Glover, and Aziz. Okay, so I think then I want to talk about the leftovers, but I feel like, catastrophe slides really well into this conversation. Slide it in. Because it's another show that I really enjoy just watching for the real estate and the jokes, the bans. Sure. And then there is like an underlying very kind of dark and at times like teetering off the edge of stability to it.

You know, because like these are two people who are kind of not supposed to be together but have decided to be together. and now they have two children, and now they are, you know, like holding on to their sobriety and their, you know, and their family and whether or not monogamy and all these other things. And I find myself, I mean, I think catastrophe is great, but I do find myself enjoying it the most when it is banter between Rob and Sharon. They're so good. Yeah. They're really. What do you think about the other chambers? to borrow Wu-Tangism.

It's, this is actually, it fits in with our conversation about the leftovers too, which to be a fan of TV now means to really requires you

to embrace something that I think runs against some impulse that we all have, which is anti-perfectionism. You know, TV has never been perfect, but now that we're treating it like the way we would treat cinema,

you know, we expect a more thoughtful, considered perfect, smoothly perfect kind of thing. You know, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I joked that I was listening to a lot of Moana and stuff. But, like, now I am watching these Disney movies, do my children. And they are gleaming perfect boxes. Like, it's amazing how the Pixar, you know, those aren't Pixar movies, but John Lasseter from Pixar brought his storytelling.

And it's like, there are no rough edges. It's just, it's incredible. They should be hung in a museum, and I don't even always mean that as a compliment. But TV is not that now. TV has always been messy, but now it has artistic aspirations. And so you sort of have to accept that. And so it's a love catastrophe, which I do, and we're talking about, you know, the third season is on Amazon now. There have always been these things that are just, that have jarred.

There are moments where it's like, this is, I've never seen two people talk like this on TV and oh, my God, it's so funny and it's so cutting at the same time. They're totally unique. And then it has the side characters. And you're like, well, that's a little broad. Like the friend who has the drug problem. Yeah. Oh, that doesn't quite fit. We sort of have to accept that now.

And it, even though I would write articles for Granlan saying, this is what we. have to accept. I still sort of rebel against it internally sometimes, and I feel you. I think that you know, that it's baked in, especially to a show like catastrophe, everything being a mess is kind of baked in so that these moments of transcendence are the, are the surprise, are the surprise, almost. Yeah. It's a weird, for a show that I was so excited to have to come back because I love hearing them talk and joke. It can be a rough watch. Yeah. What it's doing this season, and I'm halfway through. What it's doing with Rob sobriety is pretty wild.

Because any other show, that is the show. That's the story, right? But at least through the first half of season three, it's just quietly happening in the background. Yeah, and you're so... And you're so... And you're so invested in them that you're like, every time they don't mention it,

your brain, you're like... Yeah, when she's like, you smell of chips and you're like, you know that he's rubbed it all over himself to distract from the... But in the moment before she says that, your animal brain is like, well, they haven't referenced it in a while. maybe it's over.

Yeah, right. As if... Like, maybe this is a different kind of show that just drops plot lines. Yeah, exactly. Like, maybe he got better and they wouldn't use that for plot. Like, you forget that you're watching a TV show.

It can really yank at you. I mean, it's very interesting. So much of our conversation these days about all these shows is that... Is this idea of TV is not comforting us? Even though we always keep saying, oh, we want to put on our cozyware. Or there's like tons of television

we could be talking about that would be comforting. Like Cupcake Battle. We could just talk about... Hosted by Death. Superstore every week. and, you know, or whatever. Like, it's... People like Superstore.

Yeah, I think so. They like it, right? It's fine. Have you ever watched it? Yes. Really? Yeah. What do you have to say about it?

It's very comforting. Okay. Yeah. Let's talk about something that is not that comforting, which is the leftovers after this week, but we'll do that after we hear from our sponsors. This episode of The Watch is brought to you by the new Showtime Limited event series, Twin Peaks. What's up with that?

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Find your stuff. We are back. Let's talk a little bit about the sex boat. And the leftovers. The sex lion. Lion! I want you to start. I'm still trying to articulate my feelings about this.

But what you have to deal with when you're talking about, especially these last few episodes, of the leftovers, which we thought tonight was five. There are eight. Is the fact that the scrutiny is going to be kind of ramped up a little bit, and I think people are going to start talking about endings a little bit more, and you're also going to get Damon Lindeloff, who was nice enough to come on our podcast and talk a lot about this season. He's been talking a little bit more.

There was an interview on Vulture last night with Matt Zillersites. More than an interview. Yeah, quite a... A bloodletting. Quite an exchange, yeah, which you can detail. And so I think that the way we talk about the show and the show, the way that people understand and view the show is going to change it from now going forward, right? Because these are the closing arguments. Yes, and it's interesting that, I mean, this is a show that the show is about struggling with and maybe rejecting narrative, despite the fact that that's what TV does.

That's what religion does. You know, you want to put a bow on it. You want their deal. be a god telling you it's okay. You want there to be a story. I don't know that there's a story here anymore. Not in a bad way. I just don't know that there is a single story that is being told. I mean, I suppose it is the fate of Kevin Garvey or the family or the fate of the world after this happened. It could be any of those things, you know, and that's something that is so exhilarating. We sort of talked about this briefly when we spoke to Damon this time and when I spoke to him last year.

Season 2 ended with an ending, and then there's, what do you do next? There's always a little bit more, you know, that you could play with. And eight episodes, as it turns out, not very much time to do it. Hard to talk about this week's episode without talking about last weeks, and we didn't refer, we didn't get to it last week. Last week's episode was Good Day Melbourne, and that was the Nora and Kevin Goat Australia, and then completely fall apart. I struggled with that episode. I didn't love it. I didn't love it because it times it felt. like a lot of work. And dovetailing very neatly with our conversation a moment ago about accepting the bad with

the good and the sort of the glorious mess of a tour-driven TV, these two weeks of the leftovers had that in common in that it's still TV, they're still moving pieces, right? And so you have to get the chess pieces in the right place. And he had to get Kevin and Nora to Australia, and you also had to break them up. and, or you didn't have to, but that was the story they wanted to tell. That seemed like... Well, obviously, also with the flash forward in the first episode of this season, Nora, or at least somebody who looks like her, yeah, was her.

Doesn't know who Kevin is. Or claims not to. Pretending not to, yeah. So you had to make good on that. And so what I felt was there was a lot of work and a lot of smart people putting in a lot of effort towards accomplishing those goals. And in the pursuit of those goals, there were some pretty spectacular moments. the Kevin

completely losing it with the hallucination of Evie the scene of Nora this is all last week basically answering one question wrong and then losing her chance at whatever it was she was chasing

just the idea again I've said before the show is so brilliant with its choices the idea of her being handed a baby right before getting on the bus I mean it's excruciating and so pointed and exact and right for that moment

but at the end of last week's episode I think left me feeling like a little bit exhausted not necessarily in a moved way like boy that was just a lot of lifting this week was I think a far superior episode it fucked me up in the way

only the leftovers does which is it leaves me kind of spiritually exhausted narratively thrilled and exhilarated and also it drives me mad a little bit I mean, that was, the ratios are all changed.

The first season just left me mad for many of these reasons, but it was still the same show. And to start this episode, like, okay, well, we have to get more people to Australia. But first, we have to have a naked Frenchman cause a nuclear event into this beautiful, bizarre, very nude set piece. And then, but then we have to get them there. Well, how are we going to get them there? Well, Matt knows a guy who can fly a cargo plane nonstop from Texas to Australia on a moment's notice. It's like at that moment, much like religion. See, this is why it all works, I think.

Much like religion, you're either in or you're out. You're either buying this story or you're not. And if you're one of the people, who I briefly was who was just like, who's this guy? He's going to fly him where? Then if you're out, okay, you're out, but then you miss the rest of the story. Right. So you have to buy in. This episode, much like all the Matt episodes, there was the one in the first season where he gambles the money and, you know, and you know he's going to lose the money.

There's the second season, one where he has to get Mary back into the town, and he can't get her back into the town. I've struggled with the mad episodes more than any of the other character episodes, I think, because they have felt the most roller coastery to me. Like there's this construction you know he's going to get punched in the stomach at some point. This season, I think, this one last night's was the most clever about it because he literally was punched in the stomach. And so it seemed to be aware of its absurdity. We also had Kevin Carroll just making those faces at him every time he checked back in with him or Amy Brennaman, who, by the way, fits in very well on a lion's sex boat.

I mean, she really looked like she had, like, dressed, she was just ready for that boat. And it, so all this is to say, I wasn't sure, I was pushed, I was pulled by it, and then we get to this moment where he's having this conversation with Bill Camp who claims to be God.

And then Matt decides to have the conversation with him as if he is God. And it's incredibly effective, it's incredibly smart choice, it's totally disorienting and destabilizing. And that character has popped up a couple of times over the course of the series. And again, in the way that the show is pulling off this amazing thing, where it works on numerous levels, Bill Camp, who we all remember from the night of.

Detective Buck. Somehow can do with this incredible Australian accent. And he appeared twice in Kevin's afterlife. So maybe he is God. Who knows? I love that kind of thing. You didn't need to know that. You didn't need to remember he was that guy, but you could.

And then also, I think, if I remember correctly, the guy in the pillar in... In Miracle. A guy who just died. He gives to John to say, like, give this to Burton? to Burton. Whoa, really? Yeah, that was in Sepulal. They had a screenshot of that.

I didn't realize that. But what does that mean? But here's the thing. It is a show about belief and how much we're willing to trust stories. And here's the thing. Here's the last thing I want to say before I cede the floor to you about this.

I don't, I would be hard-pressed to remember a more perfect ending to an hour of television than this episode. God gets fucking eaten by a lion and Christopher Eccles said, God bless him. It was all worth it, his run on the show. I think it was bumpy. He was in upstate New York.

Then he was nude in Texas. And now he was on a boat in Tasmania. All worth it for his reading of, that's the guy I was telling you about. That was a kind of, there's a purity to that. That I feel like anyone who is writing creatively is chasing that. That, literally that line reading, that line, and that out on an episode.

It was beautiful. I think we've talked before about how this series season feels like a collection of short stories rather than a interlocking traditional television narrative perhaps now in these last few episodes now that every all the primary characters are in Australia it'll feel a little bit different than that people sometimes mistake I know that I do saying oh it's like a collection of short stories for it's a it's a series of chapters and it's really not these stories actually don't really feel like they have all that much to do with each other. There are parts of it that tie up or untie loose ends, you know, from the first two seasons of the show. And we see glimpses of this wider world, of scientists who may be engaging in, you know, a con, who are trying to build this portal into another dimension to go be examined.

And each time you get to the end of these episodes typically, what you find out is that you may have been victim of a ruse, but that ruse also may have been true. So those scientists are like, we can send you there, but there is a very good chance that when you get there, what there is is in fact oblivion. Floating in space, you're dead. And just like the Burton character is like,

I am God, but I am a much more droll, ironic figure than the one that I've been portrayed to be over the years. And if you believe in me, you know, do it at your own, don't do it because of my judgment. Do it because it's what you want to do. And these sort of like essays that happen that thematically arrive at the similar point. But I do think that, and I think I'm transmitting the frustrations of other people I know who are watching this show is that, all these metaphors and all these fables and all these allegories are actually, while interesting,

not getting anywhere, when actually the second season did a lot of work to take us somewhere. And it's not that it's undoing what was good about the second season because I still happily watched the show and enjoy it. And, you know, you can't make what happened last night unless you're incredibly good at making television. It was fascinating, I thought. but I also think that you're ending show,

you're ending an episode on a punchline. And you are then leaving it up to, I mean, we say every time, leftovers is about madness. Leftovers is about faith or belief. But that's just because we say so. I don't even know, like it, it sometimes feels like we're just doing

like a book report about a book that's not really there. I, the reason I'm sad the show is, is ending, which I didn't realize I was, honestly, because the whole thing felt like, it's like a cosmic joke too. I mean, I hated it, and then I got trolled by it, and I got drawn back in, and now I just find it pretty exceptional.

But I think I am sad about it, not because there's any narrative story that I want more of. I don't really need more Nora Durst. It's fine. I get it. I mean, there's more to come, but I feel at peace with this performance. But what I'm saying is, this show has done something that few shows do.

It is touching a third rail of emotional storytelling. It is essentially not a show about these characters anymore so much as it is a show about the stories we tell ourselves and how they operate in the world. And the idea of grieving as a story that we tell ourselves

and role we play. All we want is someone to give us the lines. You know what I mean? We want the instructions. I agree with you, but there is still a countdown to this second coming and there are still all the signifiers of like will they

achieve their quest. Will this happen or not? That's why the degree of difficulty is just unimaginable here because exactly that. To me, the appropriate ending of the leftovers is a rye joke like what Matt delivered

at the end of the episode. That would feel totally appropriate. I don't know that that would have been the jokes in the second season. I think that's the joke of this season. I felt like the second season had a sort of kind of catharsis and an idea behind it

about family that made sense to me with the characters that were in it. It also had specific objectives such as Kevin was being haunted by Ann Dowd. What was he going to do about that? You know, that was a plot and that gave them a trajectory.

This isn't necessarily, that's not really there anymore. It's really more about what happens afterwards, which is really what the show has always been about on a macro level. I'm just really, I just still get undone and haunted by this thing of, you know, last week, Lori, who is a therapist, who exists in this world, who sees what's

happening around her, and the story she still holds on to is one of unvarnished, unflinching scientific truth. And her truth is about he's having a manic episode, and he needs to be spoken to us if he's having this manic episode. And she talks to him a certain way, and everyone treats him a certain way, and listens to her a certain way. All these stories that everyone carries overlap. They're all kind of true, and they're all kind of bullshit.

it. And in admitting that, the show is also admitting the kind of void that lurks behind all of these stories. So that the, so that, you know, the flip from Kevin seeing Evie to seeing the actual person, the flip from Matt talking to a crazy lunatic on a boat to talking to God, it's kind of the same thing. Yeah. The amount of thoughtfulness and consideration and artfulness to even get to this point we're vibing off that. Yes, that's right. That makes sense to me. That's pretty exceptional.

And the other layer of interestingness to put onto this, or is worthy of conversation, I think, is the conversation with Matt Sites he referenced because what came out after the episode aired last night was that Damon had said to Matt Sites, Matt Sites is the really excellent TV critic for New York Magazine and Vulture, that this episode was in many ways inspired by him.

and this was, I'm sure, as totally bizarre and unsettling to Matt as it was when he said that our podcast inspired the opening of season two. It also led to a much deeper catharsis in this conversation than we had to probably with Damon because he was just literally fucking with us as opposed to trying to chase something. And I really recommend people to read this because it is really insightful just in terms of compassion and art. And also how we take influence because basically Damon was saying, you know, You, Matt Sites, you are a fan of the show. You made a compelling argument for the show. You have written very forcefully as to why the Matt James and episodes matter to you, and that mattered to me. But he also said to Matt Sites, you know, I've read your personal essays about losing your wife.

And Matt Sites' wife died suddenly and tragically young 11 years ago. And Matt's written pieces about that. And what was amazing about this is they've never spoken about that. Damon doesn't know the details of this, but he was inspired by how it made him feel. So there's this weird like whisper down the lane thing that other people's lives can give us that was implicit in this. Now, I guess the potential pushback is, you know, Damon, Damon loves to share. He's very emotionally available as people who have spoken to him or heard him on podcasts now. Leaving Twitter is probably a good idea for him.

And yet, you can't pull away. And so I think there might be some people who could read this long, long, long thing and be like, well, this is now I know too much. This is too much transparency, right, behind how this was made and didn't leave me in this place of my own subjective emotional reaction to the episode. Is that fair to say? Yeah, I think that it's a bracing interview to read. It's a bracing conversation. But when I started reading it, I was like, my thoughts on this show don't really stack up here. You know what I mean? Like my, it's interesting in this time where, like, we have so much access to people who are creative or the people who are, or writing about shows, have influence on the shows where, you know, you know that there is this two-way conversation happening, that that sometimes kind of can assume the role of that.

That's, for me, that's like that conversation is the conversation people should reference when they're talking about this episode, because that's the creator of the show talking about the person who inspired the show. So what we're saying is that we're watching this as viewers, right? It was a very 2017 thing to happen to sort of feel like, oh, well, I guess that's what that was about. Having been, you know, in a minor way on both sides of this, what I would say is, I mean, having spent a lot of time thinking about shows writing about them, like Matt Sites did, and then now trying to write before them. One of the reasons why showrunners in this day and age are very engaged with and responsive to critics is because, because they're the only two people thinking about it this much.

People watch TV in their cozy wear, you know, in their Brett Favware, and they have their experience and it's engaged or it's not, and it depends on the day they had or the, you know, the thread count of the sweatpants they're wearing or whatever, and they move on to next week or to Master of None or to, you know, Samurai Gourmet or whatever else is on their DVR. And every inch of every show being made, certainly for, I mean, you could say this about anything,

but particularly for cable or streaming in this era is just sweat it over. The most minute degree. You know, everything. There really aren't throwaway moments, even if you never reference them. So to have spent all this time in a room dying over something,

and then you read something where someone was like, I'm going to think about this. I'm going to tease out something. Also, you feel heard. I can only imagine what it's like for people who sweat over something to the degree Damon did over the leftovers over a year and a half of their life, and then it just gets put out there.

And it gets put out there, and then people are watching Master of Nun and excited for Twin Peaks. And they're talking about the leftovers too. But to have someone be like, I hear you and I'm ready to have this conversation with you. The truth is the showrunners and writers, they're like, bet, like, we've been waiting to have this conversation with someone in public for a year.

Yeah. So I don't think it takes over. I don't think that should be the defining version of it. Everyone's own interaction with it. I'm not trying to sound like, well, you robbed me of my agency to have an opinion about this episode. I think it was more that

I'm trying to piece together what this show means to me, and that was a moment where I was like, well, maybe it's not really for me. Which I think is part of this unique experiment of the leftovers. I have never been angrier about a show in recent.

in times than I was about season one. You know, it made me furious. I didn't dislike it and ignore it. I viscerally hated it, you know, and wrote as much. Then it touched something else in me, and I loved it. And now I'm, you know, that is what the show is. That's the role it plays in the landscape. And that is what makes it totally unique, I think.

And I'm fascinated by the experience Damon had with, you know, Patrick Somerville and Carly Ray and all these other really talented people who passed through that room. What they were, what every day going to work was like playing in this really hinky sandbox, you know? Other, I mean, it's a lot, I think it would be a lot easier in some ways or less traumatic in some ways to be like, maybe I'm on my phone too much

and I really like pasta. I'm not saying that's a lesser project. I'm saying that is an equally worthwhile project and, you know, God blesses everyone that we get to watch both. Thursday, we have a special guest joining us and we'll also preview Twin Peaks. Then Monday, obviously, we will watch.

We'll be talking about the first episode of Twin Peaks in how many years? 26 years? 26 years? Chris, like, you're going to hear this on Thursday, people who listen to the show. This is, this is my rosebud man. So you're definitely going to watch. This is my, dude, this is my little sled.

Do you understand this? I've never loved anything. Are you a little bit nervous? I can't believe this. I just can't believe it. And it just feels like a crazy insane gift that it's just going to exist. And it doesn't matter. Like, I was okay, not having more.

I made it 26 fucking years. you know, but David Lynch made more. And it would be different if it was a more cynical reboot. But David Lynch and Mark Frost were like, okay, we'll do more. We'll do nine. No, we'll do 18 more hours of this. Who even knows what this is? Like, someone said this best.

Like, I think Volture ran a piece like, these nine questions better get answered. Fuck off. Seriously. I don't care, you know? Like, this is a show that I've loved more than any other show in which a major character, her fate was that she was trapped in a wooden doorknob, okay? People don't remember that. But that happened to Josie Packard. So,

whatever. Bring me more doorks. Wait, the lumber lady? Yeah, man. I loved her. She was so scared. Was that season two? Yeah, she was so scared at the site of Killer Bob. Her spirit left her body and went into a wooden doorknob where she screamed. Damn. Like, spoiler alert, but you know what I mean? Who cares? This is everything, man. I can't wait. Well, we'll be talking about Twin Peaks, maybe a little leftovers depending on what happens in that episode and uh covenant alien covenant which i've seen yep and Andy has not seen but even if Andy doesn't see maybe we'll have somebody come by it you can just chat about that for a while just tell me about it okay great job bransky today's episode of the watch was brought to you by tile protect the things you use most with tile

the convenient tiny Bluetooth tracker simply attach tile to anything you don't want to lose from your keys to your wallet even your bike then use the free tile app to locate your missing items Now, get free shipping and save 30% per tile on a multi-pack for a limited time, and you get a free gift box. Go to gettile.com slash watch. That's get tile.com slash watch. Today's episode of The Watch was also brought to you by Twin Peaks 25 years ago. Twin Peaks was a pop culture phenomenon that captivated America, and it changed TV forever. Everyone was asking, who killed Laura Palmer?

And starting May 21st, the story continues in the new Showtime Limited Event Series, Twin Peaks, directed by David. David Lynch. Kyle McLaughlin returns as FBI Special Agent Dale Cooper, along with more original cast members in their unforgettable roles. Twin Peaks premieres May 21st at 9, only on Showtime. Download the Showtime app and start your free trial now.