The Watch - Michaela Coel in the MCU, 'Donda' Musings, 'Ted Lasso,' and 'The White Lotus' Episode 3

Episode Date: July 26, 2021

Chris and Andy catch up on some things they missed during their week off, including news that Michaela Coel will be in 'Black Panther 2' (2:17) and Kanye West taking up residency in Atlanta's Mercedes-Benz stadium as he finishes up his forthcoming album 'Donda' (20:59). Then they cover the premiere of 'Ted Lasso' Season 2 (33:59) and the third episode of 'The White Lotus' (43:25). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line, do not disturb. It's Andy Greenwald. First of all, Chris, great to see you. Happy summer to everyone. I hope everyone enjoyed their week off. I know we did.

I just want to let you know because Chris, you are a sports and culture blogger and podcaster. that there's a famous playoff matchup that's known. People who watch The Last Dance know this. It's known as the flu game. And it's the game, as we learned in The Last Dance, maybe it wasn't the flu. Maybe someone tampered with MJ's pizza. But the point is, Michael Jordan was not feeling well,

and no one knew what was going to happen, and he gutted out a legendary victory. This podcast that we're recording on Monday morning with no producerial supervision, because we're letting Kyya sleep in because our schedule is. is here, though. Oh, Kaya's going to fix all the mistakes, and we love her for it.

I just mean that she's not minding the store, so we have to be on our P's and Q's. This podcast, Chris, is the Pinocchio game. Because right now, I am talking to you sitting on the floor of a Philadelphia hotel room while my children are on an iPad on the other side of that door watching a movie. Who even knows what? This could go either way. And I only, I said to you when we started. watching like body double. That's fine.

I think young Kathleen Turner is a revelation. Oh, that's body heat. I'm sorry. I'd rather than watch that. I guess that the first thing I said was, I'm glad that we're not doing video right now because this is a little abject. But if and when they both burst in the door

like the Korean family did in that famous BBC clip, I think it would be a worthwhile moment. So anyway, we're all in strange circumstances. in summer 2021, but we're ready to podcast. Yeah, Andy and I had a little week off there. And, you know, people would think probably it's a week off of work. But it's not really a week off of the soul of podcasting. So I've been traversing the mid coast.

I've been up in Maine and just like kicking in the door to salty seashacks and just asking people what they thought about the end of the bureau, you know, and just seeing what they think, seeing what Camden, Maine, I was at a bar briefly last night called Cuzzies in Camden. And just being like, what do you guys think of Lassau season two? You know, what do you guys think of White Lotus Ept 3? And they were like, we're waiting for you. So that's what we're going to talk about today. I thought they were going to be waiting for the North Water.

I feel like you've misjudged and misread the room. Yeah. So obviously, Andy and I are a little bit behind out. We want to get to Northwater, maybe at the end of this week. We have a bunch of shows coming up that we want to talk about the chair, the new Sandra O's show, written by Amanda Pete. It's very exciting on Netflix, Nine Perfect Strangers on Hulu. a bunch of stuff on the way,

but we have two shows, one running and one that just aired. Andy, first I wanted to run through some pop culture headlines that we've missed. Now, the funny thing, on a day-to-day basis

when I talk to you, and let's say you and I are both, quote-unquote, working on like a Tuesday in America. Sure. The text message thread, we got it back, going back and forth,

here's this observation, oh, did you see this article about comic book writers not getting paid enough? Like, that's a topic, blah, blah, blah. But, like, if you're not professionally obligated,

it to follow it, I get the impression you and I might have missed like 35 stories over the last week or so. Do you know what I mean? Like that would have been noteworthy, but like I kind of looked through a list of deadline and vulture and trade stories. And I was like, oh yeah, right. Michaela Cole, cast in Black Panther too. Like that's notable. Culture never sleeps. But when you don't follow it on like an hour to hour basis, it kind of like, it shrinks it a little bit and what's important, right? So I have a couple of things here. Michaela Cole being one of them that I thought we could talk about. You know, over the years, I think I've sounded a little bit like Allen Ginsberg when it comes to like really talented

people getting sucked up by the superhero industrial complex. But I can't lie, this sounds pretty cool. Yeah, it's fantastic. I mean, I think that, first of all, we love Michaela Cole. She made the best TV show of last year, and I May Destroy You. She is a just rocket ship of talent. And I think what's thrilling about it is not just the chance to see her shine on a brighter stage. But for me, this kind of, obviously everyone's excited and a little bit, not anxious, but saddened by what Black Panther 2 is going to be that's going to exist, but obviously without the Black Panther himself, without Chadwick Bozeman.

but it affirms something that I've carried with me, and I think the movie's much more devoted fans have carried with them since it was released all through the terrible news of the last year, which is that this movie was never about one person. It is, and it did become kind of a movement. And we saw it not just when the movie was greeted rapturously around the world, but when the cast and crew and Ryan Coogler, the director, were doing their kind of award show circuit

and just the tightness of this group and the celebratory nature of it and just the vibrancy of the community and bringing in more incandescent black talent into this Wakandan family is kind of thrilling and speaks to what Kugler and his team have built and also what this movie franchise means. And it means something more than, you know, the MCU phase five. It does. And I'm not sure what other MCU projects have transcended in that way. And it's kind of exciting to think about. Yeah, I was, I think, I haven't, there's no skepticism.

There was a part of me that was like, I could totally see them saying like, you know what, this just doesn't feel right, you know, at some point. You mean making the movie? Yeah, just making the movie in general. And I think that honestly, for all the House of Cards, House of Cards implies that it could fall down, for the elaborate construction of the cinematic universe of Marvel that they've got going over there, if all parties involved were like something is just not right about doing, something very obviously is not right about doing this without Bozeman.

I think they could have, you know, smoothed that over. And in terms of like the larger storytelling, but it is really, I'm so excited to see what they do to not only address his absence and the loss of him as a person, but to sort of figure out what the story is behind, you know, what his character's sort of absence will be in the movie itself. And she's just like, you know, I think maybe, I work. worry about like I'm getting softer or I'm getting like a little bit like my standards aren't like as high like you know I think I'm old enough and we're all like professional enough to

recognize that like being in one movie does not necessarily like take up the rest like next five years of your life like Michael Cole could work for six weeks on Black Panther she could work for two years on it she's going to do a lot of amazing stuff it could be two weeks in Atlanta but first all Chris you're selling yourself short if you really are walking into Cuzzies and asking about a French drama series. You are not soft. I pull up a bar still and I'm just like Netflix's earnings, man. Not sure. Not sure. I bet Reed is sweating it. Yeah, I agree. I mean, the thing that is endlessly fascinating to me about Marvel is how mutable it is. There was a world where they could have pulled the plug on the movie and all of these characters and actors would have continued to work

and populated the larger Marvel universe, as we've seen, you know, with Florence Casamba was in Falcon Winter Soldier. I mean, all of these actors and characters have as bright a future as they want to have in the larger project. And that would have been fine. But what they did and what Coogler did, which honestly, in my mind, has only grown an estimation since, as we've seen other good to almost great projects, but nothing totally eclipse the culture the way Black Panther did. They deserved another go-round. They deserve a celebration. they deserve a victory lap and a very, you know, public, homegoing, I guess is the only word. I don't want to say funeral for the character, if not the actor himself.

So it's cool. They still know what they're doing. It's exciting. Did you, you wound up watching Black Widow. We talked about that a little bit. Yes. We talked about that a little bit last time on the podcast. And, you know, I think when you get taking a couple steps back from like, despite COVID everything,

like where Marvel is at right now with the three shows and Black Widow and where you're kind of leads us or lands us, you do really kind of like, just kind of like, I was going to say Marvel app, but you tip your cap to like the sort of, um, the way they've navigated,

obviously a really complicated, release scheduled due to the pandemic, but also like story wise where they're set up because there are some obvious hints about where things are going. But then you also have like, you know, this sort of dual track storytelling, both on,

on plus, but also in the theaters. And then, speaking of Black Panther, you see stories like Michael B. Jordan is developing a Black Superman show for HBO Max, which is not the same thing as the Black Superman movie that J.J. Abrams and Tana Hazie Coates are developing for Warner Brothers. And I know that there's all this stuff with, like, Earth 2

and various, like, multiverses in the D.C. world, which is going to be weird if both of those. those things are doing multiverse at the same time. And I think a lot of that stuff comes out of Flash. But it is, I would love to have this conversation in three years and be like, which one worked and did, or did both work? This kind of like, everything all of the time, there can be two Batman's and three Jokers and four different Gotham stories, two Black Superman's. Like, however, whatever they want to do with this and throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks, versus this like every single thing is vetted and precise

and it's going to happen in the time it needs to happen and the casting is immaculate and yada yada yada. I think there's two things to say when talking about this. One is, and this is just my 10,000 foot view, Marvel and you're sitting on the floor, so you're not really giving me a 10,000. That's true, but I've not yet told people how tall this building is.

That's right. Coming to you live from Stark Tower, both DC and Marvel are all in on multiverse and multiversal storytelling. My impression is that they are still, however, staying true to what their corporate identities have become, which means DC became multiversal, not necessarily by choice, but because nothing was working and they had too much stuff, and there was no centralized office of content. So they were making TV shows and movies

and then multiple movies, et cetera, et cetera. It worked for them, as we've said many times on the show. People can handle there being multiple jokers at once. And so that's worked for them and they're going to continue to develop that. What Marvel's doing is a little bit trickier because I do think that while they are really letting it fly by, you know, with multiple Spider-Men

about to emerge onto the screen later this. year, it does seem like they are still doing this as a phase of storytelling. This is an Infinity War style exercise in multiversal storytelling that will open up a lot of possibilities in the future, but I think that it's still important to Kevin Feigy and the overall Marvel project for their to be stakes here and there to be an end to it, whether it's the final defeat of Jonathan Majors, Kang, or whatever, wherever we're headed. So I do think that that's, I think the project is slightly different, and it may make it harder for DC to, to, try to walk it back a little bit if something catches fire again.

Like, we are going to do another Justice League, but this time this flash matters, I don't know if that... Right. I don't quite know how they're going to make that work. The other thing I wanted to say about this, though, is if I were... And again, I haven't seen the show yet, and I haven't been to Maine, been to Maine like you. But were I in the shipbuilding business? I would not hire anyone at Warner Media slash Discovery Warner or whatever.

ending up being called now, to do the finish on the boats. Because that is a leaky enterprise. Because there's just too much talk coming out of there? Or because they just like... Yes, I have to think. And again, I'm just throwing mind darts here. So from 10,000 feet. So look out below. I think it's almost a strategy at this point. Because one of the things that we keep coming back to is we are in for some major infinity wars in terms of streaming service. services because, you know, just to repeat myself, you have Apple and Amazon, the two richest companies in the world. And then the competitors against the two richest companies in the world are Disney and Netflix. Everyone else is looking up at them. And that is a lot higher than 10,000

feet. And the only way to compete really, you know, especially when it's apples and oranges and chainsaws comparing viewership numbers from streaming services is shareholder value and data, right? And so Warner Media, I think, has to just keep stuff out there, keep things afloat, testing the market, flooding the market, letting people know all the stuff it has, considering what a jump these other companies had on them. And so I feel like that's partly why we keep hearing about not just, as you said, one interesting and intriguing Black Superman project with Tana Hasse Cotes behind it, but now Michael B. Jordan is making one. That's why we don't just hear about House of the Dragon, the Game of Thrones prequel that's coming out. next year. Every so often we get another unauthorized leak of two to six more potential Game of Thrones spin-offs. Yeah, like a bunch of animated ones. Yeah. Coming. I mean, I think that every company, I mean, they're not doing their jobs if they're not developing 100 versions of everything they control.

That is what every company is doing. Not all of them are sharing this information to the degree that Warner seems to be. And frankly, I don't know if it's a bad strategy because we're talking about it constantly on a podcast. No, I know. I mean, like I also, I saw that, Scott Z. Burns is also part of like the creative team. Scott Z. Burns is a bunch of Soterberg movies that I like. But like he is working on the Dune Spinoff show. Like there's like, there's already a Dune spin off show for a movie that hasn't come out. And I was like...

Well, there's a Suicide Squad spinoff show that is in production with John Sina. I mean, that is their strategy to flood both zones all the time. But if you think that Marvel is above or not Marvel, But if you think if like Amazon is above that, like wait till they make 15 Lord of the Ring shows. I mean, like they're not spending a half a billion dollars for one show, right? Like they're doing it to build up the sets, create the infrastructure, start the ball rolling. And then there will be that they bought that stuff for a reason. They bought MGM if that deal finally gets pushed through so that they can, I mean, I don't know whether what the parameters of the bond part of that deal on.

This is what I was about to say, exactly. But they didn't buy that so that they could show the spy who loved me. on Prime. Like, they bought it because they want to get into that business. There's a politeness still to the way we cover this stuff because it doesn't, if there's not no actual there, then what's the point? But we are, but I, but absolutely, like, Bonds Aston Martin or BMW or whatever his car branded sponsorship is at the moment. If you check out the tires in the one in Q's laboratory currently, there are a lot of bootprints on it from the tires getting kicked. Yeah. Like, you don't buy it,

without already having taken six meetings for the Bond Spinoff show or Origin Show. I mean, that's why you have these properties. And I think I've said to you anecdotally, like, within my own career on that side of the ball, like, I will have phone calls with development people at the studio, and they'll just name a movie that exists. Right. Do you have a spin on this? And I'll say, yes, that's a movie that exists. And I'll say, do you got anything? Got a take?

Want to do it? Want to take it? I mean, they have it. And that doesn't mean it's happening, or I deserve it, or I have a good idea, or it's ever going to be a TV show, but you got to keep the plate spinning. That's the business. That's fascinating. All right, so, like, we've talked about some sort of more headlining stuff. Did you see anything over the course of the week?

The two things I want to talk to you about right now is, well, one, I have, like, a piece on a doc here, I have just a line that says, are we happy for Josh Hamilton? Because he is in this season of Walking Dead. I'm always happy for Josh Hamilton. I, I'm, we're not talking about the former Texas Ranger, Josh. No, no, no.

We're talking about Josh Hamilton from kicking and screaming and from, yeah. That said, the former Texas Ranger, Josh Hamilton, would not be out of place on the Walking Dead. No, I don't know what's up with that guy right now. So I want to be careful to make too many, like, you know, assumptions about Josh Hamilton, the Texas Ranger. Josh Hamilton, Texas Ranger, I don't know anything about. Josh Hamilton is in Walking Dead. Every couple of seasons, we make a Walking Dead comment, which is essentially like, man, that trailer was super long.

Like they, at Comic-Con, they always put out like a six-minute trailer. And you just, it's just dark in people being like, I used to trust you,

but I can't anymore. And then like samurai sword across the head of a zombie. It does, I guess we are arriving at the end game for, for walking down. I had no idea

Jeffrey Dean Morgan was still like, on this show as like a guy. With a Louisville slugger. I think that's his thing. I mean, the late, middle age, I mean, I guess at this point, old age of phenomenons are amazing because we don't talk about it. That's not a barometer. That's just the show is never really our thing. But it's inarguable

that the show's luster has faded. But what does that mean? It still means millions of people watch every episode. It's hugely successful. I mean, the other notable thing about Walking Dead this week was that this long-running lawsuit was finally apparently settled. Frank Darabont got $200 million, right? Frank Darabont, the Shawshank Redemption writer-director who developed Robert Kirkman's comic book for AMC. And did most of the first season, right? Yeah, he did those first six episodes and then a little bit into the next. And then left under acrimonious terms. And then he and his agency were like AMC, you're hiding the ball, you're hiding the ball and the profits that were owed.

And it went on so long that you started to wonder, like, was this worth it? And then the answer is yes. Yes, the answer was it was worth it. Good job. Good job by you, Frank Darabond and your lawyers. Do you want me to talk about Josh Hamilton? Will you watch the last episode of The Walking Dead with me? Yes. Okay.

And can we also talk about the Miyazaki film you promised to watch then? Yeah, we'll do it like maybe we'll do a double feature. Here's a question that I don't know if we touched on last year. And by the way, I think people know this. We don't need to report the news. But Walking Dead Prime is ending. But presumably... I'm still waiting on my Rick Grun.

movies. That's right. The Rick Grimes movies apparently are still in the can and or coming. And then there's also a a Daryl and and and what's her name spinoff coming. Right. Norman the Norman Reader show. Yeah. So yeah, I think that I guess I kind of would be interested in watching the end only because my feelings about how human beings would behave during a pandemic has changed. For no reason whatsoever. But my, but but but I think a lot of my previous smugness about like how people would fare with a obvious disease that ruins everything, but they walk really slowly and you can see them coming. You know what I mean?

Like, I feel like now I get it more. And I feel like I would might, it might be even more upsetting. You feel like Hannity would be on just be like, I never said that the zombies were bad. I just said, do your own research. Do your own research. Get close to a zombie. Invite one into your home and see how bad it is.

Yeah, I just feel like when you see, I used to look at the slow-moving zombies and I'd be like, well, you see them coming. It truly doesn't seem that hard to avoid them unless you, like a protagonist on the Walking Dead, falls through a bad floorboard into a cellar full of them, which, you know, happens. It happens. But now I feel like we would see them coming and we'd be like, I get it. But, you know, Luca just hit Disney Plus and I got to finish it.

I got to know if he turns back into a sea monster or not. What about Loki season four? I got Luca Loki. Loki, Luca, I'm going to close the window and just finish these shows out. I'm sure I've got enough time. So by far the sort of strangest pop culture experience I've had since being on vacation last week, and just even a couple more days now, is the secondhand experience of the Donda streaming party, which I did not know was happening.

I looked at my phone and saw everybody kind of tweeting about it. went down and like on, you know, because you know how on Twitter you can go down a level if you want to? Yeah, I mean, it's all the way down. Like, let's say you're reading something and it's like, oh, this is an Atlantic writer. And then the Atlantic writer retweets a virologist. And then you're like, now I'm on virologist Twitter.

And this is really intense. I was like that for God. Just to pause you, Chris. The beauty of Twitter is you never ascend the level. You know what I mean? Like, you never start clicking and suddenly you're just smarter. Yeah. That doesn't happen.

But I went to the virologist Twitter level of Kanye, where it was like, dudes who were at this streaming thing being like, oh my God, this hoover verse. And I was just like, I did actually feel like unfrozen caveman lawyer where I was like, will this record be released this evening to any of the streaming platforms that I subscribe to? And I forgot. I forgot that's how Kanye rolls. I wanted to, but I wanted to ask you like,

Did you pay attention to this at all? Do you know that Kanye is now currently living in the Mercedes-Benz Stadium in Atlanta where he is apparently working on Donda, like they had, I can't tell if this is like a joke or not, but there was a picture of two chains in like the Falcons locker room,

like recording a verse. And like, we've been through a lot with Kanye. Kanye was a very foundational text for us, not only as friends, but this podcast has spent a lot of time talking about Kanye. Yeah. Good Fridays is probably, one of our more cherished shared experiences, like growing, not growing up, but being in New York City

and the Z-Share days of those singles getting released on MT3 blogs and downloading them immediately and like just running them back over and over again that entire weekend. We really were with him through Jesus, through a lot. And then the last four years have been real tough. And I wouldn't say ever was like, I swear off. Kanye as much as I'm like, I tap out. You know, I'm out of the discourse. I don't know, like, I don't really care if he's making gospel music in Montana.

Like, it's not really clicking for me anymore. And then I did feel, I felt the old pangs. Yes. I felt like the thaw coming when I was reading about this. I have not heard a note of this record that does not exist.

But I was curious where you were at with Kanye Incorporate. Well, I'll just second everything you said. He is our, for better or worse, our contemporary. We're all born the same year. His emergence onto the scene. Just recently when I was going through my storage boxes,

I found some of those first mix CDs that you probably cop for me at Kim's. Get a little soon and stuff, yeah. We loved him as an artist. And I would say if there's, I don't know how much residual music critic is still in us in terms of just that mindset and what we used to do

a living. I think that music critics don't like being wrong. Critics of any kind or cultural observers don't like being wrong, but the worst thing is other people being right. That's worse than being wrong. And I think that even when he was at his most profane or misogynistic or out there, I went on Front Street being like defending this guy and his muse because the music was just simply more exciting than anyone else's. And it was an entire experience. And then the last four years happened. And I was like, this sucks because he's doing terrible things. And he seems like a deeply unwell person.

And it's affecting my appreciation or ability to engage with this music that meant so much to me. And that was one level of, like, dilettante wrestling that I just couldn't do during the last four years. You know, so I just, like you said, I just tapped out. I just tapped out. And I had the same experience you did this week. where you just suddenly the tweets start coming, and there's like a $75 t-shirt that looks kind of cool. And then it's like, then you actually enhance on your phone

and it's $175. And you're like, and how much were the buffalo wings? And the spectacle. Yeah. And the sense of excitement. This was at the stadium in Atlanta. Okay. So he theoretically was in Wyoming, recording again,

and people were making their pilgrimages and was interesting to note that the current creme de la crem of culture were still going to see him. Like, little baby is like, sure, here I come. I am inarguably exponentially more famous than you at this moment. And I will come to Wyoming to do this for you, which I thought was interesting. And then he held this of, he did what he always does, which is I'm going to, and by the way, speaking of rock critics, the freelance writer in me that will never die, deeply relates to, I'm not finished this article, but I'm going to.

to throw a listening party for it and announce the date so that this article will be sent to you at this time. And by this time, I mean four hours after you've gone into the stadium. Sure. There is something inarguably thrilling about a shared cultural spectacle like this. It makes it more fun. And you and I miss that for sure. But then there was the come down. I mean, again, I wasn't even engaged with it, really. But then you find out that the JZ verse was recorded at 4 p.m. Right, that day.

Yeah. And that, of course, the album is not on streaming because, of course, it's not done. Right. And who knows when it will come. And this may be, you know, this may ultimately be as satisfying as the $55 snack plate at the Mercedes-Benz Stadium. And you kind of, I don't know where you are with it. I'm still going to listen to it. I want to hear a push a verse again over a conundit.

I mean, I can't help it. I want to hear it. but I do have a little bit of this feeling of like, I don't know if I can, I think we've all changed a lot in the last four years, and I don't know if I can do this again. And by this, I mean, waves vaguely to living in a stadium

like the fucking fan of the opera with spanks over his face. You know what I mean? During an Atlanta United game. I just, I struggle with it. Kanye getting into soccer management would be the best, I think, for all parties involved, for soccer and for Kanye.

This is an idea I can get behind. This would also, Chris, you've been on vacation too long. Do you realize the level of work you're assigning yourself if Kanye West got into soccer management? Oh, my God. I would follow him like the dead. You are the king's man. I've never even seen those movies, but I assume it's about the king has one man who can do this job. That's you.

Before we get into White Lotus and Ted Lassow, did you have any other stuff that you had been enjoying or noticing or thrive? You sent out an incredibly passionate tweet very late last night about TV. Yes. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I did have two things. One, I think I've talked about it on the podcast before. But there is a show that I think is maybe the funniest thing ever made. And I say that heavily. I intentionally do not say that lightly. It is a British comedy called Garth Morangy's Dark Place. It's from 2004. Only six episodes. created by Richard Iowadi and Matthew Holness, who if you like British comedy, you definitely know who they are. They're very big deals. Matt Barry, from what we do in the shadows, is one of the stars, co-stars of the show. One of the reasons, inarguably why I love this show so much is because

it was such a secret. It was passed on to me. You were mentioning Z-Share and MP3 blogs. This show for an American audience, is only, as far as I know, only ever existed on YouTube. And so when someone showed it to me, it felt like a fever dream. And then one that you could pass on to other people. And the conceit of this, and now it's on Amazon Prime. And the conceit of the show, can you imagine just getting the screenlit? The conceit of the show is that there is a famous British horror writer named Garth Morangi, who's like kind of Stephen King mixed with the old TV producer in America, Stephen Connell. And at some point in the late 70s early, in some point in the 80s, Garth Morangi was given the opportunity to make a television show

that he would write direct and star in, even though he was not an actor. And the show was called Garth Morengi's Dark Place. And Garth Morangi present day introduces his show, saying this show is just too damn dangerous to be seen. And then he unspools an episode. It is also interspersed with him and his collaborators reflecting on it. So it is meta, on top of meta, on top of meta.

And the show within the show, he is a doctor, at a haunted hospital. And I mean, you know that thing where there's a joke and then the joke keeps going. Yeah. And then you laugh more. And then it keeps going.

And then it keeps going. And you start to laugh a little bit less and you start to look around. And then it keeps going. The classic version of this is Will Ferrell falling through the floor in Austin Powers and just being, I'm trapped down here. Imagine just that as a series.

Yeah. But one that also has the greatest intentionally bad edits and acting and direct. I mean, they're all pretending to be bad actors on top of it. Right. I love it so much and I'm so happy it's finally streaming. It felt like an impossibility. I tried watching a little bit of it last night. I think I had watched too much television up until that point because I watched like a couple hours of TV and then I turned that on after my wife had fallen asleep and I was just like, am I, am I dreaming? Like I was like this. Did I dream that

even Andy even tweeted about this? It's so good. The other thing, since I know you're speaking about earnest tweets. And by the way, speaking of earnest tweets, who I think as a gentleman I met here on Sandsham Street the other night, who said he was a big fan of the podcast, but then said, which is very nice. And then said, I'm just a local guy. If you're listening, local guy, that's the best.

Don't apologize. You are our audience. We want to speak to the local guy. Men on street. I've had like a couple of folks come up to me in Maine, and it's been awesome to meet people. And like one dude came up to me in a, an oyster bar outside of Camden, Maine,

and was just like, we're, you know, really digging the bureau. So I was just like, this is, the brand is strong. I'm really into it. It was really kind. But I did want to say one last thing, because there's a little bit of a TV. I've been doing some food, sending some food tweets, I mean, or Instagram or whatever. If you are anywhere near Philadelphia or you can travel to Philadelphia, you do need to come eat here.

It's really, things have been, it's an incredible food city now, which is so awesome. For like a split second, I was like, oh, are we going to do the ethics of the Bourdain documentary? Nope. Pivot. We're not doing that. I just wanted to shout out. There's a TV element to it as well. One of the greatest eating experiences I've had in my adult life is at South Philly Barbacoa, which is a restaurant here by the Italian market. Chef Christina Martinez is making my favorite kind of taco, the best I've ever had in America, barbacoa tacos with consomme on the side. Its place is only open on the mornings, on the weekends, and it is an absolute ecstatic celebration of both food and also of just a community. and the diversity of the city and truly of America, and she's as an undocumented woman in America, she's an incredible trailblazer. Not everyone listening can travel right now.

Not everyone listening can eat barbacoa tacos in Philadelphia, but you can watch her episode of Chef's Table on Netflix, which is a beautiful hour of television. And I don't know if we've mentioned that episode before, but I was just reminded of how wonderful it is when I finally got to eat her food. And, I mean, you mentioned Bourdain. if you are looking to scratch that itch a little bit,

I have issues, honestly with chef's table in general, just because it's a little bit food-pourny for my taste generally, but this episode really hit the sweet spot of like just cultural representation. Is food porn for you just like if they do like overly romanticized plate shots? Yeah, like food being tweezed by a brilliant Frenchman with a furrowed brow and him talking about like how he gets inspiration from art and color and his seven teen wives. Like, okay. I mean, that does sound inspiring, but I'm less interested in that than in the people who are actually, you know, washing your dishes and buying your tweezers. Okay. Let's take a quick break.

We'll come back and we'll talk Ted Lassau and White Lotus. The playoffs are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes and misses. predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools.

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Download the Priceline app or visit Priceline.com and book your next trip today. Okay, let's do Lassau first, Andy, because I know that this is going to be a one-way stream. Yeah, I did want to talk to you. How are we going to do this? Well, so first two episodes went up on Friday, I believe, on Apple. and you would have to be living under a rock not to know that because Sudakis has been on the cover of GQ. Our buddy, Zach Barron, wrote an amazing profile of him

that has been rightfully, like, shared very widely at least. I've seen a lot of like of pull quotes taken from that. And now everybody being like, this is my guy. A bunch of other, like, I just feel like there's been a huge surge of Ted Lassow stuff. I would say that it almost reminds me of a pre-pend pandemic way that TV sometimes works out where a season comes out, people kind of fall in love with it, catch up with it,

get into it, and then as that kind of crests, and the maximum amount of people possible who've seen first season Ted Lassow or a first season of a show, all of a sudden six weeks later, there's a press run, and then there's another season. And that is actually the sweet spot that you want to be in,

probably since post Netflix, is the ability to have your cake and eat it too, to have a long shelf life for your season that almost sets up the next season's kind of anticipation. I think they did that with Ted Lasso. So obviously, I enjoyed the first season quite a bit. There's no real reason for me to like kind of get the plot as the plot of Ted Lasso. I think they're obviously really, really sharp in the second season. So spoilers for anybody who hasn't finished the first season alert. But in the second season, the Richmond, the club that he works out has been relegated to the championship,

the second division of English football, which is smaller stadiums, less TV coverage, kind of a little bit more funky. Kind of probably suits the vibe of the coach a little bit more. And I just wanted to shout out, a lot of people talk about like the sort of the kindness. There's the sort of viral clip of the dart scene.

I'm sure you've seen that, where he's like, you know, barbecue sauce and throws the dart and that being kind of like this emblem of what makes the show. special, which is that this guy has like a heart, a huge heart, and that the show has huge heart, and that it's about kindness and it's about curiosity. And I agree with all that. What I want to just shout out in watching this second season get up and running, because I had like, I was kind of like, I wonder whether they can capture lightning in a bottle twice, because what that show did the first

season was such a special collision of context and content. Like, the fact is that I think a lot of people were trapped at home and did need something like that to make them feel better. That doesn't mean that it's not as good as everybody says it is, but I do think it was helped. The thing about situational comedies, which ultimately is, is I think we often really focus on whether or not the comedy hits and we don't ever talk about the situation. And I just wanted to mention how fucking smart they are about the way that they set everything up here and just how effective the workplace of the workplace comedy that they've got going is. Like, there's real, whether it's Bill Lawrence or whatever, the bones of this show and like the

old school mechanics of them being like, let's have Ted bring his boss basically like a biscuit or a cookie every day. I can't remember. He brings her a dessert every day. It's like a bit from the first season. And it's a character building thing because it shows that he's like a very considerate person. But it's also just really smart because it means he has to go into. her office every episode. Yep. And that means that they have to have a conversation and that they always know what's going on in each other's lives.

And that's shit that, like, I think sometimes you watch, you watch sitcoms. And if, unless they're really good or really made by really pro people, like, that doesn't happen. And then you're like, why does the show feel like slightly off or underbaked? And it's because, like, shows aren't just three jokes per page. Like, you have to have the mechanics of why. is this happening? Why does this person go into this room every day?

And you can just tell that that works. I'll finish my soliloquy by just saying that they have also figured out how to deliver the syringe hit into the jugular of emotion now. Like in the first episode, there is a very sort of comic, but I guess sad moment where the mascot of the team dies, the dog, the greyhound dog. And it gets killed by a guy kick. a soccer ball at it, which is stupid and been funny, but also like, what? And then they'd use that to have Ted Lassow give this statement at a press conference about his childhood dog and like what

pets mean to us at various points in our life. And you're like, you fucking guys realize, like, now you know what you're cooking with. Because even though it's like kind of a silly moment or it's, it's sort of like Ted Lassow TM or Ted Lassow copy right now, it is still very, very, very effective. So, so far two episodes are up. I'm sure our listeners are listening. I don't mean a bore because Andy doesn't watch, but I just wanted to shout out, like, some of the mechanics of the show that I thought are really good. I think, first of all, you're crying. I love your soliloquy. You're weeping at my... I am curious what pets mean to us, but I'll circle back to that. Look, you know me. I think that your, your observations about the secret sauce that makes comedy

work is incredibly well observed. I think you're exactly right. And I think it's often overlooked. I also think it's very sweet that after doing this podcast for nine years, you think me not watching something is going to stop me from talking about it. Oh, no, I want you to. I wanted to clarify a couple things. One is, I am not anti this show. A moment ago, I said, you know, whatever critical DNA is left within me or within us, like, we don't like being wrong. We don't like other people being right. I fully believe that I, that other people are right, and I'm okay with it about this show. My decision not to watch the first season purely was, a quirk of chemicals in the moment where I was like, I can't do this right now. I see the sweetness

and I am in a darker place or the country feels in a darker place or my interests or what I need when I'm on the couch right now or running counter to what the show is offering. It's nice to know it's there. Sudaka seems like the best guy and I'm thrilled for the show's success. And I may check it out at some point. Again, it's nice to know that it's out there. Comedies are good like that. I think the other thing is not to be New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman in the back of a cab being like, here's how the working class in India really think. But we, you know, Chris and I are traveling a little bit outside of our Hollywood bubbles. And occasionally one gets a reminder of how TV actually works in America, which is not obsessing over the aborted Game of Thrones spinoff set in Flea Bottom. by the way, Casey call us.

It is what I heard a lovely family talking about when I was at the neighborhood pool visiting my in-laws. And they were talking TV. And they weren't talking the watch. No offense to us. I mean, I hope they'd find something in our emotional gymnastics routine, Simone Biles-esque, about whether we'll listen to the new Kanye album or not. But they basically, the conversation was, was.

This was the gist of it. One was Black Widow is out, and did you hear that they also gave Wanda? Wanda has her own movie, and it's called Wanda Vision. And what was Wanda's brother's name? And then they talked about that for a while, but he died.

And then they were like, have you watched any of the shows? And they were like, I haven't watched Winter Soldier. And I was like, this falcon erasure will not stand. But they were aware of all the Marvel shows, very unclear whether they were movies or TV shows,

but knew they were available to them. So you didn't. Kool-Aid man over into their conversation and say, let me tell you about Pietro. I did not reenact the Marshall McLuhan scene from Annie Hall, which is I know what you're asking. I did not do that. The next thing they said,

after they all kind of nodded about Pietro, they did figure it out, by the way. So the fact that this Rando family in Delaware was like, Wanda Maximoff's dead twin brother's name is Pietro. Like, good job, Kevin Feigy. You did it. Let's put you in charge of vaccine distribution because you can get it into resistant households. The next thing they said was, oh, Ted Lasso's back and they were happy.

And I just think sometimes it's not that complicated. You know, to your point, Chris, like even if I do catch up on the show and watch it and we talk about it, I don't think it will, maybe I'm misreading the show. It probably would not be a week-to-week show for us, even though they're releasing it week-to-week because it is a feel-good comedy that people like and enjoy. and those are the hardest things for us to talk about. He's not looking for Carcosa. It's not that.

Right. Yeah. But it is not, again, it's hard to do, but it's not complicated why this show is a success. People are excited to have it back because it makes them happy. Yeah. And that's great. I mean, there are many ways to get people hooked on in entertainment in 2021, and none of them are easy. But making something that makes people feel good that they like and they're excited about.

I mean, that's any network or streamer. That's the one they want. Does White Lotus make you feel good? No. Great segue. I do not regret taking a week off last week, but the only thing that gave me a little pang was I really loved White Lotus episode two. I liked it more than episode one.

And I was ready to, maybe not Kool-Aid man, but maybe Crystal Light Ice Tea guy, come on the show today and be like all in on the show. I know we talked a lot about the first episode. And then the third episode kind of put me back on my heels. Still like it. Still impressed by it. Still intrigued by it. And still planning on going to Hawaii every week for the next three weeks. Oh, I thought you meant like with the show. Oh yeah. Some news. This is my last podcast. I'm done. I think that if you were, if you were in Hawaii and I was on the East Coast, that might be a time zone too far. I don't know if we could have made that work. I would be like Quinn on a chair at dawn while my task cam washes out to see just to make it

work. But I think that if anyone still listening to our show and watching White Lotus, maybe if anyone is jumping off of the fence of that show or jumping off of the charter boat. It was very well received by, I mean, I know that. by Twitter, not by the people in the pool. I know Bill Simmons loved it. So I was like, really?

This is Bill, Bill liking a show is always like a sign that it's like... That's interesting. Yeah. Okay, so maybe I'm wrong. I guess that my takeaway from episode three was everything that's good about the show is still here, but not quite as much of it because it wasn't as funny.

I mean, episode two was surprisingly funny in a lot of ways from like that, especially that drug scene where they just kept pulling up more different kinds of drugs they accidentally brought with them. It was also a lot of... just talking about sex and not having a ton of it or showing it or other things happening. You know, it was a set up episode and it felt like part of the larger story, but it was one of those episodes that I think would probably hit better if you were binging it as opposed to week to weaking it.

And I still really like and admire the show, but my enthusiasm did dip a bit just because, you know, the direction of the show, and this is not a breaking bad situation, but it really is a, here are a bunch of marbles and we're going to put them, and they're just going to spin and go down and down and down. And they're going to keep bumping up against each other in ways that are going to be extremely cringy at times and uncomfortable and go to some interesting storytelling and emotional places. But so far, I'm not, this isn't, you tell me, I realize, now I'm soliloquizing, but I don't feel like this show is going to surprise me. It's going to impress me. and is that a distinction worth making?

Yeah, I think maybe surprise has become an over, uh, over sort of tapped mechanism in, in a lot of TV and a lot of film. And then, and that I think that we've had this conversation in a circular fashion about a lot of the Marvel shows and the sort of the need for there to be something else.

And one of the reasons why I've been enjoying a bunch of the shows that I've been watching, both that are on now, that are coming in August, so something like the chair or whatever, like, is because while there are elements of like twists or there's like plot, you know, there's like, there's plot. So there's, there's stuff that you didn't expect to happen. The shows themselves don't rely entirely on surprise or shock or untangling a mystery at the heart of it. Now, even with White Lotus, I think by episode three, most viewers are probably like, whatever that first scene is,

in the airport is in the first episode is not like, it doesn't feel like it is the most important thing yet. You know what I mean? It's like, it is something that is like almost a capstone in the beginning of the show, you know? And that the more important stuff is

whatever emotional journey, all these characters going on. I think the reason why you're having, among other reasons, but I think the reason why there might be some week-to-week variance with people is, there's a bunch of difficult people who are not,

doing anything illicit like making meth or cool, like coming up with dope advertisements or running the mafia, they're just being their shitty selves in Hawaii, right? Like, I think that's part of the problem. By the way, shouts to Mad Men for being the best show because making cool advertisements is not necessarily as eye-catching as cooking methamphetamine. Yeah, but equally dangerous. You know, like when you think about like the Marlborough man, not equally dangerous

but you know what I mean I do think that I just wanted to mention just because we talked about the mechanics of the comedy of Ted Lassow just how savvy Mike White is at first of all

squeezing a fucking couple months in Hawaii out of HBO so shout out to him but recognizing the resort as like a perfect laboratory to do human experiments in because you do get

people at this sort of most raw and most kind of dependent on this invisible illusion of like Santa Claus like service at these at these resorts right where even Murray Bartlett's character talks about this in the first episode where it's like they're coming and you know we're their mommies we're their friends where they're we're we're there to like do all these things but we're also there to be kind of weirdly invisible and and replaceable because we don't want to develop too much of a relationship with them. And that is obviously, like, the Natasha Rothwell character

is kind of developing a relationship with the Jennifer Coolidge character and kind of breaking the sort of cardinal rule of it is that, like, they're not really your friends or your family members. They're there to be kind of like coddled and then cycled out. I have one small criticism

and then something I just want to celebrate on the show instead. Because we're on board. We're enjoying it. It's, as usual, HBO. Classic Barnes & Noble book reading. production from you right there is like, I have a question. And then I also just have a comment on Bill Clinton's foreign policy that I'd like to.

It's classic comment at a screening, at a film screening at like the Ritz at the Bourse in 1996. Yeah. I have a comment, but it's really more of a question. So one thing that I struggle with with the show, and I again, let me just caveat it. Like, I'm in, I'm really interested. I'm enjoying having the show in my life. Shouts HBO, because even when they have something that isn't necessarily for everyone, like a Mike White show, their timing to put this on in the summer just feel smart

and right. Like, this is working for me right now when in a more competitive, focused, we're not on vacation or traveling as we've been. It might not shine as brightly or take up as much oxygen even on our podcast. One thing that I'm struggling with is I have a hard time understanding how big this resort is. I was just talking about this in my life. It's a strange comment to make. Yeah. But like when I was making prior patch, there was.

was the thing that this is a writer's room thing that the writers would constantly ding me with, and I don't even know if we got it right. So I'm putting myself out there for criticism, but it was tiny town, right? Like how big is this town where all these things are happening? But this town also has a newspaper and a TV station and whatever. And I came up with an answer that I guess the network accepted. And I don't know if viewers did. But the thing about White Lotus is when we meet the characters, these characters on a boat to get there, the impression is this is an extremely exclusive, expensive resort where you are personally coddled and welcomed by the hotel management and Armand, Marie Bartlett's character is ever present and everyone knows him because

he runs this place. They shot the show at pretty fancy established resorts in Maui that are big. And so sometimes I dip in and out of the narrative because I'm like, if they're this many people at one of the many poolside bars slash restaurants, there's six Armands at this hotel. You know what I mean? Or there need to be. So, like, I think that there's a couple of things going on. One, and I can't remember, I feel back because I, this is, I'm definitely jacking this,

like, observation. Although I think it is one that others have made and you and I have talked about is that there is an element of, I think there's, TV is going to be a little disorienting for the rest of this year and further because I don't think that they can really shoot scenes with like five people in them. I mean, yeah. The fact that the show is a COVID show in every sense is definitely coloring this take. Like, I think that's why like at the pool, there's only three people at the pool,

but like it also doesn't seem like they're being doted upon sometimes or that there are. It also doesn't seem like a small pool. It seems big enough for many. It seems like a big pool. And this is like we're getting into the weeds here. But like the restaurant, when they go to dinner in this show, the restaurant's full, right? Like the restaurant has like other people in it.

It's just that I think because of the way they have to shoot this thing, they kind of like emphasize the exclusivity of it, but it does make the way Armand is torturing Jake Lacey's character over this room a little bit like, so how could that even have happened if you guys are such an exclusive group of people?

I agree with this. I think the other thing I want to say that is great, about the show and why I hope that HBO is always in this business and I hope that other networks and streamers get into this business, which is the thing that can happen when you support

anuteur. Like the hotel business? Like a Mike White. I want to get into that business. Seems like a great time. But with someone like a Mike White, he doesn't make shows for everybody. He makes the shows he wants to make and he follows his muse. And part of following his muse and having his own point of view and sensibilities

and taste is that he falls in love with certain performers and he fights for them. Yeah. And puts them in the positions that he wants them in to succeed in the way he sees them. And with someone like Jennifer Coolidge, and if you read the profile of her in Vulture, you know that they have a very close relationship. He clearly adores her. The camera of the show adores her and puts her in all these, you know, showcase scenes. I still don't have the biggest appetite for her always, but I respect it and I appreciate it. And it's a different speed of a pitch, right, coming at us. The flip side of it, I think you can't just single out that performance without also saying

Murray Bartlett, an actor whom I loved on looking, where he played a very different character and an American character, is so great on this show. He's top build alphabetically, which is great for him, but he is, in many ways, the star of the show, and he's just crushing it. And I love it. I love seeing him have this opportunity. I love watching him. I'm thrilled to see where he's going doesn't seem like any place good. And then the third piece of that is Alexander Didario, who like any young actor, let me actually be more specific, a lot of young actresses has had a bumpy, bumpier career road because she is, I mean, often objectified for how she looks in roles and those are the roles she's offered. And I had skepticism about her in this show

because of that, which is not fair. And I kind of love her performance. She's good. Yeah, she's really good. And I kind of love the character. And the work that she's doing, investing this person with the right mix of, you know, principle and morals and soul that she seems needs to have, but also the kind of Twitter era, attention span and ambition that anyone working in that field and doing, you know,

clickbait 10 best things I like about girl boss's pieces, whatever. have to have to survive, I think it's kind of awesome. And I don't know who else is giving her this opportunity. And I love it when you see actors get the thing that they have been telling their agents that they want and then they make the most of it. And that's, that's the vibe I get from this. I mean, again, I don't know her. I don't know anything about it. But I just, I really like performance. Yeah, I mean, there's a Jake Lacey interview in Vulture today. And it's obvious to me, at least, that like this was a really seductive part for him to take because he gets to play a dick. And he hasn't yet. He sure does. He's always the nice guy in high fidelity.

like he's always just like this sort of safe safe choice so yeah all right well we can wrap it up there we'll be back on Thursday I think I'm trying to think of like what shows we need to talk about on Thursday

but we'll find some we'll find maybe maybe I think we should just like just check in with each other about Donda yeah Donda might be out by Thursday so you know I don't think so but I can't wait to just just keep chattering about the anticipation enjoy Philly say hi to it for me

I'll bring you back a lot of lobster. I'll grab you a cheese stick on the way out. Later, man.