Michaela Coel's 'I May Destroy You' Continues to Be Brilliant. Plus, Parsing 'Dark' and an Interview With Ramy Youssef.
00:00I need sports to have to clear the room.Stand up and walk now.Hello and welcome to the watch.My name is Chris Ryan.I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line,currently writing a lonesome dove for the TikTok generation.It's Andy Greenwald.You joke, but I know nothing about TikTok.
00:22I know nothing about his generation.But I do know that I spent 10 minutes this morning trying to feel my waythrough a joke about Biggs Way as a trap rapper, which is just, there's no Venn diagram.Like, we just told people we're going to watch Loansome Dove and talk about it.And I'm already on like the fifth iteration of a not good enough joke.Like, I need to diversify my portfolio guys.First of all, happy Thursday.Yeah.
00:50Hi to Kaya.Hi to Andy.I don't know how deep we can go with this, you know?Like, can you feel the listeners, the listener base just being like,disintegrated in front of us.First of all, today we have some news we're going to talk about.We're going to talk about I May Destroy You.And then the second half of the podcast is my interview with Rami Yusuf,
01:09who obviously is the creator and the titular character of the Hulu show Rami,which just was announced, I think, today that its third season was coming.I'm jealous of this.I wish I could have joined you for it.He was awesome.It was great to talk to him and talk to him about a really interesting second seasonof that show that goes in a lot of different directions that I don't thinkpeople necessarily anticipated. So it was really cool talking to Rami about that. Greenwald,
01:35we are going to do this Lonesome Doverry Watch. We have committed to that. Should we give people atime frame of some sort? Yeah, I think you and I still need to work some things out becausewe've started... Take it back to the garage and tinker a little. Look, Was, it's becauseyou and I are passionate about this particular piece of IP to a degree that is maybe unprecedentedin our recent lives. We really want to talk about the book. I have started watching thethe miniseries.And I mostly want to talk about the book.So I want to figure out the best way to do this and articulate it and what maybe there's
02:09some guests we want to bring on.But I will say, and this is anecdotal, this is the smallest sample size, but I am feelingthe dovmentum.I think that, look, call me, call me an optimist, call me crazy, don't call me Gen Z.But I think that there is still an audience out there for.just enthusiasm.Not old westerns,but we love this.
02:35And it's given us a lot of pleasure and joy this summerwhen it's in short supply.And I did peruse the Facebook group a little bit.People are pretty excited.Some other people are firing it up.I have been, and I don't use this word lightly,a super spreader but for good in getting other people in my lifeto at least agree to pick up this book.
02:57Like who?Oh, yeah, you've told me.You've told me. I was like, did you get your wife to read Lonesome Dove?Let's let's all take a breath. It's all calm down.I told you that she agreed to let me watch my Cowboy Show.But, no, like some of our fans and even guests of the pod, like Josh Schwartz,ping me to say he was going to fire it up.I was doing a hard sell on Tim Simons earlier.
03:23Stephen Falk, creator of You're the Worst, texted me,asking me which re-up gang mixtape I was referring to.and I said, I told him,and I said,what about Lonesome Dove?And he said,got to go by.So there's still work to be done.
03:34Okay.But all I'm saying is,I think that this will be a fun thing for people.And I'm excited that people are starting to read the book.So we will figure out our timing,and we will announce it next week.Yeah.I mean, feel free to just fire up the book.
03:48We want to do like an episodic kind of conversationabout the four episodes of the miniseries.But in the same way that we're,you know,we have our project.We're trying to get this,this dove shit going. We're trying to get...Her life project, yes.
04:01We're trying to get the McMurtry Wagon Treeand Rolling. Other people are doing other things,man. That's good. And there was some big news today.Oscar Isaacand Michelle Williamsare remaking Ingmar Bergman'sscenes from a marriage for HBO.It's coming courtesy of the guy,
04:21his name escapes me at the moment, who gave usthe Israeli version ofin-treatment, like the original in-treatment.Yeah.Greenwald.To pivot from Larry McMurtry to Ingmar Borgman is probably the most watch thing I've ever been a part of.Are we on the precipice of a Bergman extended universe?Are we going to domesticate those wild strawberries?
04:43Is that what you're asking me?Is death, like the actual character death who, like, can play chess against the night?Is he the new Thanos?Has the eighth seal been announced?And...Who needs an infinity gauntlet?You got all those seals.You know what I'm saying?
05:02Here's what I have to say about this.Obviously, we are fans of this idea.We are huge fans of Oscar Isaac and Michelle Williams.Can I stop you right there?Can I just, I don't know.I am not a fan of this.You're not.No, I don't give a shit.
05:20Here's why I'm a fan of this idea.By the way, that is a wild summer 2020.see our take, quote, I don't give a shit.I don't care about this.Is that the seal that we're breaking now?Is that the first seal?It's not my job.It's not my job to like everything Oscar Isaac does.
05:40I like a lot of it.You know what I mean?And I just feel like Stan culture is out of hand.And I am not necessarily going to follow him on every path, every winding road,Michelle Williams takes.And how dare you?Scoreboard, Chris, scoreboard.Our Rise of Skywalker podcast is still
05:59rupturing eardrums throughout the known galaxy.We have anti-stand in Oscar Isaac Project,so thus the pendulum may swing back.I guess I don't really think of the Star Wars sequelsas an Oscar Isaac Project person.It's an Oscar Isaac vanity project.Justice for Oscar Isaac.Let me take a step back.
06:21Here's why I'm a fan of this project.Regardless of, I mean, I assume it will.Do people need to know what we're talking about?talking about. Do people know who Angmar Bergman is andwhat scenes from a marriages? Scenes for marriagewas a, I think, relatively lateperiod Bergman mini-seriesthat does what it says
06:35on the package. It looked at scenes from aI think disintegrating marriage, if I remember correctly.I don't think it was like super happy.Thriving marriage and understanding.Scenes from two people super gettingalong. I feel reallyseen and heard by you right now in thisargument. Thank you. Yeah.
06:53The reason why,Okay, you put me on the spot here.I don't know if this will be good.I don't know if I'll watch it.Kaya just told me about a series on TikTok where someone's rescuing a pigeon.So obviously, my dance card is filling up.But it feels like a throwback to an era of TV that doesn't exist anymore and probablyexisted six months ago.
07:18And maybe that's when this deal started.And so this is just being announced now.And this is actually a pre-COVID.era TV show, but even pre-COVID era, the moment when talented, worthwhile people could be like,hmm, here's an idea from the old dream journal and just have it willed into being by one of thesedeep-pocketed streamers. That was already going away. That was already going away. And so the fact thatthe underlying IP of this is not Tolkien related or vampire-related or podcast-related.and no shouts to our own medium,
07:56fills me with some kind of old-fashioned hope, I guess.Just because there are projectsand we could name some of themor people can just Google,like from the last six monthsthat felt like sure thingsof the prestige TV erathat have not gone
08:09or that have not sold.Packages that have fallen throughthat seem to have all the pieces.And so that made me feel pretty good, I guess,because I want to see these two actors work.I want to see them cook.I like seeing them cook,but I've seen,
08:23I just feel like I've seen Michelle Williams cook this recipe before.And I feel like Michelle Williams likes stories about broken relationships the way likeJean-Claude Van Dam like avenging his family's death.You know?And it just feels like I want to see Michelle.I loved Fossi Burden.I want to see her do lots of different stuff.I'm sure this would be good.
08:46Let Michelle be happy is what you're saying.Yeah, sure, man.Come on.That's it.That's all I got.That's actually like what counts as big news this week.Before we do, I May Destroy You,did you want to talk a little bit about our dark plan?
09:02Yes. Oh, that's what I want to talk to you about.So dark.We do a lot of talking about what we might talk about something.Because we miss each other.This is like the one time a week.We see each other's face.I wanted to just spring this on you on the podcast,but you inform me 24 years into our.
09:22friendship that you dislike spontaneity.So this is, I mean, you know that I don't like this when you do this.I'm not doing anything.All I'm saying is I feel like I was letting you down and I felt like I was letting our podcastlisteners down and I want to cover dark on the show.We had a lot of fun with it two years ago with season one.You and Jason Gallagher had too much fun with it last year.So I kind of want to, you know, put the brackets on that.
09:47And so I'm back, baby.I am plunging three.I've turned the time machine back to last year.I'm plunging through season two.Where are you in season two?Hold on.Let's not get crazy.I just want to say.
10:00You have not actually started season two.Yes, I have.Yes, I have.And I have some thoughts that I'd like to share with people because, you know, time waits for no man.I believe that's what Noah said once.That's his name, right?No.I promise you, Chris, that next Thursday, we will begin our conversation of Dark Season 3.
10:22Okay.In the original German, which I've been studying.Very, very...You and I are going to speak German to each other?One of my favorite things about watching the show in Germanis like the secondary layer of pleasure that it bringswhen the character says something like,I do not sell my tit or my ass, and those words, same in German.
10:42You know what I mean?Like, good to know.Yeah.Good to know.No, so we're going to get into season three of Dark.Couple just some user manual stuff.of all the shows to take like a nice, relaxing multi-year hiatus from?This ain't it.
11:02No, trust me.This is somebody who deeply immersed himself in capital D dark Reddit cultureand trying to piece together what was happening in season two.Even the break between season two and three has made the show difficult to follow for me.And I've done the work.I've done the homework.The thing is, you know, this won't come as a surprise to anyone.But like you and I, like, you know, we work in this field and we talk about TV shows.
11:32And probably even when we're not on the mic, you and I have both been called upon.And we've seen this happen in social situations to kind of like provide a recap or like an entry point or give me the log line or whatever for a show.So yesterday I, you know, because I am a responsible and loving husband, I turned to my wife.and I said, bad news,the next week will be spentdeep divingthe second seasonof a German time travel show.
11:59And then,and then,much like a Tiederman,being in counter...A Tietermin.A Tademan.Coming face to facewith her own future self,
12:11I did not expectwhat came next,which was,oh, my friend was just telling meabout this show.Let's watch it together.tell me what I missedand your boy's card
12:23was pulledin Englishin DeutschI was likeso here's the thingthere's a nuclear power plantand there's a cavebut the amount of times
12:33when a visitorfrom another planetor perhaps the Stasilistening onyou knowshouts the lives of othersheard me say the wordsno that's the little boy
12:45that's his dadit wasIt was an uphill slog.Yeah.But we got there, and I did remember it, and it actually made me appreciate something about the show that I probably wouldn't have been praising without this gap, which was for something that is so outrageously over the top, almost baroquely complicated, their visual storytelling language is pretty spot-on, sharp.Oh, yeah.They always, not just how good it looks, and the fact that they found so many actors who looked the same.way that they differentiate between eras and stuff like that?
13:23Well, just that if they're ever talking about someone at the end of the scene, they open on theperson in the next scene.Like, kind of, it's simple, but they don't leave you hanging.They leave you hanging in a way, but like they always resume the next scene on the faceof someone that has just been spoken about.It's that German engineering, baby.It is German engineering.The one part about it that feels distinctly American, and I don't remember this as being
13:45a problem in the first season as much, is that I worry that people in Germany have, youwatch too much American law and order.Because you know the law and order thingand it was a great Malaney bitabout how when the cops come to ask the bartenderabout their colleague who was brutally murdered,they're like, yeah, I gotta move these bottles over here,but sure, I remember him.
14:04You know, that whole thing where they like...When they go to the Gap and she's just like,I have to fold all these pocket teas,but of course I remember him.Like, I don't know how I would reactif I had traveled back in timeto avenge the kidnapping of my childonly to be arrested for child murder myself and then spend 32 years in, or 34 years in isolated confinement
14:24in a mental institution. But if the one person who I hold responsible for this came to visit me,I wouldn't be like, I must continue my solo chess game and only deliver Baroque statements.Well, I mean, let's talk after like month nine of quarantine. I mean, I have no idea what's fair.You might just be happy for the company. That's fair. So I am, I am, I am,to get into this with you.Have you gotten to episode six of season two?No.Okay.
14:53I'm at halfway through the season.You get to, like, I think that season two is very complicated.And when they hit episode six, it is like watching a like swan take flight.It is one of like my favorite episodes of TV in recent memory.So I can't wait for you to see that.I'm so excited about that.And hopefully I'll get there by the beginning next week.We can chat about it because the thing that I will say I'm still waiting for that episode to hit in season three.
15:16Well, I think there are some good.stuff in it, but they're really, really in the literal snake eating itself time travel thing.Well, that's the trick with these shows, and I'm very curious to see how it resolves it, becausewe love talking about season one, and we love the show. But in retrospect, you know, theexperience was about 50% of these actors are great, the thinking behind it is great, the ideasare great, but 50% was just that great lost-like feeling of wonder, where it's wide open.and they're asking these questions, and we don't quite know what it means yet.In the middle chapters of all trilogies are often the, you know, Star Wars Aside,
15:56the original Star Wars aside, can often be the least satisfying because you're holding the handof the opening salvo and you're just trying to get people to the finishing one.And so far the second season is so much about like the literal TikTok of TikToks, you know,and how it's all working.And so I'm still totally drawn to it, but it is, it's less, so far it's less pleasurable than the first season.Yeah, I think the first season was a very, was a little bit of a miracle.And I think that the second and third seasons are much more immersed in the internal mythology of the show.And I would say, and this is a good enough place as any to start with, I May Destroy You,
16:32the sort of dark being entirely about dark increasingly, like only about like,yeah, Mickle, Michael, this guy, that guy, we're going back and we're going forward.To then, and I, this actually happened the other night, to then switch over to something like I May Destroy You,which feels almost ripped from whole cloth out of, like, reality, out of, like, our current moment,is bracing and is only a testament to, like, I think the, like, pretty towering achievement that is that show,as I may destroy you.I like the segue a lot, and I agree with you, and I would take it a step further, which is to say that,when you said dark is at a certain point really only about dark, like, it is snake eating its own tail.
17:13It's about its own mythology and its own sort of internal logic.and that can feel totally immersive when you are immersed in it,but it can also feel a little bit clustrophobic at a certain way.Sure, sure.The thing that I really admire so much about I May Destroy You,which really comes out in this fifth episode,is Michaela Cole's ability to be fully committedand fully into the moment of her show
17:38and also in the larger cultural political momentof the world that we live in,but always be able to take a step back.Her eyes are constantly looking around outside of the frame.There's humor at unexpected moments.She pulls her own card, kind of, to use that phrase twice in one podcast.Sure.In a way that kind of is, it's really bracing, you know.
18:03This is one of the more provocative episodes of TV that I can remember.And definitely one of the more thought-provoking ones I've seen in a long time.And so I guess set the table for this.the episode is, I mean, I was about to just try to just like describe it and there's so manythings going on. But basically, the thrust of the plot is a collision between Arabella'shaving a public forum. Basically, the publisher who's going to publish her book has invitedher to read some unfinished words from the manuscript at a very prestigious event.Simultaneously, she is realizing that Zane's behavior when they began their sexual relationship
18:43in the previous episode is more than just troublesome.Yeah, and I think that it's worth...Worth maybe noting that, you know,just describing the plot kind of does almost a disturbanceto what is happening here,because to understand the level of writingthat we're working with, you know,the one question I did have it that I'm not quite sure about,
19:04and I've talked with a couple people who are like,I'm not quite sure, but she's obviously in the beginning,this is spoilers for I made a story you episode five.the episode's called Just Came Up.But in the beginning, she's on day 29 of her yoga challenge.Do you get the impression that she has been,it's a month since the assault or since she's met with her therapist about the assault?Or how long do you think that she's sort of, quote, unquote, been with Zane?
19:32Can I just, just to be clear, what day are you on of your yoga challenge?Just that frame the...Right.I believe that we are three weeks from the beginning of their affair.I believe it's said.I think that is actually said in the episode.Okay.So I wasn't sure if I missed that briefly.
19:51So they're kind of in the sort of early stages of what is more or less a romantic relationship.I mean, they seem to be spending a ton of time together.And I thought that the scene in which she wakes up and she's doing, she's had a dream about Biagio,she's doing yoga in the morning.And the level of attention she pays to theme in her writing is really stunning.You know, Zane comes over and she's doing these stretches.And he says, you're turning into a computer.And, you know, her reaction is like, oh, do you mean like an AI?
20:28And he's like, even though he is in her same age group loosely, his read of it is like,no, you're like an IBM and you know, where's your disc drive and, you know, he has like thiskind of almost antiquated understanding of, of computers, even in terms of like the way in whichthey are kind of a lifeline and a portal and a community for a lot of people. And she immediatelykind of, I think almost like, she doesn't really parry back, but she immediately almost divesinto that world. I mean, she starts flitting around and looking at different podcasts and shecomes across one that obviously articulates an uneasiness that she has had with Zane.But even in writing that out, and even in that depiction, what Michaela Cole is doing is she's
21:18showing that people may have like this attitude about a largely digital life. Like, you know,if you find a lot of your community and a lot of your refuge and resource online, that that issomehow not what you're, like it's not the same as real life. And it's not the same. And it's not the sameas going to Cambridge and doing all these things that Zane has done and kind of going the paththat he has done. But she immediately is finding the kind of sense of community that I don'tthink she finds in the real world. And she finds it in those podcasts. And she finds in thosepodcasts talking about message boards. And she finds it when she finally comes out and saysthis thing about Zane. She says the truth about Zane at this summit. And I think it's like to your
22:02point where it's like it's always like it's not quite she's a hero for doing this it is here's thewhole picture she's kind of transformed she shaved her head she's had this she i think her characteralmost goes through a transformation in terms of like the way she speaks in that summit is differentthan the way she speaks earlier and i think it's almost saying like here's the good and the bad of thisof this situation she is getting literal hearts that she sees you know coming when she needs thatuptick in community.Like, you see it.We're not necessarily supposed to say, oh, that's the same thing as actual love.
22:38She still can't be with people, but.And that's what I found so profound and provocative about the episode is because the showin many ways is about not having an opinion about whether IRL is better than online,but basically almost a, it's not a cry for help either.It's just a telegram to make it even older fashioned from a world in which what is real in our lives and what is real in our online lives are so uncomfortably, intimately on top of each other and intertwined that it's almost impossible to have a clear vision of either.And I worry is such a silly word.But there was a moment as the episode sort of crescendoed at this event and the moment goes viral.And it felt like a necessary and deserved primal yelp of this Me Too moment that was long overdue and is continuing to go on.
23:48But it also felt so, you know, with Terry being like, look, I'm a meme.Like, look, I'm going viral.my Twitter's blowing up, and the three people who could be talking about the experience,all searching their phones for reactions to the experience instantly after it happened,it didn't take a side.It just said, this is what she did, and was she actually triumphing over this guy?Maybe to a degree, was she triumphing over a real perpetrator, a concrete perpetratorthat is currently in the room that she could have a victory over, or the one that was arrested,
24:25or that may have been arrested, the suspect who has yet to be named or referred to again,that moment when Biagio, who the episode begins with a sort of romantic, touching memory of intimacy with him,him basically victim blaming her and saying, you know, you should watch your drinks, you're irresponsible,and her saying, I can't speak to you again.The way her face changes and she instantly seeks refuge in an online world where she's just being called a shiro,and there's like a purple heart, which in, you know, brilliant,comes out of the phone to sustain her.Yeah.
24:58I loved how messy and complicated it was.And how it clearly did give her something,but it wasn't necessarily what she needed.And the show isn't done telling us about that.Yeah.And I was grateful for that.Yeah.I mean,
25:13I think that the show,it goes through several pretty abrupt tonal shifts throughout the show,as do the characters.The characters themselves go through some pretty abrupt,like,changes in personality. I can't wait to see the second half of this season because I think it'sgoing to be, I actually just don't know where it's going. Like I really, it once feels very likeinvolved in the minutiae and day to day of Terry, Kwame and Arabella's lives. But I,
25:42you could tell me it goes anywhere and I would believe it. One thing that I also wanted to touch onthat just continues to impress me about the show and about Michaela Cole as a creator and writerand showrunner is her sense of the project,her just keen sense of the project that she is makingand what it is capable of.I say this because doing, you know,doing some post-mortems on my own season of televisionand talking to some of the writers,
26:11and I was reminded of things that I wanted to put into itor things that I'd hoped to put into itor things that I just, you know, thought we could get away with, basically.Because I had hoped to make a vesselthat was broad enough to support all kinds of stories.and all kinds of, you know, interesting political ideas or whatever and being reminded of times when Ioverstepped or almost overstepped and had to be talked back from it. And so it was just a,it was a personal reminder of like, there's not much real estate to do a lot of things thoughtfully
26:41and well generally. And a lot of shows go straight, not because, you know, there's a lack oftalent or ability or ambition, but perhaps sometimes there's too much ambition for what the showactually can be, given the circumstances.And so for five episodes into this show,all new characters, not based on anythingother than her own life and experiences and muse,that this show could have the space and real estatefor both Arabella's experience
27:07with the London Metropolitan Policeand the rape busters, as they jokingly call it.And then Kwame is in the same episode,in a similar room.It's subtle, but that was kind of breathtaking to me, to have the generosity of spirit,but also just on a practical level, to have the room for that storyline without taking anythingaway from the other storyline was really fascinating and a sign of her, not just her generosity,but her ability.
27:35What did you make of the Kwamey storyline?I mean, how did you see it kind of intertwining with the main, the A plot of Arabellaand Zane?You know, I think,When I finished watching the episode, I texted you, let you know I finished it, and I expressedsomething that I think a lot of people, and I think this is a positive thing, I should note,that a lot of people feel, which is this show makes me so uncomfortable.Not the subject matter, but watching it at this point.
28:07I'm in a heightened state of discomfort often.And the reason is because anything can happen.Everything feels risky.Everything feels as a moment with these friends.a moment in this city can feel vibrant and full of life and also terribly depressing and dangerous,right? And so...We didn't even really talk about episode four.No, that's right. And so this idea that there's might, in the way that it happened,
28:37you know, Arabella is being praised for handling things correctly and coming to them.And the way she responds to it is priceless, which she's like a good student.It's like, good, good job by me and good job by you.but that it feels almost like an incredibly fortunate chance that there was, it lined up,that she found the right place to put something and it was taken in by the right peopleand it's being processed in the quote unquote right way, even though she herself is not processing itin what appears to be a healthy way yet.Kwame tried to do the same thing, thinking that it would be available to him as well,
29:09and it wasn't.And it also was quite clear from that moment, maybe it would have been if he had walked in 10 minuteslater or a different day or a different station.But the vagaries of that moment and just the, just, you know, slippery nature of all of thiscan just as often, probably more often, have an outcome like his than so far what the outcomehas been for Arabella within the system.I noticed that the cop that Kwame talks to encourages him to go into a kind of an anonymityof like, you could have gone into a booth and done this and been anonymous.
29:45and the cops who talk to Arabella are so much more, you know, humane and sensitive about her experienceand, you know, the rape busters and, you know, the sort of like five degrees of difference thathappens, you know, when you miss that one, that experience and you have the other one is in someways, I think that she just does such a good job at being like, here, this isn't perfect,but this is an experience that people are having. This isn't perfect, but this is an experiencedebate. We're not here to judge one over the other in terms of like, you know, like you said,IRL versus online. But like this is the totality of like why people do these things and what itgives them. It's also probably worth noting, if not just outright celebrating, that the,
30:31the variety of black experience that the show presents, I noticed it that in that scene at thepolice station with the rape buster scene, Terry Kwame and Arabella are all,black and one of the two detectives is as well and one is not. And then both Kwame and the coptalking to him are black in that scene, the publisher. There's a variety of experience,black experience that's being presented to us that is very relevant to the conversation that a lotof media companies are having and a lot of creatives are having and consumers of content arehaving. And it's vital to see. I have as part of an internal industry conversation earlierwith a guy named Rashad Robinson, who's the head of an organization called Color of Change.
31:18You should check him out.He's holding Mark Zuckerberg's feet to the fire.And his group put out this really amazing document that I think is Google of Old.Basically, he did this in January, basically talking about how copaganda idea, like what shows about the police department or even shows like cops due to people's impressions in the world.And one of the things that they tracked within that is just the prevalence of black actors playing.judges on American TV.Right.In shows written, generally, you know,
31:48predominantly written by and created by white people,like dealing out justice along whose lines,but being, but the idea of representation,that's the extent of representation often or has been in mainstream media.Shows like this, they don't exist to be a corrective,but I think it's important to note when they exist.Yeah, so I, we'll keep talking about it.I may destroy you over the next couple of weeks.
32:09It's 12 episode run.It's interesting.I've heard a couple of people say, like,the 12 is a lot, but you and I have been talking a lot about what a season is and what the right andnot right amount is. I'm all in still. I think this show is obviously. We talked about it having thebelt. I keep saying, I started this episode and I was like, really, really 12? Because you keepthinking, how is this going to be 12 episodes? But then I don't think anyone had a firm handle on what the showwas or what the show was about, you know, and it's so fluid. And the way it keeps turning its attention
32:40to different characters, it's pretty cool. We don't know what it's going to be.We'll take a quick break. Come back with my interview with Rami Yousef. It was an awesome conversation.Quick question. Did you ask him about the novels of Larry McMurtry? Like, is he in on LD?That's Patreon content right there. That's, you have to subscribe.Really? Subscribe to CR for that one.CR substack? Can we get in on that? We'll be back on Monday. I'm sure. I really have like a specific thing.I guess we still have a little bit of time before we get into Dark Season 3. Maybe you can ask any Dark Season 2.questions you have on Monday, but we'll have a bunch of stuff to go on Monday. We have a guest
33:18on Monday, and then we'll also, yeah, full week next week. Because we're all about transparency,like I, I'm curious if people, I believe, just as I believe that our Zoomer audience is readyto read a 35-year-old novel about Cowboys, I think that we can take this week. Like, I don'tthink we need it to jump into Dark Season 3. Obviously, it's helpful to me to say that.It suits you, yeah.But I think the audience will be there for us.Let's hope.Let's hope, man.
33:48The takeaway here is I believe in the listeners.I believe in you.I will see you on Monday.Have a great weekend.Listen to this great interview.Stay safe.I'm so excited to introduce the Bukari Sellers podcastin partnership with the Ringer.
34:15We're tackling the issues of the day through interviews with high-profile guestand conversations with a rotating panel of the country's best and leading thinkers.influencers and writers.You know, I'm not only an attorney and a former elected official.Sometimes you see me on CNN, and I'm a new author of a New York Times bestselling book,My Vanishing Country.But now we're introducing the Bukari Sellers podcast, and we're going to cover everythingfrom the 2020 election to sports and culture to the larger movement for racial equality
34:46in the United States.We're going to have some of your favorite quarterback, some of your favorite politicians,some of your favorite athletes, writers, singers, actors, actors.actresses. The Bacari Sellas podcast will debut on Monday, June 29th. Listen free on Spotify or whereveryou get your podcast. Romney, thanks so much for joining the watchman. I love the second season.The show, I love both seasons of the show. And I was curious to start off with, obviously,it was made in a much different world in which it was released. So I was curious whether or notthe tenor of the feedback, not necessarily the critical reception, but the feedback you've
35:34been getting from, whether it's fans or friends or people you know, has had a different, like,kind of tone than other times when maybe, like, because I feel like people have really gotten achance to sit with it and think about it, you know?I've gotten so much feedback that's like, I needed this.Yeah.Like, like, it, like, it, like, it, like, it, like, it's in this, like, dude, thank you, man.Like, I'm like, but it has this kind of, you know, there's, like, drama in the voice a littlebit. It's like, thank you. And it sits different, you know. And also just, even with the
36:08environment that it's put in, there are things that were themes in the show. We talk aboutanti-blackness in the Arab community, which is something we talked about in season one as well,but we really hit on it in season two. The appreciation of the characters that we introducedaround Sheikh Ali and Zainab,it's oddly geared to things that are happening.We have this storyline with the character of my fatherkind of dealing with losing his job, you know,and that's something that so many people are going through now.
36:46And so, yeah, the emotions hit different,and it's been interesting, again,how many things that were just kind of ready in the DNA of the showwhere, like, sometimes you put something outand you're like,I'm not sure what people are going to laugh at,or you get the laugh at the thing that's unexpected.And certainly in this season,
37:02there are certain details that have become focal pointsin ways that we couldn't have imagined.Yeah, I mean, I know that, for instance,shows that would air weekly,you can kind of track the conversation aroundwhere people are in the season following along.Like, I always really enjoy watching, like, insecurebecause there's so much of like this like water cooler afterwards
37:22where everybody's hanging out.We kind of be like, I can't believe this happened.I can't believe she said that.But for your show, people are watching it in their own time.Sometimes they might be watching it on their phone in bed at 10 a.m.Because they don't feel like getting up yet.And I wonder whether or not you get like almost this non-chronological kind of feedback loop about the show because of that.Oh, yeah.
37:43Oh, yeah.I mean, I'm still getting.And I think the nature of binging and when people watch something, too, it's like, it's really funny because you're hearing about people loving something years later at this point from when you wrote it.Like now I'll hear something about an episode from season one.I'll wake up to a rant about an episode from season one yesterday,whether it be a loving one or a hating one,and you're like, oh, man, yeah, these boomerangs are just going to keep coming back at different times.Yeah.
38:11There's no, yeah, there's no timing to it, really.It's just like you're just walking around, pick up your phone,and you're like, wow, someone really just connected to something that I haven't thought about for a little bit.Or, oh, I'm getting a really random death threat.And in my mind, I'm like, bro, I put that out like a year ago.And time is so weird too, right? Because right now, it's like the show's been out for a month.Pandemic time is so wild, right? Like nothing even feels real. Where there's even a part of me that's like,oh yeah, like that's so, that's so I'm over it. Right. Right. Right.
38:42We're having a conversation about it right now, but I'm like, and it's only been a month,but I'm like, oh yeah, that already. That's the past. You know, so yeah, it's definitely an interestingrelationship. When you think about that relationship to the feedback, I was curiousfor you what the major differences are between the obvious tactile feedback you get from a stand-upaudience, you know, and you can see what's working and what's not working. And you also get that,like, that, probably that, like, soul explosion when you're like, oh, my God, it's working.Like, this is amazing. Versus my thoughts on Rami season two, a Twitter thread, you know.And they could be positive or negative, but, like, what's, for you, what are some of the differences?
39:26I always say that the main difference with stand up and the show is that with stand up,people had to put their shoes on.You know, like they had to put their shoes on and get out of the house and park and do all that stuff.Like there is this, there's this relationship that there's an agreement and there's a willingness.And there is, um, we've agreed on entering the same.space in a way that a show, it's just a click away and you can tune in to six seconds of it.You can tune into the whole season.You can do whatever you want.
40:07You could watch it because someone was like, look at this pile of shit.And you can just click on it so that you can pile onto that.You can illegally download it.I almost think if you legally download it, that might be the closest to a stand-up performancebecause you really had to search and you had to find it and you had to put on a, youYou had to like kind of get an IP blocker and whatnot and kind of like you're,that's probably the closest to a stand-up experience.Those people might appreciate the show even more.
40:34And so there's just a different relationship with the audience.And yeah, and there's this thing where a lot of this stuff you write it and you're like,cool, I'm going to hear the laugh or I'm going to hear the groan or the silence a year later,as opposed to stand up.I'm walking around with an idea right now.And tonight I'm going to get to try it.There's no rush like that.That is the coolest and it is the most interactive.
40:54It's the most emotional.But yeah, there's obviously pros to doing it on a TV show where the reach is global.And that's really been felt with this show.It's a really weird thing to like put this out.And we're like the top trending Twitter thing for a week straight in Cairo, you know,which is just such a different experience from what I would, you know, be out of the imagining and not possible would stand up.And so, yeah, there's big differences in how it's received and how it comes out.And it's been cool navigating that.
41:28When I used to write about music, I would often talk with artists and they would talk about,like, it was a pretty well-worn trope of like you basically have been working your entire life to do your first album.And then the hard part comes on the second one.Would you say that that was the same for Rami Season 2 and for the way you were almost approaching that?Yeah, there was definitely, I mean, like, you hear it in every facet where someone's like,second seasons are tough.You know, there's like a lot of that kind of thing.It's like second album, you know, and that was definitely a thing.
41:59And I kind of went into it feeling like, well, yeah, the first one got to be this anonymous out of nowhere.Who is this guy?We've never even heard of stand up.Oh, my God.How fresh.And in the second season, it's like, all right, well, it better be as good as the first.There's kind of this feeling.And I think from a creative standpoint, you're feeling like, okay, well, I need to keep the soul of what made it good.
42:21But I need to change things up because I can't do the same thing again.Especially with, to its benefit, how vague the first season was.Vague, I say in terms of what the character's goal was, he's just kind of like, well, who am I?And that's such a vague question.It's not really the script.And so I think we felt like going into season two, we needed to really put definition around that.And we got the best gift possible in being able to do that with Sheikh Ali Malik, played by Mehershua,because we get this force who really helps us sit in what I find to be the central attention
42:56around season two, which is, oh, this is who I actually am and that really needs to change.And with that comes a deepening of tone.With that comes more plot.With that comes certain things that I had wanted going into it, but now it gets to justbe so much more specific.And so it was really this fine balance, yeah, of like we're not going to do the samekind of soul-searching, naval gazing thing.And we're going to really dig more into real problems and like real
43:26instead of being aspirational, we need to be transformational.And so that was a shift for us.And I'm really happy that we made it.And it's been really cool seeing the reception to that too.Yeah, I mean, I think that for me personally, it made me ask a lot of questions that, like,typically I don't ask after a 29-minute episode of television.But the thing that it's been really cool about it is that I think that there are justso many different interpretations about what the character of Rami is looking for.
43:54I keep going back to this moment when you, I think it's at the end of the Mia Khalifa episode and you tell Jake that you missed him.And I was like, oh, man, like, this is a story about a guy looking for a place to put his love.And it keeps going in all the like, maybe not wrong directions, but like directions that kind of come back on him.Did you, did you basically leave it open for interpretation in a lot of ways?Because it's such a specific show.but I do feel like there are multiple different readings you can do about it.That's such a beautiful way that you put it.Because in so much it's about love.
44:32You know, like that's at the core of it.I mean, it was interesting me and one of my writers who on the show,Azar Usman, we asked our shape, you know, before we're making the season.We're like, yo, we're going to really step into this like shake storyline.What do you think?Like, what do people need to know?He was like, just love.That's all he said.
44:52He was just like, love, you know.And it's not like, yeah.like we run scripts by him or something.I would be too horrified to do that.I'm kind of like,I hope you don't really watch it.So we do a lot of inappropriate stuff.And he's like,
45:01you know,he's just like,love.And that's really what,I think that's such a beautiful read on it.But what I find from my show isthere isa lot happening.
45:12And the point of the showis to bring people closerto their own questions.That to me is,I don't think comedy should provide answers.I don't think comedy should provideany truth other than emotional truth.I don't think comedy should be about factual truth.
45:28I don't think it should be about information.I think it should be about bringing people closer to their questions.They're hard to put into words.So if there's something that comedy can do is that,oh, wow, can this kind of put some language around a feelingthat I didn't know I had?And that's it.To me, that's full stop where it ends.
45:45And because that is the goal of what we're doing here,how people react and what they react tooften says more about them than what we were trying to say.Because it really, like, I have just heard every single reaction to this showthat it just tells me about who I'm talking to.So someone could watch this and say, you know,someone who's very conservative could watch it and say,you are completely destroying the religion.
46:15But then someone else, I remember really clearly someone walked up to me on the street,this guy and he said, yo man, your show.made me want to be Muslim.It's all I've been reading about since I saw itbecause I knew it would be difficult,but it made me want to have that kind of difficulty.It made me want to have that.I made me want to wash.
46:32It made me want to do these things.It made me want to step into that.And so these are two totally different readsdepending on who's watching it.And so in terms of my intention,it's about bringing people closer to those questions.That's it.And so it does different things for different people.
46:48But my main goal with the Rami characteris to want to strip away his performancebecause I think that's the thing that keeps us from our questionsis us performing what we think we should be doing.He has a genuine desire for religion.He has a genuine desire for love,but he also is protecting himself by performing it.And he's not really digging into where he's actually at,
47:09and we need to strip that away.And so some people watch the whole season,and they'll be like, Rami's evil.And then some people watch it and they'll be like,oh, Rami's me.You know, that's me.That's like all men.And it's interesting to see that, you know, and it's interesting to see those reactions.
47:27Because, again, it says something.It says something about, I find sometimes people who react to his self-obsession with a lot of hate,the ones who I kind of know on a personal level, I'm like, well, I think some of it might be ringing a little true.Yeah.Like, I think there might be something.It might have hit a nerve, you know.You might not be as merciful and open as you think you are if you think this character is either.You know, and so it's been really cool.
47:53I think just to go back to what we were talking about in the beginning,this especially is a time when I think a lot of people are doing a lot of work on themselvesor at least they're saying that they're doing a lot of work on themselves.So that's probably like a really interesting moment for the show like that.I was curious, do you have that way you put it was great about like the idea ofarticulating a feeling that you've always had or that you have but didn't know how to say?Like, has there been a show that did that for you?Was there a show that you've watched over the years and you've just been like, I've always felt this, but now I'm like, I'm actually seeing it?
48:26Not on an emotional level, but it would more be small moments that would codify kind of certain political ideas or certain things like that.I remember, you know, watching John Stewart and being like, oh man, this dude is a Jewish guy from New Jersey defending a Muslim guy from New Jersey.that's how I felt. I was like, wow, he's really speaking to something that I didn't reallyfeel seen in. But so much of making this show was really me consciously and subconsciouslytrying to fill this void of what I wanted to see. And so I didn't even know what I was doinghalf the time. I was just kind of going towards something and I'd be rejecting directions thatthe show was going in. I didn't even know why I was rejecting those directions because I was reallytrying to get something that I didn't know how to say yet. And so we keep kind of going. And
49:16so much of my process is being like, it's not.not that. It's not that. It's not that. We're not going down that route. We're not going down that route.Not because I have the laser-eyed specificity of the route we should be going on, but it just becomes so, like, so much of it is defined by what it's not and what shouldn't be.And so a lot of this was born out of that. But there are moments watching TV where I just remember really connecting to things that, yeah, I totally felt it with John. I would oddly always feel sunny. I loved it's always sunny because I was like, they don't protect their characters and they're just their ego.It's just ego against ego.And I just remember watching the DeVito character against the Kate Olson's characterand just like kind of watching them go to each other and just being like,oh, this feels like family more than anything I've ever seen because it's so unprotected.
50:02And so there would be certain things that, and again, not that anything I've made in that tone,but there was something at the essence of what it was getting at that I just always really appreciated.And so there'd be flashes of that I'd be watching, you know,Yeah. No, it's always sunny as such an amazing, as an amazing comparison point because I thinkthat that is something about like the magic of that show that that is unremarked upon.Well, thank you so much for spending some time with us today, man. What an incredible seasonand stay safe out there.Oh, thanks for the great question. Yeah, take care.
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