The Watch - Missed Pop Culture Moments and ‘Better Call Saul’ S5E6. Plus: An Interview with Katie Crutchfield of Waxahatchee | The Watch

Episode Date: March 27, 2020

We draw from the mailbag to talk about some pop culture moments we feel like we missed out on, including ‘The Sopranos’ and rave culture (3:04). Plus: We’re running out of ways to say that Rhea Seehorn deserves an Emmy for her performance as Kim Wexler in ‘Better Call Saul’ (23:27) and an interview with Waxahatchee’s Katie Crutchfield (49:16). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly, and welcome to The Ringer Podcast Network. We hope The Ringer can provide you entertainment and companionship during this time. So as always, feel free to check out The Ringer.com, where we're still covering the latest in sports, pop culture, tech, and media. And the Ringer's YouTube channel can provide endless amounts of entertainment. You can find that at YouTube.com slash The Ringer. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch.

My name is Chris Ryan. And I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line. He is the basis of the Mesa Verde cowboy. It's Andy Greenwald. Buddy, you know, people might not know this. I don't know how we're going to share this, but we are back on vid. Our images are being captured right now. And as you were doing your intro, which was stellar as always,

thank you for bringing it, even in reduced circumstances, it never occurred to me that I could be the next guy who's giving a interview, well, a child comes in freaking and dancing in the background. I mean, that is in play. Here's the thing, Andy, me too, but I don't have kids. That's right. You just leave your door open. I'm just like, come on, guys.

There's a trail of Reese's pieces running through the east side of Los Angeles culminating in Chris's front door. Don't say that. It's cool, man. Everything's legal now. It's Thursday. It's the Watch podcast. We are still cranking.

I just want to say that today we are going to be covering the most recent episode of Better Call Saul, so Wexler versus Goodman, that was on Monday night's episode. We're going to be talking about the most recent episode of Briar Patch. That was also on Monday night

after wrestling on the USA Network. And we have a really fun interview that we recorded a few, I guess almost a month ago now, probably, right? With Katie Crutchfield from Waxahatchee, and they have a new album coming out. She's putting out a new album tomorrow called St. Cloud.

that is just absolutely stellar. And, you know, there's some stuff in the interview where I think we're talking about, like, her going on tour and stuff like that, that probably will sound, you know, not particularly... It won't make any sense now. But for the most part, I thought the interview made sense and talked a lot about eating barbecue,

but also a lot about making this record. And it's a phenomenal record. It's one of the best records of the year. And Katie is one of our favorite interviews to do since her second time on the podcast. We love talking to her. And I mean, I haven't revisited the interview since we did it. But, you know, I think you and I both had a little conversation about when should we post this. How should we post this? Because it honestly feels like an artifact from a different world because we were joking a lot and having a great time and talking about her upcoming live shows. Honestly, I feel like the album is so good. And I really think it's the kind of album that would give people comfort in their lives regardless of the state of the world. So we're excited to share it. We're excited to support Katie. And hopefully you guys enjoy listening to her as much as we enjoy talking to her. So that's the end of the show. Yeah, so we're going to have that interview.

We also, we open up the mailbag, and we got some great questions so far. And I think rather than doing a mailbag episode, what Andy and I will do is sprinkle them in throughout, like, different episodes. So basically, rather than doing like a full, here's 100 questions or here's 25 questions or whatever, we're going to just drop a couple of questions in. So the mailbag is open. Feel free to hit us up about anything from servicy questions about what you should be watching to more existential questions. we'll try to answer everything that we can. But before we get into everything, Andy, how are you doing? Oh, I'm great.

I thought one of the questions that we might get is, like, what are our personal regimens for washing our hands after picking up an Amazon package? How are you doing with that? You know, I have sort of a mixed media strategy. Like, there's definitely, I've done the, like, I think where I've settled, and I wonder if other people are like this, too,

is I like to keep my hands. hands in a state of near constant cleanliness now, which is something that we probably always should have been doing. And well, lesson learned. Sorry humanity about that. But what I kind of do is exist like they're clean because they are. And then when I decide to plunge them into a vat of the world, I go all in. Right. So if I open the door, I am now officially like Spanish Inquisition style unclean. Right. Right. I can do anything I want. I can pick up Amazon packages. I can run my hand along the railings of the steps outside of my house.

I could do anything because at that point, they are no longer part of my body. They are just- Stickers off of stop signs? Whatever. They are now the paddles that the fairy master to Hades, Karen uses, across the river sticks. That is essentially what these are. They are completely separate and apart from my human body. Yeah.

So are you pretty good at not putting your hands on your face then? I think people watching this podcast, you've already failed. But I have not really left the house today. So I've also scrubbed my hands multiple times. I can be, I think I've got a pretty nice little OCD switch that I can turn on and off, which I'm grateful for. I was thinking about the last time that I was sort of out in the world officially, and it was to do that final audio mix for the finale of Briar Patch.

and I was thinking about that night. And in retrospect, I did not, not take off my coat, I did not lean back in a chair for three and a half hours. When you say left the house officially, you make it sound like you're doing extrajudicial work. No, I just mean like took a car somewhere. Back bag stuff. Yeah, no, like, you know, sometimes I go out and I paint the office.

Sometimes I paint houses. Do you remember that show that was on last year, The Irishman? Yeah. It was a Netflix show. You were able to finish that first season, were you? No, but I'm looking forward to getting back into it. But there was something in the pilot, I remember, that reminded me of that. There was a guy, you see, I think he was up to no good.

I'm not sure, but I feel like he had a bunch of different irons in the fire. Maybe they should remake the Irishman for Quibi. Now you're talking. First of all, the major problem with that wasn't the length. It was literally the width. I would have preferred it in vertical mode for my phone. Yeah. Because this guy, what was his name?

The director, Scorsese. feel like he fills that there's just too much stuff. Yeah, it's like I can't look too far to my left or right. I don't have that kind of peripheral vision. Just like let's stay focused especially to time like this. We're just hanging on for Quibi, man. Is this podcast just now an elaborate

twice weekly sub-tweet of Sean Fantasy? I feel terrible about that. No, Sean's doing great. Sean's doing great. Sean's pumping out incredible content on the big picture, man. Sean texted me last night and said, we're doing great watching a lot of horror films. So, seems good.

Seems fine. How are you doing? Really, I want to ask you what I imagine most of our listeners want to ask you, which is, has that PS4 doing? It's still in the box. And I'm not talking quietly because I'm trying to obscure this for my wife. It's still in the box. I just haven't had the moment where like now I have the day in front of me. The weird thing about being stuck at home is that, as I'm sure you know now that you are a licensed and accredited teacher. just because you're stuck at home doesn't mean you don't have stuff to do. And like the kind of stuff that's always like 10, 20 minutes away, a half an hour away, I have not really found myself relaxing, so to speak.

It has not been a staycation. So I have not cracked the box yet. I will soon though, probably this weekend. And then what will be doing shows next week? The podcast will be over. Because I will become a professional FIFA player. we had a good run. We had a good run.

I'm very impressed by that. I'm impressed by your ability to do that. Anything else during your relatively small amounts of you time? Anything else gone across your transom that's worth talking about? Well, so here's the thing. I wanted to get into a question that we got from one of our listeners. This one came from Greg Pace on Twitter. And Greg asked essentially if we had any pop culture regrets.

Now, I think before in previous episodes, you and I had talked about pop culture blind spots maybe. Like for me, I think that I have a blind spot for the fast movies, like Fast Furious movies, because for whatever reason, even though there were plenty of stupid action movies that I like and plenty of movies featuring The Rock or Vin Diesel that I like, I've never really gotten into those movies specifically,

and I'm kind of like deaf to their, the sounds going off around them. But I think that the question about regret is interesting. Because what Greg was sort of asking, was, was there something that you wished you would experience the first time around when it was sort of popping off, that you now feel like whether it's the overwhelming amount of discourse around the topic or maybe like the context of the world is sort of changed and now, which it obviously has, and maybe it's not appropriate to get into something that you have like this regret for it.

I have a couple of things, but I think you could especially tie it into something. This seems to happen a little bit for me around these true crime things. like with Tiger King, which is the number one show on Netflix right now and is like really like any any pop culture website you go to has Tiger King content. People are casting Tiger King adaptations on Twitter. And, you know, I just, I finished that this weekend and I was kind of, I feel like in about a week, if you, if I, if I'd seen all this Tiger King stuff, I don't know that I would have been like, it's time to fire up Tiger King and see what people are talking about. So I wanted to see if you had anything similar where you have.

regrets because I've got a couple though let's start with you yeah I think there I think it's a great question and it's an interesting time to consider it I would say the things that I kind of wish I had enjoyed more in the moment include global travel socializing with groups of more than my family ambient physical contact those were things that I you know in retrospect probably should have availed myself more high fives definitely a lot of more high fives No, so I think that long-time listeners of this podcast, as well as people who used to read me when I was writing stuff, know that I have a lot of blind spots that I'm not particularly upset about. One is, as you said, like, I've never seen a Fast and the Furious movie. This has never particularly bothered me. I feel super good about my level of engagement with that franchise and awareness of it. But I would put things into two categories, just purely from, and I bet you're going to have a couple that I'm going to wish. I could have piggybacked on, but I'll put things in two categories.

One is, and this is definitely related to my tenure as the TV critic at Granlin, which was basically 2011 to 2015, and I was writing about TV a little bit for Vulture before that. There are a couple shows that are absolutely, absolutely without question, Rushmore or Hall of Fame shows for a lot of people. A lot of people whose taste otherwise dovetails quite nicely with mine. And I just missed them. And I missed them because I wasn't paying as close attention at the time. I wasn't as voracious of my appetites at the time. And these are shows that are also kind of tweeners because they weren't necessarily like the Sopranos, which I was a few years behind on and then caught up before it ended.

These are shows that really feel like they're from a different era in terms of the volume that they produced. And specifically, I'm thinking of shows like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Veronica Mars, Battlestar Galactica. these are three shows I've watched episodes of I think all three yes I have in my life I've seen episodes of all three but never with the completism of a true fan and so I feel regretful that I wasn't able to be part of the fandom in any real way at the time because the other part of it now is

and I wonder if other people feel this as well it just doesn't feel doable both because obviously I've you know as you mentioned I am a teacher now and you know Chris not all heroes work capes. But also, just because, you know, greatness now, especially now, you know, could be four seasons of 10 episodes each, whereas these shows came from an era of, you know, considerably more episodes per season with some clunkers that go along with it. And, you know, I just can't imagine. I know that you guys are doing at the Ringer, you're doing a new wire rewatch, which is an incredibly exciting podcast. Yeah, Van Lathen and Jamel Hill are going to do that. That's so cool. And I would

love to do that one day. And even that feels pretty unwieldy, to be honest. But, you know, engaging with something the way one could have on the ground level, that's something that I regret. The second half of it is I don't feel regretful about it. I just feel it's a blind spot. And that's something like, cover your hat. Chris is wearing a binge mode hat. Cover it while I say this. Apologies to Mal and Jason. I have never engaged in any Harry Potter media. I never read a book. I've never seen any of the movies. Have not gone to the wizarding world over at the temporarily shuttered Universal Studios for sure.

But that's because I was saving it because that's something weird. I mean, there's two things. At the time when those books came out, I was like, that's something I can choose to miss because maybe one day I'll have children. And then, spoiler alert, I did have children. And now I can pretend that I always intended

to share it for the first time with them. And that's something we're actually going to get into this year. That's my take on The Exorcist. You're waiting to have a daughter. No, I know what you mean. That's actually pretty sweet that you're holding on, you're waiting for your kids to be old enough to read Harry Potter. I mean, it's a little self-serving, too, because it allowed me.

I mean, I think people who listen to the podcast can probably relate to this too. I think Harry Potter in a way was the first major cultural phenomenon that I gave myself the freedom to opt out of because as someone, you know, we were the same way, like gobbling up all new media, new records, and reading entertainment weekly and working for magazines. like we kind of wanted to be in the mix. We wanted to know what people were talking about. And it was pretty freeing, even in a time with much less competition, to be able to be like, I'm going to sit a couple plays out here.

Sure, yeah. No, the point you make about Buffy and Battlestar and shows like that is really interesting because those were obviously, I remember going to get the DVDs of Battlestar seasons to catch up with it. I think I got caught up with it about a season or two before it finished. but that was also really cool because it had like those side movies that they did like the little mini-series that they did

it just didn't feel like there was that much competition for your eyes back then so you could kind of be like, I'm really into this. Every night, me and my significant other are going to watch two episodes, sometimes on a weekend we might crush four and I'm just going to kind of make my way through it.

And the enormity of the project was sometimes even an incentive. You know, if you knew that you had four or five seasons of something, that could be kind of fun rather than, you know what, if I'm being honest, am I really going to watch 50 episodes of this show? Probably not. So should I even start it? You know what I mean? And I think that that I'm kind of curious to know about people's rewatching projects or going back through shows that they haven't seen to catch up. You know, I think another thing that's really taken over that whole genre of watching TV is the TV as wallpaper revival with shows like The Office and Friends. being on Netflix on kind of a constant loop rather than I'm going to watch Buffy. And maybe not every episode of Buffy is masterpiece theater, but there's a lot of really good episodes there. And it'll just be like kind of what I do for a while.

I do have a lot of fondness and nostalgia for catching up when it didn't feel as breathless. Because, you know, for example, Sopranos, I think I, basically so my now wife and I lived outside of New York for a year. And during that year, we had a lot of Netflix envelopes coming to us. For sure. And that allowed us the opportunity to, I think we were about three or four seasons behind on the Sopranos, or three seasons maybe, and then burned through the DVDs, caught up. It was great. And similarly, you, Chris, deserve a lot of credit. You were a season one adopter of the wire. And I didn't catch up until I think after the second season had aired or something like that, again, through those DVDs. And it was thrilling. But I also, and I, and I,

But interestingly, looking back, I can't tell if I'm nostalgic for a time in my life when I had time to do that at all. Or if I'm nostalgic for a time when I didn't feel like I was still losing by catching up because there were 17 other things that would have been competing for my eyeballs at that given moment. Yeah. If I had one pop culture regret, well, for one thing, and I think I've talked about this before, but I hope a lot of people are just unsubscribe from the pod for me saying that it's watching The Sopranos. I've watched probably like a dozen, 15 episodes of the show. I'm pretty familiar with the overall beats. I obviously know how it ends. I feel like I know a lot of like the show through the increasing memeification of the show, but I never watched it from front to back.

And now I've always just kind of been like, I don't know why I have this trepidation for doing it, but I think part of it, I do have a lot of regret for not being part of at least one of the initial waves of watching it. I'm sure it would be really rewarding, but it's one of those things that it's such a strange feeling to feel like you phantom have watched a show when you haven't watched it. Chris, the thing is, is that for Tony, there's family, but there's also family, metaphorically speaking. It's the Italian mob in New Jersey. So he's torn a little bit between the two worlds.

The other thing that I have a real pop culture regret for is not more fully investing in rave culture. Wow. Because I remember really distinctly when I first moved to New York. I did this piece for Time Out in New York. And it was an interview with James Murphy, who would go on to start LCD sound system. And this guy named Tim Goldsworthy, who was an engineer and producer, who they worked together on this record label. And they were also a producing team called DFA. Very important thing in Andy and I's life. And I remember going to talk to them. I think it was at like Murphy's apartment somewhere in Manhattan. or Brooklyn, I can't remember. And the way that they talked about taking ecstasy and listening to going to dance parties, I was just like, that sounds pretty good, guys. And maybe one day I will imbibe in that, but I'm a journalist. And there's important work to be done when it comes to reviewing your work and others. And thank you, sir.

And now, in retrospect, it turns out I didn't really need the brain cells. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, fellows. I will enjoy my solitary Pab's Blue Ribbon this evening in the company of a few of my fellow soldiers on the Good Ship magazine. No, I mean, I did, I mean, like most people are age, like I did have my fun, but that kind of full-on investment into like,

you and I are not guys who went and saw Orbital, you know? No. No, we never went to see Underworld, if you know what I'm saying. No, we didn't, I mean, we went to see Underworld, but we didn't go to sea underworld. Yeah, you know what I mean? You probably interviewed them the same place I did. They had that office by plant studios in West 13th or West 14th Street.

And I had a similar thing. And this is not to diverge too much and to meet me in the bathroom core. But, you know, our friend Lizzie wrote that book. We had her on the podcast to talk about it. And it's funny, like I'm quoted a bunch in the book, even though I still believe that my role in that era was, some combination of a zealig

and castaway right because like you and we were there we went to a lot of these concerts we knew some of the people but even when something was I can't I guess what I'm saying is I could feel regret that we weren't even though we're I guess we're a couple years younger than

Tim and James but like we weren't seeking out raves we weren't realizing that it was okay to like punk and like dance music and then go out and do it yeah it's that even then when what they brought, what they brought their knowledge to New York, I can't say we were doing it either. Like my main memory of going to the Mishapes party was the one night when I went and they were setting up and it wasn't time to go yet. And then I went with another friend to a different party or bar for a bunch of hours and then remembered to go back to Mishapes where everyone was leaving.

And they were like, Madonna just DJed. I was like, oh. Yeah. Okay. So I guess that has helped me feel less regretful about missing that because I, missed it with both eyes wide open. Yeah, yeah. I just mean, like, in retrospect,

it just sounds like we could have gone out even more. It's hard to imagine because I don't remember, maybe this is through the lens of someone who has been inside for two straight weeks, but I don't remember... Officially. Staying in. Oh, no, I was true.

My wife and I often will talk about, like, what did we eat for dinner from the year 2002 to 2011? And the answer was pizza. Yes, at weird times. Yeah. Pizza at like 1130 p.m. Well, or pizza, you'd get the like 6.30 slice on the way to the bar, and then there would be

the other slice after the bar. You remember going to bars? Bars seemed fun. But I haven't gone to bars in five years. Wait, how old are my children? I'll date it. I'll date it to that. You're looking off screen like you have some assistant to tell you that.

I'm sorry, I'm getting it. Oh, it's been quite some time. Oh, I see. You know, one thing, and maybe people also doing the wise thing and being. safe at home would relate to is one of my favorite traditions of youth is exactly this time of year. Because right now

it's officially spring, but a couple days into it, which probably means for our friends on the East Coast that there is either it's just happened or it's probably about to happen. People have different names for it. I believe we used to call it tank top day. But there's the one day when it's like 59 degrees,

maybe going up to 60 or 61 degrees. Oh yeah. And people just like break out. It's just gun show time. It's like the age of Aquarius number in hair on St. Mark's Place. I used to just like roll out of classic in Boston when that would happen. Like with the t-shirt sleeves rolled up like I was Emilio Estevez in outsiders or something. Like, well, I was remembering. My favorite thing about that though is I remember and in my mind I was texting. But I don't know if we were texting at this time in our life. You probably weren't. But in my mind, I'm texting your now wife saying,

because she was working at Spin, and it was to communicate to everyone at Spin. We're going to go to the bar that has the outside garden today because... It's 56 degrees. Because it's 56 degrees with only a light piercing wind. Yeah. And that would be the whole point of the day. And then there would be the pizza before and after. And boy, we're slipping.

Okay, do you have any questions more about the present? Or should we slide into shows that we've been watching? Let's do Briar Patch. Not Briar Patch. Let's do Bribech second. Let's do Solve first. Wow, that was... Which one do you want to do?

Savage. Because we have a couple of questions from listeners about Breyer Patch. No, let's save those. Let's do, you want to talk a little Saul? Because I don't have a ton to say about Saul this week. I mean, how many times do you, can you just say this shows on another level that Ray Seahorn deserves whatever statues you want to give her? This was more of early season, Saul to me. You know, there was a lot of clerical, gymnastic work going on.

And hijinks. And hijinks. I guess I had a question for you as somebody watching this show. Yeah. What do you think Jimmy's long-term game with Howard is?

I don't know. I would say I don't know if there is one, but usually there is one on the show. That's sort of the show is generally about the long game.

I don't know. I mean, that was the one that was the one piece of the episode that I was the least thrilled with, not because it

wasn't funny, not because it wasn't played well by Patrick Fabian and Ed Begley Jr. More that it felt and I guess this connects obviously to what we're learning about Jimmy

which is this vicious street the resentment you know and the fact that it is not what I think he believes it to be which is like a sniper rifle that he can deploy but actually a howitzer that takes a lot of collateral damage but that it was just so

he's just trying to humiliate a guy he's just trying to destroy someone for his own is it revenge like Mike and Gus are up to I'm not sure I don't know if there's an end game and maybe that's that in and

itself is the takeaway. You know, it's interesting. I think because especially has become much more evident as like you spend more time indoors and if people are indoors with a significant other, like you're basically confronted with one person's behavior all the time. And I've been thinking a lot about like the interpersonal dynamic between Jimmy and Kim and how stubborn they both are in a lot of ways. But that ultimately Kim's stubbornness comes from a place of goodness, I think, of wanting to do good in the world, whereas Jimmy's is wanting to get over on people.

Yes. Like, they both want to win, but I think Kim wants to play the right game. Whereas Jimmy is almost indifferent to the game he's playing. He just wants the victory. Yeah, I think she wants to be good. You know, and I think that the desire to be good, I mean, that is in a really, I think, brilliant and subtle way, that's in the cold open where we see the flashback of young Kim and the relationship with her mother. And there's so much packed into that one interaction, one of which is the feeling of moral superiority that is baked into her for very good reason, right? But she sees her mother and is like, I'm going to prove a point that my virtue here outweighs my own discomfort, right?

That I'm going to walk home rather than reward you for your bad parenting, reward you for your bad choices. And of course, quite obviously put both of their lives at risk. And I just thought that that really flashbacks are so hard. You know, I've said before I'm against them. I didn't put any in Briar Patch. And one of the reasons I think they're so hard is because they're often very didactic. And I thought what was so great about this one was that it communicated a ton of information in a very light-handed manner and also set up something that played off of our expectations in a really good way. My wife is not in on the show. She's not really watching the show, but she was on the couch when I started watching it. And her reaction to the scene was she was riveted to it because she, like many people, I assume, thought that the last thing we would hear in the sequence would be the car getting into a massive accident. that this moment was the moment, right? And I think that's often the trouble with flashbacks

is that like, it's like, let me show you the psychic wound here. Let me show you the moment Bruce Wayne's parents were shot again and again because it can all be traced down to this one moment. And I love the restraint that it wasn't that. And maybe there were other moments. But this still it both so it was both gripping on a like what's going to happen in this moment level, but also really informative. Yeah. And also just like the idea of Kim being somebody who, who doesn't necessarily give up on a person who disappoints her. Necessarily. That's much more necessarily.

That's much more interesting to me than Kim is like this because her mom got in a car accident. Although we don't really know what happens to Kim's mom. So let's, I mean, basically fast forward to the end here. Like, what did you make of the last lines? I mean, let's get. I loved it, man. I mean, I thought, I know that there was some discussion. I mean, you can't really, you can't, I don't really feel like this show is even in the realm where people should be like, I'm so mad that Kim did this or I'm so mad that Jimmy did it.

And this is just like happening, like let it happen. This is drama. I think that those two impulses that Kim has about breaking up or getting married can often be confused for one another. And it was interesting to see them articulated that way. And yeah, it's somebody who is confronting. She doesn't want to be on that same loop. with Jimmy of getting let down by him. That to be a part of his life,

she either needs to be completely cut off from him. And I thought it was such a great line that Kim says, and we can basically like remember this fondly. What's the line that she says? Either we end this now and like appreciate the good times that we had, or we get married. Now, what Kim wants from that marriage, I think is up for debate.

What do you think? Yeah, I think that what it speaks to is this, something that we saw in that cold open, which is there's a stubbornness, right, that she can fix this. She can be in all places at all times. We've seen that. It's established in the character

over multiple seasons. Remember when she was doing May severity, doing all the work, and got in that horrific car accident, because she thought she could do all of it. And she thinks that she is strong. And she is strong, but she thinks she is strong

to the point of a kind of mania and a kind of blindness to the rest of the world. this seems very much like a car crash waiting to happen, right? That she can will this into something better than what it is, even after having seen the depths of who she's engaged with. The one thing that I haven't seen that I'm curious about, and maybe this is a good thing because even as I'm about to say it,

it sounds a little bit pat, like, is she trying to fix him in any way? Does she think that she can control him? Because clearly she can't. No, I think she's steering into the skid. I think she's steering into the skid. Right. Like life with you is going to come with, like, basically, like, when Jimmy's like, you know, I gave you plausible deniability, I think she's saying I don't want that. I basically want to be in on the con all the time.

Do you think this whole scenario gave Kevin and Rich and Page a plausible out from attending the wedding? Like, can they politely say thanks but no thanks? I don't know. If I got an invite to that wedding, I would go. just to see what the videography was. Oh, it's going to be rich with the green screen, perhaps. I did want to say, is the last thing about this episode. One of the really interesting things for me,

and this may be segues into talking about Briarpatch 7 a little bit, was just one of the really interesting things for me was watching the combination of artistry and magic trick that is acting in a performance over a period of time. And watching Ray of Seahorn be Kim, Kim Wexler in this moment, What was so thrilling about it was that every single gesture, every look, every intonation was true, not just emotionally true, but true to the character as has been established by her over a long period of time. And, you know, we haven't interviewed her, but I would imagine if we ever had the opportunity that she would probably speak about having so much to draw from so that it felt natural. You know, she's never been in that kind of scene before on the show.

She's never been on that kind of emotional, that really intense emotional ping pong match like she had with Jimmy in this episode. But of course, it was exactly as Kim. Her face when he's breaking out his DVD in that meeting is like priceless. I couldn't believe that scene. And I was, you know,

one of the things that I learned from talking to the actors on my show is the real difference they find, you know, between movies and TV, is that in movies, you know, if it's a two-hour movie, even if you're a big character, you might only work five days. You might work 10 days. Yeah, I don't know. You might be on screen for like nine minutes. You don't get many reps. And you certainly don't get an arc and you don't get to revisit and maybe try again with similar emotional

terrain. And so now, you know, I've seen every episode and every scene so many, many, many times from when we rehearsed it, if we rehearsed it, to shooting it to whatever. I was thinking specifically there's a moment in episode three or four when I realize now that Rosario, who's always amazing, was still finding the character. You know, and there's a reaction that I'm, that I think about as being something that she had in her toolbox already, you know, and it works. Yeah. And then I think about what's still to come on the show and the way she played other moments, even more complicated moments later, and realized just how connected they are to the time spent. And for all the times we, we give the writers a better call Saul credit for their long play and taking advantage of, you know, all the rope that their situation, their success and their network gave them.

the actors must be relishing it too. Yeah, absolutely. And what really impresses me is the way in which, you know, when we were talking about Kerb last week or earlier this week, I think I was like, oh, I could watch like, if Kerb was 35 episodes this year, I would have, if Saul was like 30 episodes this year, I would be so excited.

I have no issues with like the tempo of this season. But what's incredible is that even when there's a moment where somebody like, Nacho doesn't really do anything, he has one scene in this episode that we're talking about. And the way in which he talks to Mike, I was like, it's worth like five episodes of other shows. It's great. And it's because it's not just that scene.

It's everything cumulatively built to that scene. Also, thrilling to see them shoot that scene in the San Bonifacio town slaughterhouse. I don't know if you noticed that. Let's switch over to that. That looked very familiar, for one thing. So is that the warehouse where they shoot shows there? That's the rail yards.

Yeah, the old abandoned rail yards in downtown Albuquerque that is a phenomenal location for many, many, many, many productions. And I was having like intense flashbacks to the smell of what I believe to be like glass particulate that is shot through that place. Yeah. We spent a lot of time there, as you'll see in the next few episodes. So I wanted to ask you a couple of things about butterscotch, the most recent episode of Briar Patch. One was you had something on your Instagram this week that I wanted to flag for you, where you were basically talking about a scene in the episode, I believe, and you were like, this is the scene that like so far exceeded what I had in mind. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about what you were talking about there and give them some context? Yeah, absolutely. I was talking specifically about the last scene of the episode and the last scene of the episode, even for people, and by the way, you know, when we had guests to explain, production design and, you know, cinematography.

My hope is that even if you aren't watching the show, even if you aren't cut up, that there's some value here. So I can try and speak, you know, more generally. But the episode ends with a very, essentially quiet and intense confrontation between Rosario and Jay Ferguson's characters, Allegra and Jake. And it was something that was really important to me because to try and pull off. because a lot of the episodes and with really big swings, whether it's drones flying off into the night

or literally like the power going out, you know, coming as someone who really likes and admires episodic television, I want to leave people excited to watch more. And, you know, that's also the kind of thing that if and when the show is on a streaming platform, and hopefully it'll get people to watch the next episode. But I wanted to sort of launch people into the next episode in a big way.

I really wanted to do something different. And we really wanted to do something that was quieter and more character-based. But the thing is, how do you earn that? And so the challenge was figuring out an episode that kind of maybe had three other endings, one of which is the death of a really wonderful character, which I hated doing. I regret doing. That was from the book, although the context has changed a little bit. There's a great scene between Cyrus and Allegra that kind of gives away a huge piece of information

about her background that also could have been an ending. but I wanted to bring it back to these two characters because Jake is essentially absent from much of episode seven reeling from what happened in episode six and I kind of just wanted it to be about them and to literally end on a question. The episode ends with Jake saying just us and it was something that he's been asking for

and going through ridiculous machinations to achieve because all he wants is his best friend back, all he wants is this person who's basically the love of his life back on his side. And she arrives saying, okay, it's just us. I've got nothing left. And he's presenting him with everything he's ever wanted. And he's blown back like the guy on the cassette case from when we were growing up. Like, I've never seen this person. I was carrying around like we all do the sort of idealized version of the person. And like what,

I don't know if I can handle this. And his whole thing is bluster. And so basically, this is a long way of saying, it all came down to performance, you know, and direction. And Samira Radsey was a wonderful person and a really talented director got the scene, just nailed the scene. And I can. can't say enough about it. And Zach Geller lit it beautifully. Everyone came to play. But it ends up being about the actors understanding why this matters emotionally and kind of delivering on it. And I was joking to Jay and Rosario that this scene was like a masterclass in eye landing. And it's the kind of thing that we don't really think about. But now I think about it all the time, which is that first of all, if you watch actors in a scene, the best ones, they're not blinking. It's, it's

insane, but somehow they are so focused that they don't blink very often when they are in the middle of a scene. You can watch an episode of TV and see you that I'm right. Yeah. But two, where they put their eyes matters and it matters both for their performance, but it really matters for the editor and for the, for the audience, because eyes landing, like on the other person's eyes, feels like a cut. It feels like a natural rhythm. It gives a scene the natural rhythm. And so there's a moment at the end of this when Jay does this big, very, very, very sense. It feels like a cut. It feels like a natural rhythm. It gives a Jay Ferguson gesture and stretches and leans back. And then his eyes just one, two, three, fall.

And cuts Rosario and her eyes are elsewhere because she's sort of dealing with a enormity of it all. And her eyes go one, two, three, up. In a way, yeah. And there's that moment in between the two of them where so much is transferred between the two of them because it feels like Spivey realizes the emotional importance of the moment

and pick real. that she can't count on him at all. Like, that was my read of the moment, you know, and that there is basically, like, right when they're supposed to meet midway, she turns away because she realizes she can't count on the person she's looking at. Yeah, that maybe they are now together,

but what does that even mean to be together? Is she together with him the way someone thrown overboard with an anvil tied around her ankle is together with the anvil? It remains to be seen. But the other thing that I would say is, and this is the kind of thing that I would say to people who are writing scripts or interested in writing scripts too, I think about this scene as a benchmark for me. And let me first say again, this episode was written by Aisha Porter Christie, who is a wonderful writer and a wonderful person, an enormous talent and just got the voices, got the world. But, you know, in terms of my own growth as a writer, even if it was a rewriter or someone who was sort of shaping the shape of the episode to the degree that I did, so much. much of the first part of the season was still written in a speculative, like, are they really going to let me make this? Even though we've made one pilot sense. And I'm sure a lot of writers understand this feeling.

There was a lot of I feel, and certainly we cut some of it away and edit, but there was a lot of showing the work. There was a lot of, you know, saying it and then saying it again and then saying it in a clever way. Right. And one of the things working with brilliant directors and cinematographers and actors taught me is that, you know, yeah, this really is a visual medium. and sometimes you just have to place a bet. Yeah, like basically let the story tell itself. And let them do it. And you got to trust that they're going to do it. And that's really scary as a, you know, person doing this for the first time,

as a writer who wants to control the way it feels and everything. And this is one of those moments. And there's, you know, there's more. There's one in nine. And then a final scene in 10 that means more to me than any other where I just sort of, I pinch myself because they did it. you know, they brought it. And that's really gratifying. There was one question from our mailbag that I wanted to throw your way today, which comes from a guy named Dave Wheel Route. So Dave is

crushing some Madden right now on self-social distancing. And he asked, well, what was the Briar Patch writers room like? And specifically, did certain people write for specific characters more than others, a la Mike Scher writing for Jim Halpert on the office? Mostly curious about the collaboration levels and how much influence you had as a showrunner. Be well. Be well, my brother. What a great question. Chris, you visited the writer's room, so you saw the particular dynamics at play. Yeah, I mean, I think when I was there, I went there one day with Shay, Serrano. We dropped by. And the thing that really blew me away was the intricacy and level of attention to detail about plotting stuff that I think has to be, it has to go into the cake, even if, you know,

most of the viewers are only going to care about the icing. You know, so understanding how a character gets from one side of the town to another, if they here too-four have not had a car, something like that. You know, or this is an alley, what's at the end of the alley, and how does this person get out of the alley? That kind of stuff where you're just like, oh yeah, when I watched Born Identity, they just drive the car down the alley. Should we pull the lid off it?

As we determined in episode six, we just won't show you how Allegra got back to the But I think that that's fine. I think that that's fine. That was like a week of discussion. I was curious, though, with Dave's question here, did anybody handle the character writing of any particular character? Like with everything in a writer's room, the answer is smeary. It's yes and no.

You know, I brought the characters and the generalities of the plot and the way that they talk to the show. You know, the pilot was already written. But what's so thrilling when you get an exciting and diverse and interesting group of people together like you do in a writer's room, people gravitate towards what interests them. I mean, it's only natural that they would. And so Haley Harris, who wrote episode five, came to the show with a real passion for cop shows and procedurals and particularly for Kim Dickens, one of her favorite actors. So she really, really, really, really fought for Raytech. And I think that that's kind of a distinction worth saying, too. It's not necessarily that she wrote Raytech. We didn't say, take the scene. It's that she fought for her and fought for her point of view and for her storyline, you know, when appropriate and sometimes even when, when, not. I think Raina McClendon, who wrote six, had an affinity for Allegra. Wayning, who wrote episode four, was always there reminding us of Felicity.

And her emotional import to the story and the way she mattered. Eva Anderson, who's our co-EP, who was on our podcast a few weeks ago, she, you know, she was more senior. Lucretia is so much her. Like, she just understood what we wanted the character to be and just gave her her voice. So much of the lines that establish her are her, you know, I don't think Aisha would mind me saying that Lucretia is saying in 107, I'm 135 pounds of great A American honey. And I, that's pure Eva. And I can hear it when she says it. You know, the people just, Eve also like weirdly fell in love with colder. Like the people just have an affinity for certain

characters. My favorite example of this being Brian Brown, whose episode will air in two weeks, episode nine, cared more than anything about burgers and burgers, the fictional burger place that we saw in episode 6. And fought for it, fought for a very intense backstory for it that didn't quite make it into the show, but has made it into the Zoo Town podcast, which he wrote. And so I was joking with him today that it is the most him thing ever, that not only did he refuse to give up on a pitch in the room, he held on to it for weeks and months, and then put it into a podcast. So, you know, the, you know, the, The answer is with everything in a writer's room, it's yes and no. But I think it's a great question.

And I think that you couldn't make a show without that multitude of voices, honestly, because you're trying, especially a show with as many characters as this one. Yeah. That's a great answer. Well, we can wrap it up there. Episode 8 of Breyer Patch comes on Monday night. Can I say? Yes.

Obviously, I love my show. but eight and nine are very, very special and dear to my heart. And I think that people will really, really enjoy them. I'm really excited for people to watch eight, especially it in some ways was the hardest. And then in conception, and then once we got to making it, in many ways, the most smooth and fun that any of us had. I'm so excited to see those two episodes, too, based on what little I've seen in the editing room. And so we'll do those, we'll do eight next week, obviously. So we have a couple of guests coming. So we have obviously our interview with Katie Crutchfield. Just as a reminder, Waxahatchie's album is out on Friday. So definitely check that out. And two, we did that about a month ago.

So obviously, you know, it was a pretty casual conversation with no knowledge of what was happening in the world. Also, weirdly, the three of us were high-fiving the whole time. Yeah. It was a lot of, a lot of like, elaborate like college basketball team level high fives. I thought it was strange at like the midway point when you started licking your hand and then grooming me the way a cat cleans itself. But again, in retrospect, it's like, how did we know better? You know what I mean? Like it was a different time. I know. And then next week we have some really exciting guests. Andrea Reisborough from 00 is going to join us. That's my show. That's my show, dog. If you've been watching zero zero zero and you're kind of like,

damn, this is a lot. It is quickly rising to top of the charts for me. It is like probably my the thing I am

most impressed by this year and the run like five, six, episodes five and six of this show which include

a detour to Senegal and an absolutely bad shit episode set in Monterey are like indescribable how good they are.

I'm so jealous of this show. I'm so jealous of Mauritio who wrote the show because, you know, I pitched a detour to Senegal midway through Breyer Patch season one. It was supposed to be like, like, Steve Coogan's The Trip. Yes. The trip to Dakar. I, by the way, make that movie. Let's go back to when we were talking about things we wish existed.

Yeah. Steve Coogan in Senegal. Fun story. There is a new The Trip movie coming during this lockdown. Did you see that? trip to Greece. I did. That's on my list. I can't get enough of those. So Andrew Riceboro and also Chris Mundy, who's the executive producer of Ozark. Ozark season three drops Friday. It is very, very good. So all my Zark heads come out and play.

Are you going to grill him the way you've grilled me? You know, is he going to have a friendlier showrunner hot seat than I've had or unfriendlier? I feel like I've been playing. I'm like Maria Baratomo with a Steve Mnuchin here. What's her last? him? Barteromo? Bartaromo. The money, was she like,

no, Aaron Burnett was the money, honey, right? Listen. I feel like we're taking a detour to

Senegal right now. I'm not sure, but she was the one who was like very popular on CNBC in its early days. And now he's on Fox biz,

right? And now, and now mostly does what I was saying that you did to me jokingly about licking your hand and then grooming

someone to the president as her full-time occupation. That's right. So yeah, we'll have a couple interviews next week. I highly recommend people check out Ozark over the weekend. And we will come back on Monday. And we'll have a bunch of stuff to talk about.

Devs? Honestly, I'm here. I love talking about stuff. Once we finish the math problems of the day, I am all yours, buddy. All right, brother. Up next is our interview with Katie Crutchfield from Waxahatchee. Their new album, St. Cloud, is out tomorrow. Okay, Chris and I couldn't be happier to be joined by one of our favorite artists.

Katie Crutchfield of Waxahatchie. whose new record, which is incredible, St. Cloud, is released on March 27th on Merge Records. Katie, welcome back. Thank you guys for having me back. We're so happy to have you back. We love this record. We love talking to you. But already, I feel like we've cheated our listeners because we've essentially been podcasting for about 20 minutes now.

That's right. Primarily on the topic of water. Yes. Who knew? I almost like whipped out my phone and just hit record. This is just too good to keep away from the audience. It was gold because I think, you know, Chris and I are sitting here, obviously, with a lot of, like, you know, considered market-tested questions about the music business, about your new record. What was going through your mind when you were making this record?

Yeah, all the stuff that you love. The musicians love to talk about when they're promoting a record. And then you blow our minds with very, very fixed opinions about water, salinity, hydration theories. Yeah, yeah. And some, frankly, radical thoughts about big water. I, yeah, it's, which we're not going to say on this podcast. I walked in here with an X-L. Ascentia, which is a powerful statement.

And it's no free eyes. You're just, you're an evangelist, but you're not a paid endorser. Exactly. I believe in it. Yeah. And to be clear, that was the extent of your retinue. That was, that's who you rolled in here with. There's no one else.

Just me and my Ascentia, yeah. Yeah. You and your water. I feel like I've backed myself into a corner because there's just like there's no good water stance to really take. Essentially sounds cool. But like if you have like highfalut and taste, you're just like, why are you paying that much for water? And then anything beneath a certain level, you're like, you know you're essentially drinking pure sodium.

Yes. Just like a packet of sweetener. Exactly. And it's just, I'm in a tough spot. Personally and politically. I just feel very, very comfortable having a musician interview that is primarily about proper hydration. I feel like this is the speed I'm at in my life. And I think that's fantastic.

Honestly, I've been like, you know, just really doing a lot of press lately. And so talking about anything else is fun for me. But I also am down to talk about the record, too. Which we will. Talk about it all. But I also have to say what's great about this is I'm sure during this press tour because this has been part of the story of the record was your sobriety. Instead of saying something that you've taken away from your drinking life,

we're just talking about what's been added. Exactly. It's a whole new world. It's a whole new world. It's not reactive. It's just it's positive. It's positive. You're putting stuff into the world, putting stuff into your, this is great.

Yes. Okay. We can return to water. Sure. But for now, I do want to talk about some of the more physical. physical real world stuff that led to this record, specifically when we spoke to you last, for your absolutely incredible previous record, incredible in a completely different way, which is so exciting out of the storm.

You had just, I think, or you were about to pack up and leave our hometown of Philadelphia? I think I was about to. You're about to. I have since done that. And moved again. And moved again. Yeah, I guess so. I guess it's been a while since I've been here.

It was so funny. I was thinking coming in here. I was like, I honestly barely remember my own name right now, so I really don't remember what we talked about, what we didn't talk about. So you guys might have to remind me. That's fine. But, yeah, I guess right around the time we last spoke, I was getting ready to leave Philadelphia. Okay. And at that point, then you moved to Alabama.

I moved to Alabama. Yeah. But now, buckle up, listeners. Now you're in Kansas City. I'm in Kansas City. What a crazy trajectory it was. Yeah. Because Philadelphia to Kansas City is well-trod territory.

You're following the athletics, I believe. Yeah, Andy Reed. Yeah, exactly. Well, that's the other one. So the question is, are you doing the athletics tour and you will next move to the Bay Area? Or are you doing Andy Reed where you will just stay put and do the best work of your career? She's just following Super Bowl championships. She's a ring chaser.

I'm a ring chaser. Then she goes to Kansas City. In a couple of years, she'll be like with Joe Burrow in Ohio. Like, I've been living in Ohio. What are you talking about? I know. Honestly, like, if you follow me, you will know who is going to win the Super Bowl. That is really what we're really.

That's kind of amazing. Would you ever predicted that about yourself? Never in a million years. I mean, I'm from, like, pretty magical football territory, just from being from Alabama and, you know, like watching the Crimson Tide for my entire. I mean, the year that my sister, if we're going to really dig in here, the year that my sister moved to Tuscalusa was the year that Nick Sagan also moved to Tuscalusa. Coincidence? I think not. I think not.

I think not. Since that, yeah. Yes, exactly. That would be cool, though, because, like, you know how Ken Burns is. documentaries always start with like in 1997 Allison Crutchfield moved to Tuscaloosa and so did a football mind from like he always has those like notes like Carl Marx was right in during the Civil War and stuff butterfly flapping its wings in Tuscaloosa leads to something happening in Kansas

City something happened and that look at us now yeah totally yeah that was I'd like to say part kismet part coincidental but you know I'll take a little credit yeah I think you deserve it So how long have you been in Kansas City for? Almost two years, I guess. My move there, it was sort of a soft move. I moved to Alabama and had, like, big dreams of really planting roots there and buying a house and just kind of getting back to the south. And that was cool. It actually led to a lot of what happened with St. Cloud and kind of the direction that I took.

But it just wasn't quite right. I just never fully was ready to go all the way back. Just anyone who goes, I mean, you know, anyone who leaves their hometown when you go back. When you go back, there's beautiful things about it and it's nostalgic and all this stuff, but it's also all the reasons that you left are still there a lot of the time. So I started dating someone who lived in Kansas City. He was actually when we got together living in L.A. And then he moved back to his hometown, which is Kansas City. And I just sort of slowly found myself there for longer stretches of time.

And then eventually I just, you know, live there. Does Kansas City remind you of any other places that you've lived before? Or like is like Kansas City in 2020, like Philly in 1999 or 2010 or whatever? Like is there is it, is like a fun place to live? It's like totally a fun place to live. And I think I got just from traveling so constantly for a million years. I was so jaded about every city. I just was like, show me a city that I'm going to like.

Like I dare you. Nobody can because I just, I was so negative about it. And so sure that I just wasn't going to fall in love with the city the way that I did with New York. and Philly and I weirdly just found myself. I started going to Kansas City a lot and was just like almost rejecting the idea that I could love it, you know, just like, oh, I know myself well enough to know I just eventually am going to feel disconnected from the city. And yeah, that just didn't happen.

I ended up actually loving it. And it is really cool. Nice. Yeah. Is your love primarily barbecue-based or barbecue-adjacent? Barbecue adjacent, but also, I mean, yeah, I can't even tell. I mean, I'm from Alabama. I love barbecue.

Yes, a serious. But a different style in Kansas City. It's a different style, and dare I say, this is controversial, but dare I say, it's my favorite style. Oh, wow. Kansas City is the mustard-based one? That's Carolina. That's Carolina.

Yeah. So what if, boy, this is, this is great. All I ever want to talk about on this podcast is hydration and food, and we found our dream guest. Perfect. What distinguishes Kansas City barbecue? what makes it better in your mind? Well, there's some, the way that they do ribs is different than in Birmingham, but the main

thing is burn ends, which is, that's the special Kansas City thing, that I've eaten that, Chris. I don't think I've ever rocked boots. I went to once. And it's funny, actually, in the same way that I feel about Birmingham barbecue, like my favorite places in Birmingham are hole in the walls, but they're kind of newer. They're not the old school places. I do like the old school places, too, but it's exactly the same. same in Canes City. There's a couple spots that are newer, and they are doing barbecue really well.

Incredible. So food aside, and I think that is the main driver to live anywhere, honestly. But I am curious, what does it mean for a touring musician such as yourself to live anywhere at this point? Because you are, as you said, your life is on a, I mean, hopefully at this point it feels natural to you, but from the outside, it's a unnatural cycle of being planted for a minute or a year or two, obviously up to you and your creative process, and then you're suddenly in rooms with jokers like us talking about it and then touring around the country playing rooms, seeing people who you know but see every X number of months or years. So how do you determine where that quiet place is going to be and what does it mean to you in the larger context of your creative process?

It's interesting because I feel like those were big questions I really had to ask myself in the last couple of years. Well, I mean, to just go back to the beginning of the question, I feel like the cycle of it all is so natural for me because I've just been, I haven't not done that since I was a teenager. So I'm just so used to all the traveling. And in fact, the slowing down part is the part that I always struggle with. And I feel like a lot of musicians do, just that when you have to actually like wake up in the morning and have a normal day at your house, it can get really dark and really confusing and really just like, like restless. And in the past, it's been really hard for me.

And I knew kind of toward the end of the out-in-the-storm cycle, that's like right when I got sober, and I knew that I wanted to really take my time with the next record and the direction that I wanted to go and basically do like a very big overhaul kind of like reinvention sort of thing. So I just sort of had to like stare directly at that quiet time. I knew I was going to have to figure that out in order to make a record in order to like really just like regroup and take care of myself. And so, yeah, it's almost like, I feel like Kansas City ended up working out so well for me because I didn't make any sort. It's almost like I couldn't look at it. I just was like, oh, suddenly I live in Kansas City. Like, I'm not going to like make that statement. I'm not going to like make any big to do about it.

I'm just suddenly I exist here. And then over the last, by the time I tour again in April, it will have been 14 months since the last time I toured, which is by far the longest I've ever gone since I was probably. 16 years old. And honestly, like, I really feel like I did the work to get excited about the quiet time. Like, now I'm ready to go on tour, but I also really appreciate the quiet time. I'm really fascinated by the way you're talking about the quiet time, because I think that for those of us outside of your world and outside of music and songwriters, especially when we're talking about it or when we used to write about it, there's always an element of, like, magical, magic thinking to it, right, where it's like, and it's a little bit actually even in the bio of the new record that

Merge gave us where Fire is the beautiful song that you've released already from it. You know, you described the melody coming to you. And so I think from the outside, that's songwriting. Hey, perfect melody descends from the heavens into the perfect vessel that was waiting for it. But I love hearing about the other half of it, which was embracing the quiet time, thinking about how you're spending it, focusing, and also, as you said, wanting to do something different. So what did form do that actually take when you decided you wanted to do something different and then being both open to whatever tumbled out of the heavens but also rigorous about pursuing it?

Yeah, so it's funny. I mean, a melody tumbling out of the heavens is exactly how it works, but that only happens about 0.0001% of the time. And the rest of the time is just wide open spaces where you're just waiting for that to kind of happen. Yeah. But yeah, so the first few months of it was almost like a little bit forced of like me sort of telling myself, this is how you like remember, this is how we write songs. Like we shut everybody else out and just get in there and don't worry about it and it'll happen.

And then of course it didn't. And I was sort of struggling with writer's block and had a lot of creative energy but just not, wasn't able to put it down in any way that felt correct. And then I had this tour with my first. friends in this band Bonnie Dune, they were going to open for me and then play as my backing band. And I had known, well, A, they are like my favorite current band. They're so good. And B, I had kind of known, I want this next record to have more of like a softer kind of Americana-leaning sort of sound to it, super different than Out in the Storm. Like, you know, out in the storm so

much atmosphere and so like raw and loud and I want this to feel really trimmed and like clear and just nothing happening that doesn't absolutely need to be there like a lot of space. But I didn't know how to do that. I'd had no of, I'd have none of the right players or people kind of put in place. So I had this tour planned. I've been just banging my head against the wall trying to write these songs and figure out how to get this sound, this magical, like inexplicable sound that I, you know, didn't know how to make happen.

So we start rehearsing for that tour. And it's like the moment we start playing together and I hear my old song sort of interpreted by them. I'm like, I found it. This is the sound. And just as soon as I started to like get them to like try some of these new songs I was working on. And it just was so perfect. And really kind of the moment that happened was when I, it really inspired me and led me to kind of write quickly and have clarity over what the sound was going to be. And, you know, we started demoing together a bunch.

And so, yeah, it was like kind of the first half was frustrating and me just, like, praying that something good would happen. And then we started jamming together. And from that point on, it all just kind of fell into place. As you decide for yourself that you want to come up with a different sound for the music that you make, does it change what you're listening to? Yeah. Or, you know, it might be the opposite.

So you were changing to and you switched to your, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I think that it's kind of more. that. Or just they affect each other. Sure. But yeah, I think I was, I was really shifting around what was influencing me and that really led to the sound. So what kind of stuff? I mean, like, I know that I've read in some of other interviews you've done and like obviously just like listening to the record, you can feel like car wheels on a gravel road there and you can feel like wrecking ball

there. But like, were there records that you were going back to a lot before this kind of started to roll? Definitely. I think the things, the three big things that were influencing me and then I ended up kind of leaning more into the, like, Lucinda stuff was Lucinda Car Wheels. And the newest, but still not new, Fiona Apple album, um, Either Wheel, that just lyrically was really inspiring me. And, um, Siza control, that record. Those three things, like, I feel like I really wanted to have a vocal moment on the record. I wanted to feel like my, I wanted everyone to kind of feel like my voice had, had graduated beyond maybe like this sort of quiet indie rock thing that I was doing. Because I was really feeling like that was one strength that I was gaining.

So I was really practicing to Siza. I was just like trying to like follow her melodies and just as an exercise. But those lyrics on that record are unbelievable and same with Fiona. And so that all of that stuff was really inspiring me. And then when we got in the studio and the sound was really feeling like Lucinda-esque, Emily Lou Gillian Welsh or all that stuff. Yeah, I really leaned into that. It was exciting to listen to you, and it's absolutely, I mean, your voice has never sounded better.

It's really phenomenal on this record. Growing up, you know, whether it was in our era or your era, like with punk rock, like the volume and brashness feels like the most exciting and most confident and bold and brave thing you can do to get up on stage. As I guess as we get older and we listen to different music or we just get older internally or externally, depending. Depends on water. Yeah. Sends on water you're putting in your body. There's nothing, I think, more confident sounding than quiet in space. Yeah.

And mastering that space and choosing how to fill it. Yeah. There's this confidence that comes with that that is just all over this record. And it's interesting that you connected to Out of the Storm, which I think is one of the best rock records in the last few years. And it's a rock record. Totally. And it's not so much that this is a refutation of it. It's just a different step on this, on your career journey, obviously, but also in your, I would imagine.

in the confidence that you feel using your instrument on record. Yeah, I mean, I feel like it's two sides of the same coin, really. I mean, without In The Storm, I feel like it was, I was just trying to communicate an anger and sort of a super urgent emotional moment. And I did that by making the guitars loud, by making it have, like I said, like a lot of atmosphere, a lot of stuff going on and for it to feel sort of claustrophobic and just super urgent. That was kind of the intent behind that. And with this album, I just feel like, you know, it does kind of have that same sort of confidence, but there's an ease to it.

And I really think that the clarity and having the vocals right up front was just how it felt like the most natural to communicate that. There's a, I mean, there's a swagger to both records, I think. But yeah, there's something very different in the voice in this record. And do you describe that to where you've gone? on in the last few years, not physically because we've covered that. And it worked out for Andy Reid. I did. But just in terms of where you are in your life making this record.

Yeah, I would say so. I would say so. I mean, I think, you know, the last few years I've done a lot of work on myself. I feel like I've done a lot of the stuff that people do when they, you know, go through such a big change like being sober like we were talking about. and I feel, you know, I've let go of a lot of the stuff that was really, you know, weighing on me during the Out in the Storm era. And I just wanted that to, I feel like I maybe didn't intentionally, like, think that that would affect St. Cloud so much. But just listening, A, Bing them. And I feel like when you put out a new record and you're talking about it, it's very natural to A, B it with the last thing that you made.

Yeah. It's a pivot. Exactly. Or at least it's in a conversation with it. It's in a... Exactly. And so I feel like as I kind of am doing that just naturally through talking about all this stuff, that's the big thing that I'm feeling.

It's like, oh, it really does feel like there's an ease to this album. It feels like a weight has been lifted. And that's cool. I want to... A lot of stuff's been coming up. Like, I want it to feel that way. And I want people to hear the album and think, like, oh, this is a cool record and it's not completely tortured. Like, I think that...

That's something that I've been really thinking about is like the concept of the tortured artist and like the sort of all the unhealthy shit that comes with that, you know? Right. And I just have been finding it really empowering to be like, okay, I feel like this is my best record and I'm really psyched on it. And I was in like the healthiest place I've ever been when I made it. You know what I mean? Like I just think that trope of like, oh, you know, this person is so tortured and so dark and so sad. Granted, amazing art. It's undisputed that amazing art has been made when people are in that headspace, but I just have, I found it cool to sort of maybe prove to myself that you don't have to be that dark to make a good record.

Has that kind of awareness changed, not to go back to what you're listening to, but has it changed the way you feel about certain artists like trajectories or like biographies or discographies? Because like I always get really into like, I was just talking about this the other day with like how astonished I am at how like Nick Cave just gets up. every day and writes songs and like puts a record out every 15 months or 18 months and like no matter how dark it is or what's going on in his life but he obviously was somebody who came from such like a tempestuous early days and is really like a working artist now and I almost have like this a ton of respect for that yeah because of like the discipline it must take to just kind of like grind away at being a cave every day and still find something new to say and a new sound to use and a new set of it like musicians to work with like that does it change

how you look at some of your favorite artists at all? I don't know. I mean, I do think that that is the most inspiring thing the world's made. Just somebody who has been at it for so long, for so many decades, has found something inspiring to say in each sort of era of his life. I think that that gives me hope that I will continue to make music. And I think that... Even when it's just like we're just making TikToks for people like 30 years. Oh, God.

I know. That's the thing. It's just like, I guess I'm going to... be on that train too. So just like everybody else someday. But no, I think about, I mean, like, I've said this in another interview recently, but I think about, there's like a few years ago, Brian Wilson made this album where he's just basically talking about, like, being old.

And I love that so much. Like, I want, I want that. I want, like, to find inspiration because people will connect with that, you know? And even young people will, like, hear that and it'll open their minds to that experience and to what to anticipate in that. And just, I don't know. I just think it's really beautiful. And I, so yeah, I, I feel like with other artists and how I feel about their trajectories and things like that, I don't know.

I mean, I haven't really thought too much about that, but I do, like what you're saying about Nick Cave, I really feel. Because, like, I think I was younger, I romanticized, like, you know, looking at, like, pictures of the stones making exile. And you're just like, fuck, yeah, that's incredible. You know what I mean? As if that was an endpoint, to aspire to, first of all, to aspire to, which is dark. Yeah, it's very dark. But also that that's everything they had to say or do. Clearly, that's not the case.

But I think it's interesting to think about it in terms of longer career, how limiting it would be to only be able to share one part of yourself. Right. Limiting and potentially worse, punishing. I mean, it can be a gilded cage, I guess, to be the sad person for someone or the angry or whatever, to be limited to one emotion. But to be able to find a relationship with your art and then ultimately your audience where you can be the fullness of yourself, I feel like would be the goal and potentially the most sustainable version of it. Totally. And I think that, like, you know, with my earlier albums, I was really sort of starting to find myself, writing myself into a little bit of a corner and sort of being pigeonholed as like a sad artist. Like, that's the emotion. That's the thing that people sort of associate with me.

And I feel like without the storm, I was sort of trying to break out of that a little bit and sort of that album felt very angry. And then with this one, I feel like I'm getting closer to what you're saying, sort of being able to share like the full spectrum of. But it's interesting to hear you say that because that's absolutely something that music journalists do, and I don't mean that maliciously we did it too, or just the culture in general, which is put people into the most extreme box that you can understand them. So an album is the drug album or the breakup album or whatever. The sobriety album, yeah. Right. And that's what this is, right?

Or similarly, like, you are a sad artist or this artist or whatever. And none of that has anything to do with, because this has never been really part of the conversation and it's not as romantic. or sexy or pictures of the stones, you know, strung out in France, to be like, this is the album where I wanted to push myself and write songs on the piano, or this is the album where I wanted the sound to be this, because, and I often wonder about your perspective on it from the other side of the ball, which is none of the people who, okay, very, very few of the people, okay, I'll use eye statements. I have no idea how to make a record. You know, I don't, I could, I could play a decord, and that's about it. And so the work that you do and what you're thinking about

often is not what you end up talking about, right? Because what you end up talking about is the feel of the product in a very different way, which I think is kind of my long-winded way of saying the same thing that we were saying a moment ago about being limited to one talking point. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I imagine like, no, I mean, I interrupt, I imagine you think this record and you think about like where you recorded it and like what happened on the Wednesday when you were in there and then like it gets processed out in the world and people are like, let's talk about the emotion. state of mine from like a 19 month period that somehow like was summarized in these 12 songs. Not just that answer for it.

Yeah, right. Well, that's the thing about that that that I have to say that I've really been feeling about that particular thing is that this is my fifth album. So I've been around the block sometimes. And I was 1,000 percent anticipating that experience. I knew, okay, in order to tell this story, I have to talk about my sobriety. And I'm okay with that. I feel like it is a really personal thing.

It is a really fragile thing. And a lot of people don't like to talk about it. And I feel like I'm okay with it because it's part of the story. And it also, I know when I was really struggling, that was something that helped me was to know that, oh, this person I like or that I look up to or whatever was able to get sober. And that made me feel like I could probably do it too. So that's one thing. But I think, you know, I just knew. I mean, I knew that I was going to have to talk about it, and that I was going to, that people, I know how music writers work also.

Once again, like, I'm not a music writer, so I, it is very much so the other side of the ball, but I know enough to know that music writers like to have a story and they like it, they like to, I knew that my record was going to go from this kind of vast, complicated, you know, array of emotions and experiences and, you know, from making. it to what the songs were about and how different the songs are from each other. I knew it was going to sort of tighten up into this like package. Yeah, be boiled down, exactly. So not to put you on the other side of the ball. It was all caveats for humility as required for you. What do you like about this record so much? Because we love it and we'll talk about it happily.

But what's exciting is just even as you're talking about the making of it, and this is an audio-only format, so we'll describe it, but you seem really happy. And you seem excited about it. And so what makes you excited and happy about this record? What are the moment songs, the whole thing that ring out in your ears while you're talking about it? Well, I think one thing is that I've always, maybe it's coming from punk and DIY or whatever, but I feel like I've always been very quick to compromise on creative stuff. And sort of, I feel like the older you get and the longer you've been doing it,

like you sort of slowly chip away at that and get clear and clearer on your vision and sort of more and more committed to that. And I think this is the first record where I got. that in every single avenue, I really kind of hit the bullseye of what I was aiming to do. And I did that without any struggle. Like, I think I had the time and the space I needed to really put the correct people in the room along every single part of the journey. And that just led to really, really good results. So I think, like, basically it's the closest I've ever come to really nailing what I was trying to do. So I think that's why I'm just like when it comes to the artwork and it comes to the, you know, the studio we recorded in and like the producer, that's, that was so big.

My, you know, main collaborator on the album was Brad Cook and he's like one of my dearest friends and truly just like my soulmate as far as producers go. Just we really hit it off and did so much cool stuff together and all of that stuff just I feel like every single box was ticked. And you guys recorded in West Texas? Yeah, we started it there. But it's interesting. Like I really worked with the band and with Brad on the demos and stuff. So I feel like we were all together in Durham for a while. And then we went to Texas.

And then Brad and I went to upstate New York for a while to finish the album and to like kind of do all the vocals and all of that stuff. Oh, wow. Yeah. So it was actually kind of a bit of a drawn out process making the record. Yeah. And when it's time and it is time now to go out and play these songs, does it feel like a new version of the band and you because obviously as you were saying you made a very loud record last time and then you had this sort of interregnum with different collaborators and sort of helped you find a new focus what is this

new new version of you live feeling like how how is it different well i haven't done it yet so it's hard to say but by the time this drops it totally done great great stuff um it's gonna be cool i mean it's interesting because to me i'm so excited about it and i'm like this is the best the band's ever going to be, you know. But I have no idea what other people are going to think about it, you know. It's like a total taste thing. But yeah, I mean, it's going to be different than the last band. It's Bonnie Dune. So they're going to come with me on the road and be my backing band. And this woman, Jackie Warren, who's in a band called Major Murphy, she's also going to be in the band. And it's quieter. It's kind of more Americana. It's more sort of country sounding. It's new interpretations

of the old songs. They're not. not going to sound exactly like they do on the record. But I just, I think it's going to be powerful. I think that like we all are in such like musical love with each other. And I think that it's really, people are going to really feel a very positive energy off of the band. Since we're calling bullshit on a lot of music critic stuff, I will say that I, the word I kept coming back to and listening to it and I kept wanting to use is this just sounds to me like a great American record. Usually American is the adjective, people who live in cities, to describe places that they haven't been or don't know what they feel like.

But truly in the sense that there's a, you know, a tension and energy and a, you know, a claustrophobia that can come from living in cities and city records. And this just feels wide open, both creatively and musically. And it's just a phenomenal album. We're so excited to have gotten to hear it early. And hopefully now our listeners will be able to hear it too. Thank you. Stay hydrated.

Hey, I will. I'm not worried. It's actually Chris that I'm a little worried about. But thank you so much for coming back anytime. Thank you guys.