The Watch - ‘Moon Knight’ and ‘Slow Horses’ Are Here. Plus: ‘Winning Time’ Heats Up and ‘The Girl From Plainville’ Surprises.

Episode Date: March 31, 2022

Chris and Andy talk about ‘House of the Dragon’ and ‘The Lord of the Rings’ series getting dueling release dates (1:00). Plus: The first episode of ‘Moon Knight’ (18:47) and anticipation for ‘Slow Horses’ (32:04), ‘Winning Time’ is finally getting good (41:03), and ‘The Girl From Plainville’ has what some other ripped-from-the-headlines shows don’t (50:33). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. and I am an editor at the wringer.com. And joining me on the other line, my favorite London Museum clerk, it's Andy Greenwald. Or Rob Pim of a superhero, I ain't on.

I was waiting for the chim chimony coming through with the Moon Night Voice. Welcome to the podcast, everybody. Andy and I are here to talk a lot about it. We got a lot of television. Andy just pulled a classic, gets up five seconds into the podcast to go turn a bunch of stuff off that he left on.

We're humming, though. We have a lot of shows to burn through. Andy, it's great to see your face. I'm still in Philadelphia. I like the idea. What people don't know is I just have a lot of little individual bunsen burners and, you know, like sterno things on. I've got a whole lot of chafing dishes, warming.

And sometimes I forget, you know, I'm so committed to this podcast, Chris. We have so much TV to talk about. People think that we've lost our spark after 10 years. There's some speculation. But let me tell you something. It's rare that you find two guys who can make it work. while either one is turning off several appliances throughout a podcast or the other starts reading

pro football talk while you talk. Are you finally admitting it? I don't do it all often. But when I can tell you're really, you're going to go for a while, I'm just like, let me see the waiver wire, you know? What's incredible is we've been doing this for so long that when I see your eyes go dead,

I assume you're just like, this is an opportunity for me to hone my craft and really like check the Nielsen numbers on the show I'm about to cite once the conk gets passed back to me. I'm seeing if Nick Siriani had a press conference today. Listen, that's fine. You're my first listener. As long as the rest of the listeners don't do that, I think we're good. I think everything you say is fascinating.

Andy, we have so much stuff to get to. So on the docket today, we've got a little bit of hype about slow horses, which is premiering on Apple on April 1st. we want to talk a little bit about Girl from Plainville, watch the first episode of that. I know a couple of episodes are up. I wanted to chat with you a little bit about winning time, which I think had its best episode, the fourth episode recently,

the phenomenon, not even the phenomenon, but how we kind of, you know, how much of a chance people are giving shows right now, given how many of them are on and, you know, even two people who do a TV podcast. There's a couple of shows out there that I haven't even cracked that I want to get into. But what do you do when a show is hitting,

at Stride mid-season, you know, and are there enough people around sticking around to watch? And, of course, we want to get into Moon Night, which premiered its first episode yesterday morning, Wednesday morning. First, a couple of news bits, Andy, where did you want to start? I just feel like there were just two kind of sad pieces of news in the ether. And I know I've been going over that email Jacobi sent us again, like in 2012. And he said, always start with jokes about turning off Bunsen Flames and reading pro football talk. And then second, sad news, lead with sad news. Yeah, right.

You know, like get everyone bummed out. But for real, I felt like we just had to comment on the Bruce Willis story that broke yesterday that Bruce Willis is retiring from acting, I guess, essentially effective immediately due to a deteriorating mental condition. Ophasia. Ophasia. So he struggles with memory and he struggles with expressing himself. And I just, no great takes other than I just so sad. like Bruce Willis, a titan of our youth and adulthood in cinemas, right?

Like, and as I was saying to you when we were texting, first of all, he was as good as anyone has ever been at doing that a very specific thing that he did. And that mixture of like machismo and sly kind of winking commentary is what action movies are now. Like he invented that with Diehard and which still I think is the movie I've seen more than any other movie. But I, have you ever really? watchable is that?

Yeah. Have we done that? You did? I was done that. Yeah. Did you? Yeah. I think it was a big week on the NFL waiver wire.

So you were distracted. I think that's probably why I missed it. Yeah. I mean, it was probably like a lot going on. You know, I'm pretty passionate about edge rushers. You were like to Jeremiah Trotter. Sorry. Sorry, I missed it.

A couple years ago. But also, you know, it was just kind of heavy to think about, almost like feeling the totality of a person's career, you know, because you and I are old enough that we probably both learned about Bruce Wells, us by watching moonlighting, even if we were staying up too late past our bed times to watch it. And being like, this guy's awesome. You know? Yeah, you were commenting about how it's strange to be watching people kind of retire or step

away from their professions. I feel this way with athletes all the time. I mean, I very much, like, associate my professional adulthood with LeBron James in a lot of ways. In terms of your commitment to excellence. Yeah, and just also, like, bringing my friends up with me, like you, you know, like you kind of are like my St. Mary's basketball team. making sure you're always taking care of.

Always. No, I mean, in all seriousness, it's a terribly sad story. One of the things that it made me think about, and people should check out this LA Times story because they get very much into the last few years of Willis's career, which has been marked with his very prolific participation

in the VOD straight-to-streamer genre movie, like mostly action movie market. And, you know, Nick Cage also was doing this a lot for a few years, and he was pretty candid about the fact that he was doing it to pay off debts. And was like, you know, I had a tremendous amount of debt. And I had to do all this, but I never phoned it in. And, you know, like, some of those movies become kind of mystery science theater,

ironic, laugh-along classics. And I honestly haven't seen any of these Bruce Willis movies that have been coming out over the last couple of years. But it was kind of, like, sad to think about the circumstances that led him to be in. those movies and I can't really speculate as to why he was making five VOD movies a year or sometimes more. But yeah, like really one of like the biggest movie stars of my entire lifetime and definitely like a completely formative pop culture figure for both of us.

Well, it's hard to spec. I mean, one shouldn't speculate, but at the same time like the LA Times article suggests it's a pretty huge payday for very relatively little work. And I think there's a, there's a positive read of that, which is just like if he had a sense or he and his family had a that time was limited, he wanted to be doing what he loved to do and what he was recognized and celebrated for doing. There's a slightly less rosy version of it where it's a cash grab, but, you know, those motivations are not for us to speculate on. It's just, he was so good, you know, and I just, I got a little choked up thinking about, like just the arc of those action movies, like obviously the diehard ones. And this will surprise no one that, you know, considering that our podcast begins with an audio

clip from Born Legacy, universally recognized by no one but us. That's the best movie in that series. But Die Hard with a Vengeance still slaps. Oh, yeah. One of the great New York movies. I love that movie. But just thinking about him, like, not just, you know, later career triumphs like Looper, but, like, he's great in Moonrise Kingdom.

You know, really smart, sly, sensitive actor. And, you know, I just feel a little sad that we won't get to see him be Clint Eastwood type, you know, because he had the demeanor and the charisma to certainly to be. that. So we're fans. We wish him and his family well. And then one other just really kind of just devastating bummer of the week was the passing of Taylor Hawkins, the drummer of foo fighters. Not much more to add to the general discourse. I mean, if Dave Grohl is like, you've got to be my drummer, then clearly you're one of the greatest of your generation. And for people of our age, like just knowing through the screen what a charming and delightful person and performer he was,

like his performance in the Big Me video where they recreated the men. Toes commercial is still iconic. I just wanted to share one small anecdote because like 15, 16 years ago now, Spin sent me to L.A. Obviously, I lived in New York to do a Foo Fighters cover story. And I spent the day at their studio in the Valley, the one that is, I guess, the subject of that horror movie they made last year. Yeah, yeah.

I think it was this year. But yeah. It was this year, right. I mean, this will also surprise no one. Couldn't be a nicer group of fellas. just like at that point I was like, man, these guys are old and really know how to be alive, and they were probably like 33 or something, which is hard to imagine. But couldn't have been nicer and more welcoming.

Long chats gave me girl toward me around, like all the gold records, all the things that we had displayed on the wall. And Taylor Hawkins was of a room full of friendly people, the warmest and friendliest of all. And really, really, really wanted to talk to me about Joe Walsh, Eagles guitarist, Joe Walsh. not really my forte. I think the limits of my Joe Walsh knowledge was that he famously gave a record the laziest title of all time, which has Gotney Gum. It's like the best record title of all time. It really is. Yeah. But doesn't Ronnie Wood have a record called like, guess I'll make a solo album then? Yeah. Or it's like, that's me folks or something. Yeah, it's like that same vibe. Yeah. But anyway, we had this long talk and he was just proselytizing for like

why Joe Walsh mattered so much. And did I know his early obscure stuff that was out of print? I was like, no, no, but I'll check it out. And he's like, it's out of print. I don't know how you're going to check it out. Anyway, long day ends. I go out of the parking lot of the studio and I get in my rented Kia or whatever it was to drive back to the hotel. And all of a sudden, there's a pounding on my window.

And it's Taylor Hawkins. And he's just standing there pounding on my window, like roll it down, roll it down, roll it down. And he hands me his own personal burned bootleg copy of Joe Walsh's Barnstorm. Uh-huh. And he's like, I just want you to have this. Did you rock it? Did you let it rip? The whole way back to what's holly.

Hollywood, baby, yeah. Were you trying super hard to get into it? I mean, I'm not saying Joe Walsh's Barnstorm is my favorite record. I'm just saying this dude was so kind and generous. He just ran and gave me a CD. I don't know. I just can't stop thinking about that moment. Obviously, people who really knew him and his family have deeper and more, you know,

more important memories to share. It's just, it's just incredibly sad. He was, he was just seemed like an awesome, awesome guy. And like the one thing I really like jumped out, me about him is, and what was the name of that Food Fighters HBO show that we loved so much? Was that Sonic Highways from a couple years ago? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. And he makes, I think, some appearances in that,

but, man, like, there are some people who do what they do because it's just what they've always done, and maybe they have a good gig doing it, and it's a job. And he strikes me and has always struck me as somebody who did it because he loved it. Like, he fucking loved rock, like a lot. And if people can bring themselves to do it, I recommend they check out, there's a YouTube video of

his last performance with Foo Fighters in Chile. And he comes out from behind the drum kit and does Queen's somebody to love, he sings, and Grohl drums. And the way he introduces it is by being like, do you guys want to see Dave Grohl fucking

drum? And it's like, yes, everybody wants that. But then Taylor does like a pretty good facsimile of Freddie Mercury and they do the entire song with a huge long drum solo from Grohl. And Hawkins is just like beaming. It's like he's just like this is the best. I have like honestly the best drummer, one of the best drummers of all time who is in, I play drums for him and he's just going hammer on this kit.

And they've got like backup singers doing the somebody to love. And it's just like this awesome, awesome celebration of this guy's life. and I recommend people check it out if they feel like it. He'd love rock music. He fucking loved it, man. It was so nice that someone still did, you know, with that passion.

It was cool. Hard pivot. I wanted to ask you one newsy question before we got into like our show breakdowns. I don't know if you noticed that there was an announcement this week that House of the Dragon, the Game of Thrones prequel HBO is doing,

is coming on August 28th. I believe it's August 21st. 21st, August 21st, which is kind of cheeky. Kind of a little sharp elbows on the part of, on the part of HBO, because Lord of the Rings is actually premiering

September 1st, I believe. And I wanted to get your read on that. You know, like, everything's on all the time. Three episodes go up, whole seasons go up. You know, we're getting hit from every angle with new shows, with shows that are returning. We barely know what to do with

ourselves in April. But I, I did find that there was like some old school, like, we like our hand going on here by HBO. And, you know, to the extent that you think that media coverage of shows somehow does or doesn't make or break one, you know, I think that when a bunch of voices come out and say, like, this is a masterpiece, I think it helps like a show, obviously. If there's like a huge fan reaction, it obviously helps and there's a lot of conversation online. but I don't think that these two shows basically going up against one another is necessarily going to affect the viewership of one or the other. But I did find it really interesting that it was like not so fast, Padawan kind of. Yeah. Well, two things.

One, I found out about it instantly because, you know, after Slow Horses, I have an Olivia Cook Google News Alert set. Okay. And she's the star or one of the stars of House of the Dragon. so I, you know, obviously we're going to be talking about slow horses soon. Two, I think this is absolutely being interpreted correctly by you. I think that it speaks to a really healthy amount of confidence that HBO must be feeling for the quality of this show. Because to think about it in a macro sense, like, they have as close to a sure thing as they're going to have in the next few years in that they have not just new. Game of Thrones content, but new Game of Thrones content with Dragons, and it's the first one

out the gate. Like, even if they had gone ahead with the, whether it ended up being called the Long Night or whatever, but the aborted spin-off series that they had, the first episode would have gotten a ton of eyeballs. I think that they made the assessment that it wasn't good enough to merit repeated viewing so they didn't go with it. So they know they have something as close to a sure thing as they can have in this world. I bring that up because if they, there's no shame in going after Lord of the Rings,

because you'd have to imagine that if Lord of the Rings is good, there's still Game of Thrones interest. If Lord of the Rings isn't good, HBO's Mary Stewart Masterson and Some Kind of Wonderful. I've been here loving you the whole time, baby. Just pay attention. You know what I mean? Like, they just have your reliable content.

I think that's exactly what they were thinking in the scheduling programming department is they just had a picture of MSM from some kind of wonderful. They were like, that's us. We know Casey Blois a little bit. Like, generationally, that fits. I feel like he would cite that movie. Speaking of Casey, I also think that his control and, you know,

and sort of unification of HBO and HBO Max brands, part of that has come from a deep understanding of how to translate the HBO culture that we have always either rated correctly or overrated for the digital streaming age. And I think that that culture is supreme confidence. You know, like you guys can keep chasing noisy stuff and spending money and throwing stuff, but we're just going to be here making TV shows that people are going to want to watch. And I like it, by the way,

not just I like the show. We don't know if it's going to be good or not, but I like the cheekiness. I like the competitive spirit. And I feel like, you know, we sometimes do cover the streaming wars and things like sports teams, but that's probably got to make the HBO team,

you know, the marketing team, let alone the people in development feel pretty good. You know, that they're not running scared from these big, big boys and big elves. Did other shows used to clear out from Game of Thrones? Yeah, right? Like, HBO used Game of Thrones to prop up or launch other shows or, like, give other shows a lot of exposure. But if I remember correctly, it would just be like, oh, yeah, those are the 10 weeks the Thrones is on.

So all the other big Sunday shows or big dramas or big prestige shows will probably, like, be before or after. So it's kind of wild to see them just be like, if you want to be the boss, you got to pay the cost a little bit to Elrond, you know? Yes, yes. Elrond Hubbard? Is that who you're speaking of? No, the Elf dude. I know. Yeah, I just, I think it, I do think it's pretty cool.

And like, not to expand too far from the specific point, but like, the little things that people in our seats like to overrate or at least focus or fixate on do matter in the sense that like there's also been a, it's not even a scandal, but like Kim Masters, our favorite assassin of the Hollywood Reporter had a story this week about Bob Chappek at Disney being potentially in hot water. Not specifically because... I think he is in hot water, yeah. Yes, but not... He's in hot water specifically over the last few weeks because of Disney's bizarre two-step about the Florida don't say gay bill and all that. But she used that as a way to talk about

why his tenure is perceived as being shaky regardless. And a lot of it has to do with just communication style, right? Leadership style, the confidence that you're projecting in the way that you're dealing with people and dealing with situations that actually leak into the media. And like, that stuff matters. matters. It does matter. You know, ultimately, it doesn't matter as much as whether the shows or the content, you know, the quality of that. Like, that's probably where we should begin and end most

conversations. But I, I think it's a pretty, it's a bullish indication of where HBO and HBO Max are, but I think it's also a reasonable one, considering the year, year and a half that they're coming off of. Should we stick with the mouse and talk about Moonnoy? All right. Let's do it, in love. Get down to the gift shop, you? Great stuff. We didn't talk about this before the show, so I don't know whether we are going to agree. Yeah.

It's a testament to how much I like Oscar Isaac and Ethan Hawke that I am trying to like basically keep an open mind about this, right? Because I thought the first episode, they made a few episodes available to critics. I kind of just decided to watch the first one, partially just because I was watching other stuff, but also because like I didn't want to. want to be like, oh, it gets really good in four or it gets really bad by three or whatever. But I don't think I can remember a choice this extreme in a major franchise blockbuster level TV show, like the one that Oscar Isaac is doing where like he basically is got a mood board.

If you're talking about Mary Stewart Masterson being up on a cork board in the HBO programming department, apartment. I feel like Oscar Isaac's got like two pictures on his wall. Okay. Ace Ventura and the mask. And he's, he is going for it. The, the, the, the Eric Stoltz movie Mask? No, just the other Jim Carrey movie. Like just the like, the real somebody stop me vibes coming off. Not, not necessarily always, not in a bad way. You know what I mean? But it is, it is definitely like, you got to get your hands around this one a little bit. It takes a second. I, we haven't talked about this. I loved it. I loved it. I loved it. I loved it. I thought that it was, first of all, like, I don't think

this is a controversial take to say that if it's not Ethan Hawk and Oscar Isaac, it's probably bad. Like, not bad, but it's serviceable, you know. I don't actually want to overrate their performances or just their charisma too much because I thought that the construction of the episode and the approach to a very challenging, odd character were excellent. And I thought the direction by Mohamed Diaab was really exemplary, like surprising, fluid, lively, had a lot of personality. But I just loved the tenor of it basically because Oscar Isaac, one of our great actors, was like, yeah, I want to have fun with this.

what appeals to me about this isn't that I'm going to get to where you know get buff and like punch people which at least through one episode he doesn't do at all he was like I want to I'm interested in the parts of the character

the ghost jaguar or whatever yeah but is that's like CGI Moonday I don't even know if that's him like he himself is an actor It's Pedro Pascal I think he did he did that work he was you know he's has a lot of free time because he's rarely on the set of the Mandalorian

um he What appealed to him about this was the parts that made it a tricky proposition, the disassociative personality disorder, the potential to make really big choices. And then even within those choices have it kind of work because I think, you know, as we'll learn, these are all manifestations or different, you know, different personalities existing within one person who was not raised in Hackney or wherever. So the Dick Van Dykeiness of his accent. Or in Mary Poppins's purse. Yeah. Exactly.

It can be a little bit. little bit forgiven. But I thought that of all of, well, certainly, Wanda Vision did this too, but this is the first Marvel series since Wanda Vision to be like, here we go, right from jump, like, we're going to put you into something else and see how you feel about it. And that's, you know, maybe our bar has gotten really low, but like that's, that's kind of all I want out of these things is I just want a different way in to what it will presumably be a relatively familiar journey. So I think that there is some stuff tonally that I did like a lot. Like, you know, sometimes I wonder whether or not I actually need director bullshit to get through

the night to help me find my way through the dark. Because sometimes those kinds of, you know, those buoys help you a little bit. Like, oh, okay. And now I see what you're going for. And there are shows like Wanda Vision, for instance, that are so formally kind of high concept that you immediately kind of recognize what you're dealing with even if it's very like what what could happen next are they going to the 70s or what's happening uh i thought moon night kind of had a little bit of sam ramy a little bit of you know coensy stuff not a lot but a little bit and i thought it was very um noticeable how a little jacob ladder too remember that movie oh yeah i felt like i felt like that jules schumacher i think it was shoemaker so i think there was a little shoemocker in there um yeah a little shoe just a just a dab um it was

really nice how unencumbered it was by other MCU stuff. Oh my God. They didn't talk about the blip. Yeah, no blip, no superheroes, just Ethan Hawk wearing mandals and walking on glass and having, doing cool tattoo tricks. And holding sway with the power of an Egyptian god over a Swiss ski town? Yeah. Yes. Great. Classic. The Swiss, very trusting people. Very trusting. The MCU's vision of Europe It's amazing It's pretty tempestuous, right? To be fair, Chris,

like, Sikovia was a major Disruptor in the life of contemporary Europe In the European Union. You remember Tony Jude wrote that book Like Post War, basically about how everything in Europe has to be seen through the lens of what

And I imagine he probably caked up writing a sequel after the Sikovia The fiasca. I'm sure he did very well for himself, yeah. Right. I think that when you were watching this at all. I heard Charles and Van and Jome and Steve talking about this on Midnight Boys.

Was there any part of you that was like this could just be a movie? This would actually be a really cool movie? Yes. And it probably could have or would have been a really cool movie. But I and again, I want to tread lightly here. I've only watched the first episode. Yeah. That's the only one most people have watched. No, no, I know.

But as you as you as you humble brag bragged moments ago, you had access to others. Right. Some people did. So I just want to make it clear that I'm the voice of the common man here. Yeah. I work in the museum. I just pretend to be like a common man.

Yeah. By not watching my screeners. By looking at the football waiver wire instead of watching your screeners. Oh my God. Bruce Ariens retired. The thing that I find so appealing is the where you started this conversation, which was Husker Isaac's having some fun with the opportunity. being presented to him.

And as, you know, I think he said this in interviews and he said this to us when we had him on our podcast a year ago, Ethan Hawk was like, I wasn't looking to be the villain in a Marvel TV show. Oscar called and was like, you want to come hang out in Europe and do this fun thing? And he was like, yes, I do. And that spirit is more TV to me, you know, like that they really are playing and having a go and having a laugh and seeing what it turns into. And it struck, this might to me, this might really just come to

down to what a strong actor he is. But I really enjoyed the balance that it found between playing Wake Me Up Before You Go Go and the kind of existential gods and goddesses museum horror that it was also playing with. It found a nice balance there. And they also were like, yeah, let's hire F. Marie Abraham to be the voice in his head calling him an idiot while he resets his jaw. Like, yeah, let's try these things. Let's go. It's just, it's a delicate balance sometimes, but there was a feeling of adventure and fun in this that forgave whatever mistakes or whatever flaws may have been percolating. Yeah, I guess it's for me. I'm kind of like just, you know what it is, is that when you watch something like this, and I've kind of felt this way a couple of times when Sam Ramee has

made, whether it's a Spider-Man movie or like, you know, I'd be really curious to see like his Doctor Strange because it's like, I think I associate a certain, um, not gorge, but extremity with Sam Ramey and he can find that in the PG-PG-13 restrictions that are usually placed on you if you're making a superhero movie but I kind of want like I want kind of the fucked up

extreme version of this show and I just have to recalibrate that like this is on Disney Plus it's not going to be scary it's not going to be lit gothically or you know it's it's going to be Ethan Hawk wearing easy season robes like in the middle of the Alps

And, you know, like that, I just have to, like, every time an MCU show starts, I feel like I always am like, oh, I thought this was going to be like Last Boy Scout, but it's not. The fun one. Yeah. There's an inherent silliness to the character. And we, I did this kind of, I did this like Moon Night 101 thing before, but the quicker version of it is like the character exists because Marvel is like, what if we had Batman? And then in the years since, they, different aspects were added to the personality that he's the embolable. bodyman of this Egyptian god, that he has multiple personalities, there's a voice in his head, there's been different ways to interpret the character.

The, I think now pretty much disgrace and exiled comic book writer Warren Ellis did a big reimagining reboot of him a few years ago. They had great design. I should shout out the artist. I don't have them off the top of my head. But like took that the cowl suit that we're seeing and reimagined it as just like a guy with a hood over his, with a basically like a cloth over his face wearing an immaculate white suit. And playing into the, just the extremity, to use your word, of multiple personalities in a, you know, Egyptian dealer of night violence.

So I think some of that is in here and it's tough to find, in comics it's easier to be both silly and commenting on the silly and also dark. And I think that they're finding their way through that. But I think it's baked in. And I just really loved the fact that generally when an actor puts on a cowl or agrees to do this sort of part, they amplify in one specific direction, whether that's Christian Bale's voice that he did to become Batman. I haven't seen The Batman yet. I think people listening have assumed that

because I just haven't quite had a three and a half hour hole in my schedule recently to do it. I would like to see it. I would love to talk about it with you when I do. You're going to have it on HBO Max before you know it. Just as they all intended. But like, from what I understand, Pattinson did a similar thing, right? You sort of, you steer your abilities into what you perceive to be the correct skid for the character.

Like, that's what it's expected of it. So I do my version of it. And what I loved about this was Oscar Isaac can do that. And at the end, when he's more Mark Spector, shout out one of Marvel's prominent Jewish superheroes, looking into the mirror, he's doing the gravelly voice. Like, I will defeat this. When he does, when they have that, and I, you know, spoilers for, I guess we've also talked a little bit about this. But in the final scene of the first episode, and it's the. the mirror battle,

you know, the other Oscar Isaac, the born legacy, Oscar Isaac is in that mirror. And you're like, oh, yeah, like, he can do that,

but this is as easy a switch to flip for him as the other. And I think that makes it a more elastic and surprising and just pleasant, fun performance that, like,

he, he got to play the two ends of it. You know what? I'm happy that you're happy. I don't, I don't want to, I don't, it's not that I don't have a take

on the show yet. It's just that I think I thought it was going to be a little bit different. I mean, I also think a lot of this first episode is in the trailer too. So I was kind of like, yep, saw this part, saw this part. But I also think that so far, you know, at this point so much time has passed and so much discourses has been written or expressed.

Like I think Wanda Vision is probably underrated. Like I was so down on what it turned into that I'm definitely like undervaluing how strong and surprising and creative the beginning was. So I want to be mindful of that. But at the same time, this show, Jeremy Slater, was the credited creator and writer, and with what Michael Waldron did with Loki. Like, these are the two that, to my mind, just hit the ground running being like, we're going to do this.

Yeah. You know, I know what I'm going to, I have a sense of what world this is and how I'm going to take you into it. And, you know, for as much as we want to give those creators credit, I also think that the people in similar roles on like Hawkeye and Winter Soldier, that's much dicier terrain. those are very, very, very connected continuity-heavy characters with a lot of baggage from the movies that they had to be worked out at the same time. So those were not, I don't mean, I just want to be always be mindful when I say that because it's not like all of these jobs are equal in terms

of the potential for meddling or the potential for expectations and what people are checking for. These are minefields. And so far through one episode, I just thought it was light. Yeah, which I didn't expect. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant.

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I want to talk a little bit about slow horses, which premieres tomorrow. We're on the first. New Apple show. We've talked about it on this podcast before. It's a six-episode spy thriller adapted from the first book in the Slawhouse series by Mick Heron. It's about basically loser spies.

spies who have been cast out of like the circles of power in the MI5 and are working in a satellite office above a Chinese restaurant, you know, in a rainy, well, it's always raining in London, but like it seems to rain especially a lot in this neighborhood. And it's a group of spies who were being overseen by a guy named Jackson Lamb, who's played amazingly by Gary Oldman, who now has two iconic spy performances under his belt with this and George Smiley and Tinker Taylor. And if you want to talk about a show, that hits the ground running and we won't spoil it for people

because we got to see episodes beforehand but it comes out tomorrow maybe my favorite first scene in a show in the last like five years in terms of you get a sense of the visual style you get a sense of the sensibility and the writing, the humor and the sort of

the boundaries of the way in which the show where the show is going to be working Like you know what is and isn't out of bounds for this show. And inside of those boundaries, inside of that sandbox, like what they get away with and what they play with and the charm, the just sheer charm of this cast and this show, it is like executive produced by Graham Yost

and the easiest way I can describe it is it is justified made, if justified was an English spy show. Yeah, I mean, I think people who listen to us regularly know that we were always going to be the softest, targets for a spy show, especially a spy show set in contemporary London, and then you get Gary Oldman involved. Like, the more information that came out about the show, the more clear it was that we were going to love it.

But even so, I was really impressed with the first episode. It is a masterclass in bringing you into a world and making you comfortable there. And to your point exactly, like, just communicating the facts, the stakes, the stakes. and just the sort of the general contours of the playground that we're going to be in. You know, it's funny, but it's a little bit serious, too. The stakes are where they are, you know, and you kind of just get it. And there's this moment that I was so impressed by when, as Chris alluded, like we're following specifically a character named River Cartwright,

who in the beginning is a promising agent MI5 and then finds himself in the doghouse or in the slough house with the rest of the losers who are a motley and fun bunch to be with, including Olivia Cook, who I think is really good as Sid, maybe the least losery of the losers, at least in the early going. But there's a scene where he has to return back to Regent Park where the posh, classy MI5 offices. And it's also just some great workplace comedy that he has to, like, get a minder and take a picture with the... Get a temporary pass to get into the building and stuff. Get a lanyard to go in. and he has an interaction with his rival

who's just a great character played by a great British character actor Freddie Fox who as we noted when he was in the pursuit of love last summer is not the rapper also known as Bumpy Knuckles but again I do think that we should create some sort of transatlantic trade where we could potentially swap them in any given moment in time. I don't think the character of River would have gotten away with what he gets away with that guy if it was actually Freddie Fox.

I wish that in the world there was a button we could just hit every so often and they would swap in any moment in their lives. But anyway, in that scene, and this is not a spoiler, it's just scenecraft, it's just good writing. And the series was adapted by a guy named Will Smith, who is, I don't think he was Googledable before. I think this week is particularly been a tough beat for him. But in this scene...

Can you imagine if we had him on the pod today? And Kyle was just like, today on the pod, Will Smith? That was the headline. We screwed up. Yeah. Kaya's crying SEO tears right now. It's just like this British guy from the Ionucci tree. And it's like, yeah.

Like what do you guys are expecting? So the character Freddie Fox plays his guy is nicknamed Spider Webb. And he basically takes a moment where he's just like, do you know why it's called Slough House, even though Slough is not London. And the river's just like, yes, I do know. And then the guy explains it. And he explains it for the audience. Because a narrator could explain it. But he explains it.

And we're like, oh, now we know, especially an international audience that doesn't understand the significance of saying, Slough when it's not London. And then River gets to put a little cap on the whole thing being like, it's not actually a joke if you have to explain it. That's just a tiny bit of scriptwriting. Yes. But it's elegant. It's elegant. It's like not dumbing down for us, the audience learning about this world, but it's also welcoming us in in a way that I think puts everyone at ease. And then you add to it just that everything that I think Apple, in the best case scenario, can do for a project, which is bring on... Rent out London. A plus people and literally rent out London and then get out of the way because the vibes here are immaculate. Like the rain,

the takeaway, the streets, the buses, just the feel for a place. Even the building of Slauhaus itself, you know, the creaking staircase, the up and down, the understanding the geography of where the characters are is that when Gary Oldman's minder wants someone to come to him, he just stamps on the floor. Yeah, he hits the bottom of the floor of the broom, yeah. It's completely realized and lived in in a way where, and I think anyone watching this, even if you're not as Gaga for the stuff as we are, like, turn it on. You'll be like, oh, we're in good hands. We're going to watch this. No, I mean, I think the other point you were going to make was just that, the point you just made is right, which is if you get Kristen Scott Thomas to play the director of operations

for MI5, the way they do, and she's essentially, I think, I don't know how many scenes she's in, but it's like not a huge part. It's just a hugely important part. Yes, right. But, like, Kristen Scott Thomas can communicate so much, like, about that character because she's just so fucking good so she can roll her eyes or she can arch an eyebrow or she can put her hands in her pockets. And, like, the way that they kind of, like, they dress the characters tells you so much about them. Like, the ties.

Gary Oldman character is just an absolute slob with holes in his socks. Kristen Scott Thomas looks like, like, the Anna Wintour of, at the MI5. and just like the way that they kind of construct all these people. I hope people who are hearing us give it a chance because it's pretty awesome. We shouldn't also say, like, again, it's just an embarrassment of riches because River's career is saved because he's the grandson of a famous MI5 operative. And River goes to see his grandfather and, like, make dinner for him and they sip whiskey by a fire.

And look, if you're making a British spy show, I want immaculate people talking shit about fascism in front of a roaring fire. Like that's part of what you would. expect when you buy the ticket. And it wouldn't matter who was sitting there, honestly, as long as they were wearing a nice suit. But it's Jonathan Price. And Jonathan Price, one of the great English actors, who generally gets hired to do more extravagant Jonathan Price things like he did on Game of Thrones. But guess what all these British master Thespians can also do? They can sit in chairs and just hold your fucking attention, you know?

Dude, you know what's also great about that scene? And I don't want to be like, here's another great part of this first episode that people haven't gotten a chance to see it. But that scene you're talking about, which is just basically another exposition scene where you find out why was he excommunicated from the server, why was River set out and all this stuff, there's just like a brief second where they have like a little argument about like whether the lemons are fresh enough to make a chicken, like this chicken's dish that they're going to do? Should you store them in refrigerator or should you store them on the counter? Don't need to have that in there, but it's perfect. It's like make these people feel like a little

bit alive by having them have a digressive conversation. And that's throughout. It's a great call by you to mention that because I think that often when we are more critical of shows, it's because the plot machine has taken up all the space and there isn't room for just a single line like that. And really, it's my perhaps tiresome to some people spice market diatribe. Like just show me something real. Give me a sense of something lived in almost as a white balance for all the other bright stuff that you're showing. Now I understand it.

These are real people, but crazy stuff's happening. but they still argue over how best to store citrus in what I imagine to be a very humid circumstance in London, judging by the precipitation. You'll know soon enough. It's true. It's true. I'm going to Sloughhouse. Yeah. What do you want to do next? Because I think a good example of a show

that maybe has struggled a bit as it's gone on with how to communicate a personality while also dragging a bunch of exposition behind it is winning time. We are both fans of this show. I think strangely, the vibe I'm getting is that we might be outliers in how much we like this show. I think part of that is because this is a show that kind of maybe wasn't made for anyone or wasn't made for everyone.

And now they're not sure who is supposed to watch it. There is this weird tension with this show where I think it's maybe not historical. historically accurate enough for basketball historians. It's a little too explainery for people who are like, yep, I know how a fast break works, you know, but then it's a little dense for casuals, you know? And so it's kind of trying to find its footing here all the while, pretty much every episode and a half introducing another major character and another major character and another major character to the extent now we're in episode four, which is my favorite of the season so

far where the Lakers go to Palm Springs for their training camp and their first training camp under their new coach Jack McKinney, which played by one of the patient saints of the watch, Tracy Lutz. Adrian Brody is like a bit player in this episode. Like if it wasn't Adrian Brody and if he wasn't playing Pat Riley, you'd be like, that's just the guy who has the camera, like walking back and forth. And there's some stuff that happens in this episode that I think, like if you don't like this, I don't know what to tell you.

You know, like the ecstasy coming off the screen during the first scrimmage that Jack McKinney runs and then the subsequent scrimmages where they start to figure out how to play Showtime basketball is like if there's better scenes this year, we'll be in luck, you know, because it's so exciting and viscerally, like thrilling to watch them kind of figure this out. But I was kind of wondering where you were at with this show

because I think it's kind of come in for a little bit of an eye roll collectively from people. To quote a tweet that has been sent to us by countless egg avatars over the years, stick to sports. This was the first episode really to be about basketball. I mean, obviously the show is about more than basketball, and it should be. But it was very impressive to me the degree to which they got the basketball right. Not saying that like these actors were setting perfect pick and rolls or whatever.

I just mean the, it's really hard to film sports and make it seem incredibly hard, yeah, as we've talked about, you know. I know. Unfortunately, the great film, Dr. Strange, you know, that was really its only downside. And, you know, and we almost broke up with Sam Esmail over the basketball in season two of Mr. Robot. To capture not just the technical what's happening on the court, but like, as you say, the ecstasy of when it's flowing and the excitement and just the thrill that watching. bodies in motion bring people who watch the sports. To do that with the added piece of the character work and the emotion, I was really impressed by all of it.

But I also was really impressed by the episode overall because this, to me, felt like a show fully finding its footing and finding itself. Last week, we were talking about how it started to seem like the Adam McKay aesthetic formal innovations. Was falling away a little bit. We're falling away. Like, they were just like every few shots

we'll just cut to a different grain on the, you know, on the, on the, uh, on the, uh, on the footage. This week brought it roaring back. Oh my God. In a way that felt really natural and fun, whether it was Tracy Letts, uh, you know, uh, floating in, in the sort of like zen utopia, nirvana of basketball bliss or the way the way the way the way losers, the word loser goes on the screen every time Adrian Brody is there. It felt of a piece with the story that it wanted to tell.

It was vibrant. It was fun. It was surprising. It was very, as it always has been, entertaining. And I'm curious about this idea that we're outliers by enjoying it. I do think that we're all a little like Twitter broken and discourse broken because this show doesn't fit into the kind of, I mean, to pull from the episode, the kind of like, you're a team, I'm B team way that we tend to talk. talk about things now. Like, this is either the best thing ever or it's absolutely like, you know,

evilly intention bullshit. I think that the show is devilishly entertaining, which is really all it needed to be. But I'm pretty thrilled and a little bit inspired by the electricity of the project as it rolls along. Because every week we talk about how we're awash in Rip from the Headlines types of stories and we're about to talk about another one. And they all seem to follow a similar aesthetic script, like a certain, you know, slavish devotion to the historical record or to the way things might have looked or felt. And this show just doesn't care about that. And now I

understand that people are sore about like that might not actually be how Jerry West behaved or whatever. And I don't want to speak to the discomfort one might feel of having one's life or legacy treated for LOLs in a TV show. I can't. I hope that never happens. and we should back channel with Casey because I know that HBO still technically controls the rights to our friendship because of some kind of dodgy paperwork we signed around Talk the Thrones.

But all of that aside, speaking purely like the product on the screen, it's really exciting to watch the show. It is so fun to have great actor after great actors show up and just do their damnedest to elevate this thing. And to see it all sing on the court,

it's a good metaphor for what the, what the series as a whole did with this episode. Like Damien Marcano directed this episode at one point. I think I read an article about like his like sort of the behind the scenes of how he shot the basketball stuff. He had cameramen on roller blades. You know, I mean, that's what this show is. Is that kind of like, let's just throw it all the wall and see what sticks. Some stuff's going to drop off, you know.

And there are points where it seems so fractured and so consumed with like having every single element get it's screen time. You know, so it's like, it's not just Kareem and Magic driving out to the desert and Norn Nixon driving out to the desert. It's also Michael Cooper driving out to the desert. And they all got to be driving out to the desert. And Julianne Nicholson's got to be driving Jack McKinney. And here's Jerry Bus and his car. And it's like, I got it. We're all driving. But like it has to, it really wants it all. It's a maximalist show. And then there are points in the show like during those scrimages where they're cutting to animation. They're cutting to voice over for multiple different characters. cutting to illustrations on top of footage.

They're cutting to the footage that Pat Riley supposedly, you know, not the actual footage, but VHS tape that Pat Riley was in charge of shooting to make basically a demo tape that Jerry West wants to see that's green tinted because he can't get the color tint right in the camera. It's like if you can go along with the formalism of it and like the innovation in that side, I think that you can get over some of the,

occasionally very expository scenes of just like, this is who I am and this is what I want. And like a lot of what is happening on this show is a faita complete. Like we know that they, Laker girls are coming. So the five conversations that Claire Rothman and Jeannie Bus have about, well, we got to do something that just brings sexiness to the, what could that be?

What could we do? And then it's like, yes, finally we get to the last scene and it's the Laker girls. But, you know, I can see why people would have trouble with it, but I find it exciting enough to watch that it doesn't bother me. I think that the maximalism of it suits the subject matter. It suits the ambition of the network that made it. And I also think it's worth suggesting that it doesn't get everything right.

Like, it wants to be really good at everything on the court. And for example, like, whatever psychological storytelling it was interested in exploring and unpacking with Jeannie Bus, like seeing as a child seeing her father, working the baseline, let's say, with a young lady who's definitely not her mother, and then giving her father what he wants with the Laker Girls. Like, that's real heavy psychological lifting. Yeah. Does the show spend enough time in the gym to be able to do that deadlift?

I'm not entirely sure that it did. But I think that Hadley Robinson, who plays Jeannie Bus, is an unsung hero of the show. I think she's delivering a great, interesting performance. I think that similarly, like, I can't say enough about Quincy Isaiah. performance as magic or in this episode we finally got more of Solomon Hughes as Kareem. Like that is almost impossible what those guys are doing and they're doing it. Like I believe that they are who they say they are. Even they're two of the most famous people of our lifetimes.

Right. And I think that's really remarkable. Let's hit Plainville before we go. Yeah. So this is, you know, not as you were saying, Chris, like it's interesting. Winning time we're talking about maybe peaking in episode four. I've heard people say similar things about the dropout. show that I have fallen behind on.

Yeah, the fourth episode of the dropout is quite, quite something, yeah. So it feels a little bit, hopefully not disrespectful, but certainly not complete to be talking about Girl from Plainville on Hulu after just one episode. But I did want to shout it out, not only because it was co-executive produced, co-show run by Friend of the Pod, Liz Hanna, but I was really impressed by it. And the reason I was impressed by it was precisely in response to some of the criticisms that I've been lobbing at the rip from the headlines docu shows that we've been watching. The thing that I keep coming back to, like, to use the first episode of the dropout as a

probably unfair punching bag, which is that Amanda Safreys' performance is so thrilling and weird and it feels crammed into a box that doesn't quite fit it or suit it, that because of the historical record being what it is, the ceiling of these shows artistically is dropped, is lower because they can't take chances. And on paper, a show about the. infamous involuntary manslaughter via text case in Massachusetts that a lot of people in the country are aware of. That's what the show is based on, where a young man took his life and then his ex or his girlfriend was put on trial for the text messages that she had sent him potentially encouraging

him to do it. I can't think of a topic that I am just off the jump less interested in spending time with on television. It seems dark. It's in the public record. But watching, this first episode, which was directed by Indy great Lisa Cholodenko, and shot by Frederick Elmiss, who is one of the great cinematographers of our time. Yeah. And David Lynch's preferred cinematographer, right? And Larded

with great, great actors like El Fanning at the peak of her powers. I mean, you and I, I mean, what about Blono? I mean, she's always top tier. Chloe Seventy, yeah. Chloe Seventy, really bringing it. And butts, man. Don't sleep on Norbert Leo butts. First of all,

star of the stage, but, you know, Always loved that dude in bloodline. The show does something that I just think should be is noteworthy, which is this is material that is both upsetting and potentially salacious. And I thought the first episode had a really, really tight, tight artistic sense of itself and feeling of control that I was very impressed by. It's hard to say that a show about the subject matter that also features L. Fanning giving an extra performance,

I think probably an appropriate one, but still an extra one. It's hard to say that something like this is understated, but that was my takeaway from the episode in a way that really impressed me because it felt like a project that had a reason for being and something to say other than potentially the fact that they got a good deal on the life rights

or an article option at some point recently and thus got a straight to series order. Which is, again, I'm using these other series as straw men. That's not why these shows exist necessarily, but it's just reflective of the kind of sentiment that I've been building about the industry and where it's been over the last six months and it was nice to have this as an antidote so far.

It kind of reminded me of this... I remember this BBC show or maybe it was a Channel 4 show from a few years ago called Southcliff, which was about a mass shooting in a town. Sean Durkin, who's a really great filmmaker, made it. And I think Sean Harris, who people probably know from the Mission Impossible movies,

plays the shooter. and it's essentially like this town kind of trying to come to grips with this seemingly random act of horrific violence. And it's basically like, remember when we were talking about like the bad news relay a couple of years ago where it was like with broad church. Broad church and like just that moment where, you know, this absolute tragedy gets related to a bunch of people and like people can follow their knees. And it's kind of like this this real like gut wrenching moment. it. And the way that almost everything so far in Plainville has been handled really reminds me more of like this, and I think appropriately so, like, this almost British sensibility of being like just the facts. And like, even when Chloe 70 is like, and she's in her bathroom texting and finds out about, and her,

I think it's her husband who's like, are you with the girls right now? Her ex. Yeah. Her ex. Like they don't lay that for maximum devastation. It's really like a another, it's just another event that they're documenting. And I think that there's a real, like, obviously, artistry to what, like, the, the direction and the cinematography is doing. The writing is top notch. But it's like, we're not going to tell you how horrible this is. It's horrible. You know, like, and I think that the character who I was most kind of, like, gravitating towards was the detective. Kelly O'Con. Yeah, who's, like, going through the step-by-step process of being like,

something doesn't seem right, something doesn't seem right, you know, and then kind of for people who have watched, they know, but like, for people who don't know, it's basically this case where a teenager named Conrad Roy took his own life, and it seems like he was being egged on by this girlfriend that he had named Michelle Carter, who's played by El Fanning, but like a lot of people in both of their lives didn't really seem to understand or know about their relationship.

and anyway, like the way in which they depict this is very, very, very matter of fact. And I think that that's the appropriate tone to strike. That being said, you know, when you're watching it, you're like, this is tough sledding. I mean, like, this isn't like, this isn't like, quote unquote, entertaining TV, right? Yeah, it's not entertaining TV, but there is a, there's a spark here. It's precision, yeah. But not just precision, but like, it's a strange case. And I think, again, the perspective matters, like our relationship to the different parties investigating.

And the detective being like, huh? Or like, not really understanding, wondering if this is just how teenagers are. Like, I think that it has enough space from it in a way that is respectful and appropriate. We are not embedded in any one faction of this case. We are considering the case, which I think serves it well because it allows for, as you said, a very artful rendition of the bad news montage. I was kind of on the edge of my seat. And maybe in a way, on the edge of falling off. of the show entirely, wondering how that would be handled.

But it's handled quickly. It's matter-of-factly. And I don't think it's a spoiler to give this line away. But the aforementioned Norbert Leo Butts, who plays the deceased father, when he's on the phone, he doesn't lose it. He doesn't do the fall to his knees. He says, there's police tape all around our son's car. Why?

And it's matter of fact. But everything is in that line. And that shows restraint, which I think earns the show the ability to have L. Fanning character, Michelle, after getting the news herself, appear totally destroyed. Like, she's thrown up on herself. There's tears everywhere. And she says what's happened. She says, Conrad's dead. And her family, Carabona plays her mom, just says, who's Conrad? So you earn both moments, you know, and it's a delicate dance, but it's one that I think is, at least through one episode, they've pulled off. And I think that's a challenge. I think that's very hard to do.

So I recommend it. I'll be sticking with that one. I hope people. watch slow horses. And we'll probably, well, I guess next week, you're out. Because listen, I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea. This is not a contractual holdout like it was in all of 2019 when I pretended to make a TV show, but needed to get secure the bag. Like that's really what that was about.

Your boy's going on vacation. Chris has promised to fill my seat with only B-listers because I get threatened and spooked easily. Because as everyone knows, because people are always like, oh, you guys have, people are like, people are talking. People are always like, you guys have such good chemistry and rapport. And what they, what maybe some of them don't realize is that, Chris, you can do that with anybody. Well, my plan is to, on Monday, have one of two Will Smith's on and we'll see which one comes

on, you know? I think that's very exciting. And I don't think you should put any time pressure on either. You know what I mean? Like, see which one shows up. No, Kai and I will just record for like 24 hours and we'll see who calls first. it's good of you to tell Kaya now. She loves that kind of management.

I think I has a vacation too, so she'll be fine. It's a company retreat. Did we not get the email? So I will be out for the next two weeks unless there's some breaking news and I'll and I'll just record a voice memo and pretend that. If you sent me a Moonnight dispatch from a museum gift shop. Okay. Yeah.

No, that's great. I mean, I wouldn't want to interrupt your waiver wire time because without me here, I think you'll finally, you know, you'll really be able to put next season's fantasy squad together in a way that's consistent with your values of team building, but I'll do what I can. I'll do what I can. Obviously, I'll miss all you guys.

It's about speed. Really, I emphasize speed. Do you above all else? Yeah, I think character guys too, you know. What about, you know, Bill's been saying this a lot recently. At the end of the day, what about just winning mentality? Yeah, no, that is definitely something I ask all by guys. Do you love this game, you know?

That's why it's going to be hard. fill this chair for two weeks, you know, because... Who's going to humor me about this stuff? That's right. I know a lot of people who just do TV podcasts. I don't know a lot of people who love TV. Not like you. That's right. Let me just look at the last hour plus. We just watched more TV this week than I did all of, in all of the aforementioned 2019. So you're welcome America. We were produced as we always are by Kai Emmullen. This is Andy's final show on the watch for two weeks and wish him well on his vacation. I really thought you were going in a different direction with that, but I guess we'll find out.

We'll be back on Monday. Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you guys soon. Wonderful, wonderful Fortnite Bernskys. Know someone in your life celebrating a birthday? They deserve to feel truly celebrated. That's what 1-800 flowers has helped people do for 50 years, turning

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