The Watch - Movies Are Stuck in an Endless IP Loop. Plus, 'The Idol' Finale

Episode Date: July 5, 2023

Chris and Andy talk about a potentially incoming Screen Actors Guild strike and how that would affect the currently ongoing writers strike (1:00), the poor performance of 'Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny' at the box office this past weekend (14:15), Mattel's plans to make movies based on toys beyond the Barbie movie (25:52), and the final episode of 'The Idol' and whether or not the show succeeded just because it wasn't based off of existing IP (40:58). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons from The Ringer, and this is a podcast called The Rewatchables. We have been doing it. Really since 2017, it started with how much we love the movie Heat. We decided to structure a whole podcast with categories, most rewatchable scene. Who on the movie, Apex Mountain, what age the best? But here's the thing. If you want the full archive, you can hear them only on Spotify for free, by the way. So make sure to follow the rewatchables on Spotify.

Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, gusalcumab taken by injection is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur.

Before a treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world.

The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now.

Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me in the studio, he's mine forever. It's Andy Greenwald! Wow. Wow. What a sweet, sweet thing to say.

Greenwald, it's great to see you. Great to see the United States of America thriving on its birthday. I know that there's been a lot of like, you know, I think people are expecting things from this podcast. Much like my boy John Snow, they're waiting for me to pull the sword against the oncoming hordes. We'll get to that later, the finale of the idol.

We are going to talk a little bit. We'll have Andy's Labor Corner, right? We'll do a little strike talk. That's right. And then we wanted to discuss this article in a little periodical called The New Yorker magazine. A scrappy startup. About Greta Gerwig,

the filmmaker Greta Gerwig, and obviously she's got Barbie coming, but this piece was about Mattel, the toy company, and their big screen dream. and their ideas about adapting their inanimate objects to cinema and the sort of decision facing a lot of creatives and filmmakers in Hollywood right now where it's like IP is the only thing that gets you in the door.

So how do you bring the joy of storytelling to a deck of cards or a board game or a toy or whatever? And I don't mean to sound cynical. That's what we're striking for, really. Is it? Is that one of your planks? Is like, I don't want to adapt the Uno game? I mean, I would love an opportunity to even be in the room. You know what I mean?

That's what I'm saying. So how are you? How was your weekend? Great. You know, I'm big baseball family. Went back to the game. Went back to the game. You want to air out some of your feelings about Dodgers fans and their etiquette?

I just feel like, no, first of all. Yeah. I'm just thrilled to be part of this great. Let you use without sin. You know what I mean? Cast the first FAA. I just want to say, Philadelphia gets a bad rap. Uh-huh.

You know, like I feel like in my experience is going. to see baseball games in Philadelphia. It's just kind of a lot of like crusty, salt of the earth people, just marking down Von Hayes in their box score. You know what I mean? They're just real like exes and O's, like let's move the runner along

and then I'll punch you in the face if you disagree kind of people. Right. There is a just, there is a violence in Dodger Stadium, particularly on fireworks night. That was really, you know, something. And yet I keep going back to touch the flame.

I keep going back to touch the flame. So you mean a violence like guys trying to get good angles to see the fireworks or just like people who are pissed off about like the fact that they're underperforming yeah yeah i think a little bit of both i think um first of all it's a good game you know a back and forth affair between the the pirates of pittsburgh and and and the home team and when we arrived there was a guy sitting next to us who was a big pirates fan oh big big big kind of just just whiz caliphid drip okay head to toe and and And he was real loud about the pirates, you know, who took an early lead.

And they were banging the seats. Oh, really? Banging the seats, which, you know, again, my daughters don't love. Uh-huh. Don't love acts of sound violence towards them. And at first I was like, this is going to be a problem. But then, you know, he had a couple, like, bright blue frozen drinks. And then we, you know, there's a way to behave as a visiting fan that I think is fine,

where you're like, you're enjoying the highs. Were those drinks like 20% CBD? Because usually when people have the bright blue drinks, they get, they like to, have a little bit louder percussion. That's a great point, but in the same way that if you're hyperactive, Ritalin makes you more balanced, you know what I mean? Like, I think that's what I've heard. That's what worked on this guy.

Waiting for that to kick in for me. It's been 20 years strong. Yeah. Here we go. No, so there's a way to behave. You know, we used to go to Shea Stadium, you know, wearing Von Hay's jerseys. So we know that you can be like, you can take the heat if you bring that energy. Yeah.

So just so, you know, I've never went to that shit hole, by the way. You went with me. To Shea? Yeah. Okay. You were too much riddling back then. You hadn't quite tweaked, just tweaked the prescription. So he was, he became like he was a good sport.

And meanwhile, there was a guy, a couple rows back, who I believe is one of the original sons of anarchy. Uh-huh. You know, before the studio got involved, it was like, no, no, we got to pretty this up for Hollywood. And his approach as a Dodger fan was just to scream at every event. Okay. And so anytime a pirate player approached home plate, he just started screaming with a real aggressive voice, just sit down. Sit down? And I was trying to explain to my daughters that that would just be like forfeiting the game.

Like they can't do that. That's just not useful information. Dad, why don't they listen to him? Well, the main, the real issue. Okay, so this is a dad corner for you. And then we're going to get into the idol. But when one of the people, why don't you call them? They're like ball boys and tennis, but there's some like people who work for the team who are on the tracks and like when a,

ball is foul or whatever at the end of the evening. They're also called ball boys. Well, they toss it to the fans. And so someone tossed it into the crowd near where we were sitting, and it fell like a few rows ahead of where me and my boys were sitting. And the guy behind me yelled, you throw like a girl. Okay. Which is, so, you know, me being kind of an alpha.

Did you lodge a complaint? I turned around like maybe 45 degrees, so it could have been just into the ether. And I believe I just involuntarily said, dude. And then what did he say? Nothing. hear me. He was like six rows back. But my younger daughter then, anytime the guy yelled for the rest of the game, which was, you know, like six innings was like, say dude again. Say dude to him again. I was like, you want smoke? And I was like trying to game out the scenarios like, is it good for

these young women to see their father beaten to a Pulp a Dodger Stadium for feminism? Oh, man. Can I be a hashtag ally and not say anything else? What would you do in that situation? I'm actually pretty non-confrontational, to be honest. I think I'm very, I'm very, pretty good at bringing the temperature down. If two guys are getting in a fight, I'm like, hey, come on, who wants to go to jail tonight? You know, like, but if... Have you said that before?

I like saying that. I like saying that. And I don't mean it, like, you know, like, who wants to go to jail tonight? Like, I'm driving, but... That's how I say it, yeah. But I mean it, like, come on, who wants to get in real trouble at a stupid fucking bar or whatever, you know? Right.

But I'm not good at being like, hey, man, watch the language at Dodger Stadium. The rhetoric is a little overheated. I assume when I pay my several hundred dollars to go to a baseball game, that all bets are off and that it's kind of Fury Road out there. And you have to just sort of... You go as fast as the road goes. The watch is sponsored by Fanduel. All bets are not off.

Yeah, that's right. Seconds. Well, I think that that's kind of beautiful. Now, do you feel like you, does this disqualify you from your upcoming gig as moderator of the Republican primary debate? Because I know that you've been kind of like... That would be good if I was just like walked up. First question, who wants to go to jail? I think we know who wins.

Okay. All right. So next time I just go with you and protect. The reason why you're at so many baseball games. It's because I'm a sportsman. It's because you continue to strike. That was pretty good. Thanks.

Because now you find yourself with this free time. Usually you spend every waking moment writing. That's true. It is an addiction and it is a passion. Right. So right now we're at one strike. But you're asking me is, Will there be two strikes?

Will there be two strikes? Because the WGA is on strike, and now we're getting some saber rattling from actors. Thank you for that. Yeah, so I just, I don't know if people were following it. Like, all three major guilds were all up at the same time, which is something the studios want. Their contracts were up. Yeah, their deals were up.

So obviously, writers, we've been striking for almost two months at this point. The directors obviously did not strike and are happy to get back to work. without writers and potentially without actors. So the SAG deal was coming and it seemed like it was heading towards a quick resolution, which was disappointing to some of the pirate fans that we know out here. And I think Fran Dresher, who is the head of SAG, released a statement being like... Still not used to it. No, it's really surprising. It was like, things are going great. She was like, we're kicking ass. Like, we're really close, right? Yeah. And then, then a bunch of the more agitated members of SAG circulated a letter being like,

do not just take a good deal. Like this is a unique opportunity to... Some pretty big names too. Jennifer Lawrence. Yep. Rami Malik. And then eventually Fran Dresher. Yeah, which I love that.

Who's just like, I agree with the angry people. I was going to do a bit today where like I had a petition to me to replace you. But I signed it. I would sign it too. This would be the fastest. petition ever. Yeah. I'm finally going to convince Bill to start a baseball podcast. I feel like I've been auditioning for two weeks now and I've got a really good angle where I don't talk about the game at all. So there was a more restive flank saying like, do not take a good deal. This is a unique opportunity

to really make something substantial happen, particularly if we unite with the writers and move the ball forward for both flanks. I keep saying flank. It's like I was at San Anita horse track or something. Anyway, everything that I was sort of being told or that I'd heard from people, quote, unquote, in the know who claimed to be in the know, was that a deal was imminent. With the actors. With the actors. And then a deal didn't get done on, I believe, Friday was the deadline? Yeah, they had a July 1st deadline. A 12-day extension was announced.

Which was, it's something of a misnomer because the way California where Hollywood specifically works is they love a holiday. Yes. Yeah. So, like, it's not uncommon. to be like, as Thanksgiving approaches, it's like see you next year. Yeah. So I'm on vacation today. So the idea that it was 12 days, it's more like five, right, with weekends.

Like business, business working days? Yeah, kind of. Either way, it did seem like a delay was a relatively good thing for those rooting for a deal. I've since heard that that might not be, this is all rumor. I don't know anything. I am not an actor. And I don't know anyone who's in that room. But the rumors that are circulating is that they were very close to a deal on all points except AI,

which is a big sticking point for writers as well, and that there might not be movement there and that there actually could be a strike, which would be, obviously, I'm not going to pretend, I'm not biased. That would be great for the writers if the actors were to strike as well. That would move things along much more quickly. That's your read, is that if the actors were going strike, this whole thing gets resolved more quickly because of the combined sort of negotiating power. That's not just me saying that.

I think that it's the combined negotiating power and also unlike writers, actors are famous. Can you guys all stop AI? Together? Yeah. I mean, you know, smaller amounts of people have stopped AI in movies. That's true. Just Sarah Connor did. Yeah.

So I feel like together. Or did she? Well, wait to the reboot to find out. I mean, so we're getting, the writers are getting emails being like, you know, here's the picketing schedule for this week. Fingers crossed that this is the last week where we're the most attractive people on strike in Hollywood. And when you think about it, the AI thing is very challenging to wrap your head around because the reasons for writers to be appalled by it and actors are strong, but quite different. You know, because obviously, I know you've seen the Indiana Jones movie, unlike most of America.

I have not seen it. I still want to see it. But the way you've described it is that, like, the whole first part is essentially AI Harrison Ford, even though he was there and was paid for it. Irishman Harrison Ford. Apparently it was, I mean, obviously with Harrison Ford and James Mangled, the filmmakers, you know, they agreed to do this, but it was essentially they like scraped all of Harrison Ford's indie performances and then created like a kind of ghost in the machine version of indie, I think voiced by Harrison Ford, which you can tell because it's like, ah, that's an 80-year-old man speaking for a 41-year-old man's face. Yeah. So,

So they scraped it. Is that also why Lucasfilm limited access to previous Indiana Jones movies this weekend? Because I've heard scraping is a problem. Did they? Well, I heard that's what happened with Twitter, right? There was a lot of scraping. Oh, yeah, good joke.

No, I... It was a pretty good joke. I mean, I actually, like... So my... I don't even need to get on this, but I'm obviously like any person and sort of mildly addicted to Twitter. So I had done this big thing where I was like,

I'm going to sign out of it. Mm-hmm. And I'll just look at like Woj or Maggie Haberman. Like, I'll just go to individual account. All the greenwald. Yeah. And now you can't do that unless you're signed in. Plus, if you do sign in, there was like the sort of metered thing.

That actually never hit me for some reason. But I know, like, I know some people who are like, now I'm out of Twitter to look at. I would also say that if you are trying to regulate and make the riddle in work, only looking at Wojj and Maggie Haberman is not really going to mellow you in any tangible way. Like there are other accounts. They're going to be a lot chiller than those two firebrands. So I guess what I mean is, we've been talking about AI in terms of writers being like,

this computer is going to write this episode of whatever, Big Bang Theory, which is off the air, but you get my point. I think when we say AI and talking about actors, it's a whole universe of made-up shit, not just the place where we already are where I would imagine there's every single shot of the upcoming Mission Impossible movie is a CG shot to just make Tom Cruise look a little bit younger. Like that's pretty much an open secret.

People know things like that happen. I think we're already, entering into a more disturbing place where filmmakers in post could be like, I love this performance. In Take Five is the best one. But in Take Five, he doesn't do that little smile. Can we make him do that smile in Take Five? Yeah.

And change the performance in post, which is disturbing on a lot of levels and certainly disturbing for actors who give their all and then hope that that's all there is to work with. The only reason why I would be pro this happening is just to hear the stories about what Fincher was doing with it. Oh, my God. where he would just be like take one million and six. Yeah. Oh my God. I've decided to remove this guy's molar.

I also think though, well, this is going to be an ongoing conversation. Sure. But one thing about Fincher from what I've heard from people who have worked with him and who have survived and still want to talk about working with him is that in his maniacal controlling way, he loves actors. Yeah. Like he doesn't think of them as automatones that do the beats the way he want them. He just works the shit out of him.

He wants them to behave like human beings. beings. That Matt Damon thing on Bill's Pod was just like the most amazing thing where he goes to the set of Gone Girl. Yes. And like there's a whole like difficult setup in a bookstore, Rosamemann Pike and Ben Afflecker in like the foreground. And like they start and Finchers just like raging about an extras like how they

walk. He's like who the fuck walks like that? Exactly. So this idea that everyone creatively is on board with just being able to machine stamp everything I think is false. But anyway, I hope the actor's strike. I think that would be amazing. It would change things in a significant way. When do you think all the cartoons in Quantummania will get a union and be like, you know, we have always been computer generated?

Well, the beauty of Quantummania is that it was a limitless imaginative universe and there were like six squid people and Chee-D from the good place. Like that was the limits of the imagination of that movie. So I don't think it would take long to unionize that. It feels dark out there. You know, I think Dial of Destiny is a movie I really enjoyed. I don't think it's as good as Raiders or Last Crusade, but I was fine with it. I think I've also accepted that most blockbusters now

feel the need to be two and a half hours long. That is not really the indie recipe. Indy movies are usually like 205, like bang in and out. But I was, you know, I, it doesn't, I don't know what success even is anymore. You know, I understand that this movie probably costs like quarter of a billion dollars to market. I think if they could have done it over,

they probably wouldn't have premiered it in front of a bunch of French film critics. That was weird. But the word of mouth obviously didn't send that thing into the stratosphere. I also wonder whether or not, like, when we talked about this on the Last Crusade rewatchables, like, Indiana Jones is as old now as, like, the movies Indiana Jones was paying homage to were to Indiana Jones. So you're asking people who, like, I don't think the Indiana Jones has, like, been traded. down through the generations the way Star Wars has for whatever reason. Possibly because, and we find this all the time, we talk to younger people, they're like,

the prequels are my favorite Star Wars movies. You know what I mean? Because it was seated throughout their lives. Yeah, or that's just like what they're into. You know what I mean? Like it's... There's also nothing, there is no larger Indiana Jones canon. You know, there is no like expanded universe with other characters. It is a very specific homage to a earthbound, well, I guess Crystal Skull kind of got a little past that. But they stayed on earth, though. But they stayed on earth.

And it is, the entire thing is, to your point, it's old, right? It was George Lucas and Steven Spielberg being like, this is what we loved when we were kids. Yeah. And now they are continuing to produce something that was when we were kids and we're not young. Right. So I think that we're in a little bit of a, I don't know if it's a doom cycle with that, but like if George Lucas and Steven Spielberg are paying homage to the things that you're saying, like when they're children.

and we're paying homage to George Lucas and Stephen Spielberg. You get into a little bit of a loop there that's kind of complicated. This segues very well into this Mattel article that I wanted to talk about. And I think another piece of that to what you're just saying is the secret sauce behind Top Gun Maverick being the phenomenon that it was is not easily repeatable. And it is not a one-to-one to Indiana Jones. I think the could takeaway was the nostalgia factor and you hit it and you hit all the right beats. You'll get all those people back to the theater to celebrate. the ride one last time. I don't think that's true. I think, first of all, the Maverick thing was

partly fueled by, we're coming out of the pandemic. Let's all go have a great fucking time. I think that is irreplaceable, hopefully, until the next one anyway. But the bigger thing to me is Tom Cruise is still a movie star. And I think you don't need to condition or recondition audiences to say Tom Cruise is going to do some wild-ass shit in the movie theater and it's worth paying for. And it's going to feel real. And it's going to feel real. I think that that experience is pretty unique, but it speaks to the, it's not the relevance of top gun. It's the relevance somehow still of Tom Cruise, who's now 61 years old. Happy birthday just this past week. So, yeah, we're in trouble. Okay. So this article that we were, I've been alluding to, is by Alex Barashan.

It's really quite fascinating. It's essentially an account of how Mattel, the toy company, has been inviting filmmakers to come to their offices and they've like literally thrown open the toy box. and they say, like, what interests you? What's your take on this? What could we do here? And they've worked with or are working with JJ Abrams, The Rock. Of course, Greta Gerwig, who's got the Barbie movie coming soon and is now on track to make $100 million in its opening weekend,

dwarfing Christopher Nolan's Oppenheimer, at least in tracking. And then they also, Mattel also has like an in-house writer's room who are spinning up concepts for various things. There's a lot of really interesting stuff in there. Gerwig's career is kind of like traced out in a really fascinating way that I don't think a lot of people had thought about her in this context, especially if you had kind of grown up watching her in mumblecore movies and appearing and doing things like Francis Haugh and Lady Bird, it might come as a little bit of a surprise to you that she's like, you know, and I think actually for as interesting as she is in this piece, her agent, this Jeremy Barber. This guy in Jeremy Barber works at UTA was actually the best quote, you know, in the piece. More agents. We got to get agents to the forefront. You know what I mean?

One of my agents is desperate to come on this podcast, and he has a flaming hot take on a popular TV show. Oh, on The Idol? No, that, are there hot take... You had the hot take on the aisle. No one's coming near your flame. Here's some stuff from Jeremy Barber that I just thought I'd throw out there.

Quote, Greta and I have been very consciously constructing a career. Her ambition is to be not the biggest woman director, but a big studio director, and Barbie was a piece of IP that was resonant to her. He goes on later, so this is not in the same context, but, quote, is it a great thing that our great creative actors and filmmakers live in a world where you can only take giant swings around consumer content and mass-produced products, he said. I don't know, but it is the business.

So if that's what people will consume, then let's make it more interesting and more complicated. I admire this. He also wondered aloud whether such directors as Hal Ashby and Sidney Pollock would be making movies with Mattel if they were still alive today. Quote, it's a super interesting question. it's also an argument we've lost already. Yeah, for what it's worth, I don't think Jeremy suggested Sidney Pollock and Hal Ashby, it sounds like the reporter was like, let me throw two names at you of master filmmakers.

Okay. So he also at one point described the guy who is basically the CEO of Mattel as like a Medici, which is, do you want me to do a little Medici breakdown? I love it. He was like a toolsy middle infielder for the Dodgers in the 80s. But the Dmitichies. were the sort of, they were the patrons of the arts. They were extremely rich.

Yeah. And so this is a centuries-old relationship between art and commerce. Like, you read this piece this morning. How did it make you feel as a writer, but also somebody who talks about culture for a living? Well, I read this piece this morning, and then you and Kai were kind enough to come pick me up because I had driven my car directly into a wall.

Okay. It's horrifying, but I think it's not worth just being, being horrified because to Jeremy Barber's point, like, this is the current state of the business. And it is absolutely the agent's job to be like, let me steer you towards the best possible outcome in reality. I think it's, you know, not to get too in the weeds, it's more of a manager's job to be like, here's how we get you to a different reality, if possible, creatively or constructively. To your point, like, there's always been an uncomfortable relationship between art and commerce. There are always going to be opportunities for people

who are not just creative writers, but creative problem solvers to spin gold out of bullshit. The Lego movie should have been trash. It's really good, as is the sequel. They're really entertaining, thoughtful, funny movies. I'll take your word for it. You can put it on your list after the Miyazaki movie.

Even, you know, Spider-Verse, speaking of Lord Miller again, like I think is just an absolutely, I think it's a masterpiece. And it is very much soaked in IP and in the world that we live in at the moment. Good things can come from anywhere. And I definitely don't begrudge people trying to apply that part of their brains to solving something. It does appeal to not just a writer ego, but to any ego to being like, can something good come from this?

Look what I did. That is always been part of the business too. And also, you know, there are a lot of references in the piece to Greta Gerwig from home in Manhattan, where she has a newborn. And it's like, you want to get paid as a filmmaker. Sure. You got to play ball. Yeah, absolutely nothing. I have nothing bad to say about Greta Gerwig.

Me either. Getting the bag or even making the movies that she wants to make. Also in this article, it mentions that her next project is to adapt at least two of the CS-Lewis Narnia books for Netflix. So she wants to be in the Spielberg, Christopher Nolan's own. She wants to make big, serious blockbuster entertainment. And I think it's also worth considering. the article or this conversation never really accounts. Like it's not saying there can't be another Hal Ashby or Sydney Pollock.

There can't be another Hal Ashby or Sydney Pollock making the movies they make and the choices they make and having multiple homes along the California coast. In the same way that we've said this personally, I don't know if we've alluded to this in the podcast, but like our experience showing up to New York City 20 plus years ago and occasionally being invited to parties or meeting people who were magazine editors or literary agents. and they had apartments that they owned.

And I was like, oh, you could have a career doing this and make money. That's gone. You cannot do that. So the idea of being a artistic filmmaker who is also rich, that might be gone. Who lives in New York or Los Angeles, yes. Yeah, I think that might be gone in the same way that late-stage capitalism has crushed all of our aspirational dreams. But the bigger thing coming out of this was, you know, we can look at like this IP factory. that Mattel is turning itself into,

and just like what the talent of this generation is spending its capital on, right? So I want to tie this into something I read this weekend by Richard Rushfield, who does the Ancler newsletter where he started it and is now, that's now it's ongoing concern with lots of writers. And it's actually a great subscription if people are looking for more information about the entertainment business and some really great columnists. And he wrote a lot about, he did this thing that was sort of like the bill pull,

in Independence Day's speech, but how to save the entertainment industry. And one of the things that he really zeroed in on is when Bob Eiger decides, like, okay, Disney's going to buy Pixar, Marvel, and Lucas film,

and they are then eventually going to turn those things into those brands being bigger than the stories that they're telling themselves, right? So the idea is that you would be a Star Wars fan rather than I really love a new hope.

Maybe that's not even the best example, but you would be a Marvel fan rather than, I like Iron Man or I like... Or the films of John Favre. Right, but I don't feel necessarily compelled to have seen every single piece of content from opening credits to the post-credit stinger just so I have a complete understanding of this story

that they don't even seem to have a grasp of themselves. And he was talking about how that created this sort of fatigue, and it's also made it really complicated to make singularly interesting or compelling pieces of entertainment. entertainment and I agree with him. And then I was thinking about that relationship to Mattel, who has obviously got this Barbie movie and obviously have a one-of-a-kind director and Greta Gerwig attached to it. They've got two of the most charismatic movie stars in the world starring as Barbie and Ken,

an absolute murderer's row of people appearing in the film. It looks like Greta Gerwig has imbued this movie with as much creativity and singular vision as she did, Lady Bird and Little Women. And subversion. I'm sure it's going to be really good. You know what I mean? I'm shocked because, I'm on the record. I saw that first trailer. I know. I was like, this is the death of everything.

Apparently, that was just a small peak at what it actually is or its ambitions. It might be good. Here's the thing. I just don't think that that means people are going to become Mattel fans. And aside from all the queasiness I had reading this, and it's like Mattel executives, like looking over the shoulders of people and having six-hour conversations with Greta Gerwig about a line of dialogue and Barbie. and I'm sure you could just sub in any studio executive doing that to any director for the most part over the course of Hollywood history and all the sort of notes people get from studios anyway and it's like it's not no need to be like completely scandalized by that. But this idea that movies will somehow anthropomorphize or I don't even that's that right word, but make human these objects that humans use for momentary acts of leisure in their childhood. or whatever, you know, is, I think, kind of, it's like, honestly, a false notion.

Like, the idea, like, you can do a He-Man movie, you can do a Barbie movie, but there's going to be a point where people are like, I don't, like, they talk so much about Captain Mason, is that the Major Mason? So this is the very obscure, essentially, out-of-print, space toy that Mattel made decades ago that inspired Buzz Lightyear. Yes.

And now Tom Hanks, from Toy Story, is attached to star in a movie based on this. toy that no one knows about? And they're like, it's going to be like close encounters of the third kind, but for like adult. There's a lot of this. Like Daniel Kaluuya is doing a Barney movie and it's going to be like A24. And this article, like, again, we have to separate two things. This is smart business for this company that just makes one thing that is not, that is pretty static in terms of its impressions and marketability and potential profit and saying we're an IP factory and we're open for business. And that's fun for them too, I'm sure. To be like, let's a mat, let's let's let adults play with

our toys in a way. And I don't think there is, you could be cynical about this, but the guy who's inviting people to play Hot Wheels with him seems like a guy who just likes toys. That's fine. Yeah. That's fine. What you're speaking to, I think, is something much deeper and more insidious, not just in entertainment, but in the culture, which is this idea that we should care about brands. Right. And profoundly, let me say, from the bottom of my Fourth of July loving heart, fuck brands. Right. Like, this starts with the cold of, this goes like Lee Iyakoka in the 80s, Steve Jobs with Apple. This might be controversial, but I don't really care about the important legacy of a company or, frankly, like, who the company hires to, or like, I'll still eat Martin's potato buns. Sorry. They make a good bun. Right. You know what I, sorry. You know what I had at the ball game yesterday? An ice cold bud light. Why are you saying sorry to me? Because, you know what, Chris? The woke mind virus is a real thing.

The reason I say this is because I was noticing this too. I went, you know, Marvel, maybe I think was the first company that at this beginning of their movies, they have that little like flip book of past Marvel things and you're like, oh, you're within the universe now. And now everybody does that. And this past weekend... Because otherwise I would be like, am I in the Marvel universe right now? What is happening? Am I a scroll?

My buddy mine Brian Brown and his writing partner, Elliot DeGisppe, wrote this movie that just came out, Ruby Gilman Teenage Cracken, kids movie. Really enjoyed it, took the girls. DreamWorks Animation. The beginning of this movie is DreamWorks Animation, where it's not just the little boy on the moon, but the little boy is fishing, and as he's fishing, he's like,

Shrek is there and Pussin' Boots, and all the friends brought to you by DreamWorks Animation. All my favorite DreamWorks, dudes. Before the movie, there was a trailer for this movie called Migration, which is about some ducks flying. But the trailer is really for Illumination, the incredibly successful French studio

that makes minions and Super Mario Brothers and Sing. And so there's like a new minions thing at the beginning and then it's like we go to the Singh universe

and it's like trust us. We're your pals. You're going to love these ducks. And I think we gotta get past this guys. And I think it's ending. Like there's a sourness to this.

I don't think so. I don't mean... I don't think people love it but I don't think it's ending. I don't think it's... Especially if like if these are the people who get to decide, like, hey, you know, it costs $100 million to make anything now and $200

million to market it. So what kind of like pre-existing relationship do people have with the story that you're making? We will never see Michael Clayton again. Well, you know, like two things. I don't mean it's, I don't mean to be utopian. I don't mean like it's ending in the next six to 12 months. I think we are absolutely, you know, this is another franchise that you love. I know you watch a lot of Pixar movies, but we are 100% in the like horrifically like enormous people in their floating chairs and their screens and milkshakes and never using their legs era of these companies and these media brands.

And I think that they are not that smart and they are fear driven and they are not very agile. And they're in a lot of debt. And they're in a lot of debt and they're constricting. I don't think audiences want this. And I also think audiences don't have a lot of choice. at the moment. So I don't know what that means. I don't know what's coming around the corner, but it's hard not to think that something has to change. You know, it's funny to be paying

attention to the movies that you guys do on the rewatchables, which, you know, like, are old. Which are old, but we're not old for us, right? You do a bunch of, like, courtroom movies and things from the 90s at the moment. And primal fear still feels as sort of fresh to me today as it did, you know, when I saw it fresher in some ways, because I'm older. You know what I mean? Like, But at the time, we weren't looking to those movies as the great standard bearer for art, because this is also happening concurrently with, like, the first era of, like, Miramax and Searchlight and independent movies in the 90s. And that's what we were chasing. And these were just the movies that were also in the multiplexes and good.

That kind of, like, big, soft swing that can have some interesting things in it, I, that hasn't gone to television. You know, I feel like there is a place for that and a market for that. but everything's swelled up at the same time and speed. So now these theaters are only built for events, you know, and with 30 screens to play things every 15 minutes, which demands movies that blah, blah, blah. You don't need me to go into this. There are many other podcasts that are specifically.

I understand. But there is a rot here. And the rot isn't, I guess what I'm saying is, to me, the correct response to this deep, deep artistic rot is not to be like Greta Gerwig and Daniel Kulua, you fucking sellouts. Right. They are not the virus here. They are just adapting.

Yeah. The virus is the brands and the companies and the larger market forces that have put us in this position with very few choices, except hoping that the fucking Barney movie is challenging. Yeah. I think that the thing we're facing now, we can move on to the idol if you want. I think the idol is relevant to this. I've got a segue for you. The thing we're facing now is that for every Andor,

for every possibly, for every Barbie, for everything that you're like, Spider-verse, good face. No, because I kind of, I take issue with the idea of like, Spider-Man is a character, and it's a character, we may have made too many of these things

of like, we don't need to reboot Batman every nine months. But like, my relationship to Spider-Man is different than my relationship to a board game or a doll or a, whatever,

you know what I mean? Or like, I remember a while ago, I can't remember who was talking about how like, they wanted to do an Indiana Jones type movie and somebody was like, if you want to,

you should pitch it as like Jack Daniels, a Tennessee archaeologist slash whiskey brewer. You know, it's like you had to like find a way to Trojan horse all this stuff in. And I just don't think people are that interested in horses. You know, I think people like actually would like to just have

the message or the movie or the story you want to tell unadorned with also having to be, you know, about scrolls. and I do find that there's a, I make a distinction between some of the character stuff that we keep repeating and trying to make brands like human, which I hate.

I think that's a great point. But I do think we'll probably be in a zone now where like every once in a while there will be something like and or that we're like, holy fucking shit, this works not only as a Trojan horse, but as like something that rekindles the love that we had for this thing when we were kids in the first place, but also treats us like adults and doesn't insults.

or intelligence. And that's like, that's the best case, best possible scenario we could have. And then for the most part, we're going to have a lot of stuff that we watch the trailer and get excited or maybe you're like, ha ha, let's talk about this. And then we're like, this fucking sucks. And it sucks in a way, honestly, that to your point, and I don't know what your idol segue was going to be, I would take how the idol was bad. Right. In some ways, a hundred times out of a hundred over how a lot of shit is just mid. That is my point. And we can segue way, but I do think it's worth noting not to be like the doomsayers and we still want people listen to the podcast, but things are worse.

Like things broadly, I think everyone knows that in the world, but like things are worse. TV is worse, movies are worse. It's all worse now than it was just a few years ago. And I don't have a solution. And if it wasn't, and we were just getting older, people would be going to the movies. Yeah. Like, if it wasn't worse, I think that there would be like more of a relationship to the films and people would just be like, you guys just don't.

get it. Quantumania is sick. Yeah, I don't think anybody thinks that, really. Paul Rudd certainly doesn't think that, you know. There's another great podcast put out by this very same company at the ringer, the town, and I was listening to Matt Bellany and Lucas Shaw were saying something about secret invasion just before it came out, and they were saying, you know, I think someone was sort of glibly saying, like, you know, Marvel, maybe it was going to be Marvel's and or.

And first of all, we would have loved that. There's no question. But also, Marvel doesn't want a fucking Andor. Andor isn't a success. They don't want to make more of that. People didn't watch it except us. And Andor is so worthy and so phenomenal and good, not good, comma, but it's just good. Yes.

But that's not the business these companies are in. That was a byproduct. And in the case of Andor, I think it's essentially a shrug. You know, another point that I did see made that we should pivot, this is all getting really old, you know. Like the people in charge of these brands in charge of these companies, you know, strip mining and scraping the memories and the childhoods of old stuff. Uh-huh. There's diminishing returns there. You know, I don't know, I don't know. Are we reaching the limits of, like, millennial memory and millennial brands like Barney? Where's the new stuff, man? Or do we really want to know what the new stuff is? Yeah, that's scary. Maybe Kyle will tell us about it later off air. So the point that you want, we should get to the finale of the idol.

It's exactly the point I wanted to make, which is before, who knows, who knows where this conversation will take us? Who knows if we'll be negative? But I do want to say, we should treasure this moment. Yeah. Because the idol is bad, in my opinion, in a very rare way these days. And what I mean by that is we grew up in a time when there were real turkeys made, when there was great ambition and ideas. and money and talent were put in the service of things that were just kind of catastrophically crazy, like weird.

Like, who agreed to this? It came from the beating heart or fervid mind of somebody. Yeah. Motherfuckers were making Dr. Moreau. Yes, and that was Marlon Brando was in that movie, right? Yeah. And that was released into theaters because that's what you did. We made this. We might as well put it out. Yeah.

Because that's what there was. That doesn't really happen so much anymore. more because everything is much more prescribed, much more careful, much more IP driven. And when it is IP driven and you have to hit a release date like you did with a flash, you continue to spend money on it to smooth out edges or to make it noisier or make it louder or make it more in line with other stories that you might be interested in seeing or lard it with things that might make some segments of the audience cheer or feel something because it connects to something else that they saw.

So things are bad in an incredibly boring way. like just big, noisy, sloppy, dumb bat. Just like a hundred people tried to fix this, and this is what they did. And you can feel the sweat. And sometimes there are a couple things that came out of it. And you end up saying kind of your version of what I was saying before about,

well, it's certainly interesting that they tried to solve the problem about making a movie about a card game. How interesting. Yeah. They tried. We say things like that on this podcast all the time. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime.

ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for, that's when Prime's same day delivery as you're back. Getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment

instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas. Terms apply. are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses.

Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. This episode is brought to you by the Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small.

So whether it's buying tickets to the game or grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms apply. We all have that dream trip. We've been wishing we could go on, but too often life or usually price gets in the way. That's why Priceline is here to help you turn your dream trip into reality.

With up to 60% off hotels and up to 50% off flights, you can book everything you need for your next adventure. Don't just dream about that next trip. Book it with Priceline. Download the Priceline app or visitpriceline.com and book your next trip today. Got your happy price, price line. The idol by dint of the egos and reputations of everyone involved. Are you an idol gang? 100% no.

Okay. I want to put on my like my cleanest, most new critic hat that I threw out the window. And I think this was one of the worst hours of television I can remember seeing. Okay. It was absolutely crazy, comma, boring, incoherent. I mean,

and we can get into it. But this was, it was, what's the, what's the quote about how all unhappy families are unhappy in their own way?

Yeah, right, Tolstoy. Who? Right. What's the Tolstoy IP? Who controls that these days?

Pruton. Great point. Probably tough to wrench that out. The Wagner Group took it. It's the ultimate heist. Isn't that, isn't it Anna? Even more so than,

yes, even more so. I took that down once. Me too. That score. Yeah. You want to talk about that? Maybe once we run out of Hollywood next week.

Or we're run out of Hollywood next week. That could be our summer project. Rereading Tolstoy? Yeah. We're going to bring you in on that in a second. Just run the numbers. Guys like, oh, shit. These guys.

Russia's summer? Hard pivot. Have you seen commercials for, do you remember there's a no brand and we hate brands? Yeah, right? I've already said this. We don't hate brands. I just don't need to see a film. about them. I would see a movie about Thomas's English muffins. Yeah. But like Stoli vodka is now

not Stolichnai, it's just Stoli. And it's like made in Latvia. Did we mention how great it is in Latvia? We make vodka here. Have some. Little West. We're just going to inch it. Anyway, yeah, I don't think people are used to seeing things that are bad like this in a unique way. I think people are used to seeing bad like the Lord of the Rings series, which costs close to a billion to be to be a hundred percent mid. That's my take. That's my that's my gentle, positive take. And I don't disagree with you that I would rather see artists make, this is where the subjective part comes in, make a mistake. I don't think the people involved think it's a mistake, but I'd rather see people do something like that. Yeah. And if you

think that Star X out there hasn't done things so that like they look a certain way or they the movie centers them or that they are standing on an apple box so that they're taller than everyone. The idea that this was a like a pure ego trip for ABLE and that they were making this show to make him look as cool

and interesting as possible, I think is now that we have seen the entire thing, you can now safely assume that this was not that. I don't think Able made this because he was like, what I need everybody to see is like what like a cool, guy I am. This is...

Yeah. In a lot of ways, like all the stuff that he was saying in the beginning in the interviews where he was just like, I think this guy is funny. He has a rat tail. I don't understand why people think

he's like supposed to be a god. Like, he's sort of vacant and he is a joke. And I think by the end of the series, regardless of how you felt about it, that was proved true. Except she's in love with him.

Right. So that argument. So here's what I feel a little bit like, I feel like you should like be Rubin in Ocean's 11 where you're like, I have no doubt that you can get yourself out of the casino. But once you do, you're in the middle of the fucking desert. Like that's me right now.

I obviously have more time for the show than you did. I think I like, I think we gave the same out of time. And I also think that like I still, even in this episode, there was like a ton of stuff that Sam did like Levinson did. directorially, like, just Jocelyn of, like, running down the hallway barefoot and, like, the long, faraway shot of that. Like, just compositionally, mood-wise, so much stuff in this where I was like, you just don't get that in 95% of television.

I like the way he shot three actors at SoFi Stadium being like, remember the crazy things that have happened? So this is the problem is that at least to our eyes, at least, I'll say me, at least to my eyes, whatever is the story with why it was five episodes and how many episodes it was supposed to be, and if it was always going to be five episodes, and maybe there will be some journalism that kind of explains this or interviews with Sam and stuff like that. It was supposed to, whatever it was supposed to be, it did not feel like this was the complete show to me. It felt like we got up to a point where you essentially have like Jocelyn's comeback is established

in that room where they do the showcase for Eli Roth and Jane Adams and Azaria and Devine. Do you think executives at Live Nation are like, finally my truth is on screen? We can talk about the reality. I mean, like, yes, I know what you mean. And then there is this title card. What is it? It's six weeks later where Jocelyn has gone on an absolutely unprecedented hit parade in American pop music history, not seen since Motown. There has been a Vanity Fair article that is truly a crime against the ethics of journalism because it has been changed twice at the behest of executives.

No, no, but there was a meeting in a parking garage. And we know from American history that if you do that, with a journalist, it's okay. And that has torpedoed this guy, Tedros's life to the point where he is exiled from. He had to give up the club. Yes, he had to give up the club. Did we ever find out what the name of the club was? No, I don't think, I don't think so.

Maybe that's where Dan Levy is. He's running the club now. And then we jump ahead in time to Sofi. I thought, like, honestly, aside from the Greek chorus explaining what the show, what happened on the show while we weren't seeing it, the Sofi stuff was cool, like the shots of her in the tunnels and like walking out on stage and stuff like that. Like all that, the way that they shot, that was really neat. Well, they had fun.

I mean, again, this is a theme, a recurring theme in this podcast. And then to your point, you're referencing the three sort of like Eli Roth, Hank Azaria, Devine and Jane Adams, and they're all standing there. And they just like tell us everything that's happened in the last six weeks and how they, like, who could believe it? We've got her. She's doing great. And they've all gone in together on a yacht called happiness and they're going to retire.

Because they finally got that guy out of her life. Yes. And they got what they needed out of him. But no. So the thing that I was going to say that is a kind of a theme in this podcast is like, look, there's a pure act of creation that you can do if you are a painter alone in a studio or a novelist. And then there is the essential fact of making movies or TV or music that they are deeply collaborative in ways that aren't often reflected in the who gets the credit or who's talked about as the autore. or the star or the singer or whatever. And that is a good thing.

And that appeals to people who have other parts of their brain that are collaborative, that are problem solving. And so if you just pull, pull way back in a macro sense, and you look at this entire idle project as something that started one way, went way down the road, made five episodes, maybe, who knows, maybe that was an entire season of a television show, that whoever involved did not like,

that that version was thrown away. And then the people who were left were like, So you're not new criticisming it anymore? I'm just saying there's a version of it where I am trying to keep this a little bit clean and say like, I can do it. I can make the Kessel run and whatever. Yeah. We can do this and we can use, I don't remember what that was. Was that in solo?

I just like the idea of the weekend listening to this podcast and you're like making spice run jokes. I feel like that's the first thing that I've said that he would like. He's a big parsec guy. No, but he's concerned about the Mattel IP rate and about my experience at Dodger Stadium. And that idea that is also very rare, especially at this level of art making of like, fuck it, we'll do it ourselves. We're going to film at Abel's house. And then he has a show coming up at SoFi, and we're going to do a lot of filming there.

And we're going to bring Lily Rose out on stage and film part of the show that way in front of the fans. And that's got to feel exciting, right? Like we're just doing it ourselves. We're making it go. And we're making it up as we go along. So I don't begrudge the people who were doing that and potentially enjoying it. You know, I feel like Divine Joy Randolph had an interview with Vulture where she was talking about the vibe and the spirit. Jane Adams had a similar one with Vanity Fair, ironically, where she was just like, this was an awesome set.

If you trust the people you're with, like that could be really fun. And clearly, the weekend comes from a tradition like that too where it's like you get nothing, you get nothing in the studio, then you go home and then you're getting high with your friends and you record something that's a worldwide hit. Like, that's all possible. This is the end of my positivity, though. Because it doesn't always result in something. worthwhile or even functionally good. And so if you go through it, there are just a couple Achilles heels that I don't think this show could overcome, one of which is that it is about music, and I thought the music was pretty bad

and pretty uncompelling that is presented and creative. Do you mean specifically, like, the music that's playing in the background or, like, Jocelyn's songs? No, the songs that Jocelyn and her crew of cultist geniuses produce when they do this review, there is an uncanny valley that you need to traverse in these things

and we've talked about it in relation to Daisy Jones I think you've referred to in the past that thing you do issue which is a movie about the catchiest song ever. That thing you do is like the entire thing is about the success of this song. If the song itself is annoying to 80% of the people watching the movie

they're just going to be like I'd ever believe this. All these people are bad at their jobs. So they actually wind up getting a perfect pop rock song. Yes, from the late Adam Schlesinger. I definitely was watching this and I know exactly what you mean where it's just like you're watching this.

So I even to the extent, with no disrespect to the artists who were involved in making the music or Mike Dean, who seems like he's... Has someone told him he was on a TV show? Does he know he's no longer on a TV show? Is he still... I think that you could even make the argument

that these people are in fact not supposed to be geniuses, but that they're craven kind of like approach to the loins of the people in power who are sitting there, like sexualizing every single person in that room for the most part. And like trying to like eroticize like the transactional relationship that they have is exactly like kind of the point where it's like you can get any like sex is the thing that is going to get you what you want.

And this is what I. And that's the terrifying. And this is kind of my ultimate point about the show. I think that ultimately it was kind of cowardly. And ultimately it was kind of conservative. because they made a big show at the beginning being like, this is dangerous, this is provocative. Like you're just not, you're not cool.

You can't hang. You're like Leah at the party by the pool. We're just going to spray you with our super soakers because we're having fun over here. We're fucking around. And in the end, it was incredibly, I guess, just trying to point out that sometimes the art business is more business and is cynical.

Because if the ultimate point is, these musicians are just hypersexualized and the people who are in charge of promoting them are idiots, are craven idiots, then nothing matters. You know, if your most compelling argument is sex sells, okay, if your second most compelling argument is, these chicks will make up abuse claims. Right. Okay. Well, that's not provocative.

That's a little, but, but ultimately, like, if it's about nothing, if it's about pointing out nihilistically that there's nothing of value here, I don't think that's particularly brave. I don't know that that's what it was. And I think that there's an ambiguity works until it doesn't. And I thought that this, frankly, hilariously, it needed another episode. It needed another episode to figure out when she's like, it's a new hairbrush. And he's like, fuck. He's not to say that.

But that's what his face does. It's supposed to be that kind of moment. Like, oh, my God. But like I literally spent way too much time trying to be like, so, Did she always know? Because the hairbrush stuff happens in three. In four, she realizes Diane comes over and finds out that Tedros had always sort of been angling to insinuate himself in her life. So she did not know he was a con man the entire time, right?

So the idea is basically like, did she make up this hairbrush story entirely? I think the abuse was real, but the hairbrush was faced. I think what it wants to suggest is that she's the master manipulator. Right. That she got what she wanted out of this and that he was always her pawn. She's like, you're mine now. That she was always the one who was a- Because a pop star is a cult leader.

Yes. Right. But because the show, whether for budget reasons or because the lack of interest otherwise, is so deeply claustrophobic, we don't have any sense of fandom or the larger world. The show seems completely uninterested in that. It's mostly interested in, like, hot people sleeping on top of each other and saying, fuck every second word. So I don't have any larger sense of what any of this means or is trying to say.

My takeaway was that they were reaching for a real, oh, shit, moment. Like at the end of something where you realize that the basic instinct kind of thing, right? But it wasn't an erotic thriller because there were no thrills and there was very little eroticism. Are you reacting to how you think it was sold to you or are reacting to what you saw? I'm a new critic, buddy. Just the text. Okay. It was really weird. I just wanted more, honestly.

Like, I'm not joking. You are in the minority. I wanted to know what happened. I feel like I got TV-brained on this one, where like at the end of it, I was fine just floating on vibes and floating on mood and atmosphere and all of these sort of more ephemeral of qualities. And then weirdly at the end, I got like TVed out and I was just like, so wait, like, what happened to? I wanted more of her being like, I needed this guy out of my life, we got him out of my life,

and then now I'm sitting alone smoking because I realize like all the life that was in this place was around this dude. You know, like. But he's a joke. So she's a joke? Just pick a side. But that's the other thing is like,

Nikki's like, you're a genius. And then in the next scene, she's like, let's get this guy the fuck out of here. Like I can't tell like what, I actually couldn't tell what was real. It's chaos. And maybe, yeah. There is, I, again, like when if and when Sam does interviews or talks about it, you could, you can tell a version of this with intention. And that's true of anything made by people who take their work seriously. And I, and I want to be sincere about that. But new critic over here, just talking about the text, it was a, it was a really confounding mess. Because what was it, ultimately? What was this other than an act?

of ego because it didn't leave us with any story, characters, emotion, message, theme, sensation. You know, I felt gross and numb. I don't even know if World Class Center is getting released now because it got kind of lost in legal limbo. I think you can hear it on Spotify. Oh, you mean in the world of the show? Yeah.

The legal limbo. But that was to see Diane, a character with just such strong motivations. It would be like the lost recordings from Gaucho, you know what I mean? It's exactly like that. So, I mean, it was, it was kind of a bummer. I mean, were you choked up when Leah finally left? I wanted to know what was in the letter. I wanted to see Jocelyn reading the letter.

Right. You know, I wanted to kind of, I mean, I guess I just, I feel like so. Making a makeup brand with you was the dream of my life. But I have been hired by the Mattel Corporation. But really, like, we start this episode. And she's like, are you fucking still here? Get the fuck out of here. And he's like, no.

Then that scene plays out five more times, except a couple cutaways to Leah being like, yeah. Yeah, day 16. Also, like, is Xander full Tedros cult brainwashed? Is he doing something with Jocelyn? Yeah, right, right. There's questions. There's questions. Do any of us, I mean, you were, Hank Azaria's plan A, plan B.

What was plan C do you think? Because plan B, the one that he really likes, is invoking the awesome power of a monthly magazine. Yeah. That is just a keen sense. To get this guy canceled. To really change the narrative. I mean...

It's so funny, too, that you did every episode with me. Of course I did. Well, you know, you're an amazing guy sometimes. You know? Thanks. Thanks. I'll go on journeys with you. But I also do think that this show, and we are not...

Surprisingly, I think we will continue to talk about the show through this year of television because... For the rest of our... For the ride, it's going to carry this with me, like a scar. No, because this is at this really fraught moment that we're talking about, where what can get made, what gets made, who can work on things, you know, labor unrest and everything is really in flux. And this got made.

Yeah. And I... Of course it got made. It's the fucking weekend, man. Like, he just sold out SoFi. Like, he's got the biggest song in the history of Spotify. Like, it's not like, oh, my God, how'd the weekend get this one off the ground? Yes.

And he is the IP here, I guess. and I'm curious if it's damaged the brand, but that's not for me to say. Yeah, I think I've heard people say, like, oh, how will the weekend recover from this? I think he's going to be fine. I think he'll be okay. His house looks nice.

I don't mean it like that. I don't think this is going to be like, you're, you suck, man. Like, I think it's like, I think that people are also probably like, I mean, I have no idea, but I bet people's relationship with the weekend is such that they could be like,

that was a performance he was doing and now I'm going to listen to his music again. Yeah, I think the bops stay bops. Yeah. just like they do with this podcast. But I also, it's tough sometimes from with the vantage point that we take, even within, not just within this episode of The Watch, but in the larger conversation,

because it's like, fight the real enemy here. And for as much as I really, really dislike the show. You still like everything about it. You still want it to exist or the conditions under which you want something like this to be able to come into the world. There's another version of it, too where you say Sam Levinson makes euphoria,

which is a show that I also don't have a lot of time for, but I respect from a distance. And HBO, and many people, I'm not trying to create a strong man thing. It is a genuine, huge phenomena and a hit. And it is not based on IP. And it is about people.

And that is something that he made for HBO, using the power of a star, Zendaya, who chose to do that, and HBO empowered him to do it and took a chance on and spend money. on it. And that is a, weirdly, like, if you take away the specifics of the show, that's a kind of prescription for the industry. Like, we would want more things like that. So when the people responsible for that come and say, we have another thing for you, it is good stewardship to be

like, we're interested, we're listening, we're going to do it. Right? Right. Like, that is, that, we want more of that, but I have a hard time getting these words out of my mouth. I know. Because I had such problems with this result. I appreciate you engaging with. me thoughtfully on this subject. I mean, and I think that you did a good job today. Thanks, buddy. Yeah, I think you did a good job today. We should wrap it up there.

Yeah. Thanks to Kai McMullen for producing us. This is our only show this week. Because we got to start picking up Russian novels. Because next week is where we begin war in peace. Yeah. So, no, we'll be back on Monday. And I think Monday we'll be talking about the new Soderberg show, full circle.

That's exciting. And maybe we'll do some secret invage catch up or some gemstones catch up. Thanks for listening. And we'll be back next week. Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile, with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just $15 a month.

Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird. Okay, one judgment. Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full-price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra.

Seafold terms at mintmobile.com.