The Watch - ‘Mr. and Mrs. Smith’ Episodes 7 and 8 With Cocreator and Showrunner Francesca Sloane

Episode Date: February 15, 2024

Chris and Andy briefly talk about the announcement of the new ‘Fantastic Four’ cast (1:00). Then they are joined by ‘Mr. and Mrs. Smith’ cocreator and showrunner Francesca Sloane to talk about the finale of the show (15:08), working with Donald Glover to bring the story to life (34:10), and choosing Maya Erskine for the role of Jane (43:49). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Francesca Sloane Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And joining me in the studio. It's Andy Greenwald! Do you think that's just a website, not like an app? I think it has like a huge umbrella of properties, you know? Oh, it's owned by T-Mood. Yeah. Oh, okay, that makes sense. We had a lot of T-Mood talk this week.

Andy, it's great to see you. We're here with Kaya. It's, uh, what is it? Thursday. One of those Thursdays. And a great show for you guys today because we are doing a sort of Mr. and Mrs. Smith special. We have the co-creator and showrunner, Francesca Sloan on the pod today, and she was awesome. Talk to her for about.

40 minutes about the entire season, there are spoilers. So if you have not completed the first series of... Then what's wrong with you? You've had enough time. You have. Even I've finished it. Even crushed the tape green one finished. I was savoring it.

So we'll do a little... Maybe we can chat a little bit about Mr. and Mrs. Smith, which I think is probably, as you said, your favorite show of the year so far. Yeah. Hot take for Feb 15th. I know. Speaking of Feb 15, yesterday was Valentine's Day.

I hope you had a nice one. I did. Did you? Yeah, I drove to L.A.X. not for, like... That is a... an act of love. Just my kink.

You know, like, I love sitting in bumper to bumper. Were you trying to figure out what kiss and fly meant finally? Do they have one of those? I think it's just like cell phone lot at L.AX. There's no romance. But when I was a kid and I'd be driving to like 30th Street Station and there was a sign that said kiss and ride or kiss and fly, I was tantalized. I had no idea what those words in that order meant on a public sign. Can I kiss and then get on a plane?

Yeah. This is what adults do? They just smooch and commute. What adults do is they talk about the marketing for Fantastic Four movies. That's you and me. What a life we've chosen for ourselves. Yesterday, Valentine's Day, Marvel finally made official what had been the rumored cast for Fantastic Four. Matt Checkman's reboot, you know, relaunching of this, I don't know, would you say like one of the sort of Mount Rushmore titles and the Marvel?

It's the George Washington. It's the first Marvel comic. There you go. It was Fantastic Four number one. They released this, like, kind of charming. Yes, it is. Valentine's Day greeting card, postcard, that is an illustration of the cast in,

I would describe it in a kind of Jetson's motif. So this was remarkable, I think, because... And it's just so people know, Pedro Pascal is going to be playing Reed Richards, that's Kirby playing Sue Storm, Joseph Quinn. I'm watching Chris's eyes as he realized he's committed to saying their names. Johnny Quest?

Storm. Sue's brother. Okay. And Evan Moss backwreck in front of the watch as the thing. A.k.a. Mr. Rocks. Ben Grimm. Okay.

The Pride of Yancey Street. Come on. And it's this cute little domestic scene of these people hanging out. And it's like got a pink and blue kind of color story. Tell me all about it. Artist Wesley Burt did this beautiful concept art. So I think this is interesting because always. It's Wesley Burt, aka Mr. Rock.

Mr. Rocks was a character on the wire. John Quest and Mr. Rocks. So this is interesting. The other week when Joanna was ably subbing for you, we talked about this. It did feel a little unprecedented because this cast was known. I don't just mean like the industry wags knew. I mean like all the things I was being fed on the Facebook algorithm were like, Vanessa Kirby is going to, like, it seemed fairly well known.

And it was true. It was confirmed all the cast members who, have social media posted this image. It's interesting to me that they took their time with this, and I think ultimately that's probably a good thing. I also think that with this announcement, I don't want to put too much into it, but we are covering it the way as if it's a major thing, this image makes me remember that Kevin Feigey's calling card was that he understood the Marvel characters on like a granular level.

He could communicate them, you know, not Iron Man with a tortured backstory, but Rich Playboy has a broken heart. And then make the movie about that. And then obviously everything got more complicated. This image is warm, bright, lovely, and it's highlighting these characters as what they are, which is a family. That is what has made them unique in comic books. You didn't get their surname, right, but you basically understood them. So the other thing that this image seems to confirm is something that we've, I think, many people, people have heard his rumors, it does seem to be, period. Yes.

This is very kind of like go-go-60s iconography, imagery, which is what we- -Hanna-Barbera futurism. Which is kind of the gossip that we had heard. The Marvel Studios looking like the Cinerama Dome, the way it's written at the bottom, the name changed to The Fantastic Four as opposed to what you always were lobbying for, which was Fantastic Four. To another L for you. I think these are all very good signs.

I also wanted to, just as your friend, and as someone who has now explained Deadpool to more than one adult woman, I wanted to explain that that robot in the corner is Herbie. Yeah. And do you want to say it or should I, that Herbie stands for humanoid experimental robot B-type integrated electronics? But we do not have a voice actor for Herbie yet. Do you want to throw your hat in the ring?

No, I was trying to cast it out. Barry Keogh maybe? Do you know why? He's doing commercials too now, I see. Is he? Did you see that... I saw him on hot ones. He was down bad.

Well, he's... I feel like people from the UK, Ireland, like that area, they're not always the best with spices. Is that a fair to say? You don't follow some of the... Some of the Instagram accounts that I follow. I follow none of them. Which is Irish dudes just out on the weekend

getting into a curry bag. Oh, we've talked about that. They're deep in their curry bag. So Barry King's back in his bag? He said that he had had the bomb before. but it seemed like perhaps he had had not this potency level of DeBomb because he's like in his tank top by the end of this thing. Could you do that show?

Not that anyone's asked us, but could you do that? I don't, I would love to be on hot ones, I guess. I don't think that I register on that level of celebrity. I mean, long form podcast is our hot ones. Yeah, I do feel like, I just think it would make me incredibly uncomfortable. One thing that's just amazing is he seems to be, suggesting that he has literally gotten off the plane from overseas to do this show.

I cannot imagine getting off of a long flight and immediately taking down like a dozen wings with varying levels of Scoville. What about, but remember when you were like, I am the true detective in the night country because you once flew to England and it was getting dark?

Oh no, being in the permanent darkness is fine. I just don't know if I could have the bomb is like my first meal outside of a... The only reason I brought up Herbie the Robot was to say two things. one, again, this is reinforcing an idea that I think is a good one for the movie that it is

embracing some of the campier elements of the characters. The second thing is Herbie was not a comic book character. Herbie was created for the, I think it's the Hannah Barbera cartoon. Maybe it wasn't Hannah Barbarra, but when Fantastic Four, they made a cartoon in 1978. You clearly did never heard this rumor.

But I was, I remember that there was a rumor about this cartoon. I was one when it came out, so let's everybody relax. But this was a story that that human torch no one would allow the human torch to go on television because they were worried kids would light themselves on fire. I mean, honestly, it was the 70s, who knows?

Kids were encouraged to light themselves on fire. The truth is, apparently, that is much more banal that apparently like Johnny Quest, the human torch, Jesus, this is going to be a long two years of this movie comes out, apparently was optioned elsewhere. Yeah, like the Hanibal Lecter, Cleary Starling thing.

It's exactly that. You've done it So, you know, what can I say? The ultimate skeptic was charmed by this. I will just say that this broadcasts more personality than most Marvel films have had in the last five years. Yes. So fool me a hundred times. Shame on me. Like, for all I know, this can come out and it will look like, it will look like Ant Man three and it will look silly.

But look, like, think about this again. Think about it not just in a vacuum, but think about in terms of reactive to the other things that they've done. And all we know about Thunderbolts is this tortured development process where they every so often announce another person who's joining the squad. Because there is no fixed Thunderbolts. They're just like, well, David Harbor really popped in Black Widow. Let's throw him in there. They keep adding and adding. They clearly took the time to get four individuals who are, A, definitively under contract.

B, willing to share stuff on social media, but C, we're going to be a part of this. in play acting as a family for the long haul. Yeah. So good job. Good job. Good job, everybody. And good job to the folks over at Amazon. Donald Glover.

Francesca Sloan. Myer Erskine. Jeff Bezos. Jeff Bezos. Jen Salk, you know? Sure. Just an incredible television show that we're about to talk about. Mr. Mrs. Smith.

So eight episodes, about an hour each. All went up as a binge. Andy and I have been kind of piecemeal discussing it over the last couple of weeks. I guess we get into a lot of our feelings about it with Francesca. So I don't want to belabor the point, but a deeply satisfying series. I feel two extreme feelings. One, I think it was exceptional. I think it was exceptional on a practical and production level.

And we do talk a little bit about that. I'm just in terms of like, everybody walks into TV being like, I'm going to make an eight-episode movie and we're going to do X, Y, and Z thing. And these dudes not only went to Lake Como, but they shot one of the more plausibly exciting and gripping cinematic action set pieces in a while. while. They did it. They did wild stuff on the streets of New York. They made New York characters like that and I'm like, I know you haven't seen John Wick for. Which one is that?

I wasn't saying it was better than movies, but I'm saying it was better than action on TV. Okay. I understand. I was just fucking wrong. How can I just start with four? I would get lost. It's true. You really would. Do you think that's why they added the the The Fantastic Four? Because there are people who think it's a sequel to the

long-running musical The Fantastic. And it's the fourth one, yeah. Oh, you got to really hold people's hands. The other thing about this, just in terms of what it did, the show in terms of character work and deep emotional stuff and like making a show about relationships the way they are often experienced now,

but also having a lot of fun in the margins. But I'm also having that feeling of, is anyone else connecting with this? It's fallen into the prime video hole where it could well be that tens of millions of people are enjoying this and checking it out and finding it on their own time and on their own schedule. But it is a strange feeling to walk around and be like, ah, they got one.

Like, this is what I love in TV. And I'm so excited for everyone for making it. And just not knowing, not knowing where it's landing. It's a great marriage of, uh, it's a show about it. It is a great marriage. And it's a great marriage of art and commerce, I think. Like, it is a really, really tasteful, stylish, intelligent, provocative take on a piece of IP owned by Amazon, you know?

And that is, that is like, honestly, the most you can ask for right now. And I thought that this show was at once incredibly pleasant to watch and incredibly like, you know, just the vibes were really great. The clothes, the interior design, and tons of

people have talked about this. But I also thought it made me think about work, maybe think about relationships, made me think about I guess God at the end. Did you think about real estate? Because that's ultimately what everything is about New York real estate. I can't imagine what my wife would do if I just cite and see, try to

to buy a cottage. Oh, I didn't mean international. Without checking with her. I meant like, I was referring to the very... There are so many hurdles. You have hoops you have to jump through too if you're trying to buy overseas property. Wait, so what you would do? Like, do you think she'd be delighted?

No. No. She doesn't like it when I change the way I make the bed. You know, it's like... Do you try making it the other way? So you get in the long way? No, but I think I have a kind of attitude about it where it's like, it's important that like it looks neat, but since we get in it, like, how much...

like cosmetic stuff do we have to do to the making of the bed, like folding the sheet down over the quilt kind of thing? Are you a big like many, many, many, many pillows guy? Do you like live a hotel? Many, many, many pillows. Do you live that hotel life? I use one pillow for my head and one pillow for my knees because I have a backpack. That's different because, you know, people long-term listeners of the podcast know about the time that I watch you fall asleep.

Yeah, I've evolved since then from my long-term. night. Your Nospiratu style. I don't know why. It was so much easier back then. I could literally lean my head up against like a subway window and fall asleep for five minutes.

You crossed your arms over your chest. It's like Boris Karloff and you were gone. I did this in a hotel room where Andy and I were staying in Chinatown before we interviewed the Scottish post-rock band Maguire. No, incorrect. Oh.

I don't remember how you fell asleep that night. Oh, this was at Comic Con. This was at Comic Con. In San Diego, we shared a hotel room. Haven't done it since. Have we not? Do you want to? Should we?

Yeah. The same hotel room. No, let's go back to your COVID hotel. Oh. Let's go to Burbank. Another friend of ours, I won't name names, but she was telling me that she did the same thing. When she had COVID and her family didn't, she went to the same hotel and then was like scurrying to the lobby, like wearing four masks to get like water bottles or whatever. And there was a convention.

And she was getting in the elevator. And I feel like when you know that you're the COVID hotel for the greater Los Angeles Air. area. Like maybe that can play into it. Yeah, exactly. That's right. Like maybe build an indoor water park or something just to kind of seal the deal. Why don't we get into our interview with Francesca? Because it's a hefty one and she was so generous with her time. We will be back on Sunday night to talk about the finale of True Detective. Yeah. And we can't wait to talk to people then. Until then, we were produced by Kaii McMullen and we'll talk to you soon. Have a great weekend, Bernankees. Watch Mr. Mrs. Smith.

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it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me, the Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active Cash, terms apply. We're so, so psyched to be joined by Francesca Sloan, who's the co-creator and showrunner of Mr. and Mrs. Smith, which I think is probably our favorite show of the year, albeit, I know we're in February, but we can say it.

There's a little dig when you say that. We're on February 15. We could stop potting now, and that would be. It's our number one. You did it. Francesca, thanks for joining the watch. Yeah, thank you so much for having me, and thanks for loving the show so much. It really means a lot. It really means a lot to me.

We have to, we have a lot of questions about the finale and about the season as a whole, the creation of the show. But I did read that you are also from Philadelphia, and we just need you to confirm or deny this before we get started. Oh, I am so truly, absolutely from Philadelphia. No wonder we like the show. This is just such a clear reason now. Now we felt like it was speaking to us. The Pennsylvania joke was a little, that was like my M. Knight Shamelani. Yeah.

Your M-night Shyamalan would be moving back to Philly and getting court-side Sixers tickets, right? Yeah, that's true. That's more like long-term goals. Or finding out that Jane was a ghost all along. Yeah. Oh, that was good, yeah. Season two, you never know. That's what we want.

So specifically for the finale, and obviously if you're listening to this, we are going to be spoiling the entirety of the first season of Mr. and Mrs. Smith. I have to start here. Francesca, you killed the cat. This violates the number one rule of modern screenwriting. which, as many people know, is captured in the book literally called Save the Cat. Can you defend this decision? No, I cannot. But I'll try.

You know, we talked about this early, early days in the writer's room. And we just needed to get to this place where we could actually buy that they might at least attempt to try and kill each other based on sort of this crucial misunderstanding. And the only thing that could really get us there that made any real sense was unfortunately to take Max out. So brutal, but it kind of just felt like it's story-wise, it felt the most honest. I love cats, but better cats than Beverly. You know, better cats than that. That seems like that's what the option was, right? Like that was in play as well, yeah.

Exactly, exactly. I thought that the finale was so awesome just because, you know, my favorite part as obvious was, I think, for a lot of people as well, was the truth serum slash MDMA scene, which I thought it was really just like an incredible narrative engine to get these people to finally be honest about themselves and how they feel to one another. But I was curious for you,

you know, the entire season is this balancing BMACT where you're not, you're having these people talk in these incredibly natural ways about each other, but not giving a lot of expository background information. So when you finally have these people under the influence and they're kind of talking openly about one another,

where did you want to sort of draw the line as to far as how much they are going to actually say to each other there? Yeah, that's a great question. That was the first thing that I came up with for the entire show was the truth serum component because I thought how great it would be to sort of have these people sort of being cagey

and then giving us this release and giving them an opportunity even as actors to have that release too. And, but in terms of how far it went, it was sort of a big conversation back and forth and even changed a lot once Maya came into the fold, the whole Japanese component really shifted, you know, like initially we, that story about the pancakes with the pedophile, you know, that we sort of reveal in the pilot is actually based on an anecdote on a, uh, from Donald's wife.

Okay. And I just, when I heard that story, I actually, I had the reaction, oh, wow, this really says everything about a young person to have that sort of brazen feeling. And I was talking to some of the writers in the room, two of which, you know, happened to be Asian and then even Maya about it. And that actually, like, that's something like that would have terrified them based on their upbringing and based on how they sort of like floated around in the world. And so I thought, oh, how interesting could it be then if she's trying to act like this person who would have no problem with that.

But actually, there's this vulnerability about her that she was actually terrified the entire time. Once that kind of came into play, the rest of the truth serum sequence felt like it had to live in that sandbox in terms of what we're learning about them, where it feels very character-driven and very specific. And then hopefully that can transcend into something a little bit more universal. you know so for instance john's asthma and and that actually being anxiety and what does that mean for him as a man what does that mean for him specifically as a black man what does that mean specifically for john donald playing john so as specific as we could possibly get that felt like the right place now with that said we cut about i don't know if that scene was really really yeah yeah yeah so

Donald and I sort of just went back and forth and just let everything pour out. I'm kind of overwrote intentionally. And then we just sort of allowed the performances and in post decide what really needed to stick and what really needed to go. But it was a lot. It was a very, very long scene. So much of being a showrunner is a wild balancing act. And I wanted to stay where you were with that final scene in terms of the balancing act between the highly specific and also the broadly universal general. because that was such a remarkable tightrope act throughout the season.

You have characters who are play acting as people they are not under fake names. You intentionally give us bits and pieces of them throughout like the story you're referring to. But you also keep some things very vague and yet somehow made us feel very connected to these characters as individual people. Can you talk a little bit broadly in terms of your role of showrunner, running the writers, how you did that balancing act? When did you know when to push things forward in terms of this is Michael and Alana versus when to push things forward as this is John and Jane? And a lot of married people might recognize some of these scenarios, not the ones of the guns, but the other ones. You know, I think one of the first things that we wanted to talk about was who these people were before they arrived to each other in that brownstone. and what were they missing and really like why were they this lonely in the first place?

And so when you start there, you know, we really understood that they both felt like failures in the world. And if they're both quietly feeling like they are failures, then there's automatically sort of this bond between them that they are filling each other up to be something greater than what they were before they entered that brownstone. And so long as we were sort of staying on the track of that, I kind of feel like the rest of it, we did not overseen. We sort of just then started allowing them to become who they were as John and Jane and sort of let them, you know, relieve themselves of who they were in the past. And those things just sort of organically kept creeping back in

because we knew that Jane was this guarded individual who was falling in love for the very first time. We already established that John is sort of this mama boy who wants to live up to who his father was, who was this great heroic person and sort of this hero, and that he never really felt like he could fill those steps. And so knowing who they were in that sense and then letting them play against each other and let their relationship sort of dictate how they were growing or moving backwards because of one another, it just sort of then happened really naturally to tell that story without thinking too hard about how Michael versus John or Alana versus Jane. One of my favorite things about the way the season is structured is the way that you effortlessly sort of move through time. So when these episodes start, there are allusions to how long it's been. Maybe there's several missions or there's an anecdote about something that they've done together.

that obviously happened in between the episodes. What was the timeline like in the writer's room? Is there a whiteboard with like a master sort of chronology of this? And I'm curious how you were able to indicate time passing without actually explicitly having like seven days later or two months later. Yeah, we definitely, I'm glad that that's been reading and I'm glad that you're appreciating that. We absolutely did.

It was vaguely to us about a year. And it felt like it should feel like these. two people, whether they're aware of it or not, are sort of adrenaline junkies. So if they do start actually falling in love, it will be this flash and the pan romance of things escalating very quickly, especially because they're sort of dealing with life and death situations with one another and whatnot. And so for us, what mattered most was sort of just showing that these milestones could happen and alluding to things like you're saying, you know, different art on the walls. They're starting to spend their own money. You know, we really,

thought about it and I feel like this is one place where I wish we could have given even more details to this. Like we wanted the house to start getting a little bit crudier and a little bit dear and more fingerprints on things and you know, but that was always the hope. We even joked at one point of like showing Max getting much fatter but like fucking an identical cat is apparently really hard to do that can act. But yeah, we we thought of it as you know, you know, late summer to late summer. And then all that really matter to us then is sort of getting to this place

where they can, boy meets girl, fall in love, get closer, things start to go to shit, and so on and so forth in a way that felt real. I really like the idea of Amy Sibet saying, bring me the bigger cat now, like for a shot. So the season is obviously, and this is in the episode descriptions,

built in the arc, a recognizable arc of a relationship. Chris and I, in talking about the show and enjoying the show, I think both of us were kind of torn between loving that artful construction and being able to see each step along this path, but also at times being like, I wish she wasn't yada yadaing all these other missions. This is working on such a unique way for the contemporary...

We're being mission, guys. We love missions. Yeah. But it's working in such a unique way for contemporary television where it is a one-season event, but also kind of... I mean, I know maybe it would have been harder for you, but we kind of would have been happy with 20 of these, you know? I remember, I heard you guys saying that. I was really touched by that, but I also gave me like slight PTSD to think about what it was taken to think that.

But I was really flattered by that. I guess I wonder then that sort of the nature of that conversation, because you're making TV for Amazon, you're making TV with actors who have a lot of things going on. You know, tomorrow is never promised in contemporary television. So how early on was the decision that this was going to be this year, this arc of a relationship and then building it that way? Very early. We definitely did bat around other versions of the show.

We even batted around other versions where, you know, it is closer to the film in the sense that it is a marriage that has existed and it's just no longer shiny. And they're sort of at a crossroads of not knowing how they feel about each other. And we also thought about doing a show that felt like a little bit more thriller-esque and you know, taking things down a different road of, you know, being like conspiratorial and all of these things. But we always just kept coming back to this relationship story. That was the thing that drew Donald and I to the project in the first place. His brother, Stephen Glover, who's like wonderfully brilliant, but always says things in this very simple way, almost like, it almost

feels like philosophical sometimes with Steve. And he just said, man, it's about the relationship. just remember it's not the relationship. So when he would say that, suddenly telling the story, at least for me, felt easier. And I wasn't hitting my head against a wall so hard. And so when that felt like the right place to go and it felt like the right place for the other writers, we realized that that was the adventure for us pretty early days. I think we want to go back a little bit more in terms of the genesis of the show. But since we're starting at the end, I want to talk about the end.

The end can be read a number of ways. It is ambiguous, but it's also possible to read it as quite definitive. Can you talk a little bit about the decision-making behind what you wanted to show and what you take away from it? Because, you know, this is probably baked into the commentary that we wish we had 20 episodes. We would be very happy to have 20 more, please. I love that. You know, I think, I actually think audiences are really intelligent.

and I think that the world could really benefit from smart TV and smart films and things like that. But one of the things that really excited us all is that it kind of allows you to decide. Like if you are a glass-half-full type of person, John and Jane, you know, end up surviving and or at least one of them, if you're sort of a somewhere in the middle person.

A glass quarterful kind of person, yeah. Last quarter full person. And then there's another version, obviously, where, you know, they have met their demise. And it's sort of more like a Butch Cassidy in the Sundance and then North Elman Louise. It really depends on the individual in that way. And that felt exciting to us. It also felt, I have to say, like a little bit like a Twitter meme from five years ago where it's just like Parker Posey murder me inside my panic room, mommy.

You know what I mean? It felt like very, very intentional. Yeah, totally. Donald would freaking love that, actually. And Donald would love that. I think speaking to meme and internet culture is sort of his forte in a lot of ways, actually. Do you not to, you know, a lot can change. Things are always very fluid. But like, did you walk away from the season being like, well, Amazon, let us know we would love to make more? Because it's not just that you leave the season being like there's more Donald and Maya. You created a larger, reinvention of the franchise, where there's other opportunities to revisit it. So in terms of where your conversations with Amazon left off, was it like, let us know once you get your data?

Do you have thoughts and desires to do more, or are you letting it lie? We definitely wanted to tell a story that felt complete on its own, should we not ever get hired to do anything ever again? But we definitely, you know, wanted to create a world, like you said, you know, now you know that anyone could be a Mr. and Mrs. Smith. And there's a lot of things that you could do with that. That was very intentional in case we did want to on our own and also get the blessings from Amazon to go forward. You know, there's definitely more story for us to tell.

But yes, we are, I mean, full transparency, yes, like we have to wait for the protocol and wait for the data and see all of that. But as you're making it, this thing took us, we started writing this thing together in 2020. Yeah. And then I had a kid and, you know, like so much life stuff happened. My father passed and some other people on crew loss. There's so much so much life happens when you're making something like this. So it really became about telling the one complete story and doing that the best you could.

But you always have backup ideas, you know, your imaginative dreamers. You can't help it, but keep on going when you love something. You bought all this fat cats. Yeah, I know. Seriously. I hear them in the background. Three fat cats that need work. I was curious about, you know, when Andy and I talk,

especially a lot about what you would probably term prestige dramas over the last couple of years, like succession, whatever. Like a lot of the times when we're talking about these fictional characters, we slip into, and I think in general people when they're talking about shows slip into talking about the characters like they're real people, kind of maybe even evaluating those characters based on their own sense of morals and ethics and, you know, it's like, is Kendall a good guy kind of thing?

You know, like, and it really informs a lot. It's a funny phenomenon of modern television discourse that's happened, but one of the things that I really was sort of attracted to with Mr. and Mrs. Smith was the blank slate nature of the characters. Like, you're basically watching two people who could, honestly, they could make up anything they wanted to about each other, right? Like, they could say, yeah, I went to Harvard and I was in the Navy, and I played football,

but you could have gone to Ohio State and played baseball and not been in the Navy. It doesn't matter. Obviously, the John character is a little bit more forthcoming and retains more connections to his past. But when you're writing characters whose intention is to be blank,

does it make you as a writer think about, like, character as an idea anyway? It really does. And I will say, like, that, it made me so happy. I heard you talk about that. it was the thing that made this the most compelling to write in the first place and also absolutely the most challenging because you're still trying to create connections with them

and you're still wanting an audience to invest in these two people. But with that in mind, with sort of this blank slate and without giving too much away and then what is it that you are then clinging to? It really then does become about moments. And, And in that way, it sort of is, you know, having a conversation with falling for someone when you don't know them yet. And so it was the most challenging thing to write for me personally because of that exact thing, but it was also the thing that got me the most excited about doing it this way. Out of everything about the show. That was the thing that made me the most excited. Chris, your deep thoughts are landing.

I'm very impressed by that. You took a flyer on that. Francesca, it's been covered in other interviews you've done, and I think generally in the coverage of the show, some of the TikTok about how this came together. And part of it was the rights holders were interested in someone reviving this brand, this IP, and they came to Donald with it. And you and Donald had worked together on Atlanta.

So he brought this to you. Can you talk us through that back and forth, back in 2020, from your perspective? Like, is it a text? Is it a, hey, let's wear masks and eat lunch outside? I have something to talk to you about. Was your reaction incredulous laughter? Was it one of those things where you say, that's a terrible idea, you hang up, and then you

call them back five minutes later? Like, where did the breadcrums start to be laid down for you that made this something that you wanted to spend? Maybe you didn't know the next four years, but certainly a good chunk of time on. I actually remember exactly. So I had just started renting this little back house in Highland Park just to have some way of getting out of my house to go right and work. I was actually developing two other things at the time.

And I was in the car. It was a really hot day. I was on my way there. And Donald texted me. And, oh, let me go back a little bit. We knew we wanted to find something to do together. I wasn't sure how serious he was about that or not. But he had at least expressed that to me.

And I obviously was down to do it. But he's a guy that can go to a galaxy far, far away at any moment. Like, metaphorically, and otherwise, you're waiting. Exactly, exactly. So he, I was driving and he texted me and he said, hey, what, what if we do Mr. and Mrs. Smith together? And I thought he was joking. So I sent back, you know, like that emoji there, like, of a giraffe, like not the little ones, but the big ones of like, I sent back to the giant giraffe because I thought, I don't know if he's joking or not, and he won't

know what this reaction means. So right now, while I'm driving, I'm just going to send this giraffe, and then I'll call him back and see what the hell he's talking about. It's interesting strategy. So I sent him that giraffe Sorry, I have to stop Did you have giraffe in most use? Because otherwise it's very unsafe If you're scrolling through Being like this one is

I do use this giraffe often You're searching for big giraffe Yeah, right Okay, please go on One of the big ones where you can like Also like make it record and like Oh yeah The face, the giraffe face

Maybe it's a moji or I don't know Yeah Okay, we'll allow it, continue Yeah, yeah So I sent that I used to be a safe driver because I do use it frequently. I was like,

Boop, giraffe. Okay, deal with this later. Anyway, then he called me. I was at this little backhouse pacing around, and he was like, hey, do you want to do Mr. Mrs. Smith? Michael Schaefer,

who at the time was working for New Regency, brought it to him. And I started laughing. Not like, not big, giant laughter, but I was just like, what are you talking about? Like, are you joking? And he said, no, I'm like completely serious.

He's like, I know it's a weird one. but I kind of like what a big swing it is. And when Donald says I kind of like, it means Donald really likes. And I started realizing how serious he was about it. Now, while we started talking about it, you know, about taking an action spy thriller, making it about a relationship,

making it about in-between moments. We even joked around about maybe there's one time where there's this huge giant mission that you just never actually even get to see. they just like run back into the car and there's like a monkey with a banana gun or something. We got really excited about telling a story in that way. Also the concept of like a really meta match for Donald, like who would be cast. It did start to get really exciting and then it started to become more and more real.

But with that said, he was like, when do you want to pitch this to Amazon? on like our version of it once we get it together. And I said, you know, I'm doing these two other projects. Can we wait a few months? He's like, yeah, yeah, that's all good. An hour later, he's like, what if we pitch this next week? Yeah. So he's high high, basically.

That's where a lot of this comes from. Exactly. And I was like, all right, dude. Yeah, let's do it. I'll like, and let's get it together. Would you like a replacement project? Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. Yeah. Do you want another John? and it's me. And the answer ended up being yes. And I'm really glad. I got to make something with one of my best friends and a bunch of our best friends. It was a blast.

So I'm really interested as an observer. And Chris and I had the chance to talk to both Glovers once for an FYC event. But Donald's really uncanny sense of himself and his own abilities. Not just that he's a confident guy because that's well covered and he talks about it in that really good THR interview that you guys did. But the use of him and the use of his particular. abilities in this was really fascinating because he is an autore himself he's a director he's a writer he can develop anywhere he wants with anything but as a vehicle for his idea is what motivates him as a vehicle for what is particularly charismatic and vulnerable about him as an actor as a vehicle for someone who is

at a place in his career where he can take the biggest swings with the biggest what's the metaphor is a bat in this i guess we'll go baseball the biggest bat um but also subvert it i found it really fascinating. So I wonder if you could talk about that observation just from the perspective of a collaborator, you know, because he is putting his cultural capital on the line with us, but he's also front center on the screen. I think, yeah, I mean, his awareness of himself in the world is part of his genius. I always talk about him as sort of a cultural futurist. He just has the sense of sort of like what is going to hit before it even happens in this way that's sort of unparalleled to a lot of people. I think very few people have that very specific kind of skill in the way that he has it.

And I think he's really good at sort of collecting other people that have other kinds of skills. He sort of creates like an Avengers of talent where it's like, you know, he has that sensibility, whereas Hero Marai has a sensibility of sort of taking quiet moments and knowing exactly when to make them feel really loud. And, you know, in terms of me, he sort of understood that like taking this very sort of female perspective and making Jane the actual hero of the story could be a really interesting place. He's just very aware of those things. Now, in terms of him becoming John, you know, as opposed to a Brad Pitt and making it a Donald Glover, he understood the assignment in that. He knew how the internet would react to it. He leaned into that in terms of press and in

terms of even dealing with marketing, it was all about all of us being really aware and calling ourselves out and us knowing what we were trying to do and not trying to get one over on people. All of us just being like, yeah, we're doing this. We're trying to make something different. We're trying to make the reject Mr. and Mrs. Smith. That's why this is fun for us. Give it a shot if you like it. Great. If you don't, that's totally fine too. Then maybe it's just not for you. And that was sort of, it's a very, very Donald approach to everything. You know, you guys are putting together the show and you talked about focusing on the relationship, the interest you had in the blank slate of the character, the nature of the characters.

I was also wondering kind of an action show, right? And it was curious whether, you know, it has an aesthetic that is not going to be unfamiliar to people who watched Atlanta or have seen some of hero's stuff or seen some Amy Simons' stuff and the vibes are definitely there, but there's also car chases in Lake Como and explosions. and I was wondering whether or not for you, did you revisit any action thriller texts or films that you kind of wanted to draw from or be like, huh, so like, what's a good car chase?

Like, you know, like what would make? Yeah. Yeah, we did. We did a lot of that. I mean, we watched a shit ton of like French connection and things like that. And then, you know, lots of hitchcock and, but I will say, like, we, there was a point in time where the action was even more subdued. And I feel like it's pretty subdued for the most part.

But as we were shooting, you know, we shot all of the New York episodes first. And there was this sort of excitement on set when we got to do some real action. And there was some excitement from Donald and Maya. And I started realizing in real time along with our producers, like, you know what? Audiences might get itchy for some more. And so long as always was in conversation directly with the relationship, why not allow the action to sort of start getting bigger and bigger. And that was sort of an on-the-fly shift that sort of happened while we were already mid-shooting. The show sort of telling us what it wanted it to be in terms of that.

And that's why, for instance, like, you know, the episode with Ron in Italy, we have like this big, huge action sequence because we started to realize that the story kind of asked for that in that moment. And then you can have it go get really quiet again and it becomes a little play in this little cottage again between the three characters. But yeah, it was like this living breathing thing and the action sort of kept dictating to us what it needed to do as we were shooting and it would get bigger or smaller. The storytelling is present throughout all of it because like, you know, in the in the first episode, they're super nervous about delivering a box and by Lake Como, they're like bantering with each

other while they drive at high speeds through winding mountain roads and shoot out windows. I mean, it's really like it's evident that this has now become their jobs, you know. Exactly. We wanted that and we wanted to feel like you can sort of earn. earn the finale. We wanted to show them like bit by bit earning that shoot

them up in that house in a way that felt real. I think the decision by Phoebe Wallerbridge to leave the project has been well covered. I'd like to talk to you about the decision to hire Maya.

Like how that went down. She's extraordinary in the show. I think you're right to say that she is the hero of it in a way and the way that she plays it is so subtle and so moving and it's so organic throughout. and their chemistry is outrageous.

And you don't get that scene at the end that you said you overwrote and then cut down without their absolute delight in each other. You know, like Donald's laughter is so generous and real that he's delighted by her. So can you talk me through that decision? Was it her name floated in the room? Did someone suggest it?

Was it an easy yes? Did you bring her in? How did that happen? Yeah, I would talk about Maya all day every day. I love her so much. And I do think she's just incredible. and the two of them together. I'm so in love with them together.

We were on a text thread with Carmen Kubo, who's one of the most legendary casting directors and a really good friend of ours. And she was actually the first person to say Maya. And what was so weird about that, though, is as she texted Maya, I was actually in Santa Barbara at the time, walking up and down on the beach,

having an anxiety attack about like, what are we going to do about this? Siri, what is it? like being a Hollywood screenwriter? What giraffe works in that situation? There is one. It's a brain exploding. So if you ever need it, it's a good one.

But so I was texting Maya's name at that exact time. And I'm not like a big one for signs or things like that, but I thought, huh, that's really interesting because I also had that thought in my mind. Then we asked Hero Morai, he said Maya, without knowing that this name was being floated now, a few different times. I then asked my sisters, they said Maya. It was a weird thing.

And I don't want to interrupt you. When you're texting Hero, are you saying, we need someone who can do X, Y, and Z? Did he, Cyrro already know the script? Or did you just blank say, who is Jane? Hero knew the script,

because we had done a version of the pilot that changed quite a bit, but we, so, and he was already like, you know, that's our buddy. And he was so busy and was, like, finishing Atlanta, but it was clearly we were going to,

like, manipulate him to come on board and direct, at least the first two episodes. So we were all sort of, and he, he, we knew we needed a Jane. And so he had said Maya. Now, I don't, that was all just based on a gut reaction. Now, and reflecting back, like, why Maya, I think it really was because she's so brave with her vulnerabilities. She's not afraid to like utterly humiliate herself and then sort of make that a strength. And she's just such a good actor and like I really wanted to show that she can do so many things. It just felt like an exciting thing. Now Donald just facetimed her just to catch a vibe and she assumed that it was

for like a small part to be on the show that she didn't know much about. She liked the concept of sort of reject Mr. and Mrs. Smith and then he was very coy about it and then toward the end she started realizing that he was actually calling her to play Jane, which she was shocked by and surprised by. And then I had a Zoom with Maya and we connected so immediately, so easily. She wanted to do all of like the most humiliating things between the two characters. We weren't sure if John would do this or Jane would do this. Like famously, now we keep talking about how Maya really wanted to be the character that had IBS versus John. And that was like, this is our girl, you know?

And we all just met up in New York. There was like kind of an awkward table read with like all of everybody, you know, all of the execs in Amazon and whatnot. But then Hero, Maya, Donald and I got a little hotel room and we sort of did a very casual rehearsal. And there was just magic between them. And they were just making each other laugh so much. And it felt like they had known each other for much longer than they had.

And I remember Hero taking me to the side and looking. I mean, he's like, hey, Fran, this is, this is really going to work. And I felt it. I really, I saw it. I got chills watching them together, which was really exciting. It's, it's amazing to watch because it's not just, you know, and Chris was referring to the action moments, which they both pull off with the plumb, but the moments that stick with me about the show, a lot of them are in what I thought of is maybe, maybe my favorite episode,

I'm not sure, come back to me, but the penultimate one, the therapy episode. Yeah, it's so, it's so exceptional because you ask so, much of everyone all the time. And what sticks with me, though, is the walks away from the house, which is anyone who's ever done therapy like that knows that's where the real stuff happens. And their physical presence with each other is remarkable because they are walking with shared history, even though they are trying to have fun after the first one and have a joint enemy in Sarah Paulson. And then they can't hide it anymore for the second one. But that intimacy, you cannot fake. It's remarkable to watch. I'm so glad that you feel that way. They'll be so happy to be.

hear that too. But we, you know, full disclosure, that was a reshoot. And so, you know, sometimes, like, as much as it's a headache, you know, the universe can be sort of kind because at that point, we had all been through so much. And the two of them really were so close. So the history was now there at that point. But it really benefited us at the end because of the performance felt exactly what you're describing. So what's up next? You know, this, like, you worked on this for four years. It comes out a binge. Wait, I have a question about that. Before we, before we give her the softball, I got a couple hard balls.

Okay, let's do it. I have some Amazon questions. Okay. Feel free, I know this is a podcast. Starting the show, the way it starts with Scars Guard, was that always the plan or was that a, hey, we need more action in the show. Blink twice if you don't want to talk about it. No, we can totally talk about it.

But you're a very astute watcher because, yeah, I mean, it was not necessarily we need more action. It was, we need to sort of, and I actually don't disagree with this, we need to set up states. What could happen? And it does track with what happens to our characters. It does. And actually, it was really, Donald Hero and I, this is another one of those moments where, like, working with your friends and having this connection is really fantastic, because we all separately sort of came to the same idea. We were like, we need a new beginning. And we all sort of arrived to, along with Amazon, this notion of, you know, another Mr. Mrs. Smith couple. But like what we like about it is we're being naughty, winky assholes because it's like,

hey, if different creators made this show, this would be the show you put the entire time. But we're going to give you this for a few minutes and then get rid of them and then bring in our real show, which is sort of how we navigate it all that. But it also still does do an authentic thing, which is show you, you know, Ghost of Christmas Future States. at the same time without just being assholes. That makes sense. I also think that I keep referring to you, and I guess you've heard to say this,

like this does seem like, and I don't know, I don't know what it was like behind the scenes, but in some ways an ideal marriage of what you and Donald and your creative community have built with the financial poll of an Amazon,

because as you were saying, so many of your friends are involved in the show behind the camera and in front of the camera, you and I'm sure Donald and Steve and here are people they can call and they'll show up and be there to be a part.

of something like this. But clearly you could also say, hey, Amazon, we're going to shoot a fight scene on the high line and at the Whitney. We're going to go to Lake Como. Those feel like the best kind of flexes because you pulled it off. What were those conversations like in terms of how big you felt you could dream and then getting it over the finish line? Because it's not just we're going to go to Italy, it's we're going to do a cinematic action scene that works in Italy. Right. I mean, I was greatly intimidated. by the budget actually. But at the same time, like what an incredible opportunity to just sort of dream as big as you possibly could and become like 13 year old kids and say, hey, what would be like the coolest way to sort of show action and we're allowed to do it. I will, this credit though, belongs really to our producer Anthony Katagas. He's like this old school New York guy. And he just took a bunch of us scrappy kids that knew nothing about anything really. And just never said no to us.

You know, he's just that kind of producer that gets excited for the challenge to make it a yes. And so because we had him and he was sort of our liaison and then sort of calming Amazon down as we went through these things, he sort of became our person that just let us figure out how to dream as big as we could and then make those things actually happen. I feel like your showrunner brain will appreciate this, but in conversations I've had with other people who have done that job and who make TV, there's just. this, there's this respectful shake of the head. Like, because, you know, you're, because they're watching the show being like, if they went to Italy, you're working with local crews and you're

having to, like, bridge these language divides and also hit the ground running with the show that you've been making, if you made it in that order. Blow up pieces of Lake Como real estate. Yeah. And then make, and somehow stitch together some, not just consistency between the show as a whole, but also, like, cash the check that you're writing. Not literally Amazon's check, but like, okay, we're going to do a driving sequence here. It's got to be the right one. It's got to look good. Yeah. I mean, the Italy stuff, we had Carina direct, and she's incredible. She's like this incredible young director, but she was the most organized person I've ever seen on the planet, which helped ease everyone, including Amazon, because there was a really,

really concrete plan of how to sort of tackle all of that, which definitely helped. Our stunt coordinators were amazing. It was just like a really good team of really capable people. And I will say this is like one very corny anecdote, but like the Italian crew was incredible. And I've never had this experience on set before. When we wrapped the final shot, every single person who worked on that show hugged each other. There was not any hug one another when we wrapped. It was really freaking sweet. It was adorable.

And then how long were the COVID delays after those hugs? Those happened throughout production. Don't worry. Yeah. We had to stop and go so many times because of freaking COVID. Last Amazon question, the show was dropped as a binge. How do you feel about that creatively and how is that explained to you by them? Like, how do they say to you, hey, guys, this is our method of doing things and this is why we think this is best for your show?

You know, initially there was some conversation about it being, you know, it would drop weekly. It became, that went away rather fast even before we finished shooting. And the notion is just, you know, it's algorithms and language that I will never understand, nor do I ever want to understand. But I do think there's something to, when somebody visits, you know, one of these apps, you know, there's something to sort of drawing people in and keeping them there. That is how things go with streaming right now. when people watch like a Netflix or an Amazon,

I feel like there's that language now. And I get that. I think I was initially, Donald and I both were like, oh, it would be so fun to sort of feel like that classic version. Yeah, to have like two months of people watching this. Yeah. Exactly. Take your time.

Like that's part. I love like succession days of like everyone gathering around again and watching and getting excited to watch the new episode of the week. But, you know, I also wasn't like terribly heartbroken either. You know, it's just one of those things. And it's not such a twisty show that if somebody's on five and somebody's on three, they can't still chat about it, like broadly. You know what I mean?

Like, it's, I think ultimately it was, it was cool. Chris is saying that because he spoiled true detective for me last night. I did. So he's trying to make it seem like, it's cool. I thought he was done. It's fine. I just want you to know what's really going on in here. You know, I like, I watched that show The Curse.

and somebody messaged me, and I was really tired on a Friday, and they're like, did you see the finale yet? And I was just like, I'm going to have to push through now and watch this before this gets ruined for me on the internet. And that's the best way to watch any art is because you're obligated to. Yeah, exactly, with a gun to your head. Okay, now, Chris, you can ask you. Oh, no, I was just going to say, what's next?

What are you up to you next? Do you take some time off after all of this, or do you have anything that you're excited about? I'm taking a little time off. I'm going to go with my child. and hang out by the beach and try not to have an existential crisis and just like reconnect with things that matter and like nothing makes you more humbled than a toddler. That's for sure. And but yeah, I mean, we'll see if a season two comes around. Donald and I are definitely

talking about that. And my friend Yvonne who wrote on the show has a really fantastic, very charming, very special show that we're trying to get made called Hannah with the dogs. It's like like an erotica comedy about a woman who loses her faith in God and finds it again through animatronic talking dog puppets because she becomes a dog walker and it's fantastic and it's so freaking funny. So yeah, I mean, just trying to keep making stuff with friends and stuff that feels good to write. Before we let you go, can I just ask you about that point?

Because, again, I don't want to infer anything about your relationships with all these people that you're working with, but you have referred to working with friends enough that I feel comfortable to ask, which is to say that in this industry, there are plenty of high-profile people who have big overall deals and they often star in them. The track record of those people

then empowering other people who they work with and lifting them up and giving them opportunities is mixed. I wondered what kind of community, Donald and Stephen, and the rest of this crew have created that you continue to feel a part of it

and that you're continuing to work with each other. How you would describe that from being on the inside of it? I think, you know, when you look back at like, you know, like Christopher Guest or Casavetes or anything like that or even like Adam Sandler, now that I'm in this, I actually understand what that's about because it's so hard. We're so lucky and privileged to be able to make television or make films or whatever it is. But it's grueling, it's tough and it's long hours. And the fact that. that you have a shorthand with somebody where you can actually just understand each other. So that way when you do disagree, there's trust in place without having to overly explain where you're going with something or why and the ego components of it go away. Why would you not continue to just keep doing that?

And I think Donald's just also really smart about it's not just like kumbaya, like these are my buddies. He has really talented friends. And Stephen and Donald understand. that in helping their talented friends, they're doing something that's very kind and good for a lot of really good people, but it's also creating really good content and they're making good work because of it. And so I think it's also really strategical and smart and business savvy also. Well, Francesco, we love the show. We'd love having the chance to talk to you. We're very excited

for the next opportunity you have to use a giraffe emoji. Yeah. Because that text from him can come at any time. That's true. And enjoy season two, 20 episodes. order. I hope that's fun. Thank you very much. I really do appreciate it. And the love that you have for the show has like, so many people have sent me, you know, what you guys have been saying and I listened and I was so touched. Thank you for thinking so deeply about it. It's easy when it's this good. Yeah, it's a gift to us. So thank you. Thanks so much. All right. Bye, guys. Thank you so much.