The Watch - Netflix Plüs, the Dominance of ‘Grey’s Anatomy,’ ‘Girls5Eva,’ and ‘Mare of Easttown’ Episode 4

Episode Date: May 10, 2021

Chris and Andy talk about the news that Netflix is reportedly testing a service called N-Plus that would include podcasts about shows and other expanded watching experiences (4:05). After getting renewed for an 18th season, ‘Grey’s Anatomy’ might be the most dominant show on television right now (13:23). Plus, love for ‘Girls5Eva’ (22:21) and breaking down ‘Mare of Easttown’ Episode 4 (29:07). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Terms apply. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line. Time for a family meeting. It's Andy Greenwald. That was a good one. That was a good one.

I think I'm back in my hot streak with intros, just self-enointed hot streak. Andy, it's Monday in America. How are you? We were produced by Kaya McMullen, who is also here with us, and we are here to talk about television and pop culture in general, which is just what these dudes do. Chris is coming out of the weekend on fire. I love it. That's right. Well, I went to a live sporting event on Sunday. day night. I was with all my people, man. We went to the Lakers. With all my people, I mean like one friend and then there was a lot of people at the Lakers game. But it was a cool experience to get back out there, man. Did you heckle? Like, did you just take from your diaphragm just all the invective you stored up for the last year and just let it rain down on the- It was a lot like an English football

match with like people doing chance, except they were just all screaming for whatever kind of vaccine they So it's just like Johnson, Johnson. That's cool. So you had to show your card to get into the Staples Center. You got to show a card to get into this outer ring of Staples Center to get in there. Is that why LeBron has not been in the building? He's even unable to show his car. Brom was there.

Brown was chilling. He was wearing very cool all black outfit. Like he was very cool sneakers. He was like within, you know, shouting distance of me. And plus like, so it's weird because they have like the in arena entertainment is the same. even though it's like there's only a couple thousand people there, but they're still blasting DMX. So it's kind of like an odd experience of like,

you basically are there to listen to rap music for three hours and also there's a basketball game. I just think it's amazing because you are not a fan of the Lakers. You're not a fan of the Phoenix Suns. You're a fan of basketball. I don't mean to sell you short here. But with a limited number of people allowed in, I feel like every seat counts, every voice matters.

And you just having like a casual conversation about the music biz or whatever, that's going to ring out more loudly than in a normally crowded, you know, arena. Yeah, I mean, I didn't voice any opinions. I was there more as like an anthropological experiment. You know what I mean? Like, I wanted to see what, like,

a live communal experience was like at this point. I appreciate that. I wish you had voiced some of your more dangerous opinions. You know what I mean? That the ones that society are trying to silence you for? Like, what if I was just, like, took my mask off and started screaming about how McKill Bridges should be a sixer right now?

Well, that is not a controversial opinion. That I think you should have done. Andy, today on the show, we're going to do Mera Vestown, as we always do on Monday. Another great episode last night. We're also going to talk a little bit about Girls 5Evo, which is a new show in Peacock that you and I adore. People may be wondering what the schedule is for the Bureau recaps that we're doing. Unfortunately, we're going to need to take an extra week here because of some travel. So we will be back with that, I believe, next week we'll do Bureau seasons three and four.

and then we'll cap it off with five and a very exciting guest who's going to be joining us hopefully for our last episode. So really exciting stuff coming on the Bureau, but let's get... Is the guest a representative

from the Caliphate? From this is to talk about representation on the show? From Rukmini's podcast or from the actual Caliphate. Oh no, no. I mean, like, literally from Le Tatis Lamique. It's just like, we'd like to have our side of the story, the show, no.

Those guys refuse to be Spotify exclusive. Oh, but there have been negotiations. Interesting. We're breaking news here. Speaking of news, let's get into some entertainment industry news before we get into some shows. I wanted to ask you, there's an article on a site called Protocol that just came out. I saw this from Lucas Shaw from Bloomberg's Twitter feed, but it was an article on protocol about this new, this survey that went out recently, apparently, and Netflix sent out this survey,

and it apparently also either on purpose or inadvertently went to some journalists. where it was just basically like big flicks just checking in, you know, having a couple cues for you. And it seemed to allude to or paint a picture that Netflix is working on something called N-plus. So Netflix Plus or N-plus. And you know me and Andy love a pluse. This is not N-plus-1, the millennial founded literary journal that was the sensation of the downtown

Although I bet the N-plus-one guys would be pretty psyched if Netflix came along. It was just like, hey, we've been. love the IP. We love what you guys are doing. We know Art of Fielding was a bestseller, but it would be even better as a 20-part maxi series. Um, so anyway, this survey was basically asking a lot of questions about what people might be interested in from this N-plus product. And what it essentially is, is it sounds like Netflix's effort to build, um, what do they call that? Like, is this like sidecar content? Like, what is the thing that it's like, I know that-com content is us, clown car content. I, sorry. There is a word for it, but is essentially

curatorial content around their shows. So whether it would be podcasts, whether it would be editorial stuff, whether it would be the ability for users or experts, quote unquote, to make playlists of episodes, possibly even getting to work with the music that is in some of these shows. It's essentially like a elevated user experience, I guess. And it's unclear whether this would be like something that lives inside the Netflix site or inside of the Netflix app or whether it would be a separate product or whatever. I imagine it would have. Netflix wants it all to be in one place, so I imagine that would be a case. But the reason I bring it up is because you and I have been having some conversations recently about the usability of Netflix and the changing face of that

front page and the changing face of that service. Yeah. I mean, first of all, I know this might not be kosher, but if I could just use this opportunity to just pitch you and Kaya on maybe a new reported out scripted ringer podcast Spotify exclusive. Like, I want to get into Big Plus. Like, who went long on that particular keystroke? Yeah, the Doge guys. But for real, like, or the marketing guru who is somehow quadruple dipping. No. Like, what, can you dip 10, 20 times with every major media company? I know. Here's what people want. They want what you have, but a little bit more. How do we communicate that? So I'm fascinated by that story. Second, I mean, this just, this, this makes a lot of sense. You know, I think that part of the

conversation we've been having about the small, the differences that might, the small differences that may turn out to be major swings or major advantages for these gargantuan, almost kaiju-like media companies battling with each other over the next decade, the small things may matter more than anything else. And when we talk about Disney Plus, like obviously the advantage is the collective lived experience of these characters and these products, both in our lifespans of seeing Star Wars movies or Disney cartoons, whatever we're talking about, but also the cruise ships and the amusement parks and all the things that were absolute catastrophes for Disney during COVID, but remain, let's all hope, big plus is going forward. So Netflix doesn't have that advantage. They're not going to be

able to get those legacy properties or IPs anymore. So they need to not just buy Mark Miller, the Scottish comic book writer's brain, basically. And they now publish his comics and immediately upstream any of his ideas into content. But so they have the Jupiter's Legacy comic book. They make a TV show that is apparently not very good, but I haven't seen it. But now they have to make the Jupiter's legacy amusement park or ride or toys. You know, they need to be pushing into those directions. if they want to be able to compete more directly with what Disney can offer. So having an expanded experience makes sense. I'll also say that it's a lot of fun.

I mean, from my own experience, you know, not just picking songs for Briar Patch, but we were able to do an original scripted podcast that ran along with the show. Yeah. Was a total thrill. Breyer Patch Plus, right? That's what that was called? Well, if only it had been called that, I believe it was called Zoo Town. Right.

which Zootown Plus maybe would have interested people. But it was terrific. We had a character from the show narrating it, and we had original content, whatever. But there's no real way to link it in people's minds other than tweeting it out and hoping people find it. The idea of building a larger online ecosystem for their content doesn't seem like it would cost them that much

and putting it all in one place. It just makes a lot of sense. So in that story you were referring to, there was a lot of like, well, we asked people lots of things in these TED talks with Mr. Sarandos. But, you know, this feels like something that has already been well on its way towards development. And they're just kind of like market testing the features. In the case of something like Jupiter's legacy, and I think if you could turn the clock back,

they would have tried to do something like this with Stranger Things, the Witcher, I'm sure that they have plenty of other things. I mean, maybe Umbrella Academy. They have plenty of- Shadow and Bone is their big new one? Shadow and Bone shows that probably could support essentially like a home for a fan community. I think it makes sense. You know, like, part of the reason why those shows are so popular, at least in terms of getting greenlit and put into production, if not always on the other side once they become

products, is I think that there is that element of the, you could have the Thrones effect where this could not only just be a show, but it could turn into an obsession for a lot of people and that there's a lot of ways to kind of amplify that fandom. You know, like I obviously, like you and I have kind of saw firsthand what, happened to Thrones when it went from becoming a very popular, if kind of cult book series, to a well-regarded but slow-growing TV phenomenon that turned into then the last big TV show we're probably ever going to have. And then kind of almost broke under the own weight of that because there was so much expectation and there's so much scholarship and there's so much backseat

driving going into that final season. And then the final season failed to deliver almost unanimously people agree on that. So I think it's kind of, it's kind of interesting. It is one of those things that I think maybe in five years we'll look back and be like, remember when Netflix was going to start like a blog about their shows? But like, you know, they have a lot of editorial products like kind of around the stuff anyway. That might not, it might not be the best way of succeeding in this field. It might not even be the end result. But I find it really interesting to think about because the old analogy of like, you know,

if you make razors, you sell one razor, but you make money from the razor blades, right? when you talk about companies like Disney, they make razors, razor blades, and the metal refinery, which they own. And for true global success in like multiple quadrants and multiple fields and mediums, you need to have all of it, not just be the place that airs it on TV. And the thing it's worth noting that separates Netflix from its major competitors, which are Disney, Apple, and Amazon is that Disney Apple and Amazon have hard products, not just software. Apple is a little bit like Netflix and then it's a tech company,

but if they buy a Tom Hanks movie, which they love to do, you go into an Apple store, Tom Hanks and Greyhound is on every screen in the store. So they can advertise it directly. They can make it look great on their screens and they can put it in front of as many people as possible. And you could also, at the end of the day, make the argument that they're still just selling phones and having free subscription to season two of Ted Lassow on your phone is just value add for the phone since they can't put a third camera into it anymore. So, but Amazon is in a situation that is totally unique because they can put on Lord of the Rings show,

but they can also sell DVDs of the Peter Jackson movies. They can sell copies of the Tolkien books and they can link all of it into their store. Disney has the most, you know, perfectly enclosed. I mean, Amazon's particularly wild because, like, you can also probably buy, like, landscape photos of, like, the sets of, of the Shire. You know what I mean? Like, you can get really. And travel guides to new.

Zealand and literally any product and the bootleg product, not bootlegs, but like the not official, officially sanctioned, you know, if you want to dress up like Legolas, but you don't want, you want to actually shell out for the Legolas costume, I'm sure you can buy like, fair, long-haired, blonde, elvish warrior costume. That's what I wore to the Lakers game last night. You looked great on Fan of Vision. What else newswise? Did you see Game of Thrones? No, Game of Thrones. Grey's Anatomy, you got renewed for a 19th season? 18th. You mean the real. biggest show on television? That's true. You know what? I should actually slap myself on the wrist for that

because I think I casually will refer to Thrones as like this only, the only phenomenon we've had. It's like actually Gray's still runs this shit. It's incredible. I mean, we've talked about it a few times, again, this is kind of our Metier at this point, but we don't actually watch the show anymore. At least I don't. I watch the clips. That's fine. I watch all the Meredith Beach clips. I'm always curious to see how people are looking from her past in heaven or wherever she is. But it is one of the more remarkable narrative success stories of this century, maybe in the history of TV. Christopher Reneoff, whose other show, the police, sorry, the fire show, station.

Station 19. I think that's where the 19 came from. Which is like manifesting how many seasons, Gray's is going to go probably. Or Station 19 picks up the Gray's story after season 18. That got renewed as well. And she's just kept it humming. Like people's, you know, the fans are satisfied. There's still enough drama and melodrama to keep it moving.

And it's just kind of fun, honestly, just as a spectator to see that, you know, the only thing that was holding this up, because ABC is like, yes, we need more of this. This is still our number one show. This is still something valuable around the world was, you know, getting Ellen Pompeo to agree to a raise from her. The salary she's had the last three years, which is $20 million a year. So she got an undisclosed raise. But also shoutouts to, is it Chandra Wilson? and James Pickens Jr., the only other two cast members? Yeah, yeah.

Like, when, like, when something insane happens, like the dude who plays Richard, the head of surgery or whatever he is at Seattle Grace, that actor, when he just buys the L.A. Chargers or something, don't be surprised. Like, the quietest, richest guy in Hollywood at this point. It's good for them, good for everybody, get paid. I did have a question for you, though, about this.

which was Kevin McKid, Scottish actor, yeah, has been on Grey's Anatomy now and also directing many episodes I just learned. He has been on Grey's Anatomy since 2011. Okay, and he's also under, he had signed a new deal for a potential season 18 previously, so that was never in doubt. And so Gray's anatomy could have been about Dr. Owen,

if Meredith had decided. Dr. Owen Hunt? Yeah, I stay familiar. Here's my thought exercise for you. maybe partly because the Halston trailer is still rattling around in my head. But not from the perspective of the 19-year-olds we were when train spotting came out. And by the way, side note, 25th anniversary of a very important movie for us this year, and hopefully we'll cover it in a number of ways.

But not from that perspective of that person who you and I were, because we were one person in 1996, but from the perspective of now, a gentleman, wearing an off-brand elf costume in his 40s. Screaming at Andre Drummond to get more rebounds. Whose career would you rather have? Kevin McKids or Ewan McGregor's? Now, this seems like an insane question to ask,

but I also think it's kind of a profounder. They were both in train spotting in case anybody is wondering why we were... In 1996, when train spotting came out, Ewan McGregor was the star. He had been in shallow grave with Danny Boyle previously, but was relatively unknown on a global stage, and he was incandescent, immediately a superstar,

and went on, you know, immediately cast in Star Wars and then has had a really interesting, if varied, 20-plus-year career. We're always checking for him, always rooting for him. Kevin McKidd was Tommy in train spotting, not the showiest role. And then, like, was in a father-ted Christmas special and doing some other kinds of work. And then he gets cast in, he was a working actor,

which is no small thing. But then when he is... I think he played a gladiator a couple of times. Was he in Rome? He was in Rome. Yes, he was in Rome. Good call. Very good call.

So, but in his mid to late 30s, he gets a call about coming on or auditioning for Gray's Anatomy, moves to L.A., and has just been consistently working on a hit show in L.A. for, you know, for 10 years now. Yeah, and one night in 2012, you saw me at Stout Burger in Studio City, and he was probably like, you know what, I like it here. I'm going to put down stakes. But, you know, because you think about Eum McGregor, who is all. Always, and I think we'll talk about him more as the year goes on, not just because of train spotting, but because of Obi-Wan or Halston.

He's always searching. He's always pushing. He's trying new things, which I really respect. But it's hard to remember in the last 20 years. I think you can count on one hand the number of Ewan McGregor rolls that have clicked. You know, or like, this uses him to the best of his ability. He's locked in, you know, and then there's just, and then there's the other stuff on the side. I don't know Kevin McKidd's person in the life particularly, but Eumner-Gregor had a rough patch a couple of years ago, came out of it now with Mary Elizabeth Winstead on his arm.

But there's, I feel, part of me, I'm like, I don't know, you mess around, you go to Rome, you wear a loincloth, and then you just get job security. Is that what you want, man? You're just in Seattle, grace. I think that that's what we're offering you here at the watch is just like a chance to just age gracefully, you know? You know, maybe I'm thinking about this because I thought I had that.

And then I saw Mallory Rubin tweet that she was being joined on Ringerverse by Chris Ryan today. I'm like, Chris is going to use, is Jupiter's legacy takes on rigourverse. I need a place to put my pure fandom, man. You know, this is the house of cynicism bill. Hey, no, two things that we're not cynical about, though, real quick. You didn't answer the question, by the way. Do I want to be Ewan McGregor or Kevin McKidd? Job security or the life of the open road hosting motorcycle travel shows. Definitely want to be Ewan McGregor. No disrespect to Kevin McKitt. Okay. Yeah. You know McGregor has to ride his bike

across the planet. That's cool. You've always been the Ewan McGregor of this podcast. Thanks. What do you want to talk about? Girls 5 ever, the fact that I love this Ice Age record. I feel like our last conversation was really me-centric, so I think it's time to let you have this. It's been a while since I've loved something as much as I love this Ice Age album, which may be predictable.

Ice Age is a punk rock band, or they had been for a long time. They've been working for about 10 years. I've been into them since their first record, which is either New Brigade or You're Nothing. I can't remember which one came first, because they came pretty quickly after one another. And over the years, they've been developing, like, different vibes to their sound, like, kind of like Nick Cave, country poet vibe, like Gothic country poet.

I'm plowing to the fields of love. Slightly more shoegazy, but still, like, very aggressive sound on Beyondless, which I love. And then this record came along, Seek Shelter. It's produced by a guy named Pete Kemper, who other people may know is Sonic Boom, who is in Spaceman 3. and it definitely scratches the primal scream spiritualized

junkie rock and roll itch that I have and it has two clunkers on on an album of like I think 11 songs and it's kind of like it's just all I want to listen to

I've been jamming this thing all weekend and I've noticed it's kind of getting like a little bit of a like this I say just made the leap kind of talk where I think because it's a little bit more accessible than previous records, it's sort of crossing over into everybody's favorite band right now is Ice Age,

which I think is awesome for those guys. But it's kind of funny because, like, I just remember these dudes just being like a hardcore band and just be like, yeah, this is, this band's fucking incredible. They were on the watch, right? Or was it how in perspective? Yeah, they came to the watch when they did a show at Gold Diggers, but I can't remember whether that was for,

beyondless or for plowing. But anyway, do you think that you had an outsized influence on their direction change? Did you pull them aside? I was like, I was like,

guys, you'll never make a hit this way. You'll never get on terrestrial radio this way. Like, do you also want to be courtside at the Lakers? I was like Tom Hanks

and that thing you do. Did you tell Kevin McKidd this too? Wait, are you secretly pulling the strings on all these people making really sound

career decisions? No, but if anybody is looking for something to listen to, I just thought I'd say I say it's just, predictably, but like, I can confirm that this record is fucking awesome.

Speaking of things that are awesome. Did you listen to it? I sent it to you and I was like, dude, and then you just didn't text me back and then you texted me about something else. You know, nobody wants to hear my opinion on it because you love it. Do you not like it?

Oh my God. It doesn't work for me. I tried. Damn, you got to get back in the gutters with me, man. You got to be get back. The gutters eating like terriaki skewers at a Lakers game? Greenwald and the Voidoids, Andy Greenwald and the blank generation.

That's what we used to fucking do. We used to just hang out on St. Marks, read Bodeer to each other. Come on. That is true. That is true. But we weren't, we weren't listening to, you know. Tell me about how you love this Tina Fey Show then. Get a day.

I feel like we're a little bit like Bill and Melinda Gates right now. Where within, dude, within the large... If you've been reading New York Post, don't be throwing that around. I haven't. Okay. All I read was that within the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, they each had their own little fiefdoms. Uh-huh. And you were giving your money to Ice Age slash malaria. And I'm over here focused more squarely on women's issues. Uh-huh. And thus, can I get out of this metaphor? You got it. Close by that.

Yeah. Okay. We're clear. Well, hold on. Opens tab, New York Post.com. So, guys, I don't know if you know about this, but there is a new show, executive produced by Tina Faye and Robert Carlock, her longtime running partner, created by Meredith Scardino. I will never forget Tracy Morgan, I think referring to Robert Carlock as Bobby Carlocky.

Yeah, those guys. Created by Meredith Scardino, who worked for many years for Colbert when he was on Comedy Central and then worked on Kimmy Schmidt. with Tina Faye. And I think a little bit on Mr. Mayer. She was on SNL too, yeah.

Great comedy writer created the show. And I just am curious about where we are as a culture, as a country, as TV viewers, because this whole project

just bubbled so weirdly under the radar, you know, and then we, and it drops the whole season on Peacock last week. And guys, it is so good.

Mm-hmm. It is just like getting fresh from, you know when you go to the donut shop, Chris? I'm going to go to some regular Joe stuff now that we've been up in the foundation clouds. You know what I mean? Just like helping the world. But now we've got to talk to Joe popcorn, common man. The difference between when you go to the donut shop and the donuts are fresh and when they've been sitting there, like these jokes are donuts fresh from the friar. They are such high quality jokes.

But also the whole concept. And again, maybe it's because the trend. trailer was a little bit underwhelming or it's peacock which a lot of people still don't have or maybe they don't know how to get. But the entire concept here is phenomenal. So the idea is that they were Girls 5Eva, is an absolutely ridiculously

named pop group. They explained the title in their hit song. Famous FiveEva. Yeah. Because Five Eva is one more than four and then they're going to stay three together. Anyway, they had a lot of really

problematic songs written by Swedish people in the late 90s, early 2000s, and then broke up, and then it's the present day, and they're all under varying circumstances of life, including one member who is no longer with us in life, and they are trying to get back together and make it again after a kind of a hit, like, mumble rapper samples their song. Yeah. And the cast, phenomenal, Sarah Borellis, singer and Broadway composer in her own right is the star, along with Renee Elise Goldsbury, who is Angelica Schuyler and Hamilton, who is super funny. As Wiki, right?

As Wiki, sort of the, yeah, more the diva of the group. Bizzy Phillips is part of the group, as is the legendary comedy writer Paula Pell, who is, if you're on the fence at all about the show, understand that all of the women in the group are 40, and they were all like 18 to 20. during the heyday of the group. Paula Pell is turning 60 this year and is meant to be the same age as them. It is just so raunchy and insanely funny

and the outrageousness of the bit, they commit to it so hard. I just, I love the show. And the song parodies are also phenomenal. With this and mayor, and then, like, thinking back to 30 Rock, I was not the biggest Kimmy Schmidt fan, but, like, just take those four things.

I do think that Tina Fey, Tina Fey industry, are not specifically her, but like this is my platonic ideal for a sitcom. Yeah. It is like high, high volume, high level joke writing. It is like with these delightful performances and it basically feels like a screwball comedy from from the 40s in terms of like the like pace and execution of the dialogue. It is just so fucking funny. This is kind of why Andy and I don't often talk about sitcoms on the shows because I don't

really, if they work, there's very, little to be said about them. You know, like I, it's really much easier to talk about something like Dave or something like that because it's like it has some dramatic elements or it has like a narrative through line or something like that. There's like really great, well done late 90s, early 2000s, TRL era nostalgia stuff happening here. And like, yeah, I think that they just perfectly cast this thing. I mean, Renee Lee Scholesberry is just like, just completely going for it. As is busy Phillips. Like they have like these really, really extremes. And then they have Paula Pell and Sarah Borellas kind of doing more sort of like asides and slightly more straight stuff.

So it's just really funny. If you haven't got a chance to check it out, it's like a reasonable loan to get Peacock. Also, just a couple other things to speak for it. Low key in the margins, there are all these jokes about other TV shows. Like there's an incredible runner about the Americans early in the first season, just in the background that you don't even need to know, but it's really worth getting. And also, I just love, and I feel like we should give Meredith Scardino a lot of credit for this. the show commits equally to just absolutely bespoke, exquisite jokes that I truly feel, like if you haven't eaten a bagel from bagel hole at, you know, at Prospect Park on a blustery September

day, like you're not even going to care about the joke. There's a whole thing about New York Lonely Boys in episode three with a song that is so outrageous and it culminates in a cameo that I don't even know if it would make sense to anyone that hasn't seen this person and Tina Faye together on Fire Island. but if you have, boy, you're going to love it. But also, there's an entire season-long runner about a piano that is basically invisible that just, it's just physical humor that's so dumb. It's great.

Birds flying into the piano, the guy who's like, I have cyclist arms, so I can't lift this. It's great. I love that the show exists. I'm happy that Peacock has what, you know, there are many ways to get to a hit these days. And if you're a new streaming service, you'll take any of them. And I think having the Twitter cognoscenti get in line for something is as good as anything else. You can watch it in a weekend or you can make it stretch out. It's like it's right there.

So they drop the whole season. Check it out on Peacock. We'll take a quick break. And when we come back, we'll talk about Mera. The playoffs are here. And you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner.

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So whether it's buying tickets to the game or grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash. Rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo, be a two-percenter. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms apply. All right, Andy, we're back. Did you see the S&L? Marisket? I sure did. And also, respect to our listeners, because the only reason I knew about it is because I woke up Sunday morning to just reams of Menchies. Yeah. About it. Yeah, it was very funny. It was very funny. I thought, I love it. I love it. it when SNL wants to do one thing so badly, it has to pretend that it's a big thing.

When they were like, the type of show that, and they're just like, you're just doing mayor of Easttown. That's cool. Exactly. Yeah. It was also, I was like, it gets to like a minute and a half and I'm like, that was good. And then I looked at it, I was like, this is two more minutes long. But it was, they really sold a bit. Bowen Yang was really funny. Also, the, they're not wrong when they had the review from the local paper being like, boy, they sure get the voices right. And all the foods and places are real. Like, that is truly Philadelphia, that for us, I'm like,

they said tasty cakes? Like, in this episode, Mayor is eating classic blue bag hers potato chips, and I was just like, take me. Like, this show is everything to me. It's just about being seen. It's just about recognition. So this episode's called Porcissifus. It is the fourth episode, so we were rounding a second here, the seven episode run for the show.

And I thought it was a really, I mean, first of all, like, I guess we could just do this at the top. She's so fucking good. She's so ridiculous. And there's a hundred reasons why in this episode. But the number one I would tell you is when an opening scene or whatever, when she's hiding from her family in bed.

And then she waits for them all to leave and then kind of sticks her nose out of her door and walks out. And she's wearing like leggings and a t-shirt. And she has thought about this character so long. clearly and so thoroughly that Kate Winslet knows how mayor stands in this specific situation and like just like her posture and the way she actually I think at one point kind of has her hand

sort of on her hip where her gun would be like where her police belt would be I'm sure it was just a gesture but this sort of now she has this shadow of who she is no longer a detective she has no she loses her sense of identity and I just thought you know this was an episode that I thought had like a lot of extremes. It had very broad comedy. I thought it indulged in probably the most true detectivey kind of noir elements of that this show has kind of delved into so far since maybe the first episode when at the end of the first episode.

And it also has, I think what some people might call a slightly bizarre B plot at this point with Chavon. You know, like not necessarily that I don't like it because I fucking love it. but it is interesting that Chavon and her girlfriend have gotten on more screen time than Guy Pearce you know, like, and I think that that makes sense in so much as if you shoot the show through Merr's perspective

and it's like, who are the people closest to her? That would make, that would make sense. It is interesting to me that Guy Pearce has been in three scenes in four episodes, pretty much. And I do worry, not worry, like, personally, but like, it would stand to reason that he must have a bigger role to play going forward,

which I don't know if that bodes well for Richard in his writing career and for the women of Eastown. Yeah, I don't want to play couch quarterback or couch cop here, or I guess couch starting point guard on a high school women's basketball team. But I did notice the one Richard scene in this episode where they're walking on campus, I'm no expert, I could be wrong, but it did appear to be a scene that was shot in an entirely different season.

which made me think that that was one of the pickups or some of the footage they had to be, some of the scenes that they had to do when they resumed after the COVID break. Yeah. Because it, foliage alone, it was a different season. So I don't know if that has anything to do with his,

how he's been deployed on the show. So far, I'm not complaining about it. I do want to address your point about the Chauvin plot. But before that, I want to say that generally, I am not a fan of, um, themed episodes that are tied to specific dates in the calendar. That said, I thought this special Mother's Day episode,

of Merivis Town was very powerful. Salute to all the moms out there. Salute to all the hardworking moms out there. It's rough. I mean, the level of suffering that all of these women are enduring is just, it's unimaginable, and it's relentless,

and none of it would work if the performances weren't what they are, but also if the, if the creative process wasn't so thoughtful and sensitive and aware that when you see someone suffering in a myriad ways and you say, how could they be doing it? Well, there's often a reason why they can be doing it. And in an imperfect, very imperfect world, it is often community or family. And so the connections between Don and Beth and how they are there for you.

each other. And Beth does not seem like someone who has the free time to babysit. You know, yet she does for her friend Don, you know, and similarly, maybe it'll come back to Honest in different ways, but, you know, Don who has had yet another unimaginably horrific evening in what has been a multi-year stretch of them, no doubt, holds back the peace about Beth's brother to spare her friend, you know. And I just... Kudos to that. I will say on a personal note, while I was thrilled to welcome my own wife back into the mayor family last week, basically predicated on the deal that the Aaron's baby would not be left

unattended in screaming again as he was in the pilot, finishing off what had been otherwise a very successful Mother's Day in our household with the shot of not just the baby screaming, but with the momentary implication that the teenage not his father would smother the baby with his hospital pillow. That was a bumpy that was a bumpy couple seconds in the household.

I was like they probably, I did not think that they would go through with that. I thought first, but I do think that that was a choice. That was a choice. You know what I mean? Like to basically like push people and push the button like that is pretty extreme. But maybe that's just where this kid is. You know what I mean? Like, it's just what he's been through between having Aaron

Aaron's murder, his own shooting, finding out he's not the father of his own child. Like, he is obviously in a pretty extreme place. I don't know where to start. So I guess one thing I do want to talk about is the way the way in which this, and I know I brought up a couple of topics. Is there something you want to hit first? Yeah, well, I think we should, I should circle back to what you're saying about why we're spending time on Chavon. And I think that I was thinking about it too. And I was thinking about it in terms of the Dawn and Beth's subplot and Beth's brother, all of that. What I'm experiencing, and please let me know if there are other examples that you think run counter to what I'm about to say, I'm sure there are some, but none of them are coming

to mind. The thing that I'm finding most compelling about marriage just as a storytelling exercise is that it seems to be choosing a third path when it comes to serialized traumas. In my experience, and again, please poke holes in this. I'm sure there are many, a limited event series based on a crime, almost by definition, has to stay laser focused on the crime. It has to build the Rokes Gallery in the community, in the sense of place, et cetera, et cetera. But more often than not, a lot of that stuff is really there just to service the plot.

And to use the analogy we've been using week after week, the original British Broadchurch had a really cool sense of place in the cliffs of Dover and it was very striking. but we became very accustomed to midway through this season that each character that was part of the tapestry was really just being trotted up for their turn in the barrel, right, as the potential suspect, and then push back down again and then we move on. The thing that I love most about TV, more generally,

is the world building and the sense of community and the relationships between secondary and tertiary characters and how big and deep a world can be when given the chance with some thoughtful storytelling, but also time. mayor is doing both concurrently in a way that I think is really technically dazzling if subtle they're spending all this time with characters that hopefully i mean hopefully chavon isn't secretly the murderer hopefully we're just learning about a young woman who is holding this

broken family together like glue but trying to find her own way in the world i would prefer that i also am just thrilled that there can be an episode where mayor is off the case comes back on the case advances the case. There's a whole new case and we get a return visit to the Habford College radio station and we get all that great time with Gene Smart and we see Beth's house and her family dynamic and all of the extra things to it. So it feels confusing because it's not what I expected out of a show like this. Yeah. Even just to just to add a little more to it, when we were talking about the undoing, do you remember in the early going and talking about the undoing, we were kind of excited, like, oh, well, Lily Raib is here, so I wonder what

she's about. Yeah, I think we thought that show might be a little bit more like a scathing look at high society in New York City before it got subsumed by, did Hugh Grant do it or not. Or just a look at it. Yeah. It's a society. That wasn't what that show was. It's not necessarily a fair critique to just grab it and take a stray shot at it.

But I think I had that desire to see more of what was going on around it before we focused. Mayor is giving us that, and it's unfamiliar. I think I'm very grateful for it. Well, in the undoing, something happens in the beginning of that series that changes every single character for good in the show. And it changes how they interact with each other. One thing that you can see about Mare is that something and some things have happened. But it takes longer for things to change, you know? And, you know, you can ask why that is and why people are able to maintain, like,

kind of normative relationships like Lori and Mare, like, Lori is just like, you're not going to push me away. and like they just are able to maintain him. There doesn't seem to be a huge amount of fallout from the sort of false accusation that Frank is the father of that baby. Like he hasn't really turned up since he left the police station. But I think when you take a step back

from the Chavon stuff from this week, which I think might have felt, I think the reason why I brought it up in the way I did was because I think that the contrast between the Chavon stuff and this tracking the killer, mind hunter style stuff that happened with the most recent victim.

the reveal at the end that Katie's still alive and that they're in this, like, you know, abandoned tavern, it's a pretty sharp juxtaposition. It's a tonal juggling act. And as is the, the sort of hiding the ice cream and the garden vegetables, the mixed vegetables bag. And that's sort of, the kind of physical comedy of that whole Becca sequence, you know, of that whole thing. Now, I was trying to figure out, like, why are they doing this? Why are they doing this? And I do think that, you know, when you look at Chavon and Anne and Becca and that triangle,

and then you kind of compare it to the plot line of Dawn and Bethy throughout the episode. There's the point where Anne is kind of like, essentially like, why can't you just leave? Like, why are you staying? You know what I mean? Are you worried that it's going to fall apart if you leave? And it seems like, I think

Chavon says something to the extent of like it already has, you know? And Anne is obviously that that sort of Bruce Springsteen song Come to Life where it's just like we're going to get out of here. Like we're going to, maybe there is a world outside of East Town and I don't have to go to Kutztown

or I don't have to go to somewhere local and come back on the weekends or something. And obviously, even though it's played for comedic effect with like Gene Smart getting knocked over and everything, I think that the idea of like her grandmother being in the hospital and her mom having to take her to the hospital and she needs Chavon to, you know,

watch Drew and move the car and do all this stuff is you just get sucked into life. And at a certain point, what you want doesn't really matter that much. You know what I mean? And it's like Dawn obviously is looking for her daughter, but at the same time is not going to just absolutely detonate Beth's life that night by saying your brother who you're already losing your marriage over

was also running a scam to convince me that my daughter was still alive. Yeah. I mean, that's the cleverness of the structure of the show that today's Chavon and Becca are tomorrow's Dawn and Beth. Right. You get trapped in it, you get caught in it. But I think enormous kudos to Brad Inglesby and the rest of the creative team. They cast Becca so well. Madeline Weinstein is the actress.

And they give her just that little moment to break down in front of Gene Smart in front of her girlfriend's grandmother. Yeah. about how her life is terrible and she's the only good thing in it and she's smarts like, yes, she's a good person, you know,

but she's also seen these cycles again and again and again. Speaking of cycles, I mean, when they ask, when they ask Chimana, she's met somebody else, she says no.

You know, like kind of like her mom, you know, just kind of fudging it a little bit here and there. Okay, when's like teenage girls are fucking sneaky.

Yeah, but they've, they've managed to really, I guess my major question to you is how you feel about, episode four, they shake off like a couple of the parameters of the storytelling.

So we get a flashback. We had had sort of like more impressionistic flashbacks of Kevin, but we get a full Kevin Carey and Mayer moment that explains just how dark things had gotten between them. And it kind of goes towards

a little bit of Mayer's obviously dislike of Carrie. And then there's also some breaking of POV. Now, for the most part, I think that the first few episodes had either been from Chavon Mayer's or maybe Zabel's perspective. Like there may have been scenes without one of the three of them,

but I don't think there were many. There was a couple of lorry scenes. But for the most part, they were through there. And then we actually, like, in episode four, jump into Deacon Mark's apartment. You know, and we start to move around a little bit and we have flashback. So curious what your thoughts were on,

changing up the, like, house style a little bit. Well, the big jarring one was suddenly we're with the killer. Either the killer or the kidnapper. And that was a little bit clumsy for me because it was such a POV jump, but also we had just been talking about Katie, who we hadn't seen. So we saw a young woman, and I assumed that was Katie. Right. And I don't know. And I also don't know what we're doing, and that's fine.

We don't need to know. But what exactly we're doing with the whodunit aspect anymore? Are we hiding the ball intentionally and being, you know, not just trying to hide the ball, but kind of smear the suspicion around? to keep it a big mystery because the physicality of the person in the van was very father mark. Almost to the point where I assumed that's who it was when we first saw the figure before they cut away from the face. And again, that could be intentional that they're revealing it, intentional that they want me to think that, unclear. But I did bump on that to answer your question. That said, I remain a fan because I think that the balancing act that's how,

happening here of making us care more about the day-to-day struggles of these characters that we are growing to become very fond of, almost a little bit more than solving the crime. I think it's just doing, it's doing such good for the long-term success of this show and of this whole project. You mentioned the Carrie thing, like that short scene with her in the apartment that she turned into a home for her and Drew and pizza is heartbreaking. Yeah. And so well considered and so well played, it's really well done. Now, the turn at the end that we are not necessarily watching a murder who done it,

but there may be a murder that may lead us to a missing girls scenario, I'm in. I'm in on the complication. I'm in on the surprise. And I'm also in because, and I'll say it again, I don't know if the long-term goal here is, is this, we'll know in a couple weeks. Is the long-term goal here? Will there be more of this series? Will it be like Idris Elba returning to Luther

or Helen Mirren returning to prime suspect? I mean, Kim Winslet said that she would like to play mayor again. I don't know. I'm not, like, we're not breaking news. Like, she said it on our show. If someone says that, that means they're going to, like, most likely, unless this series has a definitive ending for, you know, for her. Well, for me, it's not necessarily about solving the case.

It's just about, and this was always really for me, like, one of the big roadblocks, I think, to like the idea of, you know, there was some talk about True Detective Season 4 would somehow tie together some of the other seasons and bring McConaughey back

and Harrelson back. I want, I don't think that her personality arc is going to, like, once she gets to the end of this season, I don't really want to start again with her somehow being, uh, shattered again.

You know what I mean? Like, it's not that I need her to become full or become whole when she gets to the end of this season of TV. but the idea of artificially dialing back her character, like she's Jack Bauer, to, to like,

and setting her off on another course like that, I would be more than thrilled to have another mayor of East Town season. If it's mayor living with Richard in, like, Hudson Valley and like, taking care, like running a general store, being a detective somewhere else, like,

for sure. But like this specific story feels like it's engineered to end. Yeah. And I think that, not just that. I think that hopefully we'll get a chance. to talk to him about this directly. But I'm increasingly getting the sense

that what motivated Brad Inglesby to write this show was to write about why the community and communities that he came from are the way they are. Why do they feel so incestuous? Why are people all up on top of each other and unhappy? What has the opioid crisis done specifically to this place?

And then, you know, as is often the case, the best way into a very wide-ranging societal story is a detective story and laid atop of it. And so the fact that it continues to pay attention to the agony of Beth's relationship with her brother and his health and well-being, I just feel like I'm in good hands. And so everything that comes at me in an episode like this, which was busy, I mean, it was all over the place. As we're talking about it, I'm just suddenly remembering little flashes and scenes. And we haven't even talked about Aaron's friend's interrogation and her mom wearing a totally insanely inappropriate top that revealed her.

Her arms while being interviewed by the cops or Zabel living with his mom and why does he drink yingling light with dinner? Like that guy does not need a light beer. You know what I mean? That guy needs a scarf or something to cover his neck because it's driving me crazy. Let me just say that. I know. But I'm just enjoying the full experience. I don't feel like this is a show that necessarily needs to keep its eye and thus our eyes on one particular ball. Although, again, the confidence with which it's being unfurled suggests that they know exactly where that ball is and where it's headed. Do you have any feelings on what that pendant means that you found? No, and I feel like on some level I'm failing as a pop cultural podcaster because I don't have three instant theories

for every clue. I'm just like, neat. No, it's okay. I'll do it on Ring orverse. I set myself up for that. I also just wanted to mention I really like the therapy scene. Yeah, therapy scene was great. Let the healing begin. Yeah. This is, sometimes it's fun

when you see talented people on both sides of the camera pick up and they're like, oh, this old thing? Yeah, we dust it off and see if we can play it. Like, we have seen many examples of hard-bitten cops

and our professionals who don't want to be in mandated therapy. I mean, that is a whole genre unto itself. But sometimes the hits are hits for a reason. Let's play it and see how I am concerned. She's not doing much of a job keeping her off the books police work a secret. That was my next thing. Yes.

Nor does it seem to be a secret from the town who all are like, oh, mayor had to break down. But like, eventually this chief needs to be like, so I hear you're just like interrogating witnesses. But also, Detective Zabel, you seem to be working with your partner, Detective Mershean, to solve this case. What about Houser? I want to talk about Houser. Like, again, the best shows do the smallest thing. is right. I don't know where they found that guy, but they just put him behind the desk with that face. It's great. It's like, you got any creamer? I love it. We can wrap it up there. Andy is off for the rest of the week. So Thursday I'll be doing, or Friday, I'll be doing a Top Chef with a special

guest. Like I said, we'll be back next week with usual shows, and we're going to try and get that Bureau season three and four to use. So next Wednesday is the hope. Did I just say, the hope? It's the hope. Yeah. Until then, we are, as you always produced by Kai-McMont. Owen, and we will talk to you later this week. Have a great week for instance. We're off to a good start.