The Watch - New Seasons of ‘House of the Dragon’ and ‘Rings of Power,’ and the State of Franchise TV. Plus, ‘Big Cigar’ and Adrien Brody on ‘Winning Time’ and ‘Succession.’

Episode Date: May 16, 2024

Chris and Andy discuss standing ovation culture at the Cannes Film Festival (01:29), and Bob Iger’s admission that he tried to tell too many stories at the start of streaming (05:47). They talk about the many prequels being announced, starting with ‘Dune: Prophecy’ (12:31), as well as the companies’ commitment to getting a return on investment for their IP. They then get into the trailer for Season 2 of ‘The Rings of Power’ and ‘House of Dragon’ (17:25), and the renewal of ‘3 Body Problem’ (29:53) and ‘Mr. and Mrs. Smith’ (45:26),. They also express their excitement over new stories being told that aren’t ancillary projects. Later, they note their disappointment in the safe choices made in ‘Big Cigar’ (49:26). Finally, they interview Adrien Brody on his roles in ‘Winning Time’ and ‘Succession’ (58:57). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Adrien Brody Producers: Kaya McMullen and Olivia Crerie Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about trim Faya. Tap this ad to look at Learn more about Tramfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interests that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line.

Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio coming off a seven-minute standing ovation.

It's Andy Greenwood! I'm so glad you brought that up. That's all I want to talk about today. We have too much to talk about because we've got all this news coming out at Upfronts. We've got Top Chef. We've got a little preview of Big Cigar and Outer Range Season 2. And then, Andy, we are joined by the Layer King himself, Adrian Brody. We're all just subjects, layer subjects.

Adrian Brody's on the show today, and gosh, we have like a full slate, but please talk about the Cannes Film Festival. I just am genuinely serious about this because as many people who pay attention to culture know that the real barometer of success coming out of Cannes, at least in the short term, winning the media, winning the online conversation is how long your standing ovation was. since Can began this week, we've heard that Furiosa got a seven minute standing ovation. We then today learned that Andrea Arnold, I feel like a watch favorite. Right?

We love fish tank. You're so funny, man. What? You like season two of Big Little Lies probably. I love Andrew Arnold, but you're just like... Why not? Your commitment to Art Howl, you are so becoming your dad

where you're just like, I went down to the Ritz and saw the new Andrea Arnold. I want to introduce the ritz at the bors. It's the other writs. That's only for the Philly head. My dad wouldn't go out of his way to see a movie by a woman. What are you talking about? I'm iterating.

Anyway, her movie Bird got a seven-minute standing ovation, which is starting to feel suspicious. So my question for you is, how long a standing ovation do you think you could get? For what? Okay. For what? Let's talk about it.

Like, I mean, for saving someone from drowning? Doing the Heimlich maneuver? on jury president Greta Gerwig. No, like... Oh, like, I mean, half an hour. What if you're... What's it called? Piler Tarker.

You know, the thing you're doing... Barker tiles, yeah. What if you screen that? I don't know. I mean, like, I think that the seven-minute thing is starting to become a little suss. I was actually...

Seven minutes is a long time. At a play that I was at in London recently. Humble brag. The ovation afterwards felt very, like, mechanical. Like, it was like, we have to clap. until they come and do their victory lap. Like to do a second bow?

Yes, they did a second bow. Yes, okay, well, let's talk about it. Let's talk about participation trophy culture because when I was growing up, I felt like the standing ovation was really special. Yeah. It wasn't for everything, but now you go see a show on Broadway or whatever, everybody leaps to their feet as soon as it's over.

And I think part of that... Unless they're seeing the Harry Potter play and then they're like, my legs don't work anymore. I'm exhausted. it. But I do think part of that is I spent, what, $400 on this ticket. So I'm going to get, I'm goddamn well going to think this is magical experience. No Harry Potter. I just saw Olivier do it. I mean, right? Yeah. I think that I would start to get uncomfortable, not just because my leg's are getting tired. What I want to see is like what happens when somebody

gets like a four minute standing ovation. And if they're just like, okay, motherfuckers, I see you. That's what I mean. It's like you could, that was it. Yeah. That's enough. Yeah. Also, Because the other thing about Furiosa, which I'm eager to see and seems like it went over well. Did you see Fury Road? How dare you. Did you watch it on a plane? I don't have to answer this. Okay.

No. Television. But, you know, I have an okay TV. The TVs are great now. Not mine back then, but we're getting better. The main news story was watch friend, Ania Taylor Joy. Is she a watch friend? She went on the, she's been on our podcast.

When? After Queen's Gambit. Oh yeah, that's right. Watch friend, Ania Taylor's? Is she your Lewis Pullman? Do you not remember? No, I blank that out. It was peak COVID, we can get anyone.

She was in a hotel room filming the Northman, and she was really cool. That's awesome. Yeah, we have A-listers. I was on that pod? Yes. Wow. Yeah. Wow, that's incredible stuff, man.

You were wearing three masks at the time. You know, if you detect like a little bit of memory loss on my part, I think Bob Iger might have the reason why. Are you pivoting? I am segueing. I just wanted to say the Andy Taylor Joy being like, Like, my soul has been hollowed out and I've never been lonelier than I was making this movie. And then her face while they're applauding for seven minutes, that was my Oscar reel.

I loved that. Yeah, she laughed it up. She was excited. I like the fact that we've now gotten to the point where I do this segue. And you're like, I like that segue. But I'm going to talk for a few more seconds. Do you think you can leave this in, by the way? Where are we going with this, like, this new energy that we have?

Do you think it's just that like naturally after, when we enter into the third decade of doing the show, we'll come with our prepared remarks and we'll deliver them. That's right. I mean that's all right. Okay, so Bob Iger probably made the biggest headline of the upfront week. So as for people who don't know, a lot of the networks and streamers were in New York this week,

doing their presentations of the rest of the year for advertisers and for the larger media business so that they can say, oh my gosh, looks like Netflix is doing this, and Disney's doing that, and Amazon is doing this. Iger hasn't done this in a minute. And Iger has not done this since the 90s. When he was president of ABC. Yes, he has not been the guy on the lot showing you the Cadillac since like Bill Clinton era.

Wow. And Bob Iger came out and maybe it was time for him to do so because obviously Disney's had this tumultuous last few years with the Cheapack back. Iger to Cheapac back to Iger. The challenge to the in the board, which I know you were really pulling for Nelson Peltz in that situation. And I'm sorry if you've lost any money. Not financially, but politically. politically. And so Iger came out and he basically came out and said, we fucked up. He basically, Iger, this is from the Hollywood Reporter. Disney CEO, Bob Iger gave him me a culpah for big losses incurred while launching streaming platforms like Disney Plus during an investor conference appearance on Wednesday.

Quote, as we got into the streaming business in a very, very aggressive way, we tried to tell too many stories. Basically, we invested too much way ahead of possible returns. And it's what led to streaming. ending up as a $4 billion loss. So this is like something that I thought the candor was interesting. I also think that if you read further into the article, there's a lot more, he like runs Cheapac over with the bus, and then you hear, beep, beep, beep, as he backs the bus up over Cheapac. But ultimately, like he's saying, like, this is unsustainable.

We can't, and we can't impose anything. equality control at working at this volume or at the volume that we were at when it was like four Marvel shows, four Marvel movies, four, you know, Star Wars things. And we need to tighten up and we need to make great things. This is essentially his big takeaway. And it was, I noted with interest, I can't remember, I think it was Aubrey Plaza, who was at Cannes with with Megalopis. She was talking about Agatha or something. Oh, right. Forgive me if I'm wrong. But it's essentially like they're already seeding the idea that Agatha looks like a $100 million. budget movie. They've like really done a ton of work. Which by the way is meaningless because

a hundred million dollar movies look like dog shit. Yes, I take your point. But basically this idea I think I wonder if we'll start to hear more and more like we spared no expense in making this witch show look amazing. Well, a couple things. I do feel some empathy for Bob Eiger because the idea of doing too much work with, you know, and you're not being able to maintain quality is kind of what I felt about stick to landing. You know what I mean? Like I needed to, I did 10. and I fell a little taxed. So I wanted to like focus more. What do you think dropped off?

The watcher stick the landing? I don't think I need to answer. I think the listeners know. Okay. I'm glad you don't. The incredible, I mean, you make the joke about like Iger being on the lot, but the guy is the consummate salesman. And it is incredible to do what he's doing,

which is basically tell everyone to go all in on streaming, retire with multiple bouquets of flowers, and then come back and take the stage dressed in the hot. dog costume like Tim Robinson being like, look, mistakes were made. It's incredible. He's still golden because he gets to say that that was a mistake when A, it was a mistake because the quality was not there. But B, it was a completely different moment in America.

I don't mean like culturally or socially. I just mean when we've repeated this multiple times that like the whole way these businesses were structured was flood the zone to boost investor confidence. spend your way towards shareholder value. Yes. Since that decision was made, it's not just that the Star Wars shows weren't good or that Marvel shows were too digressive or confusing. It's that now you'd have to show profit again.

Yeah. And that was never the way towards that. So he can come in and act like mistakes were made and that he can correct them. But this was the course that he and his board laid out. And now he gets to be the guy. And I think he actually, you know, it's savvy for, I mean, I'm sure. The whole thing is savvy. These things are timed in a very specific way.

And I think it's quite savvy that he gets to say this right before Deadpool and Wolverine come out. Totally. Because regardless of whether Deadpool and Wolverine restarts the Marvel universe or shows the way forward or brings on a new era of R-rated balls to the wall kind of like storytelling by Marvel, which I don't necessarily think it will. But it's going to be a big hit. Yeah. And he gets to be like, see, we really like dialed this one in. And that's what we're doing going forward. And then Ackleite comes in June.

And then he has a pretty much, like, he's really kind of like they've taken their foot off the gas. Now, that doesn't mean that they also announced that they were launching this thing called a venue, which is the sports Hulu product between Warner, Disney, and Fox. There was a ton of announcements coming out of the sports space this week. So they're still investing a lot. Optics matter. Yeah. And they're experts at it.

And when people were talking about how Eiger should run for president, he was taking it seriously. it wasn't necessarily because he can manage the bottom line of the parks department. It was because of how he markets the entire thing. It is very in keeping with the Disney brand to the degree that it is still a valuable brand, which I think it is, to say, just make good things, make magical things. It is really, really smart business operating procedure to have an Agatha show, which in the time that it's been in pre-production, in production, and now I believe just on the shelf, has gone through,

three to five title changes. It is now called Agatha all along. And it has gone from being greenlit when Wanda Vision was a huge success, a critical darling, an Emmy nominee, and a harbinger of all the great things and they thought that they were going to need to have never be a moment where there was an MCU product on there.

Then it goes into production. And then while it's in production and in the early stages of post-production, it's suddenly an albatross because all the Marvel shows on TV aren't very good. They all feel redundant. They all feel unnecessary.

And it starts to be like an echo situation. And I don't mean disrespect to Catherine Hahn or maybe the creative team. Maybe it's good. None of that matters in the version of the conversation we're having right now. It's just that the optics of it are poor. And it seems like a troubled project. They hold it. They retool it.

They change the title again. Maybe they put more money into the CGI budget. And now they're holding it as if, aha, now this show that has gone through all of these permutations of the corporate strategy is the perfect avatar of what we're doing next. Dare I say I have a segue for this, too? Could you really do it? Because Warner Brothers has its same version of this, which is Dune Prophecy. Yes.

And the Dune Prophecy trailer came out this week. This is a prequel series to the Dune movies about the, I don't know, the rise of the Benny Jesuit from what I understand. It stars Emily Watson, Olivia Williams, and Mark Strong. This is a production that, by all accounts, troubled, I don't know, but like has gone through very many iterations, was shooting in Bulgaria or Romania or whatever. Hungary. It seemed like it was, those are different places. Currently, although the way NATO's going.

Let's circle back. And it's been another show that I think it's like they started talking about this when the first Dune came out, right? Like when the first Deney Villeneuve Dune movie came out, they were like, and we're going to make Sisterhood of Dune, which is about the Benny Jezzar. And he's going to have a hand in it. And the guy who directed Chernobyl.

Yohann Rank was going to direct it. Yeah, right. He was announced. Different cast completely. Shirley Henderson, I think, was involved. Like, different showrunner, Diane Damu Johnson was the developer. She wrote the scripts. She was replaced before they went into production.

Again, in this siloed conversation where we are not talking about the quality of the show, we have not seen it. It would be really awesome if it was good. The trailer seems pretty sick. Emily Watson's a good actress and she seems cool in this show. Talking about this as exactly what you said, as basically a bauble that's been kicked around by different. regimes with different goals and aims. I mean, I don't know. I wish we could say that we are past this sort of thinking in the industry, but I doubt

that we are. But basically, it was birthed from an idea of this complete corporate synergy from movie screens such as they are to TV screens to streaming, where every project must be announced with ancillary projects that support the larger goal to flood the streams of IP and provide all of this stuff. The idea wasn't enough that Denis Villeneuve was going to make a Dune movie. is that we are going to have tons of Dune content being birthed from this same

pure bloodline of I don't know I'm lost in the saucier because I don't really know the 10,000 years of the Atreides history but the I can speak from like stuff that's been reported and stuff that I know from behind the scenes that like the imperative

to make this show outweighed almost anything else. It outweighed creative vision for the show. It outweighed cast. It outweighed production demands or expectations. This show was going to happen for the larger good of the company. Yeah. Rarely does good art come from that, but it might.

I am also just purely interested as someone who really is a fan of the movies. I'm very curious what the general audience appetite is for more spice. Like, do they like the spectacle of Timothy Shalamey and Zendaya in these incredibly well-made blockbuster movies, or are they just like, let me find out what's happening 10,000 years before? That's a really good question. and I wonder whether or not when the first film came out

and obviously also was at the gosh, was that the tail end of COVID? Like, Dune went straight to streaming. Straight to streaming, right. So it was a muted release for it. And it was the pre-Discovery Warner Brothers when it was the Jason Clare, like...

Oh, everything goes to streaming, right? I think it's a different Dune world than now that it is, that was then when this was first announced. In Iraqis? Well, I think it's just a place where people have had a couple of years to live with the first one. Second ones are probably the biggest movie of the year so far. Coming to streaming this month.

And it's coming to streaming this month. And I feel like anecdotally over the course of that period of time, in the same way that Thrones had this run to, and we're going to get to some Thrones content in a second, people have now become like Dune fans in a bigger way. I feel like I've read more like what will Dune 3 be. and like what, like, there's just a lot more awareness and I think people have read the books

and I think people have read the explainers and people have gone on Dunapedia and, like, gotten deeper into this. So I wonder whether or not the ground is primed a little bit more for something like this. But you're right. I mean, like, you can't just say, I think the major takeaway I've had

from all of the news that came out this week was like a lot of these companies spent a ton of money on IP, right? Like about whether it was developing relationships with people like Mattel or companies like Mattel or buying the Dune franchise or the Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones. And they're not going to leave well enough alone.

They need to get their money back somehow and come hell or high water, they're going to have like a Dune show on there. It's not getting the money back. It's almost like they have to put their money to work. Yeah, exactly. Like they have to at least put it back in the marketplace and prove to their bosses that they are trying to extract value

from the stuff that they were. burdened with, frankly, by previous regimes. Can I do a segue? I think it's the same conversation. And you mentioned, but Lord of the Rings thing, because Prime, Amazon Prime Video debuted their trailer for season two. Yeah, they had a huge upfront

with a lot of, like, pretty significant starwadage. Your Gal Reese was there, right? Because they're going to do a legally blonde prequel series. Did she see the headlines for that? She's pretty young in that, right? Like, I don't know, like, why, how much prequel are we getting? I think it's like Young Sheldon, right? Which R-IB.

He's in it? I heard that just ended, too. No, it's like children. The headlines for the Rees-Witherspoon thing, it's just like... Sheldon is her law tutor? It's like Amazon finally announces its first prequel harvest from the MGM IP library. Oh, yeah. What are we doing?

What are we rooting for? The reason I bring up Lord of the Rings is I watch the trailer. I full caveat. I did not finish that first season of the show. But you started it, right? I did. And you didn't hate it? It was fine.

It was fine. But you're not a rings guy in general. I'm not about rings culture. No. This has been established. You're from the right city. Exactly. What I was struck by in this trailer was the complete dropping of any pretense that TV and movies are different.

The idea, at least, is I don't think I'm alone in interpreting this. I think this was kind of understood when the streaming stuff started and the idea of like, let's open up the Star Wars universe, let's open up the Marvel universe. The idea was like the movies will still exist as the biggest tent poles for the casuals and for the blockbuster biggest, widest screen stuff. People who are primarily interested in hunting gallum. Right, right, right, right. Like the people who can't get enough. That was really an open-ended question, right? Did we talk about that the other day?

And I mean this way, even before the fact that Peter Jackson, I mean, what are they doing? Warner Brothers is like, no, we're back in, too? I have a thing about this, but yeah. But my point is that I thought the TV stuff would be like, well, here is where we will do what TV can do, which is like, you know, longer form storytelling in the minutia. And I know this is a cliche. This is not me saying, like, give me the flea bottom show for that Game of Thrones. But at least that we can sort of build stuff.

You watch the Lord of the Rings season two trailer, and it's just like a dwarf being like, An ancient evil has awoken from like no fucking shit. Like where is this large sleep clinic where all the ancient evils are sleeping. The inception room where like Armie Mueller's stall is like, go to sleep evil. Evil, guess what? Ring a ding ding, ding. Evil woke up again. No sleep in the evil hospital.

And then once again, it's just like cool. They do the Avengers, you know, dolly shot where everyone pulls their weapons and we're off to the races again. And it feels honestly indistinguishable from a trailer you would see for a new Fellowship of the Ring movie. Yeah. We're just doing that now. And maybe that's more honest. Maybe that's good. Maybe that, I mean, clearly that moves eyes to stuff. but the reality of the show that has that will debut later the summer season two is that it's going to be what eight hours eight to ten hours of this but of what

of young soron just like young sheldon soron who fucks though yeah it's i mean like i i'm not let me be clear i'm not saying i want a thinky procedural middle earth show although put a private eye in it i'm interested what if it's the eye of soron but it's private holy shit That would have been cool if sugar was actually he wound up being Soron at the end. It would have been a lot better. But I'm saying like what we're going to end up with instead is this mushy middle thing where it's like in the same way that the Marvels is, this is a TV show because there's like TV characters and there's a lot of backstory you have to keep up with it.

But they're also like, I can't wait to be done with this era where we can't tell what things are. What are we going to talk about then? We're going to talk about TV shows and movies. Just not these TV movies, which is that we're living with. But you had a point because your thing, and you did like the Peter Jackson movies quite a bit, I know. Yeah. You've rewatched them. Yes.

Your thing walking away for those movies wasn't like what happened to Gallum. Your thing was, what's sort of like in the sack? No, well, first of all, the CR cut of those movies is, Golm is on mute. I am not a Gallum guy. I don't like watching him. I don't like when they're like, Gallum, you took my shortbread. You know, like, I hate that shit. Like, if you could, if I was running new line back then, I would have just been like less guys.

It's like Michael Deluca turns to his consigliary. And it's just U-Sirc, 2004 with a dart over your ear, sleeves rolled up, wearing a pretty girls-made Graves t-shirt, and you're like, Mike. We got to cut this guy out, man. What the fuck's up with the sad elf? That's actually not an elf. Who cares? Why does he talk like that?

Why does he talk like that? Just fight. Just take the ring, leave the ring. I don't care. Why are you crawling around? I love it. No, my actual, I was wondering whether or not there was a parallel between the way

that the Lord of the Rings is getting chopped up and served by different companies. And Amazon bought the TV rights to things that are not the three movies, like the three main books, right? The larger Tolkien universe. It's like, it's the Simerallion or whatever. But like, it's almost basically got a parallel

to the way the NFL, you need six streaming services to watch a complete NFL season coming up. this large thing has a lot of value. Yeah, it's on Netflix, Peacock, Amazon, ESPN. So Roger Goodell is like Paul Sorvino and Goodfellas. He's just slicing that product. But I think, you know, like, in some ways they're doing that with Lord of the Rings, where it's like there is a, there's a couple of characters who can be tracked by the films

that Warner Brothers are going to make, and I would assume eventually series. And then there are like these sort of ancillary stories and prequels and possibly, I guess, sequels, I don't even know that you could do around it. But it just struck me that, like, would you rather have one company overseeing Marvel style the entirety of the franchise? Or do you think, like, should we have, like, should we get to have, like, an A-24 Lord of the Rings story?

I'm interested. I know, I mean, I... I think, to continue the sports parol. Alex Garland's Lord of the Rings? It's just... My thing is, this is never going to be for me. Like, I don't like... I don't like the base product enough to care this much.

I like, but in the same way, like, I don't watch college football. I like football, but I want to watch the best. You know what I mean? Like, I'll wait till they come to me. Yeah. I mean, I, I'm not saying that to criticize people who love college football. I'm saying that I'm representative of some part of the audience that says, like, I want to see Denisville and Noves Dune movies.

Yeah. And that's enough for me. And that's probably okay. It's not enough for everyone. And I think it's awesome that people who have, That sounds so genuine. But just to be clear, if there was a private eye on Iraqis, you would watch that show. I would watch the shit out of it.

That would be so cool. You imagine you take, like the dude like takes the thing out of his nose and replaces it with the cigarette? Maybe in his nose. I can definitely imagine that. It seems odd to me, although maybe that's sort of a foolish pie in the sky or naive way to express this, that like after this many years of seeing the tepid returns on some of these projects, that these large companies are still fighting over scratch. of something that has such a low ceiling. I just mean that like because the Avengers movies made a billion dollars, we now have tangible proof that not all of those people who bought tickets

are that deeply interested in the inhumans or Ms. Marvel, which is okay, but it does still seem to be driving the culture, this idea that if we can definitely get this number of people, we can sell it to our bosses, as opposed to we'll do something that potentially has a higher floor and a lower ceiling. So from a cost analysis perspective, I'm sure that works for them. The other thing that's kind of fascinating about the last couple of shows that we've mentioned, Rings of Power, Dune Prophecy, to some extent, Agatha.

And I would even go as far as say as like, and I'm excited for House of the Dragon Season 2. Yeah. That show as well is the extent to which we are talking about it almost exclusively in the context of its franchise, being a franchise, and not being the creative work of a group of individuals. Yeah, or... We're not like, there's no, like, I can't wait to see

this person's take on Dune Prophecy. I don't even know who wrote Dune Prophecy or is directing Dune Prophecy. Like, they've obviously gone through a lot of... And I know who the guys are who did Rings of Power, but when you watch it, respectfully, I mean, I don't mean this to sound mean. It does look a little bit like AI Lord of the Rings, right?

Like, it's like, let's make Middle Earth. Well, it's management, which is an honorable thing to do in a very challenging job. Tell me about it. Yeah. I think, you know, my feelings about House the Dragon aside, like, that's a very interesting framing. Like, there probably are, I mean, it is a popular, it is a popular show that people are excited about. That's your house of the dragon take.

Yeah, but House the Dragon. But I mean, like, I also think it is benefiting from the fact that it is the only Game of Thrones content right now. It will be interesting to see, and I'm sure they've had many conversations and meetings and higher level stuff about this. Like, they are moving forward with... Kit Harrington had too much fun on industry, so he's not going to do John Snow. He just like doing that after-hours snow. That's an industry joke.

They do a lot of drugs on that show. I want to be very careful about how I'm phrasing that. That when they have... They've greenlit night of the Seven Kingdoms and they've cast it, so there will be another Game of Thrones show. Are they going to stagger it? So one's at the beginning of the year,

once the end of the year, because I do think the exclusivity of it is helping to fuel it. And I think they've managed that very well. I do think, though, like, tell me, okay, you tell me, is this just my take because I'm a little bit cynical about that show and not that big of a fan?

Like, my sense of it is that it's metric for success is, boy, it really delivered on this piece of lore. Like, it really nailed the history of this fake place that matters to me because I like Game of Thrones as opposed to, wow, season two, and we don't know, we haven't seen it, but like episode six of season two of House of the Dragon was a brilliant study in the, you know, dynamic of power between sexy nieces and their uncles.

Okay, sorry, I couldn't help myself. But do you know what I mean? Like, when you are working within something that is just trying to, it's service in a way. High-level artistic service, but they're filling in something as opposed to breaking new ground. Which is also something you and I are not above, right? Like, for instance. We do a podcast twice a week. I am not above.

Well, no, but I mean, like, my rings of power could very well. be described as Masters of Year. You know, like a show that is like, I don't think very good but was imminently watchable for me

because eminently watchable because... Imminately watchable because it's coming up soon. I just care. I just like that world. Yeah.

At war. That's why it was a world war. No, I like the 1940s and I like the guys like going off and fighting the Germans. Like that is just something I enjoy.

watching. It was a simpler time, Chris. And, like, so I think that everybody's got their Westeros. 100% true. It's just that this Westrose is the MVP right now. You know, it's like there's not a lot of, you know, we love Joelle M.B. He's not joker. Jokic.

No, he's definitely not. The interesting thing for me is to consider this, like the state of franchise stuff, like these big shows coming back, where their ceilings are, what their floors are. And again, it's challenging to compare them because they all serve different purposes for their companies. They are announcing them, unveiling them at these moments, you know, these upfronts, like in contrast with the other companies, this has value that we're not really tracking in terms of enthusiasm, sign-ups, subscriber, avoiding churn, all of that stuff.

And we didn't even mention other stuff like Amazon saying the Phoebe Waller Bridge Tomb Raider Show is going to series. Amazon saying... Mr. and Mrs. Smith is coming back, but without... I do want to talk about that. I meant more specifically the... Sorry to step on you. Just that the one that's relevant more here, I think, is...

the boys getting renewed ahead of the season for renewal, that like we're going to keep these pipelines going. Yeah. Put a pin in Mr. Mrs. Smith. I want to talk about it. The thing that I think is relevant here is the Netflix announcement about three body problem. Oh, yeah. I have a quote right here for you. So, okay, you take this and I feel like this is relevant. This is from to dumb.com or whatever like Netflix's blog. I'm glad you said it, not me.

The mind-bending sci-fi drama from David Beniof and D.B. Wyss and Alexander. Under Wu will return for more all new episodes on Netflix. The next episodes of Three Body Problem will be creative, executive produced, written by the returning trio of Beniof Weiss and Wu. Quote, we're thrilled that we get to tell this story through to its epic conclusion, said Beniof, Weiss, and Wu. Ever since we read the last page of this magnificent trilogy, we hope we'd be able to bring the audience to the end of the universe with us.

Here we go, exclamation point, close quote. and it actually says in the official press release, like basically there are no details on how many episodes or how many seasons. Let me go off book here, the way that has caused trouble for David Benioff and D.B. Weiss in the past. I would sign up for any streaming service

that guaranteed me a hard-knox version of the last three months inside the Beniof and Weiss production company and the phone calls to Netflix. I think this is one of the most fascinating and most instructive stories to come out of Hollywood in the last year.

And we don't know the truth. But there is so much spin here that it's like that this is what the people on the poster of Twisters are looking at. Like the two cyclones are behind them, but they're looking at what the fuck's going on here with three body problem. So to sum up,

coming off of Game of Thrones, Banioff and Wyss sign a huge, huge, huge overall with Netflix. Well, first they'd sign up to do a trilogy of Star Wars movies. Well, they're in their making, they do that, but that was their movie work. The Netflix deal happened concurrently. Okay.

And this was also, their timing, timing is everything with so much of this, that that was in the era when Netflix was like, we are going to prove our dominance by signing up everyone who makes TV. Right. To huge overall deals, Shonda Rimes, Ryan Murphy, who has since left Netflix. And not only, I mean, we're so committed to this, we're creating a whole new division just to manage these rich overall deals. So the jewel of their overall deal, and I'm sure they've already have that other show, the presidential manhunt thing that was announced, but they have other projects in development.

But the jewel of it is that they're going to do three body problem, which is the biggest outstanding, I mean, in terms of like no one has the rights to it, piece of fresh IP, right? This is a huge, huge science fiction trilogy, and they're going to do it. And all we hear is about like they're going to get it right. They're going to be careful.

They're, you know, the global production, a global cast. They're pivoting. They have the blessing of the author. From what we hear, this is one of, if not the most expensive television shows ever made. It comes out this year. We cover it. I loved the experience of watching the show. I'm not doing retroactively.

I'm not saying the Timberwolves are going to sweep. What I'm saying here is I loved two things about it. I unambiguously loved the first four episodes of this show. After that, I think it was pretty rough in a lot of ways. But you loved to watch it and like laugh about it and talk about it. And be like, here's a great big, sometimes dumb, sometimes insane swing. Right. And I'm really enjoying the places that it's taking me in terms of my mind expansion, but also that, wait, why is he wearing a bulletproof fest?

Like all of it. No, a bulletproof coveralls. Coverals. Yeah. The response, because this is Netflix, is so hard to read, right? It's just dumped. So we don't know, we can look at their top 10, but that's sort of hard to tell. we don't know what it's doing globally.

I think it definitely feels like it did not do what, say, baby reindeer has done or squid game done for it. It seems like it was, I really can't tell. Obviously, they feel like there's more meat on the bone that it's worth keeping this going. They obviously have a certain relationship with the creators. But this is my point. They signed them up to do this for years to deliver a consistent global smash. The fact that, like, it was released to middling reviews and then interviews with them being like, well, you know, we think four seasons we're going to be able to do these crazy things.

And it was like when we read The Red Wedding, we knew it if we could get to season or whatever, we would do it. Nothing, nothing, nothing. And then a press release being like, yeah, they're going to finish it. Well. What was going back and forth? For the last three months, have they been like, give us three more seasons. And Netflix is like, you cost 20x baby reindeer. I don't, I do really think that Netflix is now having sticker shock?

Do you know what I mean? Like, the thing is on the service still. Like, it is. Yes, I think they are. I think that they are in the business of doing what baby reindeer did. I think that Netflix is in the business of dominating culture, grabbing eyeballs, and constantly being the new, hot, next thing. And I think that when they realized that three-body problem,

even if you're the biggest fan of it, the three-body problem is going to never really break out of the box of, this is a really compelling thing that's going to build a steady global audience over multiple years. They were like, that's not the business we're in. Right. And I think the conversations that went on must have been kind of spicy of them saying, we need this and them saying, we don't want to do that. The fact that they made it to the upfronts without any details is wild.

Well, I mean, maybe they're still, I mean, they made it sound like we're going to get episodes. In this release, it makes it sound like we might get episodes sooner than we think, you know. And if you think about the remaining cast and what, you know, they may have other obligations, there might be a window. Like, I wonder whether or not, like, as often. and it'll be like, so-and-so is join the cast of a movie that's done shooting. And it's like, actually, they were in the movie. They just announced it now.

So they're announcing now that these guys are going to see this through to its epic conclusion. That, I'm sure, has been discussed at length about what it's going to be. I don't think those guys are like... No, they've been writing more. Yeah. But my guess is... I wonder if they've been shooting more. I don't think they've been shooting more.

And I don't think they're whiteboard wherever they have or the multiple whiteboards. I don't think they were like, yeah, we can do it in three more episodes in 2026. I don't think that was the model. Do you think that's what this means? It could. It could mean like you get four two-hour episodes to wrap up this thing. Or, you know, like the way that some of these streamers have been handing out, like, yeah, it's a fourth and final season, but it's three episodes.

Or like, we'll put a bow on it. You can finish the story of the movie. Those are the negotiations that are going on. I'm pretty sure. And there was nothing about the eighth episode of the first season that said, we're almost done. There was nothing there that they would suggest that. And, you know, frankly, the last time Beniof and Weiss, were rushed to a conclusion?

This was your point. Yeah, I mean, I think these guys having, I think that these guys have like a track record with Game of Thrones of being like, we'd like to be done. To be fair, they were living in Belfast for like 11 years, and they were like, we need to wrap this up. Like, this is, we don't want to make 20 more episodes.

HBO is like, let's do more seasons. I know that. This is a cash cow. We're talking about how Iger, for example, has successfully steered the ship through a dramatically changing industry over the last 18 months and come out the other side of it because he stepped away for a while to be like, you know,

tan rested and ready for what's to come. Banyoff and Weiss's experience from the end of Game of Thrones until now was the same journey, but the Wild Water Rapids version of it. And I'm saying this as someone who believes in their vision of creativity, and I would like to see them see this show through to the very end, whatever their end is. And I think they got smacked in the face with this. Like I am fascinated by this. I know nothing behind the scenes.

I'll say this, though. This feels like, let me say a dramatic thing. This feels like a gigantic failure for what it was expected. I don't mean they fail. I like the experience. I just mean from what Netflix thought they were doing back when Netflix was doing it to now. And they can spin it and they can press release it and we'll see what the final resolution of it is. But this took my breath away.

Yeah, I will be fascinated to see if they are like, three body problem wraps up its story with an epic. three episode six hour event. I mean, there's two books left. Or if they're like, actually, here's the 11 episodes we need. So we're going to do six and five or five and six or whatever, like in terms of like a two-season order. I think that there's probably like a little bit, another shooter drop with this that kicks in their direction rather than the way you're saying where it's like Netflix is basically

writing this off and to save face are like, these guys are going to bring this to an epic conclusion. I agree with you. And I think that what this mostly smacks of is that deals weren't done. and they hadn't agreed. What was announced and was clearly a part of, like, the requirement almost, was that in this release, they say, we have extended our deals with Fannieoff Weiss and Alexander Wu.

So if they couldn't say how many seasons, because clearly I think the takeaways they're arguing over that, they would say we've made a commitment to each other to see this through. And look, I'll switch completely from glass empty to glass half full to say, like, maybe this is, maybe ultimately this will be best. If they agree on 12 hours more or whatever, then hit the ground running and make really good 12 hours. I don't know, like, does the cast have to change over? How far into the future is this going?

Like, is this all in space? If it's all in space, is it weirdly cheaper than shooting it in, like, six different cities? Like, I have no idea how this, like, plays out in that practical way. I'm more excited for more seasons of three-body problem than I am for more seasons of prequels to Game of Thrones and Rings of Power. Me too. And I am actually bigger fans of all of those things than you are at this point. But I am probably more, the same way I'm more excited for a second season of Last of Us than all of this stuff. Because it just feels like it's at least a new story to me.

I completely agree with you. And I think that's what I feel like I came out hot being like three body problem messed it up. But I don't, I feel like I would be more interested in that. Yeah. Whether quality aside. And I'm also just really, really clearly worked up and fascinated by these projects that like the messages to the Santee took years to be received and responded to how they're looking on the other side of this massive seismic shift. Dune Prophecy is it called? Dune Prophecy. It was called Sisterhood

Hood of Dune. Dune Prophecy is coming out. So in a way, that message was sent years ago and received. We don't know what it's going to look like, what it's going to be like, how it's going to be received. But it's coming out. They said they were going to make a Ben-Jeserate show. They made one. The three-body problem, we're going to do this. Here's how it's it's going to maybe stumble to a conclusion, feels much more dramatically affected by the shift. Yeah, I didn't quite have that read, but I thought that they gave themselves

a lot of outs in the statement of how it could go, whether it's two more episodes to bring this to a wrap and it's like a big movie event on Netflix or it's three more seasons. I don't know. I mean, I just think it's going back to the first thing we said about Iger and Disney. It's branding and it's optics.

And, you know, Agatha was just kind of out there for them to refashion into whatever they wanted it to be when it finally comes out. And they can do that now. They can say, like, this was always our prestige plans, like do something cool and sideways.

It just took us a minute to get there. That was not the messaging of Three Body. And I don't mean when it was announced, I mean as recently as earlier this year, when Beniof and Weiss are doing their global press tour being like, four seasons, we're going to blow your mind. I mean, they were saying things like that.

They did say if we're given the chance to, but they were clearly expecting to be doing this for a while. I'm sure Netflix expected them to. I mean, having the guys who did Game of Thrones do an international time-spanning sci-fi epic does not feel like a really hard bet to me. I think when you watch the show itself, it's so dense and so complicated, frankly, in parts of it that it probably turned off some of the casuals of you're talking about who watched three Lord of the Rings movies like every couple of years.

You know, like that's a different person. And one thing that's really fascinating about Beniof and Weiss's stewardship, both of this and of Game of Thrones, is that there was a story. school of thought at the end of Game of Thrones where it's like if you guys don't want to do this just let Brian Cogman do it you know like if you guys don't want to keep doing this for two more seasons why not turn the reins over to the you must have some you know like apprentices in the camp here you've been developing these guys over the course of years and you've got the stable of directors who can probably sustain at least the visual like quality levels that you've become accustomed we've all become

accustomed to with Game of Thrones like maybe take a step back and be like executive producers living in Los Angeles looking at scripts and looking at cuts, but you're not there hands-on doing these things. That may have led to a different kind of bad or a different kind of crap ending for that show, but I think that if they felt like they could tell the story at the same tempo that they told the rest of the story, that would have been for the best.

With this, it's interesting, like, I don't know, like, I wonder if Netflix ever considered, like, thank you for starting this amazing journey and now these people are going to come in and make it cheaper. Or more palatable. Going by how Netflix runs their talent relationships, I bet it's come up. I mean, the role of these two guys is really, really interesting because I think that in the larger culture talking about this specific type of genre culture, they are considered heroes because they took something that was dense and fan-oriented and blew it out to the biggest show on HBO. Yeah.

So they're like they're the genre whispers. And we talked about this in the beginning parts of three-body problem being like, it looks like they put their fences down in a smart way to bring people into something that is really dense, really hard sci-fi. By the end of the season, I started to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, they've actually softened the focus so much

that we've lost anything that makes this special because it's just like, six chums in London have a really weird time. Like, that didn't ultimately work. And so the question, the battle with this stuff, is always sharpening the focus or softening the focus

in terms of who you're letting in and who you're making it for, to your point, purely cutthroat, purely capitalist way of looking at it, hiring people who are extremely talented. And I want to be very clear. Like, the people who make Lord of the Rings of Power, I mean, like, it's really fucking hard to do shows on this scale. Or what's the one that we never even talk about with the other Amazon show on the Robert Jordan books? Wheel of Time. Yeah.

We don't even talk about that. But there are people living in Europe making this show for what I imagine to be a robust global audience. like hiring people who are really good at that but aren't the face of the franchise it's a different investment because one of the reasons why free body problem is one of if not the most expensive shows ever it's not just the global cast and shooting

it's David Benyoff and D.B. Weiss and their own overall deal plus what they expect. The space relay rate. I mean like the visual effects on that show alone are probably make it one of the more expensive shows ever made. Don't you think? Yes, but I think that the I'm trying, but I also think that part of the shift in the industry is the calculus of like, at what price point do these things make sense for us? And if we can with, with the volume and

with, you know, the cut rate of shooting in certain countries that look the other way for whatever, like we can churn out B minus stuff. Yeah. At a reliable rate. Yeah. And we don't need to win Emmys for everything anymore. And frankly, that's also Netflix's move over the last eight years. And, you know, from Master of Nun to Flores Lava, they're like, why are we chasing this expensive bubble when we've just, dominated the world. It'll be really interesting to see where this nets out with the future order of this show. Did you want to talk about Mr. and Mrs. Smith? I want to do a little bit of Top Chef before we get to...

Yeah, just to say, I was thrilled that it was renewed. Francesca Sloan will be EPing a new season of Mr. Mrs. Smith, but they were very, very specific in the announcement saying Donald Glover and Myerskin will not be starring in the show. Yeah. So I think the tea leaves were there. They set it up that way, that the idea of John and Jane Smith, that those are just... But there's dozens of these couples out there, yeah. And so it's an opportunity to tell a different marriage story with different cast.

Or a different story altogether. A different story altogether. So I'm a little disappointed because, as we said, and we were covering it, and this is absolutely one of my favorite shows of 2024, like, it just had the bones to go the distance. But I don't think, especially in a week when Childish Gambino announces a world tour, that, like, keeping these guys in regular series roles is possible. I think it's cool.

I think it's very well handled and the fact that Francesca is staying on as showrunner, I think is a really good sign. Yeah, that's the thing that matters. I think I love the show so much and I think she deserves a lot of the credit for that. So I'm excited. Okay, so there are two shows coming on today, essentially, which is Outer Range is returning after a two-year absence from airwaves. That was a real late pandemic favorite of mine.

It was Josh Borland show. It's essentially a sci-fi western about a rancher who disenfrancher who disenfrancher. discovers a giant hole on his ranch and his property. And that hole is basically a portal to other times, other eras. And through there's also like a huge like, who is this woman mystery with Imogen Puts who has shown up in town. It's a great ensemble cast with Brolin, Lily Taylor, Lewis Pullman, Tom Pelfrey, Image and Puts as I mentioned, Will Patton is out of his mind in the show.

This was a very funny thing to go back to because two years is actually quite a long time now. Yeah. I am always battling my memory and why I can remember like the lyrics of a B-side from an Arches of Loaf song from 1996, but I cannot remember what happened on Outer Range. Anya Taylor Joy was on our podcast. Exactly. But I had to do, I would say a significant amount of scholarship to remember what happened on the first season of a show that I quite liked. I'm excited for the second season. I would say that unfortunately, I would say that you probably need to at least watch a six-minute video of what has.

happened on the first season and or read any number of explainers. There's one on Vulture that's like, hey, what, what's going on here? And even if you did, I think you'd then miss out on the charm of the first season, which is these characters coming to grips with something extraordinary happening in their ordinary lives. So this one, and I really biffed these last two years, huh? I never really took the time. But I'm interested in the show.

I think you would actually really like this show. This is my thing. So I think I would like to. Can we reframe your pitch? not just, you could talk to me if you want, or I could talk to our listeners. Like, the idea, it's so telling about where we're at with TV

that the way you're introducing it is, like, here is the labor required because of the time and because, both time in, you know, viewers' lives, but also time that has elapsed. I think that the real headline, though, is you think this one is worthy of this. Like, this is, this is probably,

um, I wouldn't go as far to say, but given all the Amazon news, we just read out about Legally Blonde prequel. and Tomb Raider and Alex Cross. Yeah, like this feels like the last vestige of Amazon being weird of the

Tool to Die Young, Fleabag like 0-0-0 the English. The English. They gave a playwright an opportunity to make a Western because Josh Brollam was like, I'm down. And it is full of people, performers

and writers, and even the filmmakers, making real choices, in a way. way that you just don't get on 95% of TV shows. 95% of TV shows just feel like they're like, what is the safest possible way for us to present this stuff to you? What's a, you know, even a show like,

Manhunt, for instance. Like, I would say a lot of Apple shows. This is a good segue, by the way. Because, the other show we're going to talk about.

So many Apple shows come with, like, man, I am interested in this. I am interested in this topic. I would love to watch a show about the hunt for Lincoln's Killer or about pilots during, World War II or a detective who might have a secret or whatever.

And then you get into it and there is something about it that feels like it feels like it's happening inside of a commercial for itself. I don't even know how to explain this. I can. And I completely agree. You want to talk about Big Cigar. So this is such a specific and it's a little bit inside baseball way to look at, again, this change over the last few years.

But from the way you're describing out of range to talking about the big cigar. It's just a weird show. It's so rare to get weird shows anymore. It kind of makes sense to me. And you could talk about it for a number of reasons. We don't actually know what goes on inside of Apple. And we'll use the same caveat that we always do, which is that in any of these streaming services,

there's really good stuff. So I don't want to paint with too broad of a brush because Apple does have severance and slow horses, and they made bad sisters. Like their stuff is getting through, right? But sometimes I wonder if it does have to do with the fact that both Apple is, up until recently anyway, with the iPad fiasco, like the master marketer of its time in terms of a corporation that is

very concerned with image and presentation. And the two guys who have been running their studio and their service come from Sony where they were selling. So many of the Apple shows that I feel absolutely positive medium about, which is Manhunt, which is the big cigar, which is the what was the Ben Mendelsohn fashion show that we kind of the new look the new look all of these shows i think probably were absolutely killer pitches they tick all the boxes they're like oh this is a world you have a visual look here's a story that in many of these cases is actually true which people are interested in and it and is a separate hook we're going to get we're going to cast this with an inch of its life we never even mentioned that michael douglas is in a show

about Benjamin Franklin in Europe. It's another example of that. It is a killer package to walk into the room with. It seems like where the ball gets dropped is, okay, but what's the TV show? Yep. So the Big Cigar is based on an article by Joshua Berman that he wrote for Playboy that 10, 12 years ago about a true thing that happened in American history where the Black Panther Party founder, Huey Newton,

who's played wonderfully in the show by one of our favorite actors, friend of the watch. Andre Holland was aided and abetted in fleeing what he perceived to be a, you know, he was being persecuted unfairly crimes he didn't commit by this sort of radical Hollywood producer, Bert Schneider, who's played by Alessandro Navola. And it involves a really wild tale that is, again, mostly true about a fake movie and Cuba and Hollywood. Kind of has a little bit of an Argo feel, right? Yes, and Argo was also written.

The article that inspired the movie was also written by Joshua Berman. And all of the pieces work. All of the pieces make sense. Don Cheadle directed the first two episodes. He does a good job. It has style. It has personality. It has verve and interesting story.

And it feels positively medium. You know, that's my takeaway. Like, there's nothing wrong with watching the show. There's nothing, it's actually hard to say of anything wrong with the show. It's like a really, really, really, really well-made and well-delivered PowerPoint presentation for itself. Right? And I think ultimately that's why I fell off on Manhunt, too. I'm like, yeah, I can hang with this.

I'm interested. Can you point to a single thing in Manhunt that was bad? I can't. No. But it's kind of- Performances were good. The production design was great. It looked good.

You know, like, yeah, it was just. But it's frictionless. It was like reading nonfiction. You know what I mean? Like, I like nonfiction. And sometimes nonfiction jumps off the page at me. But a lot of the times I'm just kind of like, okay. And this is not just an Apple thing.

I mean, this is where the industry went in the last few years when they were trying to, if you couldn't have the safety of a pre-existing comic book or whatever, or IP, the pre-existing safety of history, or more specifically, history as previously told through the lens of a podcast. So, like, the vast majority of things that have crossed my email from my agency, of like to consider open writing assignments in the last few years, have been, check out this article from this magazine, check out this podcast. And then you get this thing that is already kind of predigested partially, like a mother

bird trying to feed its young, where it's like, where it's like, where do you find the life in a story that already has people and the spoiler-filled reality of the public record. Yeah. I mean, did you have a different take on Big Cigar at all? There's nothing wrong with it. No. It could get better. I'm interested in this era.

I think that there was an article on Vulture, I think, that was about, like, the problem with that Kristen Wig show that's on Apple, Paul Morale, is that nobody's smoking. This is your problem with many television shows. but I imagine that that is probably a note from Apple. That's an Apple note for sure. And I felt like watching the first big cigar, like that there was kind of a safety net thrown over what should be a volcanic story.

It should be bursting at the seams and ugly in places. You know what I mean? And instead it had a kind of cutesyness to it. It just felt like the training wheels were on it. Not in a way where I was like, oh, this. is rudimentary and it's telling or anything like that. But in that I was never like, is there going to be a hole in the ground? Is there going to be like, is something we were going to happen here? Like is, is there going to be a performance that like comes out of left field and

knocks everybody off their axis? Let me put my arms around this whole thing before we then get to Adrian Brody. But like this has been one of my favorite conversations that we've had in a while about the state of TV because I think we're touching on everything that is currently happening or affecting the industry. If you take the training wheels off something, you open up the possibility of two outcomes. You could go really, really fast, or you could crash. And everyone is so scared of the ladder that they don't really allow things to be the former. What we're looking for and what you and I always respond to, and I think people generally respond to in TV, movies, and art is smoking. It's smoking. People looking cool, sucking poison into their life, fiberglass,

but also risk, choices, specific. danger. Honestly, it's why I like three body problem. And that's what I was going to say, too. Three body problem goes fucking nuts at the end. They're like, put your glasses on nerds. It's weird. And it does not work in some major, major ways. But like, oh, someone was alive in there making a choice that I might not love. I mean, I keep thinking about, and I hope people who listened this far into this podcast took time to listen to our talk with Scott Frank the other week. But like, I keep thinking about our conversation with him because he came on to be like, I'm ready to defend the end of Monsieur Spade. Don't stop listening.

We're not going to spoil it. It doesn't matter right now. But what he said was, he's like, I thought that would be a good idea. He's like, I thought it would be cool. And I did it. Yeah. That's fucking cool. And when you are a rich, successful guy, you can do that.

So kudos to Scott for earning that opportunity. But at the same time, I would 100 times out of 100 like to see a big swing and a miss than see someone just playing it safe and taking right down the middle. And so there's something, there's something in the water that can connect rings of power to the big cigar. It was this podcast. It was this podcast. And I don't begrudge people trying to keep their jobs and trying to make medium content. This is what it is.

We're watching all of these shows probably like it's, it's fine. Did you want to try and do you want to save Top Chef for Monday? Yeah, let's save Top Chef because we, it keeps. We're the Kings being like today. Isn't this the Jimmy Kimmel Matt Damon thing? Oh yeah. Like, just keep pushing. Okay.

So what we're going to do now. is go talk to Adrian Brody. Adrian Brody dialed this up from Parts Unknown to just say what's up and talk about winning time, which is obviously on the campaign trail

for an Emmy nomination for his portrayal of Pat Riley on season two. Despite his cancellation. Of that show, and sadly, we won't get to see more Pat and more Adrian Brody.

He's so good in that in that show. He's also obviously incredible in succession. We talked to him a little bit about Josh Aronson and wearing layers. Got to talk to

a little bit about his working relationship with Wes Anderson and just like what it's like being him. And he was awesome. He, um, just for just for some sort of sonic background, like he was speaking to us in front of a beautiful window with a greenery outside and you could hear the bird song, which I thought made a nice ambient touch if it got picked up in the podcast. Also at certain points, he has a tiny dog who leapt into his lap. Life goes on even when you're on the watch. Life seems pretty good for our, our, one of our faves, Adrian Brody. That was cool to talk to it. Here's our conversation with Adrian Brody. Andy and I will be back on Monday with top chef.

Top chef, probably. What else? Well, I mean, we could talk more about some of these series there. Do you want me to crush season of that or a weekend? Yeah, you do that. Anything for you. You do that. Thank you to Olivia for producing us today.

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The active cash credit card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms apply. I wanted to ask you, so like you're basically, I know you're not supposed to spook the pitcher, but you're thrown a little bit of a no-hitter with prestige TV shows here where you're on Peeky Blinders. I think you got nominated for Houdini, you're on winning time.

This is kind of a new phase for your career where you're like, I don't know, you're kind of like the Michael Clayton of coming into these shows and you fix everything. It's not that they're broken, but you know what I mean? Like you're coming through and you're really heating it up.

And what's that like for you after such a long and story career? Well, I think it's an industry shift. And it's obviously there are many actors that you've mostly seen on film doing lots of work in the kind of episodic space

is because that's where a lot of the shift for demand for content has gone as you know and the writing is there and the you know you have to go where the roles are if you want to inhabit

characters and it's been an interesting journey because I'm I've been doing this my whole life, right? And I'm so accustomed to this very deep immersion that I do on a film and that the time frame enables me to do. So I completely, as much as I can, and depending on how much is necessary for the role, but I'll really get quite deeply in it.

Yeah, but it's been great, it's been great fun. I, you know, Succession was so great to play with those guys and I love the show and that came as a bonus really for saying yes to winning time. You know, Adam McKay and the team there all work together and he's a creator on the show as well. And obviously there was this role that they felt that was right for. And I was like, I would love to come and play and be a part of that. So it was a great bonus. And then the other stuff has all been really interesting.

Houdini, I used to be a magician, as you probably know, I was a boy. So my mother, my mother photographed Penn & Teller at Houdini's grave. Like, he's always been a mystical source for many young boys, but for me especially. And I always look at magic as the introduction to performance and learning to kind of tell stories and captivate an adult audience as a child and kind of the power of that. And I think that indirectly or directly kind of led to me appreciating character work

and becoming creating something. And so it's been special. We definitely have some questions for you about your appearances on Succession, but I did want to start, as you just referred to, your role in winning time is Pat Riley. was really fantastic. And I was really curious about something you said,

about the change going from movie to TV, which is like knowing where the mile markers are in a role. When you know you're going to be shooting a movie and inhabiting a person for three weeks, five weeks, whatever the case may be, I think that's a certain psychology goes along with that. When you take the role of Pat Riley in winning time, especially where the show started

and where Pat was in his life when you began playing him, it's a long highway, right, with a lot of potential exit ramps that you can't foresee. how did you shift your process to find a starting point without knowing a fixed endpoint? It's a really wonderful question and was a learning experience for me. You know, also when you sign up for multi-seasonal episodic program, you don't really know those. And the writing team doesn't necessarily know them. Or if they do know them, they're not necessarily sharing that with the actor.

And my understanding and hope was to get into the Pat Riley that we all know earlier in some way. In retrospect, it's really amazing that they created such a long story art for a character. And obviously, a third season would have been wonderful to really delve more deeply into him in that space and really leading the charge and kind of owning that era and really guiding all those guys to, you know, many triumphs, as you know. But ultimately it gave me, because I had to live with him, you know, at times that were difficult for him, that I didn't understand implicitly going in and read a lot about him and read his books and memoirs. And there was so much that I identified with and that I appreciated. in his transformation.

And so it was really about having patience with that. I was so hungry to delve into the meat of the story for his life and for his journey and to represent that to audiences and people who love him and are curious about him. I wanted to drill down on the point you just said, which is something that really popped, I think, to both of us in watching the show, which is like, look, if you're making a show about 80s basketball, we're going to watch it. it's probably already pre-sold for people like us. But what was so beautiful to observe over the two seasons that you gave us

was the way you locked in on something kind of low-key, which gave us something else to track, which is one man discovering that he's really good at something and surprising himself and then fighting like hell to keep it. And I wondered without overstepping, like in the psychoanalysis, like if you related to that on any level. Sure, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

And that's why that's kind of what I was alluding to is that. Yeah. And I don't feel like I'm alone in that. But I mean, the world is so competitive. We all know that. The world is competitive. And in the arts or in a profession like being an actor or anything where there's very few moments to achieve greatness, realistically,

that you're right for and that you will somehow get a shot at, considering that there are people higher up on the totem pole for whatever reason that are going to have that access for us and for timing to work and for all that. And yet for you to believe in your own potential and what you really want to share and deliver and it's not just about, it's about a journey. And I completely identified with that. And I've spent many years kicking around in L.A. I moved there at 19 with nothing. You know, I had two bags and a buddy of mine that I knew from New York that I did a commercial with who said, you could crash on my futon and bought a motorcycle and kicked around with a Thomas guide and meeting, you know, going on auditions. I always marveled it because it was pre-cell phones and I had to like to really check a pager or go to a pay phone and call my agents and shift things around and kind of wait.

And so playing Pat in those days, and I've lived in Venice, and I've kicked around in Venice, and I kind of identified very much with that period of limbo. You know, I think as an athlete, too, you know, you're unfortunately retired early, you know, and it's very, you know, sports are cruel. I mean, so is show business, for that matter. But it's more, you either win or you lose and you have a lifetime. preparing and then you have that little window. And then the beauty of acting is you have so much that you can draw from and you can find

inspiration everywhere and in your own personal hardships and the hardships of others and the hardships and gain empathy and and a degree of introspection through being in there and sharing that and being connected in a way, if that makes sense. Yeah, it does actually. I mean, it's like I would imagine that the sort of Catch 22 of fame is that, or success is that as you become a little bit more successful or, you know, you arrive at a certain point in your life, you feel like you're getting away from the thing that got you there in the first place

and the energy that maybe you captured in the first place. I mean, it must be very complicated to navigate. It's a perception thing. It's not, and that perception leads to a shift. I mean, at least personally, I felt, you know, but it's like, first of all, I wouldn't trade it back to be a broke anonymous actor who is struggling against all those obstacles in addition to trying to get those roles. And that is the work is what brings me great meaning and fulfillment in my life, right? And not the other aspects. But those other aspects fortunately come with work.

and if that work is received and it can come from other ways. But I think if it's related to the work, then you have this connection and you have a connection with fans and people who see the work you've done or know the work. And I'm always amazed because I, you know, I'll meet people and they'll bring up. This woman recognized me.

She recognized me from my driver's license at checking in at the airport. and I did this movie called Bread and Rose as many years ago with Ken Loach. And we, you know, we organized with the local janitor's union. And the beauty of also being an anonymous actor is that people don't recognize you and you can really inhabit somebody. So I went with the guy that I was, my role was based on, and we went and picketed a hotel.

And I stood up with all these people. and I did home visits in their home. And anyway, I had interacted somehow. Her mother was Ken Loach hires real people to portray characters in the film. And she was in the movie. But she, I don't think she'd seen anything else. She only had that point of reference.

Many, many years ago, another lifetime ago. And I just thought it was so interesting. And it was like we knew each other after that. That's amazing. Her mother knew me. to work with me and it was just so interesting. This is also beautiful, Adrian, because I brought up Ken Loach on the podcast yesterday and I got dragged for it.

So you were really backing me up here in mind. I wasn't dragging him. I was just like, all right, Ken Loach. You got it. He was asking what movie I watched on a plane. I was like, I got to be me. I watched the new Ken Loach. And he was like, come on.

You got to speak up for Ken Loach. He's a wonderful filmmaker and amazing. He's a real wonderful human being, you know. He's really devoted. to his craft and was standing up for what he believes in. I love Ken. I had a quick question about the immersion thing that you brought up a second ago because after I knew we were going to be doing this interview,

I think I actually also was in an airport. And I saw Pat Riley's annual postseason press conference that he gives as the president of the heat. And I was like, damn, this guy is still going. And I was wondering whether or not, if you've ever played somebody, where the wealth of things to draw on was like this immense,

where you're like, I can still turn on my TV and see this guy, like, actively working for an NBA team. Have you ever had a role like this before where you're like, I don't even know where the beginning begins and the end ends here? Well, I knew what areas of focus

and also what was expected of me from production. and had to kind of zone in on those, obviously. But I always feel a sense of responsibility anyway, especially when I'm playing, inhabiting a person that's lived, let alone is alive and thriving, and it has affected so many people's lives and has established himself in such a way in the sport and changed the sport.

And I benefited a lot from, getting this kind of guided tour through his journey. And also with a degree of being relieved that we finally got there. We got over that precipice of that long arc of kind of dealing with the lamb chops and the big mustache and kind of trying to give him what he earned and deserved while there's all this reference to a time that is not really representative of him. And then the show doesn't get picked up for a chance to really let him triumph and revel in that. And that's life. That's also scary.

So, you know, I roll with it. And but you have to appreciate those moments. You appreciate even just getting there. Yeah, you have to. If it was one and done the first season, you'd be like, that guy, Brody, really just did the weirdest interpretation. you never saw on. But a lot of what you're talking about is really circling this point of like just how

how little control there is in an actor's career. And the thing that gives us a lot of excitement about consistency in your career, and I imagine it fills a similar role for you is your relationship with Wes Anderson because it does seem to be one of the few reliable things for us as audiences and maybe for you in your career. And I wondered if you could just talk a little bit about

what it's like just getting a call and being told, got to be in Spain or wherever else he's filming. And secondly, just what it is in terms of your own self-analysis, what allows you to be so remarkably good at sort of interpolating his scripts and bringing out the emotion along with the style, you know, in a beautiful way. That's a really nice. Thank you for saying that.

I love Wes. You know, he's become a dear friend. I've loved his work before we met. Turns out he felt the same way and considered me for something. and I wish he had hired me, but that's another story for another day. But when we finally met for Darjeeling Limited in New York, he took me to dinner and we were walking down Houston, and I remember him telling me this and telling me that he almost hired me.

And I was like, wow, that would have kind of changed a lot. But the journeys that we've been on, and it was just his birthday, and I just wrote him basically thanking him for what he's brought into my life and friendships and fascinating dinners and encounters, but life journeys of living in India altogether with our core team lived in this one house in Jodhpur, and we'd have to get ready on our own. There was no makeup hair or anything.

You just basically got yourself together. There was a suit in your room with a microphone not plugged into the past, already set they gave you this box cold meal and you had to get to the train station by 5.30 or so in the morning or you missed the train because we shot on this moving train track so you basically essentially miss the set would go to the set would leave no one no one ever missed it like the responsibility was pretty enormous but you know I've worked with wonderful people and I'm really grateful for that, but that journey

and the fact that it's continued on through all these fascinating roads has been really special. And with regards to the work, Wes is so unique and so meticulous. And I think he's become even more comfortable with embracing his own expectations and styles and his work is so unique and so indelibly his own that it's a pleasure to try and live up to what his expectations are.

That is the acting work, that it's really hard work to do because, first of all, my brain doesn't work that fast and I stutter and stumble and think and there's no room for that. however you have to make it feel your own within that and it's very specific work. And it's remarkable when you see it back because it's choreographed and like clockwork and he does these moving masters that are so complex and eloquent and you know, it's this dance

and Sanjay are his key grip who's been with us since Darje Ling who is. an enormous asset to him will be taking the camera off a dolly track and inserting it onto another dolly and coming this way and that way and all of this choreography that's going on in front of you off camera as you're trying to not get too far to the left

make sure this president and pray that the other actor doesn't blow that line because you can do it again and then like you don't blow a line and it's really wonderful It's really, it's very high pressure, but it's really done. He's, he's very, he's very calm in his demeanor and his way of getting there. And it does feel very much like a family, which is also very special.

You know, he makes sure that everyone is there to dine together and to kind of spend the time together, rather than clock in and out and go off and isolate. I think it's easy to do that, especially when you have a lot of work to do and live, busy lives. And there's nothing wrong with it necessarily, but there's something special

when you're encouraged to participate the whole time you're really working together for that month or two or whatever it is. Yeah. I was wondering whether or not, I don't know how what your relationship is when it comes to rewatching or watching your stuff, like if it's on or if you choose to do it.

But if you had maybe not, it's like whether you had personally a favorite experience on a film by him or whether there's a film by him that you're in or even one that you're not in that you return to often as a viewer. For context, Adrienne, Chris rewatched Asteroid City for the third time while I was watching the Ken Loach movie. That's true. And he was deeply, deeply moved again.

Really? Oh, that's, that's, yeah, man, that movie's incredible. that you know like that it's it's an amazing film yeah he's he um I think Grand Budapest is one of my favorites I love Darjeeling but it's a more emotional

personal it's very paint yeah it brings back other memories and time in my life and so I don't really really put on my movies and watch them but you know if if something I haven't seen anything of mine in a while except the last

film that was released just because I showed it to people and they had mixed reaction to it and the one guy I found out, it's like I never, he's never seen any of my movies. A friend of mine and it's like a neighbor and he can't have seen any of my movies and I was like, that's the movie you

you're basing everything on it. It's also like, come on man, you never saw you never saw predators, you never like it just have, yeah, right? Not one. And we're still friends, which is nice. That's cool. That's nice.

That's bigger. For now. That's okay. Look, man, we don't want to take up too much of your time. Yeah, Andy. If I can, we don't want to take too much of your time, but we'd be remiss, Adrian, just to let you know that, like, your role in succession was awesome. We were so excited to see you. But it's especially relevant to this podcast because you brought so much to this part of Josh Aronson.

But one of the things that you either brought or was brought to you was that, Josh wore at least five shirts in his scenes. And I don't know if you were aware of this, but it gave you the reputation that Chris also shares as a layer king. And I wanted to know either, did you bring this? Was this your own method? Or what does that do for you other than like core warmth? Well, it does a lot. I mean, it's a conversation.

I'm happy to share it with you. I mean, it's, they were wonderful. And the costume department was wonderful and had a lot of options and really were involved. involved in all of the process of that. But, you know, the character is, in a very short period of time, I had to establish a kind of mastery of domain and understanding of tactical prowess that exceeded, at least in that moment, the two protagonists that you're used to watching reigns supreme and find himself in a position of power. That was coupled with me being personally very ill.

Oh, no way. I got very sick. And we were going to shoot in Montau. Bless you, speak of the devil. Dogs caught me. And I felt that, so when I play a character and I'm working, I choose not to work against what I'm actually feeling if it works for the character. So I actually brought a bottle of affrin and they cut around it. I guess they opted that it was too much, whatever. But as we were doing the whole business in the house and as I was getting ready, whatever, I would take a little affrin and kind of, you know, in my character, in this home and, you know, in between setting up, let's go take.

this walk and getting prepared I kind of incorporated the fact that I wasn't 100% and the layers signify to me a preparedness you know he knows he's going to take them on this hike he does they don't know they're going to go for a long hike they think they're going to go for a little walk he knows his grounds and feels like he's going to take them and kind of let things unravel a bit between the two with them so that he discerns whether they're capable of, you know, what the real status is of their relationship. And he's prepared for the elements. So if it's too hot and I hike and I like it and I know to be prepared. And there were elements also in the script that we ended up adjusting. They really

did a wonderful thing. They really gave me some new material with a lot more bite that I was really grateful for him and there were elements about the character foraging and everything so that was already in my head about him kind of being this ultra rich man who's kind of like do you forage like he's kind of like you know going after the uh you know feeling that he's one with nature and and uh and so i i wanted him to just be have the upper hand as much as i could display that and in a not necessarily so subtle way, but in a way that was apparent. And, you know, if he wanted

to strip down and tie a, you know, a shell over his waist, he could do that. He had a hat to cover himself for the elements. And it was chilly in the morning, obviously, by the water. And then it sometimes heats up. And so I know all of these things. And they showed up chopper in with their suit and loafers

on, and I have the upper hand. Yeah. Josh Erinson, ready for anything. And I know some people had their dogs dress up as Josh Halloween. Like, it's amazing. It's worth it. It's worth the, it's worth all the trouble. I got to take a financial advice from some of those dogs. That's right. Me too.

Adrian, thank you so much for spending time with us and sharing your insights on your career, man. It's been a great one. And we're so excited to see what you do next. Thanks a lot. Yeah, we'll do it again sometime. I appreciate you guys. Absolutely, dude. Take care. All right. All right. Be well.