The Watch - One Award After Another: Oscars Recap. Plus, ‘Paradise’ Season 2, Episodes 4-6.

Episode Date: March 16, 2026

Chris and Andy talk about the Oscars broadcast, the shared dominance of ‘One Battle After Another’ and ‘Sinners,’ and why this year's crop of films was so exciting (2:41). Later, they discuss ‘Paradise’ Season 2, Episodes 4-6 (52:30). Drivers wanted. Learn more at vw.com Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Additional Video Supervision: Jamie Yukich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio accepting on behalf of Sean Penn. It's Andy Greenwald. Did you hear where he was? Smoking?

Yes. In Ukraine? In Ukraine. That's like, is that rumor? Did that get confirmed? Who would confirm it, do you think? Zelensky. Oh.

That guy am here with Sean Penn. First of all, your accent game remains supreme. He, I believe he's been weirdly silent. He has been. Zelensky has. He's got a couple of things on his plea. He's like Sean Penn hanging out. He had Stel and Scars Guard on his ballot. So he's a little... It's good to see you, man. Oscar's Monday. The day after. You can feel a change in this town.

Finally, we can exhale. Andy Greenwald is right here. I'm Chris Ryan. This is the watch. You can email us at the watch at Spotify.com. You can follow us on Instagram at the watchpod underscore. Watch us on YouTube, ringer-tch TV channel and watch us on Spotify. We're also listening to us. We're going to talk about the Oscars today. We're going to talk about the winners. We're going to talk about the broadcast. We're also going to talk about Paradise. Another property of the Disney Hulu Empire, the umbrella. We got last night late, it was updated. The Jane episode went up. Yes.

One of us has seen that. And it might surprise you who. It's pretty thrilling. It's great. Don't tell them. No, don't tell them. You have to like, you think people would listen to 42 minutes of Oscar conversation just to find out which one of us watched last night's Paradise? That's like my children watching three and a half hours of the Oscars to see K-pop Demon Hunters perform. Do you what I mean? You don't put the one thing that

people are excited about at the top of the show. Bro, I feel bad for parents on the East Coast for last night. We're going to get to that. All right, so let's do some Oscars and then we'll get to Paradise later. Later this week, Pitt, Madison. Yeah. I might even talk about Marshall's brother. Wow. You really

riding with him into these... My guy Logan Marshall Green came back for his quarters. Wait, my old, I knew him years ago. Logan Marshall Green is on Marshalls? Yes. What do you think the Marshalls and Marshalls is about? Now I'm more interested.

And you're the Greens today for those watching on video. We did not, we're not covering DTF today. Perhaps we will revisit, you know? Do you want to save your thoughts on Rooster Ep2 for the end of the show? I'm waiting for everybody to see the conclusion, you know, where they find out that it's actually just dream in Bob Newhart's head. Let's talk about Oscars. This part of today's episode is brought to you by

Volkswagen. It's easy to sit back and follow the crowd, but all those award-winning actors and directors didn't get nominated for making work like everybody else. They took chances and pushed themselves to create something uniquely their own. This is your sign to do the same. From us, from VW and from the other drivers out there, take control, chase after your ambitions. Because honestly, what are you waiting for? Before we get into it, specifically, do you want to clear the air between us? Because it seemed like you walked in here and you were like, you felt like I was distancing myself from you. Well, this is just a phone one because sometimes you live text your reactions to any given pop cultural moment to me. And sometimes I come in and I'm blind and

this is one of those. I don't know. I'm like, I don't know if you thought it was a delightful broadcast. If you thought it was a tedious broadcast, if you thought Conan was incredible, if you thought Conan failed to meet the moment, tell me everything you felt. Let's start with the broadcast itself. Do you know who I was texting all night? Or do you want it? Because I was. live texting. Who? No, I was behind. I was watching it later.

You watched it, like you were 4 p.m. You were in your seat, ready to go west coast time. I was having more leisurely afternoon. So I didn't want to like... You didn't want to rush? No.

Okay. And you know what else? Do you know what else didn't want to rush? The Oscars. Oh, boy. I thought it got off to like a good tempo. Yeah. And there's just a lot of awards.

Yeah, but there were also moments when you felt like they could have seen it coming. Now, introducing a new Oscar is a big deal. And the casting award, people have been advocating it for a long time. I think it's an exciting addition. Okay, I don't know if it's an exciting addition, but I think it's a worthwhile and deserving addition to the broadcast. And of course, you want to highlight the fact that it's the first one. But do you think there was a moment in the booth when they realized that it had already been five minutes and Gwyneth hadn't started talking about her person yet, that they were like, oh, we misjudge this. You know, here's my thing about these.

I'm pro awards. I like the awards. Yes, you don't like the... I don't need as much interstitial stuff. I think we could do a rule where it's just like opening monologue, whatever bit you want to do then. I can imagine, you know, you need some pepper it a little bit over the course of the night.

But I'm really like, the awards are never the problem for me. It's really like the like, and now let's slam on the brakes and do something else. So you asked me about the broadcast. they didn't really do that this year, which I thought was good. For the most part, unless there's some trippy dance number I'm forgetting about, they didn't say, and now a movie's tribute to movies. Don't we love movies like they've been doing for the last 15 years?

Which I appreciate it. So they mostly got about their business, and it's not necessarily their fault that their business was delayed further by Thai, for example. Sure. They got that back when they gave... Sean Penn. K-pop Demon Hunters, it's a ward that they had been, like, holding for three and a half hours. And they just fucking kicked that guy off the stage.

That was wild. Yeah. My nine-year-old was like, that was the meanest thing I've ever seen. And she's been, her entire life is the Trump era. So who is the dude who got, the meanest thing she's ever seen. Who was the dude who couldn't speak, who didn't get his chance? We'll never know. Okay.

He's been scrubbed completely from existence. He doesn't even get an Oscar now. Yeah. So let's start with the beginning. Okay. What did you think of Conan this year? First of all, show starts and I was reminded

of my number one feeling which is I really wanted to try and watch weapons before this broadcast and I was like I guess it's about kids and a lady oh man you don't know what weapons is about at all at 2.38 a.m. a bunch of children go missing yeah and you know where I learned that

the poster so I am otherwise I am pure as snow are you the kind of person that the second the Oscars ends you're like those movies now have been consigned to the dustbin of history and I will never engage with them again? Or are you like, okay, weapons, like I should go see that now? The King's speech is still on my list.

I'm going to get them a circle back. Top of the cue. The artist. It's a good question, but weapons is something that I've been sucking myself up for. I feel like I should engage with some of the post-whitest kids you know, Uvra, you know, of the members of that sketch group. Of course. I should at least invest in one of their work.

So, no, I feel like this guy is an important, become an important. filmmaker and people love this movie. Will you be watching his Resident Evil adaptation when it comes out? I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. Look, I know. I was meaning like, are you enthusiastic for that IP? We're at war, man. Like, anything's on the table for me now. You can see that about anything now. I'm going to say it. So when I'm like, did you watch the Madison? You're like, we're at war. How dare you ask me to say? No, I have better things to do with my time. Thanks for listening. Okay, so the show starts and I am, I'm pro Conan. Yep. I thought that as a host, I thought his monologue was weaker this year in terms of just like,

here's a professional funny man who can read the room. But I thought his steady hand on the rudder and also his moves towards some moments of not solemnity, but of more seriousness, were very well appreciated. I thought those were very tonally appropriate for the moment, for the night, for the room. and I was grateful that he was doing it. Obviously, like, a tumultuous year for him personally, like for a variety of reasons. I think, you know, whether it's 12, 15 months,

but fires, losing parents, Rob Reiner, like, just a really, like, a lot going on. He seems like, you know, when I've watched his pod, he seems to be doing fine. But, like, I did note that went, like, you know, the three-quarter or almost towards the end of the show and he was just unaware that he was on camera and he was like almost there, almost there,

which could have just been nerves like we're almost done, but it almost seemed like he was like, I can't wait for this to be over in some ways. I don't think that was him. I think there were enough technical glitches that there may be a little bit of an internal audit about the direction and things. There was Melissa McCarthy's microphone.

There were other weird elements of sound where you could hear the room, but not the people on stage, and they were hastily. There was a weird whip pan where they cut someone in the audience, but the camera wasn't ready. And then, yeah,

And then it cut. There were a couple of explosions, not explosions, eruptions of applause or screaming that was unclear whether it was just like very excited nominees. Yeah, and Kimmel said something and was there just like a, Kimmel like mentioned something and there was like a huge, huge reaction? Yeah, it was about documentaries. And I think one of the nominee groups was very excited about it. And he was like, well, they won't invite you back if you keep interrupting. I think he was trying to be playful.

But there was, you add up all those things and there's kind of a feeling of loose chaos in the room, not in a fun. everyone's drunk at the Golden Globes and Tina Fey is making jokes sort of way. So when it cut to him and he didn't even know if he was on or not, I didn't put that on him. I think, I'm not putting it on him. I just meant like I couldn't tell whether that was a mass drop. I'm like, I'm ready for this to be over. It's a tough show. That said, I have seen other people point this out.

This is not like a unique take. But one thing that we have criticized hosts of these award shows in the past for is not actually being responsible to the audience past the point of their monologue. And so when Otama Raqpaal wins for cinematography for sinners, it's an exciting moment and a significant moment. And I think everyone in the room

understood the significance of the moment because a woman has never won best cinematographer at the Academy Awards before. I thought it was appropriate and good that Conan mentions that to the audience at home. Yeah.

That there's a reason for the extra ovation there. Sure. So I think he was invested and engaged. And then I also thought that a few of the big, like the Jane Lynch YouTube bit

was funny. And the closing bit, I don't know how many people stuck around for it after hour four or whatever it was. The lockjaw bit. Where he just does the end of one battle after another was pretty good. And did make me wonder,

did he have alternate endings planned for at least four or five of the Best Picture nominees? Or was this always the way the show was going to. Oh, like a sinners thing? Like, was he going to dance at Irish, like folk dance? If like... That's not the end of the movie I saw.

Is that when you turned off? Were you Dave Wasserman of sinners? I've seen enough. The Irish of won. The Irish win. That's incredible. Yeah, that's what I think a lot of criticism seems to be missing the Irish. Is your headline?

First of all, you're wearing common Irish W. You're wearing green head to toe. You're like between Jesse Buckley and Jack O'Connell. The AZAC today is in honor of Cooghs. Oh, that's good. In honor of Ryan Coogler. All right. It's not because Jesse Buckley and...

Jack O'Connell and sinners are the biggest winners of culture this year. That was fun. What did you think of the seemingly, I mean, they weren't arbitrary because they were actual anniversaries, but like, let's start at the end and work backwards. Eam Greger and Nicole Kidman, Moulon Rouge is not a big movie for me, so it took me like a solid 20 seconds to be like, is this a Moulon Rouge reunion? And then I kind of got the sense that maybe like they had to replace someone who dropped out because with all due respect to both of those people who I,

really like you and McGregor and Nicole Kibben's work generally. That doesn't feel like proportionate to the best picture. That was really weird. And so I was almost like, did Nolan get caught up like cutting Odyssey stuff? And so it couldn't come to present best pick. It was very strange. That was, is anyone in this room a Moulin Rouge head? Is that like, have you seen it, Kaya?

No, sorry. I've, I'm sorry, I've never seen that film. Yeah. You know what? I'm okay with that. It's below King's speech on my catch-up list. Yeah. Very odd and very minor.

It's like, it's like, now welcome Vin Diesel and Roda Mitchell from Chronicles of Riddick. Oh! But also, what was also weird about it was that they seemed, like when they just start singing as if this was some like moment we've been waiting for. Yeah. Very weird. Very strange. That was why I was almost like, did you guys, were you guys supposed to do best song or something? Like the other thing that I would say is I don't care about arbitrary anniversaries. sorry stereo gum

but the internet does the internet does but when they are charming funny people like most of the cast of bridesmaids where you take stereo gum a down a peg or two you know it's a brushback pitch you come with me again Brooklyn Vegan

you're next we don't mess around here we'll call people out if need be but they were great like having the bridesmaids women on stage was funny and at no point was I like ah the passage of time bridesmaids I was just like they are funny always, and I was happy to see them.

Do you know what I'm starting to wonder about Wig? Yeah. Because she's like undefeated at award shows. But it seems almost like the guy you only want to see at Bachelor parties. Do you know what I mean? It's like an amazing one-night thing, but you wouldn't really want to trust the whole wedding to him. Oh, in terms of like officiating the wedding in your metaphor. I could see, like, there was a point where I was just like,

how come Wig and Karel don't just host one of these things? because they have such great improvisatory skills with one another and great chemistry. And I wonder whether it's just because, and that's why Farrell hasn't done one of these words, it's just like, it would just turn into a long eastbound and downsing. You know, and I think that's right.

And people would be like, actually, this is a very solemn event. We're going to pay tribute to Robert Redfordon. I think that would be tough. I think that's right. Do you watch these rooting for people? I think it's a mix of rooting, sometimes rooting interest.

A lot of just like my weird anxiety, secondary anxiety for people not to fuck up. You know, like, I just don't want to see people get yanked off stage, go too long, do the things that are like kind of... Forget to thank their team. You hate that. I hate when they do that. I...

Gotta thank Gary. For what it's worth. Gotta thank Mark. These are guys? Yeah. Do you want to say more about them? Gary and Mark? You're your golf coach? I I mean, we probably should begin by saying that there was a little bit more intrigue than in some past years.

Yes. There was nothing, it was not as absolutely chalk as it's been the past few years, even though it did, I think, end up mostly aligning with what the savier prognosticators were predicting.

I think there was still a chance for enough upsets or wildcards to keep you leaning in. Well, this was a particularly long award season. I think it got, I mean, I've definitely seen more hostile awards campaigns, but I think by the end of it, it was like,

nothing good is going to come out of this lasting any longer. You know, like it was pretty much like whether it was pitting one battle against sitters or whether it was like the, the icarus flight of Timothy Shalameh. It seemed like we were, with the exception

of Jesse Buckley, like just going to kind of tear it apart if it went on any longer. That's the nature of the beast. But I do think if this had been February 1st, it seems like Shalemay would have won. That does seem true. You rarely actually...

I don't often give a lot of credence to the stories of sudden surges or surprise upsets. That does seem to be the case. Marty Supreme movie I loved dropped completely off any radar for winning things. And it does seem that it does weirdly seem like his blindside against ballet really hit him. I thought that happened after the voting was closed. I never fully understand when the voting happens. I'll say this about the long. long campaign.

There is a small case to be made that was on display last night that the brutally long just road that these movies all go on together international road of promotion and then BAFTAs

and then back and then all the different the various Guild Awards and things that it has forged almost perversely forged a sense of community and shared artist among a diverse group of creatives than might otherwise exist.

Like I did think, and obviously there are connections between people that we don't know about. Like people develop projects together. People meet on set. People are put in contact and have meetings, have lunches, have Sundance relationships.

Yeah, because Trir, Coogler and Chloe Zhao or did Sundance stuff together. Yeah, they're all Sundance bros. And there was a moment when Jesse Buckley won, I think the cameras caught Coogler coming over to give Chloe a hug. Yes.

And that stuff's great. And the relation, and I don't think it's corny, especially in the spirit of what Conan was saying, to want to see and want to cheer for not just Michael B. Jordan winning his first Oscar, but the moment afterwards that cameras caught later of him embracing Leo for a long time. And Leo talking to him and, like, well, in a sense, welcoming him in deservedly to a very exclusive club. Yeah. I like that. I like the relationship between these films that they can support each other and not do. what their publicity teams are doing, which is tear each other down.

That said, it's way too fucking long. And it becomes abstract to the point where it is about blood sport and competition and almost completely separated from the films themselves, many of which left theaters, if they were in theaters at all, half a year ago.

Yeah, that's the thing about this particular crop of movies is that sinners came out late last spring. One battle after another came out late last summer. Marty was in theaters from, like Christmas, but had been screening pretty widely for a while. What had the run-up in the film festivals?

It's tough. It's tough to be... In some ways, I think it's a testament to sinners in one battle after another that they were durable enough to texts

to support conversation for that long because I think if they had been maybe more traditional Hollywood fair like your king's speech kind of thing,

like a green book or whatever, we would have just like atomized it. It just would, I, I think what happened last night and we can get into the actual awards now

is a pretty decent and fair it's one battle after another's night and won six awards but I feel like the broadcast almost allowed it to be a co-winner night of sinners in one battle it did because I think that's right

you mentioned Autumn Arquapau's win and Coogler's win in both of those they pulled the Tom Cruise everybody stand. Yeah. Autumn had all the women in the audience stand. Cougler had everybody who worked on Cinder's stand.

And I thought it was like a good recognition. I always remember that Pulp Fiction win for screenplay when Tarantino was like, I think this is going to be the only thing I win tonight. Yep. And I think Cougler used original screenplay to be like, this is probably it. So let me do the real big.

I thought that was great. Yeah. And I thought MBJ winning was really cool. it probably is not my favorite of the performances that were nominated I think mine would probably be Leo or Wagamora but I also like Chalameh

I mean it was a really really really good category I liked Ethan Hawk a lot in Blue Moon so I thought each film got its moments and it was almost like for all the weird like who voted for what and the what do they call it when the ballots when you can rank ranked choice ballot or like because people get second

place votes or whatever. Right. Like New York City mayoral elections. It almost seemed like preordained where they were like, we're going to give sentimental value its moment. It shook out that way. We're going to give Amy Badigan a moment. We're going to give sinners a couple of moments, but OBAA is going to kind of be. I think that not to, I wouldn't, first of all, I wouldn't presume to be Sean Fantasy here. Did you see his costume work last night in the bathroom? It was really impressive. I want more of that from him. He's been a leading man up until now, but I think it's time to have a character actor bent. I think it's good. should step back from the spotlight.

No, I just think he should get a little weirder, you know? I think that's really good. Sean's pretty weird. I know, but his on the, he's... But I mean, like... He didn't get invited to interview Stephen Spielberg last week.

Because he's just a freak. Because he's a fucking freak show. Okay? That's not how Stephen gets down. Despite his belief in extraterrestrial life on the planet right now. I don't presume to be even worthy of a sixth chair on the big picture.

But I will say from my vantage point, a really remarkably good year for movies. in a very strong year for the nominees. You mentioned the five best actor nominees, all of whom are deserving of recognition, if not an award, and Jesse Plymonds didn't even make the cut. And that may have been my favorite performance of the year, definitely top three.

The Pagenae joint? Yeah. Damn. He's unreal in that movie. He's a freak show. He's great. But if you think about sinners, one battle after another, secret agent, sentimental value, I mean, I think these are, and Marty Supreme, I think these are like significant cinematic achievements.

that will last longer than this year or last longer than the king's speech. And particularly sinners in one battle after another, I know one battle after another is a loose adaptation of Thomas Pinchons, Vineland. Still reeling. I know.

I was waiting for it too. I was like doing this. Because you have to assume, like we talked about this. Yeah, he got it right. He knows how Pinchin. Nope. I was doing the Simpsons meme.

Say it. Say it the name. When you got up there, I knew he was going to get it right. these movies are so it is an adaptation but I think they are both wildly original cinematic expressions and visions and they are both very much of this moment and of this year and I think we'll remind us of the time in which they were released in a way that a lot of the last five six seven ten winners won't I think that's very I think that's exciting I think that's good for the medium in the same way that whether or not he was our favorite performance of the year or whether or not you and I would ever ever fucking see Hamnet. I think... I saw Hamlet. Look at you. Yeah. Yeah. I did my work.

Wow. Yeah. I was going to reach across the aisle there and be like, we stand in blockade of this. No. That's because we have different opinions about dead kids and movies. I love them. I know. I know. Why would I sound like Lockjaw? I love them. You like dead kids. We've all got our quirks. We're at war. We can express our differences in ways that don't shame each other, okay? That would be such a fucking amazing move fight. If you just started to be like, I'm sorry, we're at war.

That's why I didn't watch Hamnet. If I just started, this is my get out of everything free card for the next one to 16 years, I guess. I don't know. No Hamnet shade, I just didn't really, there was never a moment where I was like going to fire this up. What I was trying to say is Michael B. Jordan and Jesse Buckley are emerging stars and who are stars who have charisma and also acting chops. and that's also very cool to see. It is, I know this is sort of a fool's exercise to look back on past Oscar campaigns

where we sit here the next day and everyone talks about what it means and the significance and this was elevated over others, but it is kind of shocking to run back 10 years. Birdman won best picture? When's the last time you fired that up?

I have not. That has not made the rewatchables. Spotlight? Yeah, you know, I've... Spotlight and moonlight. Taking a couple runs around the newsroom with that one. The lights one. for a couple years.

And then we get into the shape of water and green book. Yeah. That's a real, like, I was talking last night with somebody about,

you know, I have not always been an Oscars fan. Right. There's like a whole run there, which I'll describe as late period Eastwood superiority, you know,

like the million dollar baby kind of run there where I was just like, oh, the Oscars are on tonight. You know, like, it was at that level.

Well, Like, did you have other plans? Yeah, just being like, it's Sunday night, New York City, let's go. It's selection Sunday. That's all I care about. Delante West and Amir Nelson's St. Joe's team. One seed, baby. Sorry, Clint.

So, I mean, it's not always been that, like, and Green Book and shape of water were definitely, like. I mean, that's not even, we didn't even say Nomad Land and Coda and everything everywhere all at once. There was. COVID was in there. Yeah. Not COVID. COVID didn't win any awesome. But I mean, there was the COVID Oscars, the Soderberg Union Station Oscars, you know.

You don't think COVID won anything? The COVID shut out. I think COVID arguably won the decade so far in terms of being a story. That's right. Anyway, yeah. So what other specific ones should we talk about? Like I wonder whether or not the scale or the proportions of OBAA and sinners would have felt differently if Pet had been there. Because really, it was the editing. casting OBA and then it was PTA for the most part speaking on behalf of the film it was in you know if they

if it had if Sean Penn had been there for better or for worse yeah because he might have gone up there and been like incredibly gregarious and like you know humble and he's not not humble but or he might have gotten up there just just with a dart in his hand and just or been like let I don't know if you guys have heard there's war happening yeah you know that's yet another thing he and I have in common. Which I think really only Bardam directly referenced. Yeah, there was a lot of, I thought, clever and delicate dancing around it and everyone knew what we were talking about without talking

about it. I think the Sean Penn thing is tough because the Oscars rarely deliver merit at the right time. And it's, you know, it's the multiple winners, there are some that you can quibble with, But others, especially people like Sean Penn who have won over decades, it's like you're not taking, maybe you take away the one that Bill Murray should have won for Lawson's translation,

the Mystic River one. But otherwise, like, the Lockjaw is one of the most incredible cinematic creations of the last however many years. Yeah. He deserves awards and recognition for it. But it's a kind of a bummer that he won

because he's won before, because he wasn't even there and you don't even get the speech. And because I had Stellan in my Oscar pool, just like, Latimer Zillinsky. Did you have an Oscar pool? No.

want. Did you want Stelan Scarsgaard to win? I did, just because that's my favorite movie of the year, and I think he's incredible. I should own up to the fact that I rarely, I don't know if I've ever made predictions on this podcast, but I did sit here and say that I thought Sinners was going to have a late surge and sweep, and that did not happen. You know I'm all about accountability. So, yeah, the Sean Penn thing was kind of a bummer, I guess, in that case. But otherwise, oh, the casting I wanted to talk about,

only because it's funny that in its first year, and there's nothing wrong with the casting of one battle after another, it's the best picture of the year, according to many, including the Academy, ergo it was pretty well cast. But I feel like that award, the spirit of that award, was invented for movies like Marty Supreme and Secret Agent, both of whom were nominated. I know what you mean.

I will say that I do feel like when Bluto comes to the door in one battle after another, He's just like, are you cool? And Blue is just like, yeah. Like, finding that kid. Like, they found people that... No, it's incredibly cast. But I know what you mean

where it's just like the faces in Marty Supreme or like, how the hell did you do that? And so much of it. And obviously a lot of this comes from Josh Safdi himself. But, like, many, if not most of the parts in that movie are played by non-professional actors. And that ability to, like, identify someone who can deliver this specific brief on camera

is really, really challenging. And Secret Agent, which we haven't talked much about, but I know we both really liked. For sure. Just stunning, production design and how every single person looks unique and memorable and period and is as transporting as the scenery and the vibe. Just the way that they look.

It's just incredible. But, yeah, I always like when screenplay awards are kind of like shadow. They're the real best pictures. But this time it kind of, it just tracked. So for screenplay, you would have, was Trier nominated for screenplay? Yeah, he was for original. But I thought, like you said, like...

He didn't adapt that from World War II. What's that? Was it adapted from World War II in some ways? Or from all screenplays? In a way. Speaking of World War II, I did like when Paradise Star, Sterling K. Brown did the Casablanca bit with Conan. Yes.

And was like, was that the Hitler one? That was good. Do you think it was a meta, cruel joke commentary on the state of our business that the screenplay awards were given by Downey and Chris Evans just like, well, just find it in posting their way through an absolutely putrid non-joke bit promoting an Avengers movie? There were a couple of tough bits. That was tough. Yeah, I mean, I don't have a problem. I think that you would never go wrong with reference. If you just have people come out who are like, I am here because.

because of great screenplays. You know, here are some of my favorites. Here's some of my favorite lines, whatever. Let's get into it. I just think that they overcook the pie by 10 degrees and 10 minutes almost every time. And there's always going to be some person who comes out and is like, what the fuck are we announcing tonight?

And it's just like, damn it, dude, you're Robert Danny Jr. Like, you're pretty much Jack Nicholson. Yeah. Like, you're the closest thing we have. You should be giving out best picture. You should be the mayor of this. But it doesn't seem like they can kind of rely on. you to just be like read the fucking prompter for to some extent he has been i would say encouraged

sure to do this and has been enriched beyond measure and so it would be hard to stop him now um i was just for a second there i forgot and i was like what's that guy up to now i was i go yeah who bob bobby downs yeah dr doom man um we would be remiss if we didn't talk about the fact that the in many ways the most memorable and the most crafted and the most intentional part of a show ostensibly celebrating the living art of cinema was the in-memorium segment. And it was, honestly, it was a sledgehammer. It was devastating, I thought, to watch. And pretty remarkable. Babs? Well, I want to get to that. We got to get to that. I thought that the Rob Reiner thing was really, really moving. And that was expected.

but I couldn't believe the amount of people that showed up for him. Sure. Like, to get all these people, some of whom, like, John Cusack doesn't do events. He doesn't come to Los Angeles, as far as I could tell.

He just sort of hangs out in Chicago and has strong opinions about stuff. He, which, by the way, sounds like a podcaster and a sick gig. He flew out just to stand on stage for a second, you know, to be a part of this. I thought that was as much a testament to someone's ability to be a good person

as well as a good artist as anything else you could ever see in an award show like this. I really liked the way it was designed. So it went from music. Was it the Princess Pride music they were playing? There was music from a Rob Reiner movie that went into the images and the montage of people. And then they paused for Diane Keaton, but in a very classy way with Rachel McAdams also made it about Claudia Cardinali and Diane Ladd.

Diane Ladd. And I thought that was incredibly moving. And it's just like it, I know this is one of the tolls of getting older when people who are always there for you artistically and just like in the crowd of these events, they start showing up on the screen instead of in the seats. For sure. And that's just where we're headed as humans. But it really hit hard this year. And then of course it had to, I think, end with Redford. And I thought it was, I guess I got the sense that, he would have enjoyed having Babs do it. I think that a hallmark of Babs is it's going to be about Babs. Sure.

So I had that kind of break screeched a little bit for me in terms of like this beautiful swelling moment that the whole show was built around. And then she's saying. Speaking of beautiful screeching moments that brought the whole show to a halt. You know, I got to say I don't really have an opinion about her music. That's where you draw the line. Your entire career is having takes. It's a musical performer I have a zero relationship with.

Right. Yeah. And I feel weird about that. You know what I mean? Like there are transformers that I know more about than Barbara Streisand's discography. Name your top three. I mean, I've always been a Megatron guy. I just think it's a cool name.

And you like his worldview. Is that, you like his politics? It's a cool name. Megatron is the fucking. sickest name. It is. It is. Yeah. And you know what? Here's another thing. Just a little fun side note. Among the many reasons why I'm never quitting Facebook is one of the stories that was given to me randomly, almost as if it was predicting this in exchange, was it was like, happy birthday to Marvel editor Bob Budiansky, who on this day in 1982 named Megatron. And then bestow that

onto the greatest wide receiver of my lifetime, Calvin Johnson. Correct. And received, I would imagine, nothing for it, but, you know. You know what you were talking about? This is not germane to the Oscars. You know how you're like, oh, and you start seeing people in the memoriam that you've grown up with? I am now realizing that the Instagram montages of like,

you know who was a problem, Julio Jones. Those guys their careers have happened while I've been watching football. No, their careers have happened since you moved to Los Angeles. Their careers have happened since you started the ringer. No, like, And they also now are really, what's really big is showing early 21st century

lineup announcements from tournament games. Oh. And so like, I want like, Dewan Blair's pit team. And I'm like, damn, I witnessed the entirety of Dewan Blair's career.

Like in my 30s. We should, there should be, you know, like, you know, the projects where like they go to interview survivors and they're like, we need to record your memories,

you know, before this generation passes, so future generations will know what, like, you know, horrific war crimes were like. Like, someone should come to your house and be like, Chris, Chris, tell us about Tuan Blair's...

And I think DeWan Biffler was a problem. This is a beautiful take because you actually have no problem here. Okay, so Megatron was number one, or should we move on? Let's go back to Barber Strisean and the beautiful tribute they paid to the people's lives and work.

What about Shockwave? He had little cassettes that played in him. Oh, he was cool. Was he racist? Well, he had some problematic tweets. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

But you have to think about it with a lot of these transformers. I just couldn't remember Shockwave was like, hey, brother, like, let's listen to rap. Keep going. Keep going. Do you know what I mean? Like, it was like an 80s cartoon. Oh, I thought you meant. First of all, you have to understand that in the 80s, the culture was different.

You know what I mean? I was there. Toys, you and. Dewan Blair, wasn't even born yet. And you were there. Oh, I see what you mean. Like the commercials and things were like trying, right? Yeah.

I don't think that was racist that Shockwave was trying to. I think, see, again, this is the problem with a modern mindset with like these, these like Gen Z types. The problem with Shockwave is he was trying to enslave the human race on behalf of the Decepticons. I don't really, I'm sorry. That was an appropriation wasn't the problem. I'm not the hassle that he didn't acknowledge who originally owned the land he was standing on. Like the problem was what he was actually doing in the moment. All right, I'm going to let you lay out of that.

So he liked a few tweets. K-pop. Right. I'm very happy for K-pop Demon Hunter's success. This is like a hostage video. Is there a gun to your head? No. Okay.

I think if you're going to basically hold the entire awards show hostage to see these folks perform Golden, is that the name of the song? You know that's the name of the song. Is it? Yeah. And then it's inevitable that they're going to win the award for best song. Mm-hmm. To cut that dude off is criminal. It's like, is there anyone directing the show?

Is there anyone who could just be like, don't start the band? Like, let this guy talk. There's seven people on stage. Obviously, she's going to do the big speech, but like, come on. It was very, very cruel. And it's also not their fault that the show was running along up to that point. And they decided to just bring the hammer down on him. Right.

And that's when you start thinking, like, oh, they have time for all these other bits, but they don't have time for this. Yeah, I felt bad. But I don't have anything to add other than, like, it is a pretty remarkable success story for a movie that Sony was, it's not that it was ever problematic, but Sony wasn't sure what to do with it or what its upside was. So they offloaded it to Netflix, and it became the biggest movie in the history of Netflix. And such a big movie and such a surprise that it took Netflix almost a full calendar year to get the deals done for there to be a sequel. That just got announced last week. And which means the sequel won't come out for years.

four or five years and then all those kids who've grown up on Cape Top Denham hunters they're going to be they're going to be in their 20s God and they will never even

have heard of Dewan Blair just no we'll do the work we'll make sure they know you'll do the work for the next generation that you also gives you a four or five year window to watch Kpop demon hunters that's true that's true

any other awards that you wanted to hit do you remember ever seeing a tie I read this morning that it has happened before a couple of times. I don't know why he didn't announce and these are the other people that also... Drama, drama.

For best short? I agree. There wasn't a ton of drama there. Can you imagine if they tried to pull that with, like, actor? And they were like, but first, Michael B. Jordan will accept his award. Yeah, but then they should have kept the other people on screen the whole time

just watching the entire time. I think that would have been excellent. This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. It could be hard. hard to do your own thing when everyone else is following everyone else, but that's what some of the best films are about, an outcast striving to make their own way in the world. And this is your sign to be that outcast. From us, from VW, from the other outcasts out there, take a chance. Make the most of every day. And don't be afraid to veer off course every now and then, because if you

don't do it now, then when? Learn more at VW.com. I guess the only other thing to discuss, is Paul Thomas Anderson, a enormously important figure for our adult film-going lives, didn't just get his flowers, he got the whole bouquet. That was exciting, and also, like I sort of alluded to this a moment ago,

kind of rare to see, I was thinking about how David Lynch got an honorary one. You think about how Tarantino got two screenplay awards, and obviously as directed actors into Oscars in the past. But for him to have this,

this career, I mean, his career is still very much ongoing, but this career capping moment with such an unambiguous triumph, winning, writing, directing, and picture, and being relatively in his prime to accept it all and reflect on it, I thought that was really special. When he won adapted screenplay and got up on stage and he said, you make a guy work pretty hard to get one of these, I thought that that was in and of itself, like, a pretty good advertisement for what it means.

You know, like, you can be too cool for school, and you can be like, I'm not going, or you could be like it doesn't really matter who remembers these things. But I think in the moment and for the people who have put so much blood, sweat and tears into making films and sometimes not under like, you know, Paul Thomas Anderson's movies are often kind of supported by like the luminaries who decide to be in them. Yes. But like are not necessarily commercial gambits up until a point. Movies.

It was just pretty, it was pretty cool. As a longtime fan of his work, it was pretty amazing. Movies and Oscars and movie makers and Oscars is a different relationship than something like TV creators and the Emmys. Like, Oscars have always had, deservedly so, this patina of importance and reverence and history. And you can't really be too cool for school with that. Like all of these people in that room, no matter what type of movie they make, whether it's weapons or a short or the type of movies that were inspiring PTA to do the work that he does, they watch the Oscars. and they revere movies that have won them in the past. And so to actually have that moment,

I think it would be impossible for it not to feel like a dream or an incredible capstone. When he was up on stage for the second or third time, I was still thinking about Andy Jurgensen, who won editing for one battle after another. Yes. And I thought his speech was really, really beautiful because he said his thank you.

And he thanked his aunt, who he said was an archivist at the academy and was the person who taught him about movies and showed him movies and gave him this library and this sense of history and artistry. And anytime you can do that, especially in an award show where you can connect time

through people who have done the work in different ways and different, you know, but all in pursuit of the same kind of artistic joy and celebration is really moving and meaningful. He talked about one battle after another in a way today and I'm sure he's done this in other interviews

and, you know, I'm in no way telling him how to speak about his own work. But I was almost like a little bit frustrated by the fact that he put a kind of like a little bit of a bow on the movie. It was like, this movie is about our failures as a generation to leave the world in a better place and the hope that the next generation. And I get that. And maybe, maybe this is somewhat colored by reading Vineland and taking a much, different message from Vineland. Yeah.

But I kind of wanted him to be like, it's not up to me or it's not my responsibility to explain one battle after another to people so that they feel good about voting for it. Do you know what I mean? Totally.

And there's a case to be made that it's like really the last 10 minutes of one battle after another that like really thread the needle on that, that idea of like, it's American girl, it's about, it's about her, it's about this. And he said that as well, which is not necessarily my takeaway. Yeah. I think that's a very smart point to make. And it goes back to our criticism of the long

award season, because one of the things that the long award season does is it just leeches away the electricity and the energy and the enthusiasm and the chance of unpredictability and surprise, not just about the awards, but about how the people who have been campaigning for them and giving speeches and thanking, talk about them. Sure. It reduces them into, this is a movie about hope for the future, when in fact, what I think makes it worthy of the best picture Oscar is how riotously messy it is at times and how parts of that movie don't work, but then you just keep going to the next part and you're completely

you're being driven over that very, very bumpy road by a guy who knows where he's going. Sure. And you're excited to be in the car. I totally agree with that. I mean, I think that said, we joked about it a lot over the last few months when and if I saw a movie to talk about it with you. But the hashtag girl dad thing in a lot of these movies

is relevant and interesting, that it is a lot of filmmakers at a certain point in their life wrestling with the world as it is and what it means to try and have hope for it. Like what Conan said, would try it for the next generations. And that's sentimental value. That's Marty Supreme. That's one battle after another.

that actually is secret agent too, even though it is very much about a specific moment in the past, but it has that same sort of generational trauma and what we owe to people and how we keep going. Wagner? Oh, in the movie.

That's true. That's why I didn't initially name it. I was deeply less interested or moved by it in terms of its hope for the future. I find all that stuff kind of interesting. And when you said what PTA talked about, when he thought there was a chance

that was his only speech, the first one. So he talked about his kids. Pugler was very aware that, like, odds are, this is the last one I win tonight, so I'm going to go up and I'm going to do the whole thing. I'm going to say, sorry for being away to my kids and all that stuff, yeah. But PTA also thanked his kids, I believe, the first time he went up. And I thought, Yochim Trier, you know, he ended with the Baldwin quote about it's the responsibility of adults to care for all children,

whether they know, whether they root for Megatron or whether they root for Dewan Williams, whomever. Dewan Blair. Dewan, oh, sorry. Yeah, come on. This is power forward for Pitt? Was he the one who didn't have knee cartilage anymore? Who am I thinking of?

The guy that the Spurs drafted. I think that was Dewan Blair. I think it was too. I just want you to know that I saw his medicals, and they scared me off. But shout out to R.C. Buford and Coach Pop for seeing past that. And seeing what you saw. You know, it's your responsibility to parent these kids too.

There's intangibles. There are. You can't find them on a scan. There are. It was a, I mean, it was cool, and I would imagine as a, cinephile and, you know, rewatchable's guy that, like, when PTA was like, here's the lineup from

1975, and it was one floor of the cuckoo's nest, Barryland and Dog Day afternoon, Jaws, in Nashville. Yeah. That's, we used to be a society. Yeah, and I also think that people will watch the movies from this year, hopefully long into the future, including a bunch of movies that didn't get recognition from this year, you know? And

I do think that having 10 nominees is at once, I think, deflating for the that are really have no shot. But it is also good to keep those movies in circulation, to have other nominees, maybe the frontrunners say,

like, boy, I'm such a huge fan of Secret Agent, boy, I'm such a huge fan of, it was just an accident, whatever, you know what I mean, talking about even F1. And just keeping those movies in circulation, this actually leads into my last question, which is you have a big night for OB, AA, Big Night for Sinners,

a nice award for weapons, all Warner Brothers movies. Yeah. Don't believe David Ellison was in attendance. He was in Ukraine with John Penn. On the other side. Damn. It's so fast, though.

You're not going to be able to answer this because time will tell. Yeah. Do you walk out of here? See, we can make these original stories. They can be box office successful box office movies regardless of the reporting about what they're

fucking budget. it's for $200 million, $400 million, like whatever it is of these movies made in domestic box office is really good. Marty Supreme, I think, made $100 million. These original films are finding an audience. There is research to suggest that a younger generation of people are enjoying going to the movies.

I do think we are not exiting, but in some kind of twilight of the over-IP franchise period of storytelling in Hollywood. but do you leap out of this Oscars into a great unknown of like, is there going to be Hollywood in three years? Or are you like, they should look at this and be like, yeah, more of that. Let Mike and Pam cook. Truly, though.

I mean, again, this is not, I'm not, we're not the people that like really do the deep forensic dive as to why Mike and Pam at Warner Brothers had this absolutely generational run over the course of this year when their jobs were very much in jeopardy. But you could look at the fact that they felt either empowered or desperate enough or just, you know, fearless enough to take... You see, they're not risky swings. They were considered swings. Do you know what I mean? Like the sinners, like Ryan Coogler developed sinners, from what I understand, and took it to market.

And was like, here are my terms to make this movie with you. And Warner Brothers said, we accept, even though the terms were very filmmaker-friendly. President-breaking. President breaking. He owns the print, basically, right? In 25 years, yeah. We'll revert to him. And that was a deal that they had to be willing to take. PTA is beloved by people who look exactly like us,

and that hasn't always translated into enormous box office success. And this was always going to be the most expensive movie of his career. So the play for this movie had to be what happened last night. That was the path to get this movie to being not just a profitability, but to making it quote unquote worth it. Got it done. And the weapons thing is, you know, taking a swing on,

a cheaper movie, but someone who you believe in who can deliver in a genre that tends to overperform at the box office, I think that the difference between that and what other studios do, which is just either blind IP chasing or making swings,

but kind of thoughtless ones. I don't even see the path or I don't even understand the road that I'm trying to put this movie on. Not all movies, especially now. This is always the case, but there isn't just, we're so far removed from that,

well, we'll start it small in the Midwest and we'll slowly platform it out. Like every movie's gonna have a unique path towards finding its audience, but there are paths. And I think that's kind of exciting and hopeful. And the scariest thing about it isn't that the people who are taking over Paramount,

who have taken over Paramount, who might be taking over Warner Brothers, they're going to be smart, thoughtful, film-loving, film-educated people working and making those decisions there as well. There's no question about that. But the company, the combined company, is going to be so massively in debt that will they be able to shout out over everyone else saying the only thing we can bank on as a path to profitability is... Megatron the movie. is Megatron's, no, Megatron at Hogwarts, the trilogy. You know what I mean?

Like, that's trickier. When Shockwave came to Hogwarts, introduced them all to wrap. First of all, I'm sorry to rain on your parade, but I think everybody knows Muggle technology doesn't work. At Hogwarts, you couldn't bring a radio, it just wouldn't work, you know? Oh, it's like an EMP went off? It's like an EMP, but the M stands for magic. Should we get to Paradise then? You have any other questions or do you want to wait for next year?

I'll wait. Oh, wait. Why did you plan on talking about Harry Potter next year? I plan on talking about it today, but I guess you want to move along. Thank you, Oscars. Thank you, Oscars. Listen to Sean and Amanda talk about it too. Absolutely. That part of today's episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. A lot of these films, what makes them so great is seeing a character who is driven to achieve what they want.

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Terms apply. Let's talk a little bit about Paradise. I have to admit, I thought that the newest episode of Paradise went up tonight at 9 p.m. Tonight being Monday. Tonight being Monday. So I'm sorry for being slightly unprepared. Although, and you know what the problem with Paradise is like,

you could think you have a handle on it. God damn it, if the last five minutes, those episodes, they twist it up. Bit of a twist. So we're going to talk a little bit about episode four, five. And I guess we could talk a little bit about. about six, right? Because that's Jane. That's Jane. Let's talk a little bit about, and here's the thing about Paradise. If you're not, quote, unquote, up to date, it's just really hard to talk about

this show without spoiling certain things. Or sounding insane. Or sounding completely out of your mind. So let's say up front, spoilers. Yeah. And feel free to spoil Jane. I think it's okay. That's fine. Okay. Thank you. Spoilers through last night's episode of Paradise, but we're going to be focusing mostly on four and five. I just have to, Kai, are you okay if I spoiled Jane? Jane, the sixth episode of the second season of paradise? Is that Shailene Woodley's character? No. No.

She's Annie. No. Okay. Then clearly it's fine. Okay. We're going to spoil that too, though. I just like to think about everyone else in the room. Okay.

Spoilers, spoiler, spoilers. Let's start with RIP, Annie. Yes. Shailene Woodley, here for a bad time, not a long time. Kind of a little bit of an extended Kyle Chandler vacation on this show. Mm-hmm. For folks who don't know what I'm referring to. You're spoiling Lant.

No, I'm spoiling. Another show. Friday Night Lights. Where a big time actor is like, oh shit, Shailene Woodley's in this movie. Is it Shailene or Shilene? I've never said it out loud before. Shaline. Shailene.

That's what I thought. This is why we need Kai's voice in our ears. Or you just could listen to me because I said Shailene. It's Barry Keogun. She shows up on this show and I'm like, cool. Maybe this is like what Paradise will do is as it goes. gets bigger and bigger. It will have, you know,

guest star of the season join and perhaps they will stay sick around or perhaps not. Shailin Woodley's on this show for two episodes. Graceland, the first episode, and then this fourth, and then the fourth episode

where she, you know, hangs out with Xavier. She's in the other episodes, but they are, but briefly, like at the end of two, the Xavier plot line and the Annie plotline. I mean...

We mean a showcase. Showcase. Her story. Okay. I'll allow it. They shot her out. They, like, they, I'm sure they,

did that and forgive me it's just that we're at war so i want to get all the details right you know it's just like maybe at a less yeah partisan time we could just gloss over details what if then my response would be like um maybe you as a podcaster yes should support me yes as the secretary of podcast oh yeah i think that would be great except i like it have you seen his press conferences they're great he's out of his fucking mind yeah yeah who who could have predicted that Some people just wilt under pressure What was I saying? She is no longer with with with with with us because she dies at the end of the fourth episode

Yeah, but what a run and I thought she brought something How do I say this nicely? Sometimes when I'm watching Paradise There are people on Paradise where I'm like You never seen this person before They seem like a TV actor yeah And then Shailie Moody is like kind of more of a star you know what I mean? I thought she had a little bit more energy around her performance and a little bit more, like, charisma and a little bit more magnetic kind of vibes.

But what did you think of, like, her storyline ending midseason? I think that the show's commitment to its core principles of speed, story, and surprise are unmatched. And as we say every time we talk about this show, you cannot and should not compare this to a prestige HBO drama or even a prestige HBO procedural. This is even more so than the pit. Like this is an inheritor of a very specific strain

of serialized broadcast storytelling. This is us. Like Dan Fogelman, it's very similar DNA pitched in a different type of genre. and I can't help, but maybe, and maybe like the first season, I think we joked about it more about how absolutely bad shit a lot of the developments were in the way that they were revealed. I found the storytelling this season to be more emotionally consistent and engaging than the first season. I also realized, especially after the episode that just aired,

I find the outside world just a more compelling storyline than the inside silo world. Whereas the first season that maybe I would have been shaking my head that a, like, 90 seconds of screen time establishing Annie's relationship with her mother and her backstory, is that really enough for us to understand how she survives three plus years alone in Graceland and then gets pregnant and lives alone more and then goes outside and then, you know, doesn't go with her baby daddy to Colorado because of her trust issues, but then learns to trust as she dies in a diner. Like, that's an impossible calculation to earn all of that story.

Second season, I'm like, well, it's kind of just like minimalism at its finest, which is a weird thing to say about a show that is so maximalist in its aims. It does everything so, so efficiently. And so, like, the show moves so fast at no point until doing this podcast with you. Am I like, it's remarkable that Gary packed changes of clothes and also showers and hair and makeup in that bunker. Right. That's not what we're doing here, people. So, long way to say, it works. the way that the first season unfolded

and you're right about identifying the difference between what it was like in the bunker versus what it's like outside of the bunker. There was like a Truman Show element of unreality, especially that first episode, but a lot of it was the Sinatra character's elliptical way of talking because they were trying to hold off on revealing

who she was, what's going on in the bunker, and then also what had happened outside of the bunker and why people are the way they are. and that was a kind of almost the entire season-long gambit of like, I don't think when you finally get to the episode that really turned us onto the show, which is seven, which is the real end of the world episode, that's when you find out about the EMP and the nukes and all the stuff that happened.

I also, we should have led with this. I honestly don't retain any information. I watch every show just like a happy baby seeing Telatubbies for the first time. Like, this is the only show. Is that because there's a world? or just because... I'm glad you're finally becoming aware of it. Yeah.

It's not just business as usual for you. No, this is the only show that I religiously watch the recap without skipping. Because you're like, oh, right. Oh, sure. But also... Wildcat hit that EMP. They were like, don't do it. Put the card.

But I also, I know this seems counterintuitive, but like, I kind of celebrate that. Sure. That I just, okay, sure. Now we're zagging. Let's go. It's Mr. Short-term memory is like, what? Yes. truer than you realize.

The way that revelations have kind of been doled out over the course of this season, not only because we've watched now like multiple characters go through the last day on Earth society, last day of society multiple times now,

I think also take the Mailman episode, which was the last week's episode, which is kind of paradise, maybe not at its best, but at its most paradise, in so much as introduces a very kind-seeming character you are like, okay, so this is going to be a new member of like the kind of good guy gang to the extent that there is one.

And do you recognize who this actor is? No. Playing Gary. Cameron Britton, who we adored. Oh, for fucking Mind Hunter. Playing Kemp, that was the name, Ed Kemper and Mind Hunter. Wow. That's sick.

Yeah. Good for him. He's incredibly good actor. And the entire time, you're like, this guy has like a sweetness to him. That's really, really nice. Gentle. As it gets further into the episode, you're like, that's interesting.

And it's interesting that he's like, I'm in love with Terry, but like really, actually in love with her, not just like I love her from afar. And as you get to the final twist, which is not that Ennis has betrayed everybody, but that the mailman isn't Gary,

the mailman has in fact kind of lost it at the end and killed Ennis. And maybe Terry is not with the ochre seed coffee drinking militia. Or that she wasn't taken by them. Yeah. It's a good twist. And it's nice to have it compact within the episode rather than be like

in two or three episodes of the season twist is that the mailman is bad. It's funny. Well, I don't know if it's funny. It's fun, I think, to have been watching television a certain way long enough to see the game change. Like in the same way that

like an offensive court, or like Vic Fangio is just like ah, now I need to, now this is what offenses are doing because they're highlighting inefficiencies and now I must change what I do to counteract it. And the example we always use for years in the podcast, if you're drinking, if this is a drinking game, drink is John Landgraf at FX being like, oh, the miniseries. People have given up on that. And then he leaned into that world and it worked out really well for them. One of the things about the kind of the slowing down of television over the last 20 years, you know, we can tell every part of every story and we can really drill into

these people's lives has been a kind of, it's not we've become less vigilant watchers, it's that we've been told that sometimes now there is room for moments in scenes that aren't crucial building blocks of plot, that you could have a moment that could be more about how the characters respond to, reflect on it, and grow. The example I'm talking about is in episode five when Gary misreads the moment, when he's built a radio, so, Harry could reach out, could try to contact Xavier, and he goes in for a kiss,

and she's like, I can't, no. An old-school TV watcher watching bang, bang, week to week, 22 episodes is like, that's the most important thing that this scene is telling us. This guy doesn't get it. This guy wants something

he's never going to get. My dumb-ass HBO brain is just like, oh, there's nuance to this. He wanted something, but he could express something else, when in fact, there are no wasted moments in paradise

because it moves too fucking fact. That's what I'm saying. It's like every single thing that happens in paradise is actually worth paying attention to. Yes. Or not at all, and you'll just find out, you can watch it in two different ways. When you go back and look at the Mailman episode,

in fact, the reason why you didn't think that that was an inappropriate and red flag moment for that guy is because Ennis is set up as the bad version of Gary. Right. So the guy in the Georgia Tech hat who's bossing everybody around and has been like waiting all his life for the prepper moment and doesn't want anyone to leave.

And staring at one of the women that he, brought into the bunker in a menacing way. Everything that Gary is saying that Ennis is, in fact, what Gary is. He doesn't want people to leave. He wants to be with Terry. He's never had, he doesn't have anyone that he would have saved before then. And in fact, now in retrospect, if I was like, damn, Gary and Terry really got along that way, they did not.

I don't know that Terry would characterize Gary as her best friend and her partner for the last five years. She might have just been like, that was a dude I was in a bunker with. That's cold. I mean, again, And last week, I, you know, this is not surprising, there was a little bit of a drive-by on Last of Us. And I think what I was trying to express that I appreciated about Paradise in the moments it has, which are not very many, towards sketching out different ways of dealing with an apocalypse,

I'm here for one where people come together and make it work. Like that is also a zag from what we've seen for... Instead of having like, yeah, skin-eating colonies. Inevitable breakdown of everything. That said, the ability of the show, or maybe the willingness of the show, or is it the necessity of the show, to yada, yada, just giant swaths of potentially interesting material, is remarkable and feels different. Now, the other thing about a Dan Fogelman show is that the past is never passed. Like, they can always revisit, remind. I mean, James Marzen is still kicking around in the show, and his character dies in the pilot, I believe.

So there's still, there's always stuff to unpack. That was also the essential back. bone of this is us. We're just jumping through time and we understand that some characters are no longer with us, but there's still history to learn from there. We're all going to be in this room. The world has ended for three weeks. And then it's just like, we're out. Now we've got chickens. And I'm like, I just feel like a couple, probably a couple more speed bumps than we realize, including the fact that they brought in a young child who remarkably doesn't age. Yeah, Bean. That is. Well, it's only even three weeks. Yeah, but then it's

three years. Oh, right. Well, we haven't seen what Bean looks like. We just see that Bean saw... Yeah, but that was a week ago. That wasn't three years ago. Okay. Unless they recast him.

Is there any Gary... Is there any Gary Bean-Terry stuff in the Jane episode? Oh. Well, I believe we see... I could be wrong, because I did watch them back to back. But I believe that when Gary turns on... Ennis? Ennis.

bean season. That's at the end of the email episode. Yeah, but that is essentially the present moment. That's like two weeks before Xavier arrives. And bean is still...

Now, maybe what the show is actually telling us that a three years of canned beans does not support... The Fountain of Youth. Bone growth. You know what I mean?

Maybe it is a subtle dig in a vegan diet. Maybe that's what it's saying. I don't know. Okay. But that was a tough one to sort of plot around. Everyone just looks

amazing after their three years in the bunker. Just ready to like start new lives. And it's like nobody seems that bummed out about the end of civilization. I mean, if you were in the bunker and you could tell stories about the NCAA tournaments of the early 2000s, that would get me through the first three weeks. That was when Kansas had Keith Langford. Like what if the other version of Paradise is like you invite the six people who can help restart society and you have a nurse and a mechanic?

And then, you know, and they were getting loose. the end. It was just like she likes mushrooms. She likes mushrooms. And then you also bring in the guy that has like raging sleep apnea into the small room. Like, is that the moment when you're like, there is one flaw in my plan?

That's a tight space, man. But I guess there was a shower. I'm actually curious. I'm going to ask you. Because honestly, Jane's a little bit of a mystery to me. Yeah. What motivates her? What animates her? What's her trauma? The one thing that I am, I don't know, the one thing I'm curious about, the beauty

of the show and the reason why we enjoy covering it is it could literally do anything at any moment. And I think that's, well, that's crazy. That's fun. And I definitely like the show more this season. And thinking about it, it's almost entirely because of the Annie and Xavier out in the world stuff. I think that's been more emotionally compelling. It's more interesting. It's more exciting. And like I was saying, it presents just a different way to tell an apocalyptic story. And at this point, that's as refreshing as anything else. Sure. I would say that the episode that you have yet to see is the weakest of the season so far, in my opinion,

because Jane, no disrespect towards the actress, who we should shout out, Nicole Briden Bloom, if you're going to cast a Willoughy 30-year-old as a savage unhinged killer, she's doing a pretty good job. It's a tough beat, but she's handling it well. And she shot Snotra in the chest at the end of the first season.

Yes. But now still works for Sinatra. Sinatra knows. Sorry, I just spoiled the episode. Oh, right. She was like Sinatra. Do you remember? And she does remember. Okay. She tells her I remember, but she's like, that's why I'm keeping you close. Because you shot me. You shot me. That's what the secret to ours.

I know. But all this is to say, like, the excesses of season one, which was just twist on top of twist on top of twist, that the goofy, young secret service agent who you're overlooking, she just loves Nintendo, actually is an unhinged psychopath responsible for much of the bloodshed. That was a good TV twist, but not a story I really needed a lot of, this is us level trauma unpacking about. Do we have her like before?

We do. We have her from birth. And not just her from birth and her backstory with her difficult mother and her childhood and then how she once wanted to help her mentor get a promotion so she cut her boss's rival's dick off and delivered it to her in a bag. Do you want to take a moment and watch that scene on Hulu? What was her mentor doing?

Was she also a killer or was she like... She's in like special services, you know. She's trained, you know. The one, the show has the interest in seemingly everything and can seemingly do anything at once. And one thing that I am less interested in in the second season is the subtle suggestion that there might be some deeper power connecting these people, that it's not just the magic of television that everyone can intersect emotionally

and plot-wise at the right moments. And this is the scenes of like Xavier's visions of Link, who is the new character. Thomas Dority, who, you know, as far as we know, they've never met and they've never been in the same room, but maybe this is, and it's even referred to, he's like, I keep having these dreams. And they're also having the seizures with the nosebleeds. So it's as if there is something more metaphysical happening. I'm going to tell you what I think that is or what the Internet thinks that is. Well, before you do, let me just say that the Jane episode begins with someone at like a Best Buy in 1997,

getting a lot of emails and messages saying, a killer will be born at 12 or whatever a.m. You must deliver a message to this killer. And this guy then goes to the hospital and yells at baby Jane. that you are a killer, but you can change. And the mom then hates her child because she's like, you're a killer, you're trouble. And so then Jane's just like, I'm a killer.

I'm trouble. I think I just want you to recap this show for me for the rest of the season. So tell me your theory. It's not individually. I did not, I'm not the inventor of this. Maybe I am Columbusing of this. That Alex and the other Sinatra

shooter drop is like a time machine of some kind. That would track with the lost tendencies of this show. And I... Capital L. I'm trying to be... I'm trying to be more accountable in this wartime, but also more...

I got to stand by what I say. And if I admire the show for being willing to do or try anything, I can't roll my eyes at that. Okay. You got to go for it. But I thought you would actually have turned slightly on the show once it became Lone Xavier and Cub.

There's too many babies in this situation. Too many babies. I mean, Bean's not a baby, but we've got too many kids in the mix. And despite the foregrounding. But that's Annie's baby. He's being made a promise. That's also the name of the baby is Annie's baby.

But also the foregrounding of when he's like, well, babies are resilient. I'm like, baby. You know, I've been a major player, a key player, or a good supporting actor. 49% shareholder. And I think. And I think that they were pretty strong and healthy,

but I don't think I would have gone on a road trip on horseback from Graceland to the greater Atlanta metro area. But if there was no devices, maybe that would be something you would do, you know? Oh, you mean if I couldn't play subway surfers, I would take a baby on a road trip just to feel alive? What do you mean? No devices. See the country.

The one thing that, here's the other thing that I'm tracking that is kind of a bummer, is like the hashtag girl dad stuff in movies that we were talking about. that really works for me. The had a baby once and then joined a TV writer's room vibe from Paradise where so much of everyone's actions and then explanations for the actions involve Xavier or another character being like

the moment you become a father is the moment you realize who in your life is going to betray you when an EMP goes off in a post-apocalyptic event. You know what I mean? Like that whole thing where he's just like I trusted this woman with the baby because Terry wouldn't let me read stories to my children

and she didn't let you do it either, Gary? Like, it's a little bit Parkslope parents' message board for me. It is. It is. There's some next door qualities. And if it's rubbing me the wrong way, I can only imagine. That honestly, I did not pick up on that, but that just goes to show you. My childless home. No, because you're imagining a world where there's a time machine that can just make you forget all the parts of paradise you don't like.

We can wrap it up there. Okay. Thanks to Kai and Kai. We'll be back on Thursday. where we will talk about the pit and take a little spin around the Sheridan universe, which has come back with two shows, one on CBS, one on Paramet Plus.

Oh, but do I have to watch both of them? No, you don't have to watch Marshals. I don't think you'd really understand what Casey's going through anyway. Thanks for listening. That's what I say when we talk about the state of HBO. That's right.