The Watch - Padma Lakshmi on ‘Top Chef’ and ‘Taste the Nation.’ Plus, ‘The King of Staten Island.’

Episode Date: June 18, 2020

Is ‘The King of Staten Island’ a good movie? Or is it just that there have been no new movies in a really long time (3:10)? Plus, Padma Lakshmi joins the show to talk about her new show on Hulu, ���Taste the Nation,’ and her experiences while judging ‘Top Chef’ for 16 seasons (12:06). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Padma Lakshmi Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the wringer.com and joining me on the other line. Were you sure about surfing me something hot? It's Andy Greenwald! Oh my God, guys, this is a big show and I almost missed it.

I'm so sorry. No, we're running on Greenwald time today, but we've got, it's still, we still have like a casual, leisurely vibe. The only that it's not casual or leisurely is the fact that, Padma Lakshmi is on the show today. So that was one we can cross off the bucket list. Padma came by to talk about her new show that's on Hulu called Taste the Nation. It's a 10-episode show that explores the immigrant experience in America and how immigrants are what makes up America.

And it's a great show. I encourage people to check it out. I love the DOSA episode, which is the third one. I loved the Thai episode, which is set largely in Vegas. Andy, I know you have some faves. Yeah, and I believe the first two episodes, I think, are available early. I think they're all up now, though. Yeah, so by the time you hear this.

And I know that they are going to make one of my favorite episodes, which is the episode about the Gullahigi culture in low country, basically around South Carolina and further south to Florida. They were going to make that episode free to even people who don't have Hulu, I believe this weekend, to celebrate Juneteenth. Oh, that's awesome. Just a really cool show and exactly the kind of show that I feel like is a tonic right now, both culturally, politically, and then also in terms of food TV, because we're recording this Thursday afternoon.

And tonight. Yeah. By the time you hear this, there will probably be a top chef. There will be a new top chef. And we didn't talk to Padma specifically about this finale because obviously she wasn't going to spoil anything. And also, we weren't sure when people were going to hear the interview. But we did, in addition to talking to her at length about Taste the Nation, I started to nerd out. Chris kind of had to rein me back in.

No, not at all. There was a minute when I was watching you in the Zoom window and you had your chin on your hand. And I couldn't tell if you were just basking in the glory that is Padma. Also, Padma uncorked because she was dropping F bombs left and right. Or if you were like, this is my guy. I'm letting him run the way I see people who own dogs. That's the face they make when they take their dogs to like a no leash dog run. You saw me just saying everything I want to say.

It's the spread offense. I like to put my playmakers in the position to make plays. And I love to get you in space. I love to get you yak, yards after the catch. It was a great conversation. I think that I had the same look on my face with Padma that I did with Paul Maskell, which is just like, man, like I got dealt a bum hand. We are on, it's amazing that as we've, you know,

we can no longer pretend that we are entering our 40s, but we are on an all-time run of putting our old asses up on the screen next to the most beautiful people in the world. So I feel like that's a good, I think that's a, I think there's, look, I don't, do I use the word brave to describe us? I don't need to. I let Kaya do that. But no, it's true. But, you know, I think it people are, people respect the choices we're making. Can I ask you one quick question? It's not even housekeeping, but before we get into a conversation, I know you wanted to talk a little bit about King of Staten Island, which you've, you dialed up. I'm having a little bit of a crisis. Uh-oh. When is it officially too late to quit a book?

Oh, this is a big question. I am 100 pages and change out on a book that I am reading, which I do like, or at least respect. It's by a writer I love. So you're 100 pages away from shore, or 100 pages towards your destination? I'm about 100 pages away from being done. Okay.

And it is a very dark book. Is it a novella? Is it 108 pages long? It is Dogs of Winter by Chem Nun. Okay. And it is, it's not that it's not what I want to read right now. I mean, it is a really good book, but I just feel like every night when I'm like, what I really want to do is get off the internet and read a book for an hour. It makes me feel like worse than being on the internet. And I don't know how much longer I can rock it. And I kind of just want to like I have a whole pile of stuff to read. And I kind of want to like pivot. But like when is it officially we have left the dock? We can no longer see land. And the only time we can go back to. land is when we cross the ocean.

I'm going to say something that might be controversial. You're going to say anytime, aren't you? What you want to hear, but if you want to give yourself up to the inky, black, murkiness of those waters and just park it, be the anchor. You can do that.

Because I think, and I think I've been talking about this a lot recently in different contexts. I don't think it's come up on the podcast recently, though I'm sure we've talked about this before. But I do think that in the portrait of the artist as a young person, one of the most powerful realizations you can have in life is the moment you realize you can just stop doing something. That movies, that gallery shows, certainly novels, that are quote unquote good for you, you don't always have to choke them down like medicine.

And you can instead pick up a, just to throw out something, a James Crumlin novel. I will say, I'm not, I'm not sure that this book is good for me. Right. So I'm saying you can say no, and there is great power in that. Now, I will also say that that can be overused. Like, learning to hit that button that I didn't have to continue reading 18th century epistolary novels deep into my 20s and could instead read, you know, Mystic River or whatever. Like, that was a huge for me because then I discovered all these crime books that you and I love and we love to talk about on the podcast, and reading became pleasurable again and more centered in what I wanted to do. But then there was like a 10-year period where I was like, if this book doesn't,

include like back alley dog fighting. I'm not going to read it. And, you know, that's why you have to have a corrective. Like, you do need a little medicine to help the sugar go down, which is why I just read Magic Mountain. But to your question, especially in a moment like this when self-care really is important. And I think we and I are both looking at the time we have to read books at the end of the day as like a restorative.

Yeah. You shouldn't be further poisoning the soul. I was just wondering. Let me ask you this. Okay. Was there ever a point during King of Staten Island where you wanted to hit eject? Yes. Yes.

And I'm going to be honest with you. The reason we didn't, and I know people loved our policy of watching movies over as many days as possible. That went over real big, I think. Oh, was there some feedback on that? A little bit. I looked at my wife who disliked it much more than I disliked it. and said, we have to finish this because we are not spending

tomorrow night doing this too. We have to. We have to finish the ferry ride. Yeah, we paid for it. I would direct people. And I don't know. I read our old friend Wesley wrote a review in the Times

that really kind of squared with my opinion of the movie. And I would direct people to Richard Brody's review in the New Yorker. Yeah, you would. No, here's why. No, I'm just saying. And Richard Brody

Richard Brody is kind of a cantankerous guy who has very, very sometimes just plain curious film taste, right? It doesn't always, which makes him always worth reading because his top ten is never like anyone else's. And he has been writing for Apatau

as like the inheritor of the French New Wave since 40-year-old virgin. Like purely as an aesthetic filmmaker, he thinks he's the tits, right? Like the greatest. And so his review of this movie is basically the most, kind and generous measured pan, I can imagine reading.

Right. Because the things that Apatau are really good at are here, right? Like, I like slipping into these movies. I like seeing people like Bill Burr given a chance to just act the shit out of something because he's a great stand-up and I always really like seeing him. Marisita Tomei. Mr. Tome is great. But I really found this to be a struggle because the other parts about Apatow movies

are that they are all super duper long, right? you don't have to put in all the scenes, even the ones that made you laugh on set. And that thing that he does were like everyone's problems, whether they're Amy Schumer's problems and Trainwreck or Seth Rogen's problems and knocked up and now Pete Davidson's problems

can all be solved with a hearty dose of family and hard work. It's just weird to me because I just feel like this movie actually flirted with a darkness that was surprising for an Apatatown movie in terms of mental illness and stuff and grief.

And then it kind of ultimately was too scared of both those topics to talk about them and instead had people punching each other for tips in a Staten Island Italian restaurant. Yeah, I thought it was probably two movies. I thought that there was like a really, really cool movie with Marissa Tomei, Bill Burr and Steve Bouchemey that was kind of in there.

And I will openly say like I laughed out loud a bunch and I really enjoyed myself. I would probably not watch it again. It's not, uh, and it's, I cannot remove it from the context in which I saw it, which is like, this is really the only movie that's come out in a long time. that I was genuinely excited for. So I think I was really, I wouldn't say I'm grading on a curve as much as I was grading with,

uh, I was, I was definitely just really open to whatever it had to deal. And so even when it goes to college with Maude Apatow, I'm like, you know what, what else am I fucking doing?

Like, I hear that. I feel like I was with you and then went in a different direction because I also, we were really excited because we wanted to watch a movie, you know,

I wanted to see some new cultural content. And I wanted to laugh a little bit or maybe more than a little bit. But I think that what you said is also really true. You can always tell what story the filmmaker is most interested in. And sometimes that produces really surprising or, you know, interesting work because it might not be what you thought it was or might not be what the screenwriter thought it was or whatever. But I think that he was more interested in the older characters. I wouldn't be surprised.

I just personally, and the movie just kept nudging closer to that. And I would have been more interested in that too. You know, I think more than anything else. Well, that's a lukewarm take from both of us. I know. It's kind of a lukewarm take. But look, I mean, like the rest of this pot is entirely celebratory. So it's okay to be lukewarm about some things. But it's also weird to be like I admire the whole Apatovian thing.

And I particularly admire the way he keeps bringing people in under his wing and like bringing work out of them and challenging them and pushing them. And I just think that that fulfills such a good role in Hollywood and in the universe that, you know, a bum movie here there isn't too bad of a price to pay for it. I don't wish. I'm not regretting a wasted night. I just, I think maybe I, maybe we both started with the same expectations and I wanted more and you were fine with what you got. Let's do a little housekeeping before we go. Yeah. Because we got this patent interview.

We want everybody here. Monday show, I propose top chef recap, obviously. be a little bit after the fact, but we can share our final thoughts. We're going to try and get a special guest to join us. The special guest, I'm going to spoil it, is Kem Nunn, who's going to be like, Chris, I'm very disappointed in you.

It's actually Judd. Sorry, and he's replacing you permanently. It's dangerous. He's on a lot of pods these days. I know. No, we'll talk about Top Chef. We'll probably talk about I May Destroy You Episode 3, but I would really love to talk about

the Perry Mason HBO series. So that comes out on Sunday, so we'll check that out. For sure. So, yeah, everybody have a great. safe weekend. Enjoy Top Chef. Enjoy Taste the Nation. Enjoy King of Staten Island if the spirit moves you. I can't believe we got to talk to Pad Malakshmi. She was just on Zoom with us.

I know. I know. I've never felt uglier in my life. Talk to you later, man. Bye. I don't know if Andy and I have ever been more excited to have somebody on this podcast at the same time. It is our absolute honor to welcome Padman Lakshmi to the watch. She is the host of Taste the Nation, which is coming out on Hulu this week. It's a great new show that explores the immigrant experience in America and the food traditions that are still alive and well in this country. And she is also obviously the host and one of

the judges of Top Chef, which Andy and I have been talking about constantly over the last couple of months. So thank you so much for joining us, Piva. Thank you guys for having me. I'm excited to be here. So we do have, of course, we have some Top Chef questions in advance of the finale. But we are going to begin by talking, as Chris said, about Taste the Nation, which really enjoyed. It was a really wonderful treat to be able to watch some of the episodes in advance. And so I wanted to start there. So obviously, there are no shortage of travel shows where a host, usually a man, introduces us to the foodways of America as if the country was some giant all-you-can-eat buffet that's just waiting to be taken advantage of. It's not necessarily a bad thing. It's well-intentioned often.

But Taste the Nation, you're steadfast in presenting American food as something that is distinctly cultural and something to be respected and preserved as much as it is to be savored. And I'm just curious to begin why that perspective was so important to you and also what steps you took to make sure that it stayed at the foreground of every step of the production. Well, I mean, this is the first time I'm doing my own material, basically. And this is something that I've been interested in on my life. If you look at even my first cookbook from 20 years ago, I often cringe about the title now because it's so much of its time. It's called Easy Exotic.

But what I was trying to do is make, you know, food that Americans consider exotic more approachable. And, you know, you're right. There are a lot of these travel shows where some swashbuckling chef goes around and, you know, there are good ones and they're not so good ones, but there are many. And, you know, yes, I also travel around the country and I guess I'm eating, but I'm a woman. So it's going to have my personal.

perspective. Not that, you know, it always has to have a feminine touch, but this does. I am a brown woman. I'm an immigrant living in this country of white men my whole life. And so I'm looking at the world from that point of view. And that also informs the content of the show. And for so long, in mainstream media, I saw a lot of chefs take credit for things that, it was, you know, Immigrants obviously brought to this country. And I was kind of sick of it. You know, I wanted to hear from the people who actually brought us those things. And there was so much crap coming out of Washington for the last three and a half years that I got pissed off.

And I started working with the ACLU on immigrant issues. And this show is really a direct result of my work with them. You know, I would make speeches at rallies and stuff. And I was always obviously talking about my own personal experiences in immigrant. I'm Indian. I came here when I was four. But I kind of got bored of doing the same speech in different ways. So I started looking at other immigrant communities.

And to me, the most exciting food in this country is coming out of those immigrant communities. So let's be clear. Americans are from everywhere. And they're all joined by being a citizen of this great land. you know, immigrants built the food of this nation, but immigrants also just built the goddamn nation. Okay? So unless you are part of the Apache tribe, you two are either an immigrant or a descendant of an immigrant. The only difference is that your grandfather came here from Germany three generations ago,

and that Thai lady came over, you know, 40 years ago because she married an American GI. But other than that, the humanity of those two people, to me, have equal value. And I was also just curious. I just wanted to go and learn how to make these recipes from the people who actually knew how to do it because they'd grown up with it all their lives. And I think that stuff is interesting. I'm also like a real history nerd. So, you know, there's a lot of history in the show. I'm taking a big gamble, creating the show that other people, enough people,

will also be interested in that stuff. I think it's super important, especially in our country right now, to look our history, the good and bad, squarely in the face. And I don't think that we will overcome our faults or evolve into a better society

if we don't be straight with ourselves about that history. And food is full of history. You know, if you tell me what a person eats, I'll tell you who they are. I won't tell you my breakfast then. I'm not proud of it. What was your breakfast?

It's okay. It's a safe space. I'm not, you know, I'm not judging. No, it's nothing too. It was basically like I went in and I foraged what was left over. So it was basically like... I mean, the best recipes I've written are because of that. Like, I call it MacGyvering in the kitchen.

Oh, that makes it sound so much more noble that I call it, which was just like, while the children were squared away, grabbing the leftover rice and there was like some chicken fat, and there was eggs and there was some sort, like, and just threw it all in a bowl and then sort of speed ate it over the counter with a spoon. I feel like this is a humble brand. That's pretty good. I had toast with almond butter, man. Like, yeah, I feel pretty good. Now we know who you are, Chris. That's right. How granola of you are. You wearing broken socks under that desk. I am not. I am not. We have no way of knowing. It's not that safe of his space. You know, it's really cool to hear you

talk about that because one of the things I often happens with, with food shows I love is I'll start writing down like things I want to try or restaurants I want to visit. But with this, I was also writing down things that I wanted to learn more about, you know, whether it was references you were making to history. I thought that this stuff, I didn't actually, I don't think I knew exactly about the introduction of flour to Mexico. I thought that was really fascinating. I was curious whether or not when you were making it, as you were making it, did the show reveal itself to you in production as you were going out there? Or did you have a pretty good idea about how it was going to feel or what the show is going to say going into it.

I had to make sure, this was my first foray into being a creator of a show, like I said. And so, you know, in documentary, you never know what you're going to find. And so you have to keep it kind of loose. But behind that parameter of looseness, you have to be hyper-organized because you often don't get much time with these people. I was lucky. I was in each of these communities, you know, about a week. and I really, you know, in as much as I could, tried to embed myself in these communities.

And I did a lot of research before because I needed to know my shit before I went in to talk to these people just out of respect, you know. And so we had, I had field producers in each town, to go to the town, to interview people, to find people. Each episode is in a different city with a different community, but each episode, also layered on top of that has a specific theme. So in the Iranian episode in Tarangeloos or Los Angeles, you know, the idea of misrepresentation is what we wanted to talk about because a lot of Persians or Iranians get lumped in with Arabs and they're totally different cultures. And those

people who came here, you know, some in the late 70s, early 80s, some later, they're also not in agreement with the fundamentalist regime that is in their country. That's why they came here. But they get billified and labeled as being that. And then after 9-11, you know, they get blamed for everything that people from other countries have done. They get called terrorists. Well, you know, Arab culture is much different than Persian culture. It's a Bedouin culture. Persian culture is not. It's a very ancient, learned culture. Not saying that Arab culture, isn't, but they're just different, you know, and they speak a different language. You know, the religion gives them sometimes the same names.

But a lot of Iranians are Jewish, Christian, Baha'i. So I wanted to look at the idea of misrepresentation in that community. With the ties in Las Vegas, I wanted a very female forward, female-centric episode, because, you know, most of professional food in this country is really, run by white males. But most of the food cooked everywhere in the world is cooked by women. Yeah. I'm a goodwill ambassador for the UN and a lot of development issues we look at.

We look at now through the lens of equality because a lot of the economic inequality is due to cultural gender roles. And so we're never going to solve that problem until we raise up women and raise and, you know, try to alter or open the minds of the perceptions of women's place in society. So I focused on women in the Thai community because when women came here in the 70s, they usually, you know, that community I'm speaking of, there were probably more ties in Los Angeles, but I wanted to go to Las Vegas specifically because of Nellis Air Force base. You probably remember that from Top Gun.

You know, and a lot of GIs that were stationed in. Vietnam brought back these war brides because the American army had a base in Thailand where soldiers would come to do R&R. And, and you know, I heard stories of these women who were welcomed with open arms by their in-laws. And a lot of them really only spoke broken English. They didn't know anything. It was literally like being dropped on Mars. And they had to learn everything. And so the idea of how do you create a life for yourself when you can't even have an understanding of the culture you're living in and they don't have an understanding of you? How do you basically sculpt a life out of the mist or out of the dust, I guess, in the case of Las Vegas,

desert? But how do you do that? And these women have done that beautifully. They've built a temple for themselves. They've raised families. They have children and grandchildren. And so I wanted to look at that community for really that reason. So we knew that each episode before we started the series would do that. I, I along with, you know, my showrunner, Serena Roma, who's fantastic and my producing partner on this from Part Two Pictures, David Smith, you know, we all came together. We talked a lot about that. And we had a lot of meetings with all the producers on the show to. tell them very specifically, this is how the show is going to go down. This is why we're doing this show. This is what we want to learn from the show. This is how we're going to do it.

And, you know, there was also like a series Bible that went into it. And also, like, from my perspective, I'm a very visual person. And so the visual language of the show is also very purposeful and very, you know, very specific because that's how I wanted it. So we had a lot of, you know, mood boards and things that went around. We had very specific instructions about how things were to be shot, you know, what lenses, things like that. So I just, you know, when I get nervous or feel insecure, I just overprepared. That's my only way to calm my nerves down. So I tried to shape everything in as much as I could. And then I had to let it go.

Right. Right. I'm really glad that you mentioned the fact that each episode is so distinct. Just in the few that I was able to watch, like the episode on the Gullah culture in the Low Country was just so fascinating and food was so beautiful and the attention to detail, you know, and it speaks to the overall project, which I think you're engaged in, which is to kind of remove the traditional white interlocutor who says,

I found this thing and now I'll explain it to you and you actually went to the source. That said, the episode, the episode. the episode that I watch more than once, because once I watched it, I had to watch it with my wife as well, is the one that might be the most personal to you, which is episode three, which is about the Indian community in Queens. And it's just a beautiful episode of television. I recommend everyone to watch it when it's available. And I just wonder if you could- Shout out DJ Rika, too. Yeah, she's one of my best friends. I've known her for so long. I'm just wondering what that experience was like for you to turn the camera the other way and, you know, include your mother and include your mother and include,

your daughter and include moments and memories that were extremely personal to you? It was weird. I had a hard time, you know, being honest, I had a hard time being objective about that. And, you know, I'm used to being on camera, but my mom isn't. And my daughter is, you know, she's just waiting for her big moment, you know, in the spotlight. She is the best supporting character on your Instagram. I think we all have to say. Yeah, she's so funny.

And I have to like push her, say, you know, I don't want you over-exper. I'm like, you don't want to peek too early, Krishna. I'm only getting it, Carol, once, my friend, trust me. That's great. But, you know, like, I was concerned about that. Like, now, because we're in quarantine, she's all over my Instagram. But before quarantine, you know, I had pictures of her and stuff, but I would show her from profile.

I would try to be elegant about it. But, you know, if you do a basic Google search, you will see thousands of pictures of me and Krishna, shot by paparazzi, you know, in the streets of New York. because we live our life. And so I had to be able and willing to be as intimate and as revealing and vulnerable with my family as I was asking the participants in the other episodes to be.

And they were really great. You know, they let me into their homes. They let me question them about some very intimate topics. And so how could I not do that with my own family? But in that one, I just kind of had to rely and take a back. I mean, I'm a really bossy bitch anyway, and all my family knows that. And so, you know, they're used to me being that way. But for this episode, I really leaned on my executive producer, Serena Roma, to guide me because I, you know, I didn't want it to be kind of about me, but that episode obviously is about me. And it was really nice to finally show who I am in all of my parts and how I am at home. home because, you know, for so long in my career, people were making assumptions about who I was because what you see on Top Chef is such a narrow vision into my character or personality because,

you know, the success of that show and my success as a host begs that, you know, it's about the contestant. It's not really about me. Also, I think because I have spent so much of my life career as a model as well as an actress when I was still auditioning, trying to be as American as possible, trying to be, you know, that girl next door, trying to be as white as I could, so that I would get cast so that I would work because I didn't feel any less American than my classmate, you know, named Lisa Brown, you know, but I was looked at that way. And so then at some point And I was just like, all right, fuck it. I'm just going to be me.

And I'm going to eat with my hands. And I'm going to just be who I am because they don't care anyway when I try to do what they say they want. I was wondering, you know, this isn't so much as a question as much as like, where's your head at with it? But like as you probably, you know, you've been talking a lot about this show. And I'm sure have been whether consciously rewatching or out of the corner of your eyes, seeing a lot of the show in advertisements. What has been going through your head as you kind of think. about the state of us eating together, which has obviously changed so much over the last few months as every, as a lot of other things have. But the New York episode specifically, I was really moved and also kind of melancholy about, you know, the when will we be able to eat together in New York? And the same way I feel when I watch Top Chef is living in Los Angeles is it's been really poignant watching some of these episodes and just kind of feeling like a kind of phantom limb there. Where's your head at with that kind of stuff? I love the Jonathan Gold. old episode on Top Chef this season.

It really, because again, you know, it allowed us to go to some of those mom and pop hole in walls, some of the ethnic cuisine that Jonathan championed so much. It was nice to have my friend Ruth Reichel back on the show. It was nice to, you know, just give some play and attention to these restaurants because Los Angeles is very diverse, but the communities don't often mix, you know. And I found it very lonely when I lived in L.A. because of that. You know, I'm a New Yorker.

I'm used to everyone bumping against each other. I think while it's obvious, I could have never predicted, you know, the environment that I'd be releasing this show into. What I am really proud of is that it very much speaks to the moment in several ways. It is uplifting and highlighting restaurants that don't have big investment that aren't fancy.

I mean, there are a couple of fancy restaurants in it, But, you know, and they really need help right now. So it does give attention and appreciation to those mom and pop places that have really built this country's gastronomy. It also hopefully is comforting for people to watch and live vicariously through the show to travel, you know, in a way that we can't or go out to these restaurants because we can't. But I also think more and on top of all that is this very central question, which I've been thinking about for years. And I guarantee you many of my fellow people of color and African Americans and indigenous people have been thinking really all our lives because we've had to think about it is how do you give credit where credit is due? How do you celebrate a culture without stealing from it for your own benefit? And I think the show does a good job of addressing that.

And it's something that is obviously very much at the forefront of everyone's mind, especially in the food industry, but not only in media, in magazines, and publishing and TV. So I'm lucky in that I have a show that is easy to talk about because it would be awkward to be like, hey, watch my show. You know, it's a weird moment that some people are thinking of. But I really hope that it does provide some food for thought and some comfort to people. I didn't do this show for people like me who think like me.

I did this for people who voted for Trump. Yeah. Really did because I wanted to find a positive way to provide a rebuttal to all of that political rhetoric. coming out of Washington. You know, immigrants are not to be feared, shouldn't be threatened by, you know, a Filipino family moving into your neighborhood. It is the engine that makes our economy run.

It is what provides the richness and flavor to not only our food, but our literature. I mean, think of American writing without Tony Morrison. Sure. You know, for one example out of a million. think of what our music would be, you know, without all the influences that it has. Think about our sports. Think about our movies.

All of these things, all of these cultures come. And to me, you know, make something different that's wholly, uniquely American. And that is what I think makes America cool. It's not our capitalism, which, by the way, immigrants have provided the capital in capitalism. It is because we have always had this representation. for being open-armed, for being welcoming, you know, in spite of whatever shit show our foreign policy has been in various decades. And so there was always this higher moral ground that American culture had because you could go to America. It didn't matter where you were from,

who your family was from. If you're willing to work hard, you too could have a shot at the American dream. And in pursuing that dream, you could contribute into the culture that welcomed you. and pay it forward. Yeah, I think that's really well said. And you've been very generous with your time. We do have a couple Top Chef questions since you mentioned that wonderful episode. So you're talking to two people who are all in, but coming out from very different perspective. So I have watched every episode of the entire series as it came out, even the season before you arrived.

And I was very glad when you arrived. And I have probably watched, I think, seven seasons since quarantine started, having never watched before. also child free in case you're wondering. I think that was Game of Thrones. I know how the time watch Game of Thrones, I started at the beginning two months ago when I'm done there. So we both have, we're both completely immersed in it, but I think we've been talking a lot about how over the last few seasons in a really wonderful and positive way, the show has kind of served as a microcosm of the changing kitchen culture in this country. It's less bro-y, it's less hierarchical, it's less, you know, the show is never abusive, but the

legacy of kitchens that were run that way seems to have faded a little bit, and there's a new generation of chefs being represented. And the tenor of the show has changed along with it. Seasons that I remember being wonderful looked a little bit different now in retrospect. So I guess I wanted to know your thoughts about that on the evolving nature of the show. Personally, just as a viewer and as a fan, I feel your voice and Gail's voice more. And that's wonderful. And I wonder if that mirrors the experience for you over the seasons behind the scenes of the show.

Yeah, it does. I wasn't a producer when I started on Top Chef. I am now. Is it a looser set when it's an all-star season? Because it feels a little bit looser watching it this year. Well, you know, I'm like a fourth grade teacher with every new batch of kids. I get incredibly emotionally involved with them. I'm there with them every single fucking day in and out.

And I really feel for them. As hard as it looks on TV, it's way harder in real life. They're exhausted. They're freaked out. I would never be a contestant. I put myself through that shit. But they do because they love what they. do and they want to be challenged.

And so, you know, you have to evolve. The only, it's like an old marriage. You know, we've been on TV since 2006, seven. I can't even remember. Six. Yeah, thank you. And, you know, so it would be weird if we were just the same. I think the world of food has changed for the better.

I think it's got a long way to go, but it's getting there. And I think we've changed with it. you know, we always try to try to practice some form of affirmative action in our casting. I and Tom and Gail don't have anything to do with casting because it would be a conflict of interest to, you know, then judge the people we handpicked. So I'm not involved in that, but as far as the challenges, as far as the way I give feedback, it has changed. And this season, because I get so emotionally involved with them, you know, I've seen them at festival. and food events. Some of them, you know, I've had to my house,

and some of them I'm really close friends with. And then, you know, to have them back in the top chef's kitchen be like, all right, you know, it just doesn't really would laugh in my fucking face. They'd be like, what? You know, so it is a little bit looser because, I mean, the competition is no less serious, but just the demeanor between us is different because, you know, we have a relationship with each other. And that actually worried me at the beginning of the season.

Yeah. There were two moments in particular. I'd just love to get your perspective on. As all 17 seasons up here somewhere, there were two moments that totally took my breath away. I wonder if you can predict them. One was Gregory's radical restaurant wars strategy. Unreal.

I literally gasped when he chose Malarkey first. And you said the same thing, which felt very rare for the show. It was hilarious and all in good fun. You really broke the fourth wall. You were like, hold on. You spoke for all of us when you were like, what are you doing? I'm so glad you said that, that line you spoke for all of us.

Because, you know, Tom is the head judge because he's a veteran of the kitchen, of the restaurant kitchen. You know, it's lots of the experience. He does a great job. Gail is there because she brings, you know, a publishing element to it. She's, you know, she's from food and wine. I really, sure, I write cookbooks and I've written the Encyclopedia, but I really see my role as the audience is representative.

I'm judging really judging a meal by whether I'm willing to put on heels, you know, pay for a babysitter and get my partner to take me out and shell out $100 a head. Is this plate of food next to me worth it? That's how my head. I don't really care how hard or easy it is to make something, although obviously I'm aware of it because of my work. And in that moment, I was like, I'm kidding. Yeah. But, you know, I think Gregory's smart. I think he's worked elbow to elbow, and he knew something about Brian that maybe we didn't.

And, you know, it was a really big risk also because he didn't make that beautiful fish that he gave us when he pitched the restaurant. So a lot of it seemed to me counterintuitive. But, you know, at the end of the day, he won. So good on him. It was so cool. And then the flip side of that was this moment in the past week when poor, wonderful, Brian Voltajio had to stand there and be told that he had no soul, which was just jaw-dropping and wild.

And I just had to get your thoughts on that moment because you had to deliver this. You and Gail had to deliver this news to him that this table full of Michelin-starred people said he was dead inside. You know, I always get the shitty brunt work on top chef. Like Tom gets to rough them up, but it's me that has to come and pull that trigger and be like, you got to go home. I'm sorry. And so I think, you know, that's why I had to do it.

I really did not look forward to that moment. The moment they said it, because I speak Italian, I understood it right away. We watched it on your face. Yes. In all its depth. I actually started my TV career in Italy and Italian. So, you know, I was like, shit, did I really hear that? And of course I heard it.

There's no denying what I heard. And I cried a little inside. I just went, you know, because I felt it because Brian has a ton of heart. Yeah. He has so much soul. He's just a really, you know, he's a by-the-book guy. You know, he's so punctilious about his craft, which is what's gotten him so far. And that's why in the episode, in the Jonathan Gold episode, when he has to cook Filipino food,

you know, it's beautiful because you see all of that technique and execution and knowledge and precision applied to a food that is so soulful. You know, immigrant food tends to be that because it's not so standardized yet. And you saw that combination be glorious. And, you know, obviously I'm not allowed to whisper anything in anybody's here. But if I had to coach Brian, I would say, do that, dude. Yeah. Do the food you want to eat at midnight.

not what you want to serve to a food critic. You know, do that because that is what will get you there. I mean, he's such a high, high, high brow chef. And he does have his soul. He's very loving. He's dedicated to his family. You saw a little bit of that when we had a system helping him. Yeah, he's a bad foil.

He's not the straw man. Like, everything has to be correct, old-fashioned kitchen guy. He's been wonderful on the show. But there is a fascinating generational struggle set up for this finale. Not to discount Stephanie, who blew us all. all away last week, but with who Melissa is and the story she tells through her food and the energy and the brightness and the youth, it sets up kind of an interesting, I don't want to say struggle, because again, they're doing lip sync videos on your Instagram right now, but

which is amazing. I love that they, Melissa put that video up because it just shows another side, mostly of Brian and Melissa, because she's so composed. You know, Stephanie will kind of make those jokes more easily. it's just where each head is at in the Top Chef Kitchen. You know, before, because they don't get any access to, you know, radio or internet or newspapers, I used to read them their horoscope while we were sitting there in the Top Chef Kitchen just while they were doing the lights because it's so awkward.

They're just sitting there. And in the beginning seasons, they really had to stare each other down, which I found so uncomfortable. Yeah. Because it's not my nature. You know, I'm a very touchy-feely emotive person. So then I just, to kill the time, I started reading them the horoscopes from the New York Post. And it really loosened them up. And I would make them participate.

I would say, who here is the Scorpio? And they would raise their hand and say, I knew it. I don't know anything about Scorpio. We will let you go in a moment. And Chris is going to cut me off because I could ask you TC questions all day. Not at all. one more, which is in your mind, I'm sure you can't remember all of them. It's been many seasons. But to your memory, what was the most painful elimination to vocalize and why was it Eric?

And which time with Eric? In which time. Yeah. Which time, I know. Well, the first cut is always the deepest. But I have to tell you, I love Eric's food. I haven't traveled a lot in Africa, but I have been a couple of. at times. And I'm fascinated by that food. I don't think I know as much about it. And so I love

having Eric on the show. And I hope we do a better job, frankly, of having more diversity. You know, the problem becomes hard because we always cast an equal number of men and women. And invariably, the white guys rise to the top. And that's not an accident. I think it's because they've had more opportunities to learn from, you know, how. higher quality chefs. They've had a longer time in kitchens. They've been nurtured much more in our society, not just in food, than those other people, you know, of different ethnicities, but also women. And, you know, you're right, it is getting a lot better. But the kitchen is probably the professional kitchen in this country is probably the most male dominated industry other than the

military here. So, so having somebody like Eric, to me, is a breath of fresh. air. And I would just love, and also he's so beautiful. I mean, he has this beautiful smile. And he's, you know, he's so abusive. And so I, you know, it's hard for me every time. There was only one or two moments in all of my seasons on Top Chef where I was really glad to see people go. And I was like, oh, thank God. When we stop recording, will you tell us? I'll tell you on camera, one of them. Michael Midgley, my first season, the show's second season, in California, because he was just really disrespectful. Yeah, it was more combative show back then, I think, for among the contestants, it seemed like that.

Especially that season. That was my first season, and I just, you know, we never intended for it to be that way. And I think people were watching a lot of early reality television, and they thought that was a way to make a name for themselves. and we quickly availed them of that misconception once it happened. And I wasn't into that. I'm not into doing a show like that from my own, you know, from my own piece of mind. I don't want to work in that environment or step on a set like that. And so, you know, we really made an early decision that we've stuck true to is that it's about the food.

And sometimes, you know, not the most interesting person wins. You know, sometimes the boring guy wins. But, you know, that's who made the best plate of food that day. You know, sometimes the best baseball team doesn't always win the world's serious. That's true. That's true. Well, Padman, thank you so much for spending so much time with us today. We really enjoy talking to you.

I really hope people check out Taste the Nation. It's a really awesome achievement. Yeah, thank you. I'm very proud of it. Thank you both. And thanks for being so supportive of Top Chef as well. I really appreciate it. We love it.

I can't. I can't. The only thing that I'm sad about tomorrow is I just can't imagine how long it's going to be until we get it back. I know. We're trying to figure that out now, but it's hard because even if the best laid plans are put into place and all these protocols are followed, like it changes every day, you know. And at the end of the day, we have, you know, really good crew.

It's like 150 of us. So it's going to be a struggle. But, you know, obviously, we all want to go back to work. And that what you mentioned about being true to the food, I mean, that's the thing that has always steered you straight. You know, I think it's what's got the show through many different eras of reality TV and many different areas of audiences and it just feels really poised to continue to thrive. I mean, this season feels like a resurgence in a wonderful way.

Our ratings are up by double digits. It's incredible and deserved. It's also the best sport on TV right now. There's that too. It's only sport, yes. Fabman, thank you so much for joining us. Take care. Thank you.

Stay well.