The Watch - ‘Perry Mason’ Is Dark, but to What End? Plus: the Top Chef, Melissa King.

Episode Date: June 23, 2020

‘Perry Mason,’ the HBO reboot starring Matthew Rhys, is very expensive and very dark. Will either of those aspects make for a popular TV show (1:50)? Plus, we welcome the winner of ‘Top Chef,’ Melissa King, to the show to talk about her strategy for the finale (24:55) and what she learned about her cooking this season (37:59). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Melissa King Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I need sports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the Wrenner.com and joining me on the other line keeps the nokey crispy. It's Andy Greenwald! I thought you were going to do a Perry Mason bit, but you did Top Chef.

Andy, is Perry Mason going to be popular? Let's set up the show before you started asking me the big questions. So on today's show called The Watch podcast, a pop culture podcast. We were... It's an ungainly title. We're working on it. We were so honored to be joined by Melissa King, who... Sorry, spoilers. Spoiler alert, is the winner of Top Chef. She is Top Chef. So Melissa was so nice to give

us some of her time, and we talked to her about the finale, her season, Top Chef in general, and what she's been doing since. We are on a real run, and the only people left for us to talk to after Padma and Melissa are Gregory, because I think we both wanted to talk to. to him no matter what and whoever's been doing Tom's hats this season. Yeah. The Haberdasher. I also want to talk a lot to Brian and Michael Voltajio about their FaceTime from Italy, which was deeply unemotional. Anyway, man, I just wanted to say hello. And so we have a bunch of stuff we can talk about. We want to do top chef finale first, or do you want to do? No, let's talk about

the latest must-see television from the home box office. So this is a really interesting situation. It is. There's a couple of things here that I think everybody involved in this podcast, you, me, maybe even Kaya, who Kaya, unknown, unbeknownst to a lot of people, really into moody, anti-hero crime dramas. Yeah. She's the one who makes us talk about them. It's true. We keep saying, no, no more difficult men. And Kaya's like, line them up, fellas.

True. So I was going to call it True Detective. And maybe it should be called True Detective. this is a sort of reimagining of Perry Mason, obviously a very beloved and famous television show in the past. And it initially was conceived as a starring vehicle for Robert Downey Jr., who remains as an executive producer on the show. And it originally was going to be written, and I imagine show run by Nick Pizzolato, who left the show to go do True Detective Season 3 with Mahershal Ali. And so we get both. We do get this new rebooted version, but rather than Robert Downey Jr., we have.

Matthew Reese playing the titular detective. And it's set in early 1930s Los Angeles. And the opening episode kind of has a lot of, pits a lot of fingerprints, if not credits. You know, he is not credited with writing this first episode, but the themes of deep conspiracy, of child endangerment,

and of very difficult substance-dependent, anti-hero men are all there. So I think I'd be very curious to know about like the sort of draft history over the years. Two other writers have taken over the show. We should say Roland Jones and Ron Fitzgerald. Roland Jones always noteworthy to me into this podcast as the writer of probably the best episode of Friday Night Lights, The Sun. Many, a lot of credits beyond that, but that's always what comes to mind. Yes.

So, you know, it wasn't to say that this is like Nick's show or something like that. I just thought it was, there were a couple of moments. moments, especially in this first episode, where I was like, oh, wow, I wonder if this was going to be the deep cult, baby murdering, alcohol-guzzling show. And now I think it will be that. But I think my colleague, Andrew Gooderado, put it really well in a tweet, which was essentially in a paraphrasing, this is true detective meets boardwalk empire, and I'm going to watch all of it. It's a weird, weird thing. I mean, I think people, uh, I really want to. wonder how many of our listeners even know the name Perry Mason. Like, that's not even something

that we watch. This is the far, far reaches of IP. This is a show that was on in the 50s and that lived on for 20 years from the 70s up until Raymond Burr, who starred as Perry Mason died, I think, at the end of the 80s, beginning of the 90s. And so even for us, as kids, this was kind of fusty material. This was movie of the weak stuff. And Perry Mason was a defense attorney who not only proved his client's innocence, but often pointed out the murderer in the back row and everyone gasped, and he helped people. And so this is a, this is IP that is 90 years old, it started as a series of books. This idea that he was before a lawyer, that he was a, you know, PTSD or something suffering World War I vet working as a dingy PI. This is all relatively invented stuff.

People might think when they see this and they hear the history that you just described, that this is purely a vanity project, that this is something that meant a lot to Robert. at Downey Jr. And he wanted to find a TV vehicle for himself. And for he and his wife, Team Downey, his wife isn't Team Downey. His wife is Susan Downey. They have a production company called Team Downey. And that this was all lined up, you know, for him to enter like many stars are doing and turn to the prestige TV sweepstakes. You might think that's how this show came about. What you may be surprised to know is this show actually was the idea of TikTok users and K-pop stands who generated this idea themselves. And so don't think. It's actually more out of touch

to think that this is out of touch. No, it's bizarre. Like, there's no other way to put it because you watch this show and no expense has been spared. It looks incredible. It looks incredible. As Terrence Blanchard jazz soundtrack, it's beautiful. Tim Van Patton, who directed a lot of Deadwood, several Deadwood episodes, I know, and lots of Portwick Empire. It is a HBO kind of go-to guy. And period pieces are not cheap. And period pieces that also have what appears to be an enormous amount of CGI or Viz effect shots, specifically like the Angels Flight Railroad exists, but it's right across from, in contemporary L.A., from Grand Central Market, and it's just part of downtown L.A. There are these shots that take actual things and then put them in what appear to be

completely rendered landscape of 1931. Yeah. The fireworks scene that they do on the rooftops. On a roof. Yeah. Yeah. And then you look at the cast. I mean, Matthew Reese won an Emmy, deservedly, for being the star of the Americans. And then in supporting roles, you have Shea Wiggum, John Lithgow, Tatiana Maslani in future episodes. Juliet Rylance, yeah. Julia Rylance, who's was phenomenal on the Nick. This is big budget stuff and heavy hitters. And it's, I just got to start with this.

It is so weird that it's all in the service of a proudly, you know, backwardly, you know, backward looking retro noir. This doesn't, other than the intensity of the subject matter, which is no joke. And we will talk about that as we talk about the show and maybe even the series. I mean, these actors are never going to say no to playing dress up and drinking out of flasks. I mean, that's fun. But it felt very, very, very far away.

And maybe that's because of the world we're living in at the moment. I think it actually feels, rather than feeling out of context or out of touch with today's world, I just think it feels out of touch with the shows that we know work now. And that doesn't mean that you can't do the 1932 version of Perry Mason

and not have it work. I think it's trying to scratch a couple of different inches. While I was watching it, I was like, oh, I wonder if this is supposed to be like their night of. This is supposed to be like almost like a prestige drama, you know, wrapped up in a crime show. Or I wonder if this is supposed to be

the new Reddit show where people are trying to make the connections already because clearly the last image of the pilot or the first episode is a kind of Carrie Matheson-esque collage of all the pieces mattering and these connections that Perry Mason is starting to make about this child's murder. And then I was sort of just like maybe this is just going to be

one of those period piece, multi-season. We got ourselves a bunch of good-looking people in cool outfits doing stuff in a different time period in American history. And that just kind of sometimes sustains itself as Boardwalk Empire did. It can. Not everything has to touch that third rail of relevance. It feels, I think, maybe more frustrating that it doesn't because there's all this talk of,

you know, a contentious relationship with the police, which is obviously very relevant today. And, you know, are we using the opportunity and the budget to look backwards to say something new about the past or even something relevant about the present, you know, that remains to be seen? what it felt like to me honestly after watching it and not disliking it just being a little bit befuddled by it was that what it felt like to me was an HBO Max show and what I mean by that I know we've spent a lot of weeks saying what is HBO Max and maybe maybe I wanted to get to this conversation so that's fine yeah but it doesn't feel like HBO at least in the sense of HBO pushing the boundaries pushing forward trying to be the biggest splashiest most cutting edge

most award-friendly material. This feels like a show that could run for six or seven years or longer like the original Perry Mason show did, and everyone would be fine with it. It would attract its audience, and it would be what it is, which to me seems more, I don't want to say like down market, but it seems more mass market like HBO Max probably is positioned to be. So less hardcover fiction and more mass market paperback. And by the way, Chris and I love mass market paperbacks.

Absolutely. But it does potentially feel like it's in the wrong bucket. But usually when you're reading a mass market paperback, and this isn't a blanket statement because there are things in Stephen King or there's things in all sorts of really pulpy, page turnery entertainment, first of all, that are art. And second of all, that are grotesque and are difficult and are uncomfortable, which three words that I would use for various moments of this show.

I think that there is a snappier, breezier, version of this show somewhere inside this first episode. You can see it in the scene between Lithgow Rylance and Matthew Reese in that office when they're sort of taking stock of what they're going to do next. And the cases, as it said, it's got Rattitat dialogue. It's got kind of like a, this is what we do. And you can kind of see exactly what you're saying, the bones of a procedural. The bones of every three weeks, they meet together in this office to discuss the next case that they're going to do. But then on the other hand, you obviously have all of this stuff that's coming with his alcoholism,

with his ex-wife, with his child, with his time in the war, with whatever is going on with his parents and this dairy farm and Lupe, the woman who owns an airport in the middle of, you know, all this stuff that's going to be kind of chewed on. And I will be, I can't say that I'm like really,

really excited to watch more of this, although I do think I will, but I'm almost watching more of it to see how they, which one do they choose or if they just never do. Yeah, I think that's well put, Because for me, I mean, what I love about this world and this style of storytelling comes straight from Chandler. And that vision of old Los Angeles and the wisecracking rye gum shoe, who's also drinking a lot of rye whiskey, maneuvering through the different levels of society with the same jaded eye.

And Matthew Reese is ready to play that part. And whoever did the costumes, who I wish I should call out, I'm trying to look on the IMDB page because they're beautiful. the leather jacket, the hat, it's there for the taking. And the thing about Reese that is so good is his ability to be still with emotion and hold camera, hold frame, hold attention, but also just raise an eyebrow a touch.

And you're on his side. It's a little bit of the Han Solo gene. You know what I mean, that we're always looking for in our protagonist. That version of it is there. That version is also not necessarily in fashion because I think an assumption is that's what classic noir did well, like bogey. And what we can do now is actually show you a dead baby

with his eyes stitched open. And so that's what you're going to have to look at. People know, your mileage may vary on that. People generally know who have been reading me and listening to me for years know how I feel about that. But it does seem like a slightly missed opportunity. And in general, you know, I was thinking about that opening. And for people who haven't watched it, there's a dead baby that they show. And, you know, Alyssa Rosenberg, who's a cultural writer, for the Washington Post, tweeted something today basically being like, this show has a, basically has an uphill battle to win me over because now that I'm apparent, my bar for this is very, very low to be able to watch this stuff. And I completely agree with that. And now in

Seppinwall, another critic was chiming in saying that happened to him too. My feeling with that is you can show terrible things. Like, I'm not trying to censor TV. But that's the show you're making then. Yes. And then you're committed to that. And luckily, I thought the best scene in the, in the episode, other than the one you're talking about with the three characters was a scene with with Matthew Reese and with Gail Rankin,

who people might know as... Totally agree. Is this Charlie's mother? Yes, who is one of the great performers. 100% best scene in the episode. So this is the scene when Perry Mason wanders upstairs into the dead baby's bedroom, basically,

and encounters the mother played by Gail Rankin, who is super underrated actress. One of the best things about Glow. She plays Sheila the Wolf on that show. and I just think it's terrific and was really excited to see her in the show as well. And they share a moment and they share a cigarette

and there is genuine and palpable emotion behind the shock, which proves the caliber of the writing and the writers involved, but also made me think that they might be interested in that as well, which is a positive thing, frankly. Yeah, I was thinking, somebody, I was watching somebody on Twitter

was doing like a pretty cool breakdown of Silence of the Lamb, somewhere in film Twitter this weekend. And the things that they were talking about with Silence of the Lamb, about what doesn't get shown in that movie, which is a grotesque movie and has moments of of absolute horror, but a lot

of it is description. A lot of it is people reacting to horrors rather than being confronted with like showing the viewer the horror and leaving it up to the imagination what's going on. I thought that I got so much more out of that scene between

Charlie's mother and Perry Mason than I did at the multiple shots of a dead baby. You know, and it really is like we've been talking about making the uncomfortable palatable and how to especially in regards to i may destroy you which i think got moved to monday nights after going forward so we'll be discussing that like probably on our thursday shows moving forward if we do i you know i i've been marveling at i may destroy you taking one of the most horrible things that can happen to a person

and still constructing a compelling television show around it this is equally you know this is this is this is another horrible thing that could possibly happen to a person. It's really like, like you're saying, it's like once you introduce that and once you start playing around with that imagery,

it's on you to live up to it. I mean, we talked a lot about zero zero zero earlier in this season, which has absolutely fucking horrifying imagery. Absolutely horrifying. And I think sometimes people misconstrue it of like being like, oh my God,

dude, did you see that? That's not what we're saying. But they actually like, earned it and paid for it. You know, they understand that all of the, and it went towards the worldview that the 00-0-0 was putting forward as, this is what we think is actually going on here, you know, in the world of this show.

In Perry Mason, I'm not sure they can do that, and I'm not sure if they will. Yeah, and I'm not sure if we want to see it because it's not just because our world is horrible, but we see Matthew Reese's sad sack face. We see his unfortunate circumstance. And so we already see him low, and the performance is so good. and the production design is so good, do we also need to see what he's seeing to understand his misery?

I mean, it's pretty clear. Like, the show and the performances paint a pretty good picture without the graphic imagery. And so we'll see. We'll see what happens. I have to say I also was a little bit taken out of it and confused when in that scene that we're highlighting

as the best of the episode, when Gail Rankin, as the mom says about her son, he loved, and I thought she said, triples. And I was like, that is a really weird stathead thing for a baby to feel about baseball. And I was like, that's even weirder for an eight month baby, eight month old baby to be like, get out of here with these like, you know, walk or home run. What are this? Like the one true outcome or two true outcomes. The three true outcomes or whatever. Yeah. No. Like this kid just wants someone with jets who hits like a, you know, just down the line. Yeah. And cheats it into third.

And has a nickname like slamming Sammy. Yeah. Yeah. Like that was wild. And then I found out at the end of the episode, it was that he like turtles. Turtles, yes. Which is still interesting, but kind of less head scratching. Close caption buttons right there.

Why don't we wrap up here and talk a little bit about Top Chef Fonle before we get into our interview with Melissa? So we're going to talk a lot about the finale and you'll hear a lot of our thoughts. But Greenwald, I wanted to give you what was like your takeaway from it. I thought it was a very good finale, but it was definitely like watching peak federal. where I was like, the only person that can beat Melissa is Melissa. Yeah, I mean, it was one of those episodes where the pleasure of watching it may have been extra textual, meaning it wasn't necessarily about what you saw on the screen, although what we saw

on the screen was really good and gratifying. It was really pleasurable because this has been such a joyful season to watch. I think that a lot of our listeners like us have found this show a solace or a balm during a really difficult time. And so knowing that this was like one last hurrah with people, contestants that we all really liked with a series of judges and guests that have all felt really appropriate and, you know, insightful. It was, it was really a nice night. Like I said, when we were recording the other week, I was just really, really, really looking forward to it. Yeah. Then you had one of those finalies where, thankfully, they didn't throw in any curveballs or wrinkles. It was just cook your ass off.

and everybody did. It was no, like you're going to get eliminated on the first service. None of that nonsense, which I hate. And we talk about this with Melissa, so we won't get into it here. They did the thing that they do where they made it seem like there was a crisis,

and I, of course, fell for it because I am Wiley Coyote watching the show every time. And so my heart rate definitely went up. But you remove that, and Melissa was coasting. I mean, she was just crushing it. And it was deserved. There wasn't a moment where I was like,

I don't think she's going to get this. I don't think it's going to break her way. Or maybe there's something that they're not showing us. There was only one dish that was criticized and it was Stephanie's. So we knew she was in third. And it really felt like it, here's the thing. It finished the way it felt like it was supposed to. Yes.

And in 2020, I'll take it. Absolutely. I really don't have much more to add to that other than it was a feel good finale across the board in so much as I felt like Stephanie and Brian both did things that either went against what people had criticized them for them before, whether it was Brian's lack of kind of soul in his cooking or Stephanie just maybe, you know, the suggestion that I think Stephanie was always kind of saying, which is that she was cooking above her head at a certain point. I thought that they both definitely belonged to be there. I was so happy to see them cook

against one another. It looks like it was an absolutely ecstatic meal. And I thought it was a great season. You know, I think at a certain point, it would be criminal for Melissa not to win. And once she kind of recovered from the camp challenge, as she talks about in our interview, I felt like it would be kind of like terrible for her not to win.

Yeah. But I thought it was like it was great to not watch her just absolutely destroy the field, but actually like play against them. Yeah, and it felt like they all, I mean, you don't get this often in reality shows that the guy who says he doesn't watch much, but I feel like this is an appropriate thing to say. you don't often get the right narrative arcs for your main characters.

It sometimes doesn't work out that way, whether someone gets eliminated or someone acts against character or something else is revealed. But exactly what you said, like watching Stephanie cook to a level that even she wasn't sure if she could achieve after the year plus that she'd had after the loss of her brother was moving and gratifying and we could see it and she expressed it. To see Brian Voltajio reach this pinnacle again. and seemingly be a piece with it. I'm sure he was annoyed,

but he definitely ticked off a lot of boxes that whatever few boxes remain unticked other than actually winning. Yeah. And then, yeah, like Melissa's are a community. Melissa was making truly a unique food. You know, and I think that that was what eventually it was great and unique food.

I mean, I've never tasted it, obviously, but it seemed that way. And I think that's what the judges were reacting to. Do you, okay, two quick questions before we get into our interview. would you like to be at the Padma Tom Gale cookoff dinner and what dish are you checking for? Shout out to Gail.

Yes, that's the right answer. Being like, here's the salad was high key funny. She was like, you're not catching me grill and shit. I am not cooking. She made a cool soup. I think she made that tart. That was dope. She didn't make the soup. Padma made the soup.

So she made the salad and the tart, right? Yeah. And I was just like, That would be your boy's move. I got, I got like some really, like, great local greens. Yeah. Guess what they have here? Chickery.

Guess what else they have? Olive oil. Please enjoy. And it was beautiful. And it's not even a slight at her ability. No, no, no, no. No, no role. Find your lane and excel.

Yes. I love that. Yeah. Second question. And this is something that we'll talk about during the, unfortunately, long, long, long, long, long, long off season that awaits us. A pap was said that they're looking for ways to make it happen. But yeah.

I'm sure they will. But even so. like at this point in a normal top chef year, they are already well on their way towards, you know, pre-production and casting and things, just in order to get it on in the same window. Do you think the show can successfully go back

to 15 all-new people after just the feel-good ratings growing season that it just experienced? Or do you think they need to figure out a way to successfully commingable newbies? like Charleston, where it's like a mixture of new and old. I think that that is something that serves Survivor really well, is to have that mixture.

I also think that like, you know, Top Chef has seems to also have become a place where people can foreground issues, charities, different things that mean a lot to them within the context of the show. So I wonder whether or not as it opens up its arms to that kind of thing, which, you know, it's not necessarily has been closed, but I think it's become one of the flagships of the culinary world if it wasn't already. And I wonder whether or not we'll get maybe big chefs that have never been on top chef before

who would be like, yeah, I'll do it. I'll do it to talk about my work doing this or whatever. I would probably at this point, I'm happy to see a whole new group of chefs. You know what I mean? I think because I've watched so many seasons in such a compressed amount of time, a batch of new faces would be great. You know what I mean? And I think that it would be really exciting. Yeah, I guess I agree with you. I'm spoiled by how good this season was. And I still feel like, you know, there must be, I could go back and look. There are chefs who weren't invited to this All-Star season that I would like to see more of. I feel like the Nini story is not yet

is not yet finished. Yeah. You know, there are people who I wished I could have seen even more of this year. But I think you're right. I think that the show has to have the courage of its convictions. And if they really have evolved and grown over time, there should be a whole new generation right there waiting for them, one that is in line with the types of stories they want to tell and voices they want to amplify. And so I am excited to see them try to do that at some point. But for the meantime, I can think of no better voice to amplify than the reigning top chef of the show and of our hearts. We were there from the beginning, I must say. The clubhouse's favorite. Yeah. She brought it home. It feels good. Feels good to talk to a champion.

We talk to Melissa King. Let's get into it. Andy and I are so, so honored to be joined by Melissa King, who is top chef. Melissa, we've been following your triumph. I feel like it was in the cards. Like, I feel like Andy and I, to the extent that we were handicapping this season, we're like, Melissa's to lose, Melissa's

to lose. But it was just still such an amazing finale and so amazing to see you finally take it home. So just congratulations from both of us. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you so much. It's been great. It's been a wild ride. I mean, I can't believe

Okay, so first of all, just full disclosure, we've been telling everyone this. So I've watched all 17 seasons and I'm a super fan. Die hard. Chris finally came around this year and has been watching back seasons in quarantine because some people have free time. Since quarantine started, I've watched like eight seasons, I think. Oh my gosh, I love it. Yeah. Did you watch the Boston one? Yes. Over? Okay. Yes. So I was very, very like, involved as, you know, narrative-wise, I was very involved in this season. And it was also obviously, Andy and I live in Los Angeles. So, so. it was like really poignant to watch this season in a lot of ways just because we were unable to go out clearly. Or eat at restaurants. Or eat at restaurants. But so, Melissa, let's talk a little bit about the finale itself and we can kind of work

backwards from there. Sure. One of the things that's so amazing about the finale is the fact that, you know, often you're asked to kind of play a whole other game if I can bring in sports metaphors, but it's like almost kind of the regular season versus the playoffs thing for, for sports where it's like, Can you describe how different finale cooking is and finals cooking is from regular top chef cooking? Oh, it's very different. You know, your finale cook, there are no restrictions.

You know, in a normal challenge, there's always like some sort of rule. Like you need to cook with prosciutto or you need to cook with parmesan. So when it comes to the finale, it's very free and very open-ended. And it's really just down to the four courses. and you're given no restrictions. And it's good and bad, you know, because sometimes having it be too open, you're like, there's too many things I can make.

Like, what am I going to do? So you really have to be able to focus and hone in on what is that story that you want to tell with those four dishes. What do we not see during the finale? Because obviously, even just for the casual fan who follows you on Instagram or Gail or Padma, we see these images that we've never seen before, such as the 30 to 40 other people who are there with you at all time,

and meetings that are happening in between what we do see. So just specifically in terms of the finale, which was an incredible finale, how much downtime is there between the shooting and the cooking is there? How much time is there for you to prep or think or rework? Or are you really just cooking and then eating Tom's quail and then cooking? There really is not much downtime in general. And it's not even just the finale. I think just throughout the entire season, it's pretty back-to-back.

challenges after another, which is why we look pretty worn down towards the end of the season and everyone looks just fatigued and tired. So yeah, not much downtime at all. But there are those special moments of, you know, being able to eat with, have Tom, Padma, and Gail Kupinner for you. And that was like a very memorable moment for me. And I love it because you don't ever let your guard down because even in that lovely moment when the wine is flowing, you're like, I'm going to steal that idea. I just felt inspired by the whole meal and being there that I originally was going to just like suvi the squab and then like pan fry it or pan sear it.

Melissa, that would have made Dario cry for bad reasons. Exactly. And then I was just thinking too much of like these French techniques. And then I saw what Tom was doing and I was like, this is like, why don't I just keep it rustic and keep it like really the way they would do it here in Italy and just and just grill it and get that really nice smoky char flavored onto it. So after eating Tom's squab, I just, yeah, I ripped the idea. I'm going with it. You and Leanne ended up being a good team, but I was curious, like, was Leanne always in Italy as an alternate or did she have to like hop a red eye when Gregory's back went out for her to

be there? Oh, that girl hopped a red eye. Yeah. She's a champ. She's a champ. You know, I mean, all of them did Malarkey, too. You know, it's just everything, all the decisions are made, you know, in the last moments because you just don't know where everybody is as far as the placement. And so Malarkey and Leanne really traveled from like the West Coast to get to Italy. Because maybe this was just the way that it was shown this season. But in my mind, in previous seasons, there was a significant gap in time between the shooting of the season. Yeah, don't you guys usually have like a couple weeks off before you guys?

go back to it? Usually yes. But this time, no. Yeah, it's just, again, it's one after another, you know, and just jumping right in. I was wondering whether or not, like, you often hear about, like, athletes sort of pacing themselves for, for the championship or something like that, knowing they want to be in peak performance right when it counts the most. Do you have a finale menu kind of in your mind as you enter the season, or do you feel like that's presumptuous? I just want to grind out every day because you went on such a heater for a while, then you had a dip, then you went back on a hot streak. And I was wondering when you kind of started to imagine that last meal. Yeah, I think around, it might have been either, maybe like around the Michael's Challenge.

I forget exactly the specific moment, but I was thinking of, you know, if I make it this far and I make it to the end, what are the dishes I want to present? And I had a very loose interpretation of what that was and I really wanted Italy to be a big part of the inspiration of the finale menu. And so I really, I let the supermarket, I let the farmer's markets guide me. And I really wanted to just, you know, incorporate a lot of that Californian side of my cooking where I tend to cook with what's around. I cook with seasonal ingredients. And so I try to adapt that to my finale menu. The finale meal itself seemed just like a beautiful experience for everyone. And the response from the table that we saw on TV was almost uniformly positive throughout.

I think at one point, one of the judges said, it's going to be a long judges table because everyone did so well. Was it a long judge's table? What was that night like for you? And what was the after service like? Did it stretch on for hours as I know sometimes it does? Or was it more, was it briefer? I mean, they're always long. They're always long because the judges,

really want to make the right decision and they want to know every detail of what happened. So they dissect your dishes and they ask you every detail of the good and the bad and what was your technique, what was your thought process. So they really take a lot of time to dive into those details. And the Peroni branding opportunity is flowing the whole time. Got to plug that, you know, throw it in there. But I mean, from what we saw, and again, I know we only see a tiny fraction of it, it seemed like only Stephanie was criticized at all for the one misstep with the dish with the Nyuki. Did you have any sense that you were still in the running while you were waiting and waiting

and waiting? I remember thinking that I had good feedback and that I knew I did well. I knew I was proud of what I created and that they saw my story. They saw my vision. But then Brian also had so much positive feedback, had, you know, nothing. technical or no big errors. So I felt that it was kind of coming down to me and Brian in those moments. But, you know, it's one of those things where they get in your head. So you just, it's anyone's game, really, you know. Because it gets in our head, too. I realize this, that after

watching and enjoying 17 seasons of this show, I am still the most manipulated person in the world, because they have this trick that they do where they will show something going wrong in the kitchen. And I've watched enough of the show to know that if they're showing, it either means total disaster or total redemption. But because it's a 50-50 binary, I never know. And so last week, you with a broken raft, and I'm like, that doesn't seem so bad, but they're making it seem like it's a crisis.

And then this week, again, with a tiramisu, were these as bad as they seemed? And were you surprised to see them hyped up. They were crises for me, absolutely. You know, there were crises for me because we're on a very tight time schedule of what we want to create. And I was really pushing myself to do, techniques that take a long time that really don't have room for error. And so making those

mistakes set me back on the timeline. And so I was absolutely panicking. So the Tira Merceau was really like if this works, this is either going to work or it's not and it's kind of almost out of my hands at a certain point. Pretty much. Yeah. My options were either keeping what we had made the first night or redoing it the next morning. I was wondering, you know, I've been, because we've been talking about the show so much over the last few weeks and really like so many seasons of it. And we've both remarked upon how I personally have a, uh, maybe more affection for the later seasons because I feel like the, uh, environment in which the chefs are cooking seems friendlier, frankly, and like a little bit more supportive and collaborative. And

you see people who are like, I don't want this person. Like if I can help this person, I want them to like have the most fair shot. And I was wondering, especially when it gets down to brass hacks, like in the finale. Does a competitive edge kind of emerge in the kitchen or even in those last moments? Are you kind of like still sort of pulling for friends of yours? Absolutely. The later, just because we become such good friends throughout the competition and we all respect each other so much professionally that it is hard to, you know, not uplift each other and not help each other through it. And so towards the end, I became very good friends with Brian and Steph.

And just to be there with each other, we were all rooting for each other and proud of each other. And, you know, helping each other too in the kitchen because that is the... Recording lip sync videos together. I mean, all of them. Exactly. As one does.

It's like we wanted each other to do well. And I think end of the day, we were just like, you know what, we're all winners. And whatever happens here happens. and we should all be proud. I have to talk to you about your arc from your first appearance on the show to what you've just accomplished. And I remember watching that Boston season, which had a lot of amazing chefs on it.

And really loving your cooking, really enjoying your personality on the show, excited to see you back for All-Stars. But I don't think anyone was prepared for the juggernaut that was unleashed this season. And I guess I wonder if you were prepared. And if so, how much of what we were seeing? And there probably isn't just one easy answer to this. But how much of what we saw this year was how you have personally evolved and developed as a person and a chef? And how much of it was reflecting on your first run and having a different perspective on, for lack of a better word, the game.

I think a lot of it was just my change of finding myself and finding my strength and the type of food I felt was important to showcase. You know, back then that was five or six. years ago and I was very shy. I was terrified to even like apply for the show and I was just in a different place, you know, of where my confidence was. And coming off of that season really taught me to embrace that fear and to, you know, just like have confidence in my food and and, and yeah, even just me and my voice. So I think moving forward from there, yeah, I just kind of went into this competition feeling like, you know what, I'm going to present my food. And if they don't like it, they can kick me off. You know, that was kind of my attitude was, you know, I'm going to cook the

prosciutto because even though everyone's telling me not to cook the prosciutto, I'm going to do it because it's going to taste awesome. So I just certainly had more confidence to just not second-guess everything and not get too wrapped up in the game. That said, what I thought was so unique and also really, really moving, not just entertaining to watch, was that every step you took this season really felt like an evolutionary step in your own voice. And it felt additive that each challenge, despite them being some pretty wacky challenges, felt like a natural step for your own cooking that became very clear even to those of us who can't eat the food. And I was thinking about that in comparison to the last All-Stars winner, Richard Blaze, who I imagine had to have been the person who you've dethroned as the winner

of the most elimination challenges in history. I mean, I really loved watching him and I admire him, but watching him on All-Stars, he felt like a technician, right? Like, it felt like he had figured out a way to McGiver each challenge perfectly. It didn't necessarily feel step by step. And so to watch you do this and to integrate each challenge as part of your voice was really, really something. And I guess it's more of a statement than a question, but I do wonder if that's something

that you were aware of, you know, as each. time when the challenges got harder, you found a way to make it about you and your food, not just about the game. It certainly was, yeah, it certainly did. I think as he mentioned, as each as I started winning one and then the next one, and I was really just staying true to my food and making these Chinese, like, hybrids. And I kept thinking, like, I'm just going to keep going with it because it's working, first of all, and it's also, it's representing me, and this is how I cook. And I'm not going to change that just because the challenge is like telling me to do something else. Was there, I think this is just a sort of process question, but did you watch this season?

I mean, were you kind of like, did you watch every week? Or were you kind of just like, I know what happened? Yeah, okay. So when you're watching, what was the most revealing or fascinating or compelling? non-you storyline or sort of moment that you saw this season. That maybe you didn't even realize like when you were on set was happening in terms of like whether it was somebody's experience or, you know, their confessional interview or even a dish that you maybe didn't even notice the first time around.

About me or like... Oh, no, about other, for stuff that happened to other chefs on the show. Oh, I see. Like things that I didn't know in reality. Yeah. I mean, we're, again, we're also close. We kind of all know each other's stories. Like I know Kevin with his illness in the past and Stephanie with her brother.

But I think in those moments of real life when you hear that, it was extremely triggering for all of us and emotional. There was a lot of crying this year. And it's also genuine. And then watching it again play out to like the whole world is a whole other thing. But I wouldn't say that there were any major big surprises, though, because these are all things I knew about these people. Was there anything about watching Restaurant Wars

and the way Gregory picked his team, which is something Andy and I basically... This is all I want to talk about. Completely lost it over that because we were like... I remember feeling a little bit, you know, a little bit... What's the word? I don't even know what the word is. Maybe jealous.

Deeply insulted? He felt away about it. Yeah. Mortified? I mean, I turned to my wife. and I was like, Gregory is going to pick Melissa and they're going to steamroll everybody. That's what I thought we was going to happen.

I was very surprised. But then, you know, looking back on it and, you know, he made the right decision to go to pick a front of the house person first because we knew everyone would fight for that person to have to be on the team. So picking Malarkey first was, I think, the right thing to do.

And then unfortunately, he lost me after that to Kevin. Right. There was incredible, I mean, it was incredible TV. And it was, I'm still not over. It was the first time I gasped. Neither is 17 years of the show. It was wild. And so after that, after Restaurant Wars, which was an incredible episode and must have been

a pretty wild experience, you went on, you had kind of a dip or a lull. Yeah. I think Saladgate was just a week later. What is that like in the moment? I mean, we're almost jokingly asking you if it was because he picked Malarkey first. I can't imagine that it was. But how does that feel to be on top? then have a lull and then somehow claw your way back. That was like heart of a champion stuff.

And that was really amazing. Yeah. I mean, it was hard because I think at that point, I was getting tired. Yeah, I'm not going to lie about that. I was getting pretty fatigued through the competition at that point. Everyone was. Restaurant Wars is sort of that one thing that breaks everyone. So then to roll into the Pally Mountain Challenge and sort of be present, I honestly kind of hated that challenge. least favorite. I felt it really set us up for failure in a lot of ways by creating so much food and having extremely limited resources.

And, you know, at the day, I would have hoped to shine a little more. But I kind of lost, I just didn't have enough time. I was focusing so much of my energy on that conji. And then I kind of just fell off with salad. For what it's worth, I had a friend who was there. And she said, I asked what she thought of the food. and she said, honestly, there were a lot of mimosas. That was the first thing.

The second thing she said was, I remember the kanji was good. That's the only two things she remembered. So just so you know. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. Because I, yeah, again, did not enjoy that challenge and never want to think about it again. Sorry, we're done. No more questions about that.

No, I do think it was kind of illustrative because you were, you, I think you said something around that challenge where you're just like, you know, I'll take the salad. No big deal. Like, you know, you were kind of like going with the flow rather than really like dictating what you want it. And I thought like the contrast between that moment and the finale where you're like, I know what I want to cook and like Leanne's going to go with it. I was wondering if one could have happened without the other basically. I mean, I certainly learned my lesson at Pally Mountain. That was where I started realizing like, I should not be playing so nice.

You know, this is, you know, this is for real here. And I suffered from it and ended up on the bottom with that one because I kind of just let all the ingredients get poached from the kitchen. But I think I also, I can't remember the timeline, but I may not have realized that the kitchen just had nothing in there, you know, going in. I felt confident like, oh, I can make a salad out of whatever's left over. And then, yeah. Lettuce and grapes. It was like romaine. Yeah, yeah.

Romaine. So this might be difficult for you to comment on considering you were a part of it. But one of the things that we talked a lot about during the season is it felt like there was kind of a watershed moment for the show. And in its own way, which is, you know, the show is it's kind of a microcosm, maybe an artificial microcosm, but a microcosm for the food world and kitchen, the culinary industry as a whole. And for me, it was the L.A. Philharmonic challenge. And there was something really powerful to watch that Brian Vultagio basically sublimate his vision to Eric. And Eric used to be, you know, work for Brian. And in that challenge, he was like, well, but Eric has something really interesting to say, and he brings different, different culinary tradition to this, and I'm just going to let him steer this ship, and he steered it really well. Similarly, like you and Kevin, you know, you brought that cabbage, and you brought the same sort of Chinese potentially kind of fusiony direction to it. There was something interesting to watch these white male chefs kind of listen to other chefs, chefs of color, women chefs in the kitchen. And I, you know, maybe it's the optimist to me, but it has

felt like over the seasons, Top Chef has begun to acknowledge slow but necessary changes in kitchens in general. And that moment felt like a really important one for me in the course of the series, to be honest. Sure, sure. And I think like you kind of touched upon it earlier about how the earlier seasons were very selfish and people fighting for themselves and just like this. It was a different environment than what we've seen over the last few years, especially since my first Boston season. And I can only speak from my own experience on the show, but I have felt, I do feel that Top Chef has done a really great job,

diversifying the cast, making sure that there are different pockets of representation. And then, yeah, and then moments like what you just mentioned, which I never actually didn't even think about, you know, like pairing up with Kevin and Eric with Brian and how that influenced the end results. But I do feel the show has done a great job. And hopefully we'll continue to carry that sort of representation of other marginalized communities and cultures out there.

What's the bubble like? So what extent when you guys are all living together? What's your contact with the outside world? Do you get to watch TV? Nope. What do you do? And how does that affect the cooking? You hang out with each other and you cook.

And it's really fun, actually. You know, I mean, we're exhausted, but, like, end of the day, chefs, for a lot of us, our release is cooking when we're stressed. And so Nini, I remember was baking pies all day long. And Brian and Kevin were doing a lot of grilling. I was making, you know, a huge bowl of guacamole, like, every other night with 20 avocados. And I would just, like, put it right in the middle of the kitchen with bags of chips.

And it'd be gone by the end of the day. And so there's just so much, like I guess the food, you know, the food was really that thing that brought everyone together in the home. So you are top chef and we love saying it. We're going to say it again. Thank you. How did you keep the secret for six months? Did you, I feel like the minute you got off the plane. Right?

I mean, you must have gotten off the plane from Italy. I feel like there was like music playing. You must have had a swagger and you couldn't tell anyone. It is the hardest thing to keep. First of all, I can barely keep normal secrets in my life. And then to keep a secret as big as this for seven months is it's torture, a complete torture. Yeah, but I'm just lucky that I'm glad that that part is now revealed to the rest of the world and that I can actually celebrate this moment.

Yeah. And enjoy it. Do you have to like tell everybody, look, just don't ask? Yes. Yeah, I'm just like, just watch the show. Yeah. That's kind of my answer for everything. Like, no spoilers here.

So unfortunately, the world that you are allowed to be open with this secret in is very different than the world in which you won the show. So we are now in a world where the restaurant industry is in deep crisis. People aren't able to go out. Yeah. Where are you right now with your own career? I mean, I know obviously the world is the world and that everyone's thinking about something larger themselves at the moment. But I know that you're making these sauces that I was unable to sell to get my hands on because they sold out. 30 seconds on Instagram. It was insane. Yeah. But what are your plans? And I guess what do you hope

them to be in this very uncertain time? It certainly, it keeps evolving. Let's let's say that. You know, I think initially it was like, oh, I'll take this money and reinvested into some projects, maybe open a restaurant or something like that. And then COVID happens. And I recognize the vulnerability of our industry. And, you know, even in a normal, when it's not times of a pandemic, restaurants have a very difficult time. And so you got to, you have to really be smart about where and when to open this restaurant. And so, you know, those plans are still in my mind, but I think a restaurant may have to be on hold for a bit, but not to say never, you know, but I think I'm focusing more of my attention towards, you know, the soft

cross line that I was just inspired to make because of quarantine and I was sitting around kind of bored like how can I continue to bring food to people even though I'm stuck at home so I just started small batching these sauces and recognized there was such a high demand for it. So yeah, I would like to continue to make that and bring it on a larger scale and invest some of that money in there. And then, you know, prior to COVID, my company is, is, The work that I do is very event-related and people-facing, and I lost a lot of that, or all of it. All my events were canceled for the entire year. And so I did have this moment of panic of what am I going to do?

Because I'm in the same position as all these people that have restaurants, and I'm suffering there. So luckily, you know, the show, I won a good amount of money. I can't complain about that. but I have sort of evolved my model of these events and brought it to the virtual world. And, you know, with virtual cooking classes and seminars that you can sign up for on my website. Have you gotten used to that? I love it, actually. I really, I felt like quarantine was making me feel very lonely and isolated. And then doing these seminars made me feel so much more connected to people.

Yeah. And I love teaching. And so it kind of brought that side of me back because I used to teach in my past. So just being able to cook and teach people how to be better home cooks at home, it seems very valuable to me right now. And also I've been tying a lot of charitable acts to these cooking classes because I feel it's just such an important time right now. And I should probably be starting to look more inward and try to be a lot of.

better human. And so I've been trying to attach a lot of charities to these things that I've been working on. That's awesome. We appreciate it. We just want to congratulate you. And thank you for your time. You were so thrilling to watch during what has been a difficult time for everyone. I mean, you were cooking with such style and grace and intelligence. And it was a pleasure to watch. Yeah. I appreciate it. And we don't care that it worked out. Gregory, always should have picked you first. I think we all know that. I'm glad you said it out there. Yeah. I can't tell them these things, We'll say it to his face if he ever gets back to me on a DM.