The Watch - ‘Pluribus’ Episode 6 and ‘The Chair Company’ Season 1 Finale

Episode Date: December 5, 2025

Chris and Andy talk about the news that Charlie Hunnam and Daniel Brühl are joining Matthew Macfadyen in ‘Legacy of Spies,’ an upcoming MGM+ series based on John Le Carré’s George Smiley spy novels (2:18). Along the way, they check in on the Warner Bros. Discovery bidding war (11:02). Later, they discuss ‘The Chair Company’ Season 1 finale (20:17) and ‘Pluribus’ Episode 6 (28:15). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Rod. and I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line from the Westgate Casino. It's Andy Greenwald. I'm actually on the Eastgate Casino. I'm far to the east of you, my brother. You finally went home to Mother Russia? I mean, it's on the table.

You know, as I've said to you before, my colleague with whom I commute from my job here often says that when the trains go awry, it's Putin's fault. And let me tell you, the great. The great game has never been played like it was played today. You're catching me on a real heater. Today, Andy, we're going to talk pluribis, and we're going to talk about the chair company, but I'm really glad you brought up Putin because I have another bit of news for you at the top,

which is Cold War-related. Before we do that, though, the Watch at Spotify, the Cold War, it's never been over. I have been sleeper selling this whole time. Before we get started, though, the watch at Spotify.com to email us. Rear-Dash TV is a channel on YouTube where you can watch us. can also watch us on Spotify where I hope you listen to us. And you can hit us up on Instagram at the watchpod underscore. Andy and I are still remote for this week and next week, but we'll be back

in person after that when we'll be doing our end of the year spectacular, including our best of the year, best TV shows, best TV shows of the year. And I, and I would imagine our best episode of TV for the year. Where does Rachel Reeves fall on your top 10 list? The Chancellor, checker of English? Yes. And what is she doing wrong? She did stamp. People aren't happy.

They're not happy. She was basically like, it's going to be cool. Read my lips, no new taxes. And then someone leaked her draft budget that was like lots of taxes. And it's really interesting because people don't love it. Is that like that it was a strike through. And it was like no bad ideas in a brainstorm. What if more taxes?

And let me tell you, they're not happy about it here. I'm sorry to hear that. I'm sorry to hear that. That our podcast has lacked and I'm here to bring it. Well, Andy, what if I told you I had some entertainment news that might cheer up our British listeners and really any listeners who were affectionate about the military industrial complex and espionage? Say less. Let's go.

We've got some casting news in the George Smiley expanded universe that, you know, we talked about a little bit when Matthew McFadden got announced as the next George Smiley in John LeCarray's son's efforts to take his novels and fully take them to streaming television and blow out the whole world of that. The first series is going to be Legacy of Spies and it's going to be on BBC and MGM Plus. It will adapt the spy who came in from the cold along with the 2017 novel Legacy of Spies, which is sort of a prequel sequel to Spy as well as got some Tinker Taylor. in there. McFadne obviously is playing George Smiley, but they have cast the role of Alec Lemus

with Charlie Hunnam. Okay. A little bit beefy. Cast the role of of Jen's Felfielder who is the sort of East German counterpart to these guys as Daniel Brule. Love it. And only

announcements on the behind the scene side, you know, Stephen Cornwell, who's David Cornwell, which was John LaCarray, was David Kimmel. Cornwall's pen name. Stephen Cornwell is co-writing the series with Clarissa Ingram, but I did notice that Graham Yost,

who we folks will know from Justified, from Silo, from the screenplay for speed, lots of movies and television over the last 30 years, is working as an executive producer on this series. So I'm very excited. I hope this works out. I was thinking today about how we've never had it better. There are so many spy shows on the air.

Like, really, there's very little time of a calendar year where we don't have a cool espionage show on. We have never had it better in so many ways in our life. I mean, train commutes aside, we've never had it better. No, it's true that the spy genre, like a few years ago, felt a little fallow. Do you think we had anything to do with this resurgence? Would you like to get your flowers? Would you like to do a lap? No, I mean, you know, there are times where I feel like we've had an impact on, you know, decisions to read

to renew series or, you know, maybe like the people getting, like there's a little bit of uptake on a series. I think we can take credit for some of those things. Obviously, I know you dine out on leftovers season two, taking a huge creative leap because of your criticism. I do not. Okay. Sidebar.

I do want to talk about your spy question. But like, honestly, we are now, it's coming up on January, which is shocking, which will mean 14 years deep in this game. Okay. What do you think we can point to tangibly as things that have happened because of us in the industry? I will give you two, and one of them involves the word industry. And that's it. Okay?

I think that unquestionably, we are credited with the absolutely infuriating opening to the leftover season two. Proud of that. I do not take any credit for the creative resurgence of the show. second, I believe that we played a small part in industry getting renewed for season two. I feel like that is canonical. Beyond that, what can we really point to? Do you know what I mean?

I give you a good example, a great example. If people go back to the archives, they'll hear us often talk about our love for Colin Farrell, but our exhaustion at seeing how good looking is. And I think Casey Blois and the folks at HBO, Warner Brothers, listened, and they were like, let's get this guy in the Penguin suit. Let's get this guy, make him a disgusting brother. That's good.

You know, I'm happy to help. Colin Farrell, you can't be so charming and so good looking. Do you think that there would have been a, the slap expanded universe if we had just pulled our punches a little bit, pulled our slaps, if you will? Do you know what I mean? Do you think that we made a little, little too much of that, thus ending? Because it's not just the slap. I do feel like that there was a small cottage industry.

10 years ago of entertainment spawned by uncomfortable collisions between adult hands and children's faces on playgrounds. I feel like that that was a genre of play and everyone's like, oh, it's quite thought-provoking, you know, it wasn't just the slap. I feel like there was a play on Broadway around that point. Maybe I'm, maybe I'm mistaking things. But like, I feel like now if the slap has been out, it would have to have much more of a true crime bent. You know, it's like the kid gets slapped and then the father of the kid who gets slapped goes on a killing spree in a suburban town where nobody expected something like that to happen? No, no, or that like the origins of the original slap was like a Lovecraftian, like,

Sathulu kind of like deep dive. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's something to, I wish, I don't know, I'm starting to feel, maybe I'm just reaching that stage of life. It's a little autumnal. Like, I want to know, like, what we did. Like, other than had a good time with each other. Yeah, I mean, that's not only thing matters.

You know, you should do the La Karay shit. Like, you should just tell people that you got night manager renewed. That you were like, there is another night. needs to get managed, and you did not. Night manager is a longer break than stranger things, you know? I guess it's just waiting for that Loki schedule to clear up. Yeah, I don't think it's the same because I think Tom Hiddleston has remained roughly the same size. So I feel like there's not any night surprises.

Anyway, back to your point, very exciting. LaCarray Expanded Universe is fantastic. I do feel like that you could probably, if you took all of the actors in roughly our generational cohort, you could basically, you could create like a little desk and they could approach the desk and you could say McMurtry or LaCaree and then you would just like hand them a ticket and then they would just agree. You get Streets of Laredo. You have this. Yeah. Like you can get yeses. You can get to yes very quickly if you do the things that you and I and people who are like us like. So great. It's good for our podcast. I don't really have a lot of other headlines for you.

Just before we started recording, it was announced that, Brian Coppulman and David Levine sold a straight to series order to Netflix basically making a show about a Las Vegas casino and that Martin Scorsese will be involved presumably as an executive producer. It is, I think this will be cool. They haven't made a series since billions. I'm a big fan of Copplin and Levine's writing as well as Brian personally and David personally in the times that I've met them.

I will say it's very funny when a streaming show basically has the same conceit as an old TNT or network show like Las Vegas. Like Vegas. Yeah, exactly. And this is just, you know, if they make boardwalk empire but set in contemporary times, I'll be pretty fired up. If they make any part of the history of Las Vegas, I think it would be very interesting. I'm not sure if contemporary Vegas, you know, really fascinates me as much as 70s or 70s or 70s. 60s Vegas? Contemporary, present-day

boardwalk empire was Jersey Shore. That's true. You have to be careful what you wish for. So this is confirmed present-day Vegas. It hasn't been, it didn't get confirmed that, but that was the implication. It's about,

it'll probably be, it seems to be about a casino president who's, you know, fighting off, putting out fires left and right. But I don't know what, like,

is it vacancy rates of hotels post-COVID? Like, what are... No, no, no, here's the thing. Here's my pitch. It's all about, loosely fictionalized version of the independent journalist John Ralston, who every four years gets, gets libs super living out about like where the union vote is trending in the,

in the, in the state, right? Yeah. Like, that would be gold again for us. Gets lives super lipping out. Like, look at the man in the mirror, brother. I'm wearing all blue today, baby. We only lost that Tennessee district by nine. Let's go.

Vibes are elite. Did you donate to that ladies campaign? No, but I did delete a number of emails, so I did feel involved. Do you what I mean? Like, somehow they've still got the digits after all this time. So we have that. DiCaprio did an interview with Deadline and did confirm his participation in Heat 2. Kind of, like I'm fairly certainly that stands as a confirmation.

No confirmation on which role he's playing, whether it's Christian Hurliss or Neil McCauley. So we continue to wander around in the darkness on that one. Can I ask you for an update? Because you're, again, your boots on the ground in Tinseltown. Like you're reporting on the industry. It's true. Chrissy Supreme over here. Any movement on the various Saudi wealth funds

and how much they're going to pony up for David Ellison to buy Warner Brothers? Like where is that shaking out? Really can't say, man. I mean, I was potting with Sean yesterday. And he was getting texts being like it looks like it looks like that. Was he really? Yeah.

I feel like it's actually now it's being talked about within the industry pretty openly about the different bids and the different permutations. Did you, have you decided who you're rooting for? I know you need a passion point for your, you know, any story you have to have a rooting interest, a fandom. Well, look, I mean, you guys know that like there's conflicts of interest in the Olivia Nizzy sense. And then there's conflicts of interest like your boy. You know what I mean? Like I'm out here in England working for Warner Brothers. I have something with Universal.

My parents have Comcast Xfinity. And frankly, I have refused to cancel my mom's Xfinity service. And frankly, I am really on the wrong side of a lot of Saudi wealth funds. So I'm not the right person to ask about this right now. That said, I do find the entire thing so distasteful. I don't know if that's just me like holding my, like holding my nose about like contemporary capitalism, but I find the whole thing so gross that I kind of feel like the most, the more interesting path, you know, our buddy,

Shiel Kapati always says he's not an Eagles fan, he's team content. I do think one of the more interesting paths would be if somehow the universal bid wins out because the universal bid is very, very explicitly like we don't want half of this business. Yeah, we want everything. We want, we want the studio and basically not to reiterate for people who are worried about this stuff. It's Edwardo from the social networks coming for everything. No, it's the opposite. It's the opposite. Saying that the current version of Warner Brothers Discovery was going to split and now they've decided to sell. And what they were going to split was the basic cable channels from the more profitable studio and HBO.

And the universal bid is we want the, we want the better half of that split. We don't want the cable channels, right? We just want the streaming service in the studio. Campbell Channel is to worry about, yeah. And so then the other thing is that, you know, it's possible that our very straight and narrow Justice Department would not like that, which would, which would, which would, which would, which would tied up in the courts. And if there's one thing that these last few months have proven is that the courts are really

respected. So it could be interesting. Could be interesting. Okay. Well, we'll keep our eye on that developing situation. Any other news, like talk of the town type observations you've got. from the UK while you're over there? No, I'm totally useless.

I did turn on the television in hopes of seeing one of my two favorite shows. My first favorite show, as you know, is Canal Bow Diaries. It was not on. My second favorite show is when Jamie Oliver does anything, except from November 10th through January 3rd, it's just episodes of Jamie's One Pot Christmas. Sure. And he just says the word Christmas over an

over again. No, that's every episode, but this time it's like festive corgette for the festive season. So that's uninteresting to me. I did find an episode of Great British Baking Show, which was so niche. It was a holiday special from 2021 in which the cast of the series It's a Sin compete. Oh, yeah. We love that show, but it turned on. And I was like, is this a show that we liked on the watch? Are these actors

from a show we liked on the watch? Or is it just England? Couldn't tell. You know what I wanted to ask you about? Couldn't tell. It reminds me that we, I think we both had that on our top 10. Great show. The year came out for this last 10, 10, 15 days before we do our top 10 of the year. Do you feel like there's any one series that jumps out that you're like, I really do want to get a couple of hours in on that before I do my list? I'm doing that.

I wasn't going to tell you because I was going to, because we're definitely, again, people know this. We're doing our top tens, I guess, in a week and a half probably, right? two weeks from. And it's a little chalk. Like I think you and I will likely have. Six or seven are like non-negotiables. Absolutely. More so. And I was comparing it to last year, when last year, when I threw three body problems on there for Lulls, like there's no space for that this year. Like a show that I love that we have talked about on this podcast will not make my list this year, which is a sign of good health, I think, for the industry. But there's a show in particular that I have, I ran it back. And I want to surprise.

I'm going to hit you with it, but it's going to be real high on my house. You have talked about it, but you revisited? We didn't finish it. We didn't finish it. And I'm all the way back in. And I can't wait to talk about it. But I've also done other research projects on the plane. It's like this is a perfect time to watch the paper.

And ready for my review? Sure. It's fine. That's my review. I have very, very goodwill towards it. But I do find it interesting that this is the third. series, separated by decade, of course, in the sort of the Greg Daniels mockumentary family tree. And for all the good things about it, especially casting and stuff, and all the things that

they've learned from making the office and parks and rec, the main character modulation problem is still such a thing. Because I'm now eight episodes into the 10 episode first season, and they do not know what to do with Donald Gleason's character, Ned. Like, do not know what to do with him in the same way that Michael Scott was really tough to nail in the beginning and the same reason why the first six episodes of Parks and Rec are generally almost considered non-canon because Leslie was kind of annoying to people. So I do find that interesting that they haven't been able to figure it out. The track record suggests that they will figure it out, but I found that interesting. Currently airing on NBC, I think, which is interesting. I wonder how it's doing on terrestrial television,

whether that's something that's helping it or giving it a little bit of a second life. in the second season, I don't think, is that far away. Do you think the Saudis are sweating it? They're like, oh, they've got the paper making, that's going to help the universal bid. Can you worry about that? For me, I think I've been going, trying to go to some of the more far-following streaming services

that we don't often discuss the work from. Oh, really? Yeah, checking out Cooper Raves, Helen Harper on Mooby, as well as Joe Wright's, Musilini, son of the century on movie, which is been... I literally think you're making this stuff up.

I know. How is this place? did a series about Mussolini on a movie. Which side did he fall on that question? Well, we'll have to wait for our best of the year to find out. And also just checking out some of the Britbach stuff, which is ironic since you're in England, but, you know, watching the new season of blue lights. I really could have used a little bit of Mussolini on my commute from Watford today. I've got to be honest with you.

Feel free to cut that. Just a little bit. He famously was pretty good with rail transit, okay? Okay. Dealer's choice today, Andy, I can't wait to talk to you about Pluribus, but I also, you know, we'd be remiss if we didn't discuss the end of chair company. And I was discussing with Kai before you signed on that I had a late breaking chair company. Did you? Yeah.

I found that storing up several episodes and then watching them successively, help me feel like I was in the rhythm of the show a little bit more. Okay. I'm glad you did that. Can I just also just lay down a marker? I know that you talked about Landman already this week with Mallory. I did. I know. With Bill Simmons, yeah. Did you? Who had a spicier take on Roadhead between the two of them? It shouldn't surprise you to know that it was Mallory. I does not. Here's what I think. And I know that us talking about Landman Weekly is potentially controversial with some of our listeners. I don't think it's as controversial as it is for me who has agreed to watch Landman. Who's trying to turn Tennessee blue. Yeah.

I'm trying to understand the other side, trying to get aft and over the finish line. The point is, I put in the hour to watch this episode. And so I feel like I need to turn it into content. It's not transactional, man. You can just watch TV because you love it. Chris, I didn't want to bring this up, but I understand that you spent three and a half

watching an avatar film yesterday, and I still can't get you to fucking watch a Miyazaki movie. So all I'm saying is, all I'm saying is some people are out here. Yeah, doing the work. Trying to do the work. So we can save it for the end. I think you set us up nicely with a little chair company. So why don't, why don't you explain to me more how you set the mood, set the tone, as your friends and Shoresy would say, in order to get yourself back into it?

You're not watching Shoresy, are you? No, I would save it for a viral moment in person if I was. I let go of the string on chair company, which nobody needs my recovery documentary here with this show. It's beloved. It's very popular for what it is. It's been renewed. Tim Robinson obviously is kind of a unique and inimitable voice in comedy right now. And I think it just took me a little while to adjust to those jokes being stretched out over the course of a 30-minute episode.

rather than in the more the more sort of in the fractions of it, I think you should leave. And when you let go, you know, when you put the blast shield down on the bridge. Hands up on the roller coaster. You're just like,

this little kid shooting this old guy in the hotel lobby is really funny, man. See, I'm interested in you saying this because you ruined my dad's life. And he pulls out a 3D printed gun. See, but what's interesting about this, this is why I love your brain here and you're zagging, because I actually, when watching the finale, and I love the show, I, Kai made me internet famous for loving the show, and I respect him for it.

Yes. I thought that the opening of this episode, and this is a season in which our main character, Ron, has been planning his daughter's wedding, and then we open at a wedding of people we've never seen before, and then a drunken man being told that he should become a professional songwriter, and then the man who encourages said drunken man gets shot by a child, I was like, I kind of see Chris's point. This may be a bridge too far. I thought that may have bumped you because it was just more and more and more and more. Well, no, because it is kind of like the, I hate talking about comedy in this way because it's just sounds so mechanical, but when

you're describing a comedy show aside from just listing the jokes that made you laugh, it's hard not to sound a little bit schematic with it. But I think that it's the Will Ferrell, Austin Powers joke where he gets thrown into the fiery pit, but he just keeps going like, please, please somebody help me. And it's like funny. I'm very badly burnt. That it's not funny.

Then it's really funny. Then it's not as funny. And then it is hilarious. And that's kind of how I feel about some of the rhythms of this show where it's like, there will be five minutes where I'm like, what the fuck am I watching? And then he'll just do one thing. he'll react to Barb in one way or like make a face. And I'm I'm IRL-L-O-L-L-Ling.

Here's the thing that I might even suggest to you. And we've talked around versions of this. What if the show isn't really totally a comedy? Well, this is what I think I was worried about earlier in the season where I was like, I think they think that this is like, well, this is like Twin Peaks the Return or something. I mean, you brought that up. I think it's the best comp. I think that this is the closest.

television has ever gotten to having the spirit of Twin Peaks. Just full stop, I think because of the comedy, I think because of the extremity of the oddness, I think because of the underlying sense of horror in the banal. And in just in terms of an absolutely unwavering aesthetic vision that Tim Robinson has with Zach Canaan, Aaron Trimberg, who's directed a bunch of the episodes clearly in on it as well. Like the degree to which they, like in the scene in this finale, when everyone at the, not the chair company, at Ron's company, they're sitting around the table talking about what to do about Ron. It's so fucking funny, dude.

And Lou Dyn Phillips is just getting more and more pressed. It could have really hurt him. It's eight absolutely weird randos who are not necessarily, quote, unquote, and I say this with love and respect, traditionally good actors, but they're not bad. And then there's also Jim Downey from Jeff Epstein with the island fame, by the way, fun documentary on Jim Downey on Peacock right now that I watched. That would have been a bit better if you'd been a fun documentary about Jeffrey Epstein that I just watched.

You know, I heard Joe Wright has a, has an Epstein series coming on movie, and you don't really know which side of the island he's landing on. And Lou Diamond Phillips. And it's just just watching aesthetically what they have done with this casting, with this tone, with this rhythm. It is, there's such commitment to the bit. And like, I would, I would love to talk. talk to those guys, for example, but I don't know if you notice, they did no press. They went on

Seth Myers together, but otherwise they're like, look, this is what we, this is what we do. It's like underdogs winning an NBA game and just pounding their chest and leaving the court. Like, we really do this. Yeah. I don't know. I just definitely, I loved every second of it. I was glad it got the early renewal because there was no resolution whatsoever. There is very weird To me, it's like, I don't even know, are we still talking about the chairs? Now we're talking about a telekinetic woman in his office and her boyfriend who wears a baby mask? Uh-huh. At their old high school, yeah.

Yeah. And it's revenge for something Ron, like some basically, like, one remarkable thing that Ron did when they were in high school where he spit a gummy bear up into the air and it landed in her cleavage. And Mike is a troubled. if sympathetic man who has someone... The Mike thing killed me. The Mike's trying to get with the daughter, like the girl who has his heart, or is it the heart? He has the heart of a man who died

and he showed up at the girl's wedding so that her father's heart could hug her and then he hit on the mother and then he hit on her. And he was like, the heart doesn't count. I love it. I love the commitment to the bit so much. And I just think that, like, we're on a different kind of ride. I think, and I don't think, I don't know if anyone who's not watched the show is listening to us rave about it,

but I'll say if there's even a percentage of you who are like, it'll be like when Detroiters hits Netflix, we'll just catch up with it and it's a funny hang, or even, I think you should leave. It's just a collection of really good jokes or even friendship, which I loved, which is an extended bit. They're doing something that is so completely different. they are not trying to stretch those bits into a show to see if it works. They're making a show that they are doing, they are fully committed to. I wonder whether the second season, so like another show that I think, you know, might show up in some people's 10 best lists.

I don't know if anybody on this podcast, but the rehearsal season two, which had like this, you know, central premise was still the same, but it was about a completely different thing. I wonder if that's, where this show goes. Will Ron just get into something else? Or are we going to stay in this kind of world

of anonymous benign office drones and Ron kind of getting obsessed with something for five minutes? How much of what's in the first season? Like the dog, the carvery, how much is transporting over to the second season?

What about Asher with the face mask? Is Seth going to get into RISD? It's expensive. It's expensive. When is Wendy's going to introduce its carvery concept for ham? There are a lot of pressing questions. But like, I don't think it's hyperbole to say that the HBO that we love that will soon be relocating to Riyadh is historically been in its best when it's been in the business of, hey, we are finding you at the right time when you are ready to grow with us. And whether it was like, you know, a David Simon on the drama side or a Danny McBride. Brian Ben Ben on the comedy side. Yeah. You might want to call a couple of those plays back.

But I'm just saying like, we're investing in you and you go and run with it. This is one of those. It really is. I love the show. The playoffs are here. And you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner.

Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for.

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predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. Okay, let's talk about a show that I'm fairly confident we'll be on both of our 10 best lists at this point. Which we haven't really had a chance to discuss in, I think we missed the previous episode. So the last time that we talked about it, was it Carol, please?

Was that what that episode was called? We didn't talk about the fact that the voice mailbox is Patrick Fabian, who played Howard on Better Call Saul. And it was a nice little Easter egg for fans as well as for Ray Seahorn. The other Easter egg that I didn't know from that episode was that the woman who says, may we save her life about Sosha at the end of the episode, apparently is the real-life EMT who saved Bob Odenkirk's life on the set of Better Call Saul. Oh, that's so funny. I just watch Marin do a video about, like, not do a video, but he was clipped when he was on a talk show talking about, like, talking to Odenkirk right after his heart attack. Odin Kirk sending jokes from the hospital.

Yeah. Let's talk broadly about where this show's at, and then we can get into the specifics of this episode that just aired. And also, like, the previous one, which are kind of tied together because it's Carol's discovery. First of all, I love the show. I am completely dialed in. I think these past two weeks have been among the best episodes of the season so far. And in fact, it really hasn't been a dip. What I particularly loved, and we can sort of zero in on this before we get into any bigger details.

But I love the way when you're watching a show made by one of the masters of the form in Vince Gilligan, but also just a master of tempo and expectation that the end of the previous episode, which is really like a hard cut from a gasp of horror or fear or discovery. There is the anticipation, right? And you were texting me about this, that, oh, next week is, quote, unquote, the big one. That the way that we engage with these prestige shows with limited season lengths, eight to ten episodes, is that inevitably there will be, quote, unquote, the one that explains things or flashes back or turns everything on its head. And it was all set up to be that.

And what I loved about this episode, this week's episode, is that it gave us that. It was a legitimately horrifying discovery. You completely understood Carol's reaction in the immediate term. And then also in the longer term, I'm just immediately driving with this information to Mr. Diabate in the casino. And then it does what this show does, which is subvert our expectations, which is turn down the temperature. which is to cause us to consider things from a perspective we haven't, knowing that we are a students of prestige television and how it works, but also be students of dystopia, right?

That there has to be a horrific twist in order for her quest to feel heroic or in order for us to have something to root for. And it wasn't. It was John Cena being like, look, we know it's a little bit gross, but we don't have any other, we don't have any better ideas. I thought everything that we eat people, we should just say. Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think everything that happens in.

is like one of the more perfect executions of a fake cliffhanger that I've ever seen. So often what will happen, especially in the era of binge streaming when you have, you want people to stay engaged with the season, is that you throw something in there. And this has been the same as it ever was since we've started potting. That you throw something in there in the last 10 minutes of an episode to that people click next episode on their streaming service. And Pluribus is not too good for that behavior. They put things at the end of episodes that are certainly like, I cannot wait until next week.

And at the end of five, Carol discovers this giant locker, this giant freezer in an agricultural goods facility. And she looks underneath a tarp and we are left to wonder for a full week. What could possibly be under that tarp is an alien carcass? Is it her, is it Helen? Is it all of her books? Like, what is it? Where were you with it? Like, I think the most obvious.

I think I was like, is it aliens? I really was like, is there a being that is running this kind of thing? That's just where my sci-fi brain took me, but, you know. Or like not to step on, well, there was another show that we liked a lot this year, sci-fi that might end up on our list in which there is a discovery that the people we see might be replicants, basically. That, like, maybe everyone is on ice and the others are recreations of them, something along those lines. The fact that the next episode, the sixth episode, picks up right after.

So we're not going to pretend like we're not going to do a flashback. We're not going to do somewhere else in the world. Like it's really Carol bursting out of this, the door of this freezer and then going right back in to film it. And then this whole mid-season gambit that they've adopted of Carol as a vlogger, I think, is ingenious because it's obviously like learned behavior from YouTube without explicitly referencing YouTube and the internet. But we get to kind of come to grips with it.

And the funny thing was is that when she did the reveal and I was like, I wonder what this is going to be because I can't really think of what I would myself be scandalized by at this point in Carol's journey. And she reveals that it's human body parts and I noted the

care and cleanliness with which they are restoring these people and their remains. And I think what the show is asking, and what the show is asking, and what this show is sort of somewhat about is that one person's dystopia is another person's utopia, you know?

Right? Especially this past episode with Diabate, reenacting Casino Royale in the Westgate and living in a harem of women and really obviously like having the time of his life whereas Carol is at this kind of end of a rope state of loneliness and despair and alienation.

and what Carol thinks is this like gotcha moment is in fact like this guy's like yeah I find it troubling but they do have a pretty good explanation for it you know and the show is kind of about how what I think what we used to think of as these sort of like universally agreed upon occurrences like what would happen if there was an alien invasion

what would happen if you know there was an outbreak of a virus in this world and we all had to deal with it. What happened in the last couple of years is I think we've shattered this idea of a collective response. We've shattered this idea of a collective experience. And this show is very slyly showing us how that happens. Even without the distortion of social media and the internet, it's like, well, I don't know. I'm actually enjoying myself in this experience. So it's not my obsession to reverse this. I think that's really brilliantly observed. I feel like one of the great communal fictions of like post-World War II culture has been like, we are just one crisis away from a

rally and cry. Like we could do this again. We can roll up our sleeves and make Rosie the Riveter posters and defeat evil again. And it's like, if we had to make jeans in this country, we could do it. No problem. Independence Day would happen if given the right spark, I guess in that case, the destruction of the major cities and Bill Pullman elected president. We could take care of the stuff.

I could get behind that. One of the many things that the last few years have proven to us is that none of these, these are all complete fictions, that like we are always going to be ourselves and our worst selves, and maybe sometimes we stumble towards some shared moment of enlightenment, but increasingly that's harder and harder to come by. We all know people, or maybe even parts of ourselves, that didn't mind aspects of the pandemic. Like there are parts of that that ring true that are so well represented in the show. I think the other thing that is so compelling about this past episode of particular,

was that Diabate isn't just, he's not written as a hedonistic lethario who is taking advantage, who is only taking advantage of a situation, because let's be clear, he is 100% taking advantage of a situation. But the underlying text of it that we see when she spends more time with him is that he does seem to understand the rules of the game he's chosen to play. Like he talks to them. He also has sex with many of them. But he also listens to their point of view and treats them as a collective, which is relatively advanced, I would say. Much more so than a hastily written version of that character ever would be.

A couple other points I wanted to make about these last two episodes, specifically six, is the old Aristotle Chestnut actionist character. and the idea, you know, obviously Gilligan has always been obsessed with process, has been delighted in showing the minute movements of a character as they put post-its on a wall or make meth or whatever it is that they're doing. But I don't know that I've ever seen him tie character to behavior in a more successful way than he is with Carol, because we have to talk about the Seahorn performance.

I was talking with Kai before we started the show, he was like, I cannot believe how much of this show is just her. On her. Yeah. Yeah, and is on her. And I'm starting to be mesmerized by the littlest things that this person is doing on screen. You know, how she exits her house, how she packs, how she waits, how she waits for that phone message to be over. The look in her eyes when she finds out that the other survivors have been meeting on Zoom without her.

her reaction when the Westgate billboard flashes that they understand and hear her, and they won't be doing stem cell research on her without consent, you don't need any flashbacks with Carol, because you kind of understand everything about her from her movements and her actions, and from like the little, you know, it's been interesting to go along this journey with her about her substance abuse issues and like her invoking heroin, when she drinks, how she drinks, like what happens to her when she drinks.

But everything that they're doing with her is such a masterclass in writing in that way. I think, and in performing, I think it's beautifully said, I think that like the point you make about the voice message, like one of the luxuries that being Vince fucking Gilligan buys you is that you see her calling again and you're like, well, they're not going to play the message again.

You can cut away from this, right? Yeah. But he's like, no, we're not going to cut away from it. And one of the reasons you don't cut away from it is because he can tell Apple what he wants to do with the show. But the other reason you don't cut away from it is because of the actor you have reacting to it. And one thing that I'm glad I have an opportunity to circle back to that we didn't mention two weeks ago is that when she does the, when Carol tests the sodium pentothal on herself, it is a master class in comedic acting that we have not seen her do. I think since Ray Sehorns Glory Days on the sitcom Whitney, which is when I first. became aware of her talents. She's super fucking funny.

And again, it's just she has a camera on herself, but we just have a camera on her. What do you, where are you, tell me about your feelings about Paraguay and that journey, because now these stories are clearly headed towards an intersection. Well, so that's a really good example of the A, B, test of it's okay when Ray Sehorne does it, but when in another performer,

It's not even about the performer. Let me rephrase what I'm saying, although I don't cut this, but I just mean you sit there watching him go through these dials and there is a little bit more of like an urgency of like, yes, but you will hit something that you can't explain or that will be like a radio signal, even though we don't understand what that radio signal is going to be.

I felt fine about it. What I'm really marveling at is did they shoot in Paraguay? Is this Albuquerque, but you know, with tile, like are they shooting on plates? Like how do they doing? Like where are they shooting the show? And I want to get to that in a second. But the final moments of episode six.

And this guy, I think that's his mother, has been bringing him the food the entire time. But maybe he couldn't quite see that it was her or maybe he did know that it was her. But his mother comes out of the shadows in Paraguay and tries to stop him before he drives off in his car that I do not think is going to make it to New Mexico. It seems unlikely, although he does have some maps. She's just like, what can we do for you? Just tell us and... Can we answer any questions? Yes.

And his reaction is, you're not my mother. My mother was a bitch. And that, first of all, like on a character spectrum, locates him right next to Carol. These are two very hurt people. And the skepticism that he has about this project that he's seeing, this idea of a collective, peaceful, harmonious society of people who are operating under one consciousness, even if they can represent themselves as loved ones or

whoever, you know, Carol doesn't have the benefit of having Helen showing up at her door. Who knows what her reaction would be if Helen was there. But this is the example of like, maybe be careful what you wish for because he's just like, my mother was meaner. You know, like this isn't the same. It's wrong. Yeah, this is wrong. And I thought that those closing minutes were just sublime, you know. And also, let's just say, this show looks fucking exquisite.

Like, they obviously have been getting so dialed over the last 15 years with how they want to shoot things in the Gilligan world and how they're going to look. And he's got in-house directors and talent that he recruits to do these things with him. But this show uses its budget. in such a wise way where the sets that they build or the locations that they choose to film and they let their actors

fully explore. And so they feel huge. Like maybe they got to shoot at Westgate, I don't know, or a different casino or however they did that, but it felt like they could have gone into one of a hundred rooms in that casino.

I felt like we could have followed that guy all over whatever city he's in in Paraguay. And it's just like, it's such an incredible use of like money for the point of creativity rather than just like, well, we'll just make some huge set piece soon. I also just to continue to be in awe. And I think we're going to talk about this in the year end episode as well inevitably. But like what he's choosing to show us and the vessel that he's chosen to deliver his

thoughts and observations and story within. You mentioned the left. We were joking about the leftovers at the top of the show and how as as Damon Lindelof says it. He said it to us. The change between season one, which has its fans, shout out Mina Kimes, like people love season one. But Damon says that the difference to him between season one and season two is that he remembered that people sometimes laugh at funerals. Sure.

And that there is a different way to react to even extreme situations that can be both surprising but also ring emotionally true in our human experience. And so much of the more expensive television of the last few years and decades has been about. well, what would be the most human way to react when your family is burned alive by a dragon or whatever the case may be? And it's generally because of the necessities of plot or the limits of some creative imaginations. I'm not trying to do a drive-by. I just mean, it's hard to make this shit. It's often the most expected reactions, often done exquisitely. What I love about this scenario is what you were saying, it keeps surprising us. like what if they're the people who are the wrong people to be the heroes of a story?

What if this is a story that doesn't require heroes? What if, and I'm thinking back to Jeff Hiller, Emmy Award winner, Jeff Hiller's cameo a couple weeks, two weeks ago, when he's saying what Helen thought about her books, or he's saying what he thinks, what they think about all books or all art, or is Carol as good a writer as Shakespeare? And I'm like, yeah, this is the Internet. Yeah. The Internet is hateful and mean. and etc.

But it is also responsible for this, I think, pretty toxic flattening of criticism and understanding and appreciation of art. And we're saying this during like RAPT week when everybody's being told like, good job, you listen to the same thing as everybody else. It's like that's also part of our culture. And it's easy to pillory something

for all the more obvious negative characteristics of it. But I love that the show is also willing to look the potentially positive things and look at them a little bit sideways and to continue to be like maybe as you said a moment ago like maybe the end of the world isn't the worst thing for some people. Okay, then what?

What do we do then? I thought that the Diabode scenes were excellent uses, excellent executions of what in a sloppier set of hands might be exposition dumps. He's privy to information that she's not. It's obvious that he's getting this

information because he's simply more adept at talking to the others or the them, the they. And so it didn't feel like somehow he was like a scientist all of a sudden. He was just like, yeah, I just asked. You know, they're not happy about this information, but it is the case. Carol's relief that she would retain bodily autonomy was interesting to me. There's an element of physicality, those performance. I'm very curious about, I mean, I'm watching this show.

so delighted. I'm not getting ahead of myself to try and figure out where it's going or what it's doing. It feels very organic. It does feel like we're obviously on the path to these two characters meeting at some point,

these two people who are the only two who are against what's happening in the world. But I like how moral and philosophical it is and the idea that we can't do anything unless you give us their permission. You give us your permission. I really like how. how anti-reddit it is. Now, I personally am not anti-reddit. Like, I'm learning a lot about

London food and also trains when I log on these days. So, you know, that's great for me. Oh, you mean like anti-fan theory? Yes. What I mean is the questions here are very simple. And the answers are also so far relatively simple. Not saying that a joint, a great joining of human consciousness is not complicated. What I mean is, oh my God, they're eating people. Well, yes, here's why. What else could they do? And then we move on from there. We're eating people because we can't harm anything. Yes, and try and find fault with that. And I just think that it is such a rare, let's talk about this more in your end. And if you believe this already about us, you're right, that like sometimes we are rooting for and getting maybe overly excited about things that speak to a

larger trend or anti-trend in an industry that we care about and that we cover. But this show feels organically built from questions about character, about emotion, and about humanity, and about our moment. And I am going to do a drive by now. It is not a fair one. And I don't, Kai, don't clip this the wrong way. But like, compare the elegance of this show so far to Severance, which is another Apple show that has its partisans, that is complicated that is asking big questions that is beautifully shot. Is using an element of science fiction as metaphor for contemporary dislocation and, yeah. And all I mean is just think about the development process and what it's become.

I'm not even going to argue you, the collective use feelings about Plyrobis season one versus Severance, season two, because they have their merits. And I'm not even interested in a one-to-one AB comparison here. What I mean is severance was a brilliant spec script. that was retrofitted into a three, four, five season spanning odyssey driven by an aesthetic madman in Ben Stiller. And there's a lot of labor. And we've talked about in episodes that we've liked and didn't like

about the actual storytelling labor to get to a place where Mark and Helly running mean something, both in terms of the season and in terms of the series going forward. And look, no one can walk into the streamers and be like, I want to do this and get a greenlit like Vince Gilligan can at this point. But I got to respect how elegant it is because of how he did this. He's had a long-term partner with Sony, right? He has decades of experience across multiple eras of television at this point.

He tells stories and now is partially, I think, if not fully responsible for the visual as well as the, you know, the written side of what we're seeing on screen. And, like, I think has the right instincts in that he bet big on Ray Seahorn that she could be what Bob Odenkirk was in the early seasons of Better Call Saul. And Bob Odenkirk has talked about it. He's like, I had no days off. I shot every day. I was in every scene of Better Recall Saul except for the episode I directed. You know, and Ray Sehorn is a.

potentially doing that here. She is, she is creating like a probably pretty indelible television character right in front of our eyes. And it's, it's really cool. It's really cool that, um, I think that you can go through a year of television and we've, you know, we'll talk about this, but like you can have things that are good for what they are or nice executions of previously experienced material and, oh, they did a nice little twist on that. Or I didn't, this was way better than it had any business being. This is, this is different. This is, this makes me feel like there's still a lot we can do with this medium. I think you said it brilliantly. That said, Landman 203. We can circle back next week. I actually did have...

I just wanted, did you like Andy Garcia's finally getting to... Yeah. Also, I really, you know what I really respected? They made him Cuban. They let him be Cuban, which is true to Andy Garcia's life. And I think that was nice in heritage. I have, I do have a nice thing to say that, maybe is a segue to what you were saying, which is that when the show does things that are maybe to a, you know, 4D chess player like Taylor shared and kind of obvious and basic, like have many of your cast members share a scene together and I'm on the same time?

Yeah, for sure. I'm like, there's a reason why TV shows do that. It works. It's charming. It's interesting. It's moving things forward. But second,

the other thing that I have to say, and I mean this with no snark, when the show commits, itself to showing us the process and peril of work in a field that I have absolutely no knowledge of. Chemical spill is gripping. It was the pit-esque. This show is not as good as the pit, but in the sense of here are people who are trained to do something, reacting to something that hope to God I never, ever, ever encounter. I found that incredibly compelling and gripping. And you can't have a chemical spill every week, although I can't ever tell him what to do.

it did remind me that there's still just like there's stuff here that is of interest you just have to wade through so much shit to get to it half the time I agree with you that there is a procedural show about just Tommy fixing stuff every week that I would still watch

and it doesn't even need all of the family soap operatics Cooper inheriting things whatever trip the Michelle Randolph character is on I would just be there for the like Tommy fixes a well this week somehow. Great. With boss.

The extra stuff is the extra stuff. And sometimes it hits and sometimes it misses. You famously are much more liquid than I am. So maybe you can answer this better than I can. But like if you are over leveraged like like Monty was, yeah. Like Monty was. Yes. On a scale of like one to 10 in terms of just like fiduciary savvy,

how smart is it to walk into a public place, break a beer, bottle over the head of your financial advisor and say, where's my money? It's all gone. Well, Tom, it's not Tommy's money. It's Cammy's money. You know, like, he's like, I know, but that's just how they shouldn't be spreading that around. Like, that's how they solve problems. I hope. For me, if I'm Monty, I just start to lose track of the shell corpse, you know. Do you think that's what David Ellison is doing in Riyadh right now? Is he in Riyadh? The Cattlemen's Club? I just, he's shaking down Saudi wealth. I don't know. Where's my money? It was great to see you.

I gotta find out what happens in season two of the chair company. I'll let you go, let you dry off. Thanks to Kai for recording us today. We'll put this up on Friday, and then we'll be back on Monday to discuss, I'm sure, more landman, whatever Thames boat shows. Yeah, Thames Talk. Thanks to everybody for listening.

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