The Watch - Podcasts As IP, the Low Stakes of ‘Loki’, and This Week’s ‘Top Chef’

Episode Date: June 18, 2021

Chris and Andy talk about the trailer for the Apple+ series ‘The Shrink Next Door’ and how more TV shows are coming from podcasts (11:53). Then, they talk about the latest episode of ‘Loki’ (14:37) and this week’s episode of ‘Top Chef’ (33:28). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

From reviews to rankings, the big picture is all things movies. From in-depth analysis of the latest flick to sit-down interviews with some of the biggest movie stars and filmmakers on the planet, Sean Fennacy and Amanda Dobbins have got you covered. Check out The Big Picture on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to.

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Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about trim fire. Tap this ad to learn more about trimfaya, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line.

Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at The Ringer.com.

And joining me on the other line with a steaming plate of seabass and cheddar. It's Andy Greenwald. You put it that way. Oh, Thursday evening. in the United States of America. We live in a world where the Sixers just can't win a playoff game. Andy and I are delighted to be with you today.

We're here to talk about Loki, the second episode of that Marvel television show on the Disney Plus channel. And we're also going to talk about an exciting episode of Top Chef. Andy, how are you? I'm mixed. You know, you alluded to it.

I don't know. So we're recording this on Thursday morning the day after the Sixers had a relatively historic collapse in the face of Illinois. share with the people. I mean, we're open books. They always love it, man.

They love a little behind the scene stuff. Chris and I were together last evening, not watching the Sixers because thankfully the game was well in hand. We thought other Philadelphia institutions needed our support. Yes. So we went to the Los Angeles Dodgers baseball stadium to watch a match with our baseball team. A match. Sports match.

Is that correct? And there's really nothing like. being, you know, in the wonderful, warm jacuzzi of what I believe to be the greatest stadium in Major League Baseball with your best friend and then have your best friend turn Ashen and elbow you early. Right after we've scored off Clayton Kershaw, you know, arguably one of the best pictures of his generation. And your Ashen-faced friend says the Hawks are up too. And you're a CASA, Casabalder over what was supposed to be a triumphant return to, you know, normalcy. Although I guess the Philadelphia losing horrifically does feel normal. It does feel like life is back.

You know what I mean? It really is just like the blonde chick and the Matrix when she gets stuck got and she's just like not like this. No. Unplug me any other way. Not really something that I met you at your home and we walked over to Dodger Stadium. And when I met you, we were up 24, 22 points. And I'd ever really occurred to me until my phone started buzzing and people were saying, Jesus, Jesus fucking Christ, Jesus Christ, oh my God.

And I was just like, what could possibly be happening? Was this your church group chat? Did Italy leave the Belt and Road initiative? Like, what is going on? Yeah, I think the thing is, and I probably have shared this in various forums before, but like when I say that I'm a terrible sports fan, I mean it legitimately, like, in that it is terrible for me the way that I'm a sports fan, because Chris, listeners know this. I hope they don't, you know, this is not just beak behind the curtain,

This is the other side of the ball, so to speak. Like, you know, Chris has a fantastic other career as a sports podcaster and commentator and you're excellent at it. And part of doing that is being a fan of the big picture, being a fan of the great game. John's podcast? Of the big picture podcast. No, but like you will watch like a Utah Clippers game and be like, interesting, ball don't lie or whatever. Like, you'll have a point of view. Yeah.

I only care about Philadelphia sports teams, and yet I have almost no time to watch them. Still, as I said to you last night, nothing makes me more upset than like what happened last night. Like in my, not just my bones, like deep in the soft tissue. Like the same, you know when the dude got swallowed by a whale last week in New England, and then he survived, and he was like, no broken bones. Do we determine whether that was fake tissue damage? Like there's a lot of debate about whether that guy's lying, right? Well, I just appreciated the specificity of his post-game,

complaint where he was just like, nothing broken, just soft tissue damage. And I was like, what a rich phrase. And that's how I felt. Couldn't sleep last night because any time I was, and like even winning the game didn't help, the baseball game. And perhaps the worst part was when I was walking back home from the game. And there was a really brave soul wearing a Bryce Harper jersey, just kind of lording over our two nil. I'm just going to keep saying the sports things wrong to piss people off victory. And some guys behind us, behind me and my new best friend in the Bryce Harper jersey, just said, go hawks.

Nice. And I, and I, and it hurt. I deserved it. By the way, one thing that you didn't know that, like, people should know, like, Chris, you know, had some traffic concerns. He left a little earlier. So I was walking home alone. And as I, classic Los Angeles fan.

Reach my, reach my neighborhood. I was a guy opening a bottle of beer on like a. a department of water some switching station, just like cracking it. But I was like, this is fine, you know,

we're back. Los Angeles is open. Cases are down. And the guy was wearing a John Cruck jersey. Really? Which, you know, people probably hopefully know,

is a legendary Philadelphia, quote unquote, athlete and an enormous fellow who was a member of our World Series team. And I was like, I respected that. He was opening a beer. And as I passed him,

I just heard this voice, like, you go to the Dodgers game and like with hostility. And I remembered, as you know, I had lost my hat. I did feel that my burgundy t-shirt was a real tell, but apparently not. And I was like, I turned around and he had menace in his voice.

And I was like, yeah, good win. And he went, yeah, for us. I was like, my brother, for us, for us, I am of you. We are of the same tribe, I too. No, John Kruck. And it could have gone either way. Like, that was a real Jets and Shark situation, but with beer bottles, right? Did I handle that correctly?

would you have done something differently. Really, really eventful trip home. All I did was get into an Uber where I was listening to the rights to Ricky Sanchez podcast about the collapse of the Sixers. But my Uber driver was listening to Rogan

and I had my headphones in. I was like, yeah, what's up, man? And then I put my headphones in. It's like, I do like 30 seconds of chit-chat when I get in the car and then I usually like listen to something. And I was starting to listen to Ricky. And then he was listening to Rogan

and I would be like, can I go and turn the car. the podcast up a little bit since he's got Rogan. And he seemed to sense that and just kept turning Rogan up. And we were having like Pod Wars in the Uber. Whoa. So it was just, did anyone ever comment on this escalation? Or did you get out before you got red-pilled?

No, it didn't take that long to get home. I, I get red-filled. You're like, listen. That's what did it. It's just that last ride. Do you think that I made the mistake of talking too much? Because when the guy was like, go hawks, I like, I said something to that guy too. And then he became my best.

I was like, I said that too soon, man. Like, and he was like, oh, bro, bro, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, bro. I'm like, no, no, I'm just a fan that it hurts. Then he came over to me and just started telling me that he worked at the Staples center and Doc Rivers is the nicest guy he's ever met, but he just doesn't have it and he's going to collapse and he's going to, you know, he can't win the big game and blah, blah, blah. Are you being serious?

Yeah, that's what this guy said to me. You really just like people love talking to you, man. I think that I've made a mistake. Too late. Too late. That's, but the, I think, I was going to ask you. Am I talking to people too much? Because when I moved to L.A., I lost instantly.

Like, whatever. I am not generally a thick-skinned human being. That's evident. But, like, I did, I was a New Yorker for 17 years. So I knew not to make small talk. And I just keep my head down. You walk really fast. And then you spend three months here where everyone's just super nice.

And then I would go back to New York. And the bodega guy would just, I like, buy a, you know, vitamin water. And the guy would just hold up, like, gesture that costs $2. And I'd be like, $2, my, sir, has the price increased due to inflation? Or perhaps you recommend a Nantucket nectar in its place? And the guy's just like, what are you doing? So I wonder if I've just become too chatty. I know it's good for podcasting.

You know, I had a really, like, formative experience in this regard. Because when I went to Ireland for study abroad, when I was in like, so I was like, classic trip for young CR. Junior year of college, I went there. And then, you know, like, all you ever hear is about how, like, delightful and hospitable the Irish are. And I just think that like nine out of ten of them were like, the fuck do you want? Like, just, and I like to think of myself as somebody with a pretty sunny disposition who just is happy to chat with people. So like, I just always assume that most people would rather not talk.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Whether they're wearing a John Cruck jersey and digging for oil in Echo Park or whether they like are, you know. That guy had his own supply of oil. He was well, well lubricated. Last thing, I think we should tell people. because this is a pop culture podcast. I think that of all the things that have happened during this last tumultuous and tragic year, one of the things that surprised me most and I think it's most relevant to this podcast

is there's been some great TV, there's been some great entertainment across the board, and we've talked about it. Not a single thing has been as entertaining or as joyful as the kiss cam at Dodger Stadium last night. Yeah, it's still great. It's so great to get it back. Always the best entertainment,

but there was something about seeing it, it was transcendental. It was so good. The quality of it was so good. It had its own little like A plots and B plots, you know? We had a brother-sister twist where the sister was like, I can't do it. They cut to these two people and they immediately just dead-faced the camera and like, you know, did the cutting throat gesture like, nah, nah, this isn't it, which I didn't know what people do, but that's cool.

And then they went back to them. The director, I mean, can you picture, you know when they show, like the guy who directs the Oscars, directing the Oscars, and it's always a dude who looks like Trump's physician, and he's just like, go 24, go 23, go.

Like, this guy is working at Dodger Stadium in the off season. Give me, Jackman. And he went back to them, and the woman lowered her mask and just clearly mouthed. Like if she had been preparing for this moment her whole life, brother and sister,

we're brother and sister. And the place erupted. Great entertainment. As good as it gets. Big celebrity night there in Dodger Stadium. John Mullaney was there. Yeah, shouts to former guest of the Andy Greenwald podcast show, Simon Rich. Also in attendance.

With John Mullaney, didn't get a Chiron. They get flashed on the scoreboard. Andy and I did not. But I will say, you know, you're talking about pop culture, Andy. And it's like, we've been in a little bit of a bubble, obviously, like figuratively and literally for quite a while. We're not literally anymore after last night. And after last night, I am one with my fellow man. But it was just crazy.

Like our section above first base at the top of Dodge. Stadium, just a buzz with the Amazon MGM merger. Right? That's what everybody was talking about. I know. Oh, my God. No, it was wild. You want to talk about Loki?

Twitter is real life, Chris. I don't know if you've heard otherwise. Yeah. Oh, wait, two things. Before we do, I did want to mention, it wasn't under the rubric of the Andy Greenwald podcast, which had a great theme song, by the way. But it was a special episode of the Watch this week.

Wednesday, we dropped it in case you missed it. It should be in your feed. I had a chance to have a conversation with the creators of one of our favorite shows of the year, Hacks. That was a nice bookend to the talk that you and I had on Monday with Jen Statsky, Lucia, and Yellow, and Paul W. Downs. So that's cool. Check it out. Listen to that.

And then did you want to talk about this Apple trailer that just dropped, the shrink next door? Sure. Yeah. I think my comment to you was it turned, I guess these great guys really like the cable guy. just because my initial sort of thought when you see Paul Rudd, Catherine Hahn, and Will Ferrell in a show is,

damn, this is going to be funny. And it seems to be set in like, is it, so it's based on a true story? Is it set in the 80s? Yeah, it's set in the past, and it is a true story. And I don't know if you have this experience, but, or Kyah earmuffs,

I don't really listen to podcasts very often. So it's an interesting. I only listen to Rogan in other guys' cars. It interesting. That was a really weird pandemic strategy by you. It's an interesting cultural moment because we're about to have all these scripted versions of very popular podcasts that may have actually been based on articles or things prior to that. I'm completely ignorant of all of them. I don't know the street next door.

I don't know Dr. Death. I don't know. I didn't watch Tiger King in any form. Was that a podcast? Was it just the documentary? Not a podcast. It was a Netflix show. No, I think it was because I think the upcoming Peacock show was based on the podcast.

I didn't know that, yeah. I got all my Tiger King. I'm all good for the rest of my life. Yeah, Joe Exotic was the name of the podcast. Anyway, the point is, I don't know anything about it, but it does seem to be a sort of bizarre story, but not necessarily a hard comedic one. And, you know, trailers are trailers, but I thought it was a great one. Honestly, I thought it really.

sold a vibe and a mood and a compelling story and also captured, I think, the tone of what these guys are going for. Rudd seems to be on one, which is cool. And the vibe- that-ud comes from like a pretty dramatic background. And like for like most of the beginning of his crew is like, this is just the dude who's in Neal-a-Bute plays, right? This is the most me thing ever. But I saw Paul Rudd in like, I think it was 12th night or some other like Shakespeare and comedy at Lincoln Center where he just wore a loincloth and lounged on the stage. I think my wife liked it more than I did, but, but that's that dude. But yeah, he's, he's a great actor.

And I think anyway, the only thing I know about this is just in terms of like buzz is that they are going for it. They're going, they're doing something different. This is not like their. Who directed it? Showalter, Michael Showalter. Oh, okay. Late of the state, who also directed the eyes of Tammy Fay movie that had a good trailer last

week. Oh, wow. Yeah. Wow, what a year for him. All right. Let's do Loki. Second episode, I have, this is my, my big note. Okay.

that I took down. Thank you for taking down a note. I mean, already. What a bunch of chatty Kathy's. Uh-huh. That's it. That's my note. Yeah, I was just, I think the show is, is, remains great.

Like, I, I still am right enough the fumes from last week. I think taken together, these are two really good set up episodes. I do not really understand what's happening. I mean, I enjoy the time branch stuff. I really, like, I find all of it very charming. But it is essentially like my cafeteria lunch with Andre, with these two guys sitting together and just sort of bantering back and forth. I've always sort of been wary of timeline, multiverse stuff,

because I just think it's an easy out to not have consequences to what happens in movies or shows. And, you know, I think if you're going to go the distance of spending 10, 15 years building towards something. Like, don't also have a get-out-of-jail-free card where you can just be like, that person didn't really die in the snap, you know, or that Thanos didn't really kill this person. So I have a little trepidation about some of the mechanics. Wait a little you hear about comic books because you're going to struggle.

I know. But despite my trepidation about that, I do think it provides an interesting platform from which to discuss the meta-quality of these stories of like why. Does anyone do anything? And what's the point? Yeah, I first off, I'm with you. I really enjoyed the episode and actually enjoyed it in a way that surprised me because when it began, I had my little Loki dagger sharpened being like, here we go.

Second episodeitis. Because as it started, I was like, okay, so we're going to kind of redo the first episode again. And we're going to talk about talking about stuff instead of doing stuff. And we're going to settle in to a longer story as opposed to. you know, something that's going to have like the sort of the pace and energy of a movie. And I was going to say, I was going to begin to wonder if this is the struggle of this phase one of Marvel on TV where they want to capture that lightning in a bottle or lightning in two hours flat that are the movies, but they're not entirely sure how to portion it out.

And then the second half of the episode went and it totally washed away those concerns because it had its own momentum, its own sense of place and fun and stakes, and it did stuff, you know, and I appreciated that very much. And I continue to feel, this could always bite me, but I continue to feel that through two episodes, this is easily the most successful MCU show to date for two reasons. One is that it is absolutely, maybe this is actually just the same reason. it's just kind of about itself. It's about its own charm and style and wit and playfulness. And that included in that is the charisma of its two stars. And frankly, that's enough for me.

It feels containable. Now, when I say containable, it sounds like I'm trying to, you know, do it, damn it with faint praise. I think actually the construction of the episode that Michael Waldron and whatever other writers worked on the show managed, I think it's really a moment. It's really well done. Yeah. You can, when you see the seams of now we have to explain this again or whatever, it's very artfully done and I don't mind it at all.

You know, it's like the time when, remember when Delta started having fun with it's like put on your seatbelt videos? Yeah. And you're like, oh, you could do that. Like you want to watch this? Like they're doing like music videos. Yeah, I'm like, oh, okay. Put your head between your knees because we're crossing into the ocean.

It's not just a thick neck dude named Ed being like, welcome aboard. Like, so anyway. Wait, what airline did you find? fly. It was the one that the one that can't go to Belarus anymore. Was that a teamsters thing? Yeah. It was a whole thing.

I'm flying here. In Minsk. So I think that's really impressively done. But, you know, I think that people's mileage may vary. And it also potentially could limit the project. Because we said this last week, and I'm still struggling with how to kind of understand it. I think that Wanda Vision and Falcon and Winter Soldier, at their best, should be commended and

celebrated for taking pretty wild swings, whether it was in terms of formal storytelling, emotion, or social awareness, or, you know, kind of doing the better version of the Law and Order ripped from the headlines. Yeah. That's awesome. And it's important for the brand to be pushed and pulled in those directions. That said, this just feels like in the pocket in a way that I can really enjoy because ultimately, do I feel like this show has something to say about the nature of free will and time?

I don't care. It has something to say about the charm and mischievousness of its main character, which is more than enough for decades of entertainment. I mean, you know, people have tipped Tom Hiddleston for Bond in the past, but really what I feel like he's doing here is showing us his Doctor Who, which is already one of the best of all time, even though it's a different show. So this episode actually reminded me of Aaron Sorkin's TV stuff,

but not in the way that I think, most people would think. Like, you know, Aaron Zorkin is known for these very, um, immaculately sort of worded and paced and performed dense pieces of chunks of dialogue competing with one another. And then this,

these ratatat kind of ping pong matches between actors. And I thought there was a lot of that obviously going on in this episode, especially the scene where Tom Hiddleston is showing Owen Wilson what Apocalypse and time travel look like. like in regards to his salad with salt and pepper. Did you feel triggered by that as a salad guy for lunch? I don't like anybody touching my salad after I bring it in. But I thought that that was a really good example of a ton of verbiage hitting you very

fast delivered by a dazzlingly charismatic performer that is difficult to follow, but you ultimately get the idea. So it's like the same thing on the West Wing when like Sam Seaborne would do, here's what this bill is. and here's how we have to get it past, but all of it with the vocabulary of in-depth policymaking, like they're talking about it. They're not really slowing down to explain things much.

Like every once in a while, Owen Wilson would be like, what are you talking about? And then he'll have to do it again. But it's essentially just like you're supposed to come out of it with a feel for what he means, even if you don't understand it. And because those two are those two, you're just like, run it back. Do that scene again. I'll watch you guys do this scene five times.

I think that you're right. It doesn't really right now have for the first time out of these Marvel shows and it's only the third time up. But I know that there will be questions to answer about who are the timekeepers. Who is like, you know, what is how does this connect to this? Or what is this big question that Loki has to answer at some point?

But I actually have been pretty relieved by how few of things there were like that so far. You know, like with Falcon and Winter Soldier and with Wanda, wanted it probably more because it went first and because it was quote unquote so weird that people were like, well, what's this mean? What's this mean? Who's controlling her or whatever?

And Falcon, because I think especially once it was like, who's the power broker? I think there was like a lot of like, what is the thing that is going to happen? Like, what are we waiting for? Loki doesn't feel like that yet. Even if it is like, I don't know, it's not Christian Bale, but whoever it is that

is like the timekeeper, I know, I find it pretty fascinating to watch them kind of like, just be like, this is like a third way of doing a show. This is the way where it's like, we don't owe anything to the larger mythology. We have this really, really awesome character who people already have completely invested in. And I just, I think they're doing an excellent job with it. I agree. Two points.

I think there's a bit of showing off here. And that's okay. Especially in like the design and like the, I love the design. Yeah, the set decoration. It's beautiful. Take the chance. Take the opportunity. Show us something. Have a point of view. Have an opinion. Take us somewhere. But also, to use an

analogy from the sporting event that we watched last night, like, bat flips after home runs are cool. Like, I'm sorry, purists, like, you want to play the right way and, like, you just hit the ball and keep your head down and chug through the bases. But no, sometimes you want to see great players show personality and flip their bats and whatever. And I think it's important to note that, especially in TV, where so much of the current way that we understand shows like this is, oh, well, what does that mean? What's that reveal? What's going to happen next? What does it mean for a movie that's not coming out for three years? No, let's look at great actors flipping their bats. Let's look at Michael Waldron having a hell of a good time and coming up with this idea that the Owen Wilson

character loves jet skis. It's great. It's a great detail. It's a great character beat. It's wonderfully delivered and a really nice human moment. And those are the things that will make the show memorable, not just useful. And to your other point about what are we waiting for, that's such a good, that's such a really, I think, smart capture of what essentially was the problem with Falcon and Winter Soldier,

not as a project, not as a collection of individual scenes or character work or ideas. Not even as like an experience, but just like, I think it had more to do with the discourse than it did with the experience of the shows. Possibly, but also we did,

there wasn't enough jet, there weren't enough jet skis. in that show to draw attention away from the fact that who is the power broker is a question that doesn't matter to anyone. We don't, you introduced it as a mystery and then made us and then acted like we would care about the mystery. And of course, like when you, you know, dig a hole in the sand in the beach and the ocean comes rushing into fill it, like that's what the internet will do for a question in a highly rated television show. And I don't fault anyone, including ourselves, for doing that. But that wasn't a question we were necessarily.

invested in. And I think the beauty of the Loki construction is going off of the second episode, this whole thing is probably bullshit, right? These timekeeper lizards, like this is all set up to be revealed as, you know, and Mobius will be on Loki's team and they'll tear down the structure to save it. And there is no one timeline, which will lead to possibly multiverses and Miles Morales, Spider-Man, and who cares? Have fun with that, right? But the point being, the show is constructed not to make us overly care about that question yet. It's making us care of that question yet. It's making us care about these two people putting too much salt and Boku apple juice on top of a salad. And that is the right framing for a show that is as fun, frankly, as this one is, and the level

of stakes with which it is operating. You know, Hiddleston and this character have been the kind of the Vinnie Johnson off the bench for the MCU in general. Like, it's like, get him in there and he's going to change the temperature of the room in a really efficient, fun way. And it's interesting, it's been fun to watch him do that while being in almost every scene.

Although, you know, Wilson so far is like, is kind of the co-lead of this show. Yeah. You know, they're doing probably more, as many scenes with Wilson without Hiddleston as Hiddleston as Hiddleston gets without Wilson. I do find it fun to watch even a walk-and-talk that's supposed to be, hey,

they're like, what did you hear in this, room and what are we going to do in the next room. Hidleston is like feeling the frame out. Like he's just popping his collar and doing this and shoulder moves and like everything has flare. And it is, I can see why that would be exhausting in the same way that I think maybe his character is the kind of person that must be difficult to ultimately write for because what is ever

real. You know what I mean? Like what is ever like the actual quote unquote motivation for someone who is just one of many gods of mischief carousing around multiple timelines doing multiple good slash bad things at any given moment. But it's been kind of neat

to see the first three Marvel shows have all been about somewhat, I don't mean this in a pejorative way about anybody who's like, Vision taught me it was okay to be weird. I just mean like, those were like relatively tertiary characters

compared to Iron Man and Captain America and Hulk or whatever and see like, the different ways you can approach these side characters, whether or not you need them to be entirely how they relate to the absence of a main character, like Falcon and your soldier, or whether or not it's filling in relatively inert characters

like Wanda and Vision with like a different emotional depth. In the case of Loki, you're just like, we have this very, very powerful thing. Let's just like let it go and see how much we can light it up. But also it is a question of recipe balance and chemistry, right? Because it's a, Hittleston is a very strong ingredient, you know?

The citric acid of this of this entire. Well, let's not tip our top chef convote. But, you know, he is, as many classically trained British actors are very comfortable switching from comedy to drama to tragedy. And he can even sell a bit of total nonsense like the Asgardian legend of wolf ears and teeth or whatever. I'm like, sounds fascinating. Tell me more about this thing that you cooked up in the writer's room at 2 a.m. because you had to fill a hole. Great. He's also, and I say this with respect and love, like a bit camp. And there's things that I recognize from when I was making

Briar Patch, like working with Alan Cumming, who is in some ways a similar actor. And you say to Alan, like, okay, Alan, we need to do a pickup of you receiving a document and you look at the pages. And it's worrying to you. And he's just like, great. Eyebrow acting. Got it. Yeah. And he's joking a little bit, but he can just do it. And there's a lot of that here where the scene where he's like in the library going through documents. And I watched, I actually rewound and watch one of those scenes because you can tell a certain type of actor who's like, I love this.

Here's the six documents you've handed me. I'm going to lift up this one first. I'm going to lay it flat. I'm going to collate them. And then I will toss my hair and leave, you know. And that was probably a pickup at the end of the day, you know, but he's doing it. But all this is to say, you can play with that and you can turn it up to 11 and you're never going to be disappointed. But unless you also have some, you're not wrong, citric acid or just whatever Owen Wilson brings, they're playing with two highly combustible liquids and somehow are balancing them very well in creating a very successful dish.

What's up with Lady Loki? What should I know? Anything? Well, so that's the other thing. It's just a sign to me that the show is successful that even when I do, I did like a quick Google just to see what the webs were talking about. And of course, the headlines are like, Loki Episode 2, shocker, who is mysterious villain and why? And it's just like, look, guys, even super fans or Super Marvel fans listening to our podcast, I hope would agree with me, which is it's a sign of a successful show that you don't need to care. The show has done a very good job. of explaining to us that there are variants who might be quite variable and quite different. So, yeah, is it just a Loki from a timeline where Loki was a woman? Okay. Is it further proof that Loki as written in the Marvel Universe and in comics and beyond is gender fluid? And that's an important milestone.

Okay. Yes, that too. Is it the backdoor opening to reveal in the next episode that it's not Loki at all? but a popular Thor villain called The Enchantress, and now she's going to be in the Marvel universe? Neat. Sure. Do all those things. Did you know that or did you have to go read about it? I'm just curious whether or not they're playing off of comic stuff that you would know.

Recently in the comics, Loki has been fluid in a lot of ways. There was a storyline 10 years ago where all of Asgard was reborn, and I think like Loki stole SIF. SIF is a character from the movies played by Jamie Alexander, I think. stole Siff's new body and became that body became Loki. So Loki was a dark-haired woman. There was a whole solo series Loki had where he was young Loki and a kid. So that's a thing.

And fitting with the idea of like a trickster god of mischief who can change appearance and shape. Sure. Also, have I heard of Enchantress and read comic books with her in it? Yes. But I don't know. Maybe I'm just either I'm chill about this or nothing means anything anymore. The Sixers collapse. That's why I was asking is because.

I think that I still remember though like who's Monica going to go meet who's her engineer friend and Risbee Reed Richards

and I think ever since then I've just been kind of like am I supposed to know this you know is this something that I'm supposed to be like understand like what's at stake here?

I'm super into it we'll keep talking about it I also think just one last thing I really liked the fact that the actress who shows up at the end as the variant

Sophia Di Martino I don't know her she seems like a hotly tipped British actress. I've been on TV shows that I haven't seen, but kind of into them making a star potentially, then importing one for this particular role, because obviously it's a variant,

so they could change their mind and go in any direction. Also, one other fun thing for comics fans was that these future, like Walmart store, was another piece of evidence that this corporation called Roxon is going to play a role in the Marvel universe going forward, kind of basically like a multinational petroleum conglomerate created in the 70s that's caused trouble.

I think it was originally in a Captain America comic, but has often shown up in Hulk and Thor comics, and it's kind of a catch-all for bad behavior or villainy. And as far as I know, weirdly, had only been in the MCU that wasn't officially MCU, had been on Agents of Shield and had been on the Netflix shows. And I'm so interested in, like, how Ike Perlmutter demanded the evil corporation in the breakup with Kevin Feigy.

But anyway, like, these are the real heroes of this show. Exactly. That's exactly where I was going with it. But anyway, now it's back, and particularly in Jason Aaron run on, Jason Aaron's run on Thor, which I recommend for people who are interested in that stuff on Marvel Unlimited with a great artist, Russell Daughterman. There's a lot of fun Roxanne stuff. And so...

What's the, did Roxon get included in the ProPublica report about people paying taxes? I didn't, you know, I only read headlines on Twitter, so you're going to have to tell me. Why don't we take a quick break and we'll come back. talk about Top Chef. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day,

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Andy. So we have ourselves four remaining chefs. We get down to the final three by the end of this episode, despite winning the Oregon Trail Quickfire. Jamie is the chef to go home. I will say, just regarding that Quickfire, I know that I just really have read way too much Larry McMurtry this year. because my idea of what they should do on the Oregon Trail was just to shoot a horse and eat it. Yeah, just eat with what brung you.

What do you know about citric acid? What do I know about it? Yeah. Like, you seem pretty shaken up by the idea of an acid that's an actual acid. Citric acid is the, it's what makes lemons lemony, and it's just dried out and reduced to a compound. But they were treating it like the nerve gas in the rock. Well, I think their main fear, as voiced by Dawn, was that it looks exactly like salt.

And if she had left it on her station, then she might have made a catastrophic error. Worse than leaving off of Gujarre. I don't have too many notes about the quickfire. I thought it was basically, it was interesting. I thought, you know, it was interesting to watch them try to. They obviously made very elegant dishes, even though I was kind of waiting for one of them to go rustic. I think Dawn probably did the most rustic. thing by doing like a sort of a porridge.

A porridge with blended herring in it? Yeah, what's up with that? Have you ever had a fish porridge? I imagine anybody working in Borgon might have, but like I wasn't sure if that was like a... Yeah, like an Asian juk. Because you love a you love a savory porridge. Yeah. Yeah, I've had some little, little dried fishies and

some rice porridge, yeah. But it's never been like you know, like fully blended in. So it's just mostly oily fish guts. I thought that Gables was rustic as well. I mean, it was Maria-sized portions. I thought that this was... He did the whole damn thing to the trout.

That's right. My guess is that this was in contention with the producers to be a whole challenge because it was a really cool one and a good opportunity. And it was, honestly, to my eyes, one of the most impressive things they've done in like 20 minutes.

You know, that was wild. Also, shout out Vitali Paley. I haven't been to Portland as much as you have, but his restaurant when I went 10 years ago, one of the best meals I can remember having. Oh, nice. So that was cool. Again, would love to know the dudes who show up for a 20-minute quickfire,

did he have to just piece out on his family for two weeks to quarantine? And was that a bad thing for him? I don't know. I feel like at the end of this season, I don't know whether or not, like, they've just sort of like come to some. There's more hugging going on at the end of the season I've noticed. For sure. But there was like, I realize now that there was like a friend of mine who, a friend of mine who's

an actor had to go do quarantine for a bunch of weeks in a hotel room before shooting a show in Canada. And I was like, oh, no, it's terrible. You'll be away from your family. What am I saying, you lucky motherfucker? You get to go sit in a hotel room. So I think there might have been a piece of that at play here. I know nothing about Vitaly's family.

I just mean for some of the people. Anyway, yeah, good quick fire. Yeah, I have a thing I want to sort of start at the end with the elimination challenge. You know who likes that best when we do that? Kai McMullen, who has not seen the episode yet. She loves when we just like rip the Band-Aid off. Well, I think, I mean, you don't even.

have to have seen this episode to know exactly what I'm talking about, but I've mentioned this before this season, and I wanted to ask you about this. What do you think of the volatility and variance of the judging this season? Because I thought we had a really interesting case study of this at the end, towards the end of the elimination meal service, where you get basically, like, Shoda and Gabe are obviously on just like another level with what they, do what this is a cheese challenge where you're supposed to do cheese five ways inspired by the Medina Parmesan

five ways dish and they go to the Tillamook factory and they tour all of like the sort of process that they go through and then they get to shop in the Tillamook store and pick all these different things and then they have to do cheese five ways with something and clearly

Gabe and Shoda Shoda's thing had a high degree of like if this goes wrong it's going to go really wrong but when he pulls it off it clearly like is just almost like a mushroom They can't even believe how... Shoda blacked out on this one. Yes, yeah.

And like... I cannot think of a thing less suited for Japanese cuisine than cheddar cheese. Right. And the entire table is just like, holy shit.

Gabe does very well. Like, I think the only thing was that like the pickled apple that he does almost blows out the... Well, it was also that I think the concern was he did those things.

He once again went back to fruit, which is really interesting and cool. And he did brilliant technique of this roasted apple almost got, not micro-gastronomy, but like he obviously was using his engineering background and like figuring out. So he Nxtamilized the apple. And Nxtimalization is the process that you used to make tortillas where you turn corn

into something more palatable. And he used it knowing that it would solidify the pectins and the fruit. So if you roasted it wouldn't collapse. Right. But it was an apple dish more than it was a cheese dish, was the complaint. Even though those two things obviously go together quite well. And then you get Jamie and Don. Dawn was trying to make just, I continue to love Dawn more than anything.

She was trying to make an elevated cheese steak, which was going to be with what was a short rib or ribai. What was she doing it with ribai? It was like a ribai. That she was doing suede and then she was going to have like a certain sauce, but also cheese oil, but also a crisp and all these things and a groucher. And she misses a plate. She misses a plate with her groucherres at the end.

Brooks, yeah. She also has Jamie helping her with her service. and there is like a mild implication that that sort of tripped Jamie up as she finished her meal, although I think Jamie's problems were in conception rather than execution. I agree. Because Jamie chose to do Seabas with various cheeses, and that is really a reach. So they get to the judges. It's a huge slowing table featuring a person from Tillamook and then Gail Tom and Padma and then,

what, like 10 all-star chefs. Well, now also, Nina Compton, who the most robbed contestant probably in Top Chef history Runner-Rub joins the panel. Yes. And I thought it was really fascinating because I know that there are often, they do service for dozens of people, or they'll have a table, and it'll be like some people might like something and some people might not. But I thought Ed and Dale's reactions to the dishes were incredibly telling about, like,

how wild, like, if you bring in more judges, you just are going to get a wider variety of opinions about these things. And it's not that I think we really just should have Tom and Pat Man Gale judging everything. But you essentially got like a completely different, two totally different viewpoints on food in that, where Ed was like, I love Don's food. I don't care if the sauce was grainy. I don't care if she missed Brooks plate. I just, it gives me a warm hug. even went on further to say that it was like superior to Gables who he finds too intellectual. Yeah. And then Dale was essentially like Don Chalooze.

Don Chalooz, she's missed a plate again. She's missed plates in consecutive elimination challenges. And like it's those little things that we should be punishing. If I think basically if this had been, if Jamie had done a better dish or if this had just been the three of them, Don would have gone home. But I was wondering what you thought of. this kind of like, almost like active sort of live judging that goes on when you have that many excellent chefs sitting there eating your food? Well, I think the show, the show is so good in so

many subtle ways. And the idea that people just might have subjective taste or different palettes is obviously implicit in the conception of the show. But I like to think that whoever is putting the show together in anticipation of that moment when Ed and Dale, for example, disagreed about something, made sure to include the moment when Shoda is asking people to taste his dish, and he gets two different reactions, whether it should be cheesier or not. I think that those moments were twinned, I think, intentionally to remind us how subjective this is. And I appreciated that.

I am increasingly not just a fan of the judging panel, but I really hope that it continues to some degree in future non-pandemic iterations of the show. because I think that the emergence of like chef testant partisans in the judging panel, you know, the way Ed and Kwame just are in the tank for Dawn, they love her. They love her food. They want to celebrate her food. And it speaks to them is fascinating. And they're, because it's not just like Nina who showed up and was like, this was great.

Yeah. They've been watching it and they're understanding it and they're having conversation. And for whatever reason, there have been moments when Gail or. Padma have said, you know, I just have always loved the way blank person cooks, maybe because they feel the need to present to be objective in a different way as the official faces and voices of the show in the judging panel. They never really get out in front of their skis that way, partly because I think the main thing about the show, one of the things that has defined it year to year and separated it, frankly, from other reality shows, is that you're being judged

on this plate. And, you know, there's no momentum. You know, we're not going to give you a pass because you were, Jamie won the Quickfire, for example, and that was eliminated. So it's an interesting counterpoint to that long-held truism of the show. I like the way that they're being judged, though, the way they're being judged collectively and personal opinions about food are emerging. All of that said, though, one of the things I felt this year more than others is it's just clear what's going to happen in a way that doesn't necessarily rob the show of drama, although some might feel that way.

it's what you said like Don's food people some people adored and loved um don missed one component for one person other people thought it was the best thing that they ate Jamie's dish fundamentally made no sense and that had to go for that reason and it was interesting it made no sense in a way that's not just I think she's aired in this way before too but it's a very top chef thing to do which it was over it was pan there was panic and it was overthought at the same time. And so, as Tom said, if this had just been a dish of spetzel with the components, it would have made sense as a cheese dish.

But because she did that sort of like, oh, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm going to throw a piece of fish on there. Yeah, right. It didn't make any sense. And I think that that was the right outcome. I also think that it does, it's consistent with the show's emerging viewpoint that what matters most is the whole picture, the whole story, the whole plate. Right.

not just an individual element or an error. Do you think that other chefs this year, though, have been judged on that, you fucked one dish up, you go home? Like, do you think that sent Sarah home? Well, no, I mean, I think in that case, Sarah was the most, was the weakest partner in the losing team. I think she got bit by a really bad circumstance of timing

of being on that team and being the worst on it, in the public facing moment. I still feel like, and I'm sure other people can list this, Maybe I'm two in the tank for Sarah. I think that the final three is the correct final three, judging by the body of work. Me too. But I'm trying to remember other people who have been like,

oh, they've got that extra gear. They're going to be in it to the end, just not being there. Like generally, generally, Top Chef does, it shakes out correctly. Right. Sometimes people go too early, but you're not,

those aren't the people who are going to go to the finals too early. You're like they might leave at restaurant wars and they're gone in week three or whatever. This has been like a really up and down season. I think that there have been moments where, like, I think in week five or six, I was like, man, I think Chris has a shot here. And then he just went and I think really bottomed out after that. Like he had like a couple of like a really hot streak. And maybe there are streaky chefs.

You know what I mean? And I think that maybe there are different circumstances like kind of this show, this season is is more of a contextual season. But ultimately, I think Shoda might have been able to win almost any season of Top Chef. without question. And honestly, the way Gabe is cooking, too, he's in that conversation. And Dawn is streaky, man. I mean, she's as good as they are, but is not on that same sort of almost relentless path of excellence that they are. And I'm very excited to see what she does. And I really am pulling for her. One comment about the show's kind of change and focus. This whole challenge was really interesting. So this is what I wanted to ask, because Tom does do that aside.

which they never do again smart producing. I thought it was like, you know, essentially like before you get mad at us, here's why we're doing this. Yes, and I thought how smart does this, how in tune with this show's viewers are the show's producers, that they knew that and they needed to explain that. So essentially, and people don't know what we're talking about. There's a moment where Tom is at the Toomou C factory and he says,

you know, some people might be wondering why we're having people do something as weird as cheese five ways this late in the competition. But the whole point of this show is to push you out of your comfort zone and to make you sort of imagine different ways to cook your food. And this is a really good way to do that. And essentially just like giving them another two hours to make three dishes that have to have like a cheese component would not be like a challenge. They would just do their dishes. Right. At a certain point, everyone is excellent.

And then you're just judging on subjective taste. Like, whose version of excellence do you like more? And that's what the finale usually is and probably should be. And it probably will be. I mean, next week probably will be that. I thought that I changed my mind about this because when they introduced it, I was like, this feels overly gimmicky, just overly hard. And, you know, I'm glad Tom explained it, but really just like the intention felt

like someone is in a bicycle race and this is jamming a stick in their spokes intentionally to like totally screw them up. But I think as it turns out, Tom and the producers were right to do it because the chefs that succeeded were able to pivot and elevate and be creative in a way that I think has always been, at least in the most high-minded vision of it, essential to what the show is. And the way that Jamie screwed up, which was not by technique, you know, they said her fish was perfect. But she screwed up from not having that, like, just that loose, uh, fluid mind that you need to excel in such a ridiculous, intentionally almost ridiculous challenge.

Um, that is the show, not just a specific challenge. So I was, I was against it and thought it was gimmicky. And then when I saw what showed it did, I was like, oh, this is, this was an opportunity, not a challenge. And it was cool. I personally would have loved to have seen. I, okay, I don't know. I don't know that I really want Top Chef to become like every other sport where we're all having arguments about VAR or instant replay or what's a catch or what's continuation. But I would be curious to see Dawn's mistake put up against a replacement level dish. You know what I mean? Because I think she won, she got through that time. I think the one that Maria went home on. She missed a plate, but her food was incredible. I can't remember they were outdoors. There was the tofu challenge where she actually was disqualified from the second round and had to fight in the third round. Because she was bleeding, right? No, yes, but she also botched. She missed stuff.

And so they said, sorry, you can't win this. Right. Maria will win this. And so now you and Byron have to compete in the third round. So to your point about, like, are people still even being judged on that, on, you know, whether they get it done or not? Yes, they are. Sure. So it becomes more a question about, like, so, you know, now in the NBA right now, there's this, like, mild debate about how long.

it takes Janus to shoot a free throw. So he'll go to the free throw. Technically, you're only supposed to take 10 seconds before you shoot a free throw. And he sometimes takes 13 or 14. Maybe Ben Simmons should take 13 or 14. But there is a, you know, on one hand, it's like very persnickety

and it doesn't make a difference really on how long the game is. On the other hand, it is a rule. Now, missing a play, it's not a rule. But it is brought up as something that can be damning. So I almost would, I would like to see that that debate actually happened in a crystal clear way where it's just like, Dawn's food's good, but she messed up her delivery. Jamie's food was not quite as good, but what had had perfect delivery. I would have been interesting to see that debate.

I think they keep it as a sliding scale. I mean, I think that if you took the gujarers off of all of Don's plates, it made sense as a dish. And Ed and whoever else would have loved it. Yeah. As much as they loved it, whereas Jamie's dish was still, you know, Cheetos. Tom was trolling at the end, though. He was like, it was great sea bass. I thought he was going to kind of get.

He was trying to push. Tom was trolling with the hat. I know they filmed this months ago. It was indoors. You know, come on. It was wild that he was still wearing a hat indoors. I mean, it's just a choice, you know. Anything else you want to hit on before we get out of here with Top Chef or otherwise?

No, I'm just really excited for what's to come. I mean, if you go, the odds makers, actually, I was joking, but they probably exist. would probably say that it's just we're clearly headed for a Shoda and Gabe finale. They tease a Gabe mistake in coming from next year. But I think that's why they did it. I hope we get surprised because I just, I'm rooting for Don. I love Dawn. I want her to excel and succeed.

But also, I just think that these three, I mean, if the show goes as it often has in the past, which is someone will be eliminated next week and then there's a finale the following week, is that right? Yeah. So almost definitely there will be two people cooking the finale. years they've done some trickery where no one's getting eliminated or someone comes back and then there's three people in the finale. I don't think they'll do that. So in some ways, much like the penultimate episodes of wire seasons or whatever, in many ways next week is my finale. Because I love

these three in their differing points of view and just their different temperaments on the, not just on the plate, but in the kitchen. Because as we keep saying, Ton could just win. Or she could leave off something and it's done. I actually have some confidence that that can happen. It's hard to knock Shota off his square, but I do think that if Don has gotten the jitters out with these last couple, where she's like, I got thrown off by this or I got pushed out of my comfort zone with that, she has the like, she has like a certain emotional quality to her food that I think that almost could like supersede like Shota's technical ability. I just feel like no one is, no one left in this competition or maybe in the competition

full stop since the beginning of the season is as good at anything as Shoda is at cooking his food. And the closer we get to a finale, he's cooking his food. So he's the clear favorite for a reason. Yeah. All right, man. Well, let's wrap it up there. No Andy on Monday, but we'll

I'll have a guest co-host and then we'll be back next Thursday to talk about Top Chef and Loki. Is your guest Lady Loki? Ooh, is it Lady Andy? Is it a variant? It's a variant Andy, yeah. Oh, I can't wait. I'll listen to that one. Have a great weekend, Brian.

Bye, buddy. We are produced as always by Kai Mekyll. Thanks for listening to The Watch.