The Watch - 'Presumed Innocent' Episodes 4-6 and ‘The Bear’ Bag

Episode Date: July 11, 2024

Chris and Andy discuss ‘Dune: Prophecy’ and ‘The Penguin’ being branded as HBO originals (2:44), then chat about the recently released trailer for Season 2 of ‘Severance’ (21:41). They then break down Episodes 4-6 of ‘Presumed Innocent’ and debate what’s working on the show vs. what isn’t (25:34). Finally, Chris and Andy dive into the listener-submitted Bearbag of questions about Season 3 of ‘The Bear’ (40:00). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Devon Baroldi Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Greetings, it's Mal. Call your banners because it's time to head back to Westrose for House of the Dragon, season two. The ringers Dragon riders will soar alongside you each week with a heron-hall-sized slate of conversations. The dragon has three heads, and on Sunday nights immediately after Hot D concludes, Chris Ryan, Joanna Robinson and I will be with you for Talk the Thrones. Then on Mondays, two more shows away. Dan Lath and Charles Holmes, Steve Allman, and Jomea Denneron, aka the Midnight Boys, Pugh!

Pee! We'll head to the tourney grounds to share their reactions. And of course, Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald will sip the Arbor's finest vintage on the watch. Then on Tuesdays, Joanna and I will head to the bowels of a pleasure den for our House of our deep dives. Then on Thursdays, Joe, Neil Miller, and Dave Gonzalez will gather the Ravens for trial by content. In this season, full episodes of Talk to Thrones, House of Ar, and the Midnight Boys will also be available on video on Spotify and the new Ringervverse YouTube channel. Podcast episodes available on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Did you know about one and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis,

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including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there.

Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio, the art installation consultant on presumed innocent. It's Andy Greenwald. They did talk to me about that. You know what else they asked me about? Hand creams. And different, the ways that they treat pain. Yeah.

Yeah. And like which ones are okay to put in your mouth after you apply. Great to see you today. It's Thursday. I'm feeling good about today. Devin's here to produce us. Kaya, somewhere hopefully not engaging in combat with a bear. You mean like wrestling with her feelings about the divisive season three? Or actually being confronted with a forest animal who wants her mescal. You never know. Greenwald today we are going to do a little bit of news at the top. We have a bear bag, a mailbag about the bear.

I asked for these questions from our Facebook group because it seems ridiculous to wait for a season of television to come on, get 10 episodes of it, talk about it on two episodes of the watch, and then just keep it. keep it moving. Yeah. You listening, John Landgraf? Ridiculous. Well, I mean,

there's a lot of questions about how the season was delivered to us. So thank you to everybody who wrote in and sent in bear mailbag questions. This also won't be the end of our bear talk. I think that we have a big bear

coming at some point to talk about what he did this season. Is that Maddie Matheson? I wish. I'd love to talk to Maddie Matheson. No. We'll also, we'll talk about presumedness

and up through episode six. Yeah. Yeah. First, some news. Mm-hmm. And I just mean in Hollywood, not in... Why is something going on? Did you see that Dune prophecy and the Penguin will be broadcast on the Home Box Office Network

as well as streaming on Max the streaming app? And that clarity and reason has come back to Hollywood. Recently, you know, I've been... I can't lie, I've been online a little bit recently. And I saw hashtag recently. It seems like it's having a great impact on your life. I feel good. My nerves are good.

Everything's good faith, super cool. And the hashtag was, it's coming home. And I believe it was in reference to the penguin and dune. Finally being freed from their exile on the Mac service and being brought under the big tent. Two classic HBO-esque titles. Yeah.

A few weeks ago, we talked about how HBO was, basically reclaiming some of its branded IP content from Max Originals. Harry Potter series, Lanterns, the Green Lantern series, and the It prequel, Welcome to Dairy, which is not, in fact, part of the Dairy Girls Extending Universe. I refuse to accept that. These two shows being, I don't know whether they're further along and developed, closer, I guess, Penguins, certainly. He's got some first images of Dune Prophecy, so.

They were apparently not part of that, the deal because of extant, like, international licensing that was done before they were... Anyway, somehow, crazy they figured that out. Which is a testament, by the way, to the head of the company, David Zazlav's forward-thinking, business-friendly, political approach, right? He's like, I don't care who wins the election as long as I can make the penguin in HBO original.

That was probably... Maybe I'm paraphrasing. Yeah. That was his project 2025. Literally. We gotta get this penguin on HBO. DCU on HBO. Wait till he finds out what the penguin's about.

You guys mean it's not about a penguin? Do you think from his discovery background, he just assumes these are all nature shows? Yeah, everybody's like, Dave, can we get the penguin on HBO? He's like, uh, I mean, it seems like it's got a natural home on animal planet. I, do you have a take on this other than at least consistency has been brought back to the force? Like, it would have been even weirder. All the bad headwinds and all for all the like dark omens of Horizon part two being pulled from theaters before release

and everything in the world seems to be coming out in 2025 and nothing is coming out in 2024. Right. This just makes sense. It just makes sense that we're not trying to sell people on a bifurcated, you know, like it's Max, but it's on HBO, but HBO is on Max. And Max is a thing, but it's also a service. And I know that probably the folks over at that company are like,

this makes sense and people actually do understand it. But my hope and dream for Hollywood, aside from everybody being, happy and healthy is that we just start to make things a little bit more clear on like, yes, this is on FX on Hulu. And like, you know, like, although the bear when it, when you watch it, as I do in the natural place, which is Disney Plus. Yeah, right. It says Hulu original.

It doesn't say FX at all. Then it says FX Studios. I think the, the broadest argument that you could make to the, you know, the middle of the electorate, you know what I mean? Not the people swayed by media is, or op-eds. let's say, is that HBO's brand, at least as the people who make HBO

want their brand to be, they want to continue the legacy that HBO stuff is of a high quality. And whether the types of shows they make might change, but now, especially in the last few years, since the merger and since Max was brought under Casey Blois at HBO,

they are saying this is all going through the same process. And so more good HBO's is good, particularly when, HBO shows is a tile within the larger streaming service. I think it does make sense that it is a perhaps unnecessary dilution

of the work they're doing if some of their shows show up on the streamer as HBO, some of it show up as Max, but all of them are, as they are, next to Big Bang Theory and the original The Penguin Show, which is about a sassy penguin.

Yeah, I think it's just like, the more, I don't want contraction. I don't want economic hardship for people. But I do think we need to get back to some best practices when it comes to easily communicating to people where they can find something. And honestly, also, economic hardships are really being felt by the people who are trying to find stuff and pay for services. And obviously you can just elect, like, I just want Netflix. It is what it is. But like, I would love to see some more things where it's like, hey, I don't have to have seven services to watch the Olympics. You know?

or I don't need to have three different services to watch the... I like your hard pivot to populism. Just getting ready. You think this is going to be on the market for it? That's interesting. Before we move, I think there's a good segue here to one of our other news items,

which is about what the hell we're doing in the world TV. But can I just check in with you on... Can I take your penguin temperature because I am really spun around here? Okay. Because there's a Colin Farrell show coming. Yeah.

Which we already got one this year. Yes. and I stuck with it with, you know, mixed results. I love him so much that I will watch the show. It just is bizarre that this is the show. I was not a big fan of that movie. It seems like a Saturday Night Live sketch that left containment. Yes.

You know, and I think it will probably be really cool. Where are you like the Matt Reeves, the Batman verse, is really my home away from home? I am completely uninterested in it. That movie did not make a story. strong argument to me that this was a place I'd ever wanted to visit. Sometimes when I ask you really, really sober questions like that, and I realize that we're both in our mid to late 40s and that we're still talking about whether or not Matt Reeves is the Batman versus where we want to be. Look, there are a lot of things at the moment that are like, is this really what my adult life

is going to be? Should I die? That's the least of my concerns. I, in a way, it's an opportunity to resurrect an argument that we were both trying to make, I think, with some sincerity, like 10 years ago, which was, ah, the brave new future of massive IP consolidation and entertainment is the Trojan horse method. Yeah. Right. You want to make a crime show. You have to put it in Star Wars. You have to call it the penguin.

It doesn't mean that Lauren LeFrank, who ran the show and all the really talented actors that they recruited to make it. Like, they could be making the crime show of their dreams. I mean, Colin Farrell doesn't miss. Right. And now it's an HBO show. So the stakes have been raised, honestly. I had a couple other things for you. Number one is just a recommendation.

To you, maybe your older daughter, though I don't know it's right on the edge, and to everybody listening to the sound of my voice, which is that I've been watching this show called My Lady Jane on Amazon. It is a comic period piece fantasy that my wife got me into,

and it's based on a series of novels, but it's created by someone named Gemma Burgess and it is so funny and delightful it's basically like you know what if we went back to King Edward and the succession plan around him

but also people could turn into animals okay I didn't see that coming it's a curveball but I'm looking at the Wikipedia it says it stars Jordan Peters isn't he the kind of like man's rights no it's it's Emily Bain Oh, that's Jordan Peterson. I'm sorry.

And then also Dominic Cooper and Rob Brydonner did it. And it's very, very funny. Yeah. That's cool. I knew that I had a sense this was coming because, you know, sometimes you, your TV viewing moves in silence, but I got a text from your wife about it. Oh, okay. Well, you were on it, too.

She's on a street team. She's really like, please make sure you throw your weight behind this show getting renewed. And I was like, I don't think that you really overestimate the watches. I don't know. I don't know. We'll see. I think a lot of people are like, that's nice that you like that, but aren't like, I'm going to make a multi-million dollar decision based on what Chris and Andy like.

I'd like to, my counterpoint is the gold was renewed. That's true. That's true. Speaking of England and the gold, I wanted to ask you, a question that I already know the answer to. The England national team won their semi-final match against Netherlands and the Euros. In thrilling fashion.

In thrilling fashion. Ollie Watkins with like a 90th minute, goal, which was expertly taken. It was. Do you know he said he was going to make that shot? He said that he swears on his children's life that he told Cole Palmer, you and I are going to go on

the field and you are going to set me up for a goal. That's what I said in 2014 to you, and I was like, we're going to have an HBO show about Game of Thrones. About penguins. Yeah, we're going to do the after show. Half it came true. But the reason why I was bringing this up

is there is a video going around from the Killers O2 Arena show So cool Basically at the same time So this match took place In Dortmund and Germany And then the killers were playing in England

Is it O2? Is that Wembley or is that Wembley Ajase? Has Wembley A Jacee? Has Wembley been renamed? It is I think it's Wembley Jeter. I think it's the Wembley Arena Basically so it's like when Madison Square Garden Theater but the killers do very well Oh, it's the indoor arena

I see, yeah, got it. And the killers were stopped their show to show the last I don't know, 10, 20 minutes of this match. Ali Watkins scores. Jude Bellingham dribbles the ball out. The time goes off.

The clock goes. The whistle goes. The fucking killers shoot red and white confetti into the crowd and immediately go into Mr. Brightside. That is probably a top 10 moment in the history of England, like other than winning World War II. If you were there and you cared about both of those things. Sure.

And you were like, oh, it sucks that I'm going to miss the semi, but I've had these killers tickets forever. Yeah. And you see there. You get to see the end of the match. On big screens, yeah. It's summer in England. You're already mad for it.

And then they go into Mr. Brightside. Aren't you like this is as good as it's going to get? Yes. As uncomplicatedly, like, I was watching this as like, if I was somebody at this show, I would be like, I don't understand how life gets better than this. I know. First of all, it's a nice thing to see what it feels like

when countries are happy. I think that must be a great feeling. I also think it's worth noting that outside of you, no one is better at being honorary English than Brandon Flowers and the Killers. Like, they accept the mantle. Yes. You know, they know what they're playing with.

I also love this period of the killers where there's just like 17 musicians on stage. Like, they are like basically a big band. Well, it's like when I saw, the last time I saw Fleetwood Mac and Madison Square Garden, and it was with a full band. And then I, but I had kind of like side views,

You can see the other band behind the band. The other band behind the screen playing songs also. Yes. Yeah, also. That's cool. Yeah. I love it. I mean, Mr. Brightside is, I think, the national anthem of England.

It is one of the most popular songs in his, as it should be, there. I think it's fantastic. That is a really thrilling thing to see. Do you think, well, I guess I have two questions. Like, what, is there anything that would have been better? I mean, obviously, Oasis Reuniting. and coming out from behind the confetti. Doing catmine and watching the national?

Paul Meskell, sniffing something out of a bag. Allegedly. Allegedly. But what if he did it with like kind of like a lesser Britpop band? Oh, like space or gene getting back together? Dodgey, yeah. That would have been interesting. Do you like the every four years when you suddenly start getting peppered with texts from me being like,

who's this bloke on the outside? He's got a nice first step. Oh, that's your first step. I was telling you about how I think Rodry is the Antichrist, because he's clearly just like pout for pout, like the best football player in the world, but he plays from Manchester City, which means he's my sworn enemy.

Sure. And he, like, honestly has like, if I feel like if Rodry was 8% less good, Liverpool would have another title. But I have so much hate in my heart for him. And he's like, he seems like a good guy who passes to his friends. He struck it well.

Yeah, you got to say, it is a really clean feeling only watching international football. You know, I have no club allegiances. I just assume all these guys are best friends. It doesn't really that you're not watching the U.S. and they fired their coach this week.

I'm ready for what's next. I didn't like the style of play under Burrhalter. Everybody knows that about me. Yeah, I know. You're notorious. Hey, you mentioned Paul, Meskell. Did you watch the Gladiator 2 trailer? Oh, yeah.

How many times? Twice so far. Okay. How about you? Multiple times. I did a video with Sean that's coming out soon where we talked about the, we broke it down. You did a video? Is it in the spirit of the metal draft?

No, it was just me and Sean trying to get our bodies to look like Paul Nescles on camera. It didn't work. No, we just broke it down and we had our reactions. I was just curious whether

are you in Don't Get Fooled Again territory with major motion pictures? Absolutely not. I love movies. I love the hope and possibility of a big budget trailer. My mind is a little split right now because I'm thinking about

the Faustian bargain. Like if someone came to you and was like, Chris, I am the person who makes Jake Jillen Hall look like that for Roadhouse and Paul Meskell for Gladiator too, I will show you the dark arts, but then you have to like know what it takes

and also deal with the repercussions. Would you take the deal? You mean in like my renal system? Yeah, I don't know what they're pushing. I'm sure it's just like keto, right? Just like some healthy greens. Yeah, I'm sure. Would you take the deal?

No, I feel like I've actually like moved past that point where I ever have any desire to be that swole. It wouldn't actually make me attractive person. First of all, you're already in a trip. But it's, I mean, whatever terms I have

are personality based, you know? But don't you think you could just like, it's like, you know, putting cheese on something, like it makes it taste better. I think middle age guys, especially with my hairline who get like incredibly cut

are a bit disturbing. They were, the energy is off. Yeah, at my age, yeah. Okay. The energy is definitely off. Okay. Those guys might be able to lift,

but can they pod, you know? Are you going to talk about the movie? Are you excited? about Projecta Blasso being back in his room? You and Sean just fucking roiding together is kind of an exciting thought. I have no take other than my take from F1 last week, which is like, let's go.

This is what I want from movies. This is awesome. I couldn't care. I hope more people make the choice when they're in movies like this. Like, I don't want someone who's like, I'm going to study the speech patterns of ancient Latin.

You guys need to calm down. Everybody out there's like, what kind of accent is this from Denzel? And I'm like, not Latin. It's Denzel. Like, have you guys ever seen any movie from the 60s or 70s? Like, people are just being themselves in Togas. Sometimes not even on camera.

That's just what life was like in Hollywood. He's got the hoop earring in. He's doing the training day laugh. Remember when Homeland came out? And then there was, like, a bunch of shows that felt like home, like they were trying to catch that Homeland Wave. This is the Top Gun Bavric Wave. Is Eflin a gladiator two?

This is a smart observation. But it's like, why don't we get any, insanely famous and popular person to somewhat, even if just spiritually reprise, like a role that they're known for. So in Brad Pitt's case, it's like he's Billy Bean if he drove cars. And this is if Detective Alonzo was also a Roman senator.

Yes. And then they will educate a young man. Also, it just seems like, and then you get, what's our guy's guy's name, Fred Hackinger, and Joseph Quinn. It's just like deviant Targaryen. boys. And also, I couldn't really, you can never, from the shape of these trailers, but it kind of looks like Pedro Pascal is in a war movie that everyone else is sort of watching.

And then he comes back and he's like, did you see the sick movie I made at war? Oh, I'm the villain now also. Right. Great. This is fine. One takeaway that I feel like, again, you know this better than I do, but like one of the, the through line that runs through the rewatchables podcast and also like, you know, the, the repertory screenings that sometimes we go to at the vista or the arrow or vidiates is like joy. Like movies can make people feel really, really good. And new movies seem often deeply disconnected from that. And so reconnecting into sometimes if that means just Xeroxing elements, I don't see the problem

with that. That is not in a world that makes, you know, that is rebooting the DC universe for the fourth time in 10 years, making a movie that feels good. like other movies used to, does not seem cynical to me. Yeah, that was actually, you know, I, I respect and financially support to the extent that I'm capable, Kevin Costner's vision. But one thing that got, I think that there was an, there was an opening there for him to make like a truly just awesome Western about a guy who helps a town.

Yes. And he didn't. And now, he made a four-part TV show that he's only going to make two parts of. But you're right. There is a, we've kind of abandoned. crowd-pleasing, which is different than feel good. Yes, I agree. I wonder if there's an opportunity, Sean and Amanda

probably already done this, but like, if you were just going to do a movie draft based on the vibes that you want back, because they're learning that if you certain, like the Top Gun Maverick thing, like let's just clone this in a lab like Jurassic Park and we'll just set it at loose again and what could go wrong, but it works. There's a whole genres or types of movies that, God damn it, we used to make in this country. This week I rewatched Aaron Brockovich. Oh, good for you. Why don't we make more Aaron Brockovich's? Because they're on Apple TV now. Yeah, but they're not. Those suck. Like a movie.

You know what I mean? Like a fucking movie with Albert Finney or who, you know, contemporary equivalent. Julia Roberts, maybe Julia Roberts again or contemporary equivalent, Soderberg. And like, let's just fucking go. It seems like they shot that movie in three weeks on Lancash and Bolivart. He was making fucking traffic. I didn't know. I didn't know. It was crazy. But it was a good-ass script.

Yeah. I don't know. I know I'm a little, I'm too jaded about TV because of, you know, being around the business. Then when it comes to movies, I'm like, why don't you guys do that again? The playoffs are here. And you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses.

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to find millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas. Terms apply. We got to talk about the other Apple stuff. We got to talk about the severance trailer. Okay. Can we lay some ground rules here? Sure.

I am, I still like a lot of people involved. No, you let me do it. Let me do it. You always do this. You walk the plank for art. I'll do it. You know, and you're like, you're full of arrows, and I want you to rest. It's been too long.

It's been too long. I'm not going back to rewatch Severn season one. It's going to have been three years since this show is on. Technically, two years and 11 months since it premiered. Okay. I understand that there was COVID and strikes. So give, like, a complete pass on that. I just mean

whatever is going on over there this is not how TV should work. This is the correct thing. If it was Sherlock and it was three episodes of severance every three years, fine. Or if it was telling

contained stories within the world of severance and then moving on. Oh, Helen Mirren's available. We've got a cracking new case for her. If White Lotus wants to take four years and then come back. Doesn't matter.

Totally makes sense. This is a show that you basically are going to need to know frame-by-frame detail and Easter eggs of from the first season into the second season. And I just personally think that while I think it's going to be fun

because in December maybe a bunch of people will be like, we should re-watch seven season one. Like, I just think three years is too long of a break and we need to like, we need to get on top of this. Well, this is also, this is like the, this is what happens when we make TV like this. It's the same thing with the old man,

the FX show that is coming back almost like out of, I didn't finish the first year. Shear stubbornness. Me either. And that is over two years, I think, ultimately it'll be since it was on. When we build these packages, and I think they're moving away from this, I think the industry is realizing this is unsustainable, both financially and in terms of audience engagement. But like when we build these packages that are like the old man was, which is like John Watts, director of Spider-Man, Jeff Bridges, he's doing a TV show.

The stakeholders are very, very, very expensive and very, very set in their way. and work at their schedule that they want to work on. Now, again, there's always things. That was also affected by COVID. That was also affected by strikes. Jeff Bridges had a health scare. He had a cancer. I mean, there are real reasons why.

I'm not saying, like, they're lazy. I'm just saying it's very, very challenging, and we are going to put ourselves out here as the audience to say this. You want us to be week-to-week, edge of our seat, engaged with our characters and our stories and these worlds. Three years is too long. These are not Blockbuster films. It's just too long.

And they're tinkering on it. They've, you know, who knows what's been going on behind the scenes. Severance is a huge production. It is an expensive production. I appreciate all of those things. It looks like there's like a dozen executive producers involved in it. I'm not trying to be like... It feels like it's buckling under the weight of what they've put on it.

Right. I'm not trying to sound like ungrateful for a show as interesting and in-depth and deep and, like, heavy is severance. And it's incredibly entertaining and I really enjoyed the first season. I'm just saying that, like, this was, there was also, like, from my viewpoint, a whole in Q4 programming in television. I don't know what is coming out after industry, to be completely honest. And now everything, much like the movies, next year we're going to have probably severance and or White Lotus, the Mark Ruffalo Philly Cop Show. Last of Us. Last of Us.

I said Andor. Stranger Things. Squid game. Right. That's a lot of stuff. Agatha all along is coming this fall. That's your show. That's true.

Good shout. You're psyched about that. Let's talk about presumed innocent. Okay, we're staying in the Apple extended universe. Yes. Yeah. Broadstrokes, I did not particularly care for episodes four and five and I really enjoyed episode six.

That's where I'm at. Okay. So we're going to be spoiling up through episode six of Presumed Innocent, which is essentially the sort of real meat and potatoes of the trial has begun. You can feel the TV show inside of the long-ass movie, and you can also feel the long-ass movie inside of the TV show, and it kind of alternates from scene to scene. I personally feel like for as edifying and lovely as it is to see Ruth Negga

have like a fully fleshed out arc. Yep. And I have my eye on some of the stuff going on on that side of the show in terms of how it relates back to the Carolyn murder mystery. Yep. When she's like, now I'm going to Clifton's art show. I was just like, please, can we get back to like who killed this person? It's deeply uninteresting and not working at all.

Yeah, I agree. And doesn't it almost feel like someone threw darts at words on a wall and it was like, what could she be into? Let's say she meets a bartender. But he's also into art. Yeah, and he's also into, why can you just be a bartender? Well, because then it's like what she, it, because then I guess you'd be hanging out at the bar the whole time.

But it's also like what, you know, she needs someone who's worthy of her or whatever. Like they're trying to dignify every. It's the same act of like, we need to make this character more interesting. We need to dignify her with a rich inner life and also wants. and needs and desires, which is true. I mean, that's making dramatic television. But within a show like this, there's not room for it. But then there's conversely too much room.

You're 100% right about the show pushing up against the boundaries of its chosen fence line. They chose to do eight episodes. My takeaway might be, yeah, there's a reason why it was a movie. Yeah. Possibly. I'll say this. One of the ways that I think you could define something that is artistic, or interesting is if it makes choices.

Presumed Innocent has made a bunch of choices. Sure has. Shout out to Bill Camp's exploded head. Okay, well, I'm coming back to that. It remains worthwhile because it does make some choices, even if some of the choices are inexplicable or head scratching, not to mention head exploding. The biggest choice that it seems really committed to is making the lead character of Rusty Savage

a fucking roided out ragehead who clearly is a murderer. I'm not saying that because I know the story. Yeah, I know what's happening. But he's a shithead. Like, he sucks, which is a really wild choice. Yeah. It seems like an actorly choice that I know nothing about it, but it feels like an actually choice

that Jake Gyllenhaal was interested in. There's a reason why Harrison Ford was cast in the movie, which is because you always think of him heroically, even though he has played against type. And that worked. There's also like a little bit of danger to Harrison Ford. You know, obviously not like, even when he's playing a good guy, he's playing a bad boy good guy. Correct.

Or a rebellious, you know, a guy with a rebellious streak. And then he was so interesting. I talked about this on Ryan Rusillo's podcast, actually, is the way he would tinker with his persona by doing frantic and doing witness and doing presumed innocent. And I think that Jake Gyllenhaal also thinks he's tinkering with his persona. Correct. but the read and like the way Jake

Jollen Hall is reading this material and the way everyone else in the show is reading the material is quite different it is and there are two performances in this show that I think are stellar and that's Sarsgard and Camp they're they're galaxy tier they're so good in the show

the my I really am trying to get out of the habit of being like they should have just done this because I I just think that that's a useless kind of observation right But Tommy Moldo is the most interesting person on this show. And if there was like some world in which a TV series about presumed innocent was made from the perspective of a deeply insecure... Unlikeed.

Unlike like a guy who has like a lot of like his own bridge issues that get translated in a much different way because he's not also shooting Roadhouse. Like I think that would have been fascinating. Yeah, I also think that the challenge. of the show is that when you go for eight episodes, you have to be, and this is also what David Kelly has always been interested in, and why he was likely interested in this project, is you have to split your time between the work rusty

and the home rusty, the on trial rusty, and the in between the days of trial rusty. And there's something very compelling and interesting, I think, about someone who is a alpha-alpha go-getter at work, but maybe allows the armor to come off at home and is a good father, you could be alpha and a good father, I just mean shows different colors of his personal rainbow when he's at home.

Yeah. What we've seen, because of the nature of the show, you know, starting basically at the moment of the news and then moving forward, is he just seems like an asshole. Yeah. All the time to everyone. And that bumps when you have his daughter turning towards him as she does in episode six for reasons that, you know, again, if we were spending more time with her, like, she wants her dad to be innocent and she wants to love him. She does love him. Like, that works, but we're not seeing enough of that nuance. Similarly, his reaction to Barbara inexplicably telling him that she just had a chased smooch with a performance insulation artist with really good hand cream.

And he's just, and he like assaults her, basically. Yeah. Nobody's coming off super well there. Yeah. Initially, my issues, obviously, you're right. That's the sound bite from this episode. Yeah. Rusty is just like pure

Albert Bell 90s Cleveland like out of his mind but I think the thing that initially really like distracted me from like being in the zone of the show is like this this Bunny Davis plot which I think will obviously

they'll land that somehow but like when you're watching somebody and there's lots of movies novels shows about characters who are over the edge characters who are losing, you know, are into deep. And there's something usually you have to really abide by, which is like, everybody in the room can think they're in too deep, but the audience needs to know that they may be in too deep, but they're right. Right. And everyone else thinks

they're crazy, but I, I have to say that even as an audience member, even if it winds up having a huge impact on the actual murder case of presumed innocent, trying to figure out why Rusty is just like, this was orchestrated by a man we put in prison wrongfully, and he, who seems like a guy who, which he is, eats his own nails,

has somehow, like, coordinated a hit on this person is almost beyond, like, comprehension. That said, the nature of investigative who-done-it shows like this demands certain things.

You know, it demands red herrings. It demands people to chase leads down, dead end alleyways. But that would have been in Broadchurch, that would have been like one episode. Well, but I mean all of, for me, all of those sins are forgiven

once the trial starts. Because now we're making a trial show. And David E. Kelly knows how to do that. So let's talk about that. And the banter is good and the conversations are good. Everything before that was very oddly A, paced, but be executed. Culminating in, you reference it. I have to talk about it. A lot of time spent with Bill Camp's dreams, the head exploding thing

was so insane to me not just because of what show is this that does this. I mean, if you're listening to us, you know, but Bill Camp essentially has a dream while he's asleep. He has a sleep, the dream from his bed that he's at the office having acid reflex and then maybe a heart attack and then his head explodes, quite graphically like scanner style.

No, like the boys style. That is a that is not a cheap FX shot. And that to me was an example of the problem potentially of making shows for Apple where they're like, yeah, sure. $50,000, $100,000, $250,000 to get this FX shot.

So you're like, what if we had more limits? Yes, art is better with limits sometimes. Like, that didn't help. That felt like a plea for attention in an essential episode that basically circled the drain of Rusty's acting like a crazy person. Then the trial starts,

and I could watch a trial show forever. I really enjoyed the episode. Everybody's in their bag. It's also just like a bunch of like theater vets like cooking like that is really, that's a stage. It's just great. Yeah, and it brought us back to the scene when the judge

brings everyone into chambers and is like this is not murder one. You're also not getting off here. So why can't we just speed this along? And everyone is just pouting like a eight year old. It's just like, oh yeah, this show is best when it's just dudes rock in 12 Angry Dudes Rock, basically. Like these guys, like

the little bitch boy brigade with Nico and his pinched mouth, like always mad now, he's so mad at Tommy all the time. Why does he let Tommy do it? Their relationship is so fascinating because it's so unconventional for these kinds of shows. That's great. And then Bill Camp is

so phenomenal. Like, this has proven all of my priors that all TV has made better when Bill Camp is in it. I just think Gabby is really good. The one plays Maya. I'd never seen her before. I guess she's a stage actor. Her energy, she comes in, like, relief pitcher thrown a little bit different.

Very cool. She's just looking at the ones and zeros, though. Like, she's, like, you know, Rusty's, like, raging around and, like, emotionally trying to plead. And she's just, like, I wouldn't buy that. Yeah. Do you feel like there's anyone in your professional life at the ringer who would testify, like, Dr. Kumagai about you? Who would be like, I'm here professionally. Yes, I think he's an asshole.

Yeah. Like, do you have Kumagai's in here? I hope not. Would you? I'd like to say no. But then, you know, I don't work in the office here. Sure. So that's why I stay independent. Anything else about the, we've got two more?

Well, I would just say that if Bill Camp's heart exploded at the end of the episode, like his head did in the previous one, I will be incredibly disappointed. This is the rare instance where I'm like, please make this a, we got it in the episode somehow. Do you think Rusty takes over his own defense in episode seven? I'm chilled to the bone as the thought of that. That is what I thought. It would be great if it was like Randy Savage. He was just like shortless defense attorney. But like, look, let's see how this ends.

It's an entertaining show. We need entertaining shows in the summer. But I don't like, I could be wrong about this. They could steer out of it. But I'll just say purely with what we've been given, I don't like the optics of a show that says Rusty's irresponsible behavior has fucked up everything including now killing his best friend.

Yeah. That idea of like that maybe works well when you're stroking your chin in the writer's room, like, ah, you know, it's, you can't escape the stench of what this guy has done. If it robs us of the show's best actor and best character, who maybe could be shocked by the actual revelations at the end or whatever,

That's a bummer to me. So I'm hoping that we're just being cliffhanger jerked around. I hope so, too. We've had a couple, you know, Jaden, although Jaden might come back around. Not Jaden, Kyle. Do you know, Chris, like, as a, not a doctor, but someone who watched the entirety of House MD when it was on, what is the success rate of paddles, of defibrillators? You know what? I don't really know, because it seems like they're getting real good at medicine. Mostly, yeah. Yeah, in a lot of ways. So maybe they've, maybe they've,

Maybe the paddles are new. Like maybe they've got some new jolts going through people's bodies. I'm not really sure. Oh, you think they've like recalibrated? By the time they get to house, they've got a mystery illness. So they're post paddles. Oh, I know. I just mean I felt like that was your medical school watching the show.

I just would like to know the reality-based numbers. You know, when I look, you know, I rarely actually watch sports, but I just look at like the game cast on ESPN. It's like, oh, win probability, 77.6, feeling good. Like, what is the wind probability of... I'm such a psycho. I'm a numbers guy. What is the wind probability of defibrillators in the field? The better question is, what is the wind probability of Rusty?

Because you're really making the point here that, like, you kind of don't want him to get off at this point. I mean, they're playing it that way. We got 45 seconds of this guy giving his kid a hard time about his off-speed stuff. And that's all the normal rust we've gotten. No, we saw him in the beginning being good at court. Oh, yeah. That's right.

I think there's an interesting... And swimming a lot. There's an interesting project to be made about someone who is an asshole, but isn't a murderer. Like, that's... That is an interesting idea. That's interesting that... I don't know if I would have signed up for that. To watch.

There's... I feel like there's like, this is a similar criticism that I was making in broad strokes about the Bear season three, which is that there are things that are compelling as ideas, as pitches, as art, but maybe they work better in novels than in a... the propulsive expectation of a week-to-week TV show. It's just, there's a stagnation there that is hard to sit with. And you walk away being like, well, that's a good point, as opposed to, oh, shit. It's just, it's different.

So I don't know if that was the goal here. Or maybe that's what Jake wanted to be making. All right, you brought up the bear. So that's as good of a time as any to get into our bear mail bag. So thanks. Let's take a quick break and then we'll get into the bear mail bag. This episode is brought to you by the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo, that's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards

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365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of of spring save at Whole Foods Market. Andy, first of all, thank you to everybody in the Facebook group for sending in such thoughtful questions. I did really want to keep the conversation about the Bear Season 3 going. Also, because I feel like my opinion, your opinion about this season and about certain episodes is ever evolving. So we're going to get right into it with the most important question. Adam asks, what size Zin pouch would you recommend Karmie start with? There were a bunch of Zin questions for Kami.

nicotine gum is a huge factor for him this year. I mean, that journey must have been really riveting for you, his journey to... It kind of was like looking back on home movies and wishing I could go back and tell myself then what I know now. Which is? Use lozenges. Do not get into the gum. Because the gum, I think, really exacerbated TMJ for me.

Oh, because gum is not good either, right? Not because of the nicotine delivery. When people chew gum, it's usually a pretty, like, casual, like, I have a piece of gum in my mouth. When you're chewing nicotine gum, you're like trying to gnaw to get to this core of the earth because you think there's more nicotine somewhere in there. Or at least this is how I chewed nicotine gum. And so like I would really get after it and I think ground down my teeth and really hurt my jaw. And Carmie's already wired pretty fucking tight.

But now we're proud brothers of the night guard, right? Yeah. Well, I mean, I feel like almost everybody is now. I know, but I feel like we should normalize talking about it. Big night guard has made so much money. The watcher is a night guard podcast. Okay, yeah. Let's admit it.

Yeah. Great. And if any night guard... Night guardians? Yeah. Night guardians? Should we change the name? I think so.

So for me, Zinn would have been crucial for Karmie. Now, you said what size Zin pouch? I assume you mean milligrams? Yes, that's definitely what they meant. I do think that if Karmie went to sixes, he would have settled on a menu by now. You think that would have leveled him out? No, I just think that he needs something to, like, focus him and to, like, I think if Karmie through two sixes.

is in, you guys would have a very set menu at the bear by now. Can I ask you something really like nuts and bolts? I do think Karm would have been arrested for workplace malpractice by this point. I want to confess something to you. I don't actually understand what a Zin Pouch is. And I want to confess to you that I've been, here's what I've been imagining. I've been imagining a bag, not unlike a upscale luxury tea bag, that is full of small needle-like delivery systems

that you crunch and they poke you and inject your gums with some sort of like cooling, menfolated nicotine products. Somewhat like that. Okay. But there's lots of flavors. Okay.

And you just toss it in your mouth and put it up underneath your upper lip in between your lip and your gum. Is it a little tea bag? That's like that big. It's about the... What is it? An inch.

What's it made out of? Nicotine salt and other food products. Does it dissolve it? into your mouth, or do you remove the bag? Eventually, you remove the bag. You remove the bag. Okay. Just spit it out.

But you don't chew it, or does that, what happens if you chew it, Chris? I'm sure there's somewhere on Reddit. If I can feel good juice? Yeah. But yeah. Is the consistency soft? Does it mold to your... You don't notice it after a while.

How many are in your mouth right now? None. None. Open? Let me see. I've been very nervous to go too deep into the stash because I don't know when the usual suspects are getting restocked. Zinn is a huge Zinn shortage right now, at least

in Los Angeles. Wow. Okay. Okay, so yeah, I'm pro-Karmie should have gotten on Zins. I think that's a different show. Do you think Yeah, I mean, there's no world anymore. Does anyone just quit anymore? Like, no nicotine? Yeah, yeah. I hear, I mean, Malaney talked about it on his show where you had the hypnotist, and I think... My dad had a hypnotist, yeah. My mom did that, too. I think that there's a thing I'm comfortable admitting is I don't want to quit nicotine. Yeah, I appreciate that.

And I'm not here to say that, like, there's a lot of podcasts out there. It'll be like, nicotine's actually, like, makes you smarter. I'm not so sure about that. But I have no interest in experiencing life without it. What does your guy, Dr. Huberman, say? He's not my guy, and he is actually pro-nucatine. Did I... So my mom claims that she quit smoking when she was pregnant with me.

I don't believe it, but she claims that it's why I'm not as, tall as I should be. You should be real tall. I should be on the Olympic team right now. That she was hypnotized and it worked. Yeah. And then... That was my dad, too. And then she just, like, she just went full Benson and Hedges again once I was in the world. And secondhand smoke hadn't been invented yet. Just driving around and, like, you know, the yellow Ford station. We were going to, like, restaurants when we were like six and there would be like, we would be sitting in the non-smoking section. And there'd just be a giant cloud of cigarettes, two tables over. Yeah, that really made a difference. Yeah.

And then one of the more fateful days in my childhood was we were at the pool, and I got out of the pool, like the neighborhood, like whatever. And I got out of the pool and reached for my still sweating can of Coca-Cola. You found a pack of cigarettes? No, she had been ashing in it. And I remember the taste. Of course you do. And I think that was when I was like, I heard smoking's bad. You have to quit.

And she said, yes, I'll quit when I turn 40, which she said, because, like, that would never happen. Yeah. And then she did quit, to her credit, and was hypnotized again. But to my eternal... Was the hypnotist a little annoyed? Like, you've undone my work? I think it was a different one. Okay.

Because it is... Because you get into inception when you're, like, layering hypnotisms on top of one. I have been reminded multiple times in the ensuing decades that it didn't take the second time, but she quit anyway for me. That's good. Nobody's happy about it. You and my mom should talk. You both love Sigs. Kevin asks, you guys have often mentioned that shows tend to run at their best when feeling

like they might get canceled or just not knowing how much more leeway they have. Do you think that the bear becoming so massive between seasons two and three and then getting an early renewal at all affected

how the show was made in terms of saving things for the final season and not quite emptying the tank the way the first two seasons did? It's a good question. I wouldn't necessarily say shows are better

when they might get canceled. But what you're referring to, Kevin, I think, is Andy's talked before about like emptying the whiteboard, right? Like, it's just like all the ideas. that you have should go into the show while you still can make the show, correct?

Yes. You never know how much time you're given. I think that's true in many things. I would also say that it is not as easy as that glib argument that I constantly make. Mad Men, which I've compared the bear to this season, famously did that. I mean, Weiner used all of his ideas every season, and that's why every season finale basically is a series finale. and then he would start fresh. What happened when he did that was some seasons didn't feel as energetic. Yeah. The whole project works.

I mean, believe me, I'm not criticizing Mad Men, but the season that I keep referring to, I think it was season six, as a comp for the Bear's Season 3, did feel like treading water because I think that he didn't get and saved anything. I don't remember season six being bad. It's five or six. He swims all the time. That's John Cheever right there, man.

Yeah, that was a short story. okay um but so but wait so the question is like i i think that i think i would only i would put back on the framing of the question i would say kevin i this is a good question i presupposes that the bear got like uh that something changed between two and three uh and that the i do i don't know hopefully one day we'll get to ask chris about the season three and four renewal yeah and what it did to the creative process but the bear is you is a i think unusually efficient show. We were just complaining about severance. The bear shoots

in the early part of the year and is up by the middle part of the year. And I think that yes, it's become massive, but I don't think it changed what the story was going to be. Chris has often talked about I had the three seasons sort of mapped out. Yes, I think two things changed. And without

full, you know, on the record commentary about this, we're speculating. But I think two major things changed between seasons two and three of the bear. One was Disney and FX. They were like, it would be, from a fiduciary standpoint, it would be irresponsible for us to let you go ahead with your plan to end the show after three seasons. What can we do? Which isn't to say it was a top-down order.

Clearly, this was a collaboration, and they made decisions about the type of show they wanted to make, and for how long, and it was back and forth, like it often is, when shows that are successful are talking about ending. But there's no question that that conversation happened. Maybe it happened after season one. We don't really know the history of it. The other thing that changed during the duration of the bear on TV is that the industry completely changed. It was a selling point for projects like the bear to say, I've got three seasons of story, and we're going to do this and we're going to finish it, and I have the whole vision.

Between then, which wasn't that long ago, and now, the industry is like, it is not sustainable to make endless limited series. We need ongoing series all the time now. And that also changed fundamentally within the industry. Kyle asked a really good question. Based on what you've seen of the show, if you existed in the universe of the bear, would you go to the bear restaurant and do you think you'd like it?

I love this question. No. No, you wouldn't go or no, you don't think you'd like it? I think, so this is a, people think we probably, I think people might imagine that mostly what you and I text about is like television programs,

but mostly what we text about is how most restaurants are bad and we're not going to get fooled again. I am increasingly anti-new restaurant. I support my friends in the food and cooking communities, and I love good restaurants. But Houston's is good for a reason. Well, no, but genuinely, and I don't think I'm alone in this,

like, everything is really, really expensive. Yeah. And there are good reasons for that. You know, the show, the bear illustrates, like, how hard people work to make the food, the ingredients they go to. Like, that is passed on to the consumer, and it has to be for people to get,

because of the way this fucked up country is built for people to be properly paid for their labor and to have health care and all this stuff. That said, when you ask someone to take a $200 plus flyer on someone else's dream, that's a real question. That's a transaction, yeah. And based on my own life experience, when a restaurant opened and the story of the restaurant, like I'm pretending I live in Chicago. Yeah. Where I wouldn't last six months, let's be honest. way too cold. But the story is that this beloved neighborhood place is now rebranded as an upscale restaurant, tasting menu restaurant, led by a chef who's been, who worked at Danielle

at the French laundry, I would wait for the review. I would wait. Would you really? Not just because of the review to tell me whether it's good or not, but because like with many things, they hadn't, I'd wait for them to find their footing. I wouldn't be so, I didn't know these people personally. And I wouldn't be so. I wouldn't be so. compelled to be the first one to know or to Instagram about it that I'd want to go and be like, aha, one day this will be a great restaurant once it gets moving. I would, at that price point, sorry to dollars and cents it, I would be like, I will wait until I am more confident in return on investment.

Yeah. Which is maybe that's an older person with two kids' attitude. I don't know, because then you're paying for babysitters and stuff. I'm just saying, I would wait. I would wait. I think that I probably would wait for the. bear to calm down. Like in terms of like just being able to get in.

Oh, in the vibe, yeah, of course. Or being able to choose like, you know, I don't want to eat at five or nine. So can I find something in between there? I imagine that that would be an issue when something first opens and is a hot, tot ticket. It's interesting that the bear review that they're waiting on is the Tribune review, because usually there's like chatter about a restaurant, like online before like a daily newspaper weighs in. Oh, and if it was such a hot topic, like, Eater would have said something.

Yeah. There would have been, I mean, this isn't like Eater 10 years ago, but yes, there would be feedback. I personally, my version of the bear would be the version that was emerging out of the sandwich shop, but before it got changed the menu. A billion percent. If you were like, if you saw someone that you trusted, like the Roberts Yietam of Chicago being like, I stopped by for a beef sandwich, which I love and I've been writing about in the Chicago season. Now they're doing crazy stuff. But they also have this off-menu special. I'd be like, that sounds fun.

Let's go check that out. Totally. I also think this is, and maybe to bring it back into the conversation about the show that we had earlier in the week, the show currently is not that interested in the front of the house experience. And so. Well, I think they're showing that it's kind of miserable and that front of the house and the back of the house have to work in harmony and they're not. And that Richie is not getting the ever feeling at the bear. Yeah, and I don't mean the, like, Richie, that Richie and Sweeps and everyone else and Neil, like, they're not doing a good job. But I don't have a sense that people are dining there and being like, that was incredibly warm and fun and surprising experience to sit and eat six peas on a plate, you know, and have the welcome broth.

So that would keep me from it. If someone was like, yeah, it's tweezers food, but like, it's vibrant and it's fun. Yeah, this guy comes over and talks about Ridley Scott to you. I would, that would be appealing to me. And maybe that's where it's going. But like I also, we might not be the target audience because, yes, I have, I mean, as, as you know, I have, I have, I have dined at Noma. But like, I am not rushing to ever in Chicago. No disrespect to Curtis Duffy and everything.

But like that also doesn't, that seems intense. Going off of the, uh, the sort of real life restaurant aspect of the show, Jeff asks, what do you think you and Andy, uh, think of the bear using real life superstar show? chefs and restaurant tours as themselves alongside fictitious ones from the show. Does it add to the realism of the bear or does it take you out of the bear's universe when someone like Thomas Keller

shows up as themselves? So this season obviously featured Daniel Ballude, Renee Rzeppe in a wordless cameo. Keller gets a monologue and then several chefs essentially hold court at the ever funeral dinner while Sid

Karm and Luca are kind of like, hey and tell me about this and tell me about that. So that was a really interesting choice on Chris's part. I think that there's a really fine line between like Verissa Militude and then maybe like seating the floor too much to it. And I went back and forth about that, especially in the finale episode where I was like there's so much, I want to see so much Karm and Sid and Richie in this episode.

I guess my thing would be I understood the reason for the chef testimonials about the way they came up in the restaurants and what they really want to be doing with their cooking I feel like I kind of got that already and that I was a little bit like man this is this is the last episode of the season like are you guys going to get like let's get back to the story here

but I also respect the fact that like this show is not trying to do only one thing in the world it's trying to be also like a loudspeaker for like a new vision of restaurant tourism I guess Yeah, and he's also showing us the wellspring of passion and interrelated familial legacy community that birthed the world of the show within reality, like that Chris Storr and Courtney Stor come from and are connected to, and that inspired these characters and inspired the passion.

I think that that's really interesting to see that. I don't, I try to keep open mind. try to be open-minded about it because, like, as someone who consumes this media, like Thomas Keller talking about how to, I have watched video of Thomas Keller trusting a chicken before. I'm, I can, I can tell you that. I have made the Thomas Keller roast chicken not nearly as well, but I've tried to do that. Also, he's, so I don't mind seeing him do it again. Do you think it's weird that Carmi would be working at French laundry and not know how to take a wishbone out? Uh, yes, but maybe he was also like, just playing along, but show me how to do it

better because this is precious time with you. But yes, but I'm willing to do that. And also the spirit of the show, there's lots of hidden Easter eggs of friends and family. Like when they, when they pan to the reviewers that they took pictures of, like there's a picture of Sue Chan, who's like a, who's a very cool connected event planner within the restaurant world and she's pretend, but she's a critic in this world. They're nodding to people who have influenced them, whether directly or indirectly. How long gone, guys. Yes. Yeah. But, but I, I think that, there is, the concern would be that what's the most interesting thing here? And I think that it felt

misweighted perhaps because of the expectations of a finale. When I didn't take this, but it is a part of some of the criticisms that I felt, which is the finale seemed more interested in giving voice to people that the show admires as opposed to giving voice to the characters that the show created. I didn't leave that episode feeling that necessarily. But you understand that that was a criticism. It also doesn't need to, the show is an enormous, inspiring, and beautiful artistic success. It doesn't need to show its work anymore. It doesn't need to show us that they can get Danielle on the phone.

Yeah, I believe it. All of those chefs who were talking were talking about the power of positive mentorship, the act of nourishment and of like creating. moments for people that they'll remember beyond the food that they eat and Karmie's not listening. And I think that's like a very, Karmie's actually thinking about how he wants to go

tell another person in that restaurant, fuck you. I think that's a very important and underrated read of the scene that speaks to, I think, the project of what Karmie's doing that may be misunderstood because we didn't really see the B side of that play out. That's waiting for us in the next season. I'd also say that I kind of

appreciate the verisimilitude more when it's just deeply Chicago. Like the episode when Sid eats her way through Chicago, I don't know half of the people in that episode. I don't, haven't been to those restaurants. Yeah, and to save it for later. Oh, no, that was this season. Yeah, I know, but I just mean like that tour of Chicago, yeah. I'd be interested, and again, I think that's, I do believe that's coming, but connecting this restaurant to the community that it's in and the neighborhood in the city within Chicago is more interesting to me for the characters in the show than it is about connecting it to the larger thread of who

went to Noma when, which I went to, by the way. Did I mention that? I don't even know this is a really good question from David and it suggests it asks us to take on a lot more of the online criticism

and just general criticism of the show than I think we have maybe and I've been happy not to but David asks is it even possible for an it show quote unquote

it show to avoid a season three backlash at this point there are so many examples the bear Atlanta Ted Lasso that it feels like about anything it feels less about anything these shows did individually,

then it does a predetermined part of the take cycle. I'm convinced people would have found something to hate about season three of Fleabag at this point. Am I wrong to feel this way? I think that this could be a product of a shrunken to the point of non-existence monocultural conversation about TV shows. I don't actually think there are that many people talking about the bear online

or writing about the bear. as compared to say Game of Thrones or massive hit lost or something like that you know it's a better question to ask I think not to do this to you David where I'm like to re-engineer your question is would some of the more controversial shows

of or not even controversial but artistically brave shows of their eras madman Breaking Bad Lost whatever have survived a a cauldron of discussion that sort of TV Twitter has become and then take the sort of take economy on websites has become where it's like you can't just be like there were some issues I had with this season

but there were also some things I thought were good it's got to be like this show actually has always sucked yes exactly there is no such thing as good faith conversation debate or criticism online anymore if there ever was that that that ship has sailed right and whether you're talking about season three of the bear or the final season of America that we're all experiencing, like that is 100% the same reaction.

I'm in this question. I did not care for the third season of Atlanta as much as I liked the rest of the series. But there's a couple things that you have to consider when you have, like in real life, if you and I are out in the world and we're talking to friends, family, whomever about the bear,

it is not hard for people in the room with us or who we're talking to to understand that we love the show. love aspects of season three, can't wait for season four, are on board, but also have some objective and subjective criticisms

or nits to pick about it. You can contain the multitude of thoughts when you're having a real-life conversation. People cannot seem to do that online. So that's part of it. The other part of it is, as things have gotten more binary and absolute,

it causes us to kind of forget that TV shows are never perfect, ever. I mean, no art is perfect, but TV shows, especially shows that run more than two or three seasons. There's going to be weak episodes.

There's going to be swings and misses. There's going to be wild mistakes. Like, it's beautiful that lost us on Netflix now and seems to be having a much-deserved resurgence. It doesn't make the Nikki and Paolo's stuff better. You know, I don't even think Damon is getting in these menchies being like, aha, see, I'm validated by that. I think he thinks that they made some mistakes when making the show because that's what TV

was. It's not a movie. You just made more and more of them and you hope that ultimately you had a good batting average. So the fact that some things might not be as good is natural. And it also might not be a quality thing. I didn't watch Ted Lassau, but my understanding of the third season was that everything got bloated because of success, right?

Like episodes were really, really long, and characters were being serviced more than maybe they were in the first season when they were being a little stricter about what the show was and what its mission was. Well, I think that it's an interesting comparison. Ted Lassow seasons two and three to The Bear is that, you know, the more I talk about the bear, the more I like the third season. The more I think about scenes

like Carmen staring daggers at Joel McAil from across a restaurant while everybody else is talking about the funny, tender moments that they've had coming up through the ranks in a business. And I think you have to take it out of the context of like, was this good?

Did this top forks? And into like, you kind of meet it on its own terms. Ted Lasso, I think, was in this situation, not dissimilar from where the bear was, where there are a couple of moments in season one that left Earth, like just completely became like,

dude, watch this right now moments, crazily enough, because, like, of its, of its sort of origins as, like, a sketch on NBC sports. And I think the rest of the series sort of, like, either ran towards or ran away from it too fast. we came out of season three and the thing that you hear the most

when you chat with people about this show in a good faith contains multiple ways is, well, I'm not spoiling anything for you because nothing happens. And that is true. Like nothing, Carmen is basically in the same place in the beginning of the season as he is in the end. Sid is still as indecisive

about whether she's going to stay with Carmen or leave as she is in the beginning as she is in the end. Everything that happens in this series happens to tertiary characters. not in no disrespect to nap but like Natalie you know even

even Cicero he's broke now yeah he's broke now but everybody else with the exception of the very last moment when Carmen reads this review which we still don't know what it actually says is basically like in a holding pattern yeah Richie hasn't decided if he's RSVPing to the wedding for the entirety of the season

yes so I would go to Josh Hartnett's wedding I certainly would so I think that that's an issue where like the bear did not choose to try and top forks and fishes. And so people probably are, I think I could see some people being like, what happened to the show I love? I think that that taps into something else, which is crucial to understanding people's fandom and TV fandom and relationship to specific shows, which is it's deeply emotional. And we trust them, we sign up, and then we realize someone else is driving. And they might be driving to unfamiliar places or riskier places or things or something.

things that don't feel as good for whatever reason. And that affects our understanding of it. And sometimes as the king of having strong visceral reactions to things, I'm very, very sympathetic and empathetic to this argument. You know, I think hopefully when all is said and done after four seasons of the show, we will feel satisfied, but also Chris Storr and his entire team will feel satisfied because they took chances that felt right to them in the moment. Right.

Okay, so we can start to wrap it up here. for friends that are into the bear but haven't watched many other dramas what other shows would you recommend doesn't have to be restaurant related or as high stress so this question is coming for someone presupposes somebody who has not really watched

I guess just they just watch comedies or that's the thing this the question supposes that the bear is a comedy yeah no it doesn't necessarily but Daniel asked that question I was trying to think of I was trying to think of something that would be like bear adjacent, but not too dark and high stress.

Mm-hmm. Bear adjacent. Well, not, I mean, it doesn't have to be a restaurant, so it could be like a workplace drama, but doesn't have to be as high stress. But is this someone who doesn't have the time commitment to watch an hour-long show and never has? I don't know.

Maybe Daniel can follow up. I thought maybe we would have something really obvious come to mind. It's very hard, because I think one of the things that makes the bear successful You know what I'm going to say? I'm going to say industry. Oh, we just want people to watch industry. I just want people to watch industry, but it is high stress.

It's very stressful, but it's not in the restaurant business. I want more people to watch it. It has some qualities filmmaking-wise. It's got a great soundtrack. It's got in fantastic performances, very naturalistic performances. So let's just say industry. For me, the bear is the slightly unexpected love child of Mad Men in Parks and Rec. in that it is,

it swings from, from, there's comedy in the drama and drama in the comedy. It is absolutely shamelessly mushy and in love with its characters and in love with love. And also is,

at times, a devastatingly sharp interrogation of where our lives start and where work ends and where work begins and our live stuff and how we mix it all up all the time. And also a function,

and also an interesting ongoing metaphor of just trying to be a creative person in the world. That's a great answer. Thanks. But neither of them are the show, but maybe you should just alternate one than the other. Let's wrap up with Jeff. This show has an incredible soundtrack,

especially if you happen to be a dude in your 40s. What is on your Mount Rushmore of great TV soundtracks? We didn't even talk about Laid by James in the finale. I know. Because you know I'm a James head of longstanding. Here's what I want to say to you, Jeff. is that we're probably in,

we're at peak soundtrack. I think most shows and movies at this point have moved towards music cues and needle drops and away from original scores, right? Certainly to punctuate big crescendo emotional moments. And so it's a different beast now than it was when Andy and I were young coming up and you would get maybe,

I mean, I, so the thing I want to shout out Homicide Life on the Street. Which is coming back, finally. Which is coming back to streaming. And one of the reasons why I think it was having issues getting onto streaming, aside from whatever Byzantine production situation it had, was clearing the music rights. Because this is a show from an era where they maybe didn't necessarily have an

in perpetuity to last forever. Homicide used soundtrack songs sparingly, but to great, great effect. So there is a belly song. on an early episode of homicide that always hit me really hard. Raining in Baltimore by the Counting Crows who were also featured on The Bear.

Playing over Melissa Leo driving back from the Chesapeake Bay. Pretty good stuff. That is just a word poem right there. Other shows that I thought did incredible work with soundtrack, Tremay, which is a very specific

but incredible archive treasure chest of New Orleans music. Friday Night Lights, I always thought Oh my God. And the like kind of more one tree hill like has a couple of songs

per episode zone, but... I mean, the cover of Daniel Johnson's Devil Town? Yeah, that's basically I was thinking of. Come on. I also thought Breyer Patch had really good music.

Hey, that's nice. And stranger things. I work... I really only worked on the music in that show. That's the only thing that I cared about. What did you think?

Those are great choices. I think, speaking of shows that were not streaming for a long time because of the breadth of the music, choices from a different era, Freaks and Geeks. Yeah.

Was off streaming for a while because of, never on streaming until relatively recently because of the music and music is awesome. Our pal Sam's show, Mr. Robot, had a great score by Matt Quayle, but Sam has very, very, very, as this comes as no surprise, very strong opinions about what songs to use and when. And, like, when he did use Where is My Mind, there was a lot of intention behind it, but he also had, like, M83, and then he had some interesting, just very specific choices that he used sparingly to make them hit harder, I thought. It wasn't trying to drown out the show.

You know what else I would throw on there? Remember Quarry? I'm always going to shout out Quarry. That's Jonathan Trapper, right? No, that was Banshee, which I love. Oh, okay. I'm always shouting out Quarry because it was a one-season wonder. I don't even know if it's streaming right now, because it was on Cinemax.

It was a Cinemax original. But Michael Fuller is the co-creator of the show and the showrunner of it, and it's such a brilliant study in Pulp. and like 60s into the 70s and the soundtrack was just full of like of the period soul and R&B records and it's just it's like a tactile

experience to watch and listen to the show and it's an example of not just someone being like, here are the songs I like and there are the songs I was thinking of when I wrote this it's like let me bring you, let me explain the era to you through the music. Yeah, that's a great answer. God, is it, I hope it's streaming. Bring back Quarry.

Thanks to Devin for producing us today. Thanks to everybody for their their questions about the bear. Yeah, that was a good idea by you. We're going to be back on Monday. Game of Thrones. It's not called that. Yeah, but it's generally the franchise, you know?

Yeah, it is. We'll talk about House of the Dragon. Do you want to do like a pre-penguine power pole? Just like where you're at with the characters. Top 10 penguins all the all time? Penguin bag? Yeah, just like, mail bag on Penguin? Top 10 dangling plot threads and Matt Reeves is the Batman.

That's a great idea. Actually, you probably would do numbers for us to do that. Thanks again to Devin. We'll talk to you guys on Monday.