The Watch - Questions Asked and Answered by ‘The Last of Us’ Season Finale. Plus, the Oscar Ceremony.

Episode Date: March 13, 2023

Questions Asked and Answered by ‘The Last of Us’ Season Finale. Plus, the Oscar Ceremony. Chris and Andy talk about this year’s Oscar award show and how the winner of the Best Picture award has become all too predictable in the last couple of years (1:00). Then they talk about the season finale of ‘The Last of Us,’ some of the moral questions it probed (23:08), and the plotlines the show set up for Season 2 (46:59). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio, he's my Janet Yellen, my backstop. It's Andy Greenwald! Do you feel that you're properly insured on this podcast?

I am only up to a certain point, right? And then after that, I'm flying without a net. That's like with me, like I will watch two television shows per week. You are insured up to that number. Pass that. You're just going to have to do solopods. The FD-A-G, you know, you got me for 80 total minutes. How you want to divide that up, you want to do Party Down, Abbott, and another sitcom, however we want to do it.

Unfortunately, all of the Oscars were watched. So that took up all my... No, no other television. No, we're going to be talking about the last of us season finale predominantly today, but we do have some Oscar takes to get off. Andy, do you have a chill weekend? Did you move some money around? So here's the thing. I feel like our listeners need to know this.

I did have a chill weekend, spend time with my family, enjoyed the rain here in Los Angeles, the premiere city in the Pacific Northwest. And the only kind of hiccups from my weekend were just sort of an intermittent but steady stream of text messages from my guy. There was one text. Chris watches industry once,

Ryan. There wasn't just one text. There was a text on... I've seen margin call like a lot. It began on Friday with the text saying, well, what bank do you use? No, I was asking that for completely separate reasons. And I thought you were just like, oh, maybe my guy wants to switch it up and I'm not going to name it.

my banking institution of choice, you know, just out of respect for the listeners. But like... What does that mean? I don't know. I just want to make it sound. Because you have like, it's first national of Macau.

Like what? I do a lot. I spent a lot of time in the Cayman Islands. You know, I maintain a condo there. You get you seen a laundromat? Like Gene Hackman in the firm. So I was like, boy, Chris just wants some consumer advice. And then I later I looked at the newspaper.

And I said, oh, I see a bank has ceased to exist. Yeah. And then throughout the weekend, you were like, How are you feeling? How are you feeling about things? Well, because Saturday it was kind of dicey. Saturday was a touch and go. You know, because it's contagion.

Listen to his voice. Listen, his voice just went up two octaves. This is weird. Some of our listeners might have been at Silicon Valley Bank. Like visiting it? Yeah. They might have been hanging out outside being like no bailouts. I am not trying to make fun of financial peril.

I just said this was a side of you. Yeah, that you didn't know about. Because when the. novel coronavirus is sweeping the globe. Cool as a cucumber. Me? I'm fine about like, I, look, I think I'm diversified. I think I have assets in a lot of different hot zones and I'll be okay.

I was just like, I think I'm because I'm reading East of Eden, you know, and I'm in that Steinbeck zone. I just watch grapes of wrath. Wow. Just like. So depression era is on your mind. And watching Last of Us. I'm just like, you know, I'm just keeping my peepers peeled for all that stuff. The one moment I got nervous this weekend is because.

Sometimes you just have, like, text chains with people who, quote, unquote, know stuff. Uh-huh. And, like, you got some guys who watch the betting markets around election night. Oh, yeah, I do that a lot. Yeah. You're always like, all the sharps are in on a divided house. Yeah, the odds just crashed for Hillary. I think I sent that text.

Yeah, you did. Yeah. That was a great night, too. Right after, like, the suburbs of Miami, like, came in. Yeah, you and Haralabob, right? Well, no, I was basing it off of Heralob. I also didn't bet. I was just like, fuck.

Trump's stuff. president. So you... I accepted that result. You know? Because that's how democracy works. Sure. How are you, so are you feeling okay?

Can we, should we podcast today? Yeah, let's do it. I'm fine. I'm liquid, yeah. I should note that did, Chris did enter the studio with six laundry bags that were jingling. You think I'm going to a coin star? I do. I think you switched to the gold standard.

You also make it sound like I'm Santa Claus. Yeah. You're very merry. Andy, the Oscars were last night. Should we do Oscars first or last of us? What do you? Well, I don't have a ton to say about the Oscars. So, I mean, it's up to you.

I mean, we can do whichever one you want. You want to do Last of Us first? No, you were going to talk Oscars. Let's, let's, we are not the first responders in the case of Last of Us, but we will be the- Sean and Amanda did a great job recapping pretty much everything and also getting into for last of us? No. That's like, we're not first responders for any of this.

No, no. I mean, we're definitely not. But we are, like, like, you know, we come in after after all the money is gone and we say, No, so I thought maybe we could do Oscars just because When it's a sweep like this Which it almost was and certainly with All the major acting categories that everything Everywhere all at once put itself up for

It won right so all the All the you know for actress Supporting Actress Supporting Actor won Best Original Screenplay, Best Director and Best Picture Yep And I'm sure I'm forgetting something that it all I think editing also It won editing It did not win song I think it's the only one that it

I didn't win song or cinematography, which went to Alquiet on the Western Front, which was the other big winner of the night, if there was one. But when it's a sweep, it just becomes a referendum on one movie, really. And so I would describe myself as agnostic of everything everywhere all once. It didn't really, like, I don't think I was as super as entertained as a lot of people were. I definitely was moved at times by it, and I think that it's like a, a pretty, big achievement on the budget that it was made for at the studio it was made for

and it it's like a cool it'll be a cool historical marker for as have like several recent Academy Awards for the direction that the movie industry is going. I liked Top Gun Tar and Banshees more

like those movies like resonated more with me but that doesn't you know I think one of the problems when you have like a sort of of a singular sort of destroyer at the Academy Awards, is it kind of sucks the like anticipation or kind of like the sort of, ooh, like what could happen? You know, like you lose that a little bit. You miss that kind of

November 8th, 2016, Frizzan, right, that made that night memorable for you and your pals on Twitter. That's right. Yeah, purely as a show, it was fine and it was nice and it was a little dull because it was all chalk, right? Like there wasn't a single upset that I'm aware of or that I was paying attention to, which, you know, in terms of, and certainly there were no punches or slaps or envelope mishaps. It was a very well-managed and well-run production. I like it when Jimmy Kimmel hosts. I think he's a good host. In terms of everything everywhere, I think we're in the same boat with it. I didn't really like the movie. But I have really come around on the story of the movie and the triumph of the spirit that fueled the movie, everyone involved seems amazing.

Everyone involved seems so nice. I fucking love Jamie Lee Curtis. I love Michelle Yo. These people are deeply deserving of acclaim. Yeah. Let me just, like we said at the top, I think Tara is a singular cinematic achievement and one of the most important works of art that I've encountered in the last few years, and I love it forever.

It was never going to win. Yeah. So put that aside. Michelle Yo winning is awesome. And more than that, and I have to be honest, like talking to our buddy, Sean Fentasy, about this, both in person and listening to him on the big picture and on Bill's show last week, helped me calm down because the tendency to make everything culture war is unavoidable and inescapable. I didn't love the movie because for reasons other people have, I think, articulated better.

It just didn't speak to me like rhythmically. Like it just felt like very... Montaging. Younger in a lot of ways than I am, which is a tough thing to admit, even though we are not young anymore. So it did not resonate with me on that level. But I think it's really important to note how completely odd and unlikely this is for not just a win, a win here and there, but a total dominant sweep. I mean, this is the sort of movie that best case success story might have been the Daniels winning for screenplay or something. Oh, yeah.

Or a supporting nod. Or maybe Michelle Yeo, the spirit that fueled the whole movie campaign is just ends up being, she's the recipient of it. This movie was not made with anything other than, I think, pretty healthy and good and pure artistic intention. It was not meant to be a wedge in some sort of larger wokeness war or to be a pawn in someone's Twitter argument. They made a movie they wanted to make and people fell in love with it. That's what we want. Better this than so many other things, you know,

and hopefully many good things come in its wake. And I have to say also, I was really impressed with Daniels. Like just being camera ready and prime time ready and like being clever and charming and articulate and warm. There are still. I was going to say this isn't the 70s or 80s or 90s or 2000s or 2010s. In Hollywood, there are still monsters out there or assholes or ego beasts. And these guys seem great.

And the community of engendered seem great. So do I sound like the end of the movie, everything everywhere all at once, where the motto is be nice to each other? Well, if you did, then you would have to keep going on for another 20 minutes now. Great point. Great point. But like, it was nice. Yeah. That was really my takeaway.

And I think beyond that, like, Brendan Fraser winning was sweet. Right. You run the whale back a couple of times? I cannot say that I did. And I wonder about anyone else in Hollywood. But, you know, people, this town loves a redemption story. Sure. Or a comeback.

You didn't need to be redeemed for anything. So did anything else jump out at you from the ceremony? No, I mean, last night I was texting with Juliet Littman, my coworker and a very good friend. and we were like, man, there's not a lot of stars there. Matt Damon's not there. Ben Affleck's not there. Tom Cruise isn't there? Tom Cruise, Tom Hanks. That was odd. Denzel Washington. At least they weren't on camera.

Like, they may have been somewhere, but usually the broadcast has a really good job of beat. Well, he, yeah, quite, I thought quite obviously, even though he had been doing the whole run of PGA stuff and everything. But it does seem like it's sort of like this inflection point where, even if they had been there, I don't know if that's really the show that they're making anymore. I mean, those people make movies

that, like, kind of one and three of them are successful, right? Let's just say generally, right? Like, Tom Hanks, Denzel, Cruz, obviously, all of his movies are successful, but I seriously do think Cruz didn't think he was going to win and probably didn't want to sit through Scientology jokes,

if I had to guess. Yeah. I saw some pretty good points, I think, Melanie made where it's just like, even if you're, like, you're not,

not going to win. If you're Tom Cruise or James Cameron, you should go to applaud the below the line people who do win awards. Yes. I take that point. But it was interesting to watch, oh no,

you know, like no Jennifer Lawrence, no Julia Roberts. Like all these people who you would think of as like sort of major name and lights kind of names. And instead you get like the Questloves and the Jessica Chastain's. And Malala. And Malala and Jenny the donkey.

You know, like it's interesting that it is not, seen as appointment awards, like this is Hollywood's night out anymore and it's more

like do I have something to promote or is my movie nominated? It's very, and also, or are you sort of a four quadrant

celebrity like Questlove which is wonder, I mean, we love him and always have from Philadelphia. Honestly, if Questlove becomes like the kind of like

the mayor of Hollywood, the mayor of Hollywood, like there are way worse things that could happen in the world. A billion percent. It is, I think it's more than anything else that is an interesting snapshot,

if not indictment. of the fractured state of the industry. The Oscars are not Hollywood's biggest night because Hollywood stars don't show up to swan about and be recognized from the stage and joke and press the flesh and pass the torch because that just doesn't exist anymore. It's generationally fractured.

There is no, to your point, like Tom Cruise and Denzel Washington are movie stars and our royalty and are respected. Who's behind them in line? Who's next? Yeah, like Michael B. Jordan, like there is at least like an idea of like... For sure, but that's a pretty wide gulf.

And, you know, it's also a different era where I don't know if any of these people. And also, by the way, they probably have better things to do with their time than Nintendo Awards shows for fun to be on camera. I think it's probably healthy that people don't show up in a human level. But like, if you worked in the movies, wouldn't you be like, yeah, I want to go to the Oscars? Like, yes. And yes, like Jack Nicholson before me, I want to be a character at the Oscars.

Exactly. And I think that's what's interesting is we'd reached a point that I think was understood and recognized where, like, you know, the Bradley Cooper's or Jennifer Lawrence's will be there if they or their movies are nominated. They're not necessarily just going to hang about. But they're not just hanging around Hollywood. And now, yeah, there isn't anyone

who's just going to be hanging around Hollywood. I mean, I think some people go to parties and stuff. But that did feel different. And it also felt a little, here's my one note. You know, sports guy who we work with and work for is a big body language guy. did you feel like so when Kimmel was doing the crowd work

which is an Oscar staple and he's very good at it you know with the cutaways to the people who weren't necessarily expecting to be talked about I mean they all are but well when Jessica Chastain was wearing a mask I didn't think she expected Jimmy Kimmel to not literally crowdwork that's true but in the monologue let's say

and he's like and Judd Hirsch is here and he's like oh me oh yes yes here I am and there's a joke about riding a motorcycle or whatever I felt like everybody that he cut to gave it like 15% too much mustard. Like it was very college acting class, you know, where they were all like doing a bit.

You know, like, oh, Adonis Creed is here, and MBJ is like, ooh, Duke's up, you know what I mean? Like, everybody was really... Yeah, it is kind of like, it was like a very Perry Mason era. Like, like, Glock Gables here. Yes. Oh, I'm twirling my mustache. But everyone I felt like was really like,

maybe it's because still we don't know how to be in public anymore, like something severed and broke over the last three years. the folks in that theater are pretty comfortable being in public. But like, how about Steven Spielberg? Okay, 75 years old. He's really doesn't need to be doing this. Yeah, but Jimmy Kimmel was like, it's funny how your mom sucks.

I think he was just like, all right. They didn't cut to him in that one. Yeah. They cut to him when they were like, when Kimmel was like, you were very high when you made ET 40 plus years ago, right? And then he was just like, no, I'm sober. And they cut to him again, and he was like, I am sober.

It was just weird. It was very serious. You know? Were you in your living room making the everything everywhere all at once bagelhead gesture? Oh, when they, when like when it won all? Yeah, when Jamie Lee won. No. No.

Look, like this is the thing is that there are some years where it's a binary choice between two movies and you can be really like throw yourself into the narrative of, I'm team this or I'm team that. No more so than Lala Land and Moonlight. But like over the years, of course, like there's just been many examples. This year it seemed like because of the precursor awards. Yes, it was... And Sean and Amanda have been really great on this idea that there is now...

It's too long, and these precursor award shows are too well publicized and too available. This is right. So that essentially, by the time you get to the Oscars, if they follow a pattern, then the people who you're seeing accept the Oscar have already accepted awards for the last three months, if not longer. And that... And that... Even some of the big winners, like... Shell, you know, like, had done that speech a couple of times.

She did it at the SAG Awards. Like, they've done... The first time I noticed this was when, I think, McConaughey. McConaughey did the Dallas Spires Club speech at the Gold Globes and then did the same bit, basically. And it was better the first time. Yes. I agree. It's interesting that the Oscars have found themselves in this place where they are not setting

culture. They're capping it. Yeah. And the only way to really solve against that would be to basically move voting up way, way in advance. You know, so that people basically were like, I've, voted for these people. Or remove the show up. I mean, Sean was like they should put it right after the Super Bowl. So that would have been a month? Yeah, a month. Three weeks? Yeah. Yeah, like three weeks ago. For me, I left this multiverse and went into a different one after the Super Bowl, so I couldn't really

tell you about time. I just had two other notes. One, it was a great night to remember that Jamie Lee Curtis is married to Christopher Guest, and I would pay top dollar for his unvarnished opinions about that movie because he is notoriously a miserable crank. despite being a genius. So I thought that was interesting to watch him in that role. I did know if you wanted it. I had two...

There were three takeaways from watching the show with my daughters. One, outrage, the turning red did not win in the animated feature, the only category they cared about. They did like the animated short,

the boy, the horse, the hound, the donkey. I forget what it was called. Three men and a little baby. Beautiful, very nice. Clearly, don't take that with them forever. Men a lot to me. They know the name,

mad at me when I tried this bit out on them last night. Do you try a lot of bits out on your kids? It doesn't go great. As you'll know, by my next observation, the last one, which was they care about the commercials more than anything else. And there was a commercial for Michelle Obama's podcast. And my older daughter said, Michelle Obama has a podcast. And I said, yes.

And she said, I bet it's a lot better than yours. That's going good for you then. Yeah, which is fair. It probably is. Did you care about the studio spawn? Oh, did you just skip past the commercials for the most part? Which ones? Well, like Disney had the trailer in the show.

There was like a tribute to Warner Brothers. Like I was just curious whether or not you were like separation of church and state. The Oscars are a very sacred institution. I think that ship has sailed. Okay. Would you prefer? Yeah. So we've had the slap.

We had the accounting mishap. You know, we had the mix-up. and like say we had this night, which was essentially like a couple of like, oh, that was really nice. Or, huh, this has taken a long time. But for the most part, went off without a hitch

and will only be remembered as the Everything Night, not like a night where any like outstanding piece of, you know, entertainment came out of the actual broadcast. Do you prefer an Oscars that you forget about almost instantaneously afterwards as a program, not necessarily as the winners, but just as like a television experience, or have you now turned yourself into something of a danger freak

when it comes to the Oscars and you miss a little bit of fuckery? This was such a dull and polite award ceremony. I straight up thought like there was like an hour where I was like, this is really boring. Yeah, it was. Yeah. I think that the antidote to that isn't more star-on-star violence so much as it is, let's have some surprise.

Let's, what you just said, and I realize Sean and Amanda, I've been banging this drum for much longer than we have, but it's boring at this point. It's the public, I really appreciate the succinct way you recap that because people didn't used to care about Guild Awards. They were minor. They weren't televised. Maybe they still don't.

Maybe 80% of the people watching the Oscars have no idea who won the SAG Awards. But I do think that there is group think in terms of, like, the more awards that happen before the Academy voting affect the Academy voting. There's no way. I think maybe the academy thought that they would serve as a corrective to the sort of brash decision-making of the weird cabal that makes the Golden Globes. But actually, it's just enhanced the group think. And so I just wanted moments of surprising passion.

There wasn't even Michelle Yew winning, which is a beautiful moment, her speech was wonderful, her emotion was genuine, felt more like, not relief, but like, it was... I got to say her sag speech was like kind of better. not better but like she was like blown away she was swearing she was like couldn't like she was walking around in circles and when she went I was like this is really moving to see her this excited

and I don't know if she was like I'm probably going to win the Oscar by that point but when she got up on stage she was great and she was it was obviously like a lovely moment but I just thought like that's an example of like two weeks ago you had this like amazing incredible burst of like of surprise and joy and then then you get to the Oscars, which everybody's actually watching, and it was like, oh, yeah, she's already done this speech a couple of times. Or she's done, she's had this experience a couple of times. That's why the not too, not two guys had the best speech.

Yeah. I was just singing the Carpenters. Like, that's fun. It's always fun. And I did appreciate that they learned their lesson from last year where they were trying to X out the, you know, the quote unquote, less prestigious awards. But sometimes the best moments come from those awards. I have one last question before we get to last of us.

You still haven't seen banshees, right? I tried to get it in before the Oscars But once I knew it wasn't going to win Did you try to get it in like you started it? No, no, no, I'm not anti this film. I look forward to it. Okay, so you did not get the Jenny of the donkey bit. I heard there's a donkey in the movie.

Yes, yeah. And then there was a donkey on stage at the Oscars. Did you understand that that was a banshees of an asheran thing? If I was faster on my feet this morning, I could have made a joke about someone else being the donkey, but yes, yes, I got it. I get it. Look, Chris.

I don't think that was the same donkey from the movie. I haven't seen cocaine bear, but I understood the jokes about a bear who's ingested a worrying amount of cocaine. Can I just say that the funniest tweets I saw all night were people diagnosing Elizabeth Banks with COVID? A million percent.

There was somebody who tweeted, sorry, I can't remember. It was somebody who was like, everybody in this room to Elizabeth Banks after she gets off stage and it was just a picture of Jessica Chastain wearing a mask. I thought that was good.

When she emerged with the bear, in order to avoid the spectacle or the challenge of explaining both bears and drug-taking bears to my daughters. I was like, look, this woman is the voice of wild style in the Lego movies, and then she

opened her mouth. It was like, hey! And they were like, that's not what she sounds like. Yeah, yeah. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last-minute beach day, a spontaneous

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Let's talk about The Last of Us. Yeah. Let's do it. Yeah. So this was the season finale. I got a little bit of a plot recap here just to refresh your memory. Is it bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. I'm really glad I watched this before the Oscars.

I'm glad that this wasn't like, now that the four-hour broadcast is over, it's time to watch America's most beloved father-daughter duo. Yeah. Yeah. So the finale opened with, well, I guess, you know, I have to look. I can't remember what the actual finale is called. But I like to think of it as how we met Ellie's mother. Jesus. Okay.

We see a pregnant woman get chased by, I mean, we assume some old cordyceps. And she's pregnant. She runs into an abandoned house. She gets followed by a... I'm going to call him zombies. I don't think it's an abandoned house. I think she was intending to go there. It seemed abandoned.

There wasn't a lot of furniture. I think her gang wasn't there. Right. Like they were supposed to be. Because she goes in, she goes, hey. I'll take comments at the end. Hey! She came in with her catchphrase.

Where is everybody? She stabs one of the zombies, and she just drops a baby. And I wonder whether or not we really missed a beat here, OBGYN-wise. You hear about people going through these long intensive labors? I'm just saying, maybe we should frighten more women during labor? This is... By the way, Dr. Chris, Internet OBGYN is the new bit. This is what we're doing.

It's going to go great. All four quadrants are going to love it. Too bad for everybody involved. The mom has been bitten, though. And I was a little bit confused about, like, she gets bitten on the leg, but she cuts the cord. But I assume that the transference in the umbilical cord

is what makes Ellie immune. Gotcha. Okay. Marlene, from the earlier part of the season, Firefly Marlene comes through. My girl. They apparently Hannah, I think it's Hannah, his name of the mom.

You get to Anna. Anna? Okay. Maybe when you're crying out, because you have to mercy kill her. Maybe there's a little extra, like a little phlegm in the throat that makes it sound like Hannah.

Marley didn't, she had a lot of tears about that. She was like, I can't do it. And then she was like, you gotta do it. So she takes the baby, she kills her friend. And we flash forward,

obviously that baby is Ellie. By the way, shout out to Ashley Johnson. Looks a lot like Bella Ramsey. That was very good casting. She played her in the video game. Oh, really? Yeah. Which she played the,

look at you. Did you research? I mean, I read the internet. I don't do that. anymore. I read like two pieces on the internet. So she played Ellie in the video game. She did, yes. So we flashed forward to Joel and Ellie who are nervously

walking towards Salt Lake City after the events of the Silver Lake Resort and the all you can eat. The offense of the All-Star game. Still recovering from John Moran. I think they're worried because there's no defense in Salt Lake City. That's right. Ellie is pretty shaken up and Joel

is all in on being dad of the year. He's got Bogle, some chill stories on the similarities and differences between Elia and his late daughter. He shares a tale about attempting to take his own life. Ellie recounts how she had to kill her best friend Riley. It's really heartwarming stuff. And then Joel is like, we can just leave.

We do not have to go and subject you to whatever the fireflies want from you. And then Ellie is like, well, then what would be the point of doing all of this? Which I think is a pretty good one. Upon arrival in Salt Lake, Joel and Ellie get jumped by fireflies. And Ellie gets prepped for surgery that nobody really warned her about. And Marlene, who has made it across. the country. Some questions about that.

Tells Joel to beat it. Thanks for playing. She's in his debt. These guys are going to walk you out to the highway and give you your backpack. She also informs him that Ellie's medical contribution will involve her. I thought maybe being lobotomized, but it sounds like that would have been fatal because they're just going to straight up remove the brain. Well, just bits.

Bits and pieces of the brain. Well, it didn't sound like she was going to be making it out of that room. Oh, agree. Yeah. Agree. So Joel does not. He doesn't take this well. He thinks that violates the hip.

Procretic oath. Let's just put it that way. So he kills all the flyerflies, including the surgeon who is probably Humanity's last hope. He also kills Marlene. And then he takes Ellie towards Tommy's spot in Wyoming. And he tells Ellie that Raiders came after the hospital. And he barely got her out and everyone else was killed. And she asks him to swear that's the case. And he does. And I'm sure that will be the last of that.

And that is my recap of the finale. Did I miss anything? Produced by Kai McMullen. Thank you. Brought to you by Simply Save. you, well, I mean, but you miss things in the way that the Mona Lisa is just a picture of a lady.

Well, there's a lot of nuance, and that's why I have you here. Thank you. Right. I thought that this was, it's weird to say that this show feels like it got darker when you consider where it started. I think that it's pretty fucking cool.

Take away whether or not it's hewing close to a video, game and you can just read the plot and blah blah blah. I think the Joel character is actually really grown on me. No corticeps. It's really been a pretty interesting to watch Pascal allow that guy to like feel again

in his own way. And his nervous talking through this episode is like, that's good character development. That this is a guy who's allowing himself to feel again, is overworking himself because he feels like he's obviously got a traumatized teenager on his hands. And this

obviously, like, it goes and pays off the first episode in Sarah. You know, with like the, this guy is still grieving. He almost took his own life in the aftermath of his own daughter's death. Now he's got this person in his life that has saved his life, that he has saved her life. That is universally recognized as a five tool player. A natural leader. And I thought that, I think that that's really, that's been really well done. So you want to talk about Joel first?

Yeah, well, I think that that's a great point to make because I think that one of the things that narrative stories, like filmed entertainment often gets wrong about characters who have trauma or blockages or keeping things buried is that when the blockage is removed, it's just happiness and light. Like now they're fixed. Underneath this giant plug of whatever,

how do you plug things? Doing a lot of home improvement research. So when the draino goes down, slowly. It's just a fucking mess underneath. Yeah. He's a mess. And I appreciated that.

I appreciated that in the performance. You know, I think also, and this has come out in a lot of the post-finally interviews that Craig Mason has done as well, like he clearly is very interested in the idea of the messy impossibility of morality. That it's really a construct that we put on ourselves, put on our society, sort of keep things as in line as we possibly can.

Because when you get to, down to something very existential, like the actual person that I love versus an abstract idea of humanity, most of whom I don't know, and many of whom have tried to kill me over the course of the previous eight episodes. Well, that's what I was going to say is that, you know, like, if you're Joel and you've gone through the last nine episodes to say nothing of the last 20 years, is humanity really worth saving? Yeah, I mean, that's the question.

I agree. And I think that playing that and- So you get Kathleen and David, that's cool. Well, also, his behavior here is the same as Kathleen. Yep. You know, and I guess I think it was in the Vulture interview where Mason said that there's an intentional cut to Joel listening to her very intently. To Kathleen. To Kathleen.

As if he's hearing the wrong thing. So I think there will be a spirited debate from people who aren't familiar with, I guess, the last level of the video game, which this was. Right. About the choices made here. Of the first part of the game. Part one. About his behavior. And I just hear to say that, look, as a father of daughters,

this is just classic hashtag girl dad. This is just what you do. Yeah. You know, when the boggle runs out and the pun well runs dry, you just gun down everyone in your path between you and your kid. On the flip side of the same compliment I paid Pascal, I'll pay Bella Ramsey,

who I thought did a really good job of being Ellie, but being Ellie who is like going through it. You know, and she has been sort of relentless in her kind of energy over the course of this season. And even sometimes I was like, would she really be that like puckish after Kansas City? You know, would she really be like that peppy? And to see her kind of affected by what she's witnessed and what she's done in the previous episode is really, I thought was really well done. And I mean, we could get into like what happens at the hospital. Well, I also just want to say that I thought the best moment of the episode was the sort of brief return of her childhood and her joy.

As someone who also loves putting giraffs into television shows, I thought that was a lovely. Is this CGI giraffs? Moment on my show? No, they were. No, I know that. In fact, my wife said, didn't Andy have a giraffe? And I was like, but Andy had real ones. And I didn't think that they were real.

That was my argument. Wow. So what I'm hearing is Breyer Patch is better than Last of Us? That's the takeaway? I can't as a objective journalist.

I can't really weigh in on those kinds of things. You know, I respect that about you. More than anything. Don't want to put your finger on the scales with the banks and all that. I thought that part was very nice.

We could talk about the hospital stuff. The episode was weirdly, not weirdly, it was surprisingly brief. I mean, 43 minutes. Probably less when you. you get past credits and

and all that. And, you know, I thought his massacre was artfully constructed and tastefully done like a lot of other things have been this season. Unquestionably excessive, but considering what it could have been, I did think, and I know we'll get dinged for this, but, you know, as everyone knows, we haven't played the game.

It had, for me, it had largely the charm of a first-person shooter. This was when it became a video game, you know, and that's what he was doing. Isn't it kind of funny to watch, like, the first-person shooter stuff? take place in like a more of a third person view and just be like, huh, you just murdered 12 guys. But like if you're doing it in the game, you're just like, I only murdered 12 people.

Yeah, your kill rate was low. There weren't enough headshots on this run? This whole show, this season of this show particularly has been really interesting for me to try to process because I think to take one step back, this is not a secret. I don't really like dystopian stuff. So I came into this very... Or child in peril stuff. That's true. I came into this very skeptical.

Week after week, I've just been so impressed by the level of care and the level of skill and professionalism. And it's just a very well-made show. And at times, I've really, really liked it. And at worst, I've respected it. I've really been trying to engage with not just... You alluded to this in general. general in terms of something Sam was dinging us for.

Not the version of the show I wish it was because it's a dystopian zombie show page. Yeah, and we're kind of stuck between stations on that because I think we're trying to like be, it's like this is an adaptation of a source that has had checkered history when it comes to making stories out of video games, right? Historically. I mean, our feelings about Mortal Kombat aside.

And I think that there's, we could follow that impulse all the way down to just be like, why isn't there more humor in this? Yes. Why am I talking in the movie phone voice? I appreciate that. So I think what I came down on was thinking about how, to me, my first reaction to this episode was this is really rushed. I haven't fallen in love with Ellie the way Joel has, and I'm the audience. So the sudden, it felt sudden the turn from where they were in episode one or two to this absolute let's play boggle on the farm for the rest of our lives.

Like you are my daughter transference. And I think that. But don't you think it's essentially the payoff of the previous episode or two of the last previous episodes where she's essentially like, I got to take care of this guy? Yes. And I also think that he is not in his right mind, both because of the immense trauma and because of the physical trauma that he went through. And with the HGH, he injected directly into his wound, though that was not penicillin. All of that. The reason I'm bringing this up is because it's worth considering the flip side. If I'm saying this felt rushed, maybe there's more room for story or growth here, let's play that through. I don't want five more episodes.

They, I mean, you read the amazing interviews. They were shooting for 200 days. Like, they don't want five more episodes. They couldn't do it. This is actually a really interesting show for this moment in TV because we have, maybe it begins to represent a swing back to more efficient storytelling. That you don't need to do everything widescreen and, you know, everything is an origin story of an origin story. Now, there was an origin story in this episode, and we'll get to it.

I appreciated the brevity of it, and I think that this was the better version of the show. But I did bump on that. Because for him to behave this way, there had to be a certain amount of buy-in. And I found that to be a little bumpy. I think, and you notice it more on the margins, like, what was Marlene? What are the fireflies? They are convenient red shirts at this point, you know, to be gunned down. by Joel, but it was tough to land the emotional plane of this woman was essentially Ellie's mother,

you know, this woman really was fighting for something bigger than herself, and there was a chance because we don't know. We saw her in one place. Now she's here. She seems, there's a lot of big talk. She seems to be like the Sean Penn of, you know, just like, or like ground up health care infrastructure. She's like just a few, you know, like razor garlic thin, slice shavings, goodfellas prison scene. of Ellie's brain. And we're set up in Dodger Stadium. We'll never know

because Joel fucking killed the doctor. I mean, that really was. That was the one where I was like, maybe just one knee shot, you know, like, aim lower.

And then be like, listen, can you take a look at this gut wound? A child stitched me up. Yeah, so it felt, what was your emotional takeaway from this?

I thought this was an interesting episode. It has me thinking about things about like, how long we need for these stories, our investment. Oh, yeah. What was my takeaway from the sort of climax of the episode? When it finished, were you like, did it put a button on this season for you?

Did you feel like you... I think that I had like a kind of pit in my stomach because, you know, and you know what? Honestly, I'll give it credit for this because even though it's not always my favorite emotion to have, I was like, I've noticed in a lot of IP storytelling, especially, but even stories that don't need to have this conceit, a reluctance to pit quote unquote heroes against one another.

Yes. And I think that it's starting to become kind of a problem where even in the scream movie which I liked big parts of the most recent screen movie so everybody's kind of getting along. And that's not actually how

it's not only what not what Scream used to be like but it was actually part of Scream's charm is that you were always on your toes because you couldn't tell what like any one character won because they seem to not like the other character that they were with. So, like, Sydney and Gail,

sort of these two scream characters, I promise I'll end this. But they're kind of pitted against one another for as much as they're also avoiding getting stabbed to death by a serial killer. The reason why I bring this up is, I think there's been, like, kind of a trend of, in Marvel movies,

in Star Wars movies of, like, we all get along. Everybody's buddies, it's just banter. It's all, like, and, like, everybody's kind of rowing in the same direction against a Thanos or some kind of, of like big bad. So I like the fact that Last of Us gets to the very end and you're just like, oh, this is going to be the downfall of Joel and Ellie's relationship.

Even though I don't know that. Yes, I think that's right. I didn't read forward. But like clearly Ellie senses something is off about that whole thing. She was under, but like maybe has like just an idea of like why did I fall asleep one place and wake up in a car without my clothes on somewhere else? Yeah. And Marlene, who I at least have a sense of who she was.

was to me and known her for most of my life is now not here anymore. And Joel is giving me a very quick story about Raiders and how he blasted his way through everything, which is not untrue. He did blast his way through everything. But I think that it would have been dramatically interesting if that lie had been kind of evaporated quicker. Like I would have been interested to see as the last scene of this season, her being like bullshit.

Or him being like, you know what? It turns out that they were going to kill you. in that surgery, and they didn't give you a choice. They just put you under. And so I made the decision that your life was worth saving. I don't want to sound too bloodless about this, because I think this show has been an exceptional success and a lot of reasons. And first and foremost among them is what you're saying. I think it is doing incredible work moving the window for what we expect, or what we should expect, from these types of entertainments, not just in terms of like the quality of adaptation and the care with which they're being done and not just resting on the laurels

of a successful franchise in a different medium. But in terms of, okay, you're going to end the world, well, that's going to have a long tale of psychological and emotional effects on people. And they are not necessarily going to be heroes anymore. And if you're going to ask people to go through what these people are going through, they may not always get along. And they may not always see things the same way. And there might not be an easy answer or resolution to that. And I really like that. And similarly, I am all for a trend. of let's get in and get out. Obviously not in terms of production, in terms of what's on the screen.

Like, let's keep it moving. Let's bring some sense of cinematic storytelling back to television. We're just because we can fill 10 hours or 15 hours or whatever, we don't have to take it all. We can get there. I think that's all really significant. And yet, I have to be honest. And I mean, people listening to this podcast and maybe last week can tell, I don't feel

particularly emotionally invested in the show, which I'm finding surprising. partly because the curating of this show, even small sample size among friends and family, among people who traditionally don't like this kind of thing, this kind of thing being genre shows, IP shows, violent shows, has really thrown me. People... Isn't that the HBO Halo effect?

You would think, but... I mean, it's like there's... I maybe not exactly, but there are plenty of shows kind of like Marevistown, but Marevistown becomes the thing that people are like, I love that, though. It's like, well, there's like 90 detective shows. I agree.

And in that case, in that argument, I think it's just the quality of the performances or the money spent on it or the accuracy in terms of, you know, Rolling Rock and Yingling being preferred beers of choice of the region. But I think there's something else going on. And I don't feel equipped to really articulate it. I would say it's just fundamentally making it a father-daughter

or a story. But I bump on that. I think that there's, I was thinking about this last night watching the Oscars and thinking about the kinds of movies that get made anymore, you know, and how a lot of these, not Art House, but more awards fodder movies all get bunched up towards the end of the year, come out in quick succession, don't do particularly well at the box office, and then kind of hope and pray that people find out about them largely off the back of the Oscars, I would assume. everything everywhere at once being an exception to the rule because it did quite well at the box office. And came out a year ago. Yeah, and came out almost a year ago to the day. It premiered Sotsfi. TV has now fully become where all the things that you would have expected to see in the movie theaters 30 years ago or now just on, like, The Last of Us is a perfect idea for a movie. It's like a simple story. You can cut out all the, like the backstory parts about it.

you could just have this movie where it ended essentially with maybe some more resolution and I wonder whether or not the reason why people are responding to The Last Office is because if you take something like even though it feels genre and give it a lot of emotional depth

hire all these incredible actors and tell it in a pretty comprehensible straightforward way without a lot of bullshit people are going to respond to it just the same way they did Maryvieve's time the same way they do to Succession, which all of those things things in some shape or form might have been movies 30 years ago.

Yeah, I think I also, I really responding to what you're saying about the relative simplicity or lack of overthinking to it, which is interesting because if you read interviews with Mason, he thinks about everything, you know, and I think that also has an effect in the, when you read the, for me, when I read the interviews and he's talking about the way that he thinks of the show, the stakes, the definition of morality, et cetera, et etc. First, I'm a little bit like, whoa, easy guy, you know. But then I'm like, it has to be that way for it to succeed on this level. He has to be this fully committed and invested, and I'm very impressed by it. Honestly, I guess I'm just struggling in real time with like trying to find my

way into it because there's a difference between admiration and love and passion. Absolutely. You know, and I'm not, it's, it's, I'm just surprised that I'm not fully there. Well, because I think that you typically have the reaction of if I don't like it or love it, it means I don't like it or I don't love it. You have more of like an opposite sort of reaction. Whereas like I, and I think what you're responding to here is I don't love it. Like it's not something I can't wait to spend more time in. But I certainly don't not like it. You know what I mean?

Like it's not like you're having the opposite reaction where you're like, this is stupid or this wasn't well done or this looked cheap or whatever. I think it also comes down to and this is this might be a very, very basic. observation, but like, outside of the Bill and Frank episode, you know, there's, and when they rediscovered the pun book twice in the season, it's not like a warm and fuzzy hang. There aren't characters that I'm excited to see and be with because this is the world. You know, I'm not, again, I'm not arguing that this should be, um, uh, what was the, like, this is the end, you know, with like the Franco and Rogan movie. Like, I'm not saying this is a, it's a bad time. It gives it, but it, you know what? Honestly, it's, it's, it's, but it, you know what, honestly, it, it,

if it had been more fun, and I guess the one exception would be Tommy and Wyoming, seems to have found like a great situation without any weirdness. I think that if you had gone through a season that had more highs and lows in that way, you would have been like, I think you would have viewed Joel's decision a lot differently. I think that's true.

I think that there's an element, again, that you steer into, which is she doesn't, we don't know him. We get that little snippet at the beginning. Ellie certainly doesn't know him. And how well can you really know anyone? And what do you, as you get to know someone or you get to actually not get to know them as you become to rely on them? As you begin to need them, as you begin to love them and these sort of irrational feelings, you start to push away clouds of doubt or uncertainty or question marks. And add the twist of like pretty much like acceptable levels of violence going on.

Do you think the opening, because we didn't really talk about it, made the HBO execs feel like really like confident and calm? because finally here was another show that was saying that the real battlefield is the womb? Were you like, do you think they were like, this is our, this is core home box office brand? Yeah. Yeah.

It's too bad she wasn't being traced by a dragon. Can you do your like Jonas error from the New York Times Hollywood fixer voice? It'd just be like, hey, next time you're going to do a woman in labor, you don't. You don't have to.

I mean, I get it. But there's, you don't have to do it. Okay. You don't have to. I mean, there are shows like this is going to hurt. Like, you have to do it. He works at a maternity award. That's part of the story.

And it's been done well and it's been done poorly. But my thing is, again, all respect to you, Chris. To me? Yeah, but I think that your medical acumen is, let's not second to none, but it's not fourth to none. You know what I mean? But when you have Dr. CR, OBGYN, being like, let's frighten so they drop babies. I just feel like maybe you're losing the plot of what you would, the story you intend to tell.

I'm sure. Yeah. I was just being flip in. Who am I? Are you trying to like indemnify yourself and Spotify? Yeah, this is just a character I play. From, uh, that's right. Like Tucker.

That's right. Did you see, uh, did you see that, that, uh, did you see that Ryan Condal broke his, his silence about House of D season two? When did he do that? Well, I just saw the headline. I saw the headline. I saw that George Martin was like, there will be more dragons. That's the part.

It's like what it was... I just feel like I was listened to in season one. Like, my note was... I just feel like there are five... There aren't enough dragons. I would just like five more. Yeah, but I don't understand. I just think that when they come back,

they need to start wearing football jerseys. So you can be like, there's 84. He's fucking fast. You know, like... Do you mean that, oh, the dragons? I thought you meant like the Targaryians, too. Because it's not fair when Mal is like, oh, do you know this person?

And like, do you know this dragon's favorite book? And I'm like, that dragon... literally looks like the other dragon. Do you remember this? We went through this in a smaller scale 10 years ago whenever it was when she'd be like, well, you know,

Nymeria is still out there. And I was like, are you talking about the dog? And then the face she made? I was like, I can't keep track of the people, let alone the animal. Big win for HBO. I don't think we, there's a lot to belabor there.

Speaking of belaboring. Be curious whether or not when they start to talk about season two. I assume it's in production or I assume it's in pre-production or something. I mean, Craig Mason did sound very tired in the interviews that I read. But I can imagine there's something very specific. It's even if they shot everything around Calgary, Alberta, like, I would imagine the each thing is its own discreet movie essentially. Like the cast is being moved in and out.

So you can't block shoot Nick Offerman throughout the season. You have to, do you have to be like, okay, now we're done? It's a new show every week to a degree that, you know, when Pokerface does it, it's built. to do that, and they build the production around it, and that's part of the selling point. This is why Tilly-Gillars, like, sounds good. You guys, you guys knock that out? What you mean, like, why he doesn't go? For Andor, yeah. To set?

Yeah. Sounds good, knock this out. I think that big picture, though, and we talked to a little bit about this last week, like, it's a huge win for HBO. And it's also, for me, again, we're always going to cape up for kind of, it's not old school, but, because it's just in the last, like, 10 years ago this was a thing. but the way the TV machine can still work, not just in terms of building a success week to week,

which is clearly what happened with the show. It's the penetration into audience perception, awareness, interest, talking about it, giving it a chance because of who made it and who put it on the air. But also, Pedro Pascal was famous, I thought, before this show. He has ascended to a completely different level of celebrity.

He's definitely, like a very famous person. Because of this show. This show did that. You know what I mean? And it's kind of funny in this, when often we come on this pod and we're talking about, we love this, but does it matter? Do anyone see it? It's very hard to quantify things, almost as if you're working in the back of the Silicon Valley Bank. And you're like, does this have value anymore? I can't tell. Let me ask you one last question. Yes. The decision to, I mean, I don't know if it was a decision like when they made this decision, but the decision to put it up against the Oscars, the finale. Yeah. In the past, there have been, I remember throne seasons, they would skip a week of airing for certain holidays. Sometimes like President's Day or something like that, I feel like they would be like,

no Game of Thrones this week be back next week. And they just, the nine episodes, they just kind of rolled them out and went up against the Academy Awards, which made it, I'm sure for some, a complicated night of viewing. Not for Pedro Pascow. Not for Patriot Gas Calli, he was obviously doing great.

Does that say anything about the state of entertainment? Yeah. The flat, like it's all a lot of art now? Well, last of us, it did duck Super Bowl. That's right. But that tells you something too. Well, they went up early, right? It was available, yeah.

Yeah, this is, the Russian is cut. Like, they're not afraid of the Oscars. Yeah. That idea, the idea of the Oscars being some sort of cultural juggernaut where, this goes back to what we said before. it's not Hollywood's biggest night. Nobody's, they're not afraid of it. They're not afraid of it because we really completed the circle.

Not only did we complete the circle, we proved the mistake we made in talking about the Oscars first. Oh yeah. Because the conversation today... But I don't want to talk about him murdering a bunch of people and then be like, so, Kimmel's monologue. Speaking of killing, you know who, I agree with you.

But I... And maybe this would be different if the Oscars, and this will happen again. There will be an Oscars year where there's, you know, it's down to the wire or there's a surprise or an upset and then maybe more people will be talking about it. Had someone slapped someone, that probably would have been the A block in terms of people's water cooler conversations if people still have water cooler's in their work from home setups. But we say in a small room. Just a small room's breathing aerosols on each other.

But straight from the Elizabeth Banks party. The thing about her is she's a hugger. Yeah. Is she? Yeah, when I was at the party last night, like she really pulled me in close and really wanted to tell me about her experience on set

making Sea Bear. Yeah. That's what we call it. But yeah, like this was, this became a juggernaut and it didn't necessarily, it's weird. I feel like I'm self-editing

because I'm really impressed by it. I'm looking forward to the second season, but I thought it was kind of an odd finale and it made me think about the journey. I think it was a finale that was like we have more story to tell. we actually know where this is going. We've only just begun.

A confident finale, you're saying. Some season finale are, this is everything that was on the whiteboard. We'll have to figure out how we're going to write our way out of this. Barry's and... I love the season finale of Barry. By the way, spoiler for Barry season three, everyone. Do you get to 59 minutes?

I think you should beep that. I thought you already... The trailer came out. It's in the trailer. Kai, can you beep the trailer? Yes. Like on all internet platforms? I will add the trailer into this podcast and then I will beep it after that.

Just to add the runtime. You know, there are some finalies where you're like, God damn, I don't really know where the show goes from here. And then this is like, I definitely know where the show goes from here. Back to Tommy's. Yeah, but she doesn't believe him. Right. She doesn't believe him. And he's going to have to tell her the truth.

Or when they're like, where's Marlene? Or how come nobody read? Or like, he definitely. And there's obviously going to be a survivor. He was like, well, the nurses. Oh, yeah, that's right. What is he thinking? I think he was like, I don't know what he was thinking.

I think Craig Mason was like, this feels successive. Like one too many. But like if that doctor was like the doctor who could help everybody, you don't just like wing that guy? Kathleen killed a doctor too, just for being a snitch. But she fucking hates doctors. Like obviously we're in a point where this one surgeon. is like, I think if I get some cool brain on my plate, I can fix this whole problem.

My thing is, look, there's a, the pundit Tom Nichols says that book, The Death of Expertise, you know, and he wrote that before the mushrooms ate everyone. I just feel like if there was anybody who attended University of Phoenix Medical School, you just don't shoot them. Oh, so you're thinking that, yeah, right. What I'm saying is, like, it just seems like there's, you should, you should maybe, just maybe pause for a second. Take the kid.

Yeah. What was the doctor going to do? Scalpel you? I'm not. Yeah. right? Look, we have notes. I just would have told L.A.

the striped truth. They were going to take your brain. You would be dead. So I had to save you. Is this a referendum on... You would do the same for me? Is this a referendum on Joel's lying because he definitely did the thing

where his voice got higher? Yeah, I know. He was like, obviously, he's like, yeah, Raiders were here, and it was sick, but I got you out. And now we're going to Tommy's a place I definitely love hanging out.

Yeah. He did have a lot of time. Because she was on that. that propofall. Oh, yeah. He had some time. To come up with like a... Well, the thing with lying

is you don't want to make it too elaborate because then you can poke holes in it. Whoa, listen, you were quick with that. No, it's like that happens, right? Like people are, all lies have a little bit of truth in it. You start from a place of truth. You want to minimize the untruthings you sit. Yeah, but now you introduce these Raiders.

It's like, we hear a lot about Raiders. And we see a lot of them too. We don't. Everywhere they went, someone came and tried to kill them. Yeah, but the Raiders that got burned alive in Frankenbills, That's one group of Raiders. Then the Raiders who went after them outside of Colorado State, but those were just David's dudes, right?

Yeah, those are just... They're not Raiders, they're cult followers. Oh, so for you, it's just semantics. Yeah, but I just like, we keep hearing about these Raiders. I'm like, what if it's a myth? I think Raiders is just like, it's like clickers. It's just like a word they use for NPCs with crowbars and guns. I think that their ideology is a little bit more, you know,

just defined. Charged? Yeah. So you think season two is going to be her being like, how tall were these raiders? Yes. Were they actually the Las Vegas Raiders who had hold up? Had they selected a quarterback yet? Or were they putting it all on Stidom?

What? No, this is 2003. Like Gannon was still the quarterback. Well, they weren't in Las Vegas either, were they? They were Oakland. Yeah. We're really rambling. I think we did a good job the last 10 minutes, but I do think we lost.

I don't think anyone should be afraid of the Las Vegas Raiders offense. That's my final statement on Last of Us Season 1. Thanks to Kaya McMullen. Always a fun way to see her is Monday morning when she's driven through the darkness. Kai, do you want to weigh in on either of these topics on Oscars or Last of Us? Did we do it? No, I think you guys covered it. Kai has a tea time or tea time.

We will talk to you on Thursday. Yeah. I'm trying to remember what's going on in the world. Well, we have three more Daisy Jones that we should, we could talk about. God, there's Mando will be back. There's P. Mace. Oh, yeah. Oh, can I just say if anyone's made it

to the end of this podcast? I'm beginning to get the sense that there are people, I want to create straw listeners, but there are some people who just hit fast forward or stop when we get to the interview portions of the watch podcast

because they just love this. Can I just say, whether you like Perry Mason or not, please listen to Matthew Reese. Oh, because Matthew Reese was on the CR and Andy wavelength, banswise. It was so fun.

Would you agree with that, Kaya? Do you have an opinion? Yeah, that was delightful. He is a lot of fun. He is so charming. Yeah. And it can go... Honestly, don't think we talked about Perry Mason that much.

No, certainly didn't really spoil anything. He's just a delightful person. He talked about boats. He didn't try. But he came in... This was a big win for CR. Because before, you were just like, I'm just... You were very Rick Rubin.

You were like, I'm going to trust the process here. I've got two questions, but I just feel like it's going to be a good hang. And that could have gone sideways. That was the first in-person celebrity interview that I've done since 20. Well, I think Casey Blois is... Oh, and Sam. That's right. By bad. But you know, like, in front of camera. Kind of guy. Yeah.

It was great. I hope people listened to it. I enjoyed it. Thanks to Kaya. Thanks to our listeners. Thank you to the Academy. And thank you to... And the Davis family for their stewardship of the Raiders. Right? Oh, yeah. That's right. Good joke. Thanks. I mean, B-minus. See you Thursday.