The Watch - Quibi Is Interesting Even If the Shows Aren’t Yet. Plus: The Greatness of ‘ZeroZeroZero’ With Andrea Riseborough | The Watch

Episode Date: April 7, 2020

Quibi, the streaming service that features shows that are just seven to nine minutes long, launched today. The “quick bites” represent a new format besides traditional TV (1:26). The latest episode of ‘Devs’ did more telling than showing (27:50). ‘ZeroZeroZero’ is a feat in tv making (41:27) and Andrea Riseborough joins the show to give us some insight into how the show is made (1:08:56). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Andrea Riseborough Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. I just wanted to make sure you were listening to podcasts on Spotify. Here's how you do it. First, search for your favorite podcast on Spotify's app. They have a library of over 750,000 pods at this point. So let's say you're searching for the rewatchables or the Dave Chang show or the Ring or NBA show. Once you find them, click on the follow button. That's how you subscribe.

Then click on those letters near the top of the ad. That's a podcast. All the pods you're following will pop up separated by episodes, downloads, and shows. Way to get better. In Spotify, you can adjust the speed of the pods to seven different speeds. 0.5 times is the slowest. I actually sound drunk at 0.5. You can do 0.8 times, 1.2 times, which is my favorite.

Everyone sounds like they just had a good cup of coffee. And then there's 1.5 times, 2 times. And if you're completely insane, three times. Anyway, Spotify's app connects directly to many of the best automobiles in the world. It even has a car play feature. That's pretty cool. Best of all, it's free. Download Spotify on any device, and you're good to go.

Should you be embarrassed that you're not listening to podcasts on Spotify? Well, I don't want to app sham you, but the answer, unfortunately, is yes. Make the move. Listen to podcasts on Spotify. Back to yours. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch.

My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me on the other line, my Vampiro, from another mother. It's Andy Greenwald. Happy Monday. Hey, man. How's everybody doing?

We did it. We got there. We got to Monday. Did we? Okay. It's Greenwald. It's Ryan. It's Kaya McMullen's birthday.

Can we all applaud that for a second? Happy birthday, Kaya. I wish I had a soundboard so I could set off a bunch of air horns for Kaya. I wanted to thank Kaya for spending her birthday. She, you know, with us, but then I realized that legally she had.

no choice. She has no choice. I mean, not just because, you know, it's her job, but literally she, she has to be here. It's Kai's birthday. It's Monday. Andy and I are here. We're going to talk a little bit about devs, maybe a little bit about the launch of Quibi. A lot about 0-0-0, which Andy finished and which he teased on Twitter as the subject of today's pod. And then the second half of the show is my interview with one of the stars of zero zero zero zero, the great Andrea Rysborough who plays Emma Linwood on zero zero and is absolutely dynamite on that show. So I'm so excited about today's show. I'm glad that you said we would spend a little amount of time on Quibi. Only seven minutes. That is that's it. I mean, that's the that's the whole gestalt.

You know what I mean? I feel like, you know, Chris, I know all of us out here in Tinsletown are in our homes, flattening the curve together. But boy, the nine seconds I was outside today, I could feel the energy in this town because of the launch of Quibi. You know?

I mean, just right now, all over Hollywood, in seven-minute cell phone increments, people are just feasting on content. Obviously, this is a story that we would have covered anyway or at least would have chatted about this. And we've brought up Quibi before, but for anybody who doesn't know,

Quibi is the mobile video streaming service launched by Jeffrey Katzenberg and Meg Whitman. It's been talked about for a really long time. The whole idea is short form video to be watched on your phone, both scripted and non-scripted and news content. That's about, I think, less than 10 minutes is the rule of thumb, less than eight minutes maybe. And they launched with a full suite of products, like with like the full push of, I think 50 shows on launch.

And it's there. It's there for people. But obviously a lot of people have talked about this. But this was imagined for a world where people needed something to kill time online at the supermarket or watch for five minutes in their car before they went in to go pick up something at the drugstore. I'm going to jump in there for Joe popcorn out on the street. And let me just say the one thing. that Jeffrey Katzenberg can go to the bank on is that people are waiting in line at the supermarket.

I mean, again, I want to be very clear, like, if that is the greatest hardship that you or your family is facing at this moment, then, as I would say about mine, then we're all extremely fortunate. But that said, that Trader Joe's line, six feet apart, homie. That is no joke.

I could use a couple quick bites of content for that. But the larger point is absolutely dead on. It was for commuter culture. Yeah. It was for, I'm watching on the subway. I'm watching in my commute. I'm watching with 10 minutes. It seems like a really great idea for lunchroom.

Like if you still have a break room at your office or if you did and you would just kind of be killing time in the break room during a coffee break or your lunch break or whatever, can't really get into an episode of 0-0. It kind of takes you out of the zone. but I think that they really were building this for watching things in between spaces. Because you know, Chris, if you were by the water cooler, just trying to just power, power through an episode of zero zero zero. You know Ted from HR would just tap you on the shoulder and be like,

Hey, that guy, is he drinking pig's blood? Did somebody just get hit in the chest with a sledgehammer? That seems excessive. Yeah, this is not that. This is not that. Right. So I've watched a little bit of, this. I checked out a couple of the shows. I specifically tuned in for flipped because I enjoy the work

of Caitlin Olson a lot and wanted to see what was going on there. I think we could probably at some point have a more in-depth conversation about specific shows. But I guess I'm curious as to whether or not you feel like you have any use for this in your life regardless of the context of your life. Like had this been six weeks ago or two months ago, do you think that this is something where you were interested in the experiment? Definitely interested in the experiment. I mean, I think we had a pretty robust conversation about this at some point in the last few months. And I'm very curious about that kind of bespoke content that is attempting specifically to not just fill a hole in your day, if such a thing exists for some people, but more specifically, the hole in the screen, like fit the shape of the screen, fit the shape of the delivery device. in a very intentional way. And I think even in that conversation, I was relating it to some of the experiences

I've had in post-production recently where we're making content, those of us who are making television, at the highest possible level, without any control of, by highest possible level, I didn't mean to sound vain. I mean in terms of the technical specs,

but without any control over the device or how it's going to be received. Sure. Even in the mixed stage where we mixed every episode of Briar Patch, when we finish the finale, the guys were like, next time, let's do it in Atmos. Because they have the speaker set up there to mix an episode for the highest level stereo speakers,

not even stereo, sorry, atmos speakers that Dolby made that go through the roof and the ceiling of a movie theater. So it feels like it's coming from behind you and above you and all that. And, you know, people could do that. As a Home Reno project, I might just do that at my house. Just personally home wire my personal speakers. Just hang.

every sonos that we've ever received on the ceiling. My dad, like, uh, rest in peace to my father, who, uh, passed away a long time ago,

but, uh, spent most of his adult life that I was around for, trying to perfectly equalize this speaker system in our home living room. He had like, all this Swedish equipment for like, leveling it out so that he could hear this like one Beethoven symphony completely perfectly.

And then like, I turned eight and I was like, I'm not leaving the living room. So I'm going to watch, I'm watching Seinfeld while you're trying to do this. Oh, man. I was really putting in the ass. Did you ever play the Seinfeld bass slaps through his perfectly calibrated? No, I still don't know how to turn it on. It's still sitting there.

Anyway, you were saying. That's beautiful. No, just that it feels like technology and effort that isn't fitting the moment. And so I kind of appreciate that the thing about Quibi is it's being made, specifically for one screen and one kind of viewer engagement and one kind of viewer experience. So one size for all, basically. I believe that's how socks work. I kind of talk myself into this metaphor. But as opposed to, you know, even, again, for Briar Patch, we made a seamless version for one day when it's streaming with no ad breaks, and we made an act break version for when it's on

USA, and we did the sound mix, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're doing all these different versions, and you still, it's going to be on someone's going to watch it on their phone, someone's going to watch it on their iPad. Someone's going to watch it on their parents' TV with their perfectly calibrated Swedish system and maybe appreciate all the nuances we hidden there. I don't know. This feels more economical and thus is kind of interesting to me. Also, purely creatively, I think it's a cool challenge. I do. And I think that's probably one of the reasons why so many interesting and surprising people signed up to be in the first wave of it. Because instead of being told as a writer, like, dream big, do anything you want and then

have your vision, you know, winnowed, winnowed, winnowed down due to technical or production or financial reasons, they're like, just fit it in this box, man. This is your challenge. It's like the 24-hour play festivals they used to have on college campuses. Well, by used to, I mean, when people went to college campuses. Yeah, I would say that not only do I think that the circumstances were there, the context was there for Quibi to be a successful thing because of how we watch TV in different ways on our phones in these in-between spaces. I actually think also like collectively our brains are getting around the idea of like shows can be something other than 30 minutes or 60 minutes and that shows can be lots of different things. If anything that we've been talking about,

the last three years stands out to me, it's the rise of that 30-minute dromedy, that the rise of that reconfiguring our minds around the idea that something emotionally resonant can happen in the course of 28 minutes or 32 minutes or whatever, whether we're talking about flea- or Atlanta or anything like that. So I actually went into this when I watched Flip, which is the show with Caitlin Olson and Will Forte, it actually like kind of works.

You know, it's basically three or four jokes and then the episode, so it's over structurally. It's just like the first three episodes that I watched of the show are essentially just the first three acts of a pilot for a sitcom. Right. You know, it's not like they're completely revolutionizing the form.

I want to check out the fugitive remake that they're doing. I kind of want to see the most dangerous dame with my board. With Breyer Patches, Brian Garrity. But the other thing that you speak to, I think, is really worth noting. And maybe it'll be worth tracking as they continue to develop content or as something begin to sort of break free from the pack. Projects that were designed specifically designed, designed and written and create

and produced specifically for Quibi. And those that were basically origami folded to fit into this box. One of those, and one that I'm also interested in really in checking out, is called When the Street Lights Go on, which is, was executive produced by, again, the Briar Patch executive producer, Chad Hamilton, who's Sam's producing partner. And that was something that was initially filmed, I believe, as a pilot for Hulu, and then refigured for Quibi.

And so I'm kind of excited to see, how did that change it? What did that make it? And do you feel the seams of what it used to be? Or is it, you know, is it a different experience to watch something broken up in the way that this is going to be broken up? There is a weird vibe when, like, I look at the lineup of shows, though, that feels very 2006 Fox. Like, 2006 Fox channel.

Like, I keep waiting for there to be, like, a Kevin Bacon show about an invisible medical examiner or something. Are you writing this down? But you know what I mean? Like, when you would watch it out, save that for ourselves. When you would be watching like 24 or something or American Idol and then there would just be these ads for shows and you were just like, she's a sentinel cyborg killer who also wears tube tops, you know?

The other thing that I would say, though, that makes this a little bit different from where we've been before is that we are coming up, this is the third of these streaming services and the launches of them, of which were, you know, nearing the end, I think, of the major players entering into this world.

And Jeffrey Katzenberg might argue that Quibi isn't intentionally going up against Netflix because it's a different thing, but let's, for the sake of this argument, say that it's all part of these new launches. The last three, if you count Quibi, Apple TV Plus and Disney Plus, not giving up the joke, sorry. Never give up the joke.

They are similar in that all three launched without any really established, I mean, Disney Plus launched with an established library. I don't want to say that that's not the case. That's what it did launch with. But of established library of TV shows that appeal to the general public of TV viewers as opposed to children, whom I like and respect and live with. And who's demo you are a big proponent of? Big proponent of.

Family viewing of Onward yesterday. Really ready to report back on that. If we run a little thin on stuff near the end of the show. Once we finish zero zero, zero, we can talk about it. We can pivot. Yeah. Of the three, Quibi came hardest with like, look, we have to show you stuff. We're going to show you new stuff.

You know, they have the most content at launch, which is a choice. And definitely a choice that also can be made when you have a, you know, deep, deep pockets, which is what Katzenberg and Whitman put together for it. We're starting to see, and there have been a couple things written recently on the margins of the trade publications, questioning the success, or at least the current success of Apple TV Plus and Disney Plus, primarily because they don't have new stuff to watch, right? Now, I think the Frozen 2 and Onward thing, you know, dumping them onto Disney Blues when they did. It was really smart. Obviously got me watching it. But other than the Mandalorian, there hasn't been

something sexy or spicy on that platform. And we don't really know the, you know, Marvel did a big update on how they were moving around their movie releases. I don't know what the state of Falcon and Winter Soldier, Wanda Vision, etc. Where those Marvel shows are landing now. Yeah. And Apple TV Plus just continues to feel like the weird, the world's most expensive Vanity Project. It feels more like a network than anything. It feels more like an old school NBC, ABC, CBS network where they're really only adding one show at a time, it seems like, and that those shows are just kind of like almost existing

in this weird bubble. Some of which, like with Mythic Quest, which I liked quite a bit, but kind of came and went a little bit, at least in my interpretation of its impact and was available for binge. And then morning show, which I think probably got a lot of eyeballs due to the Apple Watch and the star power that was attached to it. But, you know, amazing stories is, is the first one out yet? I don't even know. I'm trying to think of like... Little America got a little attention, the Night Shy Milan show. But I like the servant. Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't feel as inevitable. The other thing that I want to say back Quibi before we move on was I don't know if anyone else is feeling this way. This is just sort of my report. back from quarantine, from the quarantine on Dattington Island, which is that my relationship with, I mean, I think everyone's relationship with their phone is problematic at this moment.

It's pretty intense. Yeah. People, a lot of screen time, but also, I am thinking about it when I'm not looking at it to a degree that I didn't used to because it is a, you know, it takes willpower not to go down into a sinkhole of concern and everything else that's going along with, you know, engaging in the outside world right now. Because of that, watching something like a movie on my television set or watching a prestige mini-series on Netflix like I chose to do with my wife this weekend and we'll talk about that in a minute. It was unorthodox. feels as transporting as reading a book did just a few weeks or months ago. Yes. Partly that's because I'm not currently sitting in front of a screen for my job at the moment.

I'm not, you know, whether I was editing or writing. But the phone now seems like the conduit to trouble, whereas the bigger screen doesn't feel like a screen anymore. It feels more like an escape. And because of that, I don't want to spend extra time, even if it's why. watching the wonderful Brian Garrity, along with Boyd-Holbrook in The Fugitive, that feels connected to the trouble spot because it's just a swipe away to learn more about anti-malarial drugs and how they're being hawked from the White House. So when you're watching TV, like when you're

watching unorthodox or zero-zero-zero-zero or whatever, are you doing it no phones in the other room? What are you doing? I trying to. I'm trying to. The other thing is I find, and this is, this feels like a small nuance that I don't know if we've talked about much, because we've definitely talked about second screening it. There's a difference between watching a show solo and watching it with one's spouse, partner, roommate, or whatever. Oh, yeah. At least in my experience, or maybe in our age demographic, I don't look at my phone at all

if I'm watching a show with my wife. Now, partly it's because she loathes cell phones and would get very cross with me if I had it out. But also because for whatever it's worth, I think it is an attempt, hopefully a good faith attempt, to spend time together, even if we're engaging in something external. Sure. There's a third party involved, but that third party is just the one screen, not three screens that you're both looking at your phone and also watching a TV screen and not interacting. So I would say that in our experience recently, whether it was choosing to watch unorthodox and treating it like an event that we were enjoying or taking advantage of some of the great art house films that everyone knows I missed when they were in the theater last year and how they are now beginning to mic-

It feels like they're migrating to the streaming services a little more directly. That's partly, I think, because neon that put out parasite and put out a portrait of a lady on fire, for example, and has a relationship with Hulu and putting those movies on Hulu. And never rarely, sometimes always was made available this weekend. Right. So it felt it took away the thing that has been a problem, which I've talked about at length, which is that let's sit down and debate what we're going to watch because we don't, we remember nine things, but not the one thing that we want. Sure. We've sat down with purpose.

But yeah, it has felt more like, and maybe the answer is staring me right in the face. Maybe the answer is because we can't go out and do something. So you have to make more, you have to eventize, as Jeff Zucker used to say at NBC, a night on the couch. It's really strange. I've been noticing how time passes differently depending on what you're doing. So sometimes I'll be reading a book and I'll be like, oh, I just got lost in the, you know, the Robert Louis Stevenson-esque transporting world of fiction. And then I'll look at my phone and 10 minutes will have fast. It's just like, it's just not moving fast when you're reading a book. But I do find that.

Can I make a suggestion? Have you ever played my little ponies with a three-year-old? No. But I did crack the PS4 this weekend. God, I'm so jealous of you. You can't look at your phone when you're playing video games because you're using your hands. It's really fun. That's great.

Yeah. I'm so happy for you. I was just saying that, like, I think that the two things that I've noticed that have really been, like, great time eaters have been the hour-long drama. Like, I was savoring Ozark this last weekend. because I was just like, I have something to look forward to. This season is the best season that they've done. We're going to be doing more Ozark stuff later in the week.

And I look at it and I'm like, I know that I can just chunk, eat some time in chunks with these hour-long shows. And the only other thing that really vaporizes time for me right now is my phone. It is looking at 35 different things online at once and Twitter and kind of just like, nosing around in there and then looking at YouTube for a few minutes and then going back to Twitter

and then going back to Instagram. And as much as it makes me feel completely crazy, that's the thing that I feel like almost feels like a more natural use of my brain, which is terrible. Yeah. But then does that mean just to bring it full circle? And obviously we're just talking it's conjecture because we haven't actually attempted to do this. But does seven to ten minutes of a show on the device that you're using to just basically give your brain a little like cat paw flicks of dopamine, does that feel long at this moment? Do you feel like you could look at your phone for 10 minutes just for one story? It's interesting that you phrase it that way, because when I was watching that show flipped, I was like, I actually think I would be a little bit, not frustrated.

It's, it's funny. It has like a kind of a Kimmy Schmidt vibe to it. It's profane. Caitlin Olson's great. Will Forte is great. I've enjoyed the stuff that I've watched on it. But it's hard to imagine being like, it's flipped night, time to watch a 25 minute episode of flipped. I only would watch this in bunches. And if it's going to be either four episodes of a half hour bunch or four episodes of seven minutes at a time and they each get to have three or four jokes and get them off and then make fun of HGTV, that it's okay. But I don't think I will ever be the kind of person who's like crunching video while standing around in the aisle of a supermarket. though. Yeah, I don't think so either. So I think it's worth saying, and we can apply this as we go

forward. I agree because I don't think that I am the content consumer that is targeted for this. That said, I am very, very, very much in the market for some time, for some length agnostic programming. I think, you know, you were saying, I think the best example of it exactly is the one that you made about how the 30-minute form has felt more malleable and more emotionally exciting and satisfying in a lot of ways over the last few years. You know, end of the fucking world, we still talk about it a lot. And one of the reasons I think it had such an impact was because, yeah, episodes could be 16 minutes.

And but to deliver that and to deliver what it did in that time felt fresh and exciting. And it also spackled over a different kind of hole in your life, or at least your life on the couch. Yeah. So I think my thing is like, I think it's really easy to be cynical about this. and about Quibi. And I certainly didn't, not a lot of the content jumps out at me.

I have not gotten to go through a lot of it, but there's plenty of it that just doesn't appeal to me at all. But that being said, I'm not really, like you, I'm not really willing to write off the format yet. Yes, I don't want, I guess what I want to say is, I don't want Twitter, the streaming service. I don't want it to feel like that. So we'll see how it to be.

develops. Which of the many programs we've watched should be the beneficiary of this segue from short content to longer content? Great question. Should we do devs? We should talk devs a little bit because perhaps unfairly devs this week, I was definitely considering a second, third, or even fourth screen. I struggled with it. Yeah. Is it because of the intensity of how intellectually demanding it was in terms of its dialogue and essentially it was a series of two-person, two-handers? I think that we've said repeatedly that this is essentially a two-track show. There is a high-minded, aesthetically driven, hyper-styled head trip that we are here for and that we enjoy.

And it's the same sensibility that made annihilation, Alex Garland's previous film, something that was really worth your time and worth the discussion, even though I think it kind of didn't work as a movie. And I also, as people who have listened to this podcast know, we really liked Jeff Vandermear's book and we had him on the podcast. And it didn't quite do that. But it did something. And it did something with real style and real intention. And so we really admired that. So that's one track. and I think the show succeeds on that track.

The other track is the character-driven shoe-leathery, who done it. And for me, this episode, which was very much a binary episode, right? It was two-handers. It was just two people talking. Yeah, it was the Jamie and Forrest on the outside of the house and then Katie and Lily on the inside. And again, from a purely creative standpoint,

I admire that Alex Garland went right at that, the squishy part in between those two tracks and made an episode that was specifically about that. The problem is, I think, the second half of the show let down the first half in such a major way in this episode that I found it a tough hang for an hour. And one of the main reasons for it, and I take no pleasure in saying this,

is that Nick Offerman and Allison Pill are operating on one level, and unfortunately, Lily and Jamie on a character level, and I'm sorry to say, on a performance level, I think, are not quite up to that. And so because of that was laid so bare in this episode, and what half the people were saying was so interesting, what the other half was saying felt very banal. I was started to disengage in a way that I didn't like. And then came the real sticking point for me, which is at the end of these two conversations that we watched. You also hate Frisbee. That probably was awesome.

I have always hated Frisbee when it is untethered from its natural. companion golf. You know what I mean? Like, don't, don't do that. Don't give me a peanut butter sandwich and forget the jelly. At the end of the episode, the two more interesting characters to me, Katie and Forrest, are snuggling up, as they do. Classic Lovebirds, been shipping them since episode one.

And they're like, the thing about Lily is she's so interesting. She's so smart. Right. She's so brave and compelling. And I'm like, you're telling me this. lot show. Yes. You can keep yelling it to me, but I'm not sure I'm buying.

And that's where it left me. Jamie and Lily, I was trying to think of why I found the most interesting scene that Jamie has done this season to be the one that he did with Kenton in the bathtub. Partially it's because obviously he's showing a different emotion than the one that we've seen a lot of this season. But I think that while I agree with you that the performances were perhaps not up to the caliber of Allison Pill and Nick Offerman's. I just don't think that those characters are being served as well by the material as I

would like them to be. Totally. Just because they're in the dark doesn't mean that the characters that they're playing have to be obscured. And I know that they've tried to give Lily a little bit of backstory. And for all I know, we're going to find out in a week or two a lot of stuff about these characters that will explain some of the blankness of the performances. And I'm sure that this is a choice that Garland made, where he wanted to be.

certain kinds of acting and he wants certain kinds of performances to fit against other performances. Yes. But there's something about those characters that just feel out of sync with the world that Garland's created and also with the performers and the characters that they're acting against. And you're exactly right. To spend the last five or six minutes talking about Lily's bravery, talking about Lily's intelligence, her instincts, all this stuff. it's just kind of like you, that's just, that's, that's telling and not showing. You know what I mean? And I think if you're going to ask somebody to sit across the table from Allison Pill and all of her dialogue is going to be like, what? What? What? What do you mean? How do you mean that? You can't then turn around and be like, this person's really sharp. I'm really liking what I'm getting from this person. It's just a strange bit of writing. I agree. And I think that you also made a very smart point that's worth saying, which is this is not necessarily an indictment of the performer. because I think that there's no question

that Alex Scarlin directs actors in a very specific way. He wants a very certain affect from them. And it is true and present in Nick Offerman and Allison Pill's performance as well. You mentioned the scene that the Jamie scene in the bathtub, and what he was giving us in that scene

was very kind of primal fear. Yes. And emotion. And I think that that's something that Sunaya Mizuno has given us in other Alex Garland films, right? She's a physical performer. She's a dancer. And I think he likes deploying these people like instruments, you know, or even like action figures. He's positioning them in certain ways.

I think Kubricky asked the same thing from certain performers. It's Kubricky. That's the thing I was going for. I think it's clearly influenced by Kubrick in a lot of ways. but in terms of what he wants actors to do is very blunt and it's very external, right?

I think that... They are just playing small melodic lines in what is a larger symphony that is being very much conducted by a person, in this case, Garland. I texted this to you,

not that anybody gives a shit about that, but I do wonder what it would have been like if Pill and Mizuno had flipped roles. Because pill brings a kind of nervey energy to her part that I think would have helped Lily.

I think having a little bit more rawness on the surface for Lily would have been really interesting. And I think part of Katie, if you want to play it reserved and you want to have a kind of flat effect, I think that works fine for Katie because Katie knows the future. Katie and Forrest are these characters

that are almost plagued by their own certainty of what's to come and the role that they have in it. Lily is supposed to be kind of grappling with all of this and grappling with the death of her partner. And I just am not getting, you're just not getting that kind of like emotional reaction. It's not that there has to be, I'm not prescribing one specific reaction

that Mazino should be having, but I actually think that in some ways the two characters are playing the wrong characters. I think it's really interesting. I will say that even in the midst of some problematic for me, storytelling, there are just certain things that are so in Garland's wheelhouse and that he's articulating so interestingly and so well. And in some cases quite subtly, you know, I texted this to you

because I wanted to make sure people know that I text you back, that it's not just going into a black hole or that it's, you know, I have your number muted, which is the sort of weird modesty. of the tech millionaires of this show. And it's not just Forrest living in the same house where his family lived because we've sort of established emotionally why he's arrested in that place.

But we also, from the very first time we saw him when he was just with his hand, shoveling greens into his mouth, he is not someone who cares about frippery or literally anything of this world. So when we saw Stewart walk home, where he's also friendly to a homeless fellow who lives outside of his home,

except his home is a winter And his drink of choice is Miller Light. We've already established that these guys are, you know, God-level tech geniuses and programmers and that are being, they're being paid untold millions of dollars for their work. And it's just a nice little reminder that it's an abstraction, right? When everything is possible to you, what drives you? And something still drives you, and something still makes you happy,

and something still makes you unhappy. And whether they're advanced or they're just completely, on the spectrum with it. Clearly, having a fancy home isn't the thing that's going to fill the hole inside of them. Yeah, and I think also it's supposed to be a testament to whatever it is that these people have seen that makes them not give a shit, makes Forrest not give a shit about living in an on-the-corner house near two major thoroughfares or Stewart living in a Winnebago or whatever. Can I ask you one quick question about that?

Because I actually, again, feel totally fine about the devs project and where it's going and that there's an event that maybe makes the future unknowable. Like, that's awesome. That's sci-fi. Well, they don't know what happens in the future, right? Like, that's the problem. They did know up to a point and then something happens. And does the universe end? Who knows? And I love that idea.

Does Frisby become an Olympic sport? And it's let fingers effing crossed. My question is, you know, they showed us and then Katie Braggs about having seen, Jesus on the cross. Yeah. Right. And then Lyndon played audio that may well have been Jesus and all this. And so what she said in this episode, Katie, is that what they can do is if you have like a geotag, right?

Like you can, and you pick a year or whatever. It can recreate the moment, yeah. But, you know, I'm not a scripture guy. I'm not, you know, I'm perhaps I'm fallen. It's fine. We can get into that in a subsequent podcast. But what I want to know is, is there like a timestamp on the Psalms? Because I feel like you would have to run the simulation for much of the Middle East spatially.

But then also, like, every second of the year zero, right? Well, I guess for the crucifixion, it would be the year, what, 33. It's 32. 32, I thought. No, it's AD, right? So, look, we are not of the stuff. But I'm just saying, how many times, how many times did they tune in their computer space radio

and just hear like a bunch of Roman soldiers pissing in an alley? Or like a goat taking a dump? Yeah, right. Yeah. Or just some like dude and Aramaic selling brass bowls. Yeah. That's a great question. There's a lot of grunt work to this project.

It's not as glamorous as Stuart Winnebago makes it seem. I mean, if you can target, it's Golgotho, right? That's where the deed took place. Look, don't put this on me, man. That's half of your God. You know what I mean? I don't know. I don't know.

You didn't get a newsletter about that or something? I'm... You have a Slack channel? Yeah? I watched on Orthodox this weekend. Okay? I'm on my own trip. Oh, that's great stuff.

That's good stuff. Did you get a chance to check any of it out? Can I just give a little plug? I want you to talk about it. I did not get a chance to watch it. So this is me watching stuff, and I highly recommend it. There's a show on Netflix. It's called Unorthodox. It was co-created by Anna Winger, who I believe was on this podcast with her husband York a few years ago when they created a show that I loved called Deutsche Land 83. that was on Amazon and Deutsche Land 86 followed actually I think it ended up

on Amazon initially I believe it was on Sundance Channel. Anyway great great great show about Cold War era Germany and this is her new project and it's based on a memoir written by a woman who basically escaped and that's I believe

her word, not necessarily mine, her life in the ultra-Orthodox Hasidic Jewish community of that's based in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, to find a new life. And this is a four-episode miniseries. So not a huge time of commitment.

And it is both wonderfully done, like really skillfully done. It has a star-making performance by an Israeli actress named Shira Haas, who plays the main character. Esty, who is a 19-year-old, recently married, and escapes, basically,

just books out on her husband and her husband's family and the entire community to Berlin where her mother, who had already been kicked out of the community, lives, and where she tries to figure out herself and the modern world. And then she is pursued by her husband, whose name is Yankee. Can't wait to talk to you about Yankee hive. And his boy's cousin Moisha, who's fallen, but has come back and is chain smoking and like gambles and says that when You're on the road. The road has its own Torah, so you can live a little bit differently. It directed brilliantly by Maria Schrader, who people who did watch Deutsche Land 83 might remember as the co-star of that show. She's the very elegant Stasi boss. And she directed all four episodes of this. It's so, the production values in Berlin and in Brooklyn are so high. But it's, it is, I mean, it's what great art for the screen can do, which is show you a world you don't know. And I have just already made it quite plain for people who didn't know that I am Jewish, but I am not ultra-Orthodox. I do not know really much about that world. You don't know, for instance, exactly where Jesus was crucified.

Again, they're not as concerned with that as you may think. That's not really their whole trip. But I'm sure they wouldn't, you know, they wouldn't be uninterested. But, you know, this is a community that is in Brooklyn near where we used to live and hang out. And it's a whole, it's a completely other world. So is it set in the, it's modern set? Yes, but it jumps back a little bit back and forth in Esty's life, which she is, it begins with her fleeing and then we see the backstory of her marriage or arranged marriage and everything that went on in the marriage bed and all these details. But it's also just a really skillfully told story and a very compelling four-hour watch. This is also, we'll talk about it maybe in a week or so if people have a chance to catch up if people want to check it out.

I'll say that it was also a perfect tonic, and this is our segue here, because right before my wife and I delved into an Orthodox, which we both enjoyed so much, she made the really wild move of sort of walking quietly into the room and settling on the couch with a well-thumbed issue of The New Yorker magazine just as I was firing up the final episode of Zero-Zer Zero. my favorite episode of TV this year.

Which begins with a biblical bloodbath at a child's birthday party which led me to, again, since this is mostly just us repeating text chains,

text Chris, the words no disrespect to our friends who made coming to America, it's a shame what they did to that clown. And so I got, she didn't need to say anything. Like, I think she looked up from talk of the town and gave me a look that really only, you know, this many years of marriage can fuel. So much was said in this moment. Nothing verbal. But what was communicated to me was, this is how you choose to spend your time. Right. I have been

getting a lot of the same looks. So we switched on Orthodox, but let me just tell you, Chris, and those of you who tuned in for a zero zero zero talk, yes, it is how I choose to spend my time. I don't regret a second of So let's set this up a little bit. I have obviously been banging the drum for this show for a while. I was very interested in it coming out. For those who haven't been listening to the pod for the last couple of weeks, 000 is a show on Amazon Prime. It's a co-probe with Sky and Canal and I think a couple of other places.

And it stars Dan Dahan, Andrea Reisbro, Gabriel Byrne, a remarkable actor named Harold Torres. and it is one of the most violent things I've ever seen on television, so it's not an easy watch at all, but it is essentially the story of one blockbuster cocaine deal told from the perspective of the buyers, the sellers, and the brokers. So it's being sold out of Mexico, transported through New Orleans on a ship to Italy. So that's the sort of chain of events.

But that only tells like a minimal amount of the story. And Andy, obviously, is finished this. So the conversation that we're going to have is going to be spoilers. So we'll talk about things that happen in this series. But before we do, I do want to put a caveat on something you said, which was about the violence. And yes, we, you know, maybe we should have. We did joke about the sledgehammer to the chest. That does happen in the show.

I would actually argue that it is a different kind of violence. Because when you say that it's very violent, which it is, I think it creates a certain expectation. I would argue that it's more tasteful and in many ways less salacious than something that was more borderline respectable like Boardwalk Empire. And I intentionally would compare them because when watching this, your adrenaline gets up, your brain kind of, if you like this sort of entertainment, locks into a certain mindset that maybe it's not the one that you have when you're walking down the street back when we used to be able to walk down streets, which is, you're riding and chasing the highs of shock and retribution and, you know, debts being paid, and you're sort of expecting a body count, you know? Yeah, there's like a almost required, yeah, there's almost a required amount of violence per episode in something like Boardwalk.

But I think this show accomplishes something very subtle that I think that Saviano, Roberto Saviano, who wrote the book this is based on, has tried to do with Gamora and other things, which is basically show an unvarnished and rough world, but try to make the viewer or the reader or even the recreational drug user who doesn't even know about his work feel complicit in it in a way that you kind of can't wash off or turn off. And what I noticed as I was watching the show,

and I did start, you know, the first taste was free as I was joking, and then you really start wanting more and more of it until you finish the season. I caught myself wanting to linger more on quote unquote justified revenge killings or whatever. I found myself expecting and almost wanting to linger on stuff the way Scorsese sometimes does in his mob movies, the way Border Walk Empire definitely did, which is that thing where you build up a monstrous villain who does all this stuff for six episodes. And then when it's that person's time in the chopping block, just desserts, yeah.

They literally are chopped up on a chopping block and you linger on it. Right. The thing that this show did that I think is worth just mentioning as a blanket statement before we get into the specifics, it doesn't give you that. And then it leaves you feeling weird for having wanted it. The people who deserve to die, quote unquote, whatever that means in fiction, pretty much do. And even a lot of them who don't deserve to. Yeah. Depending what morality you bring to it.

But the show never gives you that one extra camera angle. It doesn't give you, if there's the one guy that you've sort of feel like you've been prepared to hate because he's treating the people we are, you know, presented to like in a unfair way, when the spray of machine gun fire goes off that eliminates a bunch of red shirt. that you've never seen before and that guy, that guy doesn't get anything special. That guy just gets killed. And there's something that is blunt and denying about that that I think is built into the whole production in a way that I really admire.

And with few exceptions, I would say that it is not torture porn. It's, yeah. There's one character who I think you're like, he's sort of McBaney, you know, where you're like, oh, like this guy is kissing his pregnant girlfriend and being like, baby. everything is looking great. I'm just going to the nightclub for a second.

That guy, honestly, doesn't fare well. But for the most part, I didn't find myself worrying for characters. Well, there is one of the main characters. And then after this, maybe we'll switch to spoilers. Literally says, boy, I can't believe we pulled it off. Yes. Oh, buddy. Come on.

Yeah, but you know what I mean? It's like by the time when violence happens on the show, it definitely feels like it's an extension of the actions of the characters and not something that they're using as like, this is the hammer. We have to drop to make it all worth it. And just to say, it's the last thing on this before you get into spoilers. If, you know, sometimes we put this little, we put this little sticker on shows we talk about. If you are on a meta level or an industry level, if you're a fan of just how stuff gets made, watch the show. Because I do not know how they made this.

Just in terms of the scope. I said that to Andre Arisbrough. I was like, more so than like, end game or any like, you know, blockbuster, you just watch this show. And this is actually a great segue for the thing that I wanted to point out first. So I think the first two episodes of this show are pretty good. You know, they're obviously incredibly immersive.

There are shows in at least three different languages. It's in Spanish, Italian, and English. So it's a lot to process, a lot of different languages to process, a lot of characters to kind of fix in a map. And the first two episodes, though, are largely like, they're pretty crime 101.

There's like rise to power stuff. There's like a lot of talking about like the business that people are in. And they're set in the, and it's set in these three different places. And you're kind of like going along with it. And then when, essentially when they get on the boat. So there is a ship that leaves for New Orleans

that is heading to Italy. And that ship is filled with the cocaine shipment that's going from Mexico to Calabria. And what happens is that that cocaine shipment becomes a character into itself. And sometimes it takes the shape of the ship. And sometimes it's in a truck. And sometimes it's in a Bitcoin and sometimes. But basically, that's the main character of the show.

And when you start to read the show through that lens, it unlocks it. And the other thing that unlocks it is this show just levitates off the ground and never comes back down. Because you watch a lot of TV and it kind of cycles through three, four locations. just practically speaking, shows have to do that. I cannot tell you the feeling I got when that ship took off and in the third episode at some point, Dane Dahan's character, Chris,

is kind of like basically trying to get his ship to port, any port, and he figures out that he can get it to Dakar, to Senegal. And you're like, okay, cool, I wonder how that will go back to New Orleans here. And you're like, no, the show itself is moving to Senegal. and then the show itself moves through North Africa, through Mali and through the desert.

And then the show itself moves through Casablanca. And then the show itself, and just that propulsion and that feeling like there are literally no borders to the way that they're telling the show, in the same way that there are no borders to this industry that's right in front of our eyes, but we don't see,

is one of the most miraculous things I have seen in TV in a long time. It's truly transporting. And I think that's one of the, the things that might make the show appeal to people who don't necessarily have the same, who don't like to hum the same tunes that we tend to hum in our creative passions. You know, when I tweeted that we were going to be talking about this, our pal, Philadelphia podcaster, and Spike Eskin was like, I fired it up and I'm enjoying it, but it's pretty

funny how instantly I knew that this was a Chris Ryan show. And it's true. But I think that TV's ability through these co-productions, through the expanded budget, through the expanded imagination that we exist in now, it can show us parts of Africa. Now, again, I do not mean to say that this is a travel show or that this is a culturally representative show that is like going to be an ambassador to get people out into the markets and ports of North Africa. Although there's some aspects of them that I found compelling. As a connoisseur of lots of different kinds of wrestling, I can see you get. really in. Yes, there are many wrestling options in this. It took us places and it cast people

and it brought, you know, the different, the sheer number of worlds that this, as you said, the shipment, the star of the show touches is fascinating and disturbing on a geopolitical level and compelling on a dramatic level. But on a creative level, it's really exciting and exhilarating to observe the way that they took that ethos into the production of the show to the best of their abilities and really took us on a trip. So the show itself follows a Mexican Special Forces soldier named Manwell, the Linwood family, which is essentially the children of the Linwood family played by Andrew Reisborough and Dane Dahan, Chris and Emma. And then a Calabrian mafia, intergenerational Calabrian Mafia sort of power struggle going on. And in each one of these things,

there's basically the theme that unites all three stories is this idea of getting rid of the old guard for the new and whether or not that the thing that gets rewarded in this world is more brutality, more violence, more unfeeling approaches to this trade, or whether or not it can still be operated in certain old ways. Like with Don Minu, who plays the, who is the kind of paternal figure of the Italian mafia, and there's his grandfather living in a bunker in the mountains, and his grandson is essentially making a move against him because it's his generation's term.

He wants to take over. And in some ways that happens in each setting. The Manuel character who makes a move against his own special forces commander and then later against the actual cartel that he's working for is essentially like I'm on a mission from God. I have the skills that no one else has because I've been trained as a special forces soldier, and I've decided that I will take this over.

The same thing actually winds up being true for Emma at the end of the show, because she's the person who's able to essentially sublimate any emotional reaction she would have to the death of her father and brother to complete the shipment and then continue the business. And in some ways, the Don Minu character does the same thing. It's just that he's going against the younger people

rather than the other way around. Well, the bigger question, I think, that goes beyond it. and the show discovers and presents to us, and I think the characters to some degree discover it themselves that they didn't already know, and Don Minu being the one who already knew, capitalism crushes everything else.

That is what this show is about, and it takes the form of extra legal drug trafficking, but ultimately it is just the convenient frame to hang a very modern morality in which only the money matters. And that is where everyone lands on this. You know, it's not, it's certainly not, family. It's not bonds of, I wouldn't say Manuel and our boy, Officer McBain, I wouldn't say

they're friends, but they were compatriots, partners to a degree. That's something that is mentioned at least a couple times. And Manuel, for whatever ability, whatever, however he is able to feel any kind of emotion, it seems to be coming out in some way in his ongoing relationship with his widow and the unborn, unborn baby. Ultimately, none of it matters. And you think about the people who come along the way and those who take on either enormous, outrageous personal risk to their bodies, to their health, to their futures, to their lives. Some don't come back from it. I'm thinking about specifically like the fixers, like Omar, the fixer in Africa and other characters. All of them have run the numbers to some degree and it's worth it for an amount of money.

There is a dollar figure attached to every single thing in this. And only Don Minu seems fine with that. Yeah. And when they get to that, the North African desert and they kind of come across the jihadi group who's running transport

across the region, even that jihadi group, true believers, can be bought for a price. Yeah, and are willing to, and again, with maybe a different exchange rate, but are willing to trade family

for larger business causes. Absolutely. I don't think it's cynical to say that their religious cause seems pretty similar to a financial and business cause in many ways in the way they're presented. Would you say that... Which character really leapt out of you?

Because when you tweeted this out, I think somebody in your mentions added me and said that they felt like the Harold Torres... Harold Torres is doing like to Shiro Mafuni stuff. And I think that that's like, obviously like a very, very generous comparison to Torres. But I don't think it's like so far out of wow. that you can dismiss it out of hand. Like, I think that he gives an absolutely stunning performance in this show.

Yeah, I think that it is truly an ensemble show, and characters, you know, some actors are only in one episode. Some actors come for a couple and make more of an impression than others. Across the board, it's an incredibly well-acted show. I think that without question, the standout, other than Andrea Reisbrough, who you're going to speak to, the standout performer is Harold Torres. And I think that's because he found in a show

that doesn't really go for the highly stylized character work that you might find another, like in the kind of more over the top drama, crime or drug stories that we were referencing earlier, he has the character that has the most meat on that bone in Vampiro, just because he's both dead-eyed and religious and savage and compelling. But so much of it is the problem.

performance, right? Because he makes a choice as an actor very early on how to carry himself physically, how to carry his body, his eyes. And the more he does and the higher he rises, just the more outrageously charismatic and disturbing it is. And ultimately, I think he triumphs. There were moments earlier on when I was like, this feels, it never feels kitschy, but it felt like a really big, chewy bite of something that felt out of whack with the rest of the show. The religious beliefs of the character felt in the beginning of this season, you're like,

is this going to somehow be used to explain his behavior or is he going to have some sort of moment of redemption? But it actually makes him into such an enigmatic figure because he is obviously someone who is looking for direction from God. But the

absence of the direction to him affirms the choices he's making. If God didn't want him to do the things he was doing, he would say so, essentially. Right. And I think there's an element of the performance and the character and the religious thing

that feels a little bit like Mr. Blonde dancing. But Mr. Blonde dancing in like triumph of the will, right? Like it's just like these... You kind of want the killer who has a little panache. That's a, you know, it's a Cohn Brothers thing. I mean, it's what I like in fiction, but it didn't necessarily fit in this world at first. Sure, but you know what I think it does work?

Is when later in the series, he takes the widow of the guy he killed and who he is sort of courting. To church, and there's snake charming, and there's writhing on the ground and speaking in tongues. And she's like, you're a whack job. I totally agree with you.

I'm so happy you mentioned that scene. Because, you know, and I don't know, I reached out to Mauritio Katz, who's a good guy who I know a tiny bit, and he was, took on a lot of the writing and adapting and show running of the show. He previously worked on the bridge and on the, um, maniac with our pal Patrick Somerville. Anyway, I wondered if it was his addition because I know the book, zero zero zero is really more reportage. It's like Saviano being like, and this could happen. Although we should point out that it's not without its detractors. Like for his Titanic of a figure as Saviano is in the world, like Mark Bowden wrote like a slightly critical review for the Times

where he was just like, this kind of plays a little fast and loose the fact in fiction and legend and he... And that's kind of the role he plays where he's just like, let me tell you a true story that's going to like absolutely blow your mind. So he's kind of getting high on his own supply a little bit in terms of drama. This book was kind of him being like, I know stuff, man. Yeah. And a lot of the characters and scenarios were invented for the show,

which I think was a good thing. But I wanted to say specifically that church, scene and the line that it all hinges on where she's like, why'd you take me here, weirdo? I thought you were going to take me out for an ice cream. And then a day later, he's like, knocks on her door after a whole lot of shit has gone down at like midnight and said, I'm here to take you out for an ice cream. And that line is so specific. It's so human and so weird. And it did everything you're saying. It brought down the extravagance of the character back into the rest of the world of the show, but also gave it a little bit of fictional crackle that I thought helped power the whole rest of the series.

Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a moment there where you're wondering whether or not this guy is going to try and matriculate back into the real world. And the reason why I'm so attracted to these shows, aside from the fact that I usually find very visually compelling and narratively interesting is that these stories about the underworld tell these mirror image, but slightly cracked mirror image stories about our society. is they're not separated. They're inseparable to imagine the real world economy functioning out without the underworld economy anyway. But when you watch these things take place, there are almost these morality plays

where everything is heightened, all the emotions are jacked up, all the consequences are jacked up. But what's really interesting is when you see people try to straddle both worlds. And for a second there, it seems like Manuel is trying to have it both ways. He's trying to live this life as a cartel enforcer.

His group of characters are obviously very based on like the Zetas and, you know, these guys who had special training by the Mexican army and became the muscle for cartels. And you think for a second, is this guy going to really try and become a father? You know, and what he realizes about himself is, he at least has the awareness about himself to be like, I'm not of this world. Like, I can't take her for ice cream. I can't be a dad. I can't hang out. I'm the guy who executes people at bus stops. He is the dead-eyed future of, the drug trade of potentially of global capitalism because unlike the lairas whom he dispatches the party he knows you cannot pretend to be both you cannot have the trappings of a respectable life and go to certain restaurants and have clowns blowing up balloons at your children's birthday party or even have children and also do the everything do the things that are required to be done in this world and potentially emma realizes that too you know chris says to I've never been in love and she gives him kind of a rueful smile,

which to me read also as, do you think I have? Or do you think you ever will, really? Yeah. Or would. And Don Minu still seems to think he can do it because he's playing with his great-grandson at the end. But, you know, he's 0 for two with children. Well, the thing that breaks Stefano ultimately is the endangerment of his family. And that doesn't break Don Minu.

he's like if Stefano betrays me or betrayed Emma and I mean we could talk I mean I think six and eight are masterpieces six is the episode that's largely about manwell and it's about him sort of courting this woman while also trying to organize the purchase of a bunch of weapons and there's a huge set piece in that and that episode that also I think six is also the training episode where he's like building the army and then eight is when everything kind of gets

wrapped up, but it features this kind of Shakespearean ending for the Italian crime family saga where Don Mino has to stab his own grandson in the heart in front of Emma to make up the difference of Emma's family getting killed in the process of doing this deal. It's fucking heartbreaking. Like, I was actually legitimately, like, choked up. Yeah, there's something about this, and I think maybe we could, we can finish the conversation here. I think I alluded to this a few weeks ago when I started the show, maybe it was last week. I don't, you know, I think we've all lost track of time a little bit. People are seeking different kinds of entertainment in this particular global moment. And I would, you know, I was hesitant and I think you were hesitant to recommend it because

of, you know, this being really kind of stressful to some people. Our friend Alexa Fogel, who will hear us talking about this, the casting director of so many brilliant shows, including Plot Against America, which is out now, and we should check out, has been emailing us basically being like, I can't watch the show at night because it stresses me out too much. Yes. Weirdly, I did not get stressed out watching the show. And take it a step further, there's the scene in the desert with the jihadis where Chris is on one side of the car and the jihadis that he's with are praying and he takes out

his hearing aid. And it's actually a beautiful moment of filmmaking because it's not surprising you, which is a crazy thing to say. You watch that, and I promise you, you, you, like. like we did, knew something was going to happen. It could pretty much guess what was going to happen because it alluded to earlier in the episode, but also you feel it. It's so set up.

But it's that kind of setup where the resolution of it doesn't feel like you don't feel cheated like you were handheld. You feel like it resolved. Yes. There's a confidence in the story that it's telling throughout. And maybe that's why I felt, maybe it's the Shakespearean element of it that you're maybe it's just the doom that's shot through the whole thing. So it never wants to tricks you that there's going to be a happy ending.

This isn't a show about that. It's also something about. I mean, like, it's way closer to Michael Van than it is to, I don't know, like, it's than the bridge or something like that. Like, it's, it is so stunning to look at and to listen to the Maguire score for the show is unbelievable. One of the best in recent memory for any show. I guess what I want to say ultimately about it is, and I think this is why I loved it so much, the high it gives you is not a cocaine high, meaning it is not just like little bumps that make you jittery, they make you uncomfortable, that make you nervous. they make you nervous, they make you like, you know, not, it has a much more grounded emotional

sweep to it. For sure. That I found deeply satisfying. And, you know, weirdly, I don't, I don't know what it says about me or what it says about the world, but I watched each, I watched the episodes that I watched later night. And I felt satisfied by them and, you know, upset and disturbed in appropriate ways. And then I slept well. I don't know what that says.

But this, I just want to communicate that to people who maybe listen to some of these spoilers. Honestly, if you watch this show, you will be like, there is something very affirmative about the art of making TV, whatever it is now. And it's hard to say that this epic international copro that looks more like heat than it does Breaking Bad, it feels like when you finish it, you're like, holy shit, like we still have tons of stories to tell and tons of ways to tell them. Yeah.

And also, frankly, in this world, too, they don't need to make more. No. they could, and I bet they're considering it. And I'm glad we should get out on that note, because I'm glad you talk to Andrea Reisbrough, who's an actress who I think you and I have noticed and admired and things, she was so amazing in Birdman and a bunch of other recent movies.

Yeah, even going back to like Shadow Dancer, she's an incredible actress. But this is one of those roles where you're like, oh, she wanted this one. You know what I mean? It is a step out of a lane. She gets to play Michael Corleone. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Let's get into my interview with Andre Bexbrough. We'll be back on Thursday. Probably talking a little bit of Ozark, talking Briar Patch, talking Breaking Bad, check out tonight's breaking,

sorry, breaking bad. Check out tonight's better call us all. It's very breaking bad. I will say that. And could I say also, check out tonight's Briar Patch because this is the penultimate episode. People have already dinged me that you...

Did you Pelicanus this? I don't want to give anything away. I'll say this. This is probably my favorite episode for a whole host of reasons. I can't wait for people to see this one. It's a really weird one. This is the one Chris was on set for.

I can't believe we pulled it off. I'm really proud of it. It's different. It's strange. Written by our old friend and podcast listener Brian Brown, directed by the brilliant Arasha Stevenson. I wish we could get them both on the pod to talk about it.

And it contains, as I just said on Twitter, it has a surprise in this episode that I'm so excited for people to see. I can't believe we kept it a secret. And we will definitely talk about it on Thursday because I can't believe we pulled it off. I can't wait. All right, man. Stay safe. I'll talk to you on Thursday.

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checkout. Go to whoop.com, that's W-H-O-O-O-P-com, and enter watch at checkout to save 15%. Sleep better, recover faster, and train smarter, optimize your performance with Woop. I'm so, so honored to have on the watch today, Andrea Risebro, who's one of the stars of 0-00, which is a show on Amazon Prime right now, based on a book by Roberto Saviano, directed by, in part, by Stefano Solimo, who we've talked about a lot on the pod as big fans, of Gomorrah and Sicario, Dave of the Salado. And Andrea, I'm so excited to have you. You're incredible in this show and I've been such a big fan of your work. I think going back to like Shadow Dancer is when I first was like, who is this? Yes, so was I.

Well, I know that it's a crazy time. So I really appreciate you taking time to call in. How have you been coping with the staying at home stuff? You know, it's fucking horrible what's happening. Can I swear? Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. That's very freeing. It's one of the staples of our podcast is elaborate uses of profanity, so go for it. I'm very good at swearing.

It's one of the staples of my communication. So, yeah, I feel a bit like as fucking horrible as everything it is that is happening. It's a strange pause button we've all hit. Yeah. You know, it's a strange... reflective times. Well, you know, in terms of the show, in terms of zero zero, zero, I think that I didn't have any trepidation. I've watched it over the course of about the last two and a half, three weeks, I think,

maybe a little bit. I watched the first episode or two a little bit a while back and then really got into it over the last two or three weeks. And at first I think I was a little hesitant because I was like, oh, you know, it's, when it's so bleak outside, do you want to go on a really bleak journey with a piece of art or pop culture. And I found myself completely transported by it. Like really almost not escapism. It wasn't escapism, but I found myself so immersed in the world that everyone created with the show. I wanted to, just to get into zero zero. Zero. I was wondering, just for our listeners, I have like a sense of it. But can you tell me a little bit about how you got involved with the project? Because it seems like such a huge commitment time wise. And

somebody like you, you seem very prolific. So you had to make a choice to give up, what, upwards of two years of your life for this? Yeah, I mean, I think it was the end of 2017 when I met Stethnal. The Stenol and I would text on the other day and he was like a terrible B movie outside. You know, he's an issue right now, right in the thick of it. So I'm in contact with everyone because we spent a year and a half of our lives together and making it thing. And it was in Shotsam's like different countries.

it really was an international undertaking. The like had not really been part of. I'd say even with a studio movie, because a studio movie, there's so many sets in a studio movie, and it tends to be kind of, you shoot in one, two, or three places, and it's very contained,

whereas everything in zero, zero, zero that we've shot, other than one location is the actual location. Right. And just to achieve that, in itself following the shipment of cocaine around the world was, was, I think, something that none of us had bargained for. It was such a vast, sprawling piece. We'd have, you know, sometimes two or three units in different countries,

you know, working at the same time and three different directors. But, yeah, it was the end of 2017 when I met Stefano, and I met him and we talked a little about the character, and I think Roberto Saviano's really a fantastic, such an unusual writer. And I was excited about Defano because of Gamora. And I've loved, really loved his work on Gomorrah. And so we sort of started the conversation then and then we met again. And I wanted to, you know, the next time I met Stefan, I wanted to know certain things.

I wanted to understand whether this trade that we may or may not all realize we all stand on the shoulders of in some sense. Sure. Was it to be depicted as sort of sensational, titillating, glamorous trade, or whether the aim was to show a mother of three cutting cocaine and a fact. actory, a more realistic version. I feel when I've watched an epic drunk saga or, you know, any kind of, other than Gomorra, I feel often there's something, if you're really honest about it, that's the entire thing. Mm-hmm. I agree with that.

What I loved about this and what I really wanted to, what I hoped, Stefano wanted to, with this was that it was, you know, when you look at the cocaine trade, you actually don't want any part of it at all. It's just a manifestation of a lot of people's greed, pain, fear, wanting to get to the top of their own society, you know, and he really assured me that that's what he wanted, you know. That was kind of the beginning of 2018, and then we started shressing it in March of 2018, and now here we are sharing it with the world. Yeah. You mentioned the sort of globetrotting nature of the production,

and I know that you've over the last few years started producing some of your own work. Was there ever a moment? Because when you watch the show, and I watch the show, more so than almost watching Avengers or something, I just can't understand how you made this. Like, I can't understand how you guys did this. and when you would show up to set,

were there any like holy shit moments when you would show up and just say, I can't believe we're shooting here? Every day. Yeah. It was possibly only one period of time, which sort of wasn't like that. And that was the storyline that's rooted in New Orleans,

which is where my character, Emma Linwood's family, had a trading company, a quote, unquote, trading company for presumably hundreds of years. and that was a really interesting part of the story for me because I wanted to imagine what they'd traded in the past how dirty their hands were

how an acceptance or denial of what Chicago was they were that period was really in and around the house the family house and it's where we started and it felt very content it's hard to even describe it was life-changing with a life-changing job

in the middle of this job as well I filmed the Grudge franchise that I did. Yeah. I filmed the non-a-shir-sherfing film, The Kindness of Strangers, which we opened Berlin the year before last. And we had hiatuses when we needed to get permits. And, you know, the thing was so vast and sprawling and epic that we were dealing with permits in five countries all over the world,

you know, at once. and a really sensitive subject matter as well. Of course. People really needing to know exactly what the show is going to be about and exactly how their country is going to be depictions. And that almost reflects your character's kind of journey who's this constant sort of trying to fix situations, trying to work on the fly to sort of push this ship

and then these trucks and then, you know, across the globe. I think if ever starts off, she's not, she's judiciously maintaining the family business and she really is the one person who is holding it together you know, toward the end of her father, Edward Lynn

was career, played by Gabriel Pern. He's almost basking in the glory of what he's created more than he's actually invested in the day to day. He's slightly gotten out of touch with how

Emma keeps the logistics of this shipping company running. And at the beginning, I think she really feels like she's keeping a head of water in a sense. I think she becomes power hungry in a really understandable way. There's a lot of grief shoes and people. I don't want to say too much without talking about.

I was going to save the sort of spoilery stuff for the end of our conversation, but I did want to talk about that. Right. But I think rather than facing that, she faces the task ahead. And she steps forward in the world in the way that she thinks she'll be respected, which seems to work. She begins to need that.

She begins to need that power. Yeah. I almost see that these eight episodes, in a sense, it's like the portrait of the beginning of a dawn. And I would say, going off that thought, I would say that in the final episode, your character basically goes through the entire Michael Corleone godfather arc in about 25 minutes. I mean, she loses a loved one in Morocco. She exacts her revenge and delivers her shipment in Italy. And then she completes this transaction in Mexico in one

of probably the most memorable scenes I'll see on television this year, easily. You know, that final interaction with Manuel in Monterey. And I was one of the most memorable. I was one of the most wondering if you would be able to talk me through it because your character, whereas Dane's character, I think, has a lot of externalized, like, here are the sort of things that my character is grappling with. Your character, it's almost like backloaded so that it's at the very end that we kind of see Emma emerge from all of this as almost a new person, as a different person. But did you see it that way, or did you see Emma as always having this in her? And these events just were sort of galvanizing.

It's a tough question. I think because, you know, because my job's sort of to approach it from the inside out, psychologically, I think with any person, whatever your journey is, you know,

whether it's short or long, it's very difficult to have an objective relationship with it, you know? Sure. So I feel almost like it was, she was existing day to day, and what came out of that was this association, which was always brewing.

You know, it had been brewing since the death of her mother when she was young. But a dissociation from her own feelings. One of the most interesting things that I really loved about the dynamic between Emma and Chris was that, in a sense, Dane's character is the one, the emoting character. Yeah. To normally, is the space that the female actor occupied, you know, generally speaking. It often happens that way. And with Emma, so much is internalized and so much stands on her shoulders,

and she's not allowed to be in any way the vulnerable one. Right. I think she's even surprised herself how utterly detached she can be from human suffering toward the end. Well, and you have to imagine that the loss of essentially her total, all of her family prepares her for that moment where she's sort of, left the dock then by the time she gets to Mexico. It does. And also I think what's really important to talk about, which is the beginning of the book is about really sort of the ideology of what it is to be in a crime family and what

that means. But this honour is put above all else. And because she's been raised so closely with such close links to this Italian family, and that's really what she's known. I think even she is surprised how she's been in training for her all life. Yeah. But I also think there's sort of the glee in that as well. I mean, she surprises herself by how far she can come and she really is able to operate without engaging any of her feelings. In a way, playing that person for a long time was really liberating. Really? Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely, because we are as well, encouraged to have a sort of fairly deep understanding of our own feelings and, you know, emotional intelligence is something that's certainly encouraged in women or, you know, anyone who identifies as a woman. And it was such a special experience and such a freeing experience to walk into a room and literally not give a shit about what anybody thought about me. Yeah. And I'm not sure that I'll ever have that again, to be honest. Well, I mean, it's hard to imagine you ever having to do a scene between two dead bodies on a love seat while talking to a Mexican special forces officer. But that moment in the final episode, and there's a couple of things that you do in there. I mean, first of all, the way that they stage it is essentially like this fucked up Caravaggio painting with you in between these bodies. took two weeks

that one scene took two weeks are you kidding me no that must have been so grueling I mean I also imagine that at a certain point gallows humor has to come into play right it was in every

in when you can't even imagine for everybody involved in those themes was so grueling and they were incredible really really incredible but yeah I mean I mean there were literally bodies on the floor for a week I mean, you know, everyone was getting up and having breaks and taking care of, but to the people who didn't move a muscle in that scene, it was challenging.

Actually, that shot, I think, reminded me more of when we shot Birdman, it reminded me of Birdman. Yeah. Because we were in, we were perfecting this one scene for such a very long time, and it was so many right passage cobbled together in this. one sequence. And the amount of times that we walk through it versus the amount of takes that we actually end up with, you know, there were the huge disparities. Yeah, I'm sure, yeah. Because I was curious about some of the reactions that Emma had. I mean, she kind of gives Manuel this little, you give this little smirk when he hands you his phone number. And then when you're walking out of the Lara's mansion, you just let out this smile to one of the, you just let out this smile to one

the teenage vampiros. And I don't want to ruin the magic, but I was just wondering if you could walk me through sort of what you were kind of formulating, because part of the, it's so amazing, is we don't get the explanation for what Emma's thinking other than she immediately sets up a next bit of business to do with Manuel. But those two gestures that you do, I mean, I love you knocking the balloons out of the way as you're walking down this hallway. But that, that, that, sort of smirk you give Manwell and then the actual smile you give the teenage soldiers as you're walking back to your SUV. I was just like, what the hell is she thinking? It's so magical. You know, I think I'd rather allow everyone to sort of have their own experience with that

and totally break it down if you'll forgive me. No, that's fine. I was just curious, yeah. I love you that you're interested. And what I can say is one of the things that I really love about my job, I suppose, is the idea that if you're in an extraordinary situation as a human being that you may never have been in before, nor may you ever be in. One of the things that I've found I've learned most in this mindset is you have no idea how you respond. you know, if I imagine, if I truly imagine being in that situation, apart from anything else, I don't really remember what happens in between action and cut, you know, in those kind of scenes anyway.

But I could never anticipate reacting the way that I react, which is always odd. No, but that's a perfect way of putting it. Yeah. Maybe that's why the scene works so well. perhaps that's what maybe it's on with what we we've come to expect from film language you know from emotional film language and that's something that really keeps me going in my work or was just the idea that

we none of us really know how we'd respond and I don't know if that's how I'd respond but what I can say is if I put myself far enough into a all sorts of crazy shit comes up you know and that's worth exploring because like every thing in life, like, you know, when we talk about grief as human beings, something that's where we

all have a commonality, grief expresses itself in such wonky ways that you wouldn't imagine. It comes out sideways and backwards and all at the wrong time and it's not linear and you want to control it, but you can't because it's so all-encompassing, you know? And I feel like any deeply emotional situation or potentially dangerous situations still, there's up so many things you wouldn't expect often. Well, that's been the case for me trying to play different characters in these situations, you know. You know, actually Shadowdance is a wonderful example of that. I very much thought it would be wonderful.

It would be wonderful if Collette wore a red coat, which is the most eye-capturing, least conspicuous thing you could possibly want to wear. but if you really if you're really saying to the world there is absolutely nothing to look at here then you're not scared

of wearing a red coat right well I just think that the choices that you made in this show are so fascinating and they're so like enigmatic and charismatic

but they don't ever distract from the actual sort of thrust of the story itself and it's such a unique piece of work and I just want to just thank you so much for joining us today and taking time out of your day to call in. I really, really, it's wonderful people feeling like they've been taken on this international journey with this thing, with this thing that we created over the period of time. It's really

amazing to share it with people. I'm really, really glad you enjoyed it. Yeah, thank you so much for making it. Andre Reisbrough, thanks so much for joining the watch. Thank you.