The Watch - Remembering Chadwick Boseman With Reggie Ugwu. Plus: ‘I May Destroy You’ Finale and an Interview With the Killers' Brandon Flowers.

Episode Date: August 31, 2020

Chris and Andy are joined by New York Times culture reporter Reggie Ugwu to talk about the life and career of Chadwick Boseman, who passed away on Friday following a private battle with colon cancer (1:32). Plus, Chris and Andy break down the finale and phenomenal season of ‘I May Destroy You’ (25:36), and Andy is joined by the Killers' lead singer Brandon Flowers to talk about their new album, ‘Imploding the Mirage’ (53:16). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guests: Reggie Ugwu and Brandon Flowers Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line as always. It's Andy Greenwald. Andy, what's up, man? Happy Monday.

Happy Monday, not that happy. No, I know. So Andy and I have a sad show today because we are paying tribute and remembering Chadwick Postman. We passed away on Friday after a battle with colon cancer. and just one of those, just shots in the heart, man. This has happened way too often. It feels like where you get sucked into this kind of spiral of morning

when somebody really meaningful, a public figure like this passes away. Andy, we have a special guest on the show today to talk about Chadwick. Yes, we're really happy and lucky to have Reggie Ughu from the New York Times culture reporter who profiled Chadwick in 2019 and wrote his obituary over the weekend to join us and just to sort of help us contextualize this news and talk about it. And then after our conversation with Reggie, we'll be back with a few more thoughts. We then will get into the rest of the show, which will feature finale talk from I May Destroy You, which ended last week. And then wrapping up a podcast in interview with one of our favorite musicians, Brandon Flowers, lead singer of the

Killers, whose new album is really amazing. But on our main topic today. Let's get into our conversation with Reggie Uglu from the New York Times. Yeah, let's do it. Chris and I are excited now to be joined by a culture reporter for the New York Times. Reggie Uglu, Reggie, thank you so much for joining us under not ideal circumstances. We really appreciate you making the time. Yeah, no.

I wish it was under better circumstances, but it's a delight to be a friend of the pod officially. Yes, thank you. I know you have been listening for a while, so we really appreciate that as well. So just to set the scene, in 2019, you profiled Chadwick Boseman for The Times. And then over the weekend, you wrote his obituary. You did a beautiful job with both pieces. And I guess the place we wanted to start with this conversation is kind of where it started for all of us over the weekend.

Where were you when you heard this news? How did you hear this news? And kind of, for all of that, were you as surprised as everyone else? Was everyone in the world caught off guard by this? Yeah, no, I was just as shocked like anyone. And, well, thank you for the kind words. But I was out, you know, having a socially distanced drink here in Brooklyn, which you can do now before 11 p.m.

And I got a text for my sister, actually, letting me know. And I was completely stunned. Yeah, I had no idea that he was struggling with this, that he was so sick. And it was just devastating, devastating instantly. there's a very sadly familiar thing that has now I've noticed happening in 2020 I remember where I was when when Kobe Bryant died and I'll remember where I was when Chagra Bozeman died and so many other stories from this year where there's like that moment where everybody

just starts looking at their phones you know what I mean like and you kind of get there's just nothing to say and it's like you just get sucked into the immediate stream of that did you find yourself getting you know immediately looking at all these remember Or did you have to take a step back and kind of have almost like a moment to yourself? Yeah. I mean, it was kind of like, I mean, my night was kind of done after after I got that, that text. And then the whole room really fell silent. And everyone was just completely shocked.

And, you know, shortly I was kind of looking at my phone to see what was going on. And shortly thereafter I got a call from my editor and we started planning the obituary. I do we do want to steer the conversation into talking about obviously his immense talent and this incredible legacy that he's now left us with but just to stay with this this theme for a moment of just the shock as someone who spent time with him and even in that piece you know it it reads a little bit differently now when there's the line about how a request to talk to his brother was denied you know that there was as much as his talent was what led he led with his talent he also maintain this really incredible privacy. And more than anything else, I'm stunned by that. I mean, and totally in awe and admiration of it. But how could someone be this public and yet be this private in 2020? Yeah, no, it's really remarkable.

And it was one of the first things that I noticed when I started doing research for the piece is that was just so little about his personal life and his biography that was out there. And, yeah, I mean, come on to have done the film. that he did while dealing with colon cancer. I mean, what was it? It was Marshall. It was Black Panther, it was Avengers. All these performances that he's become so well known for while he was privately dealing

with the sickness. It's pretty unbelievable to comprehend. And not to harp on this one specific piece of it, but when these remembrances began to flow from his coworkers and co-stars and people who'd also become friends, clearly close friends, and they had very meaningful relationships with off-screen. Part of my brain expected them to say, though I knew Chad was dealing with something, or though I prayed for his recovery.

And it does seem like almost up and down the board, everyone was completely stunned. And again, that just seems so, it seems superhuman. It seems super heroic. Right. No, I think that's exactly right. And even he has a project coming out for Netflix.

And from what I've heard, you know, even his most recent call, did not know that he was struggling with this. I mean, he was obviously a very private person, and he wanted to lead with the work, as you were saying. He wanted to put it on the screen and have that be what people saw. And I think that was in keeping with his entire approach to celebrity, right? I mean, even with his performances, when you think about King Tachala and Black Panther,

when you think about his performance in Marshall or in 42 or in Get On Up, you don't see Shadow Vic Moseman. You see the character. He was that kind of actor who wanted to disappear in a role and really inhabit it because I don't think he thought it was about him. I think it was about serving the performance and serving the story. Do you think that was... Sorry, Chris.

Just one last thing, just because we rarely have legitimate journalism on this show. It's usually just me and Chris talking about movies that I haven't seen. Just to be clear, so there was no, in your knowledge and you're reporting and in talking to people, there were no secret NDAs or conversations off the record. where people said he can't do this this week or he's not going to be able to do X or Y movie. It was completely as secret as it appears to have been. No, yeah, completely, completely secret.

I had no inkling of it. Yeah, actually, when I met him, and he was working so much, right? He was just back to back to back. When I met him, he had just flown in at 6 a.m., it was in Los Phila's in L.A. at a restaurant and he had flown in 6 a.m.

And then that morning he had done, going from a shoot, he was shooting 21 bridges. And that morning he had done the roundtable with Hollywood Reporter and then he was doing his interview with me for a couple hours. And then he was back to the set.

And he was just like, he told me, he was like I feel like a zombie right now, which I've been thinking about a lot in the past few days because I can only imagine what he was shouldering even in that moment. Well, I was going to ask, Reggie,

one of the more unique things about Chadwick was that he came to, fame came to him rather late in life when compared to a lot of other stars, movie stars that we have. I mean, somebody like Chris Evans plays Captain America, has been pretty much a celebrity since he was in his early 20s, if not late teens. Do you think that

that experience of kind of not finding that notoriety until middle age essentially was something that shaped Chadwick? Oh, no. I think. in middle age. Yeah, well. He was 35, but he was not...

So, I mean, I was pretty middle age myself in my case. I'm definitely a senior citizen. Think about us. Yeah. No, no, I think there's something to that, for sure. For sure. He was very grounded when he became well-known.

And, you know, he had spent at that point, you know, over 10 years, I think he was, he had been in New York, working in theater, where he wrote and directed plays. And he had been, of the New York shows like CSI, New York, that kind of thing. So he'd been around working steadily outside of the limelight. And I think that that helped ground him in a way. And even when he went to Hollywood, he did it in this very kind of intentional, pragmatic, almost workman-like way,

where he was just attacking these auditions and building relationships with casting directors and just went about it in a very professional way where he built up a relationship. And he was just incredibly talented and hardworking and discipline. I could have got the sense that he was one of these kind of people that would have been successful at anything that he tried. He could have been a car salesman or an investment banker,

but he decided that he wanted to be a movie star and he became one of the biggest of his generation. Yeah, I love that line in your profile where he says something about, if you come to L.A. with the New York hustle, like, watch out, basically. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, I really appreciate that when we're talking about someone of this much talent, of this much strength, of this much poise,

there is one thing that is relatable to me about him, and that is he just kind of spent his 20s bumming around Brooklyn. I feel like that gives me hope. But speaking of that poise and that strength, I mean, one of the things that I'm taking away from reading even more about him and thinking about him, especially now in this context, is just how aware he was of what his performances meant to the world and to his audiences. And yet what I really appreciated about your profile, especially again, reading it again now,

he did seem to take some pleasure in being himself. And there was a sly sense of humor that peaked out in that profile. Could you speak to that a little bit about just, obviously, he was tired. Obviously, it's, you know, doing press is just another part of his day at that point. but did you get a sense of the man behind the legend? Yeah, it was at the very end of my interview with him, interview with him where he told this incredible story about being at a concert with his girlfriend.

When he turned into James Brown to kind of take care of a guy who was standing in front of them with his butt crack, so he kind of ruining the mood. And I was, that came at the very end of the interview and I was totally delighted to hear him kind of go there. But, you know, he was talking about, it came from, again, his commitment to his performances because he was talking about immersing himself in a role and, you know, coming down from a long stretch where he was embodying a character and how he carries some of that with him. but the way that he carries it with him in that instance was really humorous Reggie, do you have a personal favorite performance by him? Well, you know, get on up.

I feel like it's just really incredible striking performance because he's doing the dance moves. He's doing the voice. He has this way of just kind of almost, it's almost like an impression. impressionistic performance where he doesn't necessarily resemble him to a T, but he kind of conveys the personality or the spirit of James Brown. And I just think that you can't, you're not going to get a much more dynamic or performance from anyone than in that movie.

I think that that's a great performance to mention because to do that is totally unique and incredible. Almost no one can do that to bring a legend back to life, right? And embody him with the right spirit and make it feel like alive and not just like cutting and pasting or imitation. But yet he was able to do that and then turn around in a Black Panther create a legend, basically, for an entire generation of moviegoers and beyond and future moviegoers. And I can't kind of get over that.

And I rewatch Black Panther over the weekend. And as much as I love the movie, I don't think I appreciated it enough because I don't think I was aware of what it, the audacity of what it accomplished, you know, because now we look back on it and we think, well, yeah, of course. You know, of course you get this many talented people together. You have, you bring this much representation and fresh thinking and ideas to something that works the Marvel universe. It's going to make a billion dollars. But this was never a short thing. And the more we read about his performance, the more we realize how much of that. came from his commitment to making something that would matter and that would last,

that whether it was speaking, bringing an African accent to the character, making sure that his language wasn't colonized, to, I think it was his idea. We learned this weekend to have the spearholders and the ceremonies be dancing, so they didn't just seem like Roman soldiers. He was making this movie to last forever. And I don't even have a question. I'm just kind of an honor.

No, the same. I mean, that was really the role that he was born to play. He intersected with his personal interests. He had been a longtime fan of a comic book since at least college. And, you know, he was very interested in African history, African politics, African spirituality. Some of that led into his plays that he wrote. And, you know, you just see those kinds of stories. yeah, from Ryan Coogler, who shared his remembrance the other day, about him being kind of the torchbearer, the standard bearer on set, who really believed in what the project was and could see what it was going to be even before Ryan Coogler could see it necessarily. And it's really, you're right, it's really remarkable to contemplate. And I think it's very hard to do because the character, to have to take on that weight, to be in a role of such outside. symbolic significance and to not, you know, crumble or to not, and not to be too flashy either,

not to make it about him, but to just kind of have the shoulders that can bear it and bring it to life. This was kind of his gift. We've seen so many performers, like the playing a superhero just does their head in in variety of ways, you know, like whether it's just like they lose a sense of like what they're what they're supposed to be doing as an actor or an actress and or it just kind of takes them on a road of fame that they never really get off of and you you kind of lose maybe some quality roles in the process but Chadwick definitely he had this quality where I was like it feels like he's always been here like you know it was out of nowhere but always been here it was such as an interesting trajectory to get to get to that point where he becomes this

iconic figure in just a matter of years yeah no And I think Hollywood kind of looked at him that way as well, right? Like within a few years of his arrival, they're like, okay, now you're Jackie Robinson, now you're Thurgood Marshall, now you're James Brown, and he just kept on these roles. And, you know, Wesley Morris talked about that and his remembrance from the other day about how there's something kind of ludicrous to the idea of that, or something kind of classically Hollywood, or just, oh, just give it to this guy, crank these out. But Shavik was able to bring humanity in depth to those roles and to kind of make them worthwhile,

even though you would never guess that kind of thing should exist or would work. Yeah, I mean, I would leave for me personally, like, I'll leave this to Wesley and to Sean Fantasy to sort of make comparisons, but I don't know if there's ever been a run like this, like any actor ever. Like these are the parts that actors wait their whole careers for and usually, you know, they get the trophy off of. and then they get the, or they get the, you know, the, um, it happens, but it happens way younger. And it happens like McConaughey where he does like two roles and then he's in a time to kill, but he was way younger. But he also then just knocked out four of them.

Yeah, right. It's outrageous. Reggie, I, I wanted to make sure our listeners just, you know, as they, if they don't already know your work, and I mentioned this to you when we first spoke a year ago, you wrote just that this incredible piece in the Times last year called They Set Us Up to Fail about black directors of the 90s, who were, many of whom were briefly like, critical darlings and then were not given second chances or in some ways weren't even given first chances. And that came to mind when I was thinking about Chadwick's legacy and specifically

Black Panther again. Could you speak a little bit about the difference, if you see it this way, of course, between putting a black actor in a superhero movie and making it a black movie, you know, and the differences that that meant for, the difference that makes and what it says about that movie Black Panther and how it was received and what it meant to people. Yeah, no, I think it's an interesting point because, you know, you can kind of see it in Chattowick's career, this transition from an era where it was just default. It was going to be, you know, a white guy who's going to tell the story, right? Because he's directed, you know, by Tate Taylor and Get On Up and Brian Helglin and 42.

And I kind of wonder, like, if those movies were getting made today, it's hard for me to imagine a white director taking on those projects. So he kind of straddled that shift in the industry. And, I mean, the proof is in the eating of the Black Panther, right? Like, I think the reason why it resonated was because of all those details that Shadwick was able to bring to it, that Kugler and Lupita and the incredible cast was able to bring to it. Like, they took it very seriously.

And these were top-level, world-class, performers and filmmakers who, you know, had in some ways been under-served, underutilized. And you see what happens when you put them all together. You get just magic. And I think it's significant that, you know, we may never know exactly how he was faring over the last year of his life, but he definitely, whatever he was going through, made time to work with Spike Lee and Defy Bloods and George D. Wolf and Denzel, you know, by proxy in Maureenie's Black Box.

him and that was clearly a priority of his in his career. Yeah, I was kind of going through his IMDB the other day and he was just so intentional. Every single one of the roles that he was doing, you know, was something that you can't imagine anyone else getting made. He was trying to leverage his, his stardom to get projects made about African figures, about historical black figures. Like, every project that he took on had that kind of. social, political depth or balance to it.

So that was something that was really important to him. He clearly felt like he was on a mission. And it's tragic that we don't get to see where he would have gone. Yeah. And I know that we will get one more movie from him, but that Five Bloods performance now has like a spectral quality. I mean, he was already, for anybody who hasn't seen Five Bloods, I mean, it's pretty early in the film.

But he was, he already had a ghost-like quality in that film. he's talked about as a ghost by Delory Lindook's character, Paul. And it's an incredible performance, man. I mean, if you haven't gotten a chance to see it, if you haven't, if, you know, obviously kids who are into Black Panther are not, it's not quite, they're not ready for that movie,

but what a performance in Five Bloods, man. Yeah, no. And he was, he has kind of like a halo around him in that, in that story. And it says something about who he was as an actor and who the role he played. played in Hollywood that Spike thought of him for that role. And there are so many great actors in that movie,

but Chadwick was this kind of heroic figure. Yeah, there was a quote from Spike Lee, right? He's like, we're going to shoot him like Jesus and Superman, so who else he's going to get? Incredible. To stand in that light. So as I've been processing this over the weekend and thinking about just how, you know, it's unthinkable that he's gone,

that the other thought that kept following along with that, head is, I kind of can't believe we had him because it feels like, and forgive the hyperbole here, but do you remember, like, in the 90s, there are always these, there are always these, like, John Travolta is secretly an angel movies, you know, these messianic movies where someone like isn't of us and then is called back having done all this great work. I mean, it was like Michael or phenomenon or whatever. Right. It almost seems unreal. We knew nothing, we know nothing about his personal life because he kept that shut down. He didn't enter the national stage or conversation until his late 30s.

He delivered basically five masterpiece performances back to back to back to back. And then he's vanished. None of this seems plausible or real. And maybe that's why obviously the shock of it is the shock of it and the loss of it is the loss of it. But it does feel completely, all of it feels unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it's a testament to his character.

It's a testament to, I think. his upbringing as well and his in his family um because i know he was very close with with his family and he had two older brothers that he looked up to and that that inspired him um and i you know we'll see what comes out in the coming days and weeks and months but i love i hope we do get to hear more about about what he was going through and and yeah it would be i i just hope get the year more. Yeah, that would be really powerful if we got to get a little, not to be invasive or invaded his privacy and obviously he was a very private person. But I think that one of the things that you see occurring throughout these remembrances is just the utter disbelief,

you know, cancer has a tendency to, you know, almost erase the person, you know, while it's happening. And the fact that he was able to be so present and be so powerful in, while facing this disease is just unbelievable. And to give so much of himself throughout. You know, we see these footage of him visiting kids in hospitals and giving so much of his time when he knew that was an open question how much he had. Reggie, just as someone who met him, who's thought about him and, you know, continues to think about him. What do you think his legacy is or will be? Totally unfair question, obviously, so soon after his passing.

But just, you know, to help contextualize it for people who may be sort of struggling. Yeah, no, I think, you know, he embodied professionalism and resolve and, you know, dignity is the word that a lot of people have been using, including myself in that profile from last year. I mean, to have had that kind of run and to have gone out after Black Panther, I don't think, I don't know that there will ever be a run like that. And, you know, Hollywood has changed, as I was saying earlier, over the course of his career, and we're now in this era where there are more black, still not nearly close to parody, but there are more black storytellers, more black stories. And he was right there to usher it in with Black Panther, which completely changed the game in Hollywood. And so I think, you know, Chattelik will be synonymous with this era.

that we're living through, and we'll always have those films to go back and see, you know, the black excellence that he embodied. And before we let you go, Reggie, I have to ask, you said it at the beginning and it let off your profile that he told a man to cover his ass crack in a James Brown voice. Just you have to let us know. Did he do his James Brown voice for you in that moment to recreate it? I think he did a little bit. It wasn't like a full-on, but like a lower voice version of it.

But yeah, a lower decibel. You got a little piece of it. Yeah. No, that was, that really obviously made my day, made my year. Well, Reggie, man, thank you so much for joining us. And thanks so much for sharing your thoughts about this amazing performer. Thank you guys for having me. Really appreciate talking to you.

Thanks, Reggie. All right. Thanks so much to Reggie for joining us. And we'll send out links to his profile of chat. as well as his obituary and the 90s film directors article that Andy mentioned, all three great pieces. Andy, man, I don't know. Is there other stuff that you wanted to talk about with Chadwick?

I feel like, I know this is a little bit atypical for me because Dattington is your turf. But the first thing that I thought about were the children. Like I did literally think immediately. And, you know, our buddy Jason Gallagher, where he said, The Ringer, tweeted. something out about his son, his sort of favorite superhero was Black Panther and that like Chad with Bozeman did that, you know?

And I immediately, I usually don't think about stuff like this, but the first thing I thought about it was like, God damn, to be six, to be eight years old, to be 10 years old, and have this superhero that truly does feel of the moment and truly does feel like something new in the world and in a lot of ways could have a hand in introducing a lot of people to a lot of ideas that they maybe normally wouldn't have been introduced to

and also giving a lot of other people a symbol of power that they maybe weren't seeing before, definitely weren't seeing before this. And I just thought about that. I mean, aside from the obvious personal loss for Chowick and Chowick's family and the people who knew him and loved them, I just felt like that was where my mind first went. Absolutely. I think that the power of that performance and the impact is incalculable and astonishing. But maybe because of that, my perspective was a little bit reversed, which is to say we can and we could, and maybe we will again at a different podcast, talk about the loss. But I kind of was floored by what we had and what we got, which is to say like, and I mentioned

this in our conversation with Reggie. sort of just repeat myself. Like, I underrated that movie, Black Panther. You know, I watched it again this weekend. Obviously, I think we did like a full podcast talking about how incredible it was. So I don't think we were negative in any way. But the accomplishment, and particularly the accomplishment of that performance, is just staggering.

And so complete. You know what I mean? He gave the world not just a superhero, not just a black superhero, but an African King. You know, and I think the one thing about that movie when I watched it was he seems to be levitating above it in a way. He's almost like his vibranium suit. He's almost bulletproof, you know, to the point where when I was watching it at times, the first time I kept thinking, I had this like, that probably wasn't the only one, almost like pet theory that, you know, Ryan Coogler, as he wrote in his remembrance, when he got the assignment, Chadwick was precast.

like Chadwick was already in the role and they hadn't worked together. And I remember thinking, oh, I bet he wishes he could have cast Michael B. Jordan because they'd work together in Fruitvale Station and obviously Michael B. Jordan joined the film. And what a dumb comment by me or dumb thought. Because you need a superhero playing the superhero. You need someone who can embody the eye of the hurricane so that Michael B. Jordan can be 120 mile per hour gale force winds swirling around him, right? Yeah.

It is a, as much as it is a revolutionary performance, it is also like the epitome of a classic Hollywood leading man performance. And it feels, I mean, I'm not religious. It feels blessed, honestly, watching it now and thinking about what he gave us in that. And so, you know, obviously it would have been incredible to have more movies with him in that role or more movies with him, period. But that movie's not done teaching things to people and showing things to people. And unlike a lot of other superhero movies or big, you know, box off global box office successes, it isn't itself like the end point of years of franchise management or building or whatever.

It's just this incredibly rich text that can itself supply a generation of movies and ideas. You know what I mean? Like there can be a Kilmonger movie or a Shuri movie. or a Shuri movie or a Mbaku movie or a World of Wakanda movie to steal a title from a comic book that was published by Marvel. It's just a fully realized phenomenon on screen and also and off of it, right?

And that brings it all the way back to the reactions from kids, from, well, I mean, people all over the world, but particularly people of color for black people, black Americans, what this movie meant. And God, it's just titanic. And I personally just regret that I didn't have this perspective or couldn't take it in when he was alive. In some ways, it's like the dependability of that performance and the sure-handedness of it makes it easy to overlook it.

You know, I think that when you go back and watch it and it sucks to have this hindsight, you know, it's the same way I felt about watching Five Bloods this weekend and watching some of his other films like in clips and stuff. just to refresh my memory over the weekend, you know, everything changes when you look through these lenses of knowing that this person is gone. But with Tchala, and when you watch, when you watch Black Panther,

that's the part that feels like, like I said to Reggie, where it feels like it was already always there. It just feels like that was a superhero. That was a character who had been with you for 15, 20 years, that this was somebody that was his indelibly, indelibly printed into your consciousness like a Batman, like a Superman,

like a Spider-Man. It was just like, that's Black Panther. And that's the exact way you play that character. That's the exact way he talks. That's the way he interacts with his sister. That's the way he interacts with his significant other. That's the way he interacts with his mother. Everything about it felt perfectly calibrated. Absolutely.

And also, the other thing that I think we underrated in the context of the conversation that we always have, when Marvel movies come up is for every Russo brothers saying Captain America Civil War or Captain America Winter Soldier is the parallax view, right? Yeah. The director bullshit we talk about. Or taking it a step further how every Jurassic World movie is just Colin Trevor or whoever trying to, they're just making Jurassic Park or every new Star Wars movie. They're just trying to make Star Wars, right? Black Panther really is a bunch of people coming together and being like,

We're going to make Star Wars, but 1977 energy, right? Like, we're going to make this one for the next generation of people who make things. And some of my favorite things to read over this weekend were just the little details that mattered so much to those making it, and particularly mattered so much to the franchise, to the star who was, as we've now learned, battling cancer while making it. And so his understanding innately that everything they did mattered and would matter to people, right, from the accent he chose to the dialect they spoke, to making sure that he was in, this is in the Ryan Cougler piece, I think,

and in the Winston Duke remembrance, that he was in the final callback read-through auditions, right? Yeah, he was doing chemistry reads with so many people, yeah. So he met Winston Duke and then wrestled with him and was like, yep, this is going to work. And then he read with Latisha Wright, and she made him laugh immediately. Yeah.

And he was like, yep, I need my sister to make me laugh, you know, to be the quarterback on a team that was recruited, like Angela Bassett, Forrest Whitaker, and Sterling Brown being like, hey, guys, we need the Yankees, right? Like, we need the All-Star team to pull this off. Man, I just, I said this to Reggie, I'll say it to you again, you read about this and you don't believe it's real. And maybe it's because it's very 2020 or maybe because we're all cynical or everyone's lives are so extremely online or extremely public. But this feels otherworldly to me. This just doesn't feel real that he just emerged from playing chess and bedsteads.

die or something, played four of the most iconic roles in either in history, like IRL history, or now in cinematic history. Yeah. And then now he's gone. It's just, what a life. Yeah, it's unfathomable. And I think the shock of it still hasn't worn off. Thank you so much again to Reggie for joining us today.

We were really big fans of his work. So it was a real treat to get to talk to him, even if the circumstances, frankly, sucked. anyone you want to we didn't get a chance because last Thursday we didn't have room on the show but should we I want to hit I made a story's finale if you've yes we have time here you send me a text if you don't mind me pulling the curtain back where you were like I love it you were like essentially like I don't know if I'm smart enough to even discuss that finale well that was after I sent you a text saying oh my god this is this is a tough one because I was stressing watching it and then I just kept sending you pictures of Keith from prodigy

Yeah. No. It is definitely one of the most at once complete and messy. And I mean messy is 100% unambiguously as a compliment finale that I can remember a show pulling off. I don't know if there's a precedent for a show like this in this era because often when we have been talking about TV at the moment, It falls into, you know, roughly speaking, broadly speaking, into two camps.

There is hyper-personal, otorish shit. And then there's hyper-competent, here are the beats to hit TV. And we love both. And honestly, I think the very best things have enough of from Camp A and enough from Camp B to work, right? I don't know of any recent show that is so profoundly Camp A. I mean, it's just this is such a personal, such an aesthetic and artistic statement by Michaela Cole and coming out party from a major, major talent in front of the camera and behind the camera.

But I don't know of a show this personal and altruish that actually kind of tricked us, although trick is a pejorative word, that actually convinced us. also for long swaths of the show that we were watching not a buddy comedy, but like just a strip of society show. Do you know what I mean? Like there were episodes

where it was about the larger community or about the larger society and for her to grab control of her narrative literally and figuratively in the case of this finale and be like, this was, there's room for all of those things in my show for humor, for sadness,

for trauma, for violence, for shock. But ultimately, this is, I'm writing my way out of this in the most literal way possible to the point where she is note carding her own story, the way that writers do and particularly TV writers do. And those note cards are smeared

with blood. It was, I was floored by it. I mean, it was a challenging finale. It was easier once I began to realize the conceit she was using, which, you know, speaking to the autortish nature of it is not a conceit that it existed in any other episode that we would be seeing.

different versions of the truth, but it was a packed a wallop. I love the fact, you know, I hate to ramp Lonesome Dove in relation. You don't hate to. You don't hate to. People have it read it, but one of the things that I love so much about Lonesome Dove is the fact that it communicates ideas through style and story. Like rather than being on Front Street with characters saying, you know, I don't want to be a bad man.

I mean, that's bad television writing. but I feel like so much of what Lonesome Dove does is communicate the themes of the story through the actions and the characters rather than through authorial statements. And the way Michael Cole threaded the needle by being able to have these characters talk about ideas, but talk about them naturally within the day-to-day

goings on of their life, was so revelatory to see how, happen. I think that ultimately what this show did is what the best TV does, which is it creates a world that has its own logic. And that's Twin Peaks. You know, that's Madman. That's Fargo. That's Fleabag. It's like the logic is that she can turn to you and talk to you. And I may destroy you, the logic is, is that this person is, like you said, writing through trauma and fashioning not a resolution per se but another chapter and she is finishing one and she is opening another for herself and yeah I just thought

there was these little I think there are these little like I imagine this script or this episode as a handwritten and there are little parts of the handwriting that where you're like oh I wonder is that intentional

is this intentional this little flick of the pen the way this letter curls because like you know my wife and I were watching it And we were like, that last shot of the bookstore has that weird reflective nature of the book, the upside down. And it makes you ask all sorts of questions about your own perception of what's happening

and her perception of what's happening. What is really happening? But at the end, I wasn't thinking about it in terms of, did you land the plane? Did this all make sense? Did you answer every question you asked? Because the show transcended all that stuff. Yeah. I think it's probably worth noting just also contextually.

are at a moment culturally, societally, and critically, where just the primalist primal Yelp version of this show would be, would receive an enormous positive response and should. But what I keep coming back to is how it's so, it's that in totally and entirely, as you're saying, but it's also, it also backs it. up. It has all of the goods. It's not just Michaela Cole

reclaiming the narrative or claiming the screen. It's these little things like Kwame has not just one arc, but multiple character arcs and relationships and flaws and foibles. And she's planning it. She's note-carding it, perhaps,

to the degree where all of where his stories are wrapped up appropriately in time to clear the stage for her. You know, that seems like a simple thing, but like, in my experience, the hardest part of TV writing is just pacing and where do you put the stuff? Yeah. And if you have A and B plots, when does the B plot see to the A plot, right? Without feeling like you were just wasting time with it or that you've pushed it off

stage too soon because there was actually more there. It's just this little like craftsmanship part that she brings to. I mean, she's the total package. And I texted you, I didn't know if I was smart enough to understand it. That is how I felt at first because I was so dazzled. I also, the more I thought about it afterwards, I was really moved by the fact that where she ended up, and this is my interpretation of it, was that there ultimately was no satisfying answer or conclusion to her personal sexual assault. there were just versions of it and processing. And did any of those things happen?

I mean, it's a TV show. That's what I love about it. No, none of this happened. It's a fictional TV show. For the purposes of the character of Arabella, did any of those things happen? Maybe bits and pieces. The real issue, what the show is really about,

was the reemergence, or maybe for the first time, the emergence of a fully aware, I guess, fully present Arabella, right? who has, I mean, this is the sign of a great work where you're like, it's so complicated, it's so rich, it's so difficult to parse. And then you can also say, well, she turned her pain into something else. Like, you can almost reduce it down into something simple. She comes out on the other side of the algorithm too, right?

Like the moment of clarity comes at this moment of sort of returning to nature, as it were. I mean, in this brick backyard with Ben, who is alive and is not a ghost and is not. Definitely not a ghost. 100% a real person. And yeah, I think that that is the piece that she finds on the other side of this is the really only needing to be comfortable with yourself, which is the hardest thing to do these days. Can we also just say, what the fuck, England?

Like, why are all the good actors there? We used to say this in the 90s about bands. Like, there aren't that many people there. And a lot of the people there are in one place. They're in London, right? And you just look at the bench on this show. Like, remember Simon from the first two episodes? Yeah.

Great, great actor. Couldn't love to see him again in something. He's just there. The woman who Kwame has his disastrous date with, you know, I Google her name. Oh, she went to the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts, too. You know, she's probably could just casually crush Shakespeare on her off days. leading up to this guy who plays her attacker. Yeah.

In the last episode is given the opportunity to play some of the most extreme scenes that any actor could be called on to play and delivers. I mean, it's amazing. And that's also the sign of a good show where, like, you mentioned Fleabag. It's like, okay, everyone in this show should be in all the shows now. And that's how I feel about this one. Yeah, and I just want to also say, because I think when we talk about this show, it can very easily slip into

not hyperbolic praise but a praise about stuff that's happening almost as a result of the show rather than the show itself and this fucking thing still delivers moments like the fire starter moment or moments like the several

interactions that she has with Terry in the bathroom you know where you're just like hair on my arm standing up or they're really going for it and I will remember this music drop and this performance in this moment for years to come. And that's what's great.

You build off of the foundation of really good fucking show. And then also the added bonuses, it makes you think about a ton of stuff that you absolutely should be thinking about. So last two things on, I May Destroy You, one is, I know that people tune into this podcast

for just the deep insider stuff. You know what I mean? Just like reporting live from the lot. If you are one of those people, I don't know, I don't know how many of you guys are out there that fit this category. But maybe you're one of those people

who listen to us, even though you don't watch the shows. Odd, particularly since we've done 12 segments on the show, but I get it. If you are, and for some reason on the fence, if you care about the industry and where it's going, you should watch the show for that.

You should watch it for all the other artistic reasons we've talking about, but every conversation I've had with anyone. And I'm not saying I'm Joe Hollywood or even Bob Netflix, but I'm saying casual conversations with friends or work conversations with executives.

This is the show. Bob Netflix looks at Bob Chepeck and Bob Eager and he's like, soon I will have my day. Soon I'm my day. He's like, who's secretly the biggest Bob? This is the show everyone's talking about. This is the one. This is the one that all shows are going to be

either compared to or considered next to. And when I say compared to, you kind of can't compare it because it's very unique and unique to Michaela Cole. But I've already had one conversation about something where someone was like, this other thing that's being talked about.

Are you sure we need it in a world where I may destroy you did that? So, you know, it's kind of like, can I make a sports analogy? Because I don't do it very much. But if there's a team like the Warriors that are shooting threes like that, right? And you come in, let's say you just sign a lot of tall people and they don't know how to play together. Like maybe someone's favorite team did, they don't shoot threes. but they're like, no, no, we're just going to, we're going to do this thing that no one else is doing that doesn't work anymore and looks foolish next to the thing that works. You don't want to be the Sixers in this analogy, Hollywood.

If the Warriors are out there, you don't want to be the Sixers. Last thing. What's next, do you think, Chris? Like, do you feel, we don't know anything, Michaela Cole obviously is the toast of the town could do whatever she wants next? Do you think there's more of this show? Do you think that that is a good plan? Would that surprise you if there were more of this specific show? I think that in terms of what this story was about, the I May Destroy You story was about,

I think that she said what she had to say. That's just my guess. I mean, obviously, what she's done, though, is created a place in which these stories can be told. So I would imagine, or I would hope, that at some point, maybe nine months from now and maybe nine years from now, she does what great,

the British television system is somehow figured out how to do, which is, yeah, we'll hit it on the flip side. We'll come back to it. You know, like, in three years, if she wants to make six more, I may destroy you, that it's about where Terry, Kwame, and Arabella are now, and maybe it's about something else.

Maybe it's not about trauma. Maybe it's about a lot of the other themes that they were talking about. Maybe it's about how these characters feel about getting older. But I don't necessarily feel like I need S2, June 2021. Yeah, it's, this seems to me, I agree.

I would love to see this friend group again. I'd love to see this version of London again. But based on everything she said in interviews and based on what she's done so far in her career, it does seem like Michaela Cole as a creator is the brand. And she will regroup or maybe not take much time to regroup and think about what she wants to do next. And she'll do it in whatever box that is meant to be in, whether it's another half hour series, hour series, movie, whatever, that seems likely. And I think that she's earned, I mean, she earned Phoebe,

Waller Bridge, right? Like, maybe their most, at least up to this point, most popular thing might be over. But whatever they do next, people are going to be checking for it. Yeah, the vibe is with the show is what I want more of. Like, I want more of this London, and I want more of these people, but I don't necessarily need

a fabricated version of this is why they're all, the three of them are together again today. I mean, every episode had that driving force of taking care of Arabella. That's why the three of them kept congregating all the time, even if sometimes they were kind of like distracted by their phones and by their lives. Andy, let's, uh, let's move on.

So I made a story of you great show, the belt, and probably the show of the year. Do you want to do any intro for, for Brandon here? Just to say, we haven't talked about it. You and I on the podcast, but I definitely went out on Front Street on Twitter and I stand by it. I think that the killer's new album, imploding the Mirage is the best album they've ever made. Um, I just think it's incredible record. Um, a total.

gift in a awful year. And when I say their best record, I'm not trying to be like needlessly hyperbolic. What I mean is, yeah, like Mr. Brightside and when you were young are the types of songs that you don't get to do once in your career, let alone twice. Those songs are better than, you know, new songs. But as a track by track, no skips statement album, this record just floored me. And so this is Brandon's third time on the pod, which is nice. chasing Manzukas.

That's going to be the name of Brandon Flowers' memoir is going to be called Chasing Mansuchas. Or what's up, Jkey J? Like he's breathing down his neck. Anyway, all that's to say, this is not a, my journalistic bias is showing in this interview because I love the record

and I love talking to Brandon. It was great to check in with him. Obviously, he and the band were supposed to be on a chest thumping world tour right now and nobody can do that. So instead he's at home in Utah. beautiful wood ceilings, by the way, and already making plans to record another record. That's great.

It's really fun. Is he, is it solo stuff? Or is it like he going to bring everything under Killers Industries now? He's making another killer's record. Like, it's just, it's working right now. He's these great producers that he worked with, a guy who's worked a lot with war on drugs and one half of the band, Foxygen. And, you know, you mentioned Lonesome Dove once gratuitously, so I will too.

Like, our brand for no. reason that I can think of has definitely become older guys beaten the odds. And so saddle up. We didn't have a meeting about that. That's just your It just feels right. Saddle up and, you know, enjoy this conversation with Brandon Flowers

of the band The Killers. All right. Thanks so much. And we'll be into that interview after a quick break from our sponsors and we'll talk to you guys on Thursday. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Blue Moon. Don't you think once in a Blue Moon moments should happen more than once in a blue moon.

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Blue Moon, reach for the moon. Celebrate Responsibly. Blue Moon Brewing Company, Golden Colorado. I'm so happy to welcome back for the third time, although second as a solo guest, the lead singer of The Killers, whose new album, a phenomenal new album, Imploding the Mirage is available now in places where you can buy in stream music. Brandon Flowers, live from home, welcome. How's it going? It's going great.

I am so excited to talk to you because I think, and I hope you're ready for the heat on this take, I think imploding the Mirage is the best album you guys have ever made. I appreciate that. that commentary. You know, when you make an album, you always think it's the best thing that you've ever done. I tend to think that about records.

And I think, you know, you've got to have a certain amount of excitement and confidence in yourself to let other people hear it. And so it makes sense, you know? I saw Tanya, you know, Tanya Tucker. Uh-huh. She actually went to same high school

as my parents. Anyway, she recently, you know, put out a great record. And she said, it makes sense, you know, like I've put in a lot of work, and I've gotten older, and I'm better. And so I feel like that makes sense, you know, when it comes to us too. I think it absolutely does. And when I've said this to people, what I was trying to communicate, and this might not make as much sense to younger people who live in like a streaming music brain economy and culture. But like, when I say that, I'm not trying to be like controversial or try to like win the internet. I'm not saying that, you know, when you were young isn't like one of the

best songs ever. I'm saying that as an album, track for track, this feels like such a rich and complete and thrilling statement. And to do that 19 years into your career, who does that? I don't know. You know, it's, well, it's nice that you're picking up on the, on the statement. You know, that was something that we talked about and that we were concerned with, with, you know, really following through. We had this idea and we had this record cover and we wanted to capture what it was saying and make a snapshot of what I was going through and see this through, even if that meant cutting songs that were great.

And we'd never really done that before. It's not easy to do. But yeah, but we're really happy with the outcome. When we've talked before, we talked about, you know, falling in love with bands and falling in love with not just the music, but the aesthetic and, you know, the record covers and pouring over them and what they mean. And so it's really cool to hear how much that played into this because from the minute caution dropped, there's artwork that is communicating something. And then each single had artwork that was communicating something. And please remind me the name of the artist. But Thomas Blackshear.

Thomas Blackshear is art across all of the singles and then the album. When you say we had this idea, what was this idea? Or was it more to just communicate one consistent statement? I think it was, yeah, no, it was about two people becoming eternal, two people becoming one, two people persevering and needing each other to get, to be complete, I guess. You know, I started to think about what it meant to be an adult and what it meant to be a husband And I came to the conclusion that it's not enough just to be over 21 and have a job or whatever it was and be independent. There was something more to it.

And so I wanted to capture that, at least in the only reference I have is, you know, my parents and my wife in my life in my life now and, you know, my observations, I guess. Well, I have a bunch of questions about the actual process of making the album, but I'm going to skip them for now because you brought up this idea of the theme, which really resonated with me as someone who is not a young guy anymore and someone who is married and has kids. And I was thinking back to a hallmark of earlier killer songs. We mentioned one, like when you were young. Often you would take on the voice of an older person when you yourself, you were not an older person. you know, when you were young or runaways, narrating the lives of people who maybe were models in your own life or in your own town growing up, looking back on decisions made. And I wonder, before we even get into the decisions behind this album, have you ever thought, like, thought about why it was that you were fast-forwarding your own youth?

What was it about older people and their stories that you found so compelling when you, yourself were, you know, in your 20s? Yeah. No, that's probably, I never thought of it like that. I think maybe I'm the youngest of six kids. So I watched, there's a big age gap. I was a surprise for sure. I remember my friends,

my friends live two houses up, Kenny and Kevin. And their mom surely would jokingly call me surprise and their dad would chime in and say, that's a nice way of saying you were a mistake. And I was like trying to wrap my head around that. I was like eight years old. But yeah, I have a sister that's 17 years older than me. So by the time I was, you know, with it enough to observe what was going on, there were people, you know, my sisters were and brother were living these, you know, becoming adults and having kids.

And I was watching these lives unfold and watching decisions that people were making and comments. consequences, good or bad, and all of that kind of stuff. And I think that that's just always been something there for me to absorb. Did you feel in any way, like, hemmed in by that, by the paths that you saw laid out before you? Because there's an undercurrent, certainly on this album, but in others, too, of kind of old-fashioned values. And I don't mean that pejoratively. I think these are, they're old-fashioned for a reason. But just, you know, ideas of being strong and working hard.

You think about the lyrics and dying breed about not compromising being a diehard, being a lifeguard. If those ideals were being modeled for you by these incredibly old siblings, but also other family members, what was your relationship to values like that when you were just a kid listening to Fay Britpop? I mean, it feels like a traditional response to it might be like, no thank you, I'm going to escape and live life like this instead. Yeah. I think it just, I was, I think having the, you know, there's the big component for me that people always talk about and it's, there's a reason. It's the religious side.

And just what comes with that is a lot of those old-fashioned values are sort of inextricably, you know, linked to that kind of stuff. So that and with, I just think the way that my dad treated my mom and the way that their, that their relationship was, you know, it just had. a big impact on me, I think. You mentioned religion. I was going to say, there's a couple times in this album, and you've done it before, but it feels like you're

embracing a preacher's cadence a couple times, the chorus of fire and bone my God almost entirely. That is kind of thrilling. I mean, those are high points on the album, and it does feel like it's a it's not that you're taking on a character,

but you are claiming something that maybe was part of your history. Yeah, I think you know, in the early days, I was not sure how that was going to fit in. Because, you know, I've talked about it before. We're getting away from it now, but when we started, it was still full on, you know, the debauchery and the, you know, the rock and roll lifestyle and all that stuff was in full swing and putting it up on a pedestal and there was nobody naysaying it in 2003 or whatever and so it's changed a lot and so I struggled with it in the beginning just just

you know it seemed like oh is that what made you authentic you know was it was drug youth and and taking advantage of people you know women and things like that is that was that what made you know artists authentic and and and and I didn't feel like I fit into that and and so yeah, so it's become easier as time has changed and just as if I've become more comfortable in my own skin to kind of fall into that role. Not the debauchress role. No, I mean, I think we joked about this. The first time we talked, I think we joked about this, but the times that like, you know,

our old friend Sarah Lewin would like take you guys to miss shapes and there are these pictures of you guys standing outside in the line looking like, what did we just get into? What is this world? And how do we fit into it? Which is how many of us there felt as well. And luckily we all survived. But specifically what I found so striking and honestly really moving about this album was the kind of embrace of those features that have always been part of you clearly and part of your songwriting.

But the theme in some of the great killers tracks, like I said before, is often felt like escape, escape from certain responsibilities or the allure of escape. And there's something that happens, particularly in the last three songs, of this record, which to me are kind of the heart of it where it really comes together, where there's kind of an ecstatic surrender, but it's a surrender into a kind of commitment

that feels almost like the inverse of escaping to the open road or whatever was lurking just outside of the city lights on previous albums. You know, there are these songs like, these lyrics like, you know, we say control is overrated in my God and the theme that's introduced in that last trilogy of like,

the mirage in my god that then gets spoiler alert it gets imploded in the title track um did you feel like your songwriting reached a different place with that kind of acceptance yeah and just i just the more i work and the more i get in and accept who i am i think the better the writing has gotten and the easier it's gotten and so yeah the going back to just that that that cohesive statement that we kept, you know, wanting to make. And it really influenced the lyrics. And, yeah, part of it was me accepting the path. You know, I think a lot of times it's about that fork in the road or whatever.

And I'm past that, I think, at this point, I've kind of chosen my path. And so that's exciting for me, really. Well, just purely as a fan and as a psychological observer, it feels like the path you chose was right down the middle of those two forks in a healthy way. Because there are songs in the Killers catalog that embrace, sometimes the goofiness, the fun, the performance of bands that I know you're a fan of and of Vegas that raised you. We were talking about Space Man before. And then there are songs that are incredibly heartfelt. And what I love about, especially, again, these last three songs, is that you found a way to synthesize them. You know, the fact that you can have this beautiful statement and when the dreams run dry and then that the album ends with imploding the mirage, which is completely heartfelt and genuine, but fun.

Not funny, but fun. There's a looseness to it that is really exhilarating. Yeah. I think bands like whoever is, whether it's the kinks or XTC or, you know, that were able to be playful, you know, it's nice to be able to use those influences and, yeah, and like you said,

I think there's a strange marriage of my vulnerability or, you know, with the playfulness kind of works nicely on that outro, that record. there's also um this also might just be my own obsessive fandom talking but you have one of my great heroes lindsay buckingham on the record just shredding in a way that only he can but i don't know if your fandom with his like solo stuff runs as deep as mind does but the thing about him that i've always found so inspiring is he's still pushing you know he's he's 70 and he's still doing the most gonzo experimental stuff when he's by himself and respecting the arenas that he's

going to play and the songs that they're expected to be heard from him when he plays them. And he seems to have made a career out of that. He's never, he's never stopped pushing. Yeah, those are the guys that really give us a lot of hope and that, you know, give you something to aspire to. It's crazy that there are a lot, that there are people like that they're alive. I was just driving back from breakfast with my kids. And we played, they love Lyndon Arden Ardenstall the highlights from Van Morrison. And then I played Joker Man after and they're like, you know, asking about Van Morrison and Bob Dylan, it's like, these guys are a lot. It's crazy.

They're like, they're like mythological beings. It's like, they're alive. They're still here. And it's pretty wild. But yeah, Lindsay's one of, he's on that list for sure. When you can just come in and just be like, okay, this makes sense to me. You know, it's not like you had to cater the song from what I read about the creation of it. The song was written right.

And then you were like, please come in and play on it. Yeah. And he sort of, you know, helped fortify what I was saying in the lyrics. And, oh, it's just so, it's, his, the solo just sings, you know, you can sing it. Like, you know, I always talk about slashes, solos like that. But, you know, this is up there with some of the, I really, I really love the solo. I used to. And it's only he can play like that.

I did want to talk about this idea of, like, surviving and what it means to have a longer career. Because I was thinking about it, and I think I've decided that rock bands are the opposite of Batman. Because if you remember, in the movie, movie the dark night, they say you could either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain. I feel like the honest thing is the reverse, because you guys have survived and thrived long enough to become heroes, right? I mean, one of the, I imagine, this is gratifying as a fan, but I imagine it's even more gratifying as actually the artist to be at a place where the next generation are fans, you know, and have been inspired by you, I want to talk to you.

I was reading the interview you did with Phoebe Bridgers, you know, who's a, a whole, 15 years younger than you and grew up with your songs and now you can talk like peers. I mean, that has to be gratifying. Yeah, no, it feels good. I mean, it feels good. I don't think anybody saw that coming when Hot Fuzz came out. You know, it's a hell of a debut. But I think people saw us as coming in on the coattails of, you know, the strokes of Franz Ferdinand and things like that.

So it's kind of crazy how it's all played out. But, yeah, no, I mean, we're happy to be. You know, in the conversation still. And it's, you know, I've just taken it as it comes, I guess. But did you see it coming? I guess I wonder, because for us, when we get an album every few years, or I get the, you know, I get the chance to talk to you every few years, it's easy for us to decide, like, the demarcations of your career or what things meant.

But when you look back, like, was there a specific moment that you can point to where it went from being like, oh, my God, my dreams are coming true. What a rush to this is my career now. This is going to be my job as an adult. I guess it would have been, you know, I don't know. I didn't feel, I never, I didn't feel really comfortable on stage to like fourth record or something like that. You know, as much as I wanted to act like I really belonged up there, I know I was always felt inadequate.

But then at the same time, I, I, You know, when I was, you know, when I was little, I felt like I was special, too. You know, so there's like, there's just all this stuff coming at you all the time. And you just, I guess it's just how you, you know, we just persevered, kept working. Yeah. But in the last few years, was there, was there a moment because, a moment where you sort of had to figure out what it would mean to be the killers now? And I asked specifically because of two things.

One, you know, you've had a successful, really creatively successful solo career in between Killers Records. You know, I still will go to the mountaintop and use your preacher voice to talk about desired effect, which is a masterpiece. And, you know, you've dealt with sort of shifting sands within the band as members have stepped away, come back, stepped away again. Was there a sort of reckoning like, what does it mean to be the killers now? Yeah, you want to, you know, there's a certain, there's something people I think expect from us. And we don't have to oblige them, you know, we don't have to. But, you know, we are people pleasers. And some of that, some of the inflectations I think that people have for us are just a part of us.

And it's not going to, you can't extract it. And so we're lucky in that regard. and so whether someone, you know, is taking a break or is all in or whatever it is, I think there's still, we still have a lot that we, or at least we have a certain bar that we want to, you know, get to when we make a record and we're not going to, you know, put it out there unless we feel like we've achieved that. How much of the Killers experience album by album in your mind is determined by the partners, collaborators that you bring in. Sean Everett and Jonathan Rado produced this record with you guys. And it seems just as I said, I love this album.

It seemed like a really successful collaboration. How much effect does that have just in terms of setting the mood, setting the vibe, making the album what it is? I think it can be, it can have a huge impact. Strangely, we've never

had the same producer on two records. Right. And that's a weird and we're going to make the next record with Raido and Sean. And so it's going to be the first time we've made two consecutive records with the same producers. But I've learned from every producer, good or bad, but mostly good stuff. You know, you try to learn from them.

But they have a definite, they can't help but have an influence on the record, I think. First album was largely, you know, self-produced. We had an engineer who was a lawyer previously. he was Green Day's lawyer. And he was just like, his whole thing was just like, that was fine. That was a good thing. Like move on. And so we made it fast and the songs were good.

And then the second record flood and Mulder, you know, these two iconic names and music, heavy hitters that I think they made us, they were still, they were still hungry. And they were still willing to go in and climb the mountain when we made Samstown. And that's not something you get out of people that have done what they had done at that point. A lot of people just kind of, you know, dial it in or whatever. And so that was an awesome experience working with them, and we learned a lot from them. I'm I can keep going through the list. But, you know, you just try to take what you can from, you know, what worked from these producers

and apply it to what you do in the future. Well, I always think about it in terms of you, you as a songwriter as an artist. I was talking about this with a friend who's a big fan the other day. And I was referring to you as a vibe surfer, an elite. vibe surfer, meaning like you could pick up these vibes that maybe are musical, they may be contextual, they may be nostalgic, and communicate them to us through this new song. But that is as vague as it sounds when I'm describing it, I can't imagine how hard that is when you're actually in the studio working, you know, to be able to synthesize the things that you want without

making it, without tipping it too far in one direction or the other. You know, when we first talked, I was, we spoke about how there's this piano part on your solo record and you got Bruce Hornsby to play the Bruce Hornsby piano part, you know, but in a modern contemporary song. With this, I wonder how you know you're collaborating on the right level. The example I wanted to use in this question was with Dying Breed, which is, I mean, that's just a great killer song. But also, it has a loop from Noia now in the beginning undergirding the first like two and a half minutes of it before it explodes into the song we've been waiting for. that's tricky yeah it's not you know

it's always a little bit it was a little bit uncomfortable when Sean brought Sean stuck that on that sample on and um the song was already good before that yeah but it was uh you know we all it was undeniable that

you know it rose a little bit when he brought it in and we were you know we went through the all these different emotions do we replay it Do we just get permission, you know, and try to figure that out and, you know, we ended up going with the actual sample and, you know, giving them credit and all that. But yeah, no, I mean, you just have to rely on these guys. And Sean is always looking, you know, for just for a little, a strange edge. It would never be a normal edge.

It would be, you know, an off-kilter edge. and so we love him in the studio for sure. And then Rado, I always say he's just such a purist. If he could do it, there would be no pro tools. You know, it would be on tape. So you just got these two worlds colliding with those two, but we all get along and it's great. I just think it's really exciting because you could point to the quality of the songwriting

and say like this is a sign of your growth and your confidence, but I think you could also point to the riskiness of the collaborations because if you weren't confident in the songs, you wouldn't do that, right? You wouldn't allow them to be opened up and fiddled with or we're going to bring in Waysblood or we're going to put a sample on this track, et cetera, et cetera. That takes some confidence as well. Yeah, I think that's come with just with experience and just going back to it, you know, every day and, you know, taking cues from people that are really good at it.

Tom Petty, people like that. I mean, Tom Petty is someone who I think about and listen to all the time, but I was also trying to think about when he went from being the guy who only made good songs that was on MTV to, oh my God, this is the most unimpeachable catalog of the last 30 years guy. It didn't happen in the moment, right? It was suddenly we looked up and it was nothing but gold. And that's kind of unprecedented. It's weird.

It's like in the 90s, he was still so good and putting out great stuff. And it wasn't until, I guess, what would you just probably? About 10 years ago, I think people started to really see it. And like all of a sudden it just became this, yeah, it just came into view what he had done and accomplished. And it's like the, it's like the Beatles. It's like maybe more impressive than the Beatles. It's crazy what he did. Because as you said, he was an MTV fixture well into the like,

the late 90s, older than everyone else who was on the network. And so he's a legacy act for two distinct generations. But I was also thinking of, I know that you were in other interviews you've talked about him, and specifically in reference to blowback, which has a little petty vibe in it. But I was thinking about, like, loving Tom Petty, but never thinking about him the way I thought about artists whose lyrics I poured over, you know, he was just a great songwriter. And then all of a sudden, he just drops wildflowers. And it's like, oh, he can actually also write these incredibly intimate and powerful love songs.

And, you know, I, though I adore your album, I'm not asking you to say is imploding the mirage as good as wildflowers. We'll talk again in 20, 30 years. But I wonder if there was something similar there, just in terms of the level of emotional honesty that you can feel more comfortable with later in your career or later in your life. yeah i think it just it comes with i think what i talked about earlier just being comfortable in with who i am and the and the path that i've chosen and realizing that that's where that honesty and that and you know being able to put that down onto the record is more gratifying for me um and that's you know and those are the roads that i want to pursue and i think it just translates with people who are interested, you know, who are interested in lyrics and who are

interested in that craft. Because, you know, some people just don't. Some people just, I can't wrap my head around it, but some people just aren't lyric people. No. And, you know, I think when you say that, I think about how like, you know, you're probably for the rest of your life, your biggest song, Mr. Brightside. It's like 16 years after it came out, people were like, did everybody notice he just repeats the first verse?

But everybody loves that song? so much. Nobody cares about that because the song is so good. Yeah, it's funny. Sorry, now what I'm thinking about Mr. Brightside instead of my next question. Okay, so which is not a bad place to be. So you spoke about how you had this group, this set of songs and where you are in your life. And you're speaking to you now from, I imagine, from your home in Utah now. So you moved there with your family. You live there. Where you are in your life inspired this incredible set of songs which were written and recorded and put out into the world, and then you were going to be away from your home for a year performing them.

In the last few months, your home transitioned from being the inspiration and bedrock of the new album to just a place where you spend all of your time in your new life as Stay-at-Home Dad. How has that transition been for you? It's been nice. When we're off tour, some people have, you know, I mean, I can't speak for too many people, but I know some, you know, it's kind of a thing for people to struggle with kind of coming down

and what their life is like, you know, without, you know, having a gig that night or flying somewhere or the parties and all of that stuff. And so, you know, once we had kids, when I come home, I just, you know, fully commit to being at home. So it's kind of something I transitioned to fairly easily. and I feel a little guilty. You know, I know I'm in a lucky, you know, place in this life.

And so I haven't had to worry. And my heart goes out to people whose, you know, livelihoods have been affected by what's going on. But, yeah, I've just, I'm kind of taken advantage of it. And I heard, I guess this news broke earlier this week that you're saying actively, you're just going to make another record now? that really the plan? Yeah. It's making me rethink my life.

You know, because usually I go on tour after we make a record and you get to this point where you're in this writing routine. And then you promote it and you go tour per a year

or sometimes a year and a half in our case. And I kind of stop. You know, I try to ride on the road, but it's not the same. And it was interesting I have a side story about that. Can I tell you that really quick? Of course.

First album, we're playing outside lands, I think it's called. And we're playing with Arcade Fire. And we both had our first, you know, first albums come out. And they were just this formidable presence on stage. There's like a dozen of them. Yeah, so there's like all these people and they have this huge sound. And it's their first, you know, it's like the first album. Like, who has, who's this fully realized like that, you know?

And we felt like we were pretty good, but it's like, how do you play after that? And we're playing after them. But I saw Wynn. It was one of the, I think it was the first time I met Wynn. And we were backstage and he brought this portable keyboard up to me and was showing me these, like, little ideas that they had. And I had not considered what the next album was going to be or what we were doing. And I realized, Wynn is thinking about the next. one. And that, I mean, dramatically, you know, it impacted my life. And I hadn't thought about it

until recently, but I shortly after just got a portable keyboard and I always have a portable keyboard with me now because of that. So what was I talking about? And so, yes, it made me think about yeah, so you try to ride on the road. And subsequently, we wrote things, I think we wrote bones on the road, which made it onto Samstown. And we wrote human while we were touring Samstown. We wrote runaways while we were touring day and age. So it ended up having a pretty impact on me, that talk with wind. But it just keeps me going back to the piano and to the studio. and having not going on tour, I'm in there a lot more than I normally would be. And it was really kind of mind-boggling how the songs are coming.

And I'm thankful for it, but it's also making me realize how many have I missed out on while I'm out there on the road. Do you feel that they're coming in a way that they are grouped thematically, like Mirage? Yeah, too soon to say. It's crazy. I had this song going called Boy, and I was tapped into being an adolescent in this small town that I grew up in Utah. And I just, now when I touch a keyboard, I go there.

And I go, and so I've got 15 songs that are just, they just, they live there. And it's, I've never had such, have it be so, it feels, it feels almost easy. and it's I'm just so I just want to keep going I just want to keep getting it I just want to get it and not let it get away from me right now yeah I don't want to ask any more questions because I don't want to mess with it I think that sounds so pure that's amazing

I'll let you go in a moment I did have to ask so one of the things that I love also about the new record is the title is a beautiful image it produced a great song but it's also produced a lot of questions and I think but I I feel very confident that it is both a beautiful image

because you've introduced mirages in my god, for example. The character is not living in a fantasy life anymore. But also, there is a casino called the mirage. That's right. And when you destroy a building, you implode them, right? That's right, yeah. In Vegas, that's what you do.

You implode. Okay, so good, okay. So it's a nice, so it's got a double, yeah, most people see it the other way first. They're just like, oh, what are they saying? It's just an floating hotel in Las Vegas. They don't see the other side of it. You saw the other side of first, yeah.

Well, I like that, like we were saying, where you sort of synthesize both sides of yourself, I like that it's both. And maybe the only reason I saw the other side first, and by the way, for people listening, The Mirage has not been imploded. They did just reopen their erupting volcano yesterday. So congratulations to everyone at the Mirage.

You're safe. but I was thinking about one of the most to my mind iconic interview answers ever given and it's by you when someone asked you in great flowery language about the song Neon Tiger, great song on day and age about what it meant in the imagery and your response. Maybe it was edited, but as printed, your response was

no, that's a song about a tiger. They have these, you can still, I think you can still go to the mirage. I took my kids in their little, to go see the white tigers, yeah. At the mirage. Yeah, it's at the mirage. But yeah, so there's so much, you know, it gives us a lot of permission and

license to do things being from Las Vegas. And I think that's made us what we are as performers, which has given us so much. You know, it's a big part of our identity now, you know, is what a live, what the live shows have become. But yeah, it's nice to keep those. threads alive. I am really grateful for this album during this time,

and I'm doubly grateful if there's going to be a new album because of this awful time. But just to finish up, I have to ask, what is that first show back going to be like for you? What is that going to feel like for everybody? I listened to, I listened to Dying Breed yesterday, and I was, because we were batting around ideas of what's the first song that would play, you know,

was it to be my own soul? warning or dying breed, you know, when we were going to open this tour. Ronnie votes for dying breed. I vote for my own souls warning, but then I had dying breed on and I imagined it. And I just imagined seeing that first verse. And just, it's, I get it's so emotional thinking about it. It's just so, you know, we're taking for granted these things that it just seems so commonplace that, oh yeah, I'm going to go, going to go to a concert. I'm going to go to a movie. I'm going to go to a restaurant. I'm going to go, I'm going to go to school. I'm going to, you know, just regular things. And for me,

you know, even more so just thinking that I'm so lucky to just be able to go and have these huge experiences with so many people. And to have it taken away has, you know, it's starting to affect me and make me, though, appreciate the times that I have had with it more. And I'm going to, you know, I can't, I just can't wait to get out there again. God, that makes me excited too. We'll leave it at that. Brandon, congratulations on this record.

And thank you for always taking the time to talk. It's such a pleasure. Be well. Stay safe. Don't lose this vibe. Don't let go of this third rail. I'm going to do it. I'm going to follow it through. Awesome. Stay safe, be well, and best to your family. Thanks, man.