The Watch - Remembering David Lynch, ‘Severance’ Season 2 Anticipation, ‘The Pitt,’ and ‘American Primeval’

Episode Date: January 16, 2025

Chris and Andy talk about whether or not ‘Severance’ season two is poised to be the next big water cooler show (1:00) and take a moment to remember the director David Lynch, who passed away this week, and his profound impact on tv and film (16:21). Then they talk about the trailer for ‘Daredevil: Born Again’ (24:33), the first two episodes of ‘The Pitt’ (32:10) and the first episode of ‘American Primeval’ (56:54). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me in the studio, much like Joelle Ambide, he is day to day. It's Andy Greenwald.

Does it feel better to own your pain like that? You know, because I flinched when you said that a little bit. Oh, yeah. This Sixers season, I can't. You are. checked out. I am beyond. Yeah, you don't even know that, like, our Prince Tyrese Maxie is having, like, a real, like, come-down season. Oh, I'm aware. Yeah. It's like me on a Sunday in 2007. Oh. You know what I mean? That low. Greenwald, I wanted to start with an apology. Oh, okay. I had one for you, too. This is good. On Monday, we were at C.

You know, we were, we were coming to people, and we were a little bit, a little bit off our game. It was a rough week. And, uh, I, made a mistake that I've been carrying with me all week. And I said that in Nicholas Wending Refins, Seminole... You go on. I can't let you do this, but go on. Thriller Drive, one of my favorite films that Ryan Gosling sported a dragon jacket, a satin dragon jacket. I appreciate how much you want to be the sin eater here, but I came in here with an apology coming over the top. Are you apologizing for my apology?

I set you up. I steered you wrong. I went back to the call. clip, which has been posted on social media. So thanks guys in the booth for that one. My other favorite thing about the clip that they put on social, it's not just that I'm like, he wears a dragon jacket. And you're like, yeah. So that was my fault. But two, at the end of that clip. I think what the point is, is that I should know better. Chris, I interviewed the costume designer who found the jacket. It was one of my first pieces for Grantland. It's all about a scorpion jacket. That's in my CV. I carry this burden. Not you. you carry so much water here.

This podcast is one set of footprints in the sand, okay? So I just, you can't, this is not your apology. I feel like I should have done better. And I feel like I'm slipping a little bit and I want to make a promise to our audience and I want to make a promise to you that it won't happen again. Well, I think that that's good to have standards.

It's a culture of accountability. But I'm really the one that steered you wrong. I also do wonder, do you think that now, because as people have heard, we are on video and on YouTube and stuff, and some of these clips are being serviced, pushed to socialists. Do you think that we need to, let me rephrase, do you think that I need to keep it a little more buttoned up?

Because in that clip where you're like, I love the city of Los Angeles because I fell in love with the film Drive and listening to the chromatics. And at the end of it, I immediately grabbed the wheel with my Gosling leather gloves and bring it back to seeing Paul Simon at Art's Deli in 1986. Would you think that you're just kind of maybe? There's a version of this where people are like,

studio space too much. There's a version of this where people watch that clip and they're like, anything can happen. Yeah. Yeah. That's incredible. It's like free jazz. But in my life experience, some people don't like free jazz. Some. I've been getting into it. And I've long, long subscribed to your brand of jazz. Greenwald, today we're going to talk a little bit about so Severance comes out tomorrow night. We're recording this on Thursday. So Severance comes out tomorrow night, season two. And I want to talk to you a little bit about broadly the show, but also the rollout for it, because I have some thoughts on that.

And we've watched some of the new season. Yeah. We won't, but we will not spoil it for people who have not been able to. We hit this daredevil trailer that's set in the internet on fire. You are ready for that one. And then we're going to talk about the first two episodes of the pit and the first couple episodes of American Prime Evil, the number one show on Netflix. I just want to say, I put in the work.

You did. This week. And I felt seen by you. You crammed, but you did put in the work. I was meant to be. be in London, England this week, due to catastrophic events in California. I did not travel.

And speaking about exploring the space, I was exploring American television. You also wanted to see if Coach Prime got the Cowboys job too. Like, I need to stay domestic for that. After listening to Sal talk about what would happen to his fandom if that happened, now I really need to know. Yeah. I'm riveted.

Yeah. Yes, you were supposed to be in England, but you're here. I'm here. And I watch a lot of TV, and I can't wait to talk about it. TV, pretty good. Let me ask you this. And obviously, like, it's a very odd week for us because it's not the usual kind of like boots on the ground shoe leather reporting that we're known for on this podcast. But anecdotally, just based on like my timeline and also just generally people who are like talking to me about television still. Those are the people at Sweet Green. And not AQI.

Right. Hard that many of them left. It just seems like this severance moment is a thing. It seems like it's the first time, I almost want to say since the last season of Succession, maybe, where I can feel a lot of people like hotly anticipating a show like at this temperature. And I think that this kind of culminated with this performance art piece

slash pop-up that Apple and Severance did at Grand Central Station this week, where the cast of Severance, or at least Britt Lauer and Adam Skye, and Zach Cherry, basically performed as their characters in a glass-en-cased replica of their office from Lumen. And I just wanted to kind of get a temperature check from you of like where you're at with this coming and whether or not this is like, this feels like significant from Apple and significant for TV. I want to start there. I'll start with a slightly more cynical or industry-based take and then we could talk about like the significance of people's affection for the show and how it I translate into a cultural moment.

I think this might be the first time that Apple has flexed its incomparable muscles in a TV marketing push. I don't, and we've spent some time talking about like how do people know what's out there? Is Apple really trying? Like, you know, I heard yesterday anecdotally that Dick Wolf and his son have a half-hour cop show on Amazon Prime with Eric LaSalle that's pretty good. And I was like, I had never heard it. And I feel like it is kind of our job to know.

about some of these things. And so again and again, these large companies, it's not even they're fumbling the bag. They just have a lot of bags. If Apple wants to push something to the forefront of our consciousness, whether it's a U2 album or it's a Severin season launch, they can do it to a degree that almost no other company can. So it is fascinating to see them put all of their weight behind this. Yeah. And frankly, like, it's necessary in this case, both because it's been a three-year absence and because this isn't, it's not a challenging watch, Safferance,

but as people who tune in tomorrow night, Friday night to watch season two, or the first episode of season two, if you indulge in the three-minute recap, it is like getting hit in the head. It is just relentless how much plot and stuff was happening in the show.

So it is a smart play to put it in front of everybody to this degree. But I think the question you're asking that I, I guess I haven't fully thought out yet, an answer to it is are we just missing ongoing television shows on a prestige level? Are we missing the conversation? Are we missing the obsession? Are we missing the Redditing? And this is coming in actually the right time to scratch an itch.

I think it's the latter because my broad review of the first few episodes that I got a chance to watch without saying anything about anything that happens is that this is an expert mystery box show. And the characters within the show perform that mystery box theater at an incredibly high level and maybe one that we haven't seen since lost. There are shows that become mystery boxes almost unintentionally.

I don't think Nick Pizzolato wrote the first season of True Detective thinking he would send me in the spiral that he did about Carcosa. Spiral? You mean like the symbol? I see what you did there. So there are shows that can unintentional find wide up there. I think White Lotus is another example of that where it's a show that

sure there was going to be some who done it elements, but having people do frame by frame analysis or, you know, deep readings of, of dialogue to try and find clues as to who's dead and who did what. I don't necessarily think was Mike White's intention when he started the show, although it certainly helped with its, with its popularity. Severance for whatever its creative evolution has been, and it's been a complicated and long one. both to get to the screen in the first place and to get to the screen for the second season, seems to understand fully what people are coming to it for.

And so much of the dialogue in the first couple of episodes is, what the fuck is happening? What's going on? Who is that? What did you mean by that? What did they mean by that? And it's like this very kind of like, it's almost like 24, but just your brain.

So much of the first episode is someone running blindly through a labyrinth. Yeah, and the first few minutes of the second season, I believe, were aired already, and you can watch them on Apple TV already. Yeah, so I think it's a fascinating, you know, we've unpacked these kinds of shows before in detail, or we've mocked them, like, you and I got lost deep in the sauce with dark. Oh, yeah, that was fun. You know, I mean, we are susceptible to this stuff, but I think that they have captured, they know exactly what the show is, and now they are really playing to it.

And I do have another point I'd like to make, which is, I think that the three-year layoff, they're playing it well. Oh, okay. I thought you're going to zag and say more shows should have three-year layoffs. No, I mean, I think it's a disaster for television, frankly. But for some reason with this series, I have been compelled to read multiple multi-thousand-word explainers

about what happened last season where we're at. I mean, some people have just rewatched the whole first season in the lead-up. This is like the dream is to create this kind of like secondary activity off of the screen and interest in your show. And I guess it's really, it feels like it's really working for this specific title. I think that's, I think you're probably right. And I think that's a very interesting read on it. Because my concern, I did go back and try to remember some of this going into the second season. and my ongoing concern having watched some of the second season is, well, one step back.

The show was and is absolutely stunning. It is visually just incredible. The performances are phenomenal, almost entirely across the board. And like the real, the rawness of the emotion that Adam Scott brings to it, that John Trituro brings to it, make the show for me and give me something to latch on to. all of that said I continue to have a sort of deep feeling

that in terms of the mystery box Severance just continues to write very expensive Apple issued checks that it probably can't cash on a story level. That will be the question. So when I watch the show and again we're not spoiling season two because this was throughout the first season, there

definitely was a fork in the road where there were people and I don't blame them. Like you said, I've been this person when it came to Lost or Dark or a few other titles, who are watching it precisely for the question of what are they doing on those computers, for what are the baby goats for? What is the real mythology of Kier and the Lumen Dynasty? Are the Bill's Good in this reality?

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I am not interested in any of that. And Succession, geez, severance has never made me interested in that. So I'd be interested as the season goes on and we get feedback and we talk to other people about it. Are there, is there just a fundamental severed divide here between people who are iny on the mystery and people who are outy on it like me? Or is it a problem? Is it a fault line in the show that it ultimately won't be able to solve?

Because they are all all the way in. I mean, this is an incredibly expensive proposition. Clearly Apple has given carp launch to Ben Stiller. Season three is already in the work. Yeah, they're doing it. And even like the New York Times interview with Ben Stiller, it's like he knows how it ends. Like they've had conversations about what is going on. They are likely, they may have been making it up as they went along like coming off of Dan Erickson's pilot, but they've made some decisions since then.

But anyway, all this is to say, I'm curious. You might be right that they are marketing it correctly by building the momentum for the show around the part of the show that I personally don't connect to. But I'm curious about how that will pay out. I think I was cynical or I was skeptical. like you were until I watched it again. I found that the first season

for me was more laborious. It was just the episodes felt slower and longer and I think it took me a long time to I think the initial concept of the show I was very into

this idea of compartmentalization this larger metaphor. Between work, I wonder why. And as the season went on, I think I got a little bit like kind of where you were in terms of like, this is a little bit of a chore.

I don't really know if they know where this is going, what, like, et cetera. These first few episodes that I've watched of the second season, I would say that I'm a much more pro,

somewhat because of the things that you mentioned, which is just the absolutely stellar level of everything that they're doing in terms of cinematography, in terms of staging and production design. And kind of like, they know, after seven or eight minutes,

someone needs to discover something. And it's, It's kind of like you get your little dopamine hit every couple scenes in the show now. I would say the other thing that the show has going for it, that I do not want to understate, is that Severance has wit and Severance has style. And those are two things that are often lacking in television these days. Like, what I, my takeaway from the season premiere was that it was super funny. Yeah.

And I love that. Yeah. And I think that, and style, which goes beyond design. Do you know what I mean? Like the stylized nature of the rooms within rooms, the staging of the scenes when people are placed in these white spaces and in these hallways with these color patterns and color stories. And we'll save most of it for Monday.

But like, you know, I noted with interest that Stiller's regular cinematographer, Jessica Lee Gagne is a producer, maybe even executive producer on the show now. You don't see that that often. Yeah. And it's deserving because she's incredible. So, yeah, I feel like, I guess for the purposes of what we're talking about today, ahead of people, most people engaging with the show itself, I'm curious about what hole it fills for them.

Yeah. Because you are right. Like, we have spent the last year being like, there's just nothing is coming back anymore. We don't have these ongoing relationships. And while this is a very stylized and slightly chilly show, these are people that have been with us now for a number of years, whether actually on our screens or at least just sort of haunting our subconscious. So there is something to be said for that.

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Save at Whole Foods Market. All right. Some really sad news happened while we were just recording the first part of this episode, which is that we found out that David Lynch passed away, one of the greatest American filmmakers of our lifetimes, a person who had enormous influence on television, Andy and I were just talking about severance. There is no severance without Twin Peaks. Andy, this is somebody I know meant especially like had a huge outsized impact on your life. I know it's really raw.

Yeah. And I just thought maybe we could talk about him a little bit. Yeah, I'm devastated. I'm so sad. We were, you know, we talked about him the other day. Yeah. We were talking about L.A. movies. I've been talking about him a lot recently

just because, you know, he's 78 years old was housebound of them physisies. the last few years. So I don't think it's a surprise that he's no longer with us, but it's a shock. Yeah. Because this is the person who, you know, in many ways, like, taught me to like art, because Twin Peaks was the most significant cultural event of my young life. Yeah. I've talked about this on other podcasts, talked about it on the Stick the Landing that I did with Joanna, but like the opening moments of Twin Peaks, which I tuned into just because as an absolute media sozzled dork.

It was like on the cover of TV guide. I hadn't seen any David Lynch movies or anything. Or maybe, no, you know, I'd probably seen Dune on cable. I'd been like, what the fuck is this? But it was supposed to be like interesting or smart. And I watched it. And I think a lot about how the opening scene at the Great Northern has these visitors from Europe and it's dopey and Ben Horn is trying to entertain them and it's funny and

it's discordant and it's weird. And then Leland Palmer gets the call that his daughter has been murdered and you hear his wife wailing. And there's this collision of existential anguish and grief and surreal goofiness. And I didn't know you could mix those flavors together. And I became obsessed with that show and obsessed with his movies and obsessed with him as a person. Because I don't know how many in this fractured social media moment, how many absolute to their bones artists we have. who create an aesthetic with their lives, not just their work, but their lives, their personalities,

who they are, what they mean to people. And it's probably worth saying whenever you talk about David Lynch, like what he means to his creative community, how much they love him. Oh, yeah. Always working with the same people. And, you know, I talked about this. You listen to the actors who have worked with him, talk about him,

like Naomi Watson, Laura Dern and Kyle McLaughlin. I think I've talked about this on the podcast, but I had, I mean, I did have a funny opportunity where we were both parents at the same school. to chat with him a little bit, which was incredible. But then I did the FYC event for Twin Peaks of the Return. It was with him, and it was Laura Dern and with Kyle McLaughlin. And I had met Kyle before, he'd been on the podcast.

He's just a lovely, lovely guy. And Laura was incredibly kind. But what was unbelievable about it was that they were both at once starstruck by someone they've known for 30 years when David showed up. And this was on the Paramount lot, and he was allowed to smoke. They just put an ashtray in front of him. and they also had two bottles of red wine there for him. And they were starstruck by him,

but it was also like their father was there. They were overjoyed, and they were so, they just couldn't not be near him, how much he meant to them. And they were joking about when they were making blue velvet, when Laura and Kyle were a couple, and they stayed in this motel, and they were having all these wonderful memories.

And then when we all went on stage, and David did the thing that he always did, which he just didn't talk about stuff. He just would not give it. Like, imagine anyone being like that now, being like the art speaks for itself. They were carrying him in a way. They filled in the gaps and they were delighted by him and charmed by him. And the only time that he really spoke, despite me peppering him with many questions about like the fundamental artistic text of my life,

the only time he really spoke was when I asked about how in a very, very moving way, Twin Peaks to Return was like an epitaph for so many of his friends and collaborators, because so many of them appeared in it, like Catherine Colson, who played The Log Lady, like Miguel Ferrer, Warren Frost, it was their last screen appearance. And there was an elegiac nature to this. And I'm sitting here processing the fact that, like, that's the last artistic statement. But what a towering like last achievement. It is a final statement. I mean, in the sense that you never call your shot, you can't always predict it. But it is a beautiful achievement because it's a family affair in a very meaningful way,

both for the fans and for the artists and for the crew, but also, like with everything he did, it's fucking confounding and it's weird and it's funny

and it does not give you any closure. You know, so I think a lot of people who knew him more than I did or who have loved his work for longer will be mourning today, but it's an irreplaceable loss.

There aren't that many people in our life making vital art who have become adjectives. No, Lynchian. Right. He is one of one. And if you try to imitate him, you will fail.

Yeah, I hope people imitate his spirit, though. One of the things I always loved about him, just off the top of the head, was his ability to assemble a cinematic universe made up of his interests and made up of his obsessions. And I mean that both in terms of his fascination with both the darkest pits of human depravity

and the most square, corny, Like, like, G, golly, gosh, you know, black cup of coffee and a diner breakfast kind of stuff.

And you can also see it in the objects that he pushes to the foreground of his work, whether it's the kind of 50s cool noir or, you know,

the idea of dreams being as real as reality. And, yeah, what an amazing, what an amazing contribution to American popular culture and what an amazing capstone to a career that return was.

The most universal thing, I think, among anyone listening or anybody alive, is like you have a crazy dream because we all have them, but not necessarily scary, just you have a dream that has shaken you, and you wake up and you turn to someone, and you try to tell it to them, and you sound insane. You cannot communicate the dream to someone else, both the logic of it or the illogic of it or the emotions it stirred up in you. And if you want to think about what a pure artist is,

someone who can tell you their dreams and make you feel their dreams. And that's what Lynch did. I would say five of the most upsetting, horrifying, nightmarish things I've ever seen or felt came from his movies, whether it's the guy who dies of fright in Mulholland Drive or Bob crawling over the back of the couch in the original Twin Peak series. But also, as you said, he was capable of showing you beauty and quiet. And, um, peace in ways that you can't even imagine. I think about another great artist who is his close friend and fellow,

along with you, lover of cigarette smoking, like Harry Dean Stanton is in Twin Peaks of the Return. And there's a moment in that series that juxtaposes the death of a child with Harry Dean Stanton's soulful eyes and cigarette smoking. And I'm like, it's just, how can you have all of it?

The only thing we could ever say against David Lynch was that he hated Philadelphia. Which he did. I'm not just making that up. He credits a lot of the darkness he gets a whole pass for that. From the time he lived in Philadelphia of the 70s.

He says that's what inspired Eraserhead. So I don't know. We're going to keep processing this. But good God. Have a black cup of coffee, a piece of pie, and watch Blue Velvet this weekend. Yeah. It's just that the city is less for it.

With his absence, it's awful. So you want to get into talking about these shows? The Daredevil trailer? Yeah, I know. Just like, it's. I think we can't. I mean, we're... Speaking of it.

of iconoclasts. We got to keep moving. We got to keep it moving. I don't mind. We have a rundown for our show. Okay. I guess we could talk a little bit about this Daredevil trailer.

I can't wait to see you do this. Go on. Yeah. I think that this is an interesting gambit because they are bringing the Netflix Marvel Street. What was it called

when it was on Netflix? The Marvel shows. What was the? the street-level characters. Yeah, street-level characters. I mean, it was Marvel Television, which was different than the MCU. Yes. So this is the first time on Disney Plus

through the Faggy Machine that we'll see Daredevil on screen, correct? Well, he's been back. I mean, because Kingpin was in Echo and Charlie Cox was in, I believe, the last Spider-Man movie as Daredevil. Oh, he's like his lawyer, right? Yeah, so they have been...

The fact that he's accepting that into the canon is not a surprise. But it looks like it's just... is violent and growling as usual as ever. Yeah, I guess the takeaway for me from this is, this is like many things these days, has had a tortured path back to the small screen. That's generally like with the strikes in COVID.

But pre-strike, the way this was positioned when this was announced, was that it was going to be longer than any TV show they'd done before. It was going to be close to 15, 20 episodes, I believe, and that it was going to be more of a procedural because Matt Murdoch is a lawyer. So it was going to be a courtroom show that also had super heroics in it, and it seemed to suggest that they were going to be

doing a different spin on the character, which, canonically, that's what happens. Some people come on and they do a run, and it's the incredibly dark, tortured Catholicism of the Frank Miller era, and then some people come back, and then it switches, and then Mark Wade is writing him

as more like pop art, West Side... Cool lawyer guy. Cool lawyer guy. And I got to say, I probably said it on this podcast. I was like, smart. What's your preference of like the sort of depictions of Daredevil? Like, do you have a preference?

No, one of the reasons why a lot of great comic writers and artists like to play with Daredevil is because he is kind of malleable. You can, there are archetypal images from that character and from the many people who have made their bones on him. But everybody can try a different spin. So like the Mark Wade, I think it was Marco Martine was the artist. Like, so beautiful. But also the Brian Michael Bendis and Alex Malib version.

was also haunting and gorgeous and dark and heavy. So I kind of liked the idea that it seemed like Feigey was like, yeah, we're just going to put a different writer or artist on this. And it doesn't mean he can't be gritty again in the future. And then anyway, it shut down because of the strikes, and then also maybe for some budget stuff and some creative stuff. And then now that it's back, it seems, it's interesting. And now seems like the first post-echo show in the MCU

because this just seems like the Netflix version again. It's the post-echo era we're living in it. I had no idea. It's the echo of the echo verse. It's bone-crunching. Trump will be our first president elected in the post-echo era. Well, Daredevil's only good when Trump's in office, I guess.

That's the real Zach. Okay? Yeah, do you like that? We needed Trump to save Daredevil. We needed him, yeah, to restore him. Yeah. My takeaway from this trailer was... I would love Daredevil as AG would have been great.

Oh, my God. Yeah. Justice is Blonde. and so am I. Yeah. Do you think he recognizes the... Oh, that would be amazing. If they were, like, asking him confirmation hearings,

like, do you think Joe Biden won the election? He's like, I'm literally blind. I don't know. Show me the evidence. I can't see it. Yeah. That's great. That gets him right out of trouble.

No, I mean, I watched this trailer. I'm like, oh, they've committed. They've committed to a lane. And it will probably... This trailer will probably be very well received because people like the Netflix show. And it may, in fact, be successful. because of it.

But sorry, like, I was interested in them doing something different with it, but here go. people seem to like this biblical battle between a small blind man and the thing that Vincent Dinoffrio does. Yeah. I would say that I'm running on empty with the Donofrio Kingpin thing, to the extent that I have engaged with this content over the years. You a Punisher guy?

No. Like, you, listen, I'm going to put myself out. Like, like, even as a. kid, you weren't like, this is cool? You're giving me the chance to retcon my own history. I am. But just take a moment. Put the dragon jacket on.

Imagine me. Imagine me in 1991 when the other chaps at Fat Jack's comic crypt were like, this new issue of Punisher War Journal is incredible because he murders the serpent society. Do you want to guess what I said? That level of violence is abhorrent. Like, I was always me. of course I hated it All right

Are you gonna give Bernthal His Dap here though How do you feel about this Bernthal move Because I mean the fans are happy I'm sure it's a successful Recognizable thing for him I'm sure that He's happy to be bringing this character back

And this character certainly has a lot of Onscreen potential that I don't think Has been properly tapped Although You know like given the source material I think vigilante justice Sort of goes in and out of fashion in American culture.

Do you think it's coming back? I can't tell. Yeah. I personally have a broader wish list for Bernthal going forward. Do you do what I mean? Like, I think...

You'd like to see him paint with other colors in his paintbox? Well, you know what it is? I was thinking about this with ham. You know? Yes. Ham after Draper. And I don't know what you would call

Bernthal's draper. I suppose Wayne Jenkins, but it was obviously a much smaller cultural impact than Mad Men. But let's just say that's his like take out this dude carried this whole show, give him all the awards

even though you didn't. Performance. And then since then has been America's greatest guest. Awesome podcast. Yeah. Incredible on the bear. Yeah. You know, popping up in places. And he did American Gigolo, which

kind of came and went. And now he's back as the Punisher. And I know he's in the accountant too. I'm just like, I want like the Bernthal thing. I want the showcase. We're going to... This is going to come up a little bit.

I don't know if you realize this, because we didn't prep this part, but when we talk about the pit momentarily, I do have some thoughts about returning to iconic roles or staying in a lane. I think the issue you're pointing out, which is really interesting,

is that Bernthal is one of our greatest actors and still, still, after a couple, many years of being the next, next thing, one of our most exciting actors. When he shows up, it's like, even normals are like,

oh, this is exciting. But what's his definitive, iconic role? It might be the one that you have continued to publicize across many of the Ringer

properties and podcasts. But that was, you know, violently underseen. He hasn't had that role yet. I mean, but you can only, I choose to live in a world

where it's like, I don't care if a lot of people saw it. If it was really good, you know, so in any case, Of course. I just mentioned that because Ham, he did his run on Landman.

He's been on Morning Show. He's kind of been around. And now he's going into his first leading man. I'm carrying a series with your friends and neighbors. With your friends and neighbors, which has already been renewed for a second season by Apple before the first season is airing. So we'll keep an eye on Daredevil.

Let's get into the pit. Yeah. Okay. So this is a show that we have been talking about a lot as conceptually and what it means for the direction of prestige, slash streaming TV because this is a Mac show that has was hot off the press.

It was like as soon as the idea was starting to be kicked around and as soon as it was being mentioned, it was like not only is this exciting because it's Noah Wiley returning to a medical procedural but it brings in John Wells who obviously had a huge hand in ER

went on to work on Shameless kind of came in at the ninth inning on West Wing. And extended it into extras. Yeah. one of the great, you know, TV executive producer writers. And like the shaman of showrunners. And the shaman of showrunners.

He does courses for people who are becoming showrunners for the first time. He is just lionized and revered for that. That's amazing. Yeah. So this is a HBO Max show. Warner Brothers. A Warner Brothers production. And it is set in a Pittsburgh emergency room.

And the structure is a hook because the structure is it's 15 episodes. 15 hours, one shift in one day of an ER in Pittsburgh. And we should say again, although we've said it and we've talked about it before, that this show is the subject of ongoing litigation. Yes, because the estate of Michael Crichton believes that this is essentially, or it was going to be, essentially it sounds like there was an ER sequel that had been in development. There was talk of rebooting ER, for sure. And then this show kind of takes place, it's not connected to ER at all,

through character or story. No. Vibe-wise, I would say, it's very much of the... Yeah, and John Wells directed it. It was created and run by R. Scott Gemmell, who worked on ER.

I think Wells just wrote the first episode. I don't think he directed it. He directed it. Oh, wow. He did not write it. Our Scott Gemmell wrote the first two episodes.

Wells didn't write on it. He just directed the pilot. Okay. Well, in any case... By the way, Noah Wiley wrote two episodes himself. Oh, wow. How about that?

A multi-hyphen it. Anyway. So, yeah, the first two episodes are up. The third one will be going up probably by the time you hear this podcast. Like I said, it starts at 7 a.m. Every episode is named after the hour. It takes place in. And I got to say.

Do it. This is a safe space. Just push the epi, dude. I was pretty into this. Hook it into my veins. You know what? Open an airway and just intubate me with this show. Okay, so let me ask you this.

rip because the criticism that you would have of this or that one could have of this, aside from the fact that it's largely humorless, is... There's the guy with a dog collar, but go on. That's pretty funny. Is that it is so far absent of the will they or won't they ship Olympics that took place in the... There's a little flavoring of it, a little sprinkle. It is very, very piously realistic where it's just like, there is, there is. is not time for, you know, cool shooting baskets in the backyard and, like, you know.

Oh, like, yeah, like Doug and Mark waiting for the L. Yeah, like, it's, it is about this job and not about the home life of the people who do the job, at least as of now. Okay. After two hours of their day shift. So that would be the thing I think you could say against it is there's not enough, like, personality and life to these characters. They're all just doing their job.

But that being said, it's. so immersive and so fascinating and also brings back that incredible feeling that ER had where you were almost felt like you were watching this actually take place because it would go from one bed

and then the track you out into another part of the hospital of the emergency room. It's a visual language that was so groundbreaking 30 years ago that Quentin Tarantino who was the most groundbreaking

cinematic director of that time not only was obsessed of the show asked to direct an episode And I think he has to direct an episode, not necessarily because he wanted to bring his trademark verb to it, but because he wanted to see how they fucking did that shit. Yeah. To have that language back in my life is a blessing.

Yeah. This show is a instantaneous reminder to me that TV is so hard, but it's not always complicated. This is like an incredible cover version of a song that I'll never stop loving, instantly drawn in and not just drawn in because of the rhythms

which, because thanks to John Wells and the DNA without even waiting into the litigation is deeply, deeply familiar in a way that made me

very happy and absolutely makes all the executives who have been trying to make it in 1997 again through science or magic happy. But there is a

lack, there's a simplicity to watching a show that is about heroism. You know, sue me, but there is something that emotionally, morally, intellectually feels really good about watching certainly flawed people absolutely in the shit doing their best. And it is why the medical show is one of the two most enduring styles of show, right? Because it's just everything is life or death.

The stakes are always the highest possible. And the good guys are pretty clear. I, I, you told you were like you might not be able to handle it because there are some children in peril and there's children in peril there's also like some some thoracic procedures there's more gore i will say for those of us those of you watching this podcast on youtube that there were moments in the first two episodes where my viewing experience was this yeah i did that once or twice too this yeah and that's beautiful that was my second screen was my the palm of my hand in front of me the dude got electrocuted in the second episode where they have to like basically open up his arm debraid yeah i was like I put my head up on.

I was okay with that. That reminded me a little bit of like dragon scale shit. Like I was, okay, I could kind of see what they did there. I feel like the woman's leg that had just been undone. Yeah, they did the CGI budget on that. Just undressed, let's say. Like the skeleton, half the skeleton we used to have in our science classrooms. Yeah, that was the Joe Thysman.

That was a little much. Put some respect on that man's leg. That was a little much for me. But it isn't really, it's kind of a fascinating show because there are elements of it that are obviously contemporary. The trauma of COVID lingers over the main characters a lot and the medical profession. There's, you know, within the first two hours, there's fentanyl, there's pot gummies falling out of the wrong hands. There are things that do feel like they probably are coming up in emergency rooms a lot. Or watching The Sixers, yeah.

Oh, geez. I like that you're turning it into... positivity. I don't know why I keep doing this. You know why? Hurt people, hurt people. And this is what Bill does to you. And you're pushing it down on me.

And that's okay. I see you. I'll give you a big hug when this is over. But then there are things about the show that make me think that Scott Gemmell wrote this the day ER ended and just waited for the gum you like to come back into fashion. Shout out David Lynch.

Because there's like a scene when they're having a moment of silence for someone who's died and a doctor's resident's ringtone interrupts it. Yes. Once the last time you heard a. ringtone, someone with like a stained song. A funky, like, yeah. That's, what? You know, or just like the conversations that Dr. Robbie has with the administrator who, like every few minutes just she comes out and she's like, you have to do better. And he's just like rolls up his sleeves and uncorks a Jeremiah against the healthcare industry in this country. I'm like, yeah, this is timeless. This is

timeless. I wouldn't necessarily describe it as like supremely artful dialogue in the first two episodes. It's a lot of like, oh, just another day in paradise. You know, like, it speaks somewhat in... Your voice American? Yeah, or just... That's two for two this one press. I just wanted to bring it back. Delillo Underworld job.

I loved it. It's a little root, I guess. Oh, it is fairy by the numbers, I would say. And I thought that the second episode, like, had liftoff or the first episode kind of... It was just like insisting on. telling us like of it was like this is post-COVID this guy's dealing with trauma from a mentor that he lost during COVID there are all these new interns in the ER that day we have to meet all of them they all have their own story they all have their own quirks we have to we have to introduce all of it

I'm Santos and I'm sassy you know and I'm gonna give you nicknames and we all have one secret that's a little bit of a twist on what we expected like the the the one who seems overwhelmed is the daughter of the dominant surgeon in the upstairs hospital or the Fiona Dorif's doctor who seems incredibly kind is wearing an ankle monitor and we don't understand why that is. But like, look, we all understand the recipe and it's just being executed at such a high level. It's incredibly entertaining. Before we get into the most important part of the conversation, which I think is Noah Wiley in the lead, I do feel like, and I know that every time right before we sit down, and they're checking mics and stuff

and Kaya comes in and it's like, are you guys going to be woke today and like, you know, trying to like read the room and we appreciate that. I... Kaya throws a bunch of snowflakes at us. I... I did...

I did... I did want to say, I don't... I'm intentionally not making... I don't mean to make it political. But I do think, broadly speaking, we can agree that there is a segment of the society that we live in

that maybe had disappeared up its own ass over the last few years, culturally creative. Are you zagging? I'm only zagging in the sense of television. And what I mean is this. Oh, okay. Where were these shows during the last 20 years? And I mean these shows, I don't mean like, oh, CBS never stop making medical procedures.

I know that. This is better than that. And it's not better than that because of the gore budget or because they can swear a couple times. It's better in the same way that the things that we used to love within the mass culture were better, like ER, like homicide, life on the street. I do think there was a weird inversion of our expectations over the last few years where suddenly we thought things that were intellectual or elevated needed to be at the forefront of cultural conversation. When growing up, we liked records that didn't sound like everyone else's records, and that was cool for us.

that was fine. But also when like Bush release swallowed, we were like, that rips or like Spice Girls. Like, that's a catchy song. That's fine. All I'm saying here is, there's nothing wrong with something that isn't veering too far to the, I want to say left.

I'm joking about making it political. What I mean is this is mass market entertainment done at a very high level, and I really enjoyed that. And I also still enjoyed Irma VEP on HBO, which is going to be the show I keep referencing. I would also say that the pit is pretty naked in its assessment of the current state of American healthcare.

Sure. Yeah, no, right. It's a widely diverse cast all being like, we're fucked. Yeah. I only, I joked at the start, but I did mean to, like, pollute my observation with that.

Because what I do mean, no, I know. It doesn't. I don't think they'll know. Who's that? You know people listen to them. That's right. Everyone who listens to this who's going to be confused is busy in D.C. this week. It's fine.

No, no, no. Genuinely and sincerely, I really like, and in a weird way, this is, this applies to American Prime Evil, too, a show that has nothing else in common with this other than it's, you know, lyrical depictions of blunt trauma. I like shows that are very comfortable being what they are and not trying to be more than that are not trying to cover too much ground or disappear up their own ass. And like, even within my, whatever my limited perspective is in the industry over the last two years, as there has been this larger turn towards let's make it 1997 again.

Let's get back to our widgets. Some of the pitches that I've seen or outlines I've seen or pilots that I've read are always, they're all still trying to just put a little extra mustard on it. They're all like, yes, it's ER, but it's. also Roshaman or it's ER but it's also, do you know what I mean? And this is, yes, it's ER, but it's also don't tell Michael Crichton's estate,

that's the end of the sentence. It's just ER. And that's fine, man, that's great. Okay, so the thing that ER did, aside from give the audience, like almost a new visual language to watch TV with and learn and what, and then...

Did you know about intubation before this? ER, I didn't. I don't know, no, I mean, I'm sure they intubated some dudes on, say, elsewhere, right? I don't know. They were just, they were just razin insane elsewhere.

They were just... It also introduced a half a dozen really durable TV and movie stars. So between Clooney, who is obviously still headlining films

and a major figure in Hollywood today, Anthony Edwards was already in top guns, so it's not like Anthony Edwards was out of nowhere. But Julianna Margulies, Eric LaSalle,

Laura Innes, our beloved Sherry Stringfield Oh my God Monuments should be raised And you know Many others And then later just Mara Tierney

Linda Cardalini Yeah Mike Fifeer I mean Linda Cardalini Yeah like the people who were just Came to join the cast And Off I wonder whether after two episodes of VR

Did people know Did people know like this group of people Are gonna be yeah Yeah I mean It was incredible Watching TV and being the Dork that read TV guide

in 94. Yeah. Because it... I was reading the Punisher, but that's cool. Yeah, but you were reading it like on the bus for travel baseball. It...

You were living a very, very full life. I was not. But, yeah, I mean, 94 introduced the cast of friends and the cast of ER. And we were like, yep, that's us set for a generation of people to care about.

Well, I mean, this is stuff that people are still watching today. Yes. And I mean, what it was like to be the same dork that I keep saying that I was, was like, I knew George Clooney from the facts of life.

Like, this dude had been on all the TV shows. And then America was like, ah, this, you know, there were all these articles being like, you know, this nephew of Rosemary Clooney's kicked around for years and he's finally found it. I was like, oh, the guy from coming to America has finally got his second act. Wasn't he a maintenance man on Golden Girls, too?

Clooney? Yeah. No. He was the maintenance guy in Facts of Life, I think. Facts of Life, okay. But he was Booker on Roseanne in the first two seasons. He was on just endless sitcoms. But, yeah, your point, but like Juliana Margulies, it's the, we always talk about the, you know, the wonderful fluidity of the TV creative process because Aaron Paul was meant to die in the pilot of Breaking Bad.

And then they were like, nope, Julianna Margulies died in the pilot of ER. And they were like, we think this last has something. Yeah. This Carol and Doug's story. you teared up a little bit when I said that. Just thinking about it. It's great stuff. Remember Doug when the road was flooding?

Oh my God, what a hero he was. Remember that Doug was great with kids? I say that because I don't think the pit is trying to launch a generation of stars. I do not either, although it may stumble into some. I mean, if it is successful. But I also think the ecosystem has changed so much. There's a, well, you know what, let me slightly zag on that, only to say, the pilot for ER, written by the very litigious Michael Creighton,

the late Michael Creighton, was incredibly, not vanilla, but like, he had written it in the 70s, I believe, and had been passed over and kicked around, and it took years for them to bring it to the screen, and then also for the creative people involved in it to be like, let's push things forward visually and do it a different way. One of the things that I always thought was funny about ER, even in the 90s, was that the names of the characters were the most basic-ass names. You know, it was Mark Green,

Doug Ross, shout out to my elementary school science teacher, Doug Ross. Carol, like, it was all Susan, right? It was all very, just kind of squareish. And then all the people who got involved in the show later, and I think Spielberg was a producer, right? So Amblin was involved, pushing it. So, whatever. But, like, it became,

it was both a question of casting, and then the visual language and then the new creative team, exploded the possibilities of it beyond maybe what that pilot was. So I'm willing to say that if the pit has even a quarter of the success of ER did, that there could be a chance for growth

for these characters too. But your first point might be right, which is if we're not showing them shooting hoops in between ambulance dumps, then we might not have the chance to calm up. Let's talk about Noah Wiley, who is carrying this show and all of the trauma of the last

eight years of America. American life in his bones as Dr. Robbie. He is the person overseeing the ER. Senior attending. Yeah, senior attending. And he's on this 15-hour shift when he arrives. He is relieving a guy named Dr. Jack Abbott played by Sean Hatozy. Familiar Face for people.

For sure. Shout out to the faculty. But that doctor seems to be like at the very edge of his end of his rope. I mean, I've seen you after three podcasts. he's like looking over the railing on the roof and they're obviously in a pretty dark place and that darkness continues in throughout the day. What did you think of Wiley in this new way of looking at him, I think? Because usually he has been presented as this kind of effervesvesant kind of wet behind the year's kid.

Yeah, he was the POV character. He was the youngest. He was the sweetest walking in and having shit kicked out of him. The show doesn't work without him. I think he's absolutely incredible. He, as you said, he carries everything that isn't on the page in his performance. And there's almost no, you can't budget for financially or in terms of like potential success in this industry for what he brings to this. Instantly you understand who he's been and who he is to everyone.

instantly you understand why he is able to be everywhere all at once and what it's costing him. Of course he's the one who's going to be delivering devastating news after devastating news to people. It's honestly, it made me think that we shouldn't, that we should allow more actors to just typecast themselves forever. Not just Tim Oliphant as a U.S. Marshall. that like maybe instead of just rebooting shows like Kelsey Grammer wants to play Frazier again so we have Frazier again, what we need to do instead is make a show

where you play the type of guy that you've played before. But the older version. Right, so Woody Harrelson as a bartender in, I want to say, New Hampshire or whatever. And so you avoid the lawsuits, but or like what if, or you get Michael B. Jordan back on the streets of Baltimore in a different role.

Do you know what I mean? And frankly, to your other point, John Hamm should just play a salesman again. John Hamm should just chill out, come back from the dead on landman, sorry, spoiler, and get a little gray in his hair and just be an ad guy again in a different deck. I don't care.

But like, let's all be honest here because what Wiley is doing is exceptional. And it's exceptional because of the shared history with him I mean, like, shouldn't George, like I understand why creative people want creative challenges all the time. You know, it's why I'm letting you know this is my last podcast with you.

It's time to stretch my wings. Sorry you had to find out this way. However, well, now that the bit ended, now that it did it, so I can finally be unmuzzled. Clooney should just be Michael Clayton forever. And you could call the movie Clay Michaels.

I don't care. but just like, I don't see the downside here. It's give the people what they want. I'll shout out Wiley's ability that has obviously learned over the course of countless seasons on ER. Did he go end to end with EAR? Did he leave earlier?

I believe he was there the whole time. I believe he was the Meredith Gray. John Carter lives? Right. Yes. John Carter from Mars? John Carter that he played. By the way, his character was John Carter. Like, Crichton,

all respect to the deceased Mike Creighton, but like spend five more minutes on the names. He is able to convey human feeling and emotion while also saying, you know, push 10 cc's of this. For what it's worth. Okay. But he came back at the year. There's a moment in the second episode. I hope people have watched it by now, but this is a spoiler for the second episode, I guess. a teenager has been brought in unresponsive.

They kind of have a little bit of a house MD thing going where they can't figure out what's wrong with him. There's this incredible sequence of events that I hope I am getting right, if I remember correctly, where basically they look at his pupils right before Robbie is about to talk to the guy as the kid's parents. And the pupils are blown, which suggests brainstem activity is stopped.

And then as he is talking to the parents, a nurse shows him a urine drug test that is tested positive for fentanyl. And so he has to tell these parents live in this conversation that the kid overdosed on fentanyl. And they were just like, no, you didn't, because how would he have had that?

And he has to explain, like, it can be found in Ativan. It can be found and all this stuff. Well, if you buy illegal pills, label or something, it could be. And then a few men moments later, he essentially is like, got to go tell these parents this real reality. Because at first what he says is,

we're going to run some more tests and blah, blah, blah, and gives them like a glimmer of hope. Yeah, talk to him. You never know. And then he's got to go tell the parents like, this is it. You know, like, this kid is essentially brain dead. And it's the first moment where all the other patients and doctors on the floor here, like are aware of something else happening, essentially,

because the woman and the mother starts crying so much. And so I just thought, like, that sequence, I was like, this is kind of, we're hitting ER heights here. Yeah. And the cross-cutting. And he's incredible in that. He's incredible in that. He's completely alive. This is a different type of acting, you know, that he knows how to do.

And other people had to learn. The interconnectedness is outstanding in that. Like, the mother's stream goes through everyone. And we just have a sense of place and a sense of where everyone is in their own journey. I also feel like there's just some small things that pop right away. Like Tracy, a feature is a British actress as Dr. Collins. There's some sort of history between her and Dr. Robbie. I just immediately liked her, and I wanted to see her on screen.

Like, that's the kind of thing that you need when you're casting. You need these people to pop in the small doses that you get of them. And the younger residents as well, I think, are well cast. I don't think I'd ever seen any of them before other than Issa Brioz who was on Picard, which one of the many shows that I said I would stick with. after we talked about once and sorry, but glad to see she's found something new to do. Yeah. I don't have anything other, any other fancy grand cultural statements to make other than the fact that I loved it and I would have watched four more had they been available to me. Let's talk a little bit about primeval before we get out of here.

Sure. American Prime Evil is the, I believe, as a recording the number one show on Netflix, it's from Peter Berg. And Mark L. Smith, Peterberg, obviously, an acclaimed director and TV. showrunner he helped create Friday Night Lights with Jason Katom's came up with this sort of visual language for that directed lone survivor directed

gosh what's like another deep water horizon battleship battleship and Mark L. Smith wrote the Revenant and this is a western set in 1850s during the Utah war which is a war I was not super up on to be honest 1850s a little bit of a blank spot

for your boy huh yeah I get going in the 1860s. Are you saving that for retirement? Like, just have a big old book about that decade that you can sort of scare the neighborhood kids off with? I was thinking about getting into, like, maybe I could fire up like an audiobook about the 1850s,

you know, because I've got, I got my fingers, I got my hands full with a lot of, a lot of novels right now. But I had a really negative audiobook experience recently. I was trying to be really efficient. So I was reading Creation Lake by Rachel Kush. Yeah, we talked about it. And I was like, you know what, this isn't going fast enough because I want to get to these next books.

So what I'm going to do is read and then go to the audiobook to like keep the going all over. Did you really? With no disrespect intended because I thought it was quite a good book. And Rachel Kushner is one of my favorite novelists. I don't know who read the audiobook, but it sounded like an AI version of Emma Stone. Oh my God. Yeah, wait, I have something to say about this. Go on.

And I pulled up somewhere. to get, where was I going? That someone, I think I was getting my oil changed. And I rolled up with my windows down. And there was a detailed description of a blowjob happening. Yeah. From like an AI woman. A BJ on Alvarado?

In creation. Like, it's the only thing like that happens in the book. And I happened to be pulling into like a jiffy loop. So that's just... Did everyone gather... Audio book corner? Did everyone gather around until the scene was finished? just like all the mechanics put down their tools

and just quietly gathered. Yeah, anyway. Where was I? Can I just jump in? Were we talking about, oh, so I maybe... I'm not an audiobook guy. But recently, when I was driving my daughters, they wanted to listen to one of my older daughter

was like, let's listen to... Creation Lake. Let's jump to page 391 of Creation Lake. Uncle Chris was raving about it. No, my older daughter wanted to listen to little women to convince her sister that it's really good because she's read it and seen the movie. So I gave her my phone

and she found it on Spotify. And it was horrifying within two pages because it was exactly this. It was like Alexa. She's like, Christmas won't be Christmas without presents. Grumbled Joe, bring on the rug. And we made it about half a page.

There's some really good audio books, I'm sure. And then I was so impressed. This is a whole new world that only you and my daughter can navigate because she took the phone back and within 45 seconds Christina Ricci narrating little women.

Total game changer. Was there like a different file or a different version of it? A lot of options on in Daniel X's playground. Well, maybe I had the wrong creation lake. Yeah, the Christina Ricci version.

The Juliette Lewis version. The Juliette Lewis version. Only yellow jackets. Andy, God damn it. Okay. American Prime Evil is set in 1850s, Utah. Sure, it is. Where Mormons were beefing

with... It's just one way of Native Americans and the U.S. Army, and while all this beef is happening, settlers, pioneers, whatever, are trying to make their way west. One of those pioneer are played by Betty Gilpin,

plays a character named Sarah, who's trying to get from the East Coast to her husband, who's somewhere in Utah. Once again, some Philadelphia slander in the opening minutes of this show, and I stuck with it. And I'll tell you something. So Gilpin needs a hand.

She gets out to Fort Bridger. in Utah and Shea Wigam. Wyoming, I think. Wyoming. Trying to cross into Utah. And Shay, Shea Wiggum, in an incredible turn,

plays Jim Riger. A real person. Mm-hmm. And he, eventually, she hooks up with Taylor Kitch's Isaac character, who is a mountain man of some repute.

And his job, basically that he takes out of the kindness of his heart after much arm twisting is to get her to her husband. And I'll tell you something, man. This chick gets him in a lot of pickles. in the first couple episodes.

This is your take. Go for it. I'm not... New year, new administration. I just think that she really, really gets him into some jams in this one. So to be clear, when we meet Isaac,

he's just skinning some stuff and showing his own skin. He's just living off the grid. Yes. Right. And then this mouthy broad shows up with a kid in a crutch. And she's like,

me to my husband. And that kid has a leg brace but can pick up bales of hay. Well, you don't pick them up with your legs. Yeah, but I'm just saying like I don't. Do more Pilates. You get a strong core. Okay. And I mean, I guess there's a couple things here because there's also there are obviously there are many plots on top of each other. There's also one of our favorites, Dale DeHan playing a, I'm sorry, Dane DeHan playing a young Mormon. Dale DeHan was the guy who invented the dragon jacket. It sounds like a Giambi situation to me. You know what I mean? There is another Dehan.

Yeah, there's another Dehan brother. And like a less, like an IFC show or an AMC show would hire him. Like trying to moneyball a prestige drama because they can't afford Dane. Yeah, Dane Dahan's in it. So you get Dale. Yeah, Joe Tippett, our boy from Mayor of Easttown, who plays an evil son of a bitch. And Sarah Lightfoot Leon, who we love on the agency is here again,

kind of having a moment. It's a great cast. And there are, I mean, there's like, one of the takeaways is, you know, I don't, no disrespect. Like, there haven't been that many times in my life when I wanted to go to Utah ever. I've been, I've had a really nice time there. I have no, I actually have. It's a very beautiful Salt Lake City, nice town. But I've never been like, I got to get there to the degree that these people feel it.

And I think the conditions. The spirit is compelling them. The conditions in which I went were easier. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? This show is pretty awesome, but it is the feel bad hit of the summer. It is... It is so gnarly.

It is so gnarly. The first episode culminates with a truly impressive staging of a fake news native raid on a wagon train. Where it's like these Mormon dudes are pretending to be a tribe who are there. and it's vivid. I mean, like, you get to the end of these episodes and you know, like, there's like,

sometimes there's cliffhangers where you're like, I wonder what happens next. And sometimes it's like, that was so good. I can't wait to watch another one. And these are like, truly we must have hit bottom.

I need to see these guys have like a good day. The visual palette is so muddy. It kind of is like the Netflix version of McCabe and Mrs. Miller vibes where it's just so brown. and gross,

it makes this act look as probably violent and reprehensible as possible. Do you think that Sarah and Isaac, would you be happier if like midway through their trek across the Wasatch Mountains they found like a nice Airbnb?

Well, they could glamp a little bit. Would you prefer that? She seems to have a lot of cash. Yeah, and it's weird. She's just like, I have a lot of money and other people in my limited viewing

of the show, which is basically two episodes of the five or six, I believe. So far, when anyone says they have cash, they die violently very, very soon after. Even if they're like, I have a piece of paper that suggests where cash might be. Yeah. They get killed.

That's a wrap. That's why I go paperless. You know what I mean? My guy, Jai Courtney is in this as a real piece of shit named Cutter. Did I? Should we, do you think we should... Is that J?

What's spelled the way, but I think it's pronounced J. But I know this because do you think, let's poll our listeners. They could put this. up on Facebook or whatever. Like, do you think people are interested in quotidian interactions with random semi-celebrities

that we have or not? Because one time, speaking of Pilates, I was going in and Jay Courtney was coming out. Oh, I saw Jay Courtney at a hotel lobby just a couple weeks ago. Seems like a nice guy, but he was huge.

And we were sensibly going into the same... You think he was huge? He had just been working out. Oh, but I was surprised because he was kind of closer to my house. No, no, not tall. He was just kind of jacked because he was going to do an action movie

or whatever. And, oh, he was coming in after me. And I couldn't help myself. And I was like, warmed it up for you. Did you say that? I did. Did you really? I did.

And what did he say? Okay, mate. He's Australian. Yeah, I know. It wasn't my best. It didn't feel great. But I'm like, I don't know. I'm like, maybe we're all just, we're all just, you know,

kooky astronauts on spaceship Earth. I recommend this show with the typical, like, it's pretty grisly caveat. Yeah. I want to say You're going to keep going with this. I want to keep going with this for a number of reasons, one of which is surprising myself, I'm enjoying it, and also shout out to the explosions in the sky for a very cool score.

And Gilberg's working in the floor. Kitch is my guy. I love him. I like things that are expensive in the right way and done well. Like, it looks stunning. Peterberg is a great visual director and is doing something. I mean, you mentioned McCabe and Mrs. Miller,

but I'm interested. That's probably sacrilegious. It just is like a very gritty, yeah. But it's Pete Berg directing a Western, which is, that's interesting. He's, his cameras moving in ways that it hasn't before. I didn't know arrows were like that. They, yeah, you know? They have some velocity.

I think both of us thought that maybe like in an arrow fight, we had a little bit of a chance. Yeah, just keep zagging. Just keep moving. Yeah. That does not seem to be the case. No. You know, it reminds me of, do you remember the Game of Thrones moment when the guy was just like, he could have survived if he had just not run a go-ball straight route.

Yes. If he had just done like a cross pattern, he would have survived. If you run Spire 3 Y Banana. That's what I'm saying. Like, Sean Sayyad has some notes he'd like to give. I'm saying, like, that was my understanding of arrows. But anyway, all this is to say, it is, I feel that it is surprising for my personal brand, especially as articulated on this podcast, that I'm kind of into this show, but I like history.

I like Westerns. I like Americana. You love audio books. Yeah. Love audiobooks. and into the promise of massive physical violence week to week. I can't believe any of it's super gnarly. It's not for everyone, but I am weirdly enjoying it.

What a great moment for television. We'll be back on Monday to talk a little bit about Severance's first episode. Thanks for everybody for listening for watching us on the Ringer YouTube, on the Ringer TV YouTube channel. Well, Kaya, will you be joining us next week or will you be in D.C.? I'll see where I'm needed most. Have a great weekend, guys. being in the room with us. We got to get her involved.