The Watch - Remembering Lynn Shelton, Dan Pfeiffer on ‘Top Chef,’ and James Badge Dale on ‘Hightown’

Episode Date: May 19, 2020

We take a moment to remember Lynn Shelton, a brilliant director of movies and TV (1:00). Then, Dan Pfeiffer joins the show to talk about his love for ‘Top Chef’ (15:52) and break down the most recent episode of ‘Top Chef: All-Stars L.A.’ (34:07). Finally, Chris talks with James Badge Dale about his new show ‘Hightown’ (57:22). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guests: Dan Pfeiffer and James Badge Dale Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly, and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. The Ringer is launching a new podcast from the guys who brought you a Cespitous family barbecue called Baseball Barbecue. Hosted by Jake Mintz and Jordan Schusterman, they're bringing you the good, the bad, and the utterly bizarre corners of the baseball world and everything that makes it special. Throughout the off season, they'll dive into the rabbit hole on some of their favorite fascinations from the home run derby to baseball brawls and much more. Once the season returns, they'll break down the latest MLB news and developments.

You can subscribe to baseball barbecue on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the riner.com and joining me on the other line, zooming in. It's Andy Greenwald. Hey, buddy.

Happy Monday, man. Pact show today. We were joined by Dan Pfeiffer from Potsave America, our old pal, who's been on the show a couple of times. he only comes on to discuss Homeland and apparently Top Chef. So, no, Dan's been on the show a few times and we talked to him about our shared Top Chef obsession and last Thursday's

episodes. So there are spoilers for last week's episode of Top Chef as well as a couple of other seasons in there. So Tread lightly if you are trying to do a Top Chef rewatch or anything. And then in the second half of the show, I was joined by James Badge Dale, who's one of the stars of the new Stars series called High Town, which I talked about a little bit

last Thursday and really enjoy. It's a really like bare-knuckle, hard-hitting crime drama from Rebecca Cutter and Rachel Morrison and Badge plays a detective who pushes the limits out on the cape. It's a story about the opioid epidemic but also a murder mystery. And it is really gripping. So I recommend people check it out and check out that interview with Badge. I would say also about James Badgedale, I was not part of this interview. But when I was doing the casting for Briar Patch and talking to other actors, he's one of those dudes. He's one of those dudes that all, not all, but many actors talk about, like, the best person

they worked with, the person they can't believe isn't more famous, the person that they love working with. So it's cool that he's got this part lined up. Kaya can attest to this, but when I interview Badge, it was kind of like looking in, like, the mirror I wish I looked into. We're like, you do push the limits. I had this faux stash going and, you know, like, we're recording where we are. he looked like he was like phoning in from like the Robert Eggers Lighthouse, you know,

and had like a full beautiful mustache. It was just like, man, sometimes I just throw the dogs in the truck and drive across the country. And I was like, absolutely, bro. I know exactly. I was like, don't have a dogs or a truck, but I know the sentiment. But we are going to start today's show on a little bit of a, not a little bit, a little bit, a very sad note because Andy and I wanted to pay tribute to a filmmaker who we both really liked quite a bit who passed away over the weekend named Lynn Shelton. And, you know,

Lynn Shelton had kind of emerged out of the early 2000s indie cinema scene. She'd been associated a lot with mumblecore movies and had grown into really a jack of all trade, somebody who could do network TV, prestige TV, still make her own films. Some people might have gotten to know her through Mark Maren's podcast recently as the two of them had embarked on a relationship together and it started collaborating together. And it started collaborating together. And if you want to see a testament to that collaboration, I really recommend people check out sort of trust. One of the saddest things of many sad things about this whole thing, including just how sudden and unexpected her passing was, is the feeling that I got that Lynn was just getting better and just

doing really, really interesting work, the more work she did. And I think a lot of the times people talk about you know filmmakers or artists that they look up to and it's like people who do big important masterpieces or have changed cinema forever or changed television forever

or these kind of tortured geniuses I really looked up to Lynn Shelton because she seemed like a worker because she was somebody who was obviously really dedicated to her craft and really dedicated to trying a lot of different stuff and working in a lot of different contexts

and working in a lot of different environments and working with a lot of different people, moving around from genre to genre. And as you can see, if you start looking at some of the tributes to her on Twitter, from everybody from Ava DuVernay and Louisa Witherspoon to Mark Duplass. And if you can muster it,

Marin's monologue that he gives about her today is absolutely heartbreaking, but is incredibly honest and vulnerable. But you can just tell that, like, nobody had a bad thing to say about her as a person. and there are too few people like that around in the world. And I'm really, really saddened by her passing. I love what you said about the types of CVs that we generally celebrate.

And I think you're exactly right. I mean, one of the more amazing things about her and her work is that she started directing in her 30s. And as you said, clearly loved what she did and loved directing. And it's really, really hard to be a director under almost any circumstances. One of the reasons why it's so hard is because it's just, it's one of those things like, you know, honestly, like acting and there are other fields like this as well, where the thing that you love to do most, it's very hard to do it without other people giving you permission to do it.

And if you look at the arc of her career, she didn't wait for other people to tell her anything. She started generating her own material and working in a way that, you know, eventually led her to being considered part of the Mumblecore movement at the, you know, 10, 12 years. years ago, but also just basically gleefully ignoring rules that said, if you direct an episode of Mad Men, as she did in 2010, then you're a dramatic television director. And so go look for the next dramatic television job. And she didn't do that. She went and directed Mindy Project, and she directed New Girl, because it's all directing and it was all filmmaking. And I think there's

something incredibly celebratory about her IMDB page in a way that's really moving and really special and ought to be noticed and and emulated. And then to your other point, yeah, like, the takeaway from my experience making something was just often this entire industry, this creative industry, it's kind of an iceberg thing where there's so many miles of depth to every project. And what gets discussed is the very tip. It's just the release. It's the final product. And we love doing that and it's fun to do it. And often, you know, you can have really genuine, thoughtful, productive conversations about the final movie. But everything else that went into it matters too. And a lot of the time what goes into it is just the hours of talking

and collaborating and supporting that goes into anything this challenging and risky and hard. And that's what I was really struck by. You mentioned Ava DuVernay saying, you know, she was so kind to me when she gave me an award a decade ago. Colin Trevereaux, who started making indie films and then in a very short order was making Jurassic Park movies. It was like, I idolized her. She talked me through these tough decisions that I had.

Our old friend Ben Gibbard knew her in Seattle and said that she was like the beating heart of the creative community up there with her disposition, her attitude, her good cheer, her laugh. You know, it's really heartbreaking. And to the last point you made one of the reasons And, you know, the people who truly knew her, we did not know her.

Never met her, never got a chance to speak to her, wish we could have spoken to her, let alone worked with her one day. But what we did, so obviously the people who did know her are hurting now and deserve a lot of care and thought, but the merit of it is really, it's really killing me right now. You know, it's funny for us on a podcast to talk about this, but I think people listening know, like there's something weirdly intimate about podcasts. We're in your ears. You know, if you listen to the show, you've been listening to us do this for eight years.

So you know stuff about us and we've been there with you. And that's kind of the way Marin is for a great many more people, you know. And I've talked about it. Like I just, I really admire that guy, not just as a podcaster and as a comedian. And we've talked about his comedy recently. Lynch Shelton directed his really, really excellent comedy special that's on Netflix now. but I just really admire the way someone who was so performatively angry and closed off has just opened himself through his work.

And, you know, last week I was doing the dishes listening to him talk to Cape Lanchet, and he was so proud talking about the person that he lived with and the person that he worked with and the person that he loved and said that she wasn't feeling well, but she had tested negative for the virus. And, you know, it took my breath away. It took my breath away at the thought of someone. someone experiencing loss like this. And obviously, I'm so lucky, we're so lucky,

people are experiencing loss all the time, but it felt weirdly intimate and just deeply unfair. I wonder if that's a testament to her work. You know what I mean? I think that obviously what you're saying is very true. Like if something is happening in Marin's life and you listen to his show all the time, you kind of feel a part of that.

And you could hear her becoming a larger and larger presence in his life. And then in some ways a salvation for him. And obviously our thoughts go out to him. but it's a testament to what she was as a person if she was that inspiring. And I thought that sort of trust was one of my favorite films from that year. And a lot of people talk about wanting to make human dramas that are unadorned with bullshit high concepts or have to pay tithes to intellectual property and stuff like that. And I at once think that Lynn Shelton actually did that.

and I also think she wouldn't be above doing the other thing. You know what I mean? That was my favorite thing about her. If you watch your sister's sister or laggies or sort of trust, you're just like, this person is doing the thing that everybody says they want to be doing. She is putting her name on something and going out and getting, you know, sometimes meager amounts of financing to make the film that she wants to make and collaborate with the people that she wants to collaborate with.

And she got some of the best performances out of the performers that appear in her film. I think she was a great actors director. And then she would also do new girl because that's what fucking real people like is sometimes turning on the TV. And I love that about her. I love that she did four episodes of Little Fires Everywhere and that she did a madman

and she did a new girl in an AP bio. And what a great fun career. What a way to get the most out of life. And that's what I wanted to mention, which was when this news hit, it reminded me that my wife and I never finished the third season of Globe. which is a show that I've loved,

and that, uh, obviously Marin is wonderful on, and that Lynch-Elton had directed on every season of. So we fired it up and we finished the season. And first of all, it's a really special show. It,

you know, it's just like you're saying, it's like it kind of gives you everything that you want. And which is unfortunately kind of what makes it easy to look past. It's a show that is in love with its actors. It's in love with its characters. It's in love with people loving stuff. And sometimes that leaves you,

with that kind of parks and reccy saccharine feeling of like things are working out really well for everybody but that's okay because we love that too honestly um and if you haven't finished the season i really recommend it and i'm excited there will be a fourth season if and when things get well when things get moving again but it's really something that when watching these last few episodes and lynch elton directed two of them i really remembered uh two moments in them because work for hire is work for higher. And you can approach work for hire in a combative way or in a clock punching way. You know, this is the thing I'm doing to get paid so I can go and do my thing. One for us. One for that. Yeah, right. Or like, you know, I get it. Turn the cameras on, turn the cameras off and then hand it off to someone

else. And there's no shame in doing work that way. But in the best cases, it can be a truly ecstatic kind of collaboration where the writers and showrunners and actors have one idea. of how to do things, then a director come in and add to it and be additive. And so I don't know anything about, you know, Carly and Liz from Glow's collaboration with Lynn, although it must have been a good one because they brought her back every season. And there are two moments that I just wanted to call out without spoiling the show. In the last episode, there's a moment when two characters are talking and then one walks away and they're in an airport, and one of the character chases the other character through the airport. Now, Glow is many things, but it does not have an unlimited budget. And I could just tell,

maybe this is my own PTSD, but someone at some point was like, do they have to run through the airport? Because then you have to shoot, you have to find an airport. You have to show more than one room in it, you know? And isn't there another way to sell the stakes of this? And there's maybe even a version of it

where someone gives a note and it's just like, these are just these two women talking, like what are the stakes of this? And I'd like to think that Lynn Shelton, being the director that she was, found a way to shoot it as intended because she respected the material, and also understood.

that the stakes of these two women talking is, that's the show. Yeah. You know, those are stakes. And there was another episode that ended with, and it was an episode where Marin did some of his best acting work, probably no coincidence. And it ends with his eyes open to something, you know, and just being, he gets some good news right after getting some bad news. And it's just a beautiful observation of a performance, you know, and I was thinking of that

moment when I heard him on his podcast today talking about how one of the ways that he loved her was that he had never loved anyone who, you know, made him feel vulnerable before. And that's obviously an incredible thing for a director-actor relationship, but it's also just kind of an incredible thing for the world, you know? And that that's been lost is a real tragedy. Yeah, I mean, I just hope people check out her work if they haven't seen it. And the fact of the matter is people have probably seen it without realizing it. I was, when this happened, my wife is a huge fan of hers.

And my wife is just like, I mean, she had an amazing experience. talking to her once in an interview situation, but she was like, I just cared more about something if she was involved, you know, and that is an amazing currency to have with people. And, you know, I think she did the best morning show episode. I thought she did a lovely episode of Dickinson. I thought she did an incredible episode of Mad Men. So she's someone who I would highly encourage people if they've got a little time on their hands to go back through and check out some of her TV work, but especially her feature work because I think she was just an incredible filmmaker. And I, you know, highly recommend your sister's sister, touchy-feely, hump day, laggies, and especially

sort of trust. All right. So let's get into our conversation with Dan Pfeiffer from Potta of America. We talked about Top Chef. And then later in the show, James Badgedale from Hightown. And I'd like to apologize for my introduction to Dan Pfeiffer. I haven't done an introduction to an interview on a podcast in two years. There's nothing I like more than when we get a guest and then right as it's about to start, I go, go for it, Greenwald. I mean, I think I referred to Top Chef fans as knifeheads. Look, one of these days, you'll get me before school, and I'll be a little bit sharper. Yeah. No knifeheads. But it's great to talk to Dan. And can I just say as we get into it? I'm so glad you watch Top Chef now, Chris. This is so fun.

It's been a boon for our relationship. Let's put it that way. All right. Let's get into our talk with Dan and later our talk with Badge. Thanks for listening. As promised, Chris and I are now joined for what has become my favorite time of the week, our weekly conversation about the best show on television Top Chef. This week we are joined by an old friend who outed himself on Twitter as a fellow, I don't know, TC head, knife junkie, what do we call it?

I haven't done an intro in a while. Tom Head, I don't know. Yeah. It's Dan Pfeiffer. Hey guys, how are you? Dan, welcome. What's up, Dan? You guys surviving?

Yeah, you know, I mean, watching multiple seasons of Top Chef at once has definitely made this an easier, you know, an easier experience. Are you a completest? Have you seen every episode, like up until the one that comes out on Thursdays or do you have any blank spots in your Top Chef fandom?

He's asking, are you a Chris or an Andy, Dan? And I feel like we both know the answer to this. I feel I'm actually in between in that I came to Top Chef late and actually in large part because of Andy and from a piece you wrote in Grantland like six or seven years ago. Yeah.

And started watching in whatever the California season was, I think it was like 2015. And then like got addicted. And then after Trump won, as I was looking for... Wait, what? Yes. Comfort food.

Oh, my God. I binged all of them. I've seen every season except Las Vegas. Okay. Which I know is a famously great one. But that is also like Chris in that he did turn to the show finally after years of resisting it in a time of national crisis. Yes, that's exactly right.

It is like it is always great, but it is better when you're desperately looking. for some sort of joy. Why do you think that is? I mean, this is something that Chris and I've been talking about, but since you had a similar experience a few years ago, what is particularly sustaining

or nourishing about this program? I think it's a couple things. One, it is, it's incredibly well done, just the beats of it work, the explanation and the way they tell the backstory of people, so it's compelling television. But it's a thing where you have people

who are incredibly talented. Like once you get past the first couple, seasons. Every single person who's on there is the elite of the elite. They've all trained for all the best people. They all have their own restaurants or about to have their own restaurants. And they care passionately about this, but the stakes aren't that high. Right. Like, they really want to win. But this is not the make or break of their entire life. Right. Like the $10,000 may help, you know, from some challenge may help with a restaurant. And obviously winning Top Chef is better than not winning Top Chef. But once you've made it onto Top Chef, you've released.

sort of a level of fame that will propel your career. And so, like, caring whether you win, but not despairing just because you lost is like a sort of a, it's, it's particularly endearing, I think, at a time in which, like, the, like, you're living among real world tragedy all the time. Yeah. By that token, Dan, I was wondering, do you, because I, as I've watched sort of non-chronologically, much to the, which raises its own difficulties, because I will sometimes get certain seasons, quote unquote, spoiled within another season because they'll bring back champions? Can I just say for the record for all of our friends and fans out there, I have never thrown myself on a grenade faster than when I watched this week's episode on Thursday and saw that

it spoiled Top Chef Kentucky. My hands were shaking as I texted Chris, warning him not to watch this episode. I have never been more caring or empathetic towards a friend in my life. It was really sweet. You, like, you know, and I have talked to you about Top Chef and I think has some residual, like, knowledge of who won what season you've mentioned people in the past. And I've been like, oh, okay, Vultaggio seems important. But Dan, I was wondering, like, especially with the Kentucky season, you really see that there is like a kinder, generaler, top chef era where the people are a lot more collaborative or friendly or supportive versus those early seasons where it was a lot more cutthroat and a lot more

like, I didn't come here to make friends. Do you have a preference between the two? I like it better now. Now, it definitely went through this transition of going from a reality TV show that was centered around food to a food show. Like in those early seasons where it's like Dale Taldy, like yelling at people or Jen Carroll being angry or like they just, they spent so much time on the personalities of the people and their interaction with each other was all trying to be like the real world or whatever else. And now it's like you get the backstory of the people, but it's intertwined in.

with and also the participants are self-aware of the consequences of acting the way they act like of being of being an asshole when they leave or yelling at Tom and you can see it really this season as people who have been difficult personalities in the early years have come back and sort of I mean obviously they're older they're more mature but they've they obviously have to wrestle with the consequences of being a professional who who acted a certain way on TV which is different than if you are an asshole and survivor or you come off like a jerk in a more, in a world in which the, you know, or the real world world is challenge, whatever it is where, like the next thing is just fame for the sake of fame.

You're still a person who has to exist in a certain industry and a certain professional culture. And it, I think this makes it a more enjoyable experience because it's different than the other stuff that you get from, you know, quote-unquote reality TV. So I promise there won't be more questions like this, Dan. I'm sure this is what you get anytime you go on any show to talk about anything. So not everything has to have a political angle. But talking to you now after these last two episodes, which are pretty interesting episodes in this altogether outstanding All-Star season.

So there was the Restaurant Wars episode, which was exceptional a week ago. And then we had this sort of, I don't know what you want to call it. It was a little bit of a hangover episode, honestly, from it. But in terms of the interpersonal. dynamics, we saw in Restaurant Wars two very different teams drawn, one of just straight up killers that was easily the heavyweight, or at least predicted to be the champion in that, and didn't win because of a very different management style, as evidenced by Gregory and his team. Somewhere in there, I'm just sort of curious about your impressions of also forming a team of rivals,

if you will. I mean, you know, not everything has to be politics, but you are a veteran of working in back rooms with people who may be. had different goals at one point and are now trying to achieve similar goals or at least get on the same page or at least make it through the next service, whatever that is that, that, whatever that's an appropriate analogy for. It was really interesting to watch the choices that Kevin and Gregory made and like it has been much talked about. And it was pretty clear the creators of Top Chef knew exactly what was happening as soon as Gregory picked Malarkey with his first pick. Yeah. Padma reacted the way she did, which almost like,

That is a question would always be reserved for judges' table, not in the, like, I think she must have been so shocked that she felt compelled to ask her why he made what seemed on its face to some as an insane decision. But I think that, and I have a lot of thoughts about this new sort of version of restaurant wars they tried here that I don't like. But, and I'll explain why, but it is the difference between simply going and getting a series of the most talented individuals and putting them together in the, belief that simply the most talent wins. And that could be a sports metaphor. That can be a political metaphor. That can be the building of any organization when you really need people who fit together and sort of understand how to fall under leadership.

And if I was going to use, like the thing that struck me was Kevin made his team like Elton Brand would build the Sixers, which is we're going to get the best, most talented available players without regard to fit. Also the tallest. Yes. The tallest, yes. I'm not so sure. Alton brand is always looking for talent, unfortunately.

It's where Al Horford fits in there somewhere. I'm not sure which of those contestants was watched. But what Gregory did something that was brilliant. And I think this was actually perhaps my favorite episode of Top Chef ever because they, it was like mass, like, and I will stipulate all I know about TV making is from listening to Andy talk about making Breyer Patch. So I have limited expertise here. but that makes two of us but they offered at like a tremendous hint in that episode for what was to come and why he was going to pick malarkey which is they did had that scene where they had everyone awkwardly ask each other how many restaurants they'd opened in when they were doing the pitch

yeah and you know kevin's opened a bunch and some other people open a bunch and some have opened none like Melissa and uh malarkey said he'd opened i think 19 restaurants which like if the task is to open a restaurant in 48 hours or whatever it is, you should probably pick the guy, even if he can be annoying, who has done it 19 times. And as Tom pointed out earlier in the season, is the most successful business person who perhaps has ever been on top chef because he has sold all of those restaurants to some large conglomerate and gotten quite rich. Those hats aren't buying themselves.

No. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Dan, what was your thoughts that you had about the pre-restraint war, restaurant war? And then what made it your favorite episode? I think what made it my favorite episode was the sort of the drama around it and the, and the Gregory's team and how that all worked out. And it was just a bunch of Gregory's team was not the most talented, but they were perhaps the most compelling characters on the show put together. And I mean that as characters, not as chefs.

The reason I don't like this new thing where you're going to have a someone's like there's going to be a contest where you pitch your concept. And then if you win, basically you're you get to like if you win the pre restaurant wars competition, you're basically deciding whether you're going to be one of the two people eliminated the next one. Because if Gregory's restaurant had failed, it also would have been Gregory's fault. Like that is what's different than the normal restaurant wars where obviously if you choose to be the quote unquote, executive chef or front of house, your odds of getting sent home go up. But that is less, you are less responsible than if you were the person who came up with the concept, design the menu, and taught everyone else how to cook those things. And so Kevin was going home, McGregor was going home to other two. So like if they ever do that again, the place you want

to be in is you want to win the quick fire to get immunity and then you want to tank the pre-competition so that there's no chance that you will be the executive chef and then face likely elimination. in the next round. I kind of agree with you because what it did do, and I've been trying to wrap my head around why, you know, this happens with all long-running enterprises. They always have the need to tweak. I think they get bored. It's what they did with the finale a few years ago, which resulted in that disastrous Iron Chef finale that even Tom said was a terrible idea. Sometimes you just kind of want to try something new. In this case, I think the thought process was probably to create a better and more interesting finished product, not just for diners, but for viewers. Because generally with

restaurant wars, when the teams are ad hoc, and they're like, I guess I'll be executive chef, I guess I'll do this. I like to do a Civece. Oh, really, I want to do, you know, chicken pot pie. And then you end up with a restaurant called like flower and field. And it just, and then it's just literally a nothing where they're like, I like this dish and like this. What's in season? Really family style, you know, just let me explain our menu to you. And so at least this, they were very clear points of view as a restaurant. But I agree with you. It created a kind of weird nothing episode beforehand. And then also now if they do it again, increases the chance of gamesmanship in a way that I think we're all in agreement we don't love going

forward. The old way of restaurant wars where basically everyone just makes the dish that they think is best and someone draws a short straw and has to do the dessert generally, unless you're fortunate enough to have a pastry chef who happens to be on that season. But like it basically allows you to do what is the top chef hack, which is what I now refer to, call as the Brian Voltajio, which is you just make good food, really, really good food without making a mistake, regardless of what the actual challenge is. That's his approach, for sure. Yeah.

Which is a good third place approach, I think. And that's what he did, you know, even in the, like, the quick fire on last Thursday's episode was just like, Brian probably made like the best dish, which was like the steak marinated in beans. And it was just like, they don't even like acknowledge it anymore. It's just sort of like his excellence is sort of taken for granted, but it's the fact that he's not doing anything flashy or autobiographical.

It seems like really is a strike against him. That's why I think he, despite perhaps being the most technically proficient and maybe most talented chef on the show, he has a very limited chance to win. It's because at least in recent seasons, you need a story to win. Yeah, that's a,

I was, because I was going to ask you guys if you felt like there had been, there was a little bit of a trend with, and we're going to probably, if you haven't watched the last few seasons, was Top Chef. Like I wouldn't listen to us right now. But I was wondering, because I saw some similarities between the way Brooke and Kelsey won. Now, I know Brooke was a returning player and kind of had that experience. But there is an almost like batting 315 element to like the way they won. Like it was just like really solid throughout the season and making no. mistakes, whereas they beat people who were like, I'm going big. And if the judges aren't, the judges aren't into me taking risks, then I can hold my head high. And I was kind of thinking, like, I wonder whether that's like the roadmap is to just, is to just hit singles to the opposite field for long enough to then really wow people towards the end, but never make any massive mistakes. Yeah, there's definitely a risk management situation about this. And you can, this is one of the parts I love about Top Chef is that it has this, particularly if you've watched, it for many seasons. It has just like horror movie element to it where you can watch the people

make the mistakes you know they should not make. And there's like a series of them that are always, that like are so funny every time where it's like one of them is definitely, well, I've never done this before. Yeah. The old one, it used to be risotto, used to be the thing. Yeah. Yeah. People have wised up on that. And then a lot of quick fires that are like this, this unambiguously takes three to four hours to make. Yeah, that is a classic one of the end, which is, but yeah, but I am going to slam this into a 30 minute challenge. Yes, you, you see that sometimes in the elimination challenge in the end when they have to do something big for some fans. It's usually the last, or the second to last one before you get to the finale. And someone's always like, well,

Beef Wellington takes six hours and I have two. I'm going to see if I can get it done. You're like, well, you're not going to Mexico. It's interesting what you guys are suggesting here, because it's reframing something that we've been talking about in terms of whether it's a cooking show or a reality competition show first and foremost. The idea that you do need a story now suggests that it's less a competition show and more like a TV show, or maybe there's a political analogy to be made here too, because I think the thing about Brooke may have been the last old school winner in that regard, and that she was just quietly dominant and so consistent. And so she's of a piece with someone like Michael Valtagio was in his season or Richard Blaze was during his heyday.

The thing about Kelsey that was so remarkable, I thought, was that they played against our expectations so incredibly. Because every season tends to have a Kelsey type, someone who, you know, maybe worked in the big city for a while but now has moved to a smaller town. You know, she's the one who in the second episode is like, I'm away from my kid. and that's really hard for me, and you're like, well, A, I wouldn't even be able to do what she's doing to be away from my kid, and it's so incredible, and I respected so much, but also they're clearly setting it up that she's going to, you know, be unable to continue for whatever reason. But here she is. She's a young mother. She fits all the stereotypes of people who don't win on the show in the past, and she crushes it. And then you notice, oh, she worked for Daniel Ballude. Oh, she's actually the best person here. And it does the thing that, you know, great, honestly, great art often does, which is totally confound. your own expectations and really challenge your own prejudices and stereotypes. So I thought that was in a class of itself. But I'm curious about this other idea that is it becoming more a TV show? Is that a good or a bad thing? Or is that just the way we are now and how we have to understand winners and losers and who we pay attention to? I kind of, I go back and forth on whether

the story, having a story helps you win despite less good cooking or having a story helps you do better in the competition, not because you have a story, but because you have a home base to go to. Now, these people don't always win, but the ones who tend to do well for a, you know, who make it to the end or do very well for a long period of time, have a home base, right? Like, even though Eric went home early-ish in this season, he did very well in his season because his African cooking was what he cared about, Gregory and his Haitian cooking. And so you can always do it. I think the Brooks season,

is actually a great example of that because, yes, Brooke won, but it was Shirley and Sheldon who had, perhaps, who were some of the, some of the best contestants ever, both as compelling figures and chefs, because they had a very specific set of the very, you know, that your story and your vision may be the same thing. And having a vision helps you figure out what to cook in a very short period of time, right? Because you, you have, you have, you have a home base. I mean, you don't have a home base, and you're just like a proficient, you know, highly trained elite chef. It's harder to choose. But taking it a step further, and this is something I hope we get to talk to him about at the end of the season, if he'll come on the show.

But when Gregory was on the first time, and he was one of the best contestants on that season as well, right from Jump, his go-to was Southeast Asian food. That was what he was cooking in Oregon. That was his specialty. This exploration and, you know, reexamining, but also re-embracing his Haitian heritage, seems to have happened in between these seasons. And it's very interesting. It has something to say, I think, about where the show is going, where storytelling might be going,

certainly where American cooking is going, that he is potentially the favorite now that he is fully energized with his own traditions. Yeah, and I think obviously, like, the answer is what it always is, which is it's a little bit of both. Like, you watch somebody, like, say, I don't know, Stephanie, who I actually enjoy quite a bit,

as a character on the show and as a narrator, but is often flummoxed, especially in quick fires, she'll just be like, uh, and it's like, she's, she kind of spent 12 minutes looking at the pantry.

She's really good for TV, but she obviously, I think the best contestants are ones like, it's kind of almost weird watching Gregory run this season because he's almost got like a play call sheet that he's running. Like he's got like the Andy Reed big plastic menu of plays that he's going to call. call the first 10 and he he executed the restaurant that he actually wants to execute in real life.

Like it wasn't like, oh, I just thought of this. I saw some cool stuff in the whole foods and this is what I think I'll do. He was like, this is my restaurant. And that was partially why I think his team worked so well is because it wasn't open to interpretation or bring your own ideas to my my dishes. It was just do the recipes I'm giving you. I fully agree. I did want to also, I said I wouldn't do it, but I want to do it again. Because Dan, recently, on Twitter. You have some opinions every so often on Twitter. I think that something that you and your POTS of America co-host, John Favreau, have been pointing out, is the need for candidates to not only have a story, but also to identify themselves, the story they're telling, and also

identify their opponent and be able to do that. Can you talk a little bit about where that mindset comes from, why it's so effective and how it maybe applies to these, whoever's left to this so far in the season, six or seven people who were remaining? Sure. I think definitely in Top Chef, which is unlike politics in many ways, which is why I enjoyed so much these days. But it is, I apologize. I'm ruining this for you right now. No, no, no, no. This is great. This is great. This is, I got to get my allotted 23 and a half hours of politics talking every day. So if I can mix it in with Top Chef is a huge win. Okay. And so like it in in politics, whether you're in a campaign or the White House, is it's ultimately about telling a story to the country,

about who you are, what you want to do and why you want to do it, why you're the right person for the job. And I think it matters in Top Chef because you really are, for as much as Tom and Padma and Gail, try to analyze each meal in a vacuum from every other one, they are, they're obviously, just because they're human, but also they give it away in the show level. They're influenced by what has happened before, right? And they sort of, and when you can tell your story in Top Chef about, like, what you care about in cooking and what inspired you and, like, who your mentors are or, like, that you learned it sitting in your grandmother's kitchen like Kevin did,

like that definitely influences who they decide to send home because they under, It helps the judges, as it would help the voters in the politics, understand why you make certain decisions. And that can give you the benefit of the doubt. And that matters a lot. I think that matters a lot in touch. I mean, you can see, like, when Padma has to send someone home that she has tried so hard not to send home, I think the most obvious example I can remember is when she had to send Kwame home in the California season. Yeah. And she like, she had loved him.

She thought he was super talented. and really, I think he had been moved by his story and why he got into cooking. And but obviously because he used store-bought waffles and chicken and waffles, he had to be set home in one of the all-time great gaffs. But telling that story gives context that may help you survive a bad dish. It's also worth noting that the idea that there is something extra to a food experience other than the food, that's not TV magic. That's actually the way the world works. And telling a story, I mean, I hate saying that. We're all passionate about storytelling here in L.A., but being passionate about

storytelling is part of opening a restaurant because you're not just selling the food. People don't often remember the dishes. You're also talking about, you know, you're selling the experience and where the ingredients came from and what it means and why it's being served to you, right? And so I kind of appreciate that that is, that they aren't pretending to be new critics on the judging panel as much perhaps as they used to, that they are. are taking in the totality of the experience. Interesting that you mentioned Kwame, because we talk a lot about chefs who made their bones on Top Chef and became extremely successful from it.

He's someone who, if you only watch Top Chef and maybe don't pay attention to eater or go out to rest – I mean, no one goes out to restaurants at the moment, but you know what I'm saying. You may think that he is a footnote on the show, but he's actually one of the most promising and exciting chefs and business people in the country. And there's a reason why he is in that commercial for the, independent restaurant association that's this newly formed lobbying group, along with Naomi Pomeroy of Beast and Tom Colicchio, because his skill set is enormous and didn't really

translate on Top Chef, nor did it translate to his first restaurant, which was a highly ambitious tasting menu restaurant in D.C. that didn't take. And now in his third act, I guess, in front the cameras, he's doing amazingly. So Top Chef might not be the end-all be-all. Yeah, I kind of want to say that I think my favorite thing about this, and it's strange because I don't like watching other sports on demand or like going and, you know, if I know the result of something or if, even if I know it's already happened, sometimes I find it difficult to watch a tape delayed game. Is that why you didn't watch the last dance? Yeah, skipped it. Tapsdorf does feel like a, it feels like a sport to me. And for as much as we've talked about stories and narratives and how

people need to kind of weave their biography into their food and express themselves with their food and that the judges are keeping that in mind, I like how any, a bad day can send anyone home. And I like how one random good day can put someone on a heater. Like I did not expect Sarah to be in the final two in Kentucky. Like a third of the way into Kentucky, I was like, this person is going home like very soon.

When she got dunked on at Rupp Arena in Kentucky, I was like, she is not coming back from this. Like she's just shattered by this. And she just cooked her ass off for the last half of the season. And almost, I think honestly, that was one of the closest final judges tables I can remember

where they seem to see. say dish for dish, Sarah almost beat Kelsey, but like, they just gave it to Kelsey anyway. I couldn't really figure out the logic per se. But yeah, I really love how unlike everything else in the world where you're kind of taking in all these extracurricular, extra narrative ideas into your evaluation of it, it really does feel dish for dish on this show. Even if you really, really want Eric to stay on the show, it's like you know that he has a time management problem in some of these challenges and that winds up biting him in the ass. I think that's both the sports and like the great TV part of it, which it's like, so the sports analogy, it's like the NCAA tournament, right?

Yeah. Anyone can go home anytime. And that, you know, that's that's proven over and over again, you know, whether it's Duke or Virginia a few years ago. It used to be, at least we know the one seat isn't going home on the first day. And now we don't even know that anymore. But it's also like great TV. It's like the early seasons. of Game of Thrones where anyone can get killed, right? It's every episode's a Red Wedding, right? Where like you, every other show, even reality show, like other reality shows, you have a pretty good idea of who is staying because someone, the most person with

the most compelling TV, who's most compelling TV often stays. But in this one, like, it's very possible that on any day Gregory could go home. He could just literally just overcooked one short rib and he's done. Because I was going to say, well, how would you guys have felt if Melissa had gone home at the end of the last episode. Furious. Yeah. But she made a romaine salad and kind of, I kind of was like,

you know what I mean? I know she made the kanji, but she essentially was like, I'll go last. I'll take like these old greens and like shave some parm on it. For what it's worth, a friend of ours, Liz, was at that retreat. She was there that day. You know how I know she was. It's because she was on camera.

Totally shocked. I was like, this is the most interesting thing in the world and you never mentioned it. She got the last word. she's the one being like, well, that's the best food we've had since we've been here. And so she said, well, the first thing she said was she remembered almost none of the food because they really were pouring that many mimoses. But she said the best thing she ate was the kanji out of the entire day. But I do see what you mean.

And I think that it's worth saying, like, it does show something about Melissa's character, which I think is very high. And also her experience level, which is impressive, but also not exactly on par with everyone else's, in that, she was like, I'll just do something with the scraps, don't worry about it, which is not the alpha dog I've opened 19 restaurants mentality. Yeah, it's not malarkey crying about not having a station, you know? I would say the flip side of it is, thanks to Last Chance Kitchen, is like when Kevin got eliminated for country captain, he was just like, all right,

bet, let's go. And he is destroying. Like, he is, you want to talk Game of Thrones? I mean, he is loot training the competition right now on Last Chance Kitchen. Briefly, we should talk about this episode, which, you know, I alluded to earlier, was kind of a hangover slash letdown from the week before. Not every episode can be restaurant wars. I thought this was kind of, it was fine.

You know, I just don't love it when they have really weirdly limited options. You know, it's good to mix it up. They shouldn't always have the very best of the best. But this particulars of this seemed like they was setting everyone up to fail as opposed to giving the smartest people a chance to win. And then that's how you end up with decisions like no one cooking eggs for brunch. Yeah, I thought it was a huge. It was like I enjoyed it.

I enjoyed literally every episode of TopShap. I can't wait till Thursday. Yeah, but it was like just poorly thought out. Like I'm fine with like when they do the school cafeteria one, which is very classic one, like you got to be, you got to use the stuff in the pantry to make food for kids, which is also has a, you know, obviously a good message to it. But they had to split them up into teams to make it work. You can't tell whatever it is seven people at that point to just go make brunch for all, these people with no coordination and no incentive to work together. Like, you have to either draw

knives, if you will, for who has what part, or, or there have to be two teams of, you know, three or whatever to, like, put together a menu. Because it's just like, if you end up with brunch with no eggs, but a salad, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Still enjoyable, though. I thought that this Thursday's episode also was the first one that I noticed suffered a little bit from the contestants having been on the show before. Because if it was a bunch of newbies, they would have been like, oh my God, dude, are we going to an overnight camp?

That's the best thing ever. And instead it was just a bunch of people being like, do I have to fucking bring an overnight bag? Are you kidding me? Last time I was doing this, I had to go make a pie in the snow. Like, I don't want to do, like, it was a lot of, like, a lot of that.

And you could tell they were also fried from restaurant wars. So they were like, we just got done restaurant wars and now you're going to send us up to the top of a mountain to like do whatever. It is fascinating. I was asking Greenwald about this on text last night about the mixture between returning contestants versus nubes

and how I think that you're obviously seeing just unbelievable cooking from these people and they know how to play the game. But at some points, they are a little cynical about the top chef of it all. Yeah, I think that's right. And that's why I thought the most interesting season was, which one was it where they mixed the newbies?

Colorado. Colorado. Which was great. And I think all the newbies got eliminated pretty quickly. Like bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. It was brutal. Yeah. Which is like, and you can see, like, once you've done it once you have trained for it.

And I remember, I think it was in that season where Shirley or someone said that Michael Votagio had been training her between end of the season. This was Charleston, I think. Right. Yeah. This is the Charleston. When Shirley and Brooke came back and Sheldon. Dan correctly points out the season that was a mix and match and it was half nubes, half veterans. Turns out it was Charleston.

I was wrong when I said it briefly before in something that Kai is going to edit out. And that was really a notable season because there were eight perfectly reasonable new contestants who were just taken out gangland elimination style by the returning veterans. Which it speaks to how Top Chef, like the nature of the competition is a specific set of skills that you learn, right? which, and having done it once helps you probably go in with a game plan of like, here are 10 dishes. I'm definitely going to find a way to do. And I have practiced doing those dishes under time constraints over that time.

You can see the people who practice quickfires, which is, what are your like, do you have a go-to dozen 30-minute meals that you can make, that you can maybe shoehorn into a competition because immunity is a tremendously valuable thing? Or are you going to be the guy who's like, I'm, doing slow and low ribs. Yeah. That's right. We should probably, the other difference when you have returning veterans, especially

once we've returned more than two times, which is the case now, it's not necessarily cynicism, but there's kind of a realism to it. So pour a little out for Leanne Wong, who was on Top Chef 1, then transitioned to being a producer on the show and the culinary producer for the next four or five seasons, came back in Colorado, had a baby, and came back again this season. and I think she pretty much said it in her exit interview. She didn't expect to win. You know, I think she was proud of making it this far

and wanted to prove something to herself and had a good time. And there's something to that, you know, and maybe the thing that's to that is that our history with her is now almost as long as our history is as long as our history with the show. But there's something kind of pleasant about that,

even if it maybe detracts from the overall competition to see people who are in there for different reasons, let's say. Maybe not necessarily the quote-unquote right reasons or whatever, but definitely there for different reasons. that kind of expands the viewing experience.

She was a good one. I wanted to ask you guys before we go, what kind of top chef would you be? Have you ever thought about who your avatar on the show is? Because I think for me, I haven't seen it yet, but I would be disagree with Tom guy. Maybe, you know, like there have been guys in the past who have done that, but I think my big thing would be agree to disagree.

You know, like present like some crushed up pringles, maybe, you know, with some, uh, of some flakes of sea salt and then just be like, you know what? I guess it's not in your flavor palette. I'm sorry. Agree to disagree. I don't know who. One, I am not a particularly good cook, although I try very hard.

So it's hard to imagine myself in that situation. But I would definitely be the overpreparer. Like, I, like, there are a certain thing. Like, I would watch every season. I would write down, like, in permanent ink and put them on the mirror of my bathroom, like the five mistakes you do not make. like do not make Tom boneless, skinless chicken breasts.

Tom does not love crudo. Tom hates okra. Like I would know that. Like do not cook okra. And like certainly overprepare. And because of that, I would probably go home in the first week. I would be the dude.

I was thinking about this, Chris. I would be the guy who like maybe certainly would never win anything. But like in the skate by the first two or three challenges with my vaguely Asian marinades. And then by like week five of a vaguely Asian marinade on whatever the protein was, they'd be like, all right, buddy, your card is pulled. I would like to die on Spice Mountain against Padma.

So you mentioned Padma, and that's maybe a good segue to the last question I wanted to put to Dan, which is one of the fun things, I can't believe I'm about to say this, one of the fun things of the social media era, I can't think of any non-fun things. Aside from the sense of community and like constant feedback where you kind of just always know where you stand with people? Okay. It's great. And one thing I know is that we're all in this together. That's how I feel right now. Padma, like, uncorked has been a revelation. And it's actually changed her performance on the show as well because she is so smart and so funny and so just insightful on so many different topics and just a pretty fun hang as evidenced by her

Instagram live videos. But I did want to pivot and ask more specifically about Tom, who everybody apparently lives in fear of. So, Dan, I don't know if you heard, although I'm sure you're aware of his changing profile in the world and his involvement in politics and lobbying. Did you hear him on Terry Gross the other week or see his New Yorker interview with Helen Rosner?

The Terry Gross one is sitting on my phone, basically waiting to be listened to is like some treat to be saved or later when I find time in quarantine with a two-year-old. Yeah. No judgment. Yes. But I think Tom, like Tom is really, like Padma is amazing. She is just super impressive and is someone who has been in and around.

I have not ever encountered her, but she does a lot of political stuff like separate and apart from which is social media. And it's been a huge advocate and supportive of groups that elect women, particularly Emily's list. And everyone who's been around her is just super impressed by her sort of confidence. and just wide array of knowledge of different things. I think she's great. Tom is, I think, really makes the show.

And because he is, like, his passion for what, for just the craft of cooking and how much he cares about technique and how much he, like how much he wants them to succeed, but is so frustrated when they don't, like a great high school basketball coach. and like it is fun when he, it's happened a couple times.

Actually, I remember when the last time was when he decided that he would cook in Last Chance Kitchen and he just, he's cooking in a quick fire a few seasons ago where he just decided

that he was going to do something in 30 minutes. He does this. Yeah, and he just crushes. And like his commentary, it is, as people are doing it is he sees the whole field in a way.

Like he is still, there's a role than what you do, whatever it is. 17, whatever many years it's been of top chef, and you just become a TV chef, right? You were just a personality. But his, he remains completely and totally plugged into cooking and owning and running restaurants in a way that makes him such a valuable addition to the show. But my real question, would he be a good politician? Do you think, is he a future governor of New Jersey or something? Like, because the thing that was, I've been really struck by,

is he is incredibly connected and plugged in to the whole of not just the restaurant industry, but how food is manufactured, transported, delivered, who gets it, who does, and everything in this country. He's obviously become a lot more politically engaged in the last few years as anyone who follows him on Twitter knows. I definitely am not, like, hashtag he's running about anyone. I feel like it's an insane and very personal choice for anybody. I don't think it's the end all and be all. He can be very effective at any part of government. but I purely just curious from your time in politics, is he an interesting candidate for something?

Do you think that that's in his future? Does he have the skill set potentially? I think he has the skill set to run in the sense that he is incredibly charismatic and clearly very smart and passionate. I think the challenge, you know, we are currently living through the consequences of plucking our leaders directly from reality television, putting them in office. Great point. Great point. And now I would. take Tom Clicklio over our current president every day of the week and twice on Sunday. But I think that there, I like to hope, at least think that we're going to demand at least a certain amount of experience. I do, I could 100% see Tom being a, like an ambassador for food or getting

involved. Like, I imagine if Joe Biden wins, a lot of the stuff that First Lady Michelle Obama did, that Tom was very involved in in terms of promoting healthy eating, particularly for school kids, that Tom could pick up and be a very powerful voice for it because he's as important and powerful as he was in 2009, 2010 when that stuff started. He's exponentially more famous and more influential now and has a much bigger platform. And I would say the restaurant industry is going to have to be rescued by the next president. And I think Tom would be 100% at the forefront of that. And a Biden administration would be insane not to want his help in that. effort. Yeah, I think that what he says, and you'll hear in the Fresh Air interview and what Jose

Andreas is doing as well, is like, they are saying, like, this is all one issue. It may seem like, you know, a thousand little issues, but it's all one issue. And they're mastery over that. And not just in terms of like having thoughts about how to fix it as he talks about how to fix it. I mean, like, it's that easy. But in the Fresh Air interview, he's just like, well, these facilities that make milk only in 10 gallon bags for your university dining hall, like, here's how you could convert that to get the milk to the people who need it, et cetera, et cetera. but their ability to also explain the issues. You know, I just feel like, you know, look, what can I say?

You don't need us to tell you this, but it's all politics. Yeah, my wife said when we were watching Top Chef a few weeks ago, when Tom's PSA came on about saving the restaurant industry, said that if Barack Obama was president right now in the middle of this, he would be talking to Tom and David Chang and others about how you protect the restaurant industry and employees now and how you then safe. open them given, obviously the challenges of doing that in a pandemic era. And I can promise you that that is not a thing that is happening. Well, Dan, thank you so much for coming on, man. It was really a pleasure to talk to you and to talk to you about Top Chef. Maybe you could come

back on towards the end of the season and we could look at the finale or one of the last episodes. Well, let me check my schedule. Yes. This was so much fun. Thank you, guys. I am so, so happy to be joined by James Badgedale on the Watchpod because I've been trying to nail him down for a couple of years. Weirdly, I know that actors, first of all, welcome to the show. How's it going, man? Thanks for having me. I know the actors sometimes resist discussing, like, the connections between roles. But for me, like, over the last couple of years, watching you in Donnybrook and Sparrow Creek and Mickey and the Bear.

and to some extent now High Time, which is coming out on stars, I feel like you are kind of creating this body of work that speaks to itself. And I wonder whether or not we could start the conversation talking about that a little bit, where I feel like these are stories that just are not getting told that much if you're not in them. I'll talk about anything with you guys, man. I'm an open book. So, I mean, what do you think is, is there something about the last couple of years for you where you've been drawn to these parts in these stories,

sometimes very small independent films, what have you, where it does feel like whether it's geographically set in kind of locations that movies aren't often set, talking about people that movies aren't often made about. Have you seen a consistency in that kind of stuff for yourself? You know, it's a really interesting question because I don't think I search that out,

but yet there are things that I respond to as an actor. You know, there's certain types of material. There's certain writers, there's certain directors, There's certain directors. You know, I mean, all three of the movies you mentioned were, you know, Donnie Brook, Sparrow Creek, and, you know, Mickey and the Bear were kind of these really strong writer directors to have this very specific vision. And there's an eloquence to their writing and there's a tonal element that with their writing and their filmmaking, it just seemed to make sense to me. And, you know, I was excited to do all three of those films for, you know, kind of very different reasons. reasons. For different reasons, not for, like, each one had its sort of its own kind of logic behind

it. Yeah, I think, look, Donnybrook, you know, Tim Sutton's just a badass director, and Donnybrook was this very kind of dark novel by Frank Bill, and my buddy Frank Rillo was in it, and that was the third movie we've done together, and, you know, I just, it was just something I really wanted to be a part of, you know, and because, and that movie was very special while we were shooting it, we really felt like we were expanding the material and pushing boundaries and taking risks. And, you know, when you look at Sparrow Creek, that was a first-time writer-director and he was very passionate about his project and he was trying to get this up and running, but it was, he just had this very kind of unique vision. And it was his. And, uh, man,

I'm, I don't know, man, I'm down for the cause, you know? Yeah. You know, three weeks of night. and Texas and that's it man and like you know no one you do this stuff for the love of the game um Mickey and the Bear Annabel Atonazio first time writer-director frightened me that script frightened me and that was a story that frightened me and I thought I had something to bring to it and Annabelle made me feel comfortable I saw that at Texas last year I saw that at South by and I was one of my favorite movies in that festival And I feel like Sparrow Creek is one that, you know, if we still had video stores, that would be one that you're like, if you were a video store clerk, you'd be like, man, you got to check this one out. Maybe it flew a little under the radar, but you really, I would be recommending that to my friends all the time.

That would be like a real cult classic. I remember if I remember correctly, didn't the writer-director for that film have like basically like a Bible for the movie that he had been working on for like years in prep for that? Oh, man. And Henry, I love Henry Dunham. And he shows up at the table read. And he goes, I've been working on this for nine years. And he throws this book down. It was the most complicated.

It was quite amazing, man. He had a, he storyboarded the Bible and it was there. And that was his vision. But, you know, everything was executed according to that. And you want to make his movie. I don't want to make my movie. I'm here to make his movie. You know, I'm here to make your movie.

Like you said, man, no one makes movies like that anymore. That's just a really unique, unique film. Has it always been like that for you where you're like, I want to make your movie? Like, have you gone through in your career points where you've been like a little bit more like, hey, man, I'm here. Here's my idea about the character. Here's how I like to work. Or has it changed for you over the years? Because you're so prolific.

But I imagine like you're taking chances on these first time filmmakers. You're going back to TV with Hightown. Like, how much of yourself are you kind of like, leave? at the door. Oh, man, let's get into this actor process. I like to do a lot of preparation. And then there is this element when you step onto set, you leave all that at the door, you know?

And now I'm here to listen. Now I'm here to listen to you. It's another actor. I'm here to listen to the director and to find that vision. You know, I think, listen, man, like we all can have moments at work where we butt heads and, you know, everyone is opinionated in the film business. but yes.

Someone sat me down about 20 years ago and he was a New York City stage actor and he just said to me, he goes, acting as a service position. It's not about you. If you're on stage, it's about getting the author's words to the audience and if you're on film,

it's about getting the director's vision. So he can go in the editing room and make his film. Yeah. So yeah, I do believe there is, I want to make someone else's movie. I'm not there to my movie. And if I want to make my movie, I'll try to, you know,

write it and direct it myself. Does having experiences with people like Martin Scorsese or Michael Bay make it easier for you to help a first-time director bring their vision to the screen? Oh, that's a good question. I hope so. I mean, when you work with Scorsese

and you work with Michael Bay, I mean, these guys are, you know, I just watched Goodfellas again the other night, by the way. It's never a bad time to do that. It just never, never is a bad time for that movie. I just what a beautiful, beautiful film. You know, Scorsese is just, he's a master. And the interesting thing is that less is more with him.

You know, first time directors can kind of fall into this trap where they believe they have to control everything. And they're setting up the lights and they're doing it. You know what I mean? And the truth is you find, artists that are like-minded. If you're all on the same page, we don't have to talk about it on set.

Everyone's doing the right things to keep this process moving. So Scorsese's very kind of minimalist, man. Yeah. And also you get into this world, and with Michael Bay also, it goes back to your earlier question. Like, what are you bringing to it?

Scorsese wants, he doesn't want to tell you what to do. He wants you to bring all of you to it, you know, with filters. So you just bring all of this to it and you're giving him options and he takes it and goes away. Michael Bay would come up to me, man.

He'd be like, he'd be like, dude, every take is different. Yeah, it's kind of a point, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. You know? You know, but I just, I mean, two very different guys. Yeah, absolutely.

Quiet, likes to whisper. Michael appreciates yelling and screaming. Speaking of Goodfellas, I remember one of my most fond pre-quarantine memories was recently, I was up in Portland, and I went to a bar, and it was like the TV at the bar had Goodfellas on on mute. And I hadn't seen it ever that way, but I probably hadn't watched it like two or three years. And you're just like, you're talking to your friends, you're talking to your friends. And then like out of the corner of your eye, you start seeing scenes from Goodfellas. And then the dialogue starts playing in your mind.

And it's, but I had never watched it without the sound, which is, and it's kind of remarkable, that movie is just like a rocket ship without the dialogue. You're just watching it. You're like, I know exactly what's happening. I know exactly what's happening. It makes total sense. Yeah. All right, let's talk a little bit about Hightown because for you,

this is 10 years since you've probably done a show, like a TV show, right? I mean, I think there might have been some appearances here and there, but it's been since Rubicon, right? I think it was 10 years, man. 10 years. Right. I think you're right.

Yeah. And I know I used to work at a website called Grantlin. and my buddy, Andy, who I do this podcast with, we were both huge fans of Rubicon. So it's cool to see you back on TV. I was wondering what took you so long and whether or not there was like PTSD for Rubicon, like just kind of being like,

you know, that was obviously a passion project for you, I would imagine. Yeah, I love that job. I had a great time on that job telling that story. It was just a great work experience. And it kind of left me at this moment of time of like, well, what do I want to do personally after that? We did one season and it ended fairly abruptly.

And, you know, the truth is, man, I like to travel and I like to play a lot of different characters. I like to do different things. I like to do risky things. I'm excited by that. I mean, you talk about, you know, independent filmmaking. That excites me, man. Yeah. And I was 31, 32.

I was in my early 30s and I wanted to live a different type of life as an actor. And television had been very good to me in my 20s. and I'm grateful for that. I'm lucky for that. But I, you know, I kind of spent 10 years. I just kind of threw the dogs in a pickup truck and we traveled the U.S. and would act for money. You know what I mean?

Yeah. The world. But, you know, in those 10 years, television change. Yes. You know, the medium has changed. You've seen so many writers and directors go into long-form narration. You know what I mean? This idea that people are allowing them to tell their stories.

and I think that's really exciting. So I was, I feel like I was late to the party to come back to TV. You know what I mean? I probably should have done it years before. Well, Rubicon is definitely one of those shows that was like five, six years ahead of its time. And you wonder whether or not like in an age of a Hulu and a Netflix and everything else. Like that show gets a little bit more runway to try some stuff out rather than it's just, it just didn't, you know, on the linear cable that it was.

what about meeting Rebecca, reading her ideas, and talking to her, and also talking to Rachel, made you excited about Hightown? You know, Rebecca's writing got me. You know, I had, oh, man, you just finished doing Mickey and the Bear. I'd been in Montana, and that was such an intense experience. And then I drove from Montana, me and the dog, went through Portland, came down the coast and was just, you know, I just brought a surfboard. from New York. And I was just ditching around and going all over. And I went down to L.A.

And I was like, look, let's read some TV scripts. So they gave me 15 scripts. And it was this high town script. I couldn't get out of my mind. It was like, it just kept playing in my mind over and over again. And same thing happened. I was like, I have something to say. Yeah. I got something to say. I got something to say. I got something to bring to this. I got something I feel like I can work through with Ray. And not to mention, I felt like there was a high. higher cause with this and bringing recognition to the opioid crisis. And there was, it was a world that I knew well. I lived in a small fishing town in New York. And I just, I was taken by Rebecca. And then I met her as a person. Yeah. It's all where she was coming from.

And, uh, you know, Rachel Morrison is just a, I mean, legendary DP camera. She's just, um, I mean, I love her to death, you know, uh, so I was like, hey, let's do it, man. And then, you know, the funny thing is Monica Raymond, we happened to just meet at the boxing gym. Really? Boxing gym in New York, and my buddy was like, hey, man, there's this actor over here, and I think she's doing a TV show also.

And she turns to me and she goes, badge, and I was like, Monica? Yeah, it's just meant to be. That's really cool. One of the things that I love about it, among other things, and I've seen a few episodes so far, is so many shows right now, very obviously are shot.

It's like, There's five shows and they're shot in Atlanta and there's five shows and they're shot in Louisiana, but they might be standing in for Chicago or 1890s or whatever. But this is, it feels very much shot. It feels very much a product of the place that it's telling the story about. And I was wondering how important that was to feel immersed in that while you were making it. I mean, anyone who's been to Cape Cod or, you know, parts of the Northeast up here, it's a very specific thing.

It's a very specific mentality. and there's something very specific coming off the ocean here, man. It's this dark, murky, cold, Atlantic ocean. And there's something very romantic about it. Yeah. So, you know, Cape Cod is another character in the story. Yeah, and I think that it's been portrayed for the most part in the past as like, you know, the backdrop for a Jaws-like story or something.

It's more of a summer getaway kind of thing. But this show really captures that slightly off-seas. vibe, like when people are just kind of like trying to scrap it until it's time for summer rentals and stuff. And I really liked that vibe of the show. For you, I want to phrase this question delicately because I don't mean to suggest anything on tour, but like the cop who's pushing it is kind of like, why do you think that is such a seductive part for actors to play? The cop who's like kind of pushing the law, pushing the boundaries, because it goes from being like, oh, like, you know, there's Simpsons jokes about it.

Right. But it's actually like, it is its own like kind of Hamlet. It is its own guy who's like, if you are supposed to enforce the law, what happens if you are also pushing the law or sometimes breaking the law? Yeah, we always play in these gray areas, you know what I mean? And you're right. It's something that's been done. We've seen it over and over again.

I've played a lot of cops in my life. Yeah. To be honest, I try to stay away from it. But this was a circumstance where I was like, no, wait a minute. I have something different to. And then that's the question you have to ask yourself every day on set. How do we make this different? Yeah.

If we know what this is, nine out of ten times, people are going to do this the same way. We have to be the one out of the ten. We have to come at it from a different direction. And, you know, my thing with Rea Brutzo is that, you know, being a police officer, that's an occupation. That doesn't define him as a person. Sure. You know, yet we all believe ourselves are defined by our, you know, jobs. But, you know, it was finding this.

other thing in him. You know what I mean? That was beyond the, beyond the law, beyond any of that. You know, why was he so obsessed? Why was he so obsessed with Frankie? Why is he so obsessed with his job? Yeah. No, I, and do you feel like in that sense that that's the kind of story that can only really be told in that long form way? Like to get the, the kind of pacing and the rhythm and the tempo of that kind of character development. Like, is that, it's helpful to have a little bit of space to play, right? Yeah, absolutely, man. And you talk about the long-form way of doing the way we're doing it now in eight episodes.

You know, that's eight hours of material. You know, you can really start to explore these other cracks and these different kind of hidden areas that, you know, you just don't have the time for in a film. Yeah, well, I think you guys did an amazing job. I won't take up any more of your time, but it was really cool talking to you. And I really love the show. So congratulations. Hey, man, thank you. Thank you for having me.

and you guys take care. Be safe out here, all right? Take care, brother.