The Watch - ‘Reservation Dogs’ Creator Sterlin Harjo on Saying Goodbye to the Show

Episode Date: October 5, 2023

Chris and Andy talk about the bizarre most recent episode of ‘The Morning Show,’ which depicts the January 6 insurrection (1:00). Then they are joined by ‘Reservation Dogs’ creator Sterlin Harjo to talk about when he knew it was time to end the series (23:33) and how the show has become a singular piece of Native art (44:27). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Sterlin Harjo Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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My name is Chris Ryan. And I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in this studio, vacating his speakership, it's Andy Greenwald. I choose not to run again. Yeah. That's simply it. That's true. Yeah.

You know, I wish things had gone differently. I wish our friends on the other side of the aisle had taken the high road as I have so many times. Too busy pulling fire alarms, brother. Greenwald, great to see you today on Thursday, a special day for us because we have a nice, big, big meaty interview with Sterling Harjo, the creator of reservation dogs, who's just wrapped up its run. Last week, we obviously talked a lot about that, but we were so happy to have Sterling back on the show

to talk all about the show and what comes next for him. Three for three with Sterling. He was nice enough to come after every season. I like that for us. I like that succession, we had Jesse every year, rest dogs. We had Sterling every year. Every year, we have Sam every year. I wonder if maybe I can start a lionist tradition.

Do you want to talk about that? I feel like you're not done. I feel like you're not done. You're also playing a pretty interesting game. I'm not saying you're like Matt Gates in all respects, but I will say that there's something going on in the studio where, look, there's three of us in here. I think we can be honest about it.

Killer Kaya is back. We finally got the power trio back together, yeah. And Kaya announced her return by saying that she is powerful. powering through the Paramount Plus television series special ops colonel. Yeah. And she seems really happy about it, honestly. Look, maybe my future isn't in electoral politics or podcasting anymore. Yeah.

Maybe I should just admit when my time here is done. Yeah, you're kind of like a cowboy watching a model T drive across the landscape, you know? Yeah, Andy. We were trying to think of what to do for this little opening segment that we had here today. and I kind of randomly just mentioned this to you and you just you took the bait. I have to tell you. Yeah.

So I mentioned to Andy, my wife and I are devoted watchers of the morning show. You have such a rich off pod life. Where I watch television. Yeah, it's weird. With my partner. Frankly weird. And we enjoy it.

We enjoy talking through the episodes and laughing and cringing. But this episode that just aired this week, called, I believe it's called actually Love Island. Is that yeah, I think what it's called? Yeah. This episode was something really special that I needed A.G. to weigh in on it.

So by way of opening this up, not only will be spoiling the morning show, we will also be spoiling American recent history because that's what this episode really takes on. It's kind of a riveting. Kind of like a forest gump for 2020 through

2022, I guess. Andy, you have not watched the morning show since the beginning. The first episode? You quit after one episode of the morning show. No, that does sound like me. That really does track. I guess what I want to do is make myself available to answer any questions that you made.

All right. Great. Number one, where's Steve Correll? He died. I heard. I did know that. He died. Not before making a documentary with his Italian lover that would not exonerate him

from his misdeeds, but just sort of goes a long way towards, he tries to explain himself. I guess I was, I was a little confused by this episode for a number of reasons. I think one was, it seemed to be like powering through

the events of 2020. Yes. And I didn't understand where that fell into the chronology of the morning show. Happy to explain it. So the morning show now, like as of,

this season of the morning show has been set, I would describe as the time the dawn of the Ukraine war. Fantastic. As sort of that conflict kicked off. That's where we are. Are they pro or con? They're just reporting the news.

Oh, good, good, good. So, hence, Andre, who is the sort of war photographer boyfriend of Mia, the Mia character in this episode. Do you know any of these characters, even though you just watched this episode? Nope, keep going.

He is now currently in Ukraine. he's shooting the war. Is he going to be stunned to see his brother there on the front lines, and then they will go to a hotel room to talk about how his brother ended up fighting a war in Ukraine, or is that just what happened at the Capitol? Okay, so you're giving away the most important part, which is that Bradley, the character played by Reese Witherspoon. I spent a really good few years forgetting that Reese Witherspoon plays a character named Bradley,

but I'm back. Bradley Jackson, the fireman. cracker of a morning news anchor turned evening news anchor. She is... Honey Chung-esque. Spends the first part of COVID quarantining and broadcasting from Montana

with Julianna Margulies' character who they are in a relationship together. Oh. And then once she, they have like a big fight when Bradley's mother passes away from COVID. And there's some class divide. There's some red state, blue state stuff going on.

And then Bradley quickly goes to DC where she is going to just embed herself and just kind of just check in on the certification process of Joe Biden winning the election. She just wants to see what's going on. And when she gets, you know, when the Capitol riots happen, Bradley is filming on her iPhone inside the halls of the people's house. Chris, side note, is there anything iPhones can't do? Oh, yeah. I hadn't even thought about that. Well, there's this whole interesting subplot of this episode where she deletes the footage of her brother rioting in the capital. But the really, the part that the show seems to be most interested in showing

us is how the upgraded version of I Photo allows you to select certain images and delete them from all your devices. What a fantastic company. But please, go on. Well, until the FBI comes calling and asks to subpoena your footage to put together their cases against... What footage, bro? Yeah. End-to-end encryption. So what did you think, man? I thought this was bat shit. It's crazy. It's crazy. I can't imagine what it must have been like to just jump right into this. Do you know, like sometimes you hear about what billionaires do, like how they entertain themselves.

Like, and I imagine it's all like the deadliest game is man and they're like hunting on their islands and they're like, that makes sense to them. That's not what I would do. No, I, no. I would just play FIFA. You would just be calm and happy. You would buy a club. Yes. And play FIFA from Skybox.

That's right. With your oligarch pals. The reason I say that is because this entire show is just such a flight of fancy for a trillionaire company. Like, they really go to New York with a cast where each person is making a million dollars. And then they're like, what does this club need more of? Another striker from PSG or whatever for John Hamm or Julianne Marguerese. I was watching this episode, I was like, Greta Lee and Natalie Morales are just here. And also just that it's honestly it's sorkin-esque in all the worst ways where they're walking past people during COVID doing like street rave with headphones and they're like, wow, so weird to be living through history.

And then they just get to do this. And then they show iPhones and then they do another one. It is a wild, wild thing. But the fact that someone, just like a group of professionals were like, We owe it to the viewers of this program to really, like, get under the hood of recent events. See, this is the thing. To put our characters through it. And not just that.

It is the, for me, and this is one of my biggest, biggest pet peeves of anything in entertainment or anything Hollywood related, where they're like, something massive happened. Our audience probably won't understand it unless there's a personal angle to it. So, yeah, did, like, a group of armed insurrectionist thugs try to open. overturn a free and fair election? Yeah. What's up with Bradley's brother? How can we make the story? He's struggled with drugs.

Yeah. I'm just giving you the update. Oh, I see that. And that's our guy from Mayor of East Town, Joe Tippett. Happy to see him. He's not really, I guess, his hang dog expression is becoming a little more villainous, I guess. Sure, yeah. Through recent roles.

But he's married to Sarah Borellis. Did you know that? I really didn't. Yeah. I just want you to know that I know about Joe Tippett, even if I don't know about the show. I think that's very cool that you know who Sarah Borellis is married to. Yeah. I mean, it's just a Wikipedia page that I personally curate.

Edited, edited. Because the thing is, you watch a lot of TV with your wife, and I think the assumption is you do that because you have more free time than I do. You do, but it's not because of parenting. It's because I maintain a robust Sarah Borellis fan community. online. You're modding. Yeah.

Let me tell you something. The thing that you were rejecting in this episode is actually the thing that I am not a fan of about the morning show. The thing I like about the morning show and enjoy watching is when it is a soap opera set within a television network.

And it's Billy Cruttup's Corey character and Billy Crotup is doing some very special things with the art of acting in this show. But it's much more interesting to me when it's the machinations behind. who's going to host the morning show, who's going to host evening news, which producers or whatever.

And the impulse that this show seems to have, like you mentioned, to be the clearinghouse for all headlines that have occurred over the last two years from hacks to sexual harassment within the workplace, to the Ukraine War, to COVID, to the January 6th insurrection. All these things don't need to be in the same show.

While I do understand that if you were doing the news, you would probably be aware of all this stuff. To me, it is the worst kind of storytelling arrogance, and it is really why I also hated the newsroom, which is just say like... You got real serious stuff. No, I mean it, because then I have something sillier to say after it, I promise. January 6th was a major fucking deal. The consequences of which are still being, like, not just litigated, but experienced

by everyone, and people have deep understanding, awareness, and opinions about it. We do not need to be spoon-fed it as being. background footage for Bradley's personal relationship with her brother. It is, who gives a shit about that? Like, if you want to talk about this story, tell us a story. Like, actually make a show about the brother character and his journey or whatever, how he ends up there. Don't be like, I was just following my friends.

I got to protect my brother. I'm going to delete the files for the FBI. It was, it was trash. It's absolute trash. But I do really want to know what you think would be a cool Jan section. Joe. Well, honestly, like, just like a cool one. Just about some friends. Like Logan Lucky 2.

Whoops. It's Jan 6th. Like, what are you talking about? What I mean is, if you want to understand something about, like, American masculinity in the 21st century, you can watch Breaking Bad. Which was not about like any one larger political thing. It was about one guy's ego. And it was also a genre show and it was funny and it was compelling. and it was entirely itself, but it did have things to say

about something larger because it started smaller. The problem with these these inflated shows is that they start as big as possible and only get bigger. And I feel like then you're kind of screwed. You're not telling a compelling character story

and you're not telling any kind of interesting thematic story. What I do care about and what I was really happy to be back with, this is honestly the truth, is Billy Krued up's performance as Corey. The scene where he goes to the beach to talk to John Hamm,

you remember how this might be dating us a little bit, unlike everything else we ever say or the references we make. But do you remember when MTV would have like rock and jock events? Sure. So they would have these events where like Dan Cortez or whomever would like pick a team of softball and you play the softball match

and it would be MC Hammer and other like relevant celebrities of the day, but then it would also be Chipper Jones or whomever, like Dionne Sanders even, like actual professional athletes. And what was amazing about that, this is that during their day jobs, they were like the very best of what they did. They could focus, they could zero in and hit the 100 mile per hour fastball. But they knew that rock and jock softball

was not major league baseball. And so they could get real sloppy with it and have a good time. Sure. And just paint. You know what I mean? Just like spray the infield. And that's what crude up's doing. Because he can act his ass off whenever he wants. But what he's doing here is so elevated. I wonder what it's like to act with him because it's just like, he's like nipping at people's ankles like a little chihuahua with his like line readings. Like it is really something special to behold.

The way he approaches John Hamm on the beach would make, like I felt uncomfortable for John Ham because I don't think he was just like oh, because we're shooting in Malibu, that'll be fun. But it's supposed to be Long Island. Dilley's a great guy or whatever. And then he shows up and just is

it's an almost absurdist choice in every line. I wonder how long this show is going to go on for. I can't believe it's still going. I mean, Rees Witherspoon, Jennifer Anderson, John Hamm and Billy Crudap are in this show.

Like, it is a real thing. Well, and remember, like, this was, I think Apple bought the book. This is when they were getting into script. Yeah, it was about, but it was supposed to be like a gossipy, like the cutthroat world of morning television. Well, this was also came from an era

before Apple really had any plan for what it was doing. And they bought... Yeah, one of the funniest things about the credits is like the four different pages of executive producers. Yes. Well, Michael Ellenberg, who had formerly been to develop an executive at HBO and brought us things like the leftovers. Left HBO started this company, Media Res. He optioned the book by... Brian Stelter. By Brian Stelter. And they hired Jay Carson, who had been... had worked in politics, right, and had worked with Bo Willemann, who had also worked in politics.

And I think the idea was that it was going to be kind of a no-holds-barred look at how the new sausage gets made. That version of the show never got off the ground. But even before there was someone adapting it, they had already hired Reese Witherspoon and Jennifer Aniston for a guaranteed salary of a million dollars each per episode for two seasons. Then they added Steve Carell. Then they've renewed it for a third season, which probably met some. kind of renegotiation. It's a wild amount of money. I don't know whether or not it actually is the signature show in terms of viewership. I would imagine Ted Lasso is obviously like the biggest success Apple has. I wouldn't be surprised of hijack gets more viewers than the morning show. But as a calling

card. That they're in business with big stars. Yes. I imagine that it's a very important feather in the cab. I wish I could be more constructive about a show I've watched 42 minutes of in the last four years. And I so I don't really feel like I could be. I think that there is a breezier version of this that I think would actually be really, could be really good. There's no shame in,

like you, I don't know, how did you just describe it? Like there was a sudsiness to it. Yeah, no, it was, I think that, so earlier in the season, in this third season, one of the reasons why I think my interest in this show is a bit revived

was because it was ridiculous. John Hamm is basically playing Elon Musk. They're trying to get him to buy UBA to bail them out. Right. of not only a financial crisis, but also a leadership crisis, a fight between Corey and the Billy Creditup character

and this chairman of the board. Played by? Holland. What's Sarah Paulson? Yeah, Hollandale. I thought you were saying the reanimated corpse of Lawrence Olivier. Billion dollars an episode. And then the season opens with this, you know,

Musk-esque character is doing a sort of space launch, like a kind of almost a commuter space launch. Great. And Jennifer Anderson is supposed to go up in this spaceship and do like a bit from outer space. And she bails and then Bradley Jackson has called in to do it. And for a second, the cliffhanger of the first episode is they lose communications with the pod. Oh, no. While live on television.

Oh, no. And I'm just like, Bradley Jackson is in space. this is where the show needs to go. Is this why the other week when we were coming in to do the podcast, you asked me if I would go to space? Yeah, I think it was. I'm honored. You asking me that reminds me the time I was in Albuquerque,

and someone was like, hey, I don't know if you're sticking around this weekend, but there's a really cool rock climbing wall downtown. And I was like, this is the most generous thing anyone has ever extended to me that you thought I would want to go on us. But I would rather fly to the Eagles next in LAX and then turn around and fly back. Yes, a billion percent. But you would go. Would you go to space if you got the opportunity to go over?

The bigger question is, would you delete the footage of me at Gen 6? Would, yes, that's a hypothetical. I guess. Do you think that all shows should eventually go towards January 6th? I think all shows should be forced to account for what their character's actions were on that fateful day. All shows, including your precious Taylor-Sharrtonverse shows. You might not like what you learned. Like the Gilded Age?

Yes. January 6th, 1891. It's a normal day. Little did they know. Sorry, did you do a little bit of a, what was your Taylor Sheridan joke you just made? Do you think my characters? I think you'd be surprised who was there.

But then again, I feel like Fraser Crane might have been there. Yeah. What do you think? I think it's possible. Entirely possible. I think some of those billions guys might have gotten red-pilled over the course of the last couple of years. I don't think they would have gone, though.

Yeah. But I feel like they would have been like... Maybe they would have underwritten some podcast networks. Yeah, they were just been like, this is a false flag. Yeah. Well, this is a good conversation to meet into our reservation dogs. Are you going to watch the rest of the morning show season? Like, this is just a show you watch.

Yeah, I got to tell you something that is a fun thing that I do in my house is I settle in and watch an episode of television with my wife. I feel a little bit, it stings a little bit when you say it like that. No, I don't mean in any kind of weird way. I just mean it's just a show that we both get a kick out of. But when you fire up your TV, are you like, oh, great, look what's up? a new episode of the morning show. Yeah.

Do you watch it right away? No. It just, you let it pop up. Although this one was somewhat spoiled because everybody was just like, Jan 6, Bradley Jackson.

But I just, I don't know the, I just wonder about the, you just don't have as much time as I do. It's not, let's, take me out of it for a second. You've got your fan pages.

You've got, you've got Borellas cons. There's a whole new season of Girls 5 ever to account for. I don't know where I'm going to find the space. What can't she do? The waitress touring company is on the, Exactly. I write, you know, scene-specific reviews of every touring company.

I just want to see... What's her song? I just want to see you be brave. It's the one that Katie Perry ripped off, right? Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's not be firebrands here. I feel like that. That's been litigated. It hasn't actually been litigated. I think it's actually been more of just sort of like, we all know what we know. We all know. But Sarah's like, I'm a big fan of Katie. Yeah. She's clearly a big fan of me. Okay. And my chord progressions. Do you think...

My phrasing and my general air of positivity. Do you think... I mean this sincerely. Is there a show that, like, wrestles with January 6th, 2021, that would do it well in 2023? I don't mean, like, tell me which show. Oh, is it possible? I'm not like, this fool season three will finally get to it.

I just mean, I just think, I don't understand the decision-making process, or, frankly, you need some ego and ambition to make any... I don't question that. I just mean like to think that you can say something worth saying or definitive about this event. Not even for like the political optics of it or the sore feelings, but more like we're just too close. I don't see how you can dramatize this. It's an event like many events of the last 10 years specifically that is so well documented

with video cameras that I don't really know what could be added to the story. Well, there's some members of Congress who feel the videos paint a video. very different picture of the one that we think. Yeah. So maybe there is room for narrative, speculative fiction. You sound intrigued. I just wanted to do some research. Should we get to our Sterling interview or do you just want to like just talk about?

Do you think he's psyched about what we talked about before? Well, one thing that we learned from our talk. Into honoring his amazing television. One thing that we learned from our conversation with Sterlin is that he has someone sending him our podcast. So I feel like... He'll probably get this later. Yeah. And I think, I mean, like, once January 6th is put to bed, you can finally listen to it.

No, I just think it's... When it's Jack Smith wraps up. I think that what we're saying is someone... Kind of squirming so much. ...will send him just his portion of the podcast. And he'll be like, why does this start at minute 21? And they'll be like, please don't worry about it. Please, please, please don't worry about it.

You know, as a lawbreaker myself... I'm just kidding. Wow. Greenwald, great to see you. I can't wait to get into this Sterling interview. We'll be back on Monday, and we're going to be talking next week. We're going to probably hit the first couple episodes of Loki on Monday, I bet. But we will be joined next week by Joanna Robinson.

Great. We're going to do a little bit of a Marvel State of the Union gut check and also talk about her new book. That's great. Yeah. And at least two of the four indictments. As many as Joanna wants to talk about, honestly. Fantastic.

Thank you to Kyia, who's back. And I feel like, wishing she wasn't. The show has that steady hand that we've always required. We'll be back on Monday. Everybody have a great weekend. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime.

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it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me, the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms apply. Andy and I are so, so happy to be joined by Sterlin Harjo. Again, Sterlin is obviously the creator

of one of our favorite shows of the last five or six years reservation dogs, which we were bereft when it was announced that this show was ending Sterling. and I was curious if you could tell us a little bit about the decision-making process to wrap it up after three seasons because I read some other interviews you've been doing it over the course of the week and you were talking a little bit about how did the decision come once you were already rolling on season three you decided that three would be the final one I remember in the writer's room having like running the room and I was just talking and it coming up like it just kind of fell out of my mouth because of the way that the stories were going on. And I remember everyone just kind of did this pause of like, it makes a lot of sense,

you know, and then we moved on and kept going. Because I had originally thought that I might possibly do a 70s season. And so I was going to stretch that season out into the, to the, like, fourth season and then, like, come back for a wrap up on five. So I'd always plan on going about five seasons. And then, you know, FX was not into that, and just like, as far as like not having luck, leaving the main characters for a whole other show for a season, you know, which I understood.

So then writing this, it was like, oh, well, then this is, it just kind of started happening. I mean, I think I listened to your last podcast where you're like, I bet he wanted to end it after two. I had no idea. Like, I thought I was going to five. But then as we were writing, I was like, oh my god, like this is such a good ending.

And I mean, to be honest, I was kind of like, I mean, look, like, you all know show running is a really hard job. Oh, and also like all of your people are counting on. Yeah. Like, because it's the first show ever. Culturally, it was like this crazy high wire act that I felt all the time. And any small mistake for me. I would have came falling down that from that wire. You know?

So I'm sure that had an influence as well because I didn't want someone else to tell me it was over. Like I would take it so personally if FX came to me and said, yeah, time to wrap this up. Or even like critics and audiences told me it was time to wrap it up. Like I was just like, because it's so personal, like everyone's based on people in my life, I literally sort of created my childhood. like the tone of my childhood and a lot of the stories from my childhood are in the show so it would be so personal

to me not only that but like the cultural significance of the show would be so like an attack on me for someone to be like yeah this is kind of dragon you know like it would just be awful I was talking to my cousin last night and he was laughing because our other cousin he was like I think he's your show's biggest fan because he's watched it like 50 times

like the whole thing you know And he was like, I like it. And I watch it a few times. But like he's watched you like 50 times in a row, like the whole three seasons. And, you know, he was like, because he's like if you were from where we were from, like all of that. Like it's got to make more sense to people that were from. And literally he's talking about the one town that we're from. And I've had even other cousins.

Like I was at a funeral the other day. And a cousin of mine that was from Holdenville that from my hometown Holdenville that moved to. a town in Ardmore, which is a similar town. It's just in a different part of Oklahoma. He was like, man, I love your show because all that shit is real. Like, and he was like, my kids have never understood it because they grew up in Ardmore. And he was like, but now they watch the show and they asked me a lot of questions about stuff. And I'm like, yeah, that's the way it was. And he was like, I'm afraid to come back to hold the... He's like, because all the shit that we used to talk about and the shit that used to scare us and the deer lady

and all this stuff, he's like, I don't even come back here unless it's like a, like a funeral. You know, and he's like, but it's nice because my kids get to talk to me about it. And I get to remember all these stories and tell them. So like, there's so much of it that is like tied to real life. And yeah, it just becomes like, hey, I'd probably never make something so personal again because of that. Like the stakes are just so high, like as far as like, like, like, like, like, like, criticism, him was heightened. You know, it's like,

if someone hates it, I'm like, oh, like it's me, like you hate me. You know? It's hard to like separate myself from it. But with as far as the ending,

like it once it felt like it, it was like, oh yeah, this could be it. And then the first person I called was Taika. Because, you know, we don't really work on the show tightly.

Like we check in with each other. You know, we see each other at award shows and like things like that. And we catch up down again. But like, I wanted to call him since we came up with this together, you know? And so I called him and I was like, man, I'm thinking about like ending it here. I talked to Garrett, the producer as well, I told him.

And then I talked to Taika and I was like, I'm thinking about ending it here. Like it feels like it should be ending here. Like it feels like the natural place for it to end. And he was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, do it. And he was like, I feel like, you know, Americans are the only ones that drag shows on forever. Yeah. He's like in other countries, they stop it at some point, you know? So I was like, okay, well, I'm going to do that.

And then I just slowly started telling the writers, like, I'm thinking about this. And then, you know, there was a big shuffle. We were riding down to the wire for season three. There was a big shuffle of some stuff. And dig got moved from like episode four, you know? Oh, no way. Which kind of like gave it all of this other stuff, which like I didn't like. and then we shifted it, and then we started shooting,

and then we hadn't even written big yet, and then I had an episode that was like, people love the show, and that's really awesome, and I think that, I hope that everyone understands how hard we work on it, because the writing is where that is. You know, like all of the production and directing and actors, that all has to work too,

but without the script, we don't have the show. and we just like poke holes in it like we're just kind of relentless with it and I'm relentless with it and I can always tell if something's bugging me that it's not genuine it doesn't feel right like he's just like eating at me the whole time

and so the episode where they break Maximus out I wrote that in one night like a week before like we had another script but it was too earnest it was just too like

you know, too spiritual and like let's learn from our elders type of thing. And I was like, ah, it's not working. And so I literally like, I had that idea. I wrote the first draft and one night. And I remember I just put like Oceans 11

and 12 and like whatever. I put it on the background and just like, I remember I started, I started writing at midnight and I finished at 3.30 in the morning and I just hit sin to the other producers. I slept in past, past our start time. I woke up and I was just like,

I hope that made sense and it did. And then we worked on it and kind of got it ready to shoot. So that's how we were going and moving through the thing. I think it was interesting to me to hear you say that you heard us talk about how season two felt like a potential ending point, but that was never in the cards. I have people sending me your podcast. Like enemies or friends?

No, no, no, friends. But I did love that there was a bit of waffling this season where it was like, what is happening? Yeah, well, that was cool. I love that. I think we found out that we were very parochial reservation dogs watchers in some ways. Like, we were like, this is about the kids, you know, and this is about bear and this is about these kids.

And then we basically had to take the mushrooms and expand our mind about what the show could be about. Right. But just that idea that like. I love what you said about the finale too. It was great. Like, yeah, like, it was funny whenever I was hearing some of that. I got the podcast set to me, like, all at once, like, somewhere.

It was right before they bust Maximus out of the, before episode eight. And in my mind, I was like, oh, I just, I hope they hold on a little bit and, like, wait for, you know, there's some interesting stuff coming, you know? It's like, they can go either way, you know? But that was, I mean, I mean, I think there's two things to think about there. Like one is that like you earned our trust, you know, and I feel like the first season, especially the show, was such an incredible experience to watch because we had no idea what the show was or what it could be. And then to watch something find itself, you know, that it could be about this character or that character or someone in the background that we don't even know about gave us some patience, you know, to even if we were a little confused in the trees, that there was the bigger forest ahead. But that idea that like the question asked in the pilot, right, that these kids need to make peace with Daniel. and they want to go to California.

And then they do that at the end of season two. When you got the writers room back together, knowing that that sort of, again, very TV 101, what is this show about, was done. Did that feel exciting? Did that feel nerve-wracking? Or was this the opportunity to show us what the show is always really going to be about?

Yeah, I think it was an opportunity to show you what the show is always really going to be about. I think my interest lies in the community and all of these peripheral characters. you know, like I love the kids, but they were like the vehicle. You know, there's this really great, bring to mine who passed away. And when we were just a comedy group, she was such a supporter. And it always felt like people were kind of like undercover supporters of ours

because we could get raunchy and stuff. And it was always like, you know, like the more sort of stank grin, like we're going, oh, what are you? Like, you're really funny. But like, I only say this alone, you know. But she was always this big advocate, and she was an older woman. She was a basket weaver and a really well-known basket weaver. She had Gashorn and she said, you know, I love that what you do.

She was like, I love that what you'll do is you'll have messages within your comedy. And she's like, that's what I do. Like, I make baskets. But like, and they're a very nurturing item. But like when you lean in and look in the basket, there was always like messages or like even like, even like words or photos like kind of weaved into the weaving of her basket. And I felt like that with this show where it's like the kids were this vehicle to tell this broader story about our community,

you know, and the functionality of it and people's roles in it. And it was also fun at the end of season two where we were like, oh, we've written ourselves into a corner. Like, how do we get out of this? You know, and like that was kind of a cool challenge.

And there were like, and it's funny, I don't know, the way that the show is set up, anything that is, anything that, for some reason, like it's the way the rhythm of it is, like anything that feels like you've seen it before,

gets really magnified. You know, like, I remember at one point we were like, maybe like, Allora, like, I think you guys might even said this, but like, we're like,

what if, like, Alora gets an art show? I think you all said art school, but like, what was like, what if Allura gets an art show and has an art show in the city and like meet someone.

And it was like, oh, that's so gross feeling. You know, it feels gross. Like it doesn't feel like this show. And so, you know, a lot of times it's a challenge to not do that. And, you know, the big challenge when we got to California was like, well, how do they get back? And is it a whole season of them getting back, you know? And like, do we go to another res?

Like, are we going to expand the world some? Which is like the show that focuses on the kids. But, like, I was so interested in the kids and their community and kind of how the lessons that they learn. And, I mean, there's a moment when Quana chasing horse, who's playing young Irene in the 70s, and she's in the back of the truck when they're all kind of tripping balls. And, like, she's talking about boarding schools and, like, how sort of anti-indigenous they are because they fracture the relationship between the elders and the kids. and that is the most important relationship in an indigenous community

because it's inherently lessons are being taught both ways and I think that that's what I wanted to get to, you know? And that is why Maximus came into this season. And I always had this vision of like a Mad Max character like someone in a desert like shooting a character in the neck with a tranquilizer. And we have this like plot of like I think it's like, it's only like 20 to 50 acres, I think, maybe.

Maybe it's more, but it doesn't look that big. Maybe it's like 400 acres. I can remember. But the salt plains in western Oklahoma is like the moon. Yeah. And so it's like, well, that makes sense. Like, this guy could be living near there. Because once you go outside of the salt plains, like it doesn't feel like the salt

planes. It just feels like a small town in Oklahoma. But all of a sudden you have this like big patch of white sand. and if you're on it, it feels like you're in space. And that's, you know, I just wanted to kind of disorient everyone and set that there. I don't know why I'm talking about this part because that's not your question, but yeah. Well, no, it's interesting because you probably heard us say this before, but I think I was really thrown and moved by the very, it's kind of like a quiet, quietly radical idea that

the show that we thought was about kids escaping and were sort of all these decades of entertainment have taught us that that's a good thing, that we should be rooting for people to escape a parochial small town or whatever. But your show was the opposite. It was about them feeling more and more connected and finding their roots. And one of the ways that you communicated that to us was showing that everybody was a shit-ass kid at some point. Yeah, I love that part. It just feels like there's echoes of these kids that go back throughout time, which is, I think it took me a minute to kind of get the rhythm of it more than it was. There was any problem, like, problem, like, problem with like, oh, like, the house made of bongs

is just an incredible piece of television, but like there's like this hunger you have for the mainline story. And then once you see it in totality, you're like, oh, because they were those kids. Like the elders were the kids. The mythological figures in their lives were the kids at one point.

Like we were all kids. We were all shit asses. Yeah, I think like, I mean, you know, I think, I mean, my whole, interest in that lies with that I've grown up in this very tight,

very large community. And I mean, every one of my films I can look at and there are people that are no longer here that are in it. And that's from my short films all the way up until reservation,

in reservation dogs as well. But like I can look at all of those films and it's people that had my back and were part of my community and they were elders and they were like we don't know what this guy's doing. No one has made a film here before. Like, no one's made a film about our people before.

But he grew up here. And we saw him at funerals our whole life. We saw him at gatherings our whole life. He was always annoyed because his mom made him shake everyone's hand in the room right when he walked in. And my mom drugged me to everything. And because of that, they all sort of trusted me and supported me.

And, you know, and also, and those are just people that aren't my family, but also I have this giant family of people that were always in my films. Like the lady, I said this in an interview, but the lady that was based that Mabel, like, you know, Mabel's episode was based on my grandma, but also my great aunt,

who catered my first short film, you know, and she was known as this great, like everyone knew her as this cook. And in my film Miko, she actually plays this vision of the character's grandma, who's cooking in the kitchen. And so, like, anything I wanted, she would be there for. If you needed me to cook, if she needed to be an extra,

if she needed to be a bigger role, she would do it. She's done it. She's speaking with my phone barking water. And when she passed away, I went to her house where a lot of the family gathered, and I remember just thinking like, man, who's going to do this now? Who's going to take care of people? Who's going to cook for people now at these gatherings?

And I just like, without missing a beat, all of her granddaughters were just taking care of people. doing exactly what she had done my whole life. And they didn't have to be taught. They were just, they saw her do it. They knew exactly what to do. And they just, without missing a beat, took over. And that's what I wanted to show in Mabel was like this gathering and watching these young girls, like, just kind of step into this role of like taking, and some on the finale too.

And I don't know, like when you grow up in such a tight community where, like, there's no separation. between the adults and the children. Like, we're all hanging out. And you're all going to these funerals together. These funerals are a big deal because it's like family reunions. And I don't know. They've just always been there. And I've always just been so interested in every older person in my family.

They taught me how to tell stories. I mean, like, I think Reservation Dogs is very much based on that type of storytelling, which is very on paper, very small things. happen, but the way that they're told are big and like filled with love or hard or humor or sadness or whatever. And it's what I tried to emulate in my all of my career. But I don't know. Like, you know, I think home for Native people is very interesting and tricky.

I mean, like literally the, and it means more than maybe someone else. I'm not saying for everyone, but like, you know, the, the ancestors of these kids that they're portraying are Muscogee people and Seminole people. They were all marched on the trail of tears by Andrew Jackson and the U.S. government, kicked out of their homes and moved here to Oklahoma. And at the time it was Indian territory. And our stories talked about thousands of people dying and drowning in the Mississippi River and people fucking fighting to get here.

And children mostly dead by the time they got here and elders mostly dead by the time they got here. and elders mostly dead by the time they got here. So the only people left were the young people, like the people that could survive. And that is like sort of this unspoken pain of like almost losing who we were because the people that teach and the people that learn are gone. And all you have is like the people that could survive

this winter trek for months and months to Oklahoma. And so. You know, and that's also being displaced from your home. And so there's all, you know, this reservation life, there's always kind of this, what does home mean? Well, for me, home isn't necessarily the location, even though that's important, but the people that have kind of raised you, you know? And these people have raised the reservation dogs.

Like, like Leon can try to give advice to Allura, and help her out, even though it's not his daughter. They've all kind of been there for each other. And I love that Laura's leaving because everyone wants her to leave. It's like what they all saw that her mom didn't get to have. Like her mom didn't get to leave. And so all of them, I feel like are very happy that she's going. But the idea of her going and not forgetting where she comes from from this community,

I think is what I was trying to show, you know. I wonder if that, I was going to ask about specifically a Laura's journey. And if you think about it, not just in terms of the season, but in terms of the series, desperate to get away, feeling like she has to be back, and then realizing that it's not a binary, that there's a third path where you can take home with you and you can return home again and that life isn't as dramatic as it may be in a teenager's mind, that you can maintain both. I found that really moving. But also, I wondered if in some ways that tracks your own experience with making the show.

you know, that you can have made this, you can make other things, but it's not necessarily the end of one story. For sure, it does. And I feel like the finale was a lot of me talking to an audience too. We're going to go, but it's going to be okay. You know, like, always be here and like we can always come back. You know, like I felt like that's what I was doing. It's like, I'm going to hug all of you for 38 minutes or whatever, you know.

and because it's such an important show and I'm really happy that like the broader world or whatever loves the show but like for Native people it is like it's so big and it's so so big and like it just feels like this gasp

of relief of like wow we've been like choked for like decades and decades and decades of not being able to just be proud and show and see ourselves on the screen. Like everything is so false that has ever been about us. Even Yellowstone.

I mean, like, all of that shit is just like, it's all this like idea of what white people want us to be. And that's what's sold for a long time. And we fed into it ourselves and we have for years. So that we can just kind of relax and wear our Willie Jack slides and gym shorts and be like, man, this is great. Like, we finally don't have to protect ourselves from whatever we were protecting ourselves. Like, we can be ourselves. Can I ask you like...

And that is very important. I don't mean to cut you off. I just feel like one of the things that's been really impactful for me and for us, you know, is I feel like watching your show has educated me so much about how to approach Native Art and to think about community. I don't know if you heard us talk about this, but Chris and I both saw this exhibit at the Whitney in New York by Jean Quick to See Smith. And there is a really beautiful. And also, like the Basket Weaver friend you were mentioning, it was beautiful and it was really funny.

And that was so thrilling to see. And I felt like your show had helped me understand that more. And there's a series of paintings that she made called The Survival Series that talks about, in her view, like the four traits that help people survive. and they are wisdom slash knowledge, tribe slash community, nature slash medicine, and humor. And I feel like that's a subtitle for the season three of your show, basically. Oh, for sure. For sure. No, that's pretty spot on. It's funny because I think that like the humor, I don't know, like the humor is so big. I think that's what was really strange about growing up watching

films is that that's why I love Chief Dan George and a little big man he's always like thinking he's dying telling people he's going to go now and like he's never dying like he was like this beacon of hope

where it was like oh shit they got a funny Indian like they got a funny native dude in there like we're all like everyone I know in my life is hilarious and it's never shown you know like Gary Farmer Uncle Brownie is more than

norm in native communities than anyone. You know what I mean? Like he's so, that's normally what all of our uncles are like, you know? And I think I've told you this, but, you know, he's named after my dad. My dad,

uh, you know, likes weed and specifically weed edibles. And my dad was always, is always like building a Harley or taking a Harley apart or, you know, it was funny because if you look at the second, it's the IHS episode of the first season.

my dad showed up. And this is before anyone knew who Uncle Brownie was or anything, like the character. My dad shows up and he's an extra in the waiting room at the IHS clinic. And he's literally, without trying, he's just dressed as himself. And he's dressed just like Brownie. Like he's got like a cutoff sleeveless jean shirt. He's got like a bucket hat on, like a military bucket hat.

And he's just like sleeveless and like jeans and like looks just like Uncle Brown. Like the real version of Uncle Brown. you know um but yeah i mean i think this stuff is so uh i don't know man it's it's overwhelming because people are so proud of it and it's overwhelming because i got to do it um yeah and it's amazing i mean it's like i don't know you know it's it's it's really um gratifying i don't know i've had a career of really low budget films you know where i didn't make money and i didn't make a living and i was always in between weird housing situations you know like my daughter who's 22, she goes to Pratt.

She was talking about my housing situations. She's like, yeah, like, we were always good, but like, dad always had some fucked up houses. Like some, like some friend of a friend's house that like their furniture was still in it, but I was living there with her. I was like, ah, welcome home. And, you know, it was always just like crazy like that. So I don't know.

Just coming from like being this independent filmmaker. And there's a lot of people that call themselves independent filmmakers. But then there's truly independent filmmakers. I mean, I didn't make a film over $200,000 ever until reservation dogs. Like, I mean, we were just like, and a lot of the crew that was on reservation dogs, that's who I made it with. And we were just like, however we need to get this done, let's get it done. Dude, one of the coolest things about going to Tulsa was like almost everybody I met was like,

oh, yeah, I was an extra in this Sterling movie or on dogs. We're like, I got to act like Gladstone. And I was just like, this is fucking amazing, man. every one of these people is like kind of involved in this. Oh yeah, all of them. It's crazy. I mean, everybody. I mean, like, you know, I met a director. It's so funny because it's like there will be a director coming to town to scout. Yeah. And they might get a hold of me.

I'm like, oh, yeah, like, let's meet up. And then like they send me a selfie with my brother, who's a location guy, who picked him up at the airport to like drive to scout. You know, like it's a family ordeal for sure. I wanted to ask a little bit about this thing I think I've probably asked a lot of TV creators because there is a model for a show where it becomes basically the bucket for everything you're interested in. Like there is a version of reservation dogs that could have gone five, six seasons,

had a 70 season, had many more like late night oceans 12 inspired heists and whatever else. And you could have just been like, you know what, is the banner under which we all fly these different stories. So I'm kind of curious as to what else you want to do? Like what's kind of like tickling your fancy right now that you're like...

That's a big part of like what I want to do is do other things. Yeah. You know, like I mean, I think also because I come from a filmmaking background, like, I don't just want to make one thing. Like I could

if I didn't care. enough. Like if I didn't care as much and I was like, oh, okay, I'll do the pilot and then I'll let you take the rest and run the show. That would be one thing. But reservation dogs, I wouldn't do that with. Like, it's too specific. It's too

something that I needed to be involved with through the whole process. And I was involved in every bit of the process. So I couldn't have let that go. It was just too important to me. And not to say another show won't be as important to me, but it's not as like high stakes culturally for me and personally for me.

I'm doing a show with Ethan Hawk. I'm very excited about that. He and I've been, like, collaborating for a while. We met because he has a graphic novel called Inde, about the Apache Wars. And I somebody, Martin Sinsmeyer gave it to me, actor Martin Sinsmer gave it to me. And I read it.

I said, this is awesome. And so I approached him about adapting it. And so this book was made from a script that he wrote. And he wanted to tell the Apache War story because he was really interested at it from a young age, from a native perspective, like the natives are the main characters. And Hollywood wouldn't make it. Like everyone was like, ah, like what about this general? Let's make him mad, you know, famous, whatever. I mean, you can tell from the first drama that was made.

It's like, it's about Geronimo, but it's literally about everyone else. And so I talked to him about it. And the way that I pitched adapting it is like from a storytelling perspective of like, who gets to tell whose story. You know, and so it's sort of this framework with this story of Geronimo, which is a badass revenge story. And so we started collaborating on it together and we sold it. And that place that we sold it to quickly became. dissolved into thin air. So it's ours again.

But through that, we just became good friends and worked together and write really well together. And so Reservation Dogs came out. And he was like, oh, my God, I love the show. I'd love to be in it. Like, if there's ever a part from me, let me know. I was like, well, of course, like, you're going to get written in now. It was like, you know, we obviously started watching like when Debris talk to Debrie, you know, I wanted Debrie to write it since she was in it.

and, you know, suggested watching the before sunsets, because it was just like two people walking and talking and awkwardly trying to connect. And that's what the whole thing was inspired by. And then, you know, I did like a sort of, oh, she loved it. Debrie's like, I mean, like, like what you see on screen is like her,

as far as just an artist in general. She's just very, very, very. talented. And like, you know, as a director, which she directed this season, like, I mean, so prepared, like, makes you ashamed of yourself prepared, you know? And she's just like, she can do anything. She got pulled away for a feature that she was doing. And I did a sort of Ethan Hawk pass, you know, in his voice just from knowing him and knowing his films. But like, you know, she's brilliant. And I actually, like, you know, she's a person that I, It's funny because she's got this like three, she's like a three-headed monster where it's like, you know, I can, I have days where I think, wow, I want to, I want to get Devery to help write this or to write this script or then I'll be like, oh, Debrie could direct that.

Or then I'll be like, well, I want Debrie to be in the film, you know. She's so, so talented. But so Ethan and I just, you know, became friends. And then I sent him a script. and I won't tell you the title yet because it's not announced or anything, but I'll just say that my favorite film is the Long Goodbye.

And I never die for that movie. Yeah, I can live in that movie. Like, I love it. And so it is inspired by that, I will say. It's sort of my long goodbye. And Ethan is going to be in it. And I'm very excited about it. It's going to be really weird and different.

So, yeah, I mean, like, then he came down and was in the episode. and just an awesome, awesome person. We have, like, so many projects together. I feel like, yeah, it's like you meet a person. It's like one of those, I think it's a, it's like an artistic relationship you always wanted where it's like, you hear about these things,

where it's like, you know, and I would, you know, like having a friend that's a really good writer and just really smart and gets it, you know, it's like you can't, buy that kind of friendship. I can hit him with references and we're sort of in the same wheelhouse as far as what we like, you know.

I have a sort of a summing up question for you, but it's going to start in an untraditional place, which is our mutual friend Kirk Fox, who loves being talked about in any capacity, especially on podcast. I'm sure his hair is standing. He's very aware. And basically, he's great on the show

and was great from the first season. And was very funny, you know, right away because he's a very funny guy. And, you know, from when we first meet him at the junkyard, and he'll have a, the character will have some occasional lines that are a little bit appropriating, you know, about the native culture that surrounds him. The journey of that character towards where he ends in the finale, where he is fully a part of the community. And he's with the elders. He brings the shovels.

He brings the shovels. I mean, there's a couple eyebrows directed his way, but he's welcome. You know, I thought was a perfect. encapsulation of the show because it's very funny and it's very idyncratic but it's incredibly generous you know and i and i guess i just wanted to sort of drill down on that the importance of that spirit to you because you know even speaking listening to you talk about going to funerals and then thinking you brought us to a funeral in the finale and you showed me things that i didn't know and you welcomed me in and i felt really lucky to be there right yeah i mean and you know first that like the

finale, like all of that is exactly what happens, you know, like there's not like a false, I'm not like changing anything. Like if anything, I left a lot out, you know, because that's exactly what we do. And it's even more involved where like you go to the funeral home to first pick the body up and you have to sing as it's being taken out of the funeral home to the to the hearse and then you say words and then you leave and then where you see them meeting them outside of the church is where you would, that's where you're driving to from the funeral home. Then you meet outside the church. Then you sing to bring the body in. And, um, you know, there's a wake service and stuff. Um, but yeah, all of that is like, I mean, that, that, um,

digging the grave is like, it's just a really interesting. I've always just found it so interesting because you do it and you're digging a grave for someone you love. And it's so funny. I've seen, I've, I've shed laughter tears digging graves. I've also. seen cousins almost fight. I've seen people really upset and lashing out. I've seen people talking to them and hugging them and talking them down. I've seen everything around this hole in the ground for someone that you love. And humor is the thing that is like the most, that prevails the most in that situation. It's so funny. And you're just laughing all night. And you're delirious because you've been staying up all night. But yeah, I mean,

there's so much like cynicism. and sort of, I don't know, like there's so much segregation, and that's just not how I grew up, you know? And, you know, we had people from all races and in my family. We have them, and like, and at the funerals, you would see that, too. And it's just people that are accepted in. And, you know, like you, I think that native people are very generous

as far as, like, absorbing someone into their culture. I mean, literally, if you look at history of, like, kidnappings of like settlers and and then like you know the government always goes back and gets them and and captures them and takes them away they're always like we want to go back like like we were fine there like can we go back and live with the natives

and it's like a very like once you're once you're in you're in and I think that through the span of the three years it's like Kirk Fox character was a genuine human being you know I'm like It would have been very easy to go, look at that guy, the, um, thinks he's native. And it would be easy to make fun of that. But like, that comes from a really good place from that character, you know?

Like he's trying to connect and like reach out and sort of, um, be a part of this community. And by way of the kids, he is involved and he does become part of this community. I love that he gives that like speech at the end of episode eight about community. Like, like, like, I was just like, who, you know,

like the one person or, really kind of like sum up some of like what the show's about and where where the lens is pointing was Kirk Fox's character, Kenny Boy at the end. I just think that's really funny. I love Kirk. I love that character. It'll be hard to see some of that stuff go for sure. Well, Sterling, man, I just want to say thank you so much for joining us today. And, you know, I know that you have a very special place in your heart for things like you've spoken very lovingly about before sunrise and dazed and confused and the long goodbye. I think the highest compliment I can pay you is I think you've made a new

generation's version of those things and that people will grow up being like reservation dogs is the reason why I wanted to make art. So congratulations, man, because it's a really, really huge achievement. Thank you. I appreciate that. Thanks so much for joining us. Reservation dogs is obviously. Oh, sorry.

I should interrupt you. Oh, no, go ahead, man. Go ahead. Sorry. We're just going to say come back for all the next. Come back whenever, man. Right, right, I will. I'll come back.

We look forward to it. All right, thanks. Thanks, dude. Thanks, Charlie.