The Watch - ‘Reservation Dogs’ Creator Sterlin Harjo on the Season Finale, Plus ‘Andor’ Episode 4

Episode Date: September 30, 2022

Chris and Andy talk about the universally bad reviews for ‘Blonde’ and other “car crash movies” (1:00). Then, they break down the fourth episode of ‘Andor’ (24:01) before Andy is joined by ‘Reservation Dogs’ creator Sterlin Harjo to talk about the Season 2 finale and the show as a whole (36:01). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Sterlin Harjo Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Yossi Salick, and I'm the host of Bansplain, a show where we explain cult bands and iconic artists by going deep into their histories and discographies. We're back with a brand new season at our brand new home, The Ringer Podcast Network, tackling a whole new batch of artists, from grunge gods to Power Pot pioneers to new metal legends and many, many more. Listen to new episodes every Thursday, only on Spotify. Did you know about one in three people with Plexeryasus may also develop source. psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, gusalcumab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate

to severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before a treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphia.

Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interests that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going.

Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me on the other line,

absolutely reeling from his performance review from the ISB. It's Andy Greenwald. We used to do this on video, and the people would have seen you just flashing ones. Like, you're intimidating me with your money roll before we started today's podcast. For some reason, my wife left a bunch of small bills by my computer, and I don't know what it's in payment for or what I was supposed to use it for, but I just thought I would throw a little bit of make it rain for you a little bit.

Welcome to... He looked like Fat Joe in the... make it rain video. That's right. It's Thursday's episode of The Watch, a special one today. Andy and I are going to be talking about the fourth episode of Andor and the season finale of reservation dogs. And then Greenwald has an interview with Reservation Dogs creator Sterling Harjo that I was sadly not able to make. But Andy, I can't wait to listen to it. How are you doing? Beautiful day out today. It's a good day. Thoughts with those in Florida who are not having a good weather day. It's just confounding. The difference. I mean, I'm sorry to be like Mr. Basic Guy looking at

Doppler, but it is really crazy what is possible within the span of one country and one day. So where do you want to start today? I was, I had one bit of news. I didn't prep you for this. I just wanted to throw it out there. Right. I, you know, I have some British background, so I like to think of myself as a bit of a tea leaf expert. Yeah. I'm going to tell you something that I think is happening here. Okay. Have you read any of Jeremy Strong's press for Armageddon time? not like especially this week's. I didn't read any. I feel like I get the bit.

You know what I mean? Should I have been reading it more closely? I see the covers. I see the face. I see the pull quotes. You know, yes, he's serious,

but he can still laugh. You know, I get it. Now, fool me once, full me twice kind of stuff. I understand. But you remember like earlier

last season succession when we were like, if this is the end for Jeremy Strong, it is the boldest, bravest decision that I've seen a prestige television show make

in a long time. And we wound up loving the finale. and we wound up loving that season. So it wasn't in any way that. We thought Kendall was done. I think this is going to be a rap for Jeremy on this next season. Based on like the,

I was just reading like the T leaves from these interviews where he's talking a lot about like other projects that he's working on. And how even in this article it mentions how he shot Armageddon time in like one of his few breaks that he really gets from succession. Because when succession is up and running and going, they are basically like they air and then it's like they usually shoot I believe they're shooting season

for now right? They are shooting yeah but there's some of the stuff that they were talking about so I guess he's doing a 9-11 a Chernobyl style 9-11 drama with Tobias Lindholm

Chernobyl style it's with Plan B which is Brad Pitt and D.D. Gardner's company and D.D. Gardner is a secondary in the Hollywood Reporter article I believe and she talks about how like Jeremy and I are talking a lot about like what we can do together post succession. Yeah.

And I was just like, I just feels like the sort of, I don't even know if this is a spoiler. I even know if this is news. I just thought I would bring it up because I thought it was so interesting. Interesting because you think they're not being coy about his upcoming block of free time or what it means for the show itself. Or they're, but they're very, I mean, obviously I think Jeremy Strong is going to be in the Oscar race. So I think that there is a degree of which drum beating is going to start now for Jeremy

strong getting nominated for Armaged in time. I'm not sure if that. I guess that would probably be best supporting actor. But in general, I thought it was interesting because like a lot of this stuff is going up against the New Yorker profile. Like it's basically not necessarily disputing it as much as being like that was a fucked up time for me and it was kind of weird. And, you know, I in lots of ways I don't really take back anything I said in the New York article, but I didn't agree with the portrayal of me or whatever. But then like I just thought it was kind of fascinating to see somebody sort of plot out their post, maybe not their post-scession career,

but be like, I have all this other stuff on the hopper. I mean, I think there's, yeah, I think it's interesting too. I think there's two camps of thinking about this. One, Jeremy Strong, even his closest friends, colleagues, and peers will say is an ambitious guy. Yeah. And there is a proud, rich tradition in television of minted stars. I mean, Jeremy Strong was a respected and working actor before Succession, but now he's an Emmy, you know, he's a thing.

He's an Emmy-nominated guy. And TV actors who become suddenly get the calls and the offers who are already ambitious are generally start chafing around season three, right? They want to go do the other things. They want to do the movies while they're being offered to them. They want to be known for more than just the one thing. They want the credit for themselves. So that's normal. And I would feel like he would be doing that regardless.

I also think on the flip side of it, Jesse Armstrong, creator of Succession, has been pretty blunt as well in his specific vision for the length of the show. And we've never heard, I don't think, Casey or Francesca or anyone else at HBO, clap back. You know, like famously when Damon and Carlton with Lost were like, we need to end the show after season five. And the head of ABC was like, hmm, counterpoint, season 10. And then they compromise. I mean, I don't see that. So I think that it's pretty much in the ether that Succession will be done after.

five. So it's possible that this is all just... They could do that. Yeah, that's entirely true. But the wild card that I think you're alluding to that we love, and I'm sure we'll be talking about weekly when the season starts, season four, would be Succession Without Kendall. It's that this show is masterful. And the trust equity built up by Jesse and his writer's rooms is just unparalleled. So I don't really want to see Succession without Kendall. but should that day come, it will be a decision I will trust and support in, right? And be eagerly anticipating what's on the other side of it.

So that's rare, I think, because usually when you see stars making moves or talking about getting out, you're like, well, they're going to sink the show behind them. They're going to scuttle the ship. And I don't think that's necessarily the case here. I have one other question for you before we get into Andor. How interested are you in cinematic car crashes?

Not the actual act of a car crashing in a movie, but when you hear about a movie that seems like, so in the case of blonde, which is coming out, I believe this week on Netflix, it's the Andrew Dominic movie about Marilyn Monroe starring Anna Darmus. And Big Pick did an episode on it earlier this week.

I encourage everybody to go check out. But is one of the more savaged movies by a major director that I can remember in terms of it being like, it's not that this film doesn't make sense or that there are plot holes or that the production was obviously cheap or unfinished or whatever.

It's like literally, I hate this movie and what it has to say. And I was curious whether that kind of stuff, is supposed to a much lesser extent that happened with Don't worry darling, where it was obviously a lot of off-screen drama and then some pretty lukewarm to hostile reviews. Do those kinds of reactions to movies

make you want to watch a film more? Clarify. Big pick. That's the movie podcast. It is, yeah. Is Sean still cranking that out? He is twice a week. Good for him. That's great. It's a great question.

I think, first of all, I thought that I was interested in cinematic car crashes until I watched the last Anna-Darmus film with Ben Affleck. Oh, yeah. Darkwater? The erotic thriller. Yeah, yeah. I took no pleasure from that. Like, I did not enjoy the badness.

You know what I mean? Like, that did not fill me with Schadenfreude or life. in this case, this is a tough one, right? Because I think that the idea of like a directorial overreach or it's just like ambition and vision crashing into the reality of execution, like that could be interesting, right? Like Heaven's Gate is a film that is worth seeing, even though it has become synonymous with cinematic disaster.

Well, it crashed a studio. Yeah, Heaven's Gate itself is actually quite a beautiful movie to watch. And, you know, if you have the patience, is quite rewarding. And I'm a fan of Andrew Dominic's work generally, but I have to say that this one is hitting in a Venn diagram that makes me not want to see it because the reason people seem to be upset with it is that it is brutalist, right? That it is just like torture porn of an icon. And I mean that in the theoretical sense, not necessarily what happens to Anna Darmus' is Marilyn Monroe on screen. It's being compared to Passion of the Christ, yeah. Right.

Yeah. that's a tough one. I mean, it's also, part of me, the part of me that usually talks with you in the first 50 minutes of these podcasts or we're just like, man, we missed the old days of the industry. I mean, every time something slips loose from the algorithm controls, I kind of got to give it some credit. Whether it was confessed Fletch last week. By the way, did finish it finally. Did not see the ending where John Hamm flies away in the back of the dragon. Like that that sunk the budget right there.

A lot of questions about his parentage, but yeah. And who ended up on the throne? Unclear. Or in this case, whether it's just like a exacting director without a history of like commercial success, but, you know, obviously aesthetic and creative success, like just somehow gets the purse strings loose, right? Like that rarely happens. He, it's really, there's a couple of pretty sensation. Andrew Dominic interviews.

There's one in sight and sound that is hostile or it's contentious in a way that you rarely see quote-unquote celebrity interviews anymore. And it's this journalist for sight and sound just essentially like calling Andrew Dominic out not even on some of the like I guess social or worldview points of the film, but like straight up on the aesthetics of it or some of the decisions made. And it's him going, but they're going back and forth. And it's obvious that Andrew Dominic knows a lot about what he's talking about. Clearly, he's a masterful filmmaker, but he's also, like, deeply immersed in the mythology and

the lore of Marilyn Monroe. And it's an incredible conversation. But, like, in that interview, I think he says basically, like, yeah, like, Netflix, like, writes you a check. And then they're like, when can we upload this, essentially? But also, isn't this interview, isn't he also, like, no one watches Marilyn Monroe movies? And the interviewer's like, yes, I watch these three. And he's like, why would you do that?

Right. Yeah. That's so crazy. Are you going to watch it? No, I got to admit, just personal facts about me, don't care about Elvis and don't care about Maryland. Chris, this is why we're friends. I've never heard it stated so succinctly. I don't care about those people, and I never have. Is it, are we uniquely?

I'm not bragging. I think that that might be like a deficiency. Like, I can't truly appreciate the work of Grail Marcus kind of thing. But like, I don't really, like Elvis is never. meant anything to me. Well, he was a hero to most, I believe. That's right. To quote a better writer and thinker than either of us on the mic.

Boy, it's really interesting. So I see you, by the way, and I see what you're doing. You're about to pivot into talking about television shows of the week as if that was all of the news. And I appreciate it. I respect the gambit. But your silence on this issue cannot ring out on this podcast any longer. For too long now, Chris, you have been mute on the subject of the EPEX channel rebranding itself as MGM Plus.

And I will not stand for it. Yeah. If you follow Bill Simmons on Twitter, he addressed this. And he addressed whether or not he and I were involved in the sort of rebranding of epics turning into MGM Plus. And it's flagship show, the Lillahhammer, so to speak, of MGM Plus. is going to be a show called Hotel Cocaine. Is it? Hotel Cocaine or Cocaine Hotel? I mean, which one would you, if I walked in and I'm just like, look, I got this show and broad strokes, it's about a cocaine-filled-hilled hotel or a hotel filled with cocaine.

Is it called Cocaine Hotel or is it called Hotel Cocaine? No, it's called Cocaine Hotel. It has to be. But what is the actual show that they're talking about called? Hold, please. Kaya, could you put in some Chernobyl music while I search this? Real-time Googling. Because I was going to say like the Jeopardy music, but don't we always say, Kaya play the Chernobyl music?

That's when we do Iger counter and we talk about Bob Iger. Oh, well, look, it's the same geniuses who are like, nobody understands epics. What they understand is a defunct movie studio with a plus symbol at the end of it. It's Hotel Cocaine. Terrible name. You know what I don't understand? Cocaine Hotel. Cocaine Hotel.

I'm watching it. Yeah. I thought Amazon bought MGM. They did. So you read these articles, and they're like, this is a brilliant streamlining of Amazon's product across three broad categories with freebie, ad supported, Amazon Prime Video, elves, I guess. And now MGM Plus, Forrest Whitaker and Cocaine Hotels. Look, it's tough out here for any media service. I'm only partially joking.

It's just they make worthwhile things. I'm sure they will continue to make worthwhile things. I want people to keep jobs and I want more and more shows being made in opportunities for creatives. it doesn't this feel like a we honestly don't know what we're doing move in the sense of I don't know there are a couple of these recently that stand out where it's just like the boys in marketing

need to take five you know what I mean like they've been locked in there with K cups and ambition and impossible deadlines for way too long maybe like two or three more too many days at the cocaine hotel too many maybe a few more you know maybe they get like a three night package It is these decisions that you could just feel the flop sweat emanating from them,

and they just don't make sense. Like, the biggest example of this for me recently, Chris, was, and it comes from epics as well. Now, I know, again, because you've been deeply invested in the epic story for a while now, you have been diligently watching the first two seasons of a show called Pennyworth, which was a flagship show on Epics. Now, in the studio stuff and Warner Brothers and Discovery and rebring, branding, this show has now moved to its new home, which aligns it with its studio and with all the other IP drawn from this same well for its third season.

The third season of this show has now been officially titled Pennyworth, colon, the origin story of Batman's Butler. I mean, I don't have any jokes. I can't make that better or worse. But they obviously must have gotten some feedback where people were like, I'm not watching a show called Pennyworth. And then they said, could I interest you in a show about Batman's butler, though? Well, then call it Batman's Butler.

You know what I mean? You cowards? Like, come on. How can we bring Cocaine Hotel and Batman's Butler together? Also, the, well, I think you just offer him like a spa treatment. It'll show up. I just feel also strongly about that. I felt this after watching The Batman, as you know, I did.

Like, I'm all for giving pre-existing legacy characters more compelling backstories. But that backstory being involved, just uniformly being, they were in the special forces. Yeah, yeah. I'm not buying it. You know what I mean? Also, just like straight up when, I mean, my, I think the most memorable Alfred that I can remember is Michael Keynes. And him just being like, I won't bear another Batman. You know, like, that is like, I don't think of him as a young.

S-A-S-soldier. By the way, this is just like the trip with Steve Coogan. Like, that was just, I can't even compete with your Michael Cain imitation. But why does everyone have to be an... Chris, who's going to stand up for the butlers who just want to buttle? You know what I mean? Like, shout out. We're joining fellows.

He should speak up on this. Like, just ironing a Chris pocket square and dressing an adult man without smirking. Those used to be skills in this country that we respected. You know? the origin story of his butler. What if I could learn out of polished silver? Come on. I want to talk about the origin story of the galactic rebellion.

I'd rather do that. I'd rather do that. Before we do it, can I just say really quickly? We try to make recommendations on this podcast when we can. And there's a book out this week that Andy and I both read and adored called Stay True by Wausu. You may know Waa from his work in the New Yorker. He wrote frequently for Grantland.

He has been on this podcast before when he appeared on our 1997. and music special all those years ago when we were just like doing that out of an office at sunset gower. Shout out to Tate. And this book is extraordinary. We hope to have Waugh on very soon to talk about it. But if anybody's looking for something to pick up, it's a memoir about Waugh's time in college for the most part and growing up in the 90s in the Bay Area and Berkeley. But it's so much more. It's a lot of it is about memory. A lot of it is about music. A lot of it is about culture at the time. in which people found one another and found culture. It's one of my favorite books that I've read in a really long time.

So if you hear my voice, it comes with me and Andy's highest recommendation. It's such a masterful work. And I, by the way, that was one of your best segues, because this really is the origin story of your boys in a way. Like, our life isn't was. We didn't experience the same, anything that he did in some ways. It's certainly not the meat of the book is about a friendship that he made in college and an untimely death. But specifically, it was wild to read a book about a generation that was our generation

where maybe the last generation where it was about things and concrete items and CDs and tapes and zines and books. And I just was really moved by it and blown away by the book. And I think, I think people of all ages will connect to it just because it's such a beautiful story about being a certain age in life. But it is just, it is, to my mind, like the definitive book about people exactly our age. Congratulations, Juan. I know. I don't know if that's the poll quote that he wants, but I couldn't get over that. All right. Let's do.

By the way, if you listen to this podcast at this point, I feel like you have a passing interest in people who are literally our age. Yeah, that's true. I don't know if that's a compliment to you guys listening, but we're telling on ourselves. So, okay, I want to get through Andor, we have about, you know, we want to get to our Sterland interview. But I wanted to ask you this sort of macro question about it before I dive into some details about the episode. This is episode for Aldani. It was the first one written by Dan Gilroy, which is Tony Gilroy's brother, who accomplished screenwriter and director in his

own right, did Nightcrawler. And the thing I wanted to start with, Andy, was the experience of watching it. Yeah. So for what it's worth, Andy and I, I think four episodes were released to press initially. So we got the three episode batch that everybody got. And we got a sneak preview where we got to watch for us. That was very cool. But it didn't change the experience that everybody else had, which is essentially, you could actually watch it in real time if you were looking at like any kind of like social media discussion of Andor of people being like, that first one was pretty good. That second one was pretty good. Yo, that third one was the shit. Oh my God. And then like that kind of cumulative effect that the three episodes had on people,

Tony Gilroy has been really explicit about blocking out the season in. three-episode arcs and how that's sort of the way they told the story, director-writer pairings on those three episodes, but also, you know, I mean, it's essentially like serialized storytelling in the most pure sense of it where this episode of Andor ends with a guy being told, do some homework. It's not exactly a cliffhanger. You know, you get very excited about what's going to happen. But I was wondering if you had any comments about watching this one slice of what will be a three-part story.

For me, it was the deal. It was the closer. This was, I loved the first three. And I think we even said this briefly or alluded to this when we spoke to Tony. Initially, I intended to just watch those three before we talked to him. So we would be on the same pace as the broader viewing public. But I couldn't resist. And I fired up four. And I got to watch it for pure pleasure. And four in a way was the episode where I was like, oh my God, they're really doing it. And by it, I mean, telling such a, for me, for me, me thrilling and smart and grown up and ambitious and expansive story. In some ways, the cross-cutting in this episode was more dazzling and compelling to me than the cross-cutting in the first three, which was, you know, the present day and kind of a brief and sometimes unintentionally unintelligible childhood origin story of Cashin Andor, right? Like, I was pretty excited because literally the galaxy opens up. We see what Lutheran is, is who he really is. We see him in both worlds. We see Khorasan. We feel the empire, like the terrifying heat emanating off of it in a way that we didn't really feel on the, you know, on, what was the name of the town that they were in the

beginning? It doesn't matter. But like from that more distant outpost, we don't feel it as much. Now we're right in the heart of it. And this episode, in addition to introducing just wonderful characters and set pieces and ideas. This episode has a moment that I just don't want to gloss over, which is when they land on Aldani. Aldani, yeah. And Andor is now Clem. And they are doing the hike back to the group of rebels.

And all of a sudden, it's get down, get down, get down. And this beautiful, boggy UK terrain. I don't know where they filmed this. I mean, I just said planet Scotland, but yeah. Exactly. And a tie fighter screams across. And in that one moment, there was more, to me, more gravity and mystery and fear and possibility in a tactile way than in the last, I don't know how many Star Wars movies. Yeah.

That was it in that one shot to me about what the show is trying to do and what it can do and the way it can just kind of, enliven us. It was thrilling to me. Yeah, it kind of reminded me of, and this wound up being a rather unintentionally poetic image for the newest trilogy that we got. But in the trailer for the Force Awakens, and you saw the Star Destroyer kind of dug into the earth. Yeah. And then in the first scene, I think, of Force Awakens, Ray is kind of scavenging it. Yes, a beautiful scene. Maybe this was the best moment since that. Exactly. And in some ways, it was like that, that kind of of you can have all the stuff that makes Star Wars eye-popping, but it has to be scaled against some kind of humanity. And it's these two people who are sort of figuring out who each

other is and whether they need each other or not as they're walking across these highlands. And then all of a sudden something extraordinary like interrupts their their conversation. And that's again why this marriage between Tony, between Luke, God, I'm blanking on his name, the production designer between Tony and... Luke Holt, yeah, who's just... This is his, like, oh, my God, flexing episode, I'm sure of many to come, of Tony's kind of real politic writing style, and then the entrenched Jedi Council at Star Wars of, like, Pablo Hidalgo,

who he mentioned last week and others, really shines, because in this episode, and I want to talk about some of the specifics, I want to talk about some of the great actors that show up, which was just also thrilling. But every set built here, is built for a reason with story and weight behind it. It's not just, hmm, where haven't we had a lightsaber battle? Well, we haven't had one in front of lava in a while or in front of waves.

Those aren't places. Those are ideas. Those are Zoom backdrops, basically. Here, we see essentially Langley, right? Like the CIA headquarters of the empire. And we've seen all white rooms before. We've seen these uniforms, these pristine empire outfits since the 70s. But seeing the outside of Langley and meeting Denise Gough's character,

as she approaches on her daily commute tells me more about everything, why they build the building like this, why they dress this way, that it's populated by people with jobs. We're showing up for work, you know. It communicates so much in a way that as I'm hearing myself talk, it just seems basic, but we haven't been given that before. Yeah, I love that ISB scene. Obviously, Anton Lesser, who played Kyber in Game of Thrones.

I imbues that character I think was it Patrick As what's his name? Like is that the name of the sort of I promise I'll do better with the names because I care too much otherwise it's going to be tricky But his whole like we're health inspector's speech

which we mentioned to Tony that was like very similar to the Eric Beyer speech in Bourne Legacy where he's like they're going through all these sort of reports on these outcome agents these born Jason Bourne type agents and the guy's like oh we got a we got to like research this more.

This is awesome. Like it looks like it's working and he's like it's not working and we got to find out how much to cut to save the patient. And it's like a very similar both occupation and also way of talking about the occupation they have. I have a couple of notes here about stuff I love from it. So we could just like run through it and you can just jump in when you're like, guess that too.

Obviously we just talked about the ISB afternoon meeting. I also like the implication that the ISB while terrifying is also like, Cassian could have just as easily slipped through their fingers to use a Star Warsism. It's only because the Deidre says sees on her iPad. Like, oh, wait, that's the machinery that I've been looking for. I mean, in an era where the JJ Abrams, like, it doesn't matter, McGuffin, Monke's Paw, Rabbit's Foot has become the device that gets you into bigger story. This is such an antidote to that.

A piece of machinery that I've never heard of, but of course must exist in a fictional universe in which hyperspace travel is possible, that's the thread that you pull that will reveal the rebellion? I love that. I mean, remember, we're tracing the rebellion that leads to the first Star Wars trilogy, and it comes from inventory. Yeah, the double lives of Luthen and Mamatha, like, that's straight out of Le Carrey. But the moment where Scars Guard drops one, like, mask to put on another, you know, and he goes

from being the hard-ass spymaster to being this fabulous antiquities dealer is like, come on, man. No. And then also how many filmmakers in a high-pressured IP universe would take the time for that shot where he changes his body.

He changes the way he stands. And shout out to our guy, Luke, who I'm just going to call Luke, because I feel very intimate with him now, for designing the spaceships, like drop-down secret vanity. Yeah, yeah. Incredible.

And Genevieve O'Reilly, by the way, is phenomenal as one novel. That scene with her husband is like better than most marriage scenes on any other TV show when he's just like, it's like, I'm so bored, can't we have a fun dinner party? He says, must everything be sad and boring?

Yes. And I guess he's been watching House of the Dragon too, so I'm thrilled with that. Wow, shots. I would just also throw out there Gilroy's ability to keep threads alive. So there's a version of this show that's A-plus that does not have car

going back home with his hat in his hand and getting slapped by his mother. Which also completely explains why he acts the way he acts in the previous three episodes. It was just such a perfect button. And also, obviously they keep him in there because he's, I would imagine,

going to turn up in some other capacity as the show goes on. But you could just have dropped him and then picked him back up again in episode seven if you needed to. But to have that moment was so great. The moment where he's dressed down where they're all dressed down.

And this action by one ambitious vain fool will lead to the empire takeover of an entire sector is so well done. And I had to watch it again because I'm so used to tuning out when people just say space shit or sci-fi shit. You know, I'm like, okay, I don't, or even in Marvel movies. Like, I don't need to know about the Tesser Act. Like, it's just let's move on to the next part. I rewatch the scene. And what the guy was saying was, I need you to hollow invent. T-O-T-T-RILLI-Sign it.

So it's literally just saying space word in front of bureaucracy words. I loved it. And just that one moment that they found room for where the guy who led the military assault and gotten his ear last week, the sort of stout Scottish guy,

raises his hand as if he wants to say something in his defense. I know. These little moments. And we should talk about the little rebellion cell. They're doing a Western. Yeah, I was just going to say, Planet Scotland and the planning of the Star Wars guns of Navarone, which is basically an impossible mission where the

plan is so crazy, nobody would be expecting it. This has happened a bunch of times in Star Wars. It's also like a tried and true trope of westerns of World War II movies. It's like they will never expect us to go up the mountain face, you know, so we have to go up the mountain face. God damn, pretty pumped up about this and mostly pumped up because as we get to know who these people are, we get Evan Moss backrack as a guy named Skeen, who was my favorite New York mixtape DJ of the early 2000s. I don't know about you. He did great stuff. He had access to the Fuji camp, I believe, a lot of early Lauren Hill stuff. That's right. What did you think of the dirty dozen that we got? And Alex Lothar. Yeah. A great, great British actor you might know

from End of the fucking world or Howard's End. Like, these are the decisions that smart people make that elevate all of it. Yeah. Also, Faye Marseille, who played The Wave on Game of Thrones? Yeah. They, every single person that's introduced with such, again, like Gilroyian economy, immediately has a face, I'm going to remember, has a point of view or a voice or a, like, I get it. They're not just red shirts, even though that may be their fate, you know? And like, Alex Lothar is just not who you'd expect to see in the rebellion, which immediately makes him interesting because he's a little more sensitive or quiet and he smiles when they meet Clem for the first time. We're like, okay, it's going to be a little bit different. Evan Moss Backrack.

should be in space. He should be in all these rooms, frankly, especially after his work on The Bear, they're all going to be interesting. And I think that lesser shows and lesser filmmakers could get nervous. Like, this is a show called Andor. We have Diego Luna.

We are delivering an origin story for a character. We already know where this is going. So let's all calm down and not get too cute, not get too complicated. Let's not take our eyes off the primary ball. But that's not what this show does, and it's all the better for it. All great points.

Obviously, this is one of our favorite shows of the year, so we're going to keep talking about it week to week. I would really remiss if we didn't talk a couple of minutes about reservation dogs before we get into your interview with Sterling. I just, in some ways, the end of this season made me even more excited for the next season than the end of last season did. In some ways, I wonder whether Sterling would call this the end of version one of the show. I mean, it kind of concludes the Daniel plot line.

It was one of the most tender, beautiful. pieces of television I've seen in a while. This has been a remarkable season of TV. I don't mean to not have any notes on it. It's just like I'm still kind of processing it. What did you think? I was totally emotionally bold over by it, not a dry eye in my face.

I was going to say in the house, but I watched it alone. I'm in awe of the show. I feel like we've been, I don't, I feel like I've been trafficking in superlatives recently, good and bad, and I want to try to stay away from that. But let's just say you could easily, make a case that this is the best show on television. It's certainly the most consistently rewarding and surprising show on television.

I don't think there's anything that it can't do, and more than anything else. It's absolute respectful and caring love for its characters and its ensemble. I just find really moving both as a fan of the medium, but specifically just as a fan of this show. How do you reach a point on the beach that is at once the accumulation of 20 episodes of television that often veered wildly from this idea as a central motivating force with actors who two years ago, a year and a half ago, were not just unknowns to us, but some of them, like Lane Factor, weren't actors. And draw that performance and that level of pathos out of them and direct it in a way that it communicates what you're trying to communicate and then end with

the saxophone player from the lost boys on the beach. And the fucking singer from Incubis. That's right. It is just the most warm, heart. a generously spirited program. And like this is, I don't think I'm alone in this. Like when people ask me now what to watch, I just say this. Yeah. Because it doesn't need our help because it is getting renewed and FX seems to be a really good and stalwart partner for it.

But like, more people should be watching it. Just you deserve that in your life, people who aren't watching it. You deserve to see what the medium can do and to be in this world. I would say probably there's a run at episodes. I would say three, four, five, and six this season are about it. as good as you can string together a few episodes. Mabel, wide net decolonivization, decolonization, and Stakel, Cheesy Boy, are just like this incredible run of episodes.

We said that last year, too. Remember where the show was like, oh, this is really good? And then suddenly it went into its solo episodes. Yeah, I did that. Like when Kiss put out four solo albums before getting back together and you're like, oh my God. That's right. Excuse me? It's just dazzling. But I just, there's such confidence in its looseness. You know, that's the thing. Like, it can take us anywhere, and you're great. Last week's episode Offerings was tonally such a wild turn from the acid trip episode

the week before, but you're just in it. And then Polina Alexis is just, as Willie Jack is just like holding it down for you. And you know that you're, you know you're going to go somewhere and see something. It's crazy. I mean, I'm glad I get the chance to talk to Sterling about it because it's just, I think that what he's doing is this. This is sort of a, this is a word I struggle with saying, but I think what he's doing is kind of important,

not just because in terms of representation, which is clearly meaningful and really impactful, just what he's doing for the medium, just making beautiful stories like this. I'm so glad that this show exists. I can't wait to hear your interview with Sterling. We can wrap it up there. We'll be back on Monday.

We'll talk some dragon. We'll talk some other stuff. I can't wait to do that. Thank you to Kai McMullen for producing us, and we'll talk to next week. Let's talk rings. I want to go back to elves. I've had enough dragons, I think.

This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for, that's when Prime's same-day delivery as you're back. Getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment

instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast. Available in select areas, terms apply. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner.

Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. This episode is brought to you by the Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small.

So whether it's buying tickets at the game or grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms apply. This podcast is brought to you by Carvana. Selling your car should feel like one less thing on your list. Not one more.

With Carvana, it is. Just go to Carvana.com and to your license plate or VIN and get a real offer down to the penny. No back and forth, no surprises, just an experience you can trust. Like your offer? Accept it. Schedule pickup and we'll come to you with a check in hand. Your car, your timeline, your terms.

Visit Carvana.com to sell your car today. Carvana. Pick up these mail. apply. All right. Well, now I am so thrilled to be joined for the second year in a row by the creator and showrunner of absolutely hands down one of the best shows on television reservation dogs. Sterling Harjo, thank you for coming back on the watch. Thanks for having me. Thanks for all the love you guys gave us. It was good. Well, as you know, I'm a fan of you and your work. I'm also a fan of you on other podcasts and I'm a little intimidated because you were

recently on fresh air, the Terry Gross. And you were great. And you even sang on that podcast and you sounded amazing. I know, wild. The only person ever gave me to do that would be Terry Gross. Like I literally, like I told her at the beginning, I'm like, you know, I remember going, like, if I make it on fresh air, like, I know I made it, you know. Of course. Yeah.

And then I like, there was a period where I was like, I think the windows closed. Like I'm never going to be on fresh air now. And then all of a sudden I was on, they asked me to be on it. I was like, oh shit. like my dreams have come true. I totally understand that feeling. I just have to ask, I know they don't edit heavily, but like when she asked you to sing,

did you pause? Was there any hesitation or were you just in the pocket with her? It was no edit there because she slowly built that. Like I could tell that's where she was headed. And I was like, oh shit, I just have to remember the song. And I usually sing, I can sing that song longer. But like, as I was doing it, I was nervous that I was going to get it wrong.

And then my whole family would disown me back. You know, like you had one shot, you know. Yes, you were on the mic. Yeah, so I gave it. So I just did the like very short chorus. You did great. And I won't ask you to sing today. I'm just going to, I clear like I could have been building it up now, but I will not.

So much. So I do have a lot of questions for you about the creative process behind the show and about the amazing second season. But because we're talking on Thursday, the season two finale has just aired. So I wanted to start with the end. And one thing that I know you've heard. me praise you in the show for and I'm not alone in this is just the show's

seemingly boundless expansiveness that you just keep widening past the core four to create a series that can go anywhere and embed us with anyone. Whether it's big on an acid trip or the antis on a kind of a crunk conference this season.

Yet here we are in the season two finale directly addressing kind of the inciting incident of the show that suddenly, and it did catch me off guard, that this was still where we were going, that these four friends were still going to go to California to honor Daniel. How did you creatively stay focused on that storyline and why was it important that you did? You know, I think that it was important that we, hey, I didn't

want the audience to feel like they knew that was coming. I don't know, because there's something to me that would have felt cheap about that. If like every episode was like, here's a new piece. of the story unfolding that they're going to go to California, you know. I constantly just try to think of like different ways to, different ways for the story to go. You know, like I think of like, how do I change this from what I would expect or someone else might expect? You know, how do I flip it on its head?

And part of that was, well, let's not have a buildup for them to go to California. Like, let's just drop it on everyone right at the end of the season. And I think part of that is built into like, I never wanted the suicide of Daniel to feel cheap or that I was like using it as this like storytelling device and being exploitative with it. And making this like making this tragedy be like help tell the story. Like I never wanted to lean on that. You know, like I always just wanted it to be there as this. reminder and I always knew that they would go there. I just didn't know what season they would go there. And then there was a point where in the writer's room probably we were talking like I just didn't want

to keep this going. Like I didn't want the threat or the idea of going to California to constantly be what the show's about. I think the audience would get bored by season three if it's like another season of like, well, they're raising money to go to California again. which in a way going to California at the end of season two frees us up now to do whatever again in season three.

In the way that you're saying you like that it's free to expand anywhere well now it's even like we have even more room to expand I think. Yeah, I was wondering about that specifically about you as the creator where do you feel that you've left us?

Obviously it's a little precarious they don't have a car. Bear can't get in touch with his dad, not that he would necessarily be helpful. And he announces at the end that he's not going back. In your mind, I guess it's a two-part question that in terms of, I don't want you to spoil anything, in terms of like the actual mechanism of it, but emotionally, where do you feel they are at the end of this? Well, I think that emotionally we're in that place where, you know, you lose, you deal with something and you heal from something, right? And a lot of times the pendulum swings too far. And

it creates a vacuum or a void that you have to fill. And part of, I think, our life's journey is like, you know, when you're like 30s, you discover what the hell was wrong with you in your 20s, you know? And then you overcorrect and then you realize you didn't know anything. And then your 40s, you're like, okay, now I'm trying to balance this. And I'm trying to get it right in the middle. You know, I wasn't right in my 20s or my 30s, but I'm going to use my 40s to try and get somewhere in the middle and like balance this life out. And I feel like that's where we've found them, or at least we've found them where they have this void now.

Like they have done the thing that they were going, they were set out to do. And there is some healing from that. And there is some healing from the loss of their friend. But you have two options after that. Like you either fill it with something good or you fill it with something bad, you know? And so I think that's where we find them. I have another specific question about the finale shoot,

but the way you answer that really made me want to jump to something that I've really come to notice about the show and really appreciate, which is that while the focus, certainly like in the title, is on these four particularly young shit-asses, one underappreciated aspect of the show is that you really illustrate in such subtle and compelling, ways the way young shit asses become older shit asses in a hurry.

Right. And then it's not just that like Bear has a roofing job so he's grown up now. That's not the point. It's really more the top down perspective, the perspective you are just giving me about, you know, trying to consider your life and what you can do as you get older. On your show, the old people are often just as totally pollaxed by events as the young people. They were the young people and we've had some glimpses this season of them as the young people. And this sense of life not as a monodirectional.

experience, but you're just kind of swimming and splashing through it. And I think whenever I'm in my 60s, I'll probably look back at my 40s and say, well, I thought I had it. But then when you get to your 60s, you're really trying to balance it out, which is where I think we find the adults. And I think that we see the version of these kids older that failed to do it maybe the correct way or the most healthy way, you know. This adult group is sort of all splintered. and like kind of in different places.

And everyone's kind of struggling with this thing that they never dealt with. And I think that there's things that the kids can learn from that. And I think there's things that the adults are going to learn from the kids. And I also think that that adult group, we're going to have more folks come into play with that, I believe. That's exciting. What was the beach shoot like in the finale?

It's an incredibly moving scene, and it's shot so beautifully. And I imagine it was kind of a heavy experience, because you have your core four actors on this day. And, you know, it was in a way, for me as a viewer, it was a celebration of these actors who, some of whom, you know, none of whom I knew a year ago, some of whom, like Lane, from what I understand, wasn't even an actor a year two ago.

And here they are delivering on some of the heaviest stuff you can ask actors to do. Right. Man, it was beautiful. It was, you know, it was like this big thing of, like, I always knew we were going there. We talked about even season one going there, you know. And so we always knew that they would end up right there.

And man, it was like the confidence of those actors was amazing to just go there. And there they are. And they're like, here we are. And there was this like kind of weight over everything. A, because we'd had a pretty grueling season two shoot. Like weather was insane. And like we were just like kind of beat up. And here we are.

And we get to go to the beach for the last days. or the last day. And, you know, also we had Daniel with us, which he's not always with us. Dalton isn't always with us. So Dalton is there watching them do the scenes. So he's always this reminder of this character that like what the show's about, you know?

So there's a certain amount of like responsibility that comes with that, I think, to the actors. It's like it reminds them of what we're doing. But it was really awesome. I mean, everyone, you know, everybody's in wetsuits and like we're out there filming and it's insane right like you think like oh i've made it i'm in hollywood and uh i'm a showrunner now like there's going to be some like you know and i'm sure like when they did roma there was a great thing that they had that made

that easier but we're just in the water you know and it's like yeah it's not easy i've got safety people there and it's like yeah you don't want to go too far in the water because it's dangerous. And so we're just grabbing these pieces, you know, and I'm just like directing and yelling and like, you know, people are running in and out and like cameras trying to stay up and then the camera's breaking down, you know, and it's like breaking down and like pulling back up and like we're trying to fix it and then we're fixing it. And, you know, it's breaking. And in the middle of all of that, there's these great moments with all of them. And there's this, you know, the moment where cheese is giving a speech. Lane was doing a great monologue. I just saw him doing this

great model. I was beautiful. I cut and we started moving on to do other coverage. And I just happened to glance over and I saw it all hitting Lane. Like all of a sudden, the weight of everything had hit him after we had shot his coverage of his speech. And so I just like grabbed, you know, everyone, the DP and AD. I was like, switch gears. And like, we should film Lane again. And they were like, yeah, we should. So we all, you know, flipped back on Lane and I said, Lane, you know, do your speech again. And he did it.

And it's like, that's that raw. Everything was there. And he just did it so beautifully. And, you know, I was just kind of throwing out lines for him while we were doing it. And it was the idea of like making it feel fresh and and it needed to feel like it does now.

It needed to feel that way. Like it is this big moment with Daniel. And it's hard to write that stuff. You know, like you want these moments to feel really big and Tommy Pico did a great job of writing it. But like, you know, and we altered it and changed it, but it's really hard to know how the emotions and the feeling's going to hit when you're in the water and it's such a crazy shoot like that, you know. And then he just nailed it. And he just like, it was like all of a sudden everything clicked in and he knew what he needed to do. And it became

this really powerful moment, I think, for for cheese, you know. And I don't know. It was like, And then I was worried, you know, like the footage, right? Like you're worried, like, oh, that was stressful. And then started looking at it. It was like beautiful. It was like, oh, my God. Like it feels has this whole feeling of its on itself, you know? It feels great.

It's like, I don't know. I had this like Spike Jones feeling. And and then, you know, of course, like Tim Capello, like, you know, we wrote that in there. Just like, let's do something that we can, that no one thinks we'll do this, you know? And what a great way to like end it. right? Like, and we got this like, found this like quote from Jesus that's like, blessed are those that have not seen and yet still believe. And then he's like, I still believe. And then we go to Tim Capello and, you know, like that's me and my dad watching Lost Boys

talking about that scene for my whole life and being able to put Tim Capello in there and close it out. And then like, you know, just a little known fact is that like the song I still believe was written by an Oklahoma and lead singer of the call. You know, so it was like, all bringing it back home and are all meant. And also, if you look at the lyrics of that song, like, it's very meaningful to, like, what's happening to these kids and what they're going through. Tim Capello's one of the first things that he said when he showed up on set was,

well, should I oil up now or later? I hope he's not the only actor ever to ask you that. And, of course, you always answered now, you know, oil up when you can. Having worked with him, I think Kirk Fox asked that as well whenever it shows up anywhere. But I love that because that moment, those moments you're describing in the episode, it's the soul of the show, right, where it is deeply meaningful and spontaneous, but also considered and baked into your experience and funny and neither undercuts the other. And I wonder if that moment you've described about observing something in Lane,

if that's like a useful microcosm of something that I note constantly week to week on the show, which is obviously you have great performers. Like these kids are wonderful and you bring in really incredible actors who get to do things that we often haven't seen them do. But again and again, you cast people in like, oh, that guy's dad or brother or the guys on the roof, people we haven't seen that often. And I'm like, why are these the best actors on TV this week? Week to week, why is Sterling finding talent that other people are like, oh, I can't find

actors? Not necessarily to play native roles, just to play roles. I mean, like, you know, I've always had a knack for having, like, I can have a conversation with someone and know if I could get a performance out of them. And like, it's also, I think it's a lot to do with casting and like, how is that role written and can this person kind of fit into this role? And I've just always had a knack for that. I don't know why. Like all of my films, I've always cast like that.

And I like how the play. I like how untrained actors play with trained actors. I like how trained actors have to step up and like, oh, man, this person's so real. Like, I have to be real now, you know? And vice versa, the untrained actor sees the actor just like, unafraid and like going for it. but they're like, oh, like, there's no time for me to be worried. Like, I have to do this. Two examples are, you know, in episode 209,

we had last minute sort of emergency and then a COVID thing that I had to recast two roles. I mean, like, days before, you know. And one is the old man, Tupelo that's sitting in the jail talking to Willie Jack about doing a hero dose of mushrooms and waking up as a jailbird, you know? And that guy is, his name's Steve Mathis, and he is this legendary gaffer.

And he's sort of retired, but then came out of retirement to work on rest dogs because he's from Oklahoma and he lives here now. And he just likes to work on things he likes to work on. And so he works on this show. But I mean, if you do a quick IMDB search, I mean, or if you go watch the show, the movies that made us, he's in like three of them.

I mean, he's like original Halloween. Like he was gaffing that. back to the future, like all of this. I mean, like, one time I was playing on a Bluetooth speaker on set, I was playing Boys of Summer, the Donnie only song, and it was playing. And I'm kind of like grooving to it. And Steve comes by and starts grooving with me.

And he's like, yeah, that was a cool music video to work on. You know, he's like worked on everything, you know. And so he's just this character. And I asked if he would want to play the part. And it was like last minute. And he was like, yeah, I'll do it. So he, you know, we dressed him up and I think I'm going to bring him back. And then the other one was the spirit, Graham, that is Holti's spirit.

So that's Tava Samson. And, you know, if you, I'm sure you're familiar with one flu of the cuckoo's nest. Well, her grandpa is the famous Will Sampson. He's the chief, chief in the, and he was also in poltergeist and all of that. So I originally wrote an homage Because she works on the show She's set deck and works in the art department And she

I originally wrote an homage to her grandpa Where I was casting her playing basketball With Hopti outside in the courtyard at the jail Kind of like to mimic the scene of Will Sampson, her grandpa And Jack Nicholson playing basketball And I think And my actor that was going to play

The Spirit got COVID And I couldn't be in it And so, like, days before, literally flipped it and made her, made Tava be the spirit. And, you know, it was all, and she was originally just going to kind of be giving an homage to her grandfather. But, yeah, it worked out really great. That's amazing. And what you're speaking to is, I think, connected to the question I wanted to ask, which is I've just found myself talking about your show constantly over the last few weeks, both on the podcast and just in life. And the thing that I can't get over, and I feel like I probably said some version of this to you.

you last year as well, which is just my main takeaway from resdogs is just how deeply you and your creative team care about these characters, you know, not just the core resdogs, but everybody has these moments of respect and generosity and grace, whether it's Jackie or the Anties or Kirk Fox's Kenny Boy who suddenly has so much more to do this season. And I guess this might be a broad question, but I'm curious what it sparks in you, which is, how does that care for these fictional people as people manifest in the writing and production? And the second part of it is how does that, how does it keep it from being, how does it keep you from being overly protective of them?

Because you love them, but you're still willing to give them dramatic stakes in situations and put them in peril. Right. I mean, it's an interesting, good question, because I don't know the answer completely. I just know that, look, I really enjoy life. Like, I really enjoy the way that I grew up. I enjoy the people that I come from. And, like, it was a cast of characters.

My whole upbringing was like, I mean, I felt like I was living a movie, honestly. And, you know, like, there were just so many stories. And I care about that so much. And then you throw on top of that that there hasn't really been a native show like this to really just, like, you know, kick the door in and be like, all right, like, it's time. You know, and there's care that goes into that. And it's like, you know, I'm not making the detective story. I'm not making the cowboy versus Indian story, you know, where everyone's got a bow-low tie on and turquoise rings and jeans and cowboy boots.

Like I'm not making that, you know. I get to tell something that's real and I know all of these people and the writers' room we know all of these people and we care about them. And then you throw on top of that these amazing actors. I mean, Elva, who plays Jackie, walked in an open audition in Oklahoma City. And I met her. She had a Wu-Tang Clan shirt on and her hair was bleached blonde. And just like did this, like, great audition.

And then I interviewed her after that. I talked about her life. And she told me where she'd come from. And like, it's like, you know, I thought, would be cool. Like there's this show about Native people like I thought, why not? I'll try, you know? And then like talking about her life and she's emotional

and she's about to make me cry and she's about to cry, you know, and it's like she wants to be a filmmaker and I know she can be whatever she wants. So you throw in these actors. I mean, the guy that plays Bone Thug Dog who's a part of the bad guy gang, like he came in and he's like, I'm a rapper. And I just had him freestyle for me, you know? And it's like all of them

almost got cast as the main crew. And whenever we did the final callback, I told them, like, I'm going to cast Jaws, like the bad guy gang. So I made the bad guy gang kind of come alive and become this other thing. So I just care about all of it. And I don't know, other than, like, I just don't have much cynicism in me. And I don't.

It's like this first opportunity. I want to show it as a celebration. I want it to be a celebration of these characters of, like, being native about, like, our community, about the reservation. And I don't know. I find something of love in all of them. I mean, it's like, when you first meet Jana's character, Bev, I mean, she's pretty, like, scary person to be around.

Like, she's not fun at the, at the IHS counter, you know? But then you move into, like, Auntie's Night Out or, like, to widen, why, I was cast to widen out, I believe it's called, it was called Anties Night Out for a while. And then she's just wild and awesome, but also, like, real and touching and like, and I just find that that's what life is. I mean, it's beautiful. And it's also like everyone's very complicated. No one's perfect. I like celebrating human beings and like how flawed we are. And I think in native communities, because we're so close, because it's such a close giant group, you know, whenever I was filming 209, I thought about my uncle Marty a lot as we were filming it. Because my uncle Marty,

one of my first memories is going to a prison in McAllister to visit him as like a four-year-old, three-year-old, four-year-old child. And it's one of my first memories is going to see him. And he went to jail a lot. But like there was something just so special about him and awesome. I remember like one time he came out of jail and we always, you know, we'd have like a dinner party for him or we had a dinner for him and like he got out of jail. And he had been reading clippings.

I just got into film and doing this stuff. And my uncle Marty, I never would have. ever thought he really would be in the movies, you know. And we're kind of like off to ourselves. And he's got a, you know, he's kind of on the outskirts of the party because he's sneaking a beer. And he's like, I'm really cool what you're doing. You know, it's cool what you're doing like the whole, the movie stuff. And I was like, yeah. And he was like, you know, kind of silent for a second. And he's like, my favorite filmmaker, Steven Spielberg. And I just like floored me. I was like, how would you even, like what do you like how like where do you watch movies like you know and he just watches

his movie and reads in jail you know and he's like my favorite filmmaker is stevens billberg and he was like and and the reason i like him is because he creates a world for you like it's his vision of the world and that's what he creates and he was like when you watch schindler's list he said that's his world that he's created and and it's through his eyes you see it was like so profound to me to hear my uncle say that this person who was in and out of jail and there's beauty in these people that like I think get forgotten but whenever you're in a tight-knit larger community and family you don't write people off as easy and and and I think that you see though those full human sides of people and then you know my uncle died while we were filming this episode which is kind

of about willy jack going to connect with this person and this person isn't bad even though she's locked up and she did something bad like there's this whole other side to her um that willie jack and the audience gets to see. And I just, I don't know, like, I like exploring that. I don't think people are perfect, and I don't think that people are all good or all bad. And I think sometimes there was a quote that I read in some film book at one point. And I think it was talking about films in the 1970s. I'm not sure I don't remember, but it's like characters are great when they are, you know,

when they're exactly the opposite of who you think they are. It's like, that's what surprises us in films. It's when they are the opposite of what we think they are and what we're used to seeing them as. And so I get to play with that a lot, I think, in reservation dogs. I think the other manifestation of that that comes to mind and particularly highlights the lack of cynicism you're talking about in you and in the worldview of the show was the decolonativization episode. I may have mixed up the words in that.

But I was really in awe about the way that you're able to sew with the same tone that the show always does, just both satirize and celebrate at the same time. And in so doing, give us a glimpse of hard things that, like, as a society, we're really struggling with how to talk about or present. You know, Amber Midthunders, great performance as Miss Matriarch, who's from the Bay Area, but her soul is with her ancestors. But you're not dragging her.

You know what I mean? She's there, too. She is a person who's there, too. Right. Why is it important to you to be able to laugh and nod at the same time in these moments? Yeah, I think that, you know, I feel like that it's just good storytelling. You know, if I read, I think I mentioned Flannery O'Connor the last time when I was on this podcast. But it's like, this is a safe space for Flannery O'Connor references, I promise.

So whenever I read that, it's like, when I read her stuff, I'm like, man, I'm so torn and it's so complicated. It's like, and writing Amber Midthunders character as this one note thing would have would have just been another show. Like, other shows can do that. Like, I don't want to do that, you know, like, like, I try to have to hold judgment over them. And like, I want to see, you know, they are really trying. They're really trying to connect with these kids. And they're doing things that are, like, positive. And they're actually opening kids up and, like, you know, they're helping them share their soul and, like, discover things about themselves.

But also, like, they're a little out of touch, you know. And, you know, I grew up with people talking to me like that, you know, at youth conferences and things. And, like, and actually, when you're young, you think, holy hell, like, I can get out of here and be them. So a lot of times, like, I bet half of the kids in watching Miss Matriarch talk are like, yeah, she's awesome. Like, I can go be that. But then there's another, you know, and then you get older and you're a teenager, you're more cynical about things.

Oh, this person's full shit, you know. So I don't know, like it's really, you know, it's almost instinctual, I think. Like I don't plan that, you know, like I don't say like, all I know is if I read something that doesn't feel real. I just try to... A lot of times you'll ride or you'll read something that just feels kind of one note. And that usually means to me

that there's something not real. And a lot of times, like, something's too one way or the other. It's like you're either too good or too bad. And if you're too good, I want to put some flaws in there and muddy it up a bit because it feels like real life to me.

one thing that's become I mean if it can be a tradition after two seasons is that each Res Dog kind of gets a solo album of an episode and it's such thrilled to see because they're not what you expect them to be to your point just now like I did not expect the Willie Jack episode to be

the one that it was for example but the cheese episode really stood out not just as a showcase for what Lane Factor has done with his part and his sort of emergence as a performer but in reading about it the next day I read that the particular some of the specifics of of cheese's experience came from one of your writers in his experience.

And I wondered, especially now that you're in the room again for season three, how do individual stories manifest out of your collective group? You know, it's interesting. Like, thinking about season three, I mean, like, I think maybe that was an idea that I threw out, and you could just see Bobby light up, and then all of a sudden it's like, you know, and then, like, you see his draft and his life's in it, you know.

and there's no changing it too much. You know, like I do a pass on stuff, but like I, you know, there's not much I can do to that. There's so much reality in what he's doing. And it's such a complex thing where it's like there's pain and there's humor and there's all of this stuff. And I can't imagine going through what Bobby went through. You know, I had a family that I could be home with. But like being, you know, having to grow up and be at a boy's home for the two years of my life as I become an adult, just because I was a graffiti artist.

Like, I mean, like, it's fucking nuts, you know? And so, like, he really put himself into that, and it felt you could feel it on the page, you know? And then thinking, like, right now, like, how the individual stories happen, I don't know, it's very instinctual. It's, like, you know, because, like, there's this thing. We have this core group. And you sort of, like, because we're making the show about this core.

group of kids, you want to sort of, like, shoot them out of a shotgun just for dramatic purposes of like, boom, get them away from each other. And then you bring them back together, you know, and it's sort of this like pulsing thing of like wanting to make sure, like, do they do it right or they do it wrong? You know, what happens when they separate, you know, because they're so strong together and they're a family and they're a unit. Well, the drama lies in like getting them apart and seeing who picks. of the pieces and how that works.

And that's happening this. We've only been in the room for three days, but like three or four days, but that's already happening, you know, for this. And like, like this season, for instance, like for the third season, I'm, I sort of have these like guiding guideposts of like telling the room, like, well, I would like to see this be the case

and this be the case, this season. And so we kind of like, everything's kind of circular in those, in these two like posts that we have. And it's like, how can we be more this way, this sort of tone that I've set up for the season, you know? And then we throw out every name.

It's like, well, what, you know, because we, last season, we didn't give Barra his own episode in season one. Yeah. So last season, we were like, we have 10 episodes. Let's give everyone an episode. But then you're like almost every side character. We've discussed giving, We've discussed an episode just for them, you know.

And sometimes it happens and a lot of times he gets thrown out. And this season, we're already kind of talking what characters are going to get episode. Season 10, White Steve episode. Right, exactly. I mean, we've talked about that. I mean, at one point, like, you know, I don't think that we'll do this. I don't have to give nothing away. But at one point, it was going to be Bill Burr and his son, White Steve.

Oh! there it is. And, you know, so like we really just like, and I've never been in a room before and I've never been a part of a room, but people that have been that are in the room have told me that something about the sort of blue sky stuff, like just throwing things out is really fun. And I think there's a lack of judgment if something bombs, you know? Like I encourage everyone. And I'll make fun of them for an idea.

You know, I will. Like, like, like, what? Like, like, you should think more before you say that. And like, depending on who it is, you know. And one day Dallas, Goldtooth sent me some texts the night before. The first thing that I did the next day was like, let me read you Dallas's pitches. It was kind of odd, you know?

And then what's hilarious is three days later, I land back on his pitch. Like, rejected it at the first. first day. And then three, four days later, I'm like, man, I hate to say this, but like, what if we do what Dallas said? And then all of a sudden, he's redeemed, you know? It's a process. Yeah. So there's no hard feelings. And like, you know, half of them are from a comedy group that we've, we've got a lot of calluses making fun of each other for a long time. So, you know, it's a good process, just messing around with each other. Not to get too in the weeds with it,

But I wonder if you come in saying, you know, you'd like a solo showcase for Bear or a solo showcase for Willie Jack. You'd like to maybe consider getting to California this season, for example. Is there an example you can pull out of season two of an episode that just didn't exist and just sort of became a repository for things that slid off of other episodes or that other episodes turned into? You mean one that ended up filmed? It ended up filmed, but when you, you know, in the first week or two didn't exist. But yeah, yeah, yeah, there's one that's interesting. And it's Willie Jack's the jail. We wrote that like, I think we broke that like a week and a half before we shot it.

And Megazee got sent away for like a day or two to go write that. And, you know, that originally was a yard sale episode. I remember in the writer's room it was a yard cell. So it was like this community episode. It was on the street and stuff. And then that changed to a wild. onion dinner, which is kind of a cultural thing that we have. And like, they usually happen at like an old church or some sort of like community house or something, you know. And so then that

was going to be that. And there was a mythological sort of being that is a part of that, but I won't say anything about that because it might come later. But, and then I, you know, I have these like moments where I'm like, uh, that doesn't feel like there's something. And I always, I can always tell him, it's just mugging me. It's like, it's like, I know, down that's not what it should be and it's not finished and so I usually come to the writers and in this case it was Taspa magazine Bobby who are production writers on the show and I was like man this just isn't it like like what is it you know like what is it actually it might have been just magazine and I because at one point Bobby got COVID and then or was gone and then I think

Tosbell was editing her episode and I was like it just doesn't feel right like there's not there And then it's like take away the gimmicks. So you take away the mythological being. You take away the wild onion dinner. What is it? Like what are we trying to say? And it's like, how else could we say it? And then that's where that came out of, you know?

And so like there's bits and pieces of things that are from those episodes. But like in the end, it was like, it's almost like, you know, a good blue song or folk song. It's like boil this down to like to the essence of what it's supposed to be. And does it survive? if not, what are you trying to say? You know, like rebuild it into something else. And I think that that is a key thing that we do in the room. It's such a good lesson for all writers of any kind, honestly.

Like what actually you're trying to say here? And you've been, certainly, you've been so generous with your time. I just have one other, one last question, which is kind of just sort of a broad one in the sense that I think when we spoke last year, whether it was directly an answer or a question or if it just sort of came up, I was really struck by this idea that when you were shooting season one, you know, and the signs go up. and the production vans show up. And I would imagine in some of the communities and streets that you're filming, people are like, what is this?

Like, I don't know what this is. And, you know, the cast isn't getting recognized, whether they're in Oklahoma or they're in Los Angeles. Season two, that must have changed considerably. I'm wondering how the energy of the ensemble has changed heading into season three. And not just like the actors are famous now, but literally you make the show in a place where other shows that we talk about on the podcast aren't filmed.

Do you work with people so closely who have been? with you through different parts of your career and different projects. What's the vibe to get to do this again? It's great, man. I mean, it's like the community loves it, especially after first season came out. Like, anyone that was mad about us being around after the first season, like, anything goes now, right? And like, and also the Muskogee Nation, who's the tribe in town, in my tribe, that they're so proud of it.

I mean, like, they were in a parade the other day, like the chief and a couple of other people, and they all had reservation dog shirts on. Totally booted shirts too. I don't even know where they got them. Even better. And my aunt was selling them for a while, but I don't know. She was like making them.

But, and you know, like we give back to the community. We try not to just be these people that come in and film something to leave. Like even afterwards we'll have like community barbecues on the streets that we film. The other day, my fiancee, Britt Hensel, she's a dog, you know, fanatic and rescuer. She, um, on set while we were shooting, her and a lot of the crew and myself and different folks

would, um, and my brother, different, everybody. There was a whole crew of people that would like, while we're shooting the show, it's like text messages going out like, there's a dog on this corner of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, let's go rescue it, needs help. This one has the manes. Let's talk to the owner. And literally like, I think they saved like 14 animals, uh, like on the, uh, you know, during our shoot. And so as a thank you to the community, we had a mobile clinic with the Tulsa

SPCA. We had a mobile clinic come to the neighborhood and like spay and neuter and vaccinate like dogs for free that day. And so the neighborhood, all the, the neighborhood in which we shoot and community, which we shoot could come and get it done. And like hundreds of people showed up with dogs and stuff. So like, you know, it's, people love the show. I mean, we had the premiere in Oklahoma and at the Muscogee Nation's casino. Like they gave me the option to premiere in L.A. or here, and I did it here. And we had the premiere in Tulson. You know, it was amazing.

Everyone came and, like, dressed in, like, the best, like, sort of native, modern tribal gear. And, like, which are, like, ribbon skirts and ribbon shirts. And everyone looked nice. I had COVID, so I didn't get to go. Oh, no. But it was wonderful. It was, like, packed house. and everybody loved it.

And, you know, it was so welcoming. And people just like, I mean, people have, like, especially in this community and Native people, like, have taken such ownership over the show. It's not, it just doesn't feel like mine. It comes out and, like, all of my friends and people that I know in my community and all over Native Indian country are just talking about it. And it's almost like being in a room where they're talking, like, and I'm talking about online.

But it's almost like being at a room where. like people are talking about you and they're not addressing you. Because I just get to see these conversations happening about this show and it's great. But like, you know, it's not mine anymore. It's theirs. And like it's super exciting and just really fulfilling to make the show. It's great. Well, it's significant.

I think, and it's not common that you're there. You live and work in the same place, right? I mean, most showrunners, for whatever reason, you know, are living in L.A. or New York. And then they fly to where they're shooting and they spend six months in a place and then they're gone. But you're there and your writer's room is there. your family's there. Exactly. Well, I'm so pleased I got a chance to talk to you.

I just thank you again for this season of TV. I just feel like it's important, not just for the show, which you make, which is just delightful, entertaining, but I just find it really inspiring for the medium. That, like, TV can do this, man. It's awesome. Yeah, man, it's exciting. I'm like, you know, I'm glad I didn't know any better. I'll say that.

There's something to be said about that, right? There is, man. I'm really glad, you know? And it's been, I've sort of approached things like that, just sort of dove into them and did them. And so, you know, and in this case, it really worked. And, yeah, it's great. And, you know, thank you guys for all the support. It's been really awesome.

We love it. All we ask is season three. And then hopefully we get to do this again at the end of it. Yeah, let's do it, man. Sounds good. Awesome. Thanks, sir. Thank you.

Relax and let Ralph's delivery handle your grocery shopping this week. We start with only the freshest items. Then, review your list and carefully choose each one. Then we pack it all up and deliver it in as little as 30, So you can feel confident it's what you ordered. Fresh groceries, your way with Ralph's delivery and pickup. Get free delivery during online deal days, plus $30 off your first online order. Ralph's, fresh for everyone.