The Watch - ‘Reservation Dogs,’ ‘What If…?,’ and a Conversation With Andrew Haigh and Jack O’Connell of ‘The North Water’

Episode Date: August 12, 2021

Chris and Andy talk about ‘The White Lotus’ getting renewed for a second season (3:54) before getting into the first episodes of ‘Reservation Dogs’ (10:42) and the Marvel animation series ‘What If…?’ (20:17). Then Chris is joined by ‘The North Water’ director Andrew Haigh and actor Jack O’Connell to talk about creating the intense new TV show (33:45). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guests: Andrew Haigh and Jack O’Connell Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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My name is Chris Ryan. And I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line, Crestfallen because his Pangborn what if was rejected by Disney. It's Andy Greenwald. Not rejected. It was swatted away at the rim like Pangborn does when he defends these courts. Do you think Pengborn? Where was he on the Knicks big board for this past NBA draft?

Oh, he was definitely in the mix. Like above Moses Moody for sure. A million percent. It thinks it broke in a certain way. He's still an undrafted free agent. Greenwald, it's Thursday. What a delightful time to be speaking with you about popular culture, but specifically television, which is what people rely on us for. That's, we're the watchers on the wall. Today on the podcast, not only am I chatting with my best friend Andy, but I am also chatting with Andrew Hay and Jack O'Connell. Jack O'Connell is the star of the Northwater. Andrew Hay wrote and directed the episodes of the Northwater. It's adapted from an Ian McGuire novel. I will say I finished it. The last episode is up now and available. It's a five episode. mini series. This is one of my favorite things I've seen this year. The end of the season is extraordinary. I can't wait to talk with some people about it once they get a chance to see it. I feel like

this one's a little bit slow on the uptake. But I will say, the way this is happening kind of reminds me to zero zero zero where people are like, how do I watch it or like I'm going to get around to it. When people see it, I think that this is going to have a second life. Absolutely mind-blowing Colin Farrell performance that is, I would not say necessarily on the same level of Daniel Day-Lewis and there will be blood, but is definitely singing from the same hymn book. But O'Connell is amazing in this. Like, this is my favorite Jack O'Connell so far. It's, if you don't know, a story about a 19th century whaling expedition that goes horribly wrong in the Arctic. And they shot it north of Norway. They went, they went there. And it's cold and hell is hot, man. I'll tell you that. And so incredible show.

I hope people check it out. And even if you haven't checked it out, my conversation with Andrew and Jack was really cool just to hear about the making. of it and what weighed into it. So that out of the way. We'll get to that in the second half of the show. Andy, how are you? I want to say I'm two episodes in. I'm going to watch the show. I like this show. I can't wait to talk to you about it. I have to say, maybe this is just the contrarian in me, but what about all those 19th century whaling expeditions that went well? How come we don't hear about them? I suggested to Andrew that there's a lot of IP out there. Like you could you could do a feel good Northwater next. Just a whaling expedition that, you know, maybe they even save the whales.

Maybe they're like, you know, what are we doing out here? Because the thing about 19th century is that those guys were conservationists. You know, they really thought long and hard about and they were very mindful of their behavior. It's funny. It's sometimes I, you know, I like many, I look at the state of the world and I despair. But then I do have to remember that for all of human recorded and unrecorded history until like 19. Yeah. Yeah, until like 1950, the sole purpose of humanity was to see something that scared them and then club it over the head.

That was it. And sometimes you were the thing that got clubbed over the head. So every time I'm like, oh, my emotional maturity isn't developed enough. I'm like, what a concept. What a luxury. I know. I don't have to stab seals to make money. You know what I mean?

So maybe we all ought to give ourselves a break. Well, Andy, before we talk about these new shows, can we? talk a little bit about a new show that is going to be a now a multi-season show, which is White Lotus. It was announced that White Lotus is going to get a second season, another installment from HBO. And it sounds like what will happen is it will be a different set of characters in a different location. The same, the White Lotus property, like it would be another White Lotus property. But yeah, I thought that was very interesting. Obviously, Mike White, it's pretty well known now. Essentially, like, pulled this one out of his back pocket when

And HBO called him up and said, do you have anything COVID-friendly that we could make now? And, you know, he's obviously had some ups and downs, incredible writer and incredible filmmaker and incredible showrunner, but has had some ups and downs with TV and now has an unlikely, I don't know, juggernaut, but a successful show that he kind of seems to have grabbed out of thin air. Yeah, some people work best this way. Some people work best quickly when they can't get in their own way and without, you know, the various roadblocks that the business sets up to slow any momentum you might ever possibly

feel even for a second, definitely not editorializing on behalf of myself here. And it's also probably why, to a degree the show has resonated beyond the setting and beyond the cast and characters, we haven't really talked about this and we've talked about the show. But, you know, the characters are pretty fungible mouthpieces for hot button issues of the day. Sometimes I think it's almost to the show's detriment. Like, and we were we were, we were, we were, a little bit for Steve Zahn speech about white people giving up privilege. But a different scenario almost makes it worse. It makes you appreciate what Mike White's done here.

Because he wrote this so quickly, and it's in front of us so quickly, he is able to kind of play in the, I don't want to say cesspool, but maybe I will, of contemporary sociological discourse and not have it feel super-forced and super-dated all the time. You know, in terms of like bespoke prestige turnaround, this is about as fast as it can get. And so I think that that's a nimble and useful thing for him and the way he likes to write and the way he likes to engage with his characters and have them engage with the world. Mostly, I want to say, this is a no-brainer, but no-brainers get missed all the time when they become too much brainers. Like, this is a great idea. This is a great win for everybody involved, particularly a great win for Mike White, as you said, not only because he seemed more aligned.

His career seemed, and this is not a bad place to be, but it definitely. seem to be trending towards the critically and fanatically and cultally adored and not so much the consistently successful in the larger metrics. But he's done the thing that I think every single person who's ever downloaded a copy of final draft has dreamed of, which is he's somehow manufactured a successful show that demands, nay, requires him to be on location in exotic, expensive vacation destinations every year. I mean, respect. And I say this is someone who grew to love Albuquerque New Mexico. But when you write, put pen to paper, like, of course, part of you is like, I'm going to write myself to Maui this summer, or this winter more like, you know what I mean?

Yeah, right. And oh my God, I'm so impressed by that. It's fantastic. Where do you take White Lotus season two? What locale? What's funny is I it's not so much that tax breaks will determine it but COVID will determine it again so it's again a smart choice for them to do this I think

the other thing that we read in the LA we learned from the LA Times story about the show the other week was that the four seasons in Maui was just for whatever reason cool with this and even the reporter was kind of like when we follow up to ask if the Four Seasons was cool with all the stuff that goes on in the show, they got kind of a muted response.

So it would need to be a resort that was like either closed because of COVID and can let them run wild or able to continue their business and bring people in and do it safely. So I don't have an answer. The potential, you know, there's limitless potential around the world. But I do think that those other factors will factor into the decision. I have an answer. Yeah. I'm always thinking about vertical integration.

You know me. you know that that's where my mind always goes. It's your passion. How can we get synergy? What can we build on here? So why not a White Lotus about the last group of visitors to Westworld? Wow. Well, the shows are very similar, honestly.

I mean that sincerely. This is just my preferred version of Westworld of like an apocalyptic representation of what it means to be human. Like, this is more my speed. How do you see that playing out? I just think it would be funny to imagine them arriving by, train and just getting off in like these very weirdly nice hotel managers go up to them right before there's an absolute like slaughter slaughter from from robots yeah i think that look i think that there's lots of of side door action there look why not why not go to um kings landing you know what i mean

like why not white lotus kings landing white lotus at least like dubrovnik right or like white white lotus like northern new jersey the little soprano's action going wow I mean, if Casey wasn't coming on the show before, now he's going to come on just to tell you those are ridiculous ideas. I think the other thing that I'm curious about, and there's probably no way of knowing because the ratings are the ratings and the value is the value. It's very opaque from our perspective. But it strikes me that HBO struck a bullseye with the show among the audience that it's most important for them to cultivate, which is a certain kind of cultural literati slash Twitter user. it's the audience that they've made their bones on. And I don't know if it is a, I don't know how broad an audience it is.

I'd be curious, they probably have the numbers. But this is a bullseye that is important to them, not only to keep the kind of viewers that have watched the network for years, but also to keep their identity as that home for those viewers and as a place to go on Sunday nights is just really struck gold. And I don't know if that's the same audience that they've been scraping and touching. and moving past with things like the undoing or big little lies or even mayor of Easttown, which I think has, you know, I don't know if this is anecdotally, but seems to have grown

even more successful as it's just been living on HBO Max. Yeah. And I think that it'll be interesting to see coming out of the Emmys if that show does very well at the Emmys, whether or not it gets another life of people checking it out. It's going to do very well at the Emmys. Let's talk about reservation dogs first. Okay. So this is a new show that I would describe as, first of all, I would describe as wonderful.

I will always have time for shows that arrive kind of fully cooked, even though I think TV is about patience and allowing shows to sort of figure out what they are, even as they're airing. But even so, like I would say that this show knows what it is more than most. and it's from Tycho Waititi and Sterling Harjo, it's about four indigenous teens living in Oklahoma, and they're basically Bruce Springsteen song. They're trying to get the fuck out.

You know, they are dealing with some grief. They're dealing with some economic hardships, and they're kind of getting by hustling, doing some petty robbery, doing some cons, also just selling some meat pies outside of a health clinic. And it shows up, and like almost within the, the fifth frame or the first song you hear when they start playing the stooges, you, at least I,

I felt like I was in like a very comfortable and safe place where I was like, this is a warm bath of like stuff that I like. I like these kids. I like the sense of humor of the show. I like the drama of the show. I like the way it looks. I like the music that they're playing. I like the way it sounds. I love the performances. I've never been to this place, but I want to spend a ton of time there. And that's just what good TV does, right? Yeah, I agree with you. everything you said, I kind of want to just begin by giving the kudos to FX's half-hour development team and process. It really stands out. And I don't know the ins and outs of how they work versus how other networks work in this half-hour space. But I really can't think of a comparison

or any kind of competition where FX seems to just, not just, they put their money where their mouth is. Because everyone who takes a meeting for a half-hour show, we used to call them comedies, now they're half-hours, says, we want your vision. We understand what's going to make this special is your point of view, your distinct idiosyncratic sense of humor, your world, what makes you comfortable. And we want to help bring that to life. And then they start, you know, focus grouping and testing bigger stars just to add a little more shine to it and maybe bringing in consultants or whatever. And it changes. And the process is you can tell, you can feel the speed bumps even when eventually, you know, in the best cases, after five, ten episodes,

it smooths out. FX is on this run with Atlanta, with what we do in the shadows, with Dave, a show I haven't really engaged with, but by all accounts is exactly what I'm describing. And now reservation dogs where there aren't stars here, you know what I mean? There's very little attempt in any of those shows to be like, let's hold your hand until you feel comfortable here. Or let's throw you a couple bones so that you recognize things. things, they're just like, this is cool.

This is interesting. This is fun. And to your phrase, this is fully formed. And it's the best feeling that we can get from contemporary TV, right? Where I have never spent time on native lands in Oklahoma. This is an entire pocket universe within our country that is real. It's in our, I mean, obviously, this is heightened. This is comedy, et cetera, et cetera.

but FX trusted Sterling Harjo and to bring this to life. And if you look, and it's not just the fact that the cast is all indigenous and, at least to my mind, very few recognizable names. If you look at the director's list, right? If you look at the music is amazing in the show and totally evocative and cool and interesting and surprising. And you shazam it and you're like, oh, are these all Oklahoma, Oklahoma artists, mostly indigenous artists, other than the Stooges as you mentioned? Yes, they are. And how thrilling and how wonderful it is to find a show that looks at all of that opportunity. It looks at all of those, quote, unquote, unfamiliar to mainstream audiences, whatever that means anymore, possibility and sees it as an opportunity.

It's really fun. Yeah, I want to say also, like, I think you'll watch this if you haven't seen it already, but you check it out and you're like, this show, I wouldn't say it only could have happened in a post-Atlanta world. but I think Atlanta's success has a lot to do with shows like this because it does feel it has like a degree of kind of not meandering, but it's it's kind of, it's very much just like slice of life rather than there's not like a tremendous amount of urgency around any major plot point, at least in the first two episodes. But knowing a little bit about Sterling Hardrow's like background at the Sundance Institute and making independent features and just seeing his age and seeing. people walking around in this show wearing Wooten Klan shirts and him playing the Stooges. I have to imagine that he probably is like us, a child of 90s independent cinema. And the biggest influence that I detect in this show or the thing that I would say,

do you like this, then you'll like that is do you like early Richard Linklater? Like, do you like people hanging out and trying to make sense of the world around them? And if you do, please check this out. And if you, I would check it out either way. but, you know, one of the things that's been sort of not nagging at me, but I have noticed over the last, a couple of the shows that we've talked about this year, several of the shows that we've talked about this year is the dead body in the beginning, the mystery that we're trying to solve, even when you're like, does this show need to be a murder mystery or does it? I am referring to White Lotus, but there are others. And so far, there is nothing like that for reservation dogs. And I would say that the second episode, which is basically a day spent, outside of a health clinic in Oklahoma. And we should say the first two episodes are available now.

I think it is an FX on Hulu exclusive. So you have to have Hulu to be able to watch it. Yes. I would just say that it literally like everything happens, but nothing happens. Like it's just the way four teenagers spend a day. And there's a little miracles and there's a lot of comedy and there's a little bit of like drama and a little bit of sadness. But it features a really great cameo. I don't know if he's going to be recurring or not.

but Bobby Lee, who is a really funny comedian and has an awesome podcast called Tiger Belly, plays a doctor working in the clinic. He's amazing. Who's fucking hilarious. Yeah, I don't know. I just, I really like this show. I love the Richard Linklater call out. I think that's exactly right.

It's a vibe. And you're either here for it or you're not and you can settle into it. And it's so pleasurable to know it's out there. I think the other bona fides that I would shout out about Sterlin Harjo, who I'd never encountered his work before at all. It's not just the indie filmmaker stuff, which is prevalent. it's also the comedy stuff because he's in a comedy group

called the 1491's Native American Sketch Comedy Group. One of the other members of the group is a guy named Dallas Goldtooth who plays a very, very important character on the show, which is the sort of... Is he the warrior? He's the warrior spirit

that keeps coming to our main character bear when he gets knocked out. It's just like, these guys know what's funny too, and you can see it not just in the sort of the relaxed way that jokes are set up, up and deployed, but also in the casting on the margins, like you said, because it's not, Bobby Lee shows up and Breyer Patch alum Kirk Fox. Oh, he's great.

No better dirtbag. I was going to say as an actor, but maybe in life, shows up in the first episode. And most of all, the thing that I really want to shout out that makes me feel just really good about the show and excited about the show is the great actor, Zon McLarenin, who people know, I think from his brilliant turns in Fargo, season two, and people shout out his episode of Westworld, I think, as one of the best individual episodes of the series. And he's an incredibly evocative, dramatic actor.

That's all we've ever seen him do. So far, he's in both of these episodes. I don't know if he's going to be recurring, hopefully recurring beyond that. He's the town cop. And he's hilarious. And he's such a great energy, you know. And maybe I'm reading too much into it.

It's very possible. But the energy that I feel from his performance is just like, finally someone's going to let me do this. You know, finally I can just be a different kind of guy and have a different kind of intensity and have fun doing it. And from what I understand, the show was shot on location in Oklahoma. And, you know, you shouldn't take that stuff for granted. Like there's a reason why most networks and services,

and I say this, taking no checks from FX or Disney whatsoever, but even the most creatively empowered business affairs departments would at least run the powerpoint of how much money you could save if you shot this show in New Mexico or Georgia or Louisiana. And they didn't. And it's awesome. It's cool. I love it because it just bubbled up. And I can't wait to watch more.

And these kids are really good. The lead guy who plays bear to Farah Wunitai is like, oh. He's really good. This kid is maybe going to be an. incandescent shining star because he's just incredibly charismatic and good looking and seems to be able to just hang. Who knows? It's fun.

Yeah. To be in early on all of it. A real breath of fresh air. I'm so glad. I'm so glad it's on and I look forward to talking about it more. Do you want to do, let's talk about what if. Yeah, this is the show that really scratches all your pet peeves. So you texted me and you were like, this is like every, it ticks every box of things you

hate about popular culture, which I, I take it. strive, but also, I would say probably not. Like, I'm totally fine to, like, sit through anything animated, like, if I have to. Like the Miyazaki movie, you promised to watch? That's right. You go first, because I think you probably have a little bit more of a background in what if as a comic series. Like with everything, Marvel, when we talk about this, there's a, it's a two-track conversation.

The first track is just, you know, there's very little else to do. but tip your dumb dumb dougan war cap and be like, you guys have this unlock, you figured this out. When I became a comic fan when I was like 13 or 14 years old, yes, I thought Wolverine was cool and Cyclops and I thought the X-Men were interesting and the idea of joining something in the middle, that there was just, you know, at that point 30 years plus of history that I didn't even know about waiting to be discovered and how everything was connected. That was all thrilling. But the thing that sealed the deal for me was when probably my buddy Mazze who gave me my first issue of X Factor gave me an issue of What If?

Which was an intermittently published comic by Marvel that just let creators do exactly what the series does which is just go bananas on topics really big like I mean I don't have the list of stories in front of me but they were like what if I mean the essentially version of it would be like what if Thanos won

but then other really doofy versions like what if the spider didn't bite Peter Parker, it bit a dog and there was spider dog. I mean, that wasn't an issue, but they could have been. Right. The sheer elasticity of this massive creative thing that held room within itself for high drama and also high comedy, seriousness and absurdity, everything that happened in a fictional world, but also all the things that maybe could have happened and those things were secretly cooler,

that really, that did me in. That's when I became a huge fan. And so the Marvel, current Marvel entertainment team, knowing that this is in their back pocket, and also knowing that they were going to start doing multiversal storytelling, why not? And more than why not, do it as a cartoon so you don't have to drag everyone back. And you can get, you know, all these actors are coming through Georgia anyway to do their various projects. You pull them off into a booth for 20 minutes, and that's how you get a single episode of a cartoon on Disney Plus that has, like more A-list stars in it in its 24 minutes than most live-action things.

Right. They all, other than Chris Evans, I think they're all there, right, voicing their characters. Yeah, I can't remember. Did Bradley Woodford, was he in the first Captain America movie? This brings me to the second point. I'm not going to look and find out. I have hit my limits. Like, in that specific, I'm glad you brought that up.

I was like, hey, was Bradley Woodford playing that part? You know what? Life's too short. Like, that's fine. I don't actually care if he was or not. But so kudos to them for being like, here's another way. we can mine this universe for fun and potentially unearth things that could turn into real things. The second track conversation, the one you're not ready to have, Chris, and actually you are ready to have it.

What if Red Skull was right? I love it. Did you get Red Skulled? Is that what happened when you watched this episode? There's some incredible YouTube videos. I'll send you later. I just, the second thing was, is just this, this all. may be my limit of like part of the fun of the Marvel Cinematic Universe is that it's real actors doing these things and you know the the filmmakers and artisans behind the scenes being like well you've you've read about cosmic cubes for years here's what they would look like and like that's still fun and exciting this felt like a you know it's it's sort of amusing and entertaining fan service and nothing about it struck me as particularly thrilling. It's fine. It's a fine thing to spend 24 minutes on and Haley Atwell's cool and okay. But I don't find myself getting super high or low about it. It just exists. Me neither. I think it's like probably a case of like anything that Marvel does moves the stock market.

So it's worth paying attention to. But then you realize, you know, you're talking about like a 32 minute cartoon or whatever that that is largely like a reshoot of Captain America until the final few minutes, obviously with the major characters being moved around, but a lot of the action set pieces, right? Like, they are, I think, taken from the movie. I mean, there's plenty of shots that are shot for shot from the Captain America movie. And the rest of the shots are taken from Watchmen, which I thought was super weird. That was weird. I will say this. Like, you know, Disney, by the end of the most recent Star Wars trilogy of films, right? I think plenty of people were like, I waited X amount of years for this to happen.

And when you finally gave it to me, you basically just told the same story over again. And I think that for whether or not you did or didn't like The Last Jedi or whether or not you think that there's a lot to like about that trilogy on the whole but had some problems in the end, however you're feeling about Star Wars these days, let's put that in a box. I do think that there was like a little bit of a like, are we ever going to move forward in this world?

You know? And Marvel, to their credit, also a Disney property, have done a very good job being like, chapter closed, let's move on. While subtly letting all those people live on on Disney Plus and exploring, you know, yeah, sure, we're exploring more complex emotional situations or sociopolitical issues on those, on those series. But like, essentially it's still members of the Avengers hanging out. You know what I mean?

Like we're still seeing these people. even if we're telling new stories. So this is a really slick way of basically starting a new quote-unquote phase while also never leaving the other phases behind. And what if, you know, like you're saying, like there is like a kind of playfulness and mischievousness to it at its center

that it could have. But ultimately what I think it's going to be is let's mess around and just kind of remix some of the greatest hits, right? Yeah, I mean, the one thing that no version of what if could really do, and this is a slippery slope to be on in comic books or in TV, is you can't suggest something that everyone at the end of it is like, that would have been better. Like, that's risky.

Right. Because you kind of, I think the most interesting thing about this series would be like, you know, where they actually went right at mistakes they made. You know what I mean? Like, what if we hadn't cast Tilda Swinton as the ancient one in Dr. Strange? Sure. Like, obviously, that's not what this show is. I think that to your point, every move that they do, and I remain in awe of it because there's always legitimate, if not excellent, artistic cover for the decisions.

But every move they make is how can we keep this going? And not in the sense of telling the Star Wars story again, but how can we keep mining something? They don't leave story on the bone. And so when you have an idea like, okay, the adventures of Steve and Karen and Howard Stark in World War II, which got, you. you know, yada yotted because it was a feature film and a different era. And also those actors didn't want to do 10 movies of the first 10, you know, first 30 minutes of the film. You could do a comic book version of the Howland Commandos. You could make a whole series about Captain Carter and Bucky and Steve as Hydra Smash or whatever.

Like, sure, you can do that now. And the actors would love it because they get paid. They don't have to work that hard. And it doesn't matter if they get older or cut their hair or whatever. So that's another line for them here. and it's impressive. Can you help me get my head around on what happens at the end of this episode then?

So am I supposed to... So basically, spoiler alert, if you haven't watched this episode, you can stop listening now. The Captain Carter, or she goes through this portal and winds up, I guess, right before what the Avengers...

So it's the Avengers movie. So the implication, and by the way, for super nerds, it's notable that she's Captain Carter, not Captain Britain, who is a character, but is more closely connected to the X-Men, and doesn't have a shield. They're saving that part for Steve Coogan. I mean, now you're just breaching to the choir here.

Although I believe Captain Britain is now Betsy Braddock, so it's a woman. Although Steve Coogan might be controversial casting, but I think could also be excellent. The implication, and this is always the fun thing in the what-if stories, too, and I think there's actually a whole spin-off character unrelated to the what-if mythos where like what if Gwen Stacy lived but Peter Parker died and Gwen Stacy becomes kind of a

spider woman character and et cetera, et cetera. The fun thing is like the stories tend to hit the same beats. Like you can change some pieces, but you can't change the overall shape of history like X, the characters might be different, but X will still lead to Y. And so the thing here was no matter who gets the super soldier serum, someone sacrifices is him, his or herself for the good of everyone and then is unfrozen, essentially, or reclaimed in the future. And in this case, Peggy is returned by Nick Fury being like, what happened all my friends?

And he's like, the war is over. And so then there could be another story. And I'm sure, due to the positive reception of this, they're working on it, where the Avengers are formed with this new reality, where she's the new leader of the new Avengers. Not the only Avengers in that alternate universe. I mean, the crazy thing would be, again, it's overly complicated, but if all the what-if stories took place in the same all the universe, but that's not what if is.

Okay. All right. You're going to keep watching? I will go piecemeal. Like, if there's a... I may be wrong about this, but I was Googling it, and it seems like they're pretty discreet. They're being close to the vest about what stories they're telling

and whose voices are going to be in them, so I know nothing. What's your greatest unanswered question about the Marvel Union? universe. Boy, that's good. These are the sort of questions that other podcasts talk about before they record. What was the Vodorama

like on the Socovia Accords? You know, what kind of amendments got attached? What kind of pork barrel politics were involved? You know, like, what did West Virginia get out of the Socovia?

Did Socovia get like an Olympic stadium in the, you know, like once they rebuilt Socovia, I guess. Have we ever covered that? Like, does Secovia have a seat at the table? Yeah, anymore? Cicovia.

Seriously. Euro 2024 in Cicovia? Yeah. Yeah. And did like, did they become like a petro state kind of because they have all this like infusion of maybe, uh. Chris. They became a Pietro state.

So if they, but like let's say Ciccovia swimming in it. Do you think Leo Messi goes play for a Cicovia FC? Oh my God. I love this. So you have a very, this is beautiful. This is what separates us. You know, I started this podcast by. just sort of feeling sad about the state of the world

and how broken and underdeveloped humanity is. And Chris is like, the World Bank will restore Socovia beyond its former glory in a matter of like five short years. Like you really believe in the international project. All my chips are on Christine Lagrand. I just think she's a great lady

and she's got such a vision for civilization. It's a beautiful thing. Love to borrow at low interest rates. Let's get into my interview with Andrew Hay and Jack O'Connell. Andy, it was great talking to you today. Chris, before we do, should we tease? I know you know I like to keep things secret, but... I don't know why. Like, let's say, we have Barry Jenkins on the show on Monday.

We have, like, America's greatest living filmmaker, Barry Jenkins on our podcast. Yeah, it was, you know, I think Andy and I had sort of, we've been like, we're going to talk about Underground Railroad. And then when this sort of became a possibility, I think we decided to save our conversation for when we talked to Barry. I think we'll do, like, a kind of more larger sort of like our critical, discussion of the show before the interview on Monday's show, we'll say that, like, you know, obviously a very challenging thing to watch. You know, it's not an entertaining or fun thing to watch. I think most people would agree. I think even Barry Jenkins would agree. But it's an important thing to watch. And I think it is a pretty amazing achievement in the medium. And what was cool is talking to Barry

about what the hell the medium is anymore. Yeah. And also just what he brings to it. I mean, he's just such a staggeringly beautiful filmmaker. And watching this is just, deeply, yeah, as you said, a deeply challenging, but also deeply aesthetic and emotional experience at times. So we're both grateful that we watched it. We're mentioning it now, not just because we're super stoked that Barry Jenkins is on our podcast, but also to say, you guys got four days to finish Undergrad Railroad. All of it's streaming on Amazon. So yeah, we're going to get to my interview with Jack and Andrew in just a second. I will mention before we get into it that we had a couple of audio issues with Jack's audio. So there might be a couple of hiccups in there, but otherwise a great

Two great characters and an amazing show. So after a quick break, we'll get into my interview with the Northwaters, Andrew Hay, and Jack O'Connell. Thank you, Brandskis, and thank you, Kai McMullen, for producing. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last-minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for, that's when Prime's same-day delivery as you're back.

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Book it with Priceline. Download the Priceline app or visit Priceline.com and book your next trip today. Go to your happy price. Priceline. I just am so excited to have Jack and Andrew with me because Northwater is, if not my favorite, one of my favorite things I've seen this year.

It is an extraordinary piece of work. And a lot of it is down to these guys. Jack, I'm going to start with you. Because there's a lot written about the extreme circumstances of the shoot of the production. What did Andrew have to say to convince you to get this cold? Oh man. Not a lot. Not a lot really. I think it was mainly the main draw was the sort of opportunity to be out there and doing it. And instead of being in a studio and having to imagine and recreate and try and convince people that, you know, we were experiencing any level

of hardship. It was, you know, it was offered to us by virtue of just being there. So, I mean, that's a real treat that, you know, you've got one less thing to think about within the performance. So, yeah, he did not a lot of convincing. There was no elevator pitch. Not really, to be honest. No, no, no, no.

I mean, a lot of time myself and Andrew spoke was in reference to the character. Like, I think that's what we mainly got in depth about was his philosophy on Sumner and my philosophy and the two kind of, you know, intellectual understanding of things. So I wanted to sort of explore that and explore that with Andrew and his take on Sumner. helped me to do that. And it was, yeah, I always came away from those conversations with Andrew, feeling very much more informed and much more educated and an eye-opening to things I hadn't previously considered. So, yeah, listen, I was sold straight away.

Andrew, what was that take on Sumner? Because I find him to be an incredibly complicated protagonist and a continually surprising one over the course of the series. Obviously, he goes through a bunch of figurative rebirths. That's in a lot of ways what the series is about. But it must be exciting to write a character or to adapt a character that goes through this metamorphosis over the course of five hours. Yeah, I think what I loved about it,

and it was there in the original book, was how kind of complex Sumner's character is and how he's not like a traditional hero in any normal sense. you know, normally these characters are quite straightforward, and they have this kind of simple desire for redemption. And then they find that redemption, and then that's the end of the story. And I feel like that for Sumner,

he is so wounded by so many things that have happened to him in the past and his struggle to get on with life, that it keeps chasing him. And every time he sort of gets over one thing, he has to get over something different. And that's what I really liked about his character. It's a constant struggle. He thinks he's about to understand,

or work something out, and then there's another thing that he has to be to fight and struggle against. And that to me is just a really truthful, I suppose, depiction of a character. It's not as if we go through

struggle and then find the answer. There's always one thing leading to another thing, leading to another thing. One of the things that I loved about it was, I mean, when you describe your take on this character, and you talk about these obstacles,

and I think back through the episodes about everything, that he goes through. There's elements of this that are very straightforward adventure. On the other hand, there are elements of the series that feel like a horror movie or feel like a medical procedural or a detective show and some that feel like, I just, I think there's so much in this project that must be, have been really quite fun to chew on for both of you. Jack, did you feel like you got to be in several different shows at once? I think Jack's microphone is muted. I can talk to that too, if that helps.

Yeah, please, by all means. Yeah, I mean, that's what I love about the story, actually, to be honest with you. Like, you can go into it with certain expectations of what kind of, what's, how this story is going to unfold. And you think, oh, it's going to be a procedural thriller, or it's going to be a horror story, or it's going to be some existential drama. And it's all of those things, and often all in the same episode. And I find that a really fascinating way to tell a story because it sort of constantly throws the audience off balance. think it's going to be one thing and then it becomes something else, which is essentially what

it's like for someone within the story. Well, one minute, he thinks it's one thing and then it becomes something else. Yeah, they think they're going on a whaling expedition. It turns out there on an insurance scam. Then it turns into a survival story and then it turns into basically a Western vengeance story where he's going to track this guy down across an incredible landscape. You know, it's got such a distinctive look. But I was wondering, did you think about things in terms of reference points or influences. Did you watch anything that actually, you know, on first viewing, nobody would know that you were actually, you know, screening certain films or certain shows because you wanted to get a certain kind of feel for it? I try, I often try not to watch too many

things when I'm kind of leading up to shooting something. I think it can, for me, it can almost be more distracting. So the anti-Tarantino then, you don't show 700 movies before you shoot in, Glorious bastards or something. Yeah. Basically, it would make me too nervous. there'd be too much to me to have to compare myself to. So, I mean, I think I knew that we were going to be shooting in the real environment. So really that kind of dictates a lot of how you decide to shoot it. And I think all I wanted to do was make it feel as kind of visceral and as grounded as I possibly could. And I think that kind of dictates a lot of how the show ends up feeling.

And, you know, I did watch, you know, I watched other kind of boat, ship-based dramas for kind of references, especially on how to make the ship. when you're inside feel like it's moving. It's such a tricky technical thing to make it feel like you're moving when essentially for those interior scenes you're on a sound stage. Yeah, right.

I mean, there's the famous anecdote about Jaws where Spielberg originally wanted to nail everything down on a tripod and his director of photography. He was like, if you do that, people are going to be throwing up in the aisle. It's true. You really have to find a way to adapt

to kind of the movement of the ship and how, you know, when you're shooting on the ship for real and then reflect that when you're, you're shooting on a soundstage for some of the interior scenes. Jack, for those exteriors... I'm back here, please. I'm back again.

So, yeah, yeah, I've got my technology set now. Jack, for the exterior especially, did you find that the point, like, to get from A to B as a performer as an actor, was that much of a cleaner line because there was very little pretending going on, especially when you're in that setting? Yeah, it's a treat.

It's a treat. I think you just get to kind of feel organically and nothing really is wrong then. You're not having to kind of dig for anything and you're just sort of dealing with the hardships of what is a very inhospitable environment. So it's a total treat. And yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it just kind of free, as I said before, you're free and you're focusing on the other stuff then. And, you know, I mean, compare that to being on a sound stage somewhere, wearing all these layers, as you would do out in that climate, but actually being boiling hot. I mean, that's pull that off as an actor. That's probably more impressive. Right.

It's more impressive to, in some ways, act against a green screen in some ways. You know, for both of you guys. And, Andrew, we can start with you. You know, one of the things is it's a hallmark of this series. is the feeling that you're getting exactly what you want. Now, I know you might smirk at that because I'm sure you would say, there are plenty of times where I didn't get what I wanted. There were plenty of things that I wish I could go back and change.

But, you know, can you talk to me a little bit about the tension that might have been there of having something in your head that you would love to execute, but then shooting in such an extreme environment that sometimes you're going to have to take whatever it gives you? Yeah, it's true. Like, you know, I always, I'm quite, I pre-plan as much. as I can in terms of getting an idea of how I want to shoot something. But I don't storyboard and I don't shot list down to the kind of minutiae of what I need to get. And I think I have to work like that. And in this kind of environment, there is really no choice. So you might think there

is one way that you want to shoot, say, the seal hunt. But then in the reality of it, we couldn't find enough ice to work on for a while. We had to settle around looking for stable enough ice to put the ship alongside and then we had a couple of hours to shoot it. So you have to Another gift of global warming that you couldn't find any ice? Pretty much. Yeah, there was a lot less ice than we thought there should be. They usually is at that time of year. And so you have less time than you would like.

And, you know, we were losing, it was getting darker by about half an hour each day. It was getting darker and darker and darker. But, you know, the truth is, I love that kind of, that excitement and that tension that is created because it means you have to think on your feet. You have to think, okay, this is actually the shot that we, that we need to shoot now to make this, to make the sequence work. And I kind of love that. It creates an excitement and attention and, you know, everybody feels it and you have to work as hard as you can, as quick as you can. And sometimes having too much time and too much time to

kind of think about things is actually the worst thing for you. You know, Jack, you're in almost every scene in this series, but the thing that I love so much about your performance is what an extraordinary scene partner you are. Like some of my favorite moments of the show are when you're reacting to someone else's behavior, especially in some of the moments you have with Colin. And I was just wondering if you could talk about the experience of working with him, but also what it was like when he would surprise you on set. Because I feel like there are a couple of moments, especially when you are interrogating him about the cabin boy, and there's a sort of big turn there, that you just seem sincerely

surprised by what is happening and it is like the most it's the most natural reaction it really grabs you by your collar yeah oh thank you i think Colin like I mean he's he's an actor of what I described as a certain caliber so you know you you know that you're going to get something extraordinarily special from him every time you go at it so that again just just makes your life easier because you have something sort of phenomenal to be acting with and so there's not a lot of effort that goes

into finding these organic moments with him and I'll say that while he was Drax I was massively intimidated by him in scenes and whatever else and that that is then coupled with being enamoured by him when he wasn't Drax because Colin and Drax, to state they're painfully obvious,

are two very different people. I would hope so. Just to make that clear, yeah, to everyone. He's, like, Colin's like a very soulful, gentle man, an amazing company and, you know, a great, a great mentor throughout that period of time. So, yeah, you just, for me, in answer to that, you just make the most of it and you just turn up and try and be as present as he's obviously able to be.

And that's it just kind of contributed to an altogether unforgettable experience for me. I will say that what Jack is so brilliant at is he really does commit to the moment of the performance. So like, you know, he's so committed to finding like as much truth. as he can within the scene. And he'll go to extremes sometimes to get there, which is so incredible to watch. And I think that's why, as you say, he's so good in the scenes

when he is just listening to someone or when he's reacting to someone because he is there in that moment. And a lot of actors aren't quite like that. They can be a lot more kind of selfish with their performance, and Jack just isn't. He is there as Sunder every step of the way.

And, you know, I think that's why he's so brilliant in the show. How much of DRAX is on the page in the novel versus what Colin sort of specifically brought to it versus what you had in your head, Andrew? I was curious about the assembly of that character and the different sort of authors of it. Yeah, because I think in the book, Dax is almost a pure monster. And I think I wanted Dax to also have, this may sound strange, but an attractive quality. at least to Sumner, so that Sumner is drawn into Drax's world and drawn into trying to understand him rather than just be immediately repelled by him. And I think in the book, you are repelled by Drax almost straight away. And for me, it was more interesting that you were drawn closer into Drax's world. And Colin is very good at making him attractive as well as making him repellent.

and so I think Colin finds that balance within the character. Jack, there aren't very many roles where I imagine you get to do so much. I mean, short of having a love interest, this character really gets to be a doctor. He gets to be an avenging angel. He's a survivalist. He's a leader, but he's also an addict and he's got these PTSD, you know, memories of what happened to him in India. I mean, it is the full buffet, I imagine, of, like, the human experience.

That must have been part of what made this such a meaty role to take on. I mean, yeah, I think that's a fair description of most people. In reality, most people aren't either one thing or another. And some has a wealth of experience in different fields via the vehicle of his medical, profession. So in order to prepare for the role then was important for me to read various literature based on what he'd experienced. So, you know, for example, there's a great book called The Siege of Krishna, which kind of takes you to basically the Raj and the war that Sumner was involved in. So, and then there were other books. There were like, you know, Victorian

studies on on surgery of that period which were greatly helpful so a lot of this that stuff kind of happened in prep just to kind of make me at least feel like I had license to be inventive and feel like I had earned some level of understanding Andrew I wanted to ask you know as you're assembling this uh as this piece and I know you used to work on on Ridley scott films as as an editor and and that that's sort of of your background comes in in the sort of post-production. When you're making something that's going to be five hours as opposed to a feature, how does your brain change in terms of pacing, in terms of cutting,

in terms of assembling something that's going to have ins and outs as an episode and, you know, the arcs of each 60 minutes versus the arc of a two-hour and change film or thinking in terms of this is actually a five-hour statement? Yeah, it's definitely a challenge sometimes. I mean, I always, I wanted to think of it as, as you say, a five-hour state. It's a five-hour movie, but obviously a five-hour movie is a very long movie. It is about trying to find the highs and lows within each hour of the episode. Because you have to realize, sometimes I like to forget that people are actually watching it as a TV show,

but you have to remember that. And people do need to have something to bring them through the hour that leaves them wanting more that can then lead to the next episode. So I'm certainly aware of that. And, you know, we played a lot with certain. endings and beginnings and things changed along the way and endings that you thought were going to be the endings turned out not to be the endings and a few scenes shifted within the episodes. But it's just about trying to find its own with them. And I think my instincts are always more filmic than they are television. So I think even in terms of like how the episodes unfold and how

they're edited and how they're shot to me, they still feel more like they have a film language in a film editing rhythm than more traditional TV. And that was important to me because I still wanted it to feel like, you know, in 10 years' time, if you come across this show, it's like, oh, it is a five-hour piece, you know, in its entirety. And that's important to me. You can forget that sometimes when it's just, it's not just the moment that it comes out. It has a like longevity and it has a future.

And so we always think about those things. And sometimes, you know, you struggle to find the right rhythms with an episode to end in the right way. you know, yeah, it's an ongoing process. It was made slightly harder with how we had to edit this, which was remotely during COVID, you know, not all being necessarily in the same room as the editors, and that has its own kind of challenges. So did you finish shooting before sort of the lockdowns began

and then go into post after? Well, we sort of, we finished the bulk of the shooting before COVID, but then there was a week that we were supposed to shoot in Canada, in the Arctic up in Canada, that we couldn't shoot because of COVID. So we had to change and shoot some other stuff in studio when we didn't want to, which was, you know, deeply depressing at the time. And, you know, it's always a shame.

But, you know, you have to do these things. Obviously, we didn't want to put anyone at risk during the pandemic. So it was challenging. And then some of the edit, it was done before lockdown. And then some of it was done afterwards. Some of the mixing had to be done. And some of the grading was all done remotely. So it was definitely a different.

experience and I love being in the room with people when you're working on these things. So it makes it slightly more complicated. But you know, it does work. You can do it remotely. However frustrating it can feel. Jack, did you, you know, when you're in a piece like this or when you're doing something that you were also extraordinary in, which was godless, which I also loved, do you have to pace your performance differently? Is there, is there like a different way to tune your instrument when you're going to be in most of the scenes of a five-hour? series versus, you know, three quarters of the scenes in a feature or whatever, like, whatever the case may be, but, you know, is there a different way that you prepare yourself, like,

almost physically and emotionally outside of, like, how you, how you get ready to do the acting? I mean, largely, I think that is dictated by the writing and the requirements then of the character you're portraying and how he's so relating to the story unfolding. so and there there has to be some level of texture and and just for the purposes of avoiding monotony really and just to try and make sort of feel like I'm making a character as believable and realistic essentially as possible so there's like there's an element of that being considered throughout and then obviously Obviously, Andrew, with the excellent steerage that I felt that was on offer to me through portraying Sumner would be a constant in that part of that whole process. So, yeah, I mean, I'm not sure.

I'm not sure if there's any kind of level of pacing. But again, you know, there are times where it's okay to just do nothing. And, you know, and that's beautiful too. in fact you know but arguably as interesting if not more

to what you you know you don't react to and what you know where the stillness happens so

yeah on the overall it's definitely a different craft filmmaking but you know I think at second what Andrew said

like I witnessed a lot of his instincts being very filming and I think that that is then translated on screen because I think we both agree that I certainly feel like it's a five-hour

long one piece as opposed to five installments, six installments, five or six, I'm like. It's basically like three films shot on a TV schedule, which is always the problem. So you're trying to make something filmic when you're like, oh my God, we've got to do this amount of pages each day. So it's like... Producers love it. Produces love it, I know. I feel like more and more TV.

They're like, so we want you to make it look like a film, but we're going to give you a TV schedule, and you have to shoot it all in this amount of time. I wanted to know whether or not there were any cliches or tropes that you wanted to avoid while making this. And I'm going to get into Slept somewhat, you know, this is going to go up the day of the finale going up. So hopefully folks will get to catch up.

But if you're listening to this and you haven't seen it yet, you can stop and I'll end the interview soon. But when the group is sort of stuck on this remote island and they're doing some trading with Eskimos to get a very bare minimum amount of supplies, the thing that struck me about that whole sequence was there are very few moments where everybody collapses to their knees and says, God, why have you forsaken us? And there's not a lot of hysterics going on.

These are people who are obviously trained to expect the world. worst. And I thought that that trickled down all the way to the ways in which the performers seem to be interacting with each other on the island. It made for much more compelling. It just made it much more compelling to watch because you didn't have to get through the inevitable like, well, are they going to turn on each other? And now that there's going to be this. And it's just like, no, it's obvious. Drax is going to go break bad as soon as he gets these handcuffs off. But the thing that's really incredible is you can see Sumner sort of rise as a leader as he sort shakes off the laudanum and he becomes sort of the sort of centerpiece of this group

trying to keep them together and Andrew I was curious whether or not when writing that when shooting it did you really like we have to avoid certain cliches that come along with men in distress stories yeah I think so I mean I think I'm always trying to find the kind of like side angle into this story the one that's slightly different from the story as it's normally told And I think that really comes down to trying not to, there's so many cliches about men being together, like especially in this kind of environment, as you say, like men turning on each other, men becoming violent, like testosterone-fueled rage. And I try to find something different than that. And I think, you know, there's almost like there's both the kind of resilience that comes out within these people and an acceptance and a sort of semi-compassion for each other within the story, which I like. and I didn't want it to feel, I didn't want the show at all to feel too testosterone, if that makes sense, even though it's a story about men. So I wanted to find the kind of different nuance in male relationships and male friendships and how they need each other and how they can turn on

each other, but how they can also support each other. And I think that kind of trickles down into how the performances are. It's almost like a, it's kind of gentler than you might imagine this kind of story being. And I think that is just my. instincts and the way that I want to look at masculinity, I suppose, rather than it being all about kind of hero and villain, it being something a bit thornyer and more interesting. And I think that leads to the story. And then going into kind of the final episode when Sumner gets back to Hull, where you sort of expect this huge redemptive ending. I didn't want that to happen either. I wanted it just to be a bit more nuanced. And Jack, on that island, you know, one

That's fascinating, by the way. This man's a genius. Why do you find it fascinating? Tell me about it. I was just thinking to articulate as it relates to cliche, just to articulate it in a way that is sort of was paramount to us all out there. It was like coming in at this sort of side angle and, you know, and sort of playing off those cliches.

But I think that's genius. No, and you know, by that same token, Jack, the one, the thing I love the most about that, that whole sequence of scenes on the island is that when your character Sumner kind of gets out from under his laudanum addiction, he becomes this leader, but the way he leads is, is very, it's got a light touch because it's almost you're leading as a surgeon. You're saying, look, I'm not going to make you walk around, but I'm going to tell you what happens if you don't, you know, and I'm not going to stop. you from trying to screw over these Eskimos in your trade. But if you do, like, we're up Shits Creek without a paddle if, if this goes wrong. And I loved how you, like, your performance almost, after you've kind of like gotten out from the, uh, the shakes from, from having the addiction, like, your character kind of like almost stands up a little bit straighter and he has kind of like a different demeanor and gait. It's, it's an incredible, like, switch there. Can you tell me a little bit about what happened? Did you purposely

like sort of change the way this character was once he stopped drinking the laudanum? I think yeah for sure for sure it was like um it was apparent that this guy is riddled um by the fact that opium has him in this evil uh grasp

so and it's for me it was like a coming to realize the sort of potential of this individual once he'd involuntarily been freed of his addiction

and that's very simply put and I don't think it was like one you know it didn't wake up one day and that was that I don't want to do a disservice to the reality of what that is but it was

yeah it was it was important and I think there's like a common trait with maybe it's people of a particular era or you certainly experience it today within certain individuals, albeit perhaps a little rarer, a quality that is like, the wisdom of it. Yeah. Of, you know, being able to have a level of compassion or an awareness that that can't be the ultimate driving force.

You know, what has to happen in this extreme circumstance for the purposes of surviving is it has to be pragmatic. Yeah, it's rational. It's rational. Pragmatic, you know, streamline. You can't afford hysteria in that type of circumstance. And to see someone's reckoning with that was very exciting when I read that. And just to sort of use his education. Use his head.

Use his head in order to survive. And where everywhere else there might be panic or a more natural reaction to impending death and horrific death. Some of his attitude to that is more pragmatic and cerebral, which fascinated me initially and that became an important part of the uniform. of him and his story.

What's really interesting what you say there, Jack, is like, and this is an example of how he's not a traditional hero. In a traditional story, he would have chosen to give up the drugs. He would have been,

I'm going to put these drugs behind me and now I'm going to be a better man. Basically, he's desperate for those drugs, and it's because the ship sinks that he can't get the drugs. And it's all those little details that make him not a hero, but in doing so,

he becomes the hero of the story, I guess, because he is more of a realistic hero. You know, we don't always find the strength to battle our demons. Sometimes it's taken out of our hands. I love the moment where he asks the priest for laudanum. I mean, it was like, because like this guy has just been inside of a bear. You know, he's, he probably is just like, as soon as he hears about medicine, he's like getting laudanum.

I mean, like, this isn't, this isn't a closed chapter for him. But in the circumstances, he becomes a different person. I just, I adored this series so much. I don't want to go too far into the details of the last scene, but one of the things I thought was amazing was you end this series and it feels very complete, but then you're also like, what happens to this guy next?

I mean, I'm sure that you must have asked yourselves this question, but here's this guy and he's in, I guess, at this point, what 1860s, Berlin, and what if fascinating,

what if or what next for him, right? I mean, Jack, do you ever wonder what happens? to Sumner next? I mean, at the time, definitely. And, you know, yeah, I think it's,

he's, he's where, he's right where he ought to be. And that's sort of what was interesting about that for me was it was a kind of a slight actualization. Mm-hmm. And so, finally. But yeah, it's an interesting question, but I haven't got anything profound. in my response. No, I mean, I suppose an actor usually has to think about a character's past and not

worry too much about their future, right? I mean, for me, what was interesting about it was that I wanted to put across the sense that, you know, he's done things within the course of this story, that he is not going to be able to forget or that he's proud of doing. Like, even towards the end of the story without giving too much away, he does something that he probably didn't need to necessarily do. In the traditional story, it's like, yes, you've won, but what's the ramifications of winning. Like, what is the ramifications of what he's done? Like, he will be forever haunted by what happened within this story. Just like as he came onto the ship, he was haunted by what happened in India or what happened in his childhood. And it's almost like he's managed to get over those things,

but now we have new things to haunt us as we go forward. And so there will always be those additional struggles that we have to try and overcome in some regard. Yeah, while you're dragging yourself around, dragging your past around through all these experiences as well. Just wanted to say thank you to both of you for making this show. It was really quite something to watch. I hope everybody gets a chance to check it out. Jack, Andrew, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you. Because while I've got him, just while we're on the same line, please hire me, Andrew. Please, man, please. If you're doing me next, just just please hire me. I'll do anything. I've never begged anybody in my life. You're already here first. Thanks so much,

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