The Watch - ‘Ripley’ Is the Best Show of the Year So Far. Plus, ‘Fantastic Four’ Casting News and ‘Hacks.’

Episode Date: May 13, 2024

Chris and Andy talk about the just-OK box office performance of ‘The Fall Guy’ and what that says about the state of the movie industry right now (11:09). Then they talk about some more casting news for ‘Fantastic Four’ (19:07) before discussing the first four episodes of ‘Hacks’ Season 3 and the crossroads where the show finds itself right now (27:19). Finally, they talk about the final three episodes of ‘Ripley’ and why it is their favorite show of the year so far (37:43). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Bill Simmons. I am thrilled to announce our newest YouTube channel. It's called Ringer Movies. If you're a fan of our movie coverage here at The Ringer, then you're in luck. Because every episode of The Rewatchables and the Big Picture, now on YouTube. Like Bill said, Ringer movies will feature full episodes of my show, The Big Picture, the Rewatchables, as well as special live episodes, deep dives into movie history, and a bunch of other fun stuff featuring other movie-loving Ringer personalities.

Search Ringer Movies on YouTube and Experience the Joy, Chris Ryan impersonating Wayne Jenkins on camera. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, guselcomab, taken by injection, is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy, and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis.

serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before a treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks.

Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run.

Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio, recently throwing himself deeply into a study of Caravaggio. It's Andy Greenwald. You're changing momentum on your pitch. I had to come up with that, like, at the last second.

I saw that. Yeah. The catcher in my head just shook me off. And I was like, ah, shit. The catcher in your head, that's not you, though, because you were a catcher. Yeah, right. That's why I always have a catcher in my head that's like, come on. Do you think that's why you're so good?

Is that why you're so good at hosting podcasts and, like, running, traffic control on this stuff? Well, I actually would say that it is similar, like, I think that I knew at a young age that I needed to kind of keep myself a little occupied. Like, I was not going to be a very engaged right fielder. Oh, oh, okay. I needed to be like, every pitch needed to run through me. Not because I thought, like, only I can solve it, but because I was like, otherwise I'm just

going to get really bored. What were you going to be thinking about, do you think? Like, circa 1986, shagging flies. The funny thing is probably baseball, but just not the baseball game that was, like, The baseball you wished You were playing. Yeah, I would just be like thinking about Mike Greenwell and Ellis Berks.

One Samwell. Exactly. It's awesome to see you. It's awesome to be back on L.A. time. Are you? Do you feel all adjusted? Yeah, it's just everybody chilled out on the roads. Everybody's driving really well now.

I find it really convenient. The weather's great, you know. What was the thing? Yeah, it's slate metal gray outside. This entire downtown area is under construction. Yeah. What was your like, I'm baby, What was your welcome to USA? Welcome back to the United States moment.

My moment, well, the thing is the welcome to USA moment, and we both got back to American soil on Wednesday, last Wednesday, but it took some time to adjust time-wise. The good thing, I guess, about the cluster fuck at the airports is that, like, you get welcome back to the U.S. real quick when you hit that line. Yeah. So you're back. For me, my welcome back to L.A. moment was-Oh, you don't have global entry? Wow. Damn, sailed right through. I don't, I don't travel internationally as much as you, you know?

You might want to look into it. I'm thinking about it. But what if I confessed on this podcast that there was a snag with my application? My welcome to L.A. moment, welcome back to L.A. moment, was like, okay, well, you know, I had a wonderful time away. But at least it's springtime here, you know, in the breadbasket of America, California. Maybe I'll buy some farm fresh strawberries. The bread basket? Is that what you think where we live? I'm just trying to be positive, man.

So I was like, maybe I'll buy some farm fresh strawberries. And do you know how much Harry's berries are retailing for here in Los Angeles these days? At the farmer's market or at like Gelsons or something. Gelson. What do you think I'm made of money? No. Christ. No.

No, at a local, let's say a farm shop. Uh-huh. We won't name names. They're retailing for $25. That seems a bit extreme. It's fucking crazy. And what's that? Is that because of bird flu?

Like, what's the trickle-darders are sick or the farmers? are sick. I just think we're broken. Kai, would you have guessed $25 bucks for the best strawberries? For Harry's berries? Yes. Yeah, I would. Wow. It's out of strawberry inflation is... What's that about? You know, Harry's berries.

It's Harry. Joe Biden? Look, I mean, I know he's not, he doesn't need... Worry less about campus encampments and worry more about these berries. Am I right? Per your guy, Nate Cohn, Joe does need to worry about California. I think there seems some other areas that I should be focusing on.

But at the same time, I mean this sincerely. Like, I've never pulled the I Remember When card in California because I haven't lived here that long. But everyone's like, yeah, come, oh, fresh produce. Oh, the fruit's so wonderful. And yes, Harry's berries is a thing. And you're like, they're the best. And you can get them. It's like, great.

Okay, Rockefeller, you get them. $25 for fruit? Yeah. What is this? Japan in 1990. Also, it's just like, how many strawberries does anyone actually eat? Whoa. You know what I mean?

This is your zag? Yeah, because, like, I always felt that way about. grapes where my mom would get grapes and I was like, I'll have five. No, no, no, first of all, I will eat grapes. Yeah. Cold grapes in the fridge, you can't stop. Delicious snack. Cherries, too, same thing.

Oh, yeah, stone fruits. But strawberries, I mean, they're going to get eaten if they're delicious. Wait, so your thing, okay, Kai, I'm sorry, you're going to have to be on mic for more of this. So, you would prefer a scenario where you could a la carte a berry. So we're currently, you know, obviously I'm a man with a wife, but with no children. And currently, I am living the Bachelor life where it's like we're going Denver, Minnesota, straight into Edmonton, Vancouver, like, hockey play. That was wild. I was like, we had such a nice time altogether.

What's it like being not only back in L.A., but Phoebe stayed in New York for some time. And you were like, playoff hockey dog. I was like, do I need to send a wellness crew to check on you? But I was like, well, okay, so when you're alone, right, right? Like, who really needs produce? Like, what single man eats produce? You're looking at him. You?

You just sit there and eating strawberries, like a beautiful little boy? When I am alone, well, you said produce. Like, I will whip up a solo dinner. My boy dinner, sorry, Kai. I would be like I will cook some broccoli. Okay. I will not just have a wedge of cheese. But produce, oh, like fruits?

You're right. Would I buy this much fruit if I didn't have children in my house? No. You got me. But are you suggesting that there's a different? Do you ever just want to give your kids like a twix and just be like, Yeah, like we're good. I saved $22 here.

No, because all they want all the time is Twix. It is a never-ending tsunami of can I have candy now. Oh, okay. Always. So I'm so oriented in the other direction. I did bring them back a ton of candy from the UK to a point where they thought maybe something was wrong with me or I'd tell me to feel guilty about. Like they were like, this is very, very out of character.

Can I really eat this? Yeah. But there's a lot. Do they give the thumbs up over the United States candy? Well, I think they like all candy all the time forever. I think also a lot of it is the same, but they have different labels on that. They like the arrow bar that has the little air bubbles in it. That doesn't seem like that's that much of an international innovation, to be honest.

The other ones are just like Twix-esque. Like there's a lion bar, and it's just like a Snickers Twix. Yeah. It's weird that we haven't iterated this stuff, you know? Well, I think we came up with some real solid choices, you know what I mean? Like, it's like how much better can you get from a Twix? That Twix? I think about this every single time I go into a cafe and it's like, here's a $32 bar of cacao.

And I'm like, honestly, if I'm going to do this, I'm doing a Snickers. Okay, so here, okay, this is great. Gaya, clear the board. Clear everything else we have to talk about today. This is what I want to talk about. I do think you can't be perfection. Like you could, and I feel this way about snack food. Like, you could pretend that there's like an alt Dorito, but you're not touching Frito.

No. So let's not do this. same way about Heinz ketchup. Like, come on, guys, relax. Twix are perfect. But we have really been stuck in a mainstream candy bar rut. And so I like, look, I'll, I'll do a bean to bar. You know what I mean? I'll do 70% cacao. I like a dark chocolate. I like that. No. But if you want the other thing, wouldn't it be interesting maybe every so often to have a new flavor combo? So you want like a dark chocolate twix? No, no, no. You keep my high brown and lowbrow separate. Okay. No. I'm not a monster.

It makes to be like something else. You want like a little bit of like a wrinkle to it. Well like like, you know, for example, when you and I were growing up, there were two kinds of potato chips with ridges and without. Yeah. And now we have more like, there's an international flavor sometimes. And you're a huge connoisseur of those. I love chips.

I like, I never thought, Chris, people are down on America, but I never thought I'd see a day when pickle flavored chips are like mainstream. This is exciting. Yeah, my wife loves those. So I'm saying we could, we could iterate. a, you know, in this, in the, in the mainstream candy space a little more. Don't you think? Because Halloween, it's just like, I think it's up to us. I think it's up to the user. No, it's up to Chaya's generation is going to have to take the lead on this. We're done.

No, the new big thing in candy right now is Swedish candy. Okay. Are you saying this? Are you saying this because of Daniel Eck? Like, what is this? Do you have to say that, Kaya? Blink twice. No, it's like really big now. Like, there's like stores in New York and L.A. And what are they? They just are fully devoted. I guess Swedish candies really good. I think it's like gummy. It's heavily gummy based. I didn't even bring gummies.

All I care about is gummies and sour gummits. That's what I like. All right. Well, you might want to go seek this out then. But I feel like we're talking candy bars, which as a father of daughters, every Halloween, they're like, so exciting. And it's just a bag full of the same nine things. If they then divide into nine piles, it's the same as weird kids. Good things.

But it's actually less because we had shit like, like what you might call it bars. Oh, yeah. But nobody really wanted those. I did. We weeded them out. Darwin came through and was just like, let's be real. Who wants to zag it? Or there's like, you're like there's no.

Or Zagnut? Zagnut. Yeah. Zagat dining guy. That has fallen under. Boy, my dad loved that. He carried in his pocket like a bulletproof vest. It says this casual bot

serves fine. Anyway, yeah, was there ever a worse named candy than Mr. Goodbar? No. it's bad. But do you feel, are you candy? You seem more up on these candy streets.

I'm not a big candy person. I don't have like a huge sweet tooth, to be honest. Not anymore. I mean, I brought back a lot of crisps. Yeah. I wish I had done that.

And I've not told my children that I did because they'll eat them and I want to eat them. I'm glad I'm glad. You know what? I missed vegetables. I mean, they have them. I did miss salads. I know that they have some sweet green-esque restaurants

over in England, but when you're there, you're just like, I feel silly, like, not just drinking Guinness eating fries. But now that I'm back, I saw a flicker of recognition in the eyes of my sweet green. Your sweet sweet sweet green. Salad dealer. They were like, he's back. Tears in her eyes.

We weren't making our monthly quotas without you. But that's also because when you're traveling, you're not cooking yourself. You're not cooking for yourself. I don't even know if I could find lettuce in those countries, to be completely honest. Chris, you missed dinner last Saturday. There was some delightful veg that we had at the restaurant in London. Let's get into the world of popular culture. How about that?

Fine. This is the best podcast I've been a part of in weeks. I want to talk to you a little bit about you going to see the fall guy yesterday. Okay. Just a really funny moment where, again, deep, I was just deep, deep in NBA playoffs. By my own choice. This is not a requirement. And I got a text from Andy that was just like, just saw the fall guy.

Have you seen it? I didn't say the Fault guy. The Fault guy. I just saw the fall guy. Have you seen it? Oh, yeah, all right. And I was like, I have been with you almost constantly for the entirety of the Fault guy's theatrical release. Fair.

No response. I didn't write back anymore. You didn't say, ha, ha, that's true. We've been so close. Oh, you know what I did, though? I reacted IRL. I chuckled and looked off into the distance and missed my friend. That was not registered.

But that was, I thought that was a very sweet way to put it. I also assume, like, I know. let's speak to each other's like I'll look you in the eye and say this it's occurred to me that maybe you text with Sean sometimes I hate the thought of it frankly I get a little jealous but I assume that you guys have a robust

conversation not as much as you think because Sean and I like we see each other a fair amount here you know so like it's not a lot of like hey how's it going I haven't seen you a while because I usually see him but in that channel that you have with him I imagine sometimes he's like would you like to see these nine movies in advance of their opening and you go do it

and then and I don't hear from you during those two hours and my texts go unread and then two years later you see one of those movies on a plane and you're like, hmm, not so good. Glad I didn't, glad I didn't waste the time. No, I assumed you have seen it. Save that money for berries. Fresh, fresh berries. I assumed you'd seen it. I had not. So I wanted to hear what you thought of it and I also had a follow-up question that's more general about the state of movies. Well, so my thing about this movie was I wanted to see it because it looked like a lot of fun and I like fun movies and I love Ryan Gosling. You're a classic fun fun guy. I'm a classic fun guy. People don't know this about me, including myself. I don't know this.

But I wanted to see America's sweetheart Ryan Gosling in a big movie. I love Emily Blund. It's like, yeah, let's go see it. And sadly, it was dog shit. But he was great. And it made me kind of... Dog shit, like, I can't get through this. This is terrible. Or dog shit, like, you know, like, I see what they're doing here, but... I just think, I was just really disappointed. Oh, so here's my big picture take on this was, before I saw the movie, and I didn't read a lot of reviews, but the takeaway I seemed to get was, wow, what are we, what's going on? Like, we gave people what we thought they wanted, which is to say a fairly well-reviewed fun time starring America's best boy, who's actually Canadian. And whizbang, let's get it, you know, great marketing, big lead

up to it coming up, the two stars coming off the two biggest movies of last year, and it didn't do that great. So I, what my takeaway was a lot of like hand-wringing, like, oh, no, what do we do now? And then I saw the movie, and it's not a movie. It's a movie in quotes, which is a what we do now. Right. Where it's like actually wink wink, it's a movie about making movies, but also about how much we love movies, but also six movies before the movie starts. And who cares about tone or consistency anyway? We're laughing. Right. And I fucking hate that. And the reason I hate it is because they could do so much better. So like this movie, it's 20 minutes before it starts. There's 20 minutes of voiceover and like, I guess integral backstory about how he and Emily Blunt were

briefly in love and this is going to inform all their actions in Australia later. But the bigger thing to me was like, what if, what if you had someone who wasn't just having a lark and giving kudos to the crew, which crews do deserve kudos? Sure. You can do a little bit more than that. Like, if you had a filmmaker, like who liked movies, not just making them, and it was a 90-minute movie about a guy who was the stunt guy who was in love with the director who had to solve a crime, and you just did it straight. Like, let's just hit the ground running. Let's make a movie with a charming movie star. I think that would have done well. I think that everyone is up in their thoughts and heads and feelings about like, what do people want? We got to take care of this sector and we got to do this. I feel like

the lesson from last year was, guys, chill the fuck out, let people make the movies they want to make, whether it's Oppenheimer or Barbie. There's only two. Then we'll go. Well, those are the only two movies. But I just want to try to find a way to articulate the fact that with the talent assembled here, you could have made a movie that was just contained within itself. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't winking all the time. It was just like, this is a guy who's a stunt man, and there's some stuff happening. And I think it would have done very well. Do you think, and, you know, I think we have different relationships with our phones and different relationships with the pop culture internet. And with vegetables, frankly. And frankly, just California as a breadbasket as a concept.

Do you think that this movie was almost over-marketed? Like, do you feel like in some ways that like all the best bits were Ryan Gosling and Emily Blunt interviews or all of the stuff that kind of like them being at the Oscars and then like two months of like viral clips of them having a great time together on talk shows and then the amount of trailers, the amount of commercials. Like did you, when you were done the movie, you were like there was a whole bunch of this movie that I was surprised by or didn't. Well, I think I will zag on that and say that they were marketing what they made. Sure.

Yeah. Meaning the best parts of the movie are hanging out with Ryan Gosling and Emily Blonde. I think that's why I feel a little bit less of an imperative to go see it is because I feel like I kind of got it. Well, there's no movie there. And I don't mean there probably was. I know other people have talked about that. There may have been a script at some point that had more linear sense. There may have been a version of it that didn't have as much voiceover or work or the tone was a little more consistent.

Because you get the feeling that there was stuff they were just, they were riffing on to fill in the blanks. And maybe I'm being overly precious because I don't see a lot of very bad things, although I have been on a tear recently. And so like in the New York Times Review, Manola Dargis, I think correctly was like David Leach, as a former stuntman, really does care about the action sequences. And they were well-designed, you know, and tactile and whatever.

And like, if you care about that, you're going to find something to like here. And it's not bad-spirited. You know what I mean? Like, it can't be with this talent. tonight and the idea of like the crew can come to get like that's really sweet that's good i don't think this is evil in the world i think my reaction to it is i do you think ryan gosling is one of one and you could have made a movie instead of a movie wink wink in quotes about making movies and so much of what we're doing is that these days because nobody because everybody's fucking freaked

out right in other movie news oh i was going to ask you did you also feel a responsibility to go see this because of all the things you laid out. It is like a quote unquote original. It's based, you know, loosely on the TV show. But that it's an original kind of movie. It's not a sequel. That it's a action romance movie of the kind of kind of that we were kind of raised on with like romancing the stone and stuff. Yeah. And that this is like you feel like you had to go. Did you feel like a kind of responsibility to support the theatrical experience of this kind of film? Genuinely, I felt excitement. I thought that maybe they had slipped one past like something good had come out of it. And you feel like, feel you definitely don't feel the the weight of like studio mandates because there's whole sections of this movie where I think David Leach thinks he's making a classic romance. It's bizarre, but it's not unwelcome because you feel like someone felt strongly about this

being here. No, I didn't feel the imperative to support it. I was just like, maybe this is going to be a good time. And I want to go to a theater that has reclining seats and get some popcorns and soda pops. And like, let's do it now that I'm back in America. Not watching it on a stool. No, but also, you know, on my last vestige of England on the way back, I watched the new Ken Loach movie.

You're only, you're really one of one, man. That was so, that was so good. Other movie news. Okay. We've had some fantastic forecasting that's filling out the edges of this. You're so excited about this. Well, okay, so they, they've cast Galactus. They've cast Galactus.

I'm, can you? Kai, can you just give me that sound clip? Can you make a soundboard for me of Chris saying it? I just feel like that is you bending the knee. Because I want to call him Galacticus? Yes, but also just like you don't want to say any of this so strongly. No, I'm open. I'm open to this being good.

Julia Gardner is playing Silver Surfer. Yeah. A lady silver server. I don't see gender. Okay. There's nothing gendered about surfing, Chris. I don't know if you ever watch 100 foot wave. And then.

Wow. Who's playing Galactus? Ralph Innocon, which is great. This is a... I just saw him in the first Omen. Yeah, this is what I'm saying. So he's Finchie on the British office, and now he sort of carved out this other career

being an ominous weirdo, right? And he's in my wonderful, talented friend, Arcasia's movie, The First Omen. And he... I think this is great. I think every so often you see them just kind of think purely creatively in this, because Galactus, as you and I know,

but I'll just say for people who don't know, maybe Kaya doesn't know. It's okay, just for like the cheap seats. Yeah, yeah. Is a, you know, gigantic, like multiple planet-sized being with a purple helmet who eats planets. Okay. Who travels the universe culling planets and eating them for energy. And the Silver Surfer is Galactus's Harold. Yeah, like, hey, you're all going to get eaten now and like just kind of buttoning things up.

You know what I mean? It's the front of the house touch where it's like Silver Surfer is coming. is seating people, he's making sure everybody's having a good time. Well, you'd think so until you watch Restaurant Wars. You see Michelle has never read a Fantastic Four comic. It doesn't touch any planets, even the judge's planets. Yeah, and so I just feel like this is, this is kind of in. He has a cool voice.

He's got a weird effect. Like, I'm into it. Do you think that his cool voice is the number one selling point because it'll probably be, like, largely CGI? Like, is this mostly a V-O? This is not, like, do you think, is there a version of this where it's like him, like Brolin and the Avengers where it's like...

Well, he'll be there, but I have no idea what they're going to do. And I don't know... The reason I wanted to talk about this is because I am uncharacteristically optimistic about this production, about Fantastic Four.

I think that you have to get real low before you can start over again. And I... The other thing I didn't mention is that on one of the flights, there were so many, I don't remember. I did watch some of the Marvels. Uh-huh.

Which, despite, you know, we... talk shit about how bad it probably was going to be, and then we were like, we can't even do this. It was worse. Okay. I can't believe it exists. And separate apart from performances or choices or whatever,

the first 15 minutes is them trying to be like, ha, ha, it's fun trying to explain 10 TV shows and five movies with characters who have never met. And also Sam Jackson is still on retainer. And they're sweating so hard trying to make this feel light. Yeah, that was probably the last thing they shot. It was like, oh, shit. Oh, we need to explain this movie.

this movie, by dint of all of these things, and the fact that they're like starting a pocket universe with it, doesn't have any of that baggage. So why not try new things? It's established that they're doing it in the 60s, which feels at least fresh or fun. I'd like to think that Matt Shackman, who is directing this, I'd like to think they're giving him a little more carte blanche

to maybe make it look different. It's consistent of what Marvel does, gives people carte blanche. Well, that's the thing. I agree with you. There's no history of this. But when you ask, if, Galaxis is going to be CGI. I'm like, look, he's already purple, so we're already in trouble. I was like, what if they just did a different visual palette? Because the, Captain, the Marvel's

begins, you know, in another deep space, parentheses, Atlanta. And it's just people holding hammers in space again with green faces. And when they started talking, they were talking like weird little insects. And I was like, oh, that's kind of interesting. Oh, and like, we're not even, there are subtitles. Like, these are kind of. of an ominous villain. And then I realized that my airplane headphones weren't plugged all the way in. And so I wasn't getting the audio feed. When in fact I plugged it in and they were like, this was Ronin the accuser's hammer.

I was like, shit. I was so willing to believe that they had taken an artistic swing. You were thinking that they were like, what if we had the click language of some deep, native people? I was like, wow, that's cool. Finally. But the other casting thing that we needed to talk about

is, did you see Malcovich just join the cast? So you see Professor X? I love this from you. Is he? I don't think we're seeding the X-Men. Answer the question. I don't think we're seating the X-Men in Fantastic Four. We're not?

No, the rumors, people are like, this is Doom. I want to balance this because I wonder, I know Malcovich loves to, like, show up in, like, a Mark Wahlberg movie for six minutes and scream on the phone and then put it down and do something weird and cash the check. It would seem that Dr. Doom would be like a slight... He's not. It's not, too.

Okay, so who is it? Well, I mean, I think the rumors that it's Doom, but unless we're really doing multiversal stuff and like he's already Chicago theater Doom who's in Fantastic Four, I don't think a 70 plus year old character actor is like, I can't wait from my next decade to be wearing the middle. Yeah, but don't you think maybe a 70 plus year old character actor

is like, I can't wait to be in a wheelchair for the next 10 years. years when I make $12 million? Yeah, I think so, but I believe, again, I don't know why I'm taking like, I just feel like they understand. I guess they wouldn't have cast Professor X without being like, and then the Fantastic Four. So I think they, I think it's, I'm saying this as someone who is still kind of a fan, wavering clearly. I think they know they need to make one good movie.

And so my feeling is things in Fantastic Four can lead to the next, you know, phase, but I don't think they're going to seed X-Men in Fantastic Four. Right. I just feel like that would be, I mean, if they do, then they've learned nothing. So I don't think that. My honest guess is this is fun for everyone and he's going to play something that's a fan favorite, but probably not going to move the needle in terms of like, aha, we see now. Now we see where we're going.

But maybe I'm totally, listen, I could be totally wrong. I thought they were speaking a click language. So. Isn't, didn't they also cast Houser? Paul, what's his name? Paul Michael. Paul Walter Hauser? I was going to say Paul Walker Hauser. Wasn't he supposed to be the thing? I think there was rumors that he was the thing, but I think that actually he might be

moleman. No, not really. Yeah, the moleman. He's in the Fantastic Four? He's been cast in the Fantastic. Oh, the character of the Moleman, not Hans Mulman from the Simpsons. Chris, I know it's been a while since you had your copy of Fantastic Four number one graded and sealed behind. I was never a Fantastic Four guy. The Moleman is the villain. I always thought that the, the, being rubber was not like a great superpower. He's not rubber. He can stretch. Yeah. But also he's the smartest man in the universe.

That's the rubber is extra. You can reach the tools in his lab. The real power is the brick. Chris, they're a family. You don't see the appeal? You're just sitting alone watching the Canucks? Just think, just dreaming in right field. You could have been dreaming about this. The first issue of Fantastic Four, the villain is the moleman.

He's coming out of the ground being like, I'm coming through New York. So then he'll probably be like the more terrestrial villain, but then there's like a super problem of Galactus and the surf. Yeah, and then Professor X is like, I can read your minds. They're like, not now. Freddie KGB, not now. Freddie KGB? Whatever his name is.

In the multiverse, is that what he is? What's his real name? Teddy. You know what? I took a chance because I feel, Kai, keep it in. Works and all. She's not going to take that out. She thinks she's just like, God, I got to go back

and make sure Andy sounds smart about it. It is on Etsy right now. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus.

Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. your activity with our consumer protection tools. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for, that's when Prime's same-day delivery as you're back.

Getting you exactly what you need, fast and reliably, so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to 5. millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas, terms apply. This episode is brought to you by the Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo.

That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets at the game or grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me, the Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash ActiveCAD. terms apply. All right, let's move on to the television.

I don't have a slick segue. And let's talk about hacks, which is back. It's got four episodes up now. They've been doing two a week, which is an interesting release style for... I was not prepared for the Max Corporation. These episodes are, you know, I would say, inching closer to 40 minutes, as is...

I think as is the natural progression for these sort of dromedy, comic dramas they start out and it's like ah 27 minutes how inventive and then like they they kind of thing yeah um this is a beloved show and this is a really good example of when an excellent premise has been so embraced by the world yep that people just want to spend time with their friends people just want to spend time in Vegas they want to spend time with deborah and eva and all the tertiary characters and whatever tension there was in this show that

made the first season extraordinary and the second season kind of a miracle because it was able to continue along with the first season's energy. That generational class between Deborah and Ava the

what does it mean to work for somebody else and when do you get to live for yourself? All the sort of funny like Deborah's out of step with contemporary times ideas like right now the third season feels, well,

very, very pleasant to watch and enjoyable. And then it's just really fun to watch, you know, Jimmy and really fun to walk. It's like to just be,

be like at a roast with all these comedians and stuff. I wonder whether or not, like, Deborah, will Deborah be able to have even more now that Deborah has it all? Yes.

But like, get this late night show is, uh, it kind of is like different than the original mission statement of this show. Well, I feel like we're coming at it from two sides of the same.

argument. I'm happy the show is back. As you said, it is a, it is an elite vibe, and Gene Smart's performance is still one for the ages and maybe even somehow getting better as she gets more and more comfortable playing this part over a period of time. I found the first few episodes of this season to be a really interesting case study in how we're making TV now. We set at various points during the first two seasons, which we both adored, I think it appeared on our lists, at least some of our lists, the years that those seasons came out, our top 10 lists. To be kind of fascinating because, as you just said, it almost instantly ticked every box that a traditional sitcom needs to tick in order to get us and many other people to buy in. It has a very, very strong sense of place.

It has a very strong sense of character. And the tensions between the characters that fuel the comedy were just so clear. And so brightly and brilliantly drawn from the beginning. And that's what the formula was for decades, right? They did it. They made a great sitcom. Said it in Vegas. You got these characters.

A lot of cooks coming in and out. Bang, bang, we're done. This is a contemporary TV show made by people, Paul Downs, Lucian Yellow, and Jen Stasking. Jen sat. I'm sorry, Jen, who probably is listening. I just, I'm already on a role. And Jen, who are very ambitious and have worked on very contemporary projects,

whether it's Broad City or Parks and Rec. and they want to make contemporary television that has a different set of stakes and a different sets of serialized momentum. And so I mentioned Parks and Rec intentionally because they kind of have been doing something from the Mike Sher Parks and Rec playbook which is you build a sitcom

and then you tear it up at the end of every season. You almost paint yourself into a corner and you're like, well, I'm never going to sit still. Vegas was so great in season one. In season two, they're like, we're taking this on the road. And I remember we talked about it in the first few episodes, We were like, why are they leaving something that worked? And suddenly, Lori Metcalf is on a bus and we're in these different towns.

And then they pulled it off, which was remarkable. And they reached a point where, as we said at the time, because it was not renewed in advance of that finale, we were like... That would be a great ending. It's a great ending. Yeah. And if you look back on Parks and Rec, every season was a great ending to the series, partly because they didn't know. So they were protecting themselves in the audience. The challenge with painting yourself into a corner every year is you have to unpaint at the beginning of the next season.

And so what my, my takeaway from the first two episodes, really, before the roast episode, was I was happy to have everyone back. I was happy to have these, like, establishing set pieces of like, there's Deborah doing Deborah. There's Ava. There's Ava still being Ava. It's a lot of expositional labor to bring everyone back into the same room so you can start the season. Yeah, there's an interesting moment in the third episode, which is the roast of Deborah Vance, when Ava goes to Deborah and says, here's like a little. list of conditions that I have to be working with you again. And it's like, you know, you have to respect my boundaries and you can't make fun of my hands and you can't make fun of my clothes and et cetera, et cetera. And like we have like working hours. I don't write personal material for you.

And Deborah agrees to all of them. And then is one more thing, we have to make time for you to do work for your own personal career. And that's obviously like a very like sweet moment between these two characters who have been at odds over a lot of these things. But it was almost like too easy for me. It was like, this is like the wish fulfillment version of this show where it's like,

Deborah has now like kind of become this like fully realized like kind person and Ava is able to have a work life balance. And like that's great for the quote unquote people, but it's not great for the characters necessarily. And I was kind of like, man like what did I watch this show for?

Do I watch this show for like the one liners? Which is like, and the jokes and which is pretty much what I watched the show for. Or am I watching it for the drama between these two people who are both on opposite ends of a career, one person kind of in the twilight, one person just at the beginning? And I think it's fine to have one without the other. I think at its best it has both. But something was nagging at me at the back of my head.

I wanted to pitch this to you. This is that like shows get very comfortable with their setup. You mentioned like it was really cool to see hacks go on the road. There was part of me that was like, could they have just pulled like a move that kind of curb would pull, which is that Deborah has the show to start the season. And like, Ava's been brought back. And this is a show, this season about making a late night show. I like that. And it's just a pit. It's not like, I'm not like, oh, it would have been better if you'd done this. But I can tell this season is going to be about whether or not Deborah gets this thing that

she's always wanted. And that 40 years ago she was close to getting. And it's a good idea. It is. And it's a good pitch. It's a good structure for a season. And I think what it's at war with, It's not war. But what it's struggling with in the early going is all the undoing. We got Ava's independent and in a relationship. We got to end that. You know, we have to like untangle all these things and put people in the right places. And we have to find a way for Jimmy and Kayla now to be in the room with them because that was an issue for the first few seasons.

We have to undo all of that. We're also fighting in real time. I mean, I said Parks and Rec. Mike Schur is an EP on this show. I love Mike Scher's television. I'd love Mike Sherp, period. The challenge in the later seasons of Parks and Rec was the smushiness, because especially with sitcoms, audiences fall in love with characters.

Creators also fall in love with characters. And they want to protect them and celebrate them and coddle them because everybody loves them. And that leeches some friction. Now, we're talking about sitcom. So it's not the wire. It's not life and death friction. But it does soften things to a degree when everybody gets along and things are easier. And we've hit that point at the early going of the,

this season sooner than I think you might had it played out on a more natural timeline. And you end up with a situation where I want Deborah Vance to succeed. The stakes of someone who, as we see at the beginning of the season, is at a career resurgence, unlike almost anyone has ever had in our real life history, wanting one more thing on top of it and being like, oh, it would be unfair if she didn't get this other incredible dream come true. That's challenging. I'm not saying it's impossible. No, I know.

And this talented team can pull this off. I want to pre-I want to caveat all this by being like, Caitlin Olson's catchphrase for the roast is definitely worth the 36 minutes of your time. Like, there's things in every episode so far that I laughed so hard at that I was like, I'm glad I watched this. It was just more like kind of this show's relationship to being like a top 5, 10 show of any given year that it comes out. And it may turn out to be that way this year.

I was just sort of like noticing that this was a kinder, gentler version of the show. Yeah, and I think it genuinely, I think it's an interesting case study in what comedies even are anymore, you know, because there's a version of it that the creators didn't want to make and the zeitgeist didn't want that would have run for 10 seasons. There's another version of it, like you're saying, that it's maybe a little bit more, I was, you know, a little bit more risky, which again, I don't know if Max wants, because this is still a vested, this is one of the rare vestigial Max originals. This show was commissioned by the original HBO match, the Kevin Riley era, that most of those shows... Like flight attendant. Station 11.

And most of those things are gone now, and this is continued on, partly because of its excellence and also because of its Emmy wins under the Casey Boy's regime. So I don't know if the appetite was there for them to be like, yeah, we're jumping forward two years,

and this has happened now. But I agree with you that that's intriguing to me. All of this is us just saying, like we love the show and we love the assemblage of talent and it's interesting to like not be immediately in step with what they want to do with it. Yeah. I mean, it's also, I think,

um, honestly, weirdly, like, I feel like the, the way that it got released where it's like two and two is a longer time than I want to spend at any given night watching it if I want to stay current. Yep.

Uh, which is, which is more of a user kind of thing. I, I think it worked just great as like a once a week, 30 minute show. Although I'm not, I don't even know if,

if it came out in that fashion before, if I'd be honest. I don't remember anything before we got on a plane a week and a half ago. That's right, man. I'm just your pure arrow bar right now. I wanted to put a quark in Ripley with you. Okay.

Is there any other hack stuff you wanted to discuss? Nope. With Ripley. We got through episode five, I believe. Last time we talked. Yes. And I just wanted to talk through six and eight. We don't have to do it like super detailed

because six and seven are, and this is spoilers for Ripley, if you haven't watched it yet. We don't have to get into the episodes yet because I want to have like the broader conversation first. But six and seven are largely Tom Ripley being pursued by a detective, Inspector Rivini in Rome,

who is sort of trying to piece together the death of Freddie Miles and trying to figure out why this guy who says he's Dickie Greenleaf, where's this other guy, Tom Ripley, all I hear about these twos. Marge is sort of sidecar investigating somewhat from

Metroni and yeah we have like there's those two investigative episodes and then the final episode is set in Venice and has like a

slightly different tone I guess I'll just say this this is by far my favorite show of the year I would just say that if anything is better than this we're talking about like an all-time great show

on a filmmaking level just on a brass tax like shot for shot music sound performance like everything about like all the tools that they use. I just think we're watching Masters at Work. We're watching Robert Ellswick. You're watching a legendary screenwriter and Steve Zalien

who's now become like an incredibly accomplished director. Andrew Scott's central performance has been very debated, I think, possibly because people feel like he's too old or what he lacks that Matt Damon has in the 2002 or is a 99. 99 movie of Talented Mr. Ripley. but I think his performance is astonishing in this and very different. We want to talk to you a little bit about the differences.

You finished it. Where did you land with this thing? Well, I landed back in L.A. Because I did watch the last few ones on the plane. I want to start where you started, which is this is a masterpiece. I think that there are many, many good faith conversations to be had about this show. I think there's valid criticisms to be made about it. But I think no conversation about the show can legitimately begin without saying, holy shit.

We do not get complete artistic and aesthetic statements like this on TV. Almost never. It's a nature of the medium. We rarely get precision and execution like this in movies. To get it across, you know, what is it, eight episodes is breathtaking. There is not a false choice. There is not a wobbly decision. There is not a camera move or setup that isn't exquisite. The up to and including the sort of montage of images at the end of the series, it is a wild experience to be driven in a luxury car like this by someone with this kind of pinpoint control. and it's almost moving and almost intoxicating to be within it.

You know, we've had conversations with people. We've heard some criticisms of it. Like I do think that the absolutely pitch-perfect tone of the show is not for everyone. And I think that if you begin by saying aesthetically, it's just unparalleled. Okay, then let's establish that. And then let's say, is that aesthetic to everyone's personal taste of how they want to spend their time? I think if you hold the 99 movie incredibly close to your heart. I also think that there is, you know, this is a television show about a control freak made by a control freak.

And I think some people might find that off-putting or maybe they find it too in harmony with their own sensibilities. But I think every single thing about this is tuned in harmony with itself. You know, and I think that that's also. rare. Because sometimes we'll sit here, and whether we're talking about a movie or we're talking about a TV show, we're like, well, that guy came in throwing a fastball when it's slow-pitched softball, and that saved the episode, or it really spiced up the scene. Everybody here is marching to the same beat in a way that I think can be blanketing, but you have to allow yourself to be blanketed.

Yeah, like, Malcovic is the closest thing, who I think is like, ooh, a curveball. Like, this guy is in a different show almost, like, where he's like kind of having fun with... He's having fun, but I feel like the way it's pitched and also what that role is in the Ripley verse. He's a glimpse of Ripley's future and Ripley himself starts smiling. He's different at the end. The performance is different at the end. So I'm in awe of it on every technical level, but also on an artistic level because it is such a celebration of this vision that Zalian had from when he read the book of what he felt and what he felt it should look like and feel like.

So I started, my dive into the back half of the season was, it started with six. And that's the introduction of Ravini. And for as much praise as I'm giving Robert Ellswood, I also want to give Marizio Lombardi, who plays Ravini. It's one of my favorite performances in recent memory. And as I was watching it, and that was the episode, you'd ask me, like, after two or three, if I was going to struggle because I get real,

I get real fidgety when things get intense on the screen. That was the hardest one for me to watch was that episode. But while I was watching it, I was also like, I was going to text you, but I didn't have internet on that flight. I know if you remember that was probably when you were texting Sean Moore. but I was thinking of you. If there was a show about Ravini doing an investigation, it would be our favorite show of all time.

Yeah, except we would be pretty frustrated by the fact that he just doesn't get a photograph of a guy. Yeah, so he everyone, nobody's perfect. I do want to talk to you about that one, Achilles Heel. Law and order in early 1960s, Italy is a tough beat. But also like the other, one of the things that I love about it is that all the other cops just want to eat their cornettoes in peace. Yeah.

Like, now I've finished this work for you and hangs up. on him. But just the immaculate nature of that investigation, like, from the way he smokes, from the way he walks, and the way he lifts things and touches things in his little notebook. The show, again, like, the aesthetics of a show often find their mirror in the story. Like, I don't know, having watched the 1999 movie and other adaptations of Ripley, it never occurred to me how much they might be about process, how you get away with things, how you construct things, this entire production is so process-oriented. Like, we've talked about Foley, we've talked about, you know, the conversion to black and white

and the framing. Cats. Of course, that's what Zalien is interested in. And so the stuff at the beginning with the stamps and the phone calls and all of the fraud that he's doing, the low-level fraud, finds its mirror twin in the police investigation, and we get step by step, we get the drainage of the fluids from the body. This shit excites me. You can see that the filmmaker's passion for filmmaking is connected to something.

You see what excited them in the narrative, right? Because it's matching the process that they are doing to make the thing. I rewatched the 99 movie after I'd finish the series. And, you know, it's obviously so full of life, color, music, energy, sexiness. Tons of background performers, like the towns that they're in are all brimming with humanity in life. They're in jazz clubs. They're crowded beaches in the summer. Cape Blanchette is there? Yeah, Cape Blanchette. I'd forgotten. The opera. There's so much energy and throbbing, like, sort of people around that it feels so sexy and romantic and sweaty. And I think that Ripley's only mildly repressed homosexuality or sexual longing.

is sort of the driving it's very much driving the story in the film they have that bathtub scene there's like a lot of like this like Dickie and Tom maybe they're together kind of thing going and then also on top of it

Tom's like kind of gets dumb lucky you know like the whole thing in the beginning where he's playing at a piano recital and he borrows a guy's Princeton jacket to wear and that's why Herbert Greenleaf thinks that he went to Princeton and that he might know his son and that blah blah, blah.

It's like, it's kind of like, oh, I just slipped into this incredible opportunity, you know? And I'm not going to let it go. The Andrew Scott version of this character is a vampire. And he is floating over what looks like a kind of ghostly post-war Europe. You know, like early 60s, you're still like just a decade and a half on from the war. And there's just only like, it seems like there's a dozen people in the continent,

you know? A dozen people left almost. And they all look pale. and they all are taking themselves too seriously. And he has arrived and is just going to swallow them. And he's going to swallow them both in terms of like being able to interpret and reflect their behaviors and their bank accounts. But also he is taking, he's taking something from these people.

And I think that there's something about this version of the story that feels like this was a. inevitable. Like, Ripley was going to find something like this and do exactly this. And the Ravini episode that you're talking about six, I believe that's the one where Tom starts basically like dry rehearsing. Like Ravini is going to come in and sit here and I'm going to sit there. You know, like, there's so many scenes where he's like, I already know what they're going to do. So I'm going to plan it accordingly. Like when he basically in eight where he's wearing all these prosthetics and sitting in low light. Yeah, that's that comes more after the Caravagia

stuff in eight. I think in six, he's still a little bit behind the eight ball. In six, he gets interrupted. Ravini's ahead of him. He's packing. He's leaving for Palermo and he has to put the bag away. That's right. And the blood splatter is still in the tub. That's an excruciating shot. I love your point, though, about what Europe is,

right? Because I think that there's a version of... And we know. I mean... We've just been there. And it, that strawberries are dirt cheap. There's a version of Ripley that I think is intentional where he is the ugliest American, where there's the assumption you can assume and you can take anything, right? And what's interesting, though, is that what he sees in Europe is something that has been brought low, something that has been

desiccated, something that can be taken because no one else is taking it. These incredible pensiones and apartments and his villa in Venice are just, they're just empty. Yeah. And they're dusty. And they come with their own old people who are attending to them. But each one is full of luxury, disused, unimportant luxury that's just been collecting dust. And it's possible that the luxury is unimportant because when you've been living with bombs and war for however many years, your priority shift. Or that something has eaten the heart out of Europe. And maybe it's America. Maybe it's about to be the American century. And Ripley is the avatar of that. But I love that all of that is present here, that this idea of someone who is trying to make himself in New York,

where you're supposed to do it, sees the fact that understands in his bones that it's not going to work for him there, but it could work for him in a statelyer, slower, less refrigerated until later place. I think at the very beginning we were talking about like Andrew Scott taking on this part the same way he's taken on Hamlet.

And we could do worse for an American hamlet than Ripley and letting other people generationally play it. Another mark in this show's favor to me is that Zalian has a fucking opinion about this. Yeah, he's, I mean, like, you know, the Caravaggio stuff comes up, I think, because they're talking about, well, I actually don't really, honestly, I didn't really figure out why Caravaggio specifically is featured so heavily in 8 and that there's this sort of, like, parallel to Ripley's story.

Well, a great artist who's also a criminal. Yeah, but like I also thought maybe the reason, the importance of that, of Caravaggio being in the show at all was because this was a guy who understood light. and he was a person who could take any given scene from whether it was from the Bible or whether just a domestic scene and because of the way he understood light, that would look unlike anything else. And that's kind of what Robert Ellswood and Steve Zalian did

with this material where most people would look at this part of the world and see the colors that Anthony Mingheo is out and see the blondes and tans and jazz. The party. Yeah. And he sees the sea and he sees the sea he sees scum. He sees like blackness.

This is where we bury things. He doesn't see the views. He sees the steps to get there. Yeah, yeah. Again and again and again. You know, I don't know why I'm taking the point of view sometimes that I have to defend the show, but I do feel like... I don't think it's for everyone.

It's not for everyone, but it's what you want is someone to be like, I have an opinion about that. And I'm going to consistently communicate that opinion to you on something. And I thought, I definitely entered into the show being like unsure of Andrew Scott in some ways, not his Titanic abilities as a performer. But yeah, is he a little old? There's that line where they're like, there were two men in their 30s. And I'm like, yeah, just like you and me, Chris.

But his transformation and the subtlety of his transformation, that he is fully playing someone else when he assumes his name again at the end was remarkable. What did you think of, there's a couple. guess there's a couple lingering questions. I thought that the Marge stuff in the finale was interesting, not just the way the tension ratcheted up again when he starts reaching for the ash trays, but the idea that Marge is herself kind of a shallow grasping person the way he is, but she doesn't understand that, and that he has a kind of lived in, not jaded, but certainly now experienced view of that, that, you know, that she's not above using Dickie. Not the same way he did because he killed Dicky,

but like that there's some, some commonality there. Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting portrayal. She's definitely, I thought it was interesting the way that they were like, they presented Dakota Fanning's presentation of the character is like, I kind of like somebody who you could see

the real Dickie Greenleaf wanting to drop at some point. You know what I mean? Like she comes off a little bit less fun, I think. And we hear, when we hear Herbert Green, when when, when, when, when Lonergan comes back at the end, which is awesome. And Bocheme Woodbine's seen at the end is incredible. Yeah. He's just like, you need to tell me, like what you can't tell him. But his view of Marge does put it in a different relief because when we first meet Marge, we're seeing through Ripley's eyes that these are just glamorous expats who have, you know, can do anything they want. And they know what, they know what cocktails to drink and they knew these things.

And as she becomes more, more tight, honestly, and suspicious. she gets, I mean, I don't mean this in terms of her physical beauty, but her personality becomes uglier intentionally. And so you buy what he's saying about her at the end. I guess I'm into the transformation of the character. Yeah, I mean, it's so interesting. It's a relationship that's seemingly devoid of sex, unlike the Jude Law, Quinteth Paltrow pairing.

She's dressed in these sort of severe turtlenecks and black slacks and is kind of storming around Rome in her shoes. and is not a particularly humorous person, not a particularly fun-loving person, seems pretty serious about her own writing, which is also quite bad. That scene of him editing her book is so funny. But also the scene of Ravini hearing about the book.

Yeah. You know, Ravini's response to it is devastating. There's no version of this, there's no glimpse in the show that maybe she's okay or maybe she's good at something. That's demolished. I guess that remains kind of my open question was some of the performance I'm not sold on, but I'm curious.

I'm going to answer your question with a question, which is, you know, I think that there's a very strange thing that happens over the course of the show, which is that partially for the sustained, like, continuation of just the narrative kind of like, I want more road, is the idea of, like, rooting for this character. Oh, yeah. And whether or not, like, you wind up rooting for a guy who is really just killing people for travelers checks. at a certain point in Picasso's and everything else, but also to sustain this kind of a standard of living that he's become accustomed to and to escape whatever

house of lies he's built from collapsing on him. But I thought it was really interesting because like, you know, it's really easy to cheer for Matt Damon for the most part. And like when he kills Dickie in the movie,

he is kind of getting bullied. Like Dickie is being a fucking asshole to him. You know, like he is just like, you're just so annoying. The movie is unequ- at least in my memory of it is unequivocally on Tom's side. Kind of.

I mean, he's not the best guy, but like it is built to have empathy at moments. Yeah, and like that these people like basically used him up and tried to throw him away. And that was like, that kind of drove him over the edge out there on the boat, but that Dickie was being like a real brute to him.

Whereas Dickie in the show is just kind of like, maybe it's time, you know. He's untroubled. You move on. And, like, you know, maybe you shouldn't come to Cortina and stuff. And he gets fucking murdered for him. So, like, Ripley is a pure killer in the show. And I still couldn't help myself but just being like, I hope he, I hope this works out.

I hope he countersigns this check so that he gets more money. But that's when I think also one of the, like, savvy, low-key pro moves of a veteran like Zalian because he knows. And we've talked about this in the context of other filmmakers. He knows the natural order of things. that the viewer's eye, especially in television, bends towards empathy towards a hero. Yeah. Like, we want...

A main character, at least, yeah. And Game of Thrones did this pretty expertly, too. When we find ourselves rooting for the Lannisters because we have empathy for them. Yeah, with Stockholm syndrome. We've spent time with them. There was a real subtle orchestration of that in the show that really worked. I think Six is the interesting one,

because I like Ravini so much, that you don't want him to be bested. You want to see a real contest of wills. I also think it's interesting. interesting when it ceases to be like an existential Tom must, Dickie must die so Tom can live, which is what it is in the middle. It's more just like Dickie must die so Tom can take Dickie's soul. But also a flowering of what is Tom now. And Tom is like a man in full, even though he's a, you know, the fucking freak show at the end. But he's just like with his little mustache and his

villa and his approach to life. And that's why the deployment of Malcovic is so perfect when it arrives, you know, because it arrives at a moment that it mirrors a little bit what you're saying Dickie's behavior on the boat because when he's in this party and it's just it's debauchrous right and it's empty and it's gross and they're the only two people who recognize A, the party for what it is, but B, each other for what they are. And one of my favorite exchanges in the entire eight episodes was when he says, are you and what do you do? I'm an art collector or art dealer, right? And he's like, I guess I'm an art dealer too. Yeah. It's devastating and so cool. And it does the best thing that you can do late in a series that might be limited or

might be part of something bigger. It redefines our understanding of our main character within this piece, this eight episodes, could be done. But it also is like, ah, this is actually a career in this post-war Europe, and there are more places for the story to go. You know, there's no valid comparison on any point to make between hacks and Ripley. But this is a series that ends, and Bravo, this is a triumph, and this should win all of the miniseries,

especially if Shogun moves into ongoing, which it seems like it's going to do. But, man, what if they wanted to do another one? I mean, there are five or six books? There are other books. They have the rights. They could do them if they wanted to. And wouldn't it be cool?

Here's one more Hacks comparison. To our conversation, where you were like, what if Hacks just started, you know, in media res with a different setup? What if Ripley's game, as done by Zalien with Andrew Scott, is in color.

Yeah. Because it's a different moment or it's a different story. Like that kind of, that's what's exciting to me is not like we need to tell the end of the Ripley story to finish it. No, and I don't even need it to be, I mean, like, obviously at this point, like you'd be like, well, Robert Ellswit shooting this thing in a certain way has become a way I now think of this story. But it would be kind of exciting if Robert Ellswood shot it handheld and in color.

Because it's like aesthetically, we are trying to. to do what's best for the material, what speaks to us. Did you have any... So where did you... I think... I haven't read anything about the end of the series or how it was received, but I would imagine that there is some bumping

on the photo, which is the lack of ever... The fact that he... Like, Damon and Jude Law, if you squint, like, maybe... Andrew Scott and Johnny, what's his name? Flynn. Flynn. That's not going to happen.

What's your... I didn't bother me. I mean, it was just... the way, it literally was just a different way, like, time. And I don't think that people were as constantly photographed and is constantly kind of documented and surveilled. And yeah, like, it's, it's, it's, I think for a modern audience, it probably hinges on a couple of things where it's like, why can't you just look at this guy's Instagram?

But, like, it, it was, it was fine for me. I think that the one thing I would say, Tom would have scrubbed his early Instagram. The one thing I would note is it ends on such, like, you know, the whole series is like, almost this like menacing drone. And then the last few minutes are like this kind of like incredibly like it's like a cursive signature. It's like Roma, Emila, like like the way it does the end, the very last few minutes of the series feels like incredibly like it could go into a different direction.

Like it had like a little bit of flare. Well, he because I think that the art, the art dealer thing, I mean, Ripley has become an artist. Yeah. Ripley isn't art. I mean, art is important. They call con artists for a reason. Exactly. That is a major plot point in the other books and in the world that he eventually assumes for himself in Europe. And there's the Caravaggio thing too, right?

Like this idea, this is subtle throughout the thing, but it's important, right? That like Dickie went to Europe to become an artist in a sense that like if you're rich and you have nothing better to do, you can become an artist. But what is the furnace that fuels art? And as it turns out, there might be some element of suffering or, you know, struggle with yourself. Yeah. And Ripley becomes a master. He becomes a master in a field that very few people are going to recognize. But the idea of someone signing the end of this series is, again, it's a, it kind of works.

You know, TV really fights against, despite the way we frame it and talk about it sometimes, it really fights the alt-tourist thing. No, this was something that I feel like I was watching, and I don't want to describe all the authorship to one person when obviously the cinematographer had so much to do with it and there's all these other components. But you do feel like a lot of this was in somebody's head and they were able to get it out on the screen. You have to give Zalien credit.

Because if he's the chef in the kitchen, he's working with the best ingredients. But he's the one who's communicating to them what to do. I mean, I would imagine in interviews, Andrew Scott is talking about being directed and being guided into this performance and then locking into it. This is some of the best cinematography I've ever seen full stop, let alone on television. Elswit's done brilliant work in many, many genres and styles. But there were, can you imagine the conversations they had and the reference photos they shared to get to this point? Did you guys, I would love to talk to Steve Zalien about?

I don't know, like, it just seemed like everything about it was fully formed. Like the camera was always supposed to be there. There was always going to be these two sets of steps. There's going to be nothing gets made without happy accidents or discoveries on the day or something on post. It doesn't feel like that. You don't feel like it. And, you know, we've intentionally so, both because I've been on the other side of it and because we've talked to so many people. Like we have showrunners come in.

And one of the best things about talking to television showruns. runners is that they're like, I can't take the credit for that. That was our incredible DP or our wardrobe person that day or the way they hung the lights or this actor brought something or my staff writer came to set and suggested, like, I will be okay if we ever get the chance to talk to Steve Zalian and he only says I. Do you know what I mean? Like in this case, take a victory lap, dog. Take some flowers in vibrant color because goddamn. Let's wrap it up there. Later in the week, we're going to have, I think, a fun guest on Thursday show. We will also probably chat about the return of Outer Range, big cigar on Apple.

Have you seen Outer Range? Lewis Pullman's on that. It's his least favorite bit, but I want people to know, Kai, all I know is you have 10 hours of Outer Range to watch before. That's fine. I'm still not sleeping great, so that's fine. Thank you to Kai McMullen for producing us today, and we will be back with you on Thursday.

What a great. What a great time.