The Watch - Rookie Showrunner Mistakes and the ‘Big Little Lies’ Directing Controversy, Plus a Midseason Review of ‘Euphoria’ | The Watch

Episode Date: July 15, 2019

Andy Greenwald calls in to share some of the rookie showrunner mistakes he’s made so far (1:37) and to weigh in on Jeremy Renner’s burgeoning music career (10:45). We break down the ‘Big Little Lies’ Season 2 directing drama between Andrea Arnold and the show’s producers (21:17) and share a midseason review of ‘Euphoria’ (40:25). Host: Chris Ryan Guests: Andy Greenwald, Amanda Dobbins, and Alison Herman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Sword of Trust. Sword of Trust stars Mark Marin as a cynical pawn shop owner in possession of a sword that, according to a network of deranged conspiracy theorists, proves the South really won the Civil War. Marin gives his best performance to date as he and his rag-tag cohorts try to take this CD subculture for all it's worth. Sword of Trust is now in theaters and on demand with Mark and director Lynn Shelton appearing at select screenings. Visit sort of trust.com for details.

Hey everyone, thanks for listening to today's episode of The Watch. Fun show today, Greenwald calls in from New Mexico to talk about rookie showrunner mistakes, and we also chatted a little bit about some Hollywood news. We addressed the Jeremy Renner Jeep commercial, so everybody take a deep breath. We also talked about this fascinating news story that Greta Gerwig and Noah Baumbach

will be working with Margot Robbie on a Barbie movie for Warner Brothers, so that's fun. Some other stuff with Andy. Then Amanda joined me. Amanda Dobbins, co-host Biglittle Live and the ringer is Amanda Dobbins. You can always see her on Jam session, several other podcasts, the big picture. We talked about Big Little Lies season two, but specifically about the Andrea Arnold story that came out at the end of last week about her sort of essentially being replaced while season two was being filmed from Indy Wire about that. It was really interesting conversation. Amanda and I talked a little bit about Big Lois and then I was joined by Alison Herman to talk about Euphoria. So fun show today. Check it out. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm editor at the Rigger.com

and calling me from his trailer. Ooh-la-la. It's Andy Greenwald. What do you want for me? What do you want for me? I've gone Hollywood. I'm in the middle. I'm in an embassy suite parking lot in northeast Albuquerque.

And I'm spending the day. from 6 a.m. until probably 8 p.m. in a cemetery, and it is 99 degrees out. And you're also shooting an television show. Exactly. Allow me this moment. By the way, speaking of bleak criticisms of me going Hollywood, Chris, I was, first of all, great to talk to you.

Yeah, I was talking to you too. I was trading emails with the watch superfan, Alexa Fogel, who was a guest on her show and the brilliant casting director behind such shows as The Deuce and the Wire and Atlanta. She's giving me advice about the show. I said, you know, it's hard. It's hard work, but it's good.

She said, really, the only thing that matters is if you have a good show. I feel like there are a lot of ways to take that. Do you think that that was, was that motivation Monday? Was she like, you just have to be the Jedi that we all know you are? Or it was like you come from nothing? There's three versions. are related to Ray's parents. Her parents have changed movie to movie.

Yeah, of course. So there's the one where it's like Monday motivation. You are the Skywalker that we were promised and you can skywalk the show. Two is Junk Planet and you can never do this. And three is maybe she just didn't know that that's the role I'm filling here. And then I shouldn't disabuser of that notion because then the true comment will come behind it. Like, oh boy.

You know? Like you rookie numskull, maybe don't write. eight pages in a funeral. I mean, of a funeral that's been at a cemetery when it's going to be 99 degrees. Good idea, Grimald. Thanks, buddy.

So, like, that's an interesting idea because I know that part of what you've been talking to me about as you've been making the show, and we're talking about Briar Patch, obviously, is that, you do the stuff that just seems like a great idea on the page, you're just like, God, I wish somebody had rewritten me when you actually get to, you have to get to the production.

Wait till we get to five and six. A lot of night work, Pally. Nightwork for your point. And for people who don't know, nightwork isn't like magic hour. It's not like we're going to catch this one at happy hour before we call it quits. It's two to two, right? Or is it six to six?

It's probably going to be, yeah, it's probably going to be like six to six to six. You start work at six p.m. You wrap at six a. Or, you know, the week just gets later and later.

Like this morning we had a 6.30 a. call. You know, and so we're set to wrap like 6.30 p.m. By the end of the week, if we're doing anything at night or like, yeah, at the split, like night, day and night.

We start later and then you go later. So, yeah, let me tell you want some rookie showrunner mistake? Sure. Number one, promising your best friend you can continue to do the podcast every week. Clearly. You've been replaced by Claire Zaffet, so it's okay. That's fine. I support that completely.

And wish you the best of luck. Two, that's going to be 100 degrees. So Andy sent me a picture today of him in the cast of Briar Patch. and I did not know this, but he has taken to dressing like Oliver Stone on the set of Salvador. You know, he just has like a neckerchief and a sun hat and, you know, like just looks like he's in Lost City of Z. And it's necessary because the air here is 85% dust. So you got to keep those lungs clear, my guy. But the main takeaway wasn't just that.

It's this poor, beautiful, wonderful cast are wearing their costumes. So they're dying. I didn't send you the picture yet of like the view from behind me in a video village, which is where we all sit in a tent watching the monitors. And it's just Rosario and Kim passed out. They laid their heads back uncomfortably on director's chairs and just pieced out. Really? Because it is real, real hot.

Is there any like portable air conditioner or like cooling system for outdoors? Yeah, they're like the locations team is responsible for bringing these like giant honey well unit, and they sort of pump marginally cool air into the tent. And then we have things like ice cloths to go around our necks, and then PA's giant Mary Poppins umbrellas over the heads of the actors as they walk around. Wait, let me hit my greatest hits of showrunner rookie mistake. Yeah, keep going. Stuff outside in the sun. Literally anything at night. Yeah. Literally anything at night. Anything at night with children involved. I mean, that's probably a mistake in life. Have you done children?

Please rephrase the question. Have you? Oh my God. Have you worked with children in your, on the show? There are children. Yeah, there are a couple of scenes or like their kids in the background or there's one featured kid who plays a part and at night in, in, we're shooting in an abandoned, we're shooting in an abandoned power plant. So maybe we'll just take Euphoria and double down on it. There's no fun. This is something that. anyone who has ever done anything on a film set would have told me, but I didn't know, where people are sitting in the actual car doing their scene, like maybe they're driving.

But the car is hitched onto a truck, and the cameras are pointed at them, and the truck is driving. Yes. And so we had to shoot all this process trailer stuff the other day, and the choices were sit on a bench, a metal bench backwards, hanging over the road, a bench that has been in the direct 90-degree sunlight for the last few hours, and then just drive in a giant circle around a portion of Albuquerque. So I listen to the visceral radio play. I feel like they nailed it, frankly. So we're learning.

Yeah. We're learning. So I feel like my job in your life now is to keep you tethered to, you know, pop culture reality. But all the news I have for you doesn't seem real. So the first thing, and this has been something that people in the Facebook group and on Twitter have been asking for us to address for a while, is that obviously Jeremy Renner has been, like, teasing a forward. into music, and it was unclear what it was going to be. And my whole thing is this. When you

really, like, hit on a bit, right? And you think you've got, like, you're like, this is really funny that Jeremy Renner, the, the IED expert in Hurt Locker, the guy who gets dunked on by Tom Cruise for two Mission Impossible movies, Hansel and Gretel, which killer

or whatever he was, Hunter's my guy. When he does something fun, like house flips, you're like, oh, it's make a thing out of this. It's really cool that Jeremy Runner does this and when he talks

about his properties. But I don't really have anything to say about this guy and then doing music. And now it turns out this entire thing was like a co-sponsored thing with Jeep

where he's done like four commercials that involve his band calling him Jay and he's like coming out of restaurants and these commercials and people are like,

hey, want to drive the Jeep and they toss him the keys and he drives through the desert and then plays his music in these commercials. And it's essentially like pretty bad Maroon 5 stuff. But he is definitely trying to be a real musician, Jeremy Renner. And I want to like share this with you, but I also feel like almost sad about it.

Yeah, I think. Have you seen the ad? Yeah, I think we've all had some fun on day one. Yeah. But I think there's a problem here, which is the sincerity factor. because he really, really, really is buying into this. I think you're right.

There is just no layer of irony. It doesn't feel charitable because it doesn't feel fun anymore. Is that right? Do you feel that too? I just feel like it's been a long time since Jeremy Redder has been like the Jeremy Renner from the town or even a rival. And so now it's just like, I just feel like we're watching a guy go through some stuff and it's really fine.

like everybody can explore different artistic ways of expressing themselves. But this just isn't like hilarious to me. It's just almost like, hey, just like kind of let him do this. And then we'll get him back soon. So there's that. And then of course, this one, the other piece of cultural news that I have to share with you, which you actually in truth shared with me, but I'm going to pretend like you don't know this,

is that Noah Bomback and Greta Gerwig are going to make a Barbie movie with Margot Robbie for Warner Brothers. I mean, why not, right? I don't know. I can give you a couple reasons. Why not? Well, okay, let's do it from a couple different perspective. I will do it from the Warner Brothers perspective.

How about that? Because, you know, I'm now in a trailer, so I really... You're at an NBC suite, so you're essentially running Warner Brothers. Here's the thing they say about me. The other thing they say about me is that when the push comes to shove, I always side with the big guy. And so every one of these companies has this IP. You and I love to talk about it, right? And they're looking at it.

They're like, well, I guess this is the thing that we'll get made. And this is the thing that we've been paying on the option for and we have to make it. So what are we going to do with it? And it appears, you know, increasingly diminished returns, as you and I would argue, there ought to be, for projects that solely exist to service the brand name, right? I mean, I think that, I don't even know if we podcasted about it, but like that moment earlier this spring when there was a Sonic the Hedgehog trailer released and everyone was just literally just what the fuck?

Yeah. Is this really what we're doing? Also, what's up with his hedgehog crotch? But regardless of that, and the teeth, just horrifying. So if you're going to do something with it, I do think that there is merit in the idea of let's do something surprising or let's do something interesting. Movie stars, you know, appear to be negligible. So Margot Ravi is a popular performer.

she's talented performer. I don't know if she opens a movie. They're banking on however many people are going to see a movie just because it has a recognizable piece of IP in the title. So then the other stuff, why not try to make it better or interesting? If you're only getting X number of people in the door off of the name regardless, why not class it up? I don't know.

So I mean, I recorded a segment with Amanda about Big Little Lies that people will hear in a few minutes. And we talked a lot about the Andrea Arnold controversy that came up on Friday. I want to talk about that too. And, you know, I even said to her, I was like, Andy could probably speak to this better than I could about the way in which directors are sort of brought into projects and how they work on TV projects. But for the most part, you know, I just think that when we see someone's name attached to something, we assume we are going to get like a Greenberg, Lady Bird version of Barbie. And that is likely not what we will get. In fact, I would say it's likely that the chances of this ever actually happening are slim.

You know, like, I mean, you get a lot of this person is working on this. And more often than not, it's something like Phoebe Wallerbridge doing Bond, where it's like, I did some work on it, but I am not directing Bond or whatever. You know, Gretawerg Gerwig has tried to do some mainstream stuff before. She was supposed to essentially write and star in the How I Met Your Mother spin-off, how I met your dad. And she was an Arthur. Like, I mean, she's done bigger stuff before. and I would also say that for as popular

and beloved as Noah Baumbach and Greta Gerwick are, their movies are not necessarily like life-changing financial pursuits, I would say, right? And I think that this probably is. I'm sure that the money that they could make working on Barbie

whether it comes to fruition or not is significantly more than what they make for making the films that they want to be making right now. I totally agree with that and I think you cannot discount it. And I think it also, So the wording of it was very specific, which is that they're going to write it with an eye towards Gerwig directing it. That means they went in with the best pitch that blew everyone away, and then they looked

at each other, like two characters in a movie about to hook up, and they're like, are we doing this? They're like, we're doing this. So they got the green light to do a treatment and maybe write a script eventually. They can walk away at any time, but they're going to get a paycheck for their work on it, and if things are going well and they trust the people they're working with, and maybe she'll direct it. And I do think, you know, she, and neither of us were doing this, but I think in terms of like the group think, it's not fair to assume made it, you know, you and I think a nearly perfect movie in Lady Bird. She leveled up a little bit in terms of ambition and budget with who knows what the feeling is on this. She might want to do big budget movies. She might want it. But this seems like a pretty good way to start, especially if you have, you know, two of the three pieces necessary for getting a release date and not just being a Netflix thing these days, which are major ideas.

and at least, you know, a name. I still don't know if Margot Robbie sells tickets, but it gets people interested in giving you a budget to make the movie. Yeah, I mean, at this point, I mean, honestly, like, Margo Robbie's Harley Quinn and $700 million worth of people saw Suicide Squad. So I think she's pretty famous, you know. Do you want to talk a little bit about Andrea Arnold? I have my thoughts.

I'll share them with Amanda. So if you wanted to just go off, go off, King. Just, well, no, I mean, I just found the whole thing really fascinating. And obviously thinking a lot of, lot about things like this because we are making a show where we had a brilliant visionary director and she's shooting a movie right now in New Orleans and so she couldn't come back to direct the season. So we both eyeed each other longingly across a text message chain. So we have other directors and I'm going to... Is it Oliver Stone? It is Oliver Stone. Did Oliver Text you too?

Rosario has Oliver Stone. Oliver Stone only uses a signal. Oliver Stone and Sam S-M-S-Mail. It is an ongoing thing, which is, you know, we hired people because we love them personally, we love them artistically, we love them aesthetically. But we also have to be mindful of folding them into the larger hole because this has to look like the same TV show week to week. Yes. It was the same thing in a way with the writer's room where I had these brilliant people writing scripts and working with me and defining the story. And this show is them. There is no show without them, and they are equal partners in it.

But ultimately, the show also has to sound like it came from... I'm definitely sympathetic. Strikes me so weird here is that it does sound like everyone was like for movies. I love the way she directs. They were like, we want you to be you or also why would she sign up to do the second season of something with an established point of view?

And then she went in and did the things she wanted to do. And then there's that moment that you and I have talked about Hollywood, which is where the people who are actually controlling the money are like, oh, we don't actually want to take chances here. This is an incredibly, unfathomably expensive project. But there could be all sorts of reasons for that. I'm not, yeah, I mean, I talked about this with Amanda, so I don't want to step up my own takes or Amanda's takes.

It was, but I think that, like, I was told one thing and it was another thing as a tale as old as Hollywood itself, which is not necessarily make it any better than anything else, but I think what happens is as we bring, as you see more and more really interesting filmmakers get involved in episodic television, it's going to be a culture clash between the traditional way that people used to make TV, which is like you're saying,

not only we need the show to look the same every week, but just listen to what Andy said in the beginning of this podcast about rookie showrunner mistakes. Think about how hard that is to apply your cinematic vision to, hey, we're going to be in a cemetery for 12 hours, in 99-degree weather. Maybe we need to take something that happens in the cemetery and move it to an office, you know, or cut it.

Right. Or now, and going back to the cemetery thing, like, I have to be much more involved than I did on the pilot, not because we have directors who aren't brilliant and capable. They are. It's because they will do their cut, and then they will go onto their next job as they should. And I'll be in the edit room with our editors saying, we needed this piece to tell the story that pays off in four episodes.

Right. It's a different situation. I'll say that though that my... This is why you're going to have in the second episode, Rosario Dawson looks at the camera and says, Am I a good man? There might be an Easter eggs for the old column heads. just that my favorite piece of information from that exposes was David E. Kelly's show running hours.

It says that David E. Kelly. David Boston Public E. Kelly. David, ticket fences E. Kelly. And I want to get the numbers right. You may have to fact check it for me. But I believe it said that he visited set no more than once a week for an hour at a time. God. That's my only comment. He's married to Michelle Pfeiffer too, right? Yeah. I would also find that more worthy of my attention than my multimillion-dollar successful HBO show. but as someone who, you know, has vague passing memories of my family in California and my friendship, such as with you, I think that's something to aspire to, not criticize. Absolutely. Okay, Andy, thank you so much for calling in from a desert landscape.

I step outside and see if there's, hold on, let me step outside here and see if there's anybody else because it's lunch. So I think nobody's around. I'm just thinking if anybody's hanging around. I'm looking outside. Jesus, the sparking lot is hot. Definitely, I really think we need to have like a hybrid watch NFL show where we just roast Jay Ferguson about the Cowboys

of coming season? Oh my God, he's ready. I mean, this is the thing. The one good thing about the cemetery scene is that this is the scene where all of our regular cast members, everybody's here today, plus some other fun people, but they're either in their trailers or at lunch, or maybe they've checked into the embassy suite.

They're taking the afternoon off. Harder to say. But next time I call in, I will have a special guest ready to nap with me. And I hold out hope that the watch can go mobile this summer. Yes. No, I'm holding out of Andy, thanks so much for calling in, man. Thanks for holding it down, Chris and Kaya.

And Branskiy. You guys too. Bye-bye. I'm now joined by... She's a big name online. She's the biggest organizer of the hashtag release the Andrea Arnold Cut. I don't know if I am, but we'll talk about it. Amanda Dobbins is here, the co-host of Big Little Live,

my buddy, from the Ringer, and from Life. And I wanted to talk to you about Big Little Lies this season. because while you've also been, we've mostly been talking about the show itself, there's been some off-court issues. Yes. That got brought up this week when Indie Wire published a piece by Chris O'Fault about how this show is essentially,

apparently, reportedly, taken away from Andrea Arnold at a certain point in 2018. It's an interesting piece. It's obviously sourced by people who are probably favorable to Andrea Arnold. Yes, it seems to be coming from that side of the story. Yeah, if you have to divide the line, a line across the country

and you said Andrea Arnold folks on that side it's probably coming from over there and it basically outlines the fact that they brought this cast back the cast is very expensive David E. Kelly comes back everybody's involved Jean-Marc Valet is involved as an EP and then at a certain point in the shooting

while Andrea Arnold was under the impression that this was going to be her creative vision that she was executing Jean-Marc Valet came back in in some capacity as a post-production person and that there were even reshoots later, I believe even into 2019, according to this piece, that either he was like on set for or involved with as an EP

and that she was essentially just kind of playing out the string and didn't want to make a big deal about it while it was still shooting. But obviously now it is getting to be a big deal. Right. And the takeaway is basically that they took the show away from her. Yeah. What was your initial reaction when you read the piece? Huh, that explains a lot.

Yeah. And I think we've been talking a little bit about it on Big Little Live. And you talked about it a bit with us this week. Thanks for coming on the show. My pleasure. As our eagle expert. It was awesome. Yeah.

That the pacing on this season has been strange. And there are a lot of high moments and high energy moments in the episode. Like in an episode, everything to do with Laura Dern. You know, there was like a 10-minute disco set piece in one of the episodes. And then there are a lot of really low moments. And, you know, obviously this is a show that deals with serious issues. And it did in season one. It dealt with sexual assault and abuse and marital abuse and all sorts of tough issues.

But that just tonally, it was seesawing a little this season. And that maybe they didn't have as much material as they thought in season two because it took a very good collection of memes. Yes. And we've been like, does this mystery matter? Does the mystery not matter? Is this show about custody? Is this show about, you know, they're a lot of, they're hitting a lot of different buttons. but not always seemingly with a unified vision.

Yeah. And so it makes a lot of sense that there were a lot of hands in this. And I think also there was a pretty significant outcry, you know, at least on big little eyes internet, TV internet about this piece. And a lot of people's response was like, yes, that was very obvious based on what I was watching on the screen. And the fact that there are five editors credited. Exactly. But that the Andrea Arnold influence, as we know it, has pretty much disappeared from the things that we're watching on our television. And that it's kind of gone back to the David E. Kelly, Jean-Marc Ville, approach to the show, albeit with some hiccups, because as we seem to have learned from this piece, they're slicing it up a bit.

Yeah. And so for people who don't know, Andrea Arnold is a filmmaker who made a very great movie called Fish Tank. starring Michael Fastbender. Tremendous and tremendously upsetting movies. Yes. And then also directed American Honey and was brought in and I think that the idea

was at least on the surface is infused Big Little Eyes Season 2 with a different energy from the one that John Mark Valle brought. Now, in the interim, Valet directed sharp objects and I think has kind of set up

a cottage industry for himself of directing high-end or at least pretentious mysteries. right? Like try to explore psychological depths while also telling a whodunit. And in all likelihood, apparently, if they had their way, they probably would have just had Valet do season two if they had their druthers, right? Because that's ultimately they were probably like, he gets the look, he gets what we, he's kind of set up the visual language of the show. Right. And yet he was busy shooting sharp, sharp objects and they didn't want to wait. And if you're dealing with

Nicole Kidman, Reese Witherspoon, and Laura Dern's schedules, you get the window you get, you have have to go. Yes. And it's also just kind of, and this is part of the ultimate conflict here, which is just, this is season two of a TV show that already exists and how much reinvention do you want versus how much do you want Rees-Ruther Spoon, Nicole Kidman, Shailene Woodley, Zoe Kravitz, Laura Dern, plus Merrill Street, plus David E. Kelly's script, finding out what happens. Like how much is this a second season of a TV show, which we have very different expectations for versus definitely a film, but also even like serialized TV. or Autor Television.

And it seems like they maybe wanted to have both, and then that didn't really work because those are competing ideas and competing ways of making something. This is sort of the little big little lie of anthology television is people still want consistency and continuity. They don't want to relearn how to watch something every time they turn it on.

Yeah, but let's be real, this isn't anthology television. No, I know, but it certainly isn't working for something like that. And I think the way that it's been made and the way that it's been positioned and just kind of how we watch TV now and how we expect things is that we are associating it with like, you know, miniseries director-driven TV.

But this is a David E. Kelly show and TV is a writer's medium or it has been and it has... Probably especially as when it's a David E. Kelly show. Exactly. And then you've also got six brand name actresses who are certainly a priority. So I don't think that the director's vision

was ever going to be able to be the solo vision on this. Yeah. And I think that... So it's worth noting for typically what the process is for at least the way they're doing things now. And I'm sure I might get Andy on this episode. So if you're listening to this, you will have already talked about it. But, you know, they basically bring in a director for a pilot episode or a series of episodes within the first season. And that director's responsibility is to work with the showrunner, if they are not also the showrunner, to create the visual language of the show that then will be passed down to other.

their directors as they go forward in that season and seasons to come. So someone's working, you know, right now on Andy's show to do that. There are people who, you know, there's going to be someone who's working on, you know, the Watchman Succession. Adam McKay works on the visual language of Succession, directs an episode, and then other people direct the following ones. I think that we as sort of culture watchers see a name and we're like, that means that this show is going to be an Andrea Arnold movie.

And if I had to guess, I think I said this to you over the weekend, there's a moment in Bad Mother when Shailene Woodley goes to, when Jane goes to Corey's house. Right. And it's right outside. And it's this really harsh overhead porch light and a handheld shot of her like super close up. And it's really raw. And it feels very alive. And I think that's Andrea Arnold. I think that's an example of her being like, let's just use available light.

Let's just play with the scene. Let's just have these two characters do the scene and not think about where the blocking is or what the camera's doing. And I'm going to follow them and I'm going to capture it. Yes, that seems right. And it also, you pointed out that multiple editors are credited on each episode, like far more editors than are normally on a TV show because it does seem, the inference that you would make from that and from the Indy Wire article is that Andrea Arnold shot a lot of things in her visual style. and then some of those were decided to not, they cut around them, right?

And so I do think that part of the season and the kind of tonal imbalance that I was talking about is those moments and then perhaps some other more David E. Kellyish moments have been sliced in and they're trying to put together some competing visions. Yeah. You said something where, you know, we see a name attached to a show and we're like, oh, it'll be. probably, you know, this show will be the Andrea Arnold show. And I do want to say, I don't think we should gloss over it in the Indy Wire article that at least according to that side of the story, it just seemed like she had that impression as well. Sure. And that then the process didn't go as smoothly.

And things maybe weren't communicated to her in the way that she wanted them to be written. And that's a shame. I'm sure Jeremy Saltey has the same report about working on True Detective because he was supposed to direct more episodes than he did initially. there was quote unquote scheduling issues. I very much love True Detective season three, but the first two that he directed are quite like atmospheric and evocative and very salient. And then they apparently were like, we need to like finish the show.

We need to get going. And you can't keep filming puddles. Yes. Yeah. So it's very, it's common. I mean, Hollywood is littered with stories of studio, you know, these types of processes, a lot of people being in the mix. But it is a shame.

You know, or it seems like if you think. you're going to get to do it one way and your things are taken away. You know, I feel for everybody involved in this. Yes. And it's really interesting to think about these directors that we consider whether you want to say art house or independent or coming from like basically a probably more progressive or braver kind of cinema than like the blockbuster mainstream, either TV or movies. And this has happened a few times with Marvel.

This has happened a few times with DC. This has happened a few times with these big blockbusters. And then it's happened, especially it's happened with Star Wars. And now it's kind of, it's happened a few times with TV where it's like, somebody goes and they're going to get to direct a bunch and then it turns out that they actually need it's a completely different mechanism. Like you have to move much faster,

you have to get a lot of coverage. You can see a lot of scenes and big little lies. I don't know if they are reshoots or if they were always in the script. A lot of like character randomly driving to another character's house to explain something which feels a lot like this episode doesn't make sense unless Maddie drives

to Renata's to talk to her about something, which I guess you could say they aren't texting and stuff like that, which is fine because they don't want their texts to get found in discovery. And they did do that a bit in season one as well. Yeah, and they would be driving and the music would be playing. There's a lot of like showing up at Mary Louise's house.

Yes. Or Mary Louise showing up at people's house where it would be like, would you guys even be talking to her right now? It seems like it would be like legally wise to just stay out of her zone right now. Yes. Yeah. I agree.

The seams, the expositional seams are showing a bit. I will also say it's been interesting. to watch people talk about this. Like, the thing to keep in mind, even with all of this sort of filmmaker drama around it, is that this show has always been a soap opera. This show is always written by David E. Kelly, like, based on a novel by Leanne Moriarty, who is a wonderful author and who writes domestic soap operas. And it has been interesting to watch people respond to this report and be like,

okay, well, that's why I don't like this show as much because it's gotten really. soapy and this show has always been unbelievably soapy and has had a lot of dramatic leaps of face. I wish it was more soapy. I do too. And so, you know, in a lot of ways, I think this edit seems to be going back to the David E. Kelly kind of over the top stuff. Yeah, so this is seven episodes. Like, it could easily be 10 for me. Yes. If this had been gone on all summer, I'm sure it's impossible to get that much time of these people. Reese has an Apple show. She has a Hulu show. She has countless other things. All these actresses and actors are incredibly busy.

But I would be fine with this being a 10-episode thing that got more into the silly stuff that happens in Monterey. I mean, too. Like, I would have liked to see the full scene at the Estillan Institute when Ed and Madeline are just going at it. I would like to know more of what's happening with Renata and Gordon and their terrible marriage. I, you know, I would like to see more of like the dishes

mystery stuff. Quinlan just kind of being not in the show for several episodes, I thought that was like a choice about the importance of theme, but maybe that was just kind of what they got.

Yeah. So I would love for that to be more developed, but that's what I would want more of, not more atmosphere. Yeah. And so I think... Not more shots of waves crashing. Exactly.

And so I don't know. I don't know what the Arnold is. It's interesting. It's like 45... I would love to see... We got to write out of... like an algorithm that can do this. But like I would love to see it's 44 minutes per show about how much time is spent on Bonnie running or waves crashing. Which by the way, random driving.

Can I just say the first season, Jane just ran the whole damn time. Their character development for one character who had gone through an immense trauma was just our freaking running on a beach. It's the exact same thing. So I, you know, I don't actually blame any of the season two reported shenanigans. Yeah, I thought you guys like this. You know, and I think people have a real short memory when it comes to watching people running. Yeah. Release the running cut.

Yeah, exactly. But I just, so I want to say that is that I seem to want like a different thing from the show than a lot of people, which is also to say, I do think it's been a little disjointed, but like, I'm having a nice time watching this show. It's just because, like, I don't think that we're capable of being like, it's pretty good. It's either like, you fucked up. You ruined big little eyes. It's like, they didn't ruin anything. It's Rees Suther Spoon is having a good time. Like, she's in the wedding dress.

Well, I'll be honest. I mean, that scene was great. I wanted more of that. I don't think that they have done justice to my queen. Reese. I mean, release the full Esselin episode. That was so weird. That was like 10 seconds.

Come on. That's hilarious. Give her more to do because I don't care about Ed. I think that they've done a disservice to the Bonnie character. We've talked a lot about this on the show, which is just like, you can't have the only black female character suddenly have, like, mystical vibes. Like, not a great look.

I think that they could give. Laura Dern a little more room to explore the edges, though I love it when she's screaming. You don't think she's living on the edge? Where the edge is, actually. It's blue velvet. Yeah. But I just, I like, this is the type of TV that I like to watch. And I think there are actually, I just wish there was more of it, honestly.

I agree. There are a lot of people who are like, oh, so it's like six really famous actresses just having rich people problems on my screen every week in a ridiculous way. Great. Yeah. You know, it's funny. I was thinking, I was randomly. my wife is really busy yesterday

so I was just kind of like flipping around and I randomly started watching like Friday Night Lights episodes on Hulu yesterday just like in the background and I was like TV used to be great yeah TV just had like five stories and you could just have it on and you'd be like oh yeah and you just and you wanted to know what happened

and I KV1 you know it's great plot and so this I mean my number one can play with this season is like I would like to know what happened and maybe we could have some more things happening and my excitement for Sunday night is like I would like to know what happens. Yeah.

And I think I said on our show this week, like, if I don't find out what happens, I'm going to be really mad. I can't wait. I know. And it's going to be live. And please tune in Sunday night after the East Coast airing for Big Little Live and me yelling. Yes. But it's not, that's why I'll be mad, not because it didn't achieve some perfect balance of, I don't know, interiority and like perfect lighting. I don't know, fam.

I just, I like TV. Sometimes TV just TV. I like TV too. It's a good way to end the pod. That's where I am. Okay. Thank you so much Amanda for coming by. Big Little Live comes on after the season finale of Big Little, is seeing a serious finale too? For now, but they said this last time. I bet you in two or three years they come back. Two years. But we need a new story. Yeah, absolutely. They got to end this story right now. I want to be very clear if there are any editors still employed. Yeah. You got like five days left. All five of you guys. Get back to work. There we go. Okay. Thanks so much for coming by, Amanda. Today's episode of the watch is brought to you by Discount Tire. When was the last time you thought about your tires?

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when you sign up at Luminary.com link slash watch. After that, it's only $7.99 a month. That's Luminary.com link slash watch for two months of free access. Luminary.com slash watch cancel any time. Terms apply. Now I'm joined making her grand return from the East Coast, where she has been touring the world's great humidity attractions of Washington, D.C., Philadelphia. Where else are you in Washington?

Yeah, I was just in D.C. in New York, but just enough humidity to last me a lifetime. And you traveled through Philly on train by train. Yes, I did specifically text Chris to let him know that I was passing through Philly as Chris let me know that Claire Safitz was in the studio. And, you know. It did seem like I was targeting you a little bit by doing that. I just, I need to be transparent about my feelings for the listeners. I'm working through this. I think we can get to forgiveness eventually.

Yes. But I'm a little sore that you did talk to half sour. Half sour without you. That was a really fun episode on Thursday. I wouldn't have been able to do it if it wasn't for Allison because Allison brought gourmet makes into my life. So thank you for that. I think that you were the reason why I looked up in the first place because you

originally talked about it. Yes, I think I converted you to the Bon Appetit extended universe. Yes, that's right. Gourmet Makes is yours and many highlights out of that extended universe. But again, I'm very happy that I brought you into the fold. It was a great interview. I'm so looking forward to the Pop Rocks episode. Thank you.

Yeah, I know. It was really funny to listen to Claire because she was, like, very nervous about, like, spoiling future Gourmet Makes episodes, like, as if Mysterio was going to, like, show up in one of them. But it was like, it was very fun. Let's talk about Euphoria. Yeah, let's. Weirdly. I wouldn't have necessarily called this a couple weeks ago

not because I wasn't interested in the subject matter but more because I wasn't so locked in on the execution of euphoria. This is regular viewing for me. Like every Sunday, I'm happy to turn euphoria on despite the fact that it's obviously not like the most uplifting stuff. I wanted to talk to you about how you feel like this show is progressing. It just got announced that it will be coming back for a second season. I think there's only like two episodes left, right?

Or three? I think it's an eight episode season. So this was the fifth. Yeah. So we got three episodes. left. This last one was directed, O3 Bonnie and Clyde. They've all been named after rap song so far. Major Look was another one. This last one was directed by Jennifer Morrison.

I thought she did a really good job with it. There are plot lines that I care more or less about, but for the most part, it's like a pretty well-executed high school soap with like obviously incredibly heavy real-world material. And then I wanted also to talk to you about the execution of it. Well, weirdly the fact that it is so uneven, I do think makes it really interesting week-to-week viewing, where it's like I want to keep checking in to see how the weird balance between all the different elements of the show works out. So just for full disclosure, this was the first episode past the initial screeners that critics saw. So I saw the first four. Four was quite good, too, I thought.

Yeah. I definitely thought the screeners got better as they went on. But my initial review was like pretty mixed because folding the first four episodes is, with Sam Levinson's debut feature Assassination Nation, which came out last year, I think there are some shared tendencies that I am a little suspicious of. To be totally honest, I didn't love Assassination Nation,

and I saw some of those impulses at work in Euphoria, which I think what Levinson does is that he both wants to sensationalize and maybe leer a little bit at the inner lives of teenage girls, but he also knows enough to know that he should be, like, sensitive to their interests. So you get, you know, Zendaya saying in voiceover, don't shame girls for sending dickpicks, whereas the entire show is this very

purient, like, oh, my God, children are just having sex all the time. Yes. But so is that, like, I guess that's really an interesting question about lots of cultural artifacts right now or cultural production right now is how much are we inferring that tisk-tiskness? Like, is there's not really, The adults in the show, with the exception of Eric Dane's character, who's like off to the side, are like, I think struggling with their kids' behavior, but it doesn't necessarily come as a surprise to them, right? Yeah, I think the darkness of the show is where I infer the tis-tisness. It almost feels engineered to elicit the panicky response that Rob Harvilla dramatized so humorously in his piece about the show. And I think the contrast to something like Skins is Skins kind of shows the kids having fun a little more. And part of that in euphoria, I think, is to its benefit in the way that it shows that Zendaya isn't just using drugs recreationally.

Her character Rue is an addict who goes to meetings. And it treats that part of her psychology really well. And I will say part of the reason why I think I'm liking the show more as it goes on and I really liked Sunday's episode is that the fact that this is a TV show, I think, encourages the best side or the more interesting side of Levinson's approach, which is just it's a character-based. plot-based media. Yeah, and I will say that Rue, I mean, we talked about this the first time we talked

about this show, but the Rue and Jules relationship, I think, is a really special thing on TV right now. Like, I think just, like, the chemistry between the performers

and where it's going with this, because typically, the thing about what Zendaya's doing is that her affect is perfectly matched with her character's interior life. So you can kind of see

that this is a person, who has, like, sanded down all her nerve endings, and it's really hard for her to feel anything. And that's, I think, in some ways, across the board with the kids in the show, is that you're not really sure what's in there anymore because of how maybe they've been hollowed out by what they see on their screens

or, like, what the world is telling them. But there's this really interesting dynamic of play that especially gets played up towards the end of this fifth episode about the trade-off of addiction and how she is basically saying, like, I will stay clean if I have this person. That's the trade.

Like, I will do it because Jules is essentially replacing what drugs gave me. And then that tightrope and how Jules feels about being replaced, like being the replacement there. And that tightrope that Rue was going to walk. I thought it was like a really perceptive, accurate and sensitive portrayal of like addiction in a way that usually don't see on TV. Yeah. And I do think one of the things I appreciated about this past. episode is the show starting to do a really good job of both keeping you in Rue's point of view and making her just an incredibly compelling charismatic lead, which is due in large part to Zendaya's

performance. But also in this episode, you can really see what Rue is doing that is unhealthy and complicated and conveying, you know, that final shot of Jules realizing that she just has an incredibly unfair weight being put on her as like a caretaker to her friend, which is just not something anybody should be wholly responsible for, let alone a teenage girl with her own set of issues and problems. And I really like that it shows you like what Rue is doing wrong while also just rooting you in her perspective. And I want to say, like, one of the things I like about the show is the way they're able to do that across the cast. Like, even in the screeners, which I had like a slightly more mixed reaction to than this past episode, I've always loved this cold open approach they have where it's like every episode. Long monologue from Rue.

About a different character and just telling you how, you know, this past episode it was about Maddie, who's this former child pageant who's kind of, I don't think she's explicitly a cheerleader, although you do see her dancing, but she's the kind of like popular girl who's the girlfriend of the jock and could definitely very easily be marginalized. And Rue explains her thought process, explains her background. But at the same time, these kids are being stupid. They're acting in very dumb ways that are very realistic for a time. teenager, but you're also led to get them a little more. And I think the farther the show goes,

the more it leans into the treating these people as humans with, you know, serious problems and inflicting influences, and the less it gives into the more sensationalistic, you know, being provocative for provocativeness's sake that I balked at in the earlier episodes. Yeah, I don't find the show very provocative, honestly. Like, I think it's, it wants to be, but like, I think Kat's plot line, for instance, should be provocative. But when she hooks up with the guy at the mall, you know, and it finally is consummated, I think, you know, towards the last 15 minutes of the episode, I'm kind of like, like, given what else we've seen over the course of this episode, this is not like

hammering home, whatever I think that they want. Maybe they're not trying to hammer home anything at all. Maybe it's just like, this is what she wants to be doing. And she is like herself now and not just identifying herself through being friends with Maddie or whatever. With that plot line, I thought the camming thing was way too over the top and is weirdly almost unnecessary now that it gets into just her having sex with random guys. And I do think it hits on like a very real tendency that like less conventionally attractive

teen girls have, which is like we're taught that sex is validation. And she's in that phase where she realizes like, oh, I guys are attracted to me. And I feel like I should pursue and indulge that because like that's what makes me feel desired and seen. And that's just like a totally like I have seen that happen to friends. I identify with that thought process she's going to. And it's like now that she's doing that with actual people in her life, I don't really think the

totally excessive camming plot line, which feels like a, I don't even know, like an episode of undressed or something. That one feels like a little bit like a whiteboard dump. Like let's put a character at the top and let's like list 15 things that she could be into. Like one direction fanfic, but Tumblr, but this, but camming. And it's like, on one hand, they're trying to plot, like, see, this is the trajectory that, like, if somebody gets started in this subculture, they could just keep going deeper and deeper into this. But on the other hand, I felt like it was really more of, like, a list of, like, bullet points about the dangers of being online too much that got shoved into one character.

And it's not really needed anymore now that I feel like the character is expressing that same conflict in a much more grounded way. Also, the One Direction thing I thought was funny in that it's one of those examples of the show. I think the show is almost least effective as a Gen Z explainer just because One Direction fanficked on Tumblr was my generation of teens. That was like, you know, a half decade plus ago. It's kind of like has Sam Levinson been working on this for a while and like has taken some stuff from maybe another generation and put it in this. Yes. And speaking of like, I generally really liked the Maddie plot line that we got in last night's episode. that person would not idolize Sharon Stone's character

in Martin Scorsese's three-hour film Casino. That was a good question. I was wondering if Casino had like a Netflix run and that that's why maybe it got discovered. Like I didn't know, but like that is certainly not like, I don't know how you come across that character. That is not a movie that gets like battered around alive. I think it's on Netflix recently.

I just don't think like that person would be watching Netflix. This is not someone who has been shown to have like any other. interest in like classic cinema. She could just list a character from like love and hip hop or real housewives. And it would occupy the same like, I think, space in pop culture. Sure. But it would just make more sense. Or like in an earlier episode, Rue's little sister who's played by Storm Reed mentions

that she's watching my so-called life. Yeah. And it's like, I don't really think today's teens, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. You can tell me anything now that like, you know, friends had that kind of run that it did. Let's talk a little bit about the execution because I think that. that I've been kind of like

workshopping this a little bit and I was thinking about writing something about it but there's one thing I wanted to talk to you about which is basically how packed to the gills this is with music which I think gives it a buoyancy that it may not always have because it's so morbid and it's so dark and even it's the lighting the staging like everything kind of looks borderline Riverdale you know and really atmospherics like when

they walk Tyler and his dad through the cafeteria or whatever that's supposed to be it's like Rue and Jules are just sitting at a table in basically an unoccupied basketball gym like it doesn't make any sense

as to why there's only two tables in this giant space other than it looks cool. Yeah. And so they've already got like a kind of heightened reality a very stylized reality going. And then on top of that

I don't know what changed about music supervision or like the what it costs to place things and shows. It was like a really big deal 20 years ago if you could get a certain song, like if there was a song in a Scorsese movie, it was like, oh my God,

they got a Rolling Stone song. And now it's just like every second of available footage is crammed with some song. And I like the music and euphoria. Like as music, it's just that I wonder how euphoria would play as just like straight footage. Like I'm curious whether or not it would be unwatchable sometimes.

Yeah, well, first of all, I think this is that Drake EP credit doing its work. Yeah. I think they really needed to, I'm sure, that was paid for handsomely, and they need to get the most bang for their buck out of having him as a collaborator. Yes. But yeah, I agree. It definitely fits with the whole, like, almost music video-ish. Like, there's a whole interlude and assassination nation that's just, like, a cheerleader

played by Bella Thorne, like, twerking in slow motion to a rap song. and it plays like zero function in the plot and is literally just like this looks cool. I do think as the series goes on, it is a little more of a counterbalance and a little less just like doing wheelies. But yeah, like I notice all the time just the way they make this really banal suburb.

Like there's absolutely way they could have shot and lit this that would just be like fluorescent lighting everywhere. Everything's kind of bleached of color in a way that kind of like matches the way Rue experiences the world. But it's way more like spring breakers. Exactly, or Riverdale or whatever. Like that scene where her Jules and Matt Apataz's character, Lexi, are just like getting on their bikes outside the roller rink. And the roller rink for whatever, for whatever reason, has these like multitonal neon lights on just like the patio.

And I was just like, okay, it is honestly like a huge part of the appeal of the show is it's just cool to look at. Yeah, it's cool to look at. It's cool. Listen to there's some really good performances. I think we're being obviously set up for like Rue Rew relapse because Jules. can't handle it. But what do you think the legs are for this show? Because it feels so, like, honestly, like, frenzied when you're watching it, that it's hard to understand what the sustainability and, like, long tail of this show would be. And also, I would have to say that typically what happens in a second season of anything,

especially a show that's set in high school or has, like, an ensemble like this, is they just, like, add characters. And I would have to say that I'm already kind of, like, not really... I know that next week is probably about McKay and Cassie, but I'm just kind of like, who, like, I'm not even sure who all these people are sometimes. So do you think that it's a show that should get, like, larger in its ensemble? And what do you think it can be as it goes forward? I would not be surprised if it, if the season ended with some huge, like, shark jumping, crazy confrontation.

Although, I will say, I was pleasantly surprised in the developments in last night's episode where this choking incident that happened at the county fair in episode four results in a guy, like, getting charges. and people immediately being like, yeah, this is abuse, this is violent, which is, I think, kind of a pleasant surprise to see, like, that kind of character experiencing real consequences. Very far from the river's edge ethos of a kid who tells on another kid is a dead kid, because, like, everybody in there was just like, yo, I don't know if this is relevant to your investigation, but here's all this other gossip that's going on.

That's like just telling the principle, everything. Just immediate stitching, or the way it just immediately becomes common knowledge that this kid is, like, struggling with his second. And it's not even like, oh, like he's lost his popularity. He's nothing. Everyone's just like, oh, yeah. Like, that's an interesting thing that that'll, like occupy my group chat for a second. But the fact that that plot went in a surprising direction just makes me curious on a raw, like, I don't really know what's going to happen next level. I also do think it's smart that they keep the action pretty, like, eight episodes feels like the right length. Yes. And also, I've been surprised, like, we're more than halfway through and not a huge amount is necessarily. necessarily happen. I just, I like this show a lot as just a character base. Let's figure out the interior lives. And I'm curious in the trajectory of the action, but like that's where it's best. And I almost feel like, I agree with you in that I would almost rather they bear down a little

deeper on, you know, there's tons about Jules and her family situation and what's going to happen when she tries to, you know, navigate the whole I'm out, I've outgrown the small town thing that I would just like to see without the additional crowding. Is there juniors? I don't know if they've established that yet. Because Zendaya says, Ruse says something about following Jules to New York

and following her wherever she's going to go. So I was trying to remember like, oh, is this, I bet they're, I bet it's like the weird, like, is Tim Riggins a sophomore for three years so that he can still be on Friday. Yeah, I think they might also just like walk it back where it's like, just kidding.

Yeah. That was 10th grade. Yeah. Let's wrap up by talking about Zendaya, because I haven't actually seen Spider-Man yet because I've just been trapped in front of my computer waiting for people to get traded in the NBA. But it's a really cool star-making performance to the extent that she needed to be made a star anymore

because it's not flashy. Because it's so, it's so like, wise beyond her ears and flat and it's not like Disneyified at all. It's not like stage kid at all. It's very, very, very within itself. Can you talk to me a little bit about how you're feeling about that performance?

Totally. Well, first of all, Lindsay Zillads wrote a great piece for The Ringer about Zendaya's Rides as a Celebrity and the way she's kind of mastered this, like, cool kid deadpan, both in Spider-Man and in Euphoria. Yeah. So to someone say it's an extension of that, yeah. Yeah. And one thing I really like about the sort of casting and characterization on this show is it avoids that problem where it's like, here's someone who is obviously insanely charismatic in that she was cast to anchor a TV show,

but we're going to depict her as like a loser or someone who's widely disliked or a social outcast or something. And I think both her and Jules, played by Hunter Schaefer, are really shrewdly outlined as like, you can see why they don't really fit in. But no one is like, oh, like those weirdos. It's just like they kind of stick to themselves. They're, you know, they fit into the social landscape. You can see how they're a little segregated, but also like they can navigate things in a way that's not like, let's pretend these insanely compelling people. Like, just no one else notices that about them. which is something I really like about Euphoria in general

is that except for this Jacob Belority's character, there aren't really villains. It's just everyone kind of figuring out their own shit. Yeah, and I think that it's doing an interesting thing where we're probably like it's terrifying for adults and maybe it's Pass A for teens. I have no idea. Or maybe it's Pass A for people in their 20s

and we're like, well, that wasn't quite what it was like, by the way, or whatever. But every once in a while, you probably hit a generation that's particularly susceptible to new and or intense amounts of drugs. Like, I mean, like, you know, whether it's like when ecstasy hit or when, you know, you had the 60s with psychedelics, in the 80s with cocaine. And I think that there probably is like an unremarked upon amount of like mind-altering substances going around that are in tandem with the state of the world, being online all the time, living your life as through these like avatars of experience are probably doing a lot to change like

what I grew up like my idea of what like normal high school experiences and also like normal conventions of sexuality and and like identity you know and I think that that's worth noting that like the show seems pretty non-judgmental about all of it and not even using it to be like you should be scared because your kids are doing so many drugs I'm sure that they're I mean like you see somebody like Roo and you see somebody who's like in danger of really falling into a hole But for the most part, it seems to just be kind of like this is like a mode, but it's not necessarily a sin. Yeah, I think the show is best when it does that. I do think it can't really resist sometimes being like, your kids are showing themselves for strangers on the internet and blah, blah, blah.

And I think the more it goes into just. Well, it wants to have it both ways. It wants to have like the shocking thing and then the voiceover that's like, this isn't that big of a deal. Exactly. I think that's totally true. And I think one of the reasons why Zendaya is so great is. that both her character feels very specific and you see how her addiction and her drug use is born out of her specific life history and disposition. And it's not just like kids everywhere

are doing fentanyl. Right. It's like this person feels the need to try these substances because they've been made to feel this way by like the passing of her father and her weird relationship with her mother and her just natural. And the existential experience of like being a suburban an American. You know what I mean? I just kind of like staring at the shadow of 9-11. No, I know. I know. Oh, God. All right, Allison, thank you so much for stopping by. I talk about Euphoria. We'll definitely have you back on. Maybe for

the finale. I'm sure you'll be back on before them. But to talk about the end of the season and what we thought. Sure.