The Watch - SAG-AFTRA Strikes, ‘Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny,’ and Emmy Nomination Snubs and Surprises

Episode Date: July 13, 2023

Chris and Andy talk about the news that SAG-AFTRA, the union representing TV and movie actors, will join the Writers Guild on strike. They discuss how actors going on strike will affect the ongoing writers strike, and when it will start affecting the TV and movies we consume (6:26). Then, they talk about the newest ‘Indiana Jones’ movie and whether it was a fun nostalgia play or just a bad regurgitation of old IP (25:41), before discussing the Emmy nominations that came out today and why ‘Succession’ and ‘White Lotus’ are dominating these awards (39:50). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons from The Ringer, and this is a podcast called The Rewatchables. We have been doing it. Really since 2017, it started with how much we love the movie Heat. We decided to structure a whole podcast with categories, most rewatchable scene. Who on the movie, Apex Mountain, what age the best? But here's the thing. If you want the full archive, you can hear them only on Spotify for free, by the way. So make sure to follow the rewatchables on Spotify.

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Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio where every meal is girl dinner. It's Andy Greenwald! You mentioned dinner. We've got a full, a groaning table, actually, of wonderful dishes. Snacks, really. Oh, yeah.

I'm really excited for the show today. The British call it picky bits, apparently. That's made up. And then the New York Times did a trend piece recently. This is what we're referring to about, quote unquote, girl dinner. Right. Which came out of two women having a hot girl summer walk. Okay.

And identifying that women really like eating, like just snacking for a meal. Does Jonah Hill approve of that? I don't know. Okay. And, you know, and I was just blown away by this trend piece. Tell me why, because I don't know why this has to be gendered. I love small bits. Well, I think it was very specific to, like, my wife, if I may personalize this,

immediately said this is accurate. and when you're not here demanding, you know, a protein two veg and a starch, you know, I guess. Are you a meat and two sides guy? Like, do you, she's like, this is how I eat. It's like a block of cheddar, you know, a couple of olives, you know. But not you. When you come home from a podcast, you take a tray and you go down the steam table. That's right.

That's lovelyly prepared for you. When I go back to my bunk at San Gwitten, where Bill puts me up. But like, like, I'm saying, Kaya, can you weigh in? this, please. Oh, I'd love to. We're also going to talk about the Emmys and the stage of television. We have so much to talk about.

There's a double strike town. But please, let's use this moment to talk about it. You said, let's talk about it. I started talking about it. And now you're like, oh my God, we got to get to the labor disagreements. Well, I just, no, let's,

Kaya, please. Yeah, girl dinner. I love it. It's real, right? But do you feel like, when you saw this in the New York Times, the paper of record, were you like, I feel seen

this is an important trend piece? Or is this non-controversial? And I saw the TikToks that were about this like a couple weeks ago. And TikTok's a website, right? I just want to be clear. Yeah. Yes, I was like, yes, I feel seen. Yeah.

If, yeah, I mean, if I could, like, I live with a boy. And. But if you could, you would just snack for life. In your home, girl dinner, if it was just you alone, you would maybe some tin fish, a little salad. Jose Andres, no, no, no. Tinned fish? People fucking love tin fish. See, a salad is too much work.

Because a salad would require, like, probably some chopping or some, like, washing a vegetable. So it's going to be, like, some gouta cheese. I literally did this the other night. Some chips and hummus, tortilla chips and hummus. That sounds nice. You need to get something sweet in there, so you're going to probably want some, like, kind of fruit. So, like, some cherries maybe. It's just like a dollop of honey.

Yeah, sure. It could be, like, maybe, like, a cracker with, like, a smear of cheese and then, like, a little, like jam on top. A cracker? Yeah. How many girl dinners consecutively until you're full? Like is each bite its own? It's a night long process.

Yes. It's like. It's grazing. Yes. Yes. What is a boy dinner in your household? A boy, a protein, some veg, definitely some green stuff on the plate. But I guess what I mean is, is it, is it this what happens when in a, you know, a boy girl household or the boy leaves the household?

this is what the girl will eat. Yes. If the girl leaves the household, what will the boy eat? Well, speaking from personal experience, my boy will fire up the grill and like fully grilled himself like a steak. What? Yeah. It's like, that's just too much work for me.

He will just do a steak for one? Yeah. Yes. There's tons of YouTube videos about steaks for one. It's about, it's about like, you know, taking care of yourself. I'll tell you what boy dinner really is. Okay. It's opening up a can of middain.

Yes. And then... Finishing it. Yeah, getting like halfway through. Then me like, you know what? This has diminishing returns. I'm going to open up my second one because it's always that first sip. Right.

Then for me, what do I do? I usually get Chinese food. I usually order takeout. That's guy dinner. All right. For me. Yeah. I think the idea is to come up with a guy aesthetic for the grazing tray that Kai is describing.

Right. But like I don't have like the, you know, I don't have the salt fat. acid heat component. What I do is I get a bunch of novelty turkey legs, like the giant ones, and I throw them in the freezer. And then you eat them frozen or you thought about? They're just like protein popsicles when they're ready. No, I feel like I combine the aesthetics of both of these things.

But I will cook for one. Yeah, me too. I enjoy cooking for one. Yeah. But I will cook like... Like mac and cheese with sour cream and herbs. I'll see whatever's in the fridge. Like I'll take leftovers and I'll usually combine them with vegetables and some garlic and put an egg

So my truthful move is to take what's in the fridge and just make a taco out of it. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Whatever I can do. Okay. Does the taco always have like the most loving tribute to like Wahawk and culture? No, it's often just like... Macrobee and cheese in the taco.

Exactly. Wow. Andy, I don't know why we're wasting time talking about girl dinner. I don't feel my time's wasted. I just feel like I need to process some of this and then have six to seven girl dinners and then we can resume. Okay. There a lot is going on in this town. hashtag this league.

We've got a double strike on the horizon. By the time people hear this, it probably will be a double strike between Sagan and WGA. Oh, it's not between us. Well, both of those entities being on a strike against the studios.

Yeah. And let me just say, I'm so relieved that the pressure I've been feeling of being one of the hottest people on the picket lines. Why do you keep making this joke? Do you want me to say,

no, Andy, you're beautiful man? No, I just feel like that's a good... I mistake you for an actor all the time. That's a good joke. I think. And also everyone ever on the line yesterday was like, now we'll get more catering trucks. Because George Clooney will be like, here's some tacos. Right. The Cosambigos Express is coming through. Yeah. So we talked a little bit about this. I am really, it started to seem like a done deal like this was going to happen over the last few days.

But I think up until Monday, I was still a little bit skeptical that this would actually happen. and as someone who has been on strike for a number of weeks, I'm really thrilled. I think it's fantastic for the actors to draw a line in the sand and to stand up to the way the AMPTP has been behaving. I think it is absolutely beneficial to both groups that we are now both out and can negotiate from a better position. The crazy things this week of the people may have been following

was Monday seems to be the day that everyone in hashtag this town woke up and realized this was real. Yeah. there was a lot of assumption that this would just follow a typical playbook and everything would fall the way the AMTP wanted, which was... NTP being the coalition of these... The conglomerant of studios and streamers, that basically they would get the directors to fold, check that the actors would come into line, and then the writers would continue to be ostracized and be treated as outliers who are screwing this up for everyone. That is not the case from everything that I understand, and I am not privy to the conversations.

the aim PTP continues to just be basically contemptuous about the idea of talking about AI in any substantive way and the actor said no. And on Monday, when it was clear that they were not going to extend the deadline, all of a sudden we found these rugged individualist, capitalist people in charge of these studios being like, feds, please help, please come help with these unreasonable people. We saw them starting to say that there was just sort of a fractious minority

that was running things when the fractious minority, I guess includes real, you know, real, flamethrowers like Merrill Streep who signed the letter that said that you need to take this seriously. You saw like the biggest of bigwigs like Ari Emanuel and Brian Lord from WME and CAA being like, why don't we get involved? Yeah, and bring in a federal mediator to try and...

Right, and then also part and parcel to this was just some real wild releasing of the dogs that I feel like was out of... There was a deadline article, I think it was Monday as well. And this really like, in terms of if you were reading like... industry Twitter, WGA, Twitter, like, just in general, like, if you were looking at, like, social media that night, there was an article on deadline that quoted a, I think a variety of anonymous sources within the industry. Some were studio executives or some were people close to negotiations on the studio side. And I will throw a theory at you. So, like, just here's a garden variety quote from this article. It was, quote, the end game is to allow things to drag on until union members start losing. their apartments and losing their houses, a studio executive told deadline,

acknowledging the cold as ice approach, several other sources reiterated the statement. One insider called it a cruel but necessary evil. Now, I'm going to ask you a 3D chess, the 4D chess thing. On one hand, I think this is just kind of where we are post-2016 where everything is anonymous sources and in that kind of obscurity,

people get to make maybe more extreme points or threaten and saber-rattle in a way that they wouldn't if they had to put their name on it. On another hand, I cannot see a world in which this article and deadline benefits anybody but the labor side. Right. Because you just immediately, anybody with, frankly,

like a soul comes out being like, what fucking ghouls? Like, I hope that WGA and SAG get everything that they want. Well, the AMPTP has fucked up. Yeah. Their job is to make a deal. They have failed to, two or the three times

and failed preposterously and catastrophically and it's going to have a huge effect on the industry. So they screwed up. It's also worth noting that when you talk about industry stuff, you know, I enjoy a lot of the writers and I enjoy a lot of the coverage from Hollywood Reporter and Variety and Deadline.

They share an owner, Jay Penske, who is on the AMPTP. It is widely, you know, among WGA and SAG members and probably DGA members, those trades are considered broadly pro-AMPTP. I don't know if that's accurate or not. pro-labor trade?

I think it's blue sky, which I've just been told about, and I won't be joining. I think that there are talented journalists at those outlets who would resent that implication that they are on one side or another, and I don't mean to tar them with that brush. That is the impression when these articles

that often they are carrying... It's the same thing with the Ringer and the Boston Sports Mafia. Yeah, that's true. Because the thing is, I'm still... An unfair characterization. It's unfair. That nonetheless persists, possibly because

you perpetuating. I'm just a guy curious how Damien Lillard could get to the Celtics. And if there were two to six podcasts that might explain that to me, I'd be interested.

So I am the problem. All of this is to say, it is 100% in keeping with the AMPTP's playbook to try to sow division within the guilds within the WGA. It is absolutely part of their playbook

to drag this on until what they perceive to be the more vulnerable members of the guild cannot afford to keep going. And they begin to bring their frustrations and concerns to the people on the negotiating committee or to the louder voices of famous showrunners or whomever and basically force leadership of the guild

back to the table early. That's part of the playbook. I don't think it was part of the playbook to just basically pull out a howitzer and start shooting off strays like that on Monday. Right. Everything that happened Monday from wanting to bring in the Fed federal negotiator

to the agents getting involved to that article was, to me, panic. It was pure panic. And it was uncharacteristic, at least in my reading of the negotiations or the whatever, the situation so far in that the studio side had been pretty sphinx-like to a point.

Yeah, they weren't commenting. They, in fact, were not doing any counter-parative. They were seemingly very content to be the villains and just to get their way, just to basically the choice they made was to be, we're professional dealmakers,

we're going to get back to the table. Now, it's fine, and people keep asking me like, sir, sir, how have things been going in the strike? I'm like, we got ice cream sandwiches

and coolers now. You've got like a carrot stick and some hummus and you're just like, dandy. I'm very full with this. Trust me. I just prefer to graze.

No, I mean, there have been no negotiations. There have been none. Since this talks broke off on May 1st, there have been no negotiations. And that is all. also a choice. So that was a wild day. And to your point, yeah, it absolutely, it was fearmongering,

but it backfired for a number of reasons. I was out at Disney yesterday and there were more people than there a few weeks ago, probably in response to this, also probably in anticipation of the actors. And I also just think it's continued evidence of the complete disconnection from the business that these people have created, where I think to them suggesting that professional writers might lose their apartments eventually. And it's just like, guys, there are people with credits on shows that were nominated for Emmys this week who have already lost their apartments and homes before we called the strike because you have created an industry where you cannot make rent over a 12-month period.

That's old news. Find a new slam. Like, people understand how precarious this is, and that's why these strikes are happening now. Yeah, there was a moment on Monday when I was like, you know what, this feels like almost a reverse-engineered ways to galvanize exactly the kind of thing you're talking about, which is like an increased even turnout on the picket line. Like this deadline article just felt almost, for lack of a better phrase, too good to be true, like it was too evil to be true?

I also do, I think there's credence to that. I think that people, good faith people who want a deal done on the other side are not happy about articles like that. And it's some studio heads and people went out of their way to make comments saying, like, this does not represent any of my views or I don't know who these. people are. But. Yeah. But.

Yep. Today. Yep. Bob Iger, the extended CEO of Disney, who re-signed for another two years, he went on CNBC live from Sun Valley, which is, I wish I was there with you, Bobby. But, you know, like, it was at the, whatever that. You ever been to Sun Valley? Never been to Idaho at all.

No. I always wanted to see Boise States. Bluefield. Yeah. It's nice. I always found that. Oh, you did. spend a lot in Idaho. That's right. Sure did. It's right. What's Sun Valley like? Nice in the summer.

Yeah. Not a big fan in the winter. Not a big fan of the winter. So Bobby was in Sun Valley. He gives this interview and it's a pretty fascinating look at the state of the company and the state of the industry. Among other things, he talks about Disney beginning to think about unwinding its position on broadcast television, which would obviously... It might not be a core business for them. That would obviously include ABC and ESPN, and there's often been rumors that ESPN could be spun off. He also talked about the state of corporate IP storytelling, especially with regards to Marvel and Star Wars,

and that Marvel especially had overextended itself and gone from zero to 60 in the television business and that they were going to pull back. And I can't remember the actual phrase he used, but it was something basically, like, he was like, it was just an amazing, like, kind of like, dovetail of, these shows aren't good and they cost too much. So to save money and to rebuild the brand,

we're just going to pull back. So I think we're in mid-secret invasion. As listeners can probably tell, we have abandoned our child. I don't care. We have abandoned our boy. I honestly get bored reading the recaps, and those take like two minutes.

And I don't know when we'll return to the Marvel Cinematic Universe, especially on the small screen. So yeah, Bob Iger addressed that. But on the bigger end, on the more important end, more germane end, he addressed the strike. And he talked about how essentially this was like the wrong time for this all to be happening

coming out of COVID and that the other side was being unreasonable, more or less. You know, he's got to say these things, I guess. But I found the tone and position that he was taking to be less than conciliatory. Now, maybe that's, you have to start from an aggressive place when you're negotiating. I don't know what these guys are going. Also, I think that rich men get mad. when they don't get what they want. I mean, I think that's genuine.

Yeah. I think that they're mad. This was supposed to be easy. I will say, as a caveat, like, from everything that I know from people who have worked with him and around him, Bob Eiger is one of the few executives who knows what business he's primarily in, who does believe in empowering creative people when it suits the company's bottom line. But broadly has empowered good people and has supported good things.

That seems to be the overall impression of him. I also will say that his continued seat at the table is insane to me and also part of the larger cultural rot that I'm concerned about that we're going to talk about later in the podcast when we reflect on Indiana Jones in the Dial of Destiny. Yeah. Which is to say, like, everybody knows this. Like, he had one of the most legendary runs of CEOdom in history.

And this idea that only I can fix it is a real problem in just all avenues of American life. And it is bizarre. that even though he's done, you know, I listen to the town, and you hear Matt and Lucas Shaw from Bloomberg talking about, like, these are wins on a corporate level, which I don't fully understand, but I think they're probably accurate in their assessment of it,

in terms of things that he's unwound that Chepec did. But what's bizarre to me about it is he's cleaning up his own messes, which draws attention to the messes that he made. Instead of being lionized for buying Marvel and buying Lucasfilm, he is now actually having to deal with the fact that Marvel is an enormous, creative decline and has been diluted, that Lucasfilm is a disaster, frankly, in terms of its creative output and what they've gotten back

from the deal and decision-making's behind it. And he has to be the one standing up and speaking to all that. Now, in terms of things being as being an unreasonable time, I guess, sad face emoji is my response. He's getting paid $27 million a year. I'm going to read you some Bob Iger quotes. Yeah.

We managed as an industry to negotiate a very good deal with the Directors Guild that reflects the value that the directors contribute to this great business. Can we get some directors on to talk about how they feel about their historic deal today? We wanted to do the same thing with the writers, and we'd like to do the same thing with the actors. There's a level of expectation that they have that is just not realistic. And they are adding to the set of the challenges that this business is already facing that is quite frankly very disruptive. Who should bear the blame for the catastrophic decisions he and his C-suite executives have made?

I don't know. Who should suffer for that? I think if you look at the larger arc of American... Dr. Henry Jones, perhaps? Yeah. If you look at the larger arc of American capitalism, then yeah, it's the people at the bottom of the food chain who suffer for it first.

That's a tale as old as time. But there's a lot on the table here. And I think that now that there are two... that actors and writers are out, I think everything gets shaken up. The whole Snow Globe gets jumbled, and I don't know what it means. I think that the article you were referring to

from Monday said that they were going to bleed the writers until they cried poverty in October and then magnanimously accept them back to the table and fuck them over, the fall deadline still seems likely to me. Like, that still seems like when... Deadline to get stuff. Well, there's like, there's a sort of unofficial deadline to get anything on as a mid-season replacement on broadcast, right? Oh, I mean, I'm not even... That's gone. Okay. They're screwed. So, like, we will not get an Abbott Elementary season, for instance. Well, I don't know if you won't get a season. I mean, if you remember the last strike, which lasted longer than this one did, but it was just a writer's strike, affected things in a way

that, like, the second, I don't know if it's the second season of Breaking Bad was seven episodes. I mean, you got, everything was reduced. I do think there will be some sort of television season, 23 to 24. I don't know how many episodes, and I certainly don't, wouldn't speak to when it would start. Yeah. But the industry's stopped now. You know, I think that there was a clock that was running in people's heads that said that they had enough content already banked to get them through whatever date they had marked on their calendar. But the thing that happens now is all of that bank content, no one's promoting it for you. Yeah, well, the actors are not going to do interviews. They're not going to support it. And that effectively can kill something. Many things

that were in production, many of these productions being overseas because a lot of the big tent stuff happens in England or Romania or whatever. So Andor, House of the Dragon. I believe the Kate Winslet show, The Palace, you know, like there's a bunch of stuff you can find an article on deadline that kind of goes through. It's essentially like all the shows that we were looking forward to next year have paused, stopped, or shut down production. Now that the WGA is out and now that the actors are out,

I'm not sure exactly, oh, I believe even industry was mentioned. I don't know if they finished their third season or not. I don't think they finished it. I'm sure we get Conrad and Mickey to come. comment on it, but they have not only British actors, but like Mahalo is the star of the show, is certainly a member of Sag Aftera. It's

a trickle-down effect now. I don't want to lose the entire show to this, but... You want to get back to crazing for dinner. No, no. I do want to, but like, okay, so the actors and the writers are out. Should we, as a layperson, view those two

entities as a single negotiating block now? They are different guilds with different needs and different deals that were left, that were walked away from and different goals. But I do feel that there's a lot of overlap and a lot of mutual support and we'll be walking the lines together. And I think the shared goal is similar in that we're trying to get more transparency. We're trying to get more reward for success in an industry that has increasingly become opaque and doesn't share any information and doesn't provide residuals. And then the biggest one and the naughtiest one apparently, considering

how low the studios have been to even discuss it, is AI. and you know everyone's like and Igers like the director's made a great deal about AI yeah they get a fucking meeting because it's not bothering them yet

right it is terrifying for writers but it is happening right now for actors and I don't think that's really been understood by the powers that be how terrifying and horrifying

that is and I say this is someone who just saw a dial of destiny so I don't know there is not one we're not all going to get together sing kumbaya and sign something together. They're going to be different needs. They're going to be negotiated, hopefully in good faith, once they allow negotiations to begin again. And I don't know when that would be. But I do think there is strength in numbers. And I also do

deeply believe, and I would have believed this, even if I was just a layperson or a podcaster, whose body was wasting away because I'd only had almonds for dinner for three nights. Like, this is the moment to do this. I'm sorry, Bob Eiger. Iger. I'm sorry COVID was inconvenient, but like, this is an existential moment because we see where it's going. And you don't just say, oh, no, we trust you. Yeah. Because they've already broken the business. So how is anyone supposed to have a career in it?

Speaking of AI, it is pretty cool when you open Instagram and like the AI voice is like on every Instagram video now. Have you noticed that? Have my sound off. So it's just like everybody is talking about girl dinner. It's the biggest latest craze in dining. And you're just like, yeah, I'm developing like a paris social relationship with you. Blade Runner.

Tell me all about chickpeas. Are they coming for podcasts next? I hope so. I hope so, too. It would be a relief. Ironically, or hilariously, in the midst of all this, the Emmys get not. And nominations get announced. Do you want, well, I almost feel like we should do indie because I think it's connected.

It's all connected. That's what we've learned by doing this podcast for so long. That's what we've learned from the Steven Soderberg series Full Circle, which will also be talking about. It's all connected. But do you know what I mean? Like, because I feel like you enjoyed this movie more than I did. I did. Yeah.

But I actually have a broader question for you about life itself when it comes to this. Okay. Have you found, like, so you did not like Dial with Destiny? I mean, I don't want to be hyperbolic, you know? And I think that people generally think of me as like a positive, good time guy. Okay. My main takeaway leaving the theater yesterday was that we are a deceased and necrotic culture, addicted to feasting on its own excrement, and we're doomed.

Have you? I mean, that was just like my broad strokes. You've been like, that was okay. Like anything. I loved it. It's the best thing that came out this year. It's the best thing that's released in five years. Or we are feasting on the necrotic culture of our own excrement.

Is that what you just said? The other day, I had some jarred white beans and some arugula. And I made, Kyah, you might be interested in this bar. I made like a delightful sherry vinaigrette that really was only a few steps. And I was like, this is fine. That was the last time. No, I mean, like... When it comes to art.

Hijack? Hijack? Highjack, thank you. Yes. God, you saved me. I actually didn't have an answer. Yeah. I really think hijack is fine, and I'm enjoying it a lot, and I don't want any more from it.

And I'm going to watch the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Okay. Anything else come to mind after that? No, that's it. Just hijack.

No, because there is a way to have engaged with the Fifth Indian Jones movie and be like, that was a movie, and that was two and a half hours, and it could have been worse. That's okay. I think, am I the film? I think we can do better. But I also think that this could not be better. And I also think that there are two active conversations to have about it. One, the merits of the film itself, which I'm happy to talk about in a non-hyperbolic way. But I also think the larger trends, cultural trends of it, are deeply disturbing. You know, in that. I feel like we have done that recently on this podcast. Yeah, I'm not going to go big.

But I want to give you the space to do it. I'm not going to go too big. I just think that it's connected to the Bob Iger thing. Bob Iger is in his 70s and Kathy Kennedy is in... Go off, Kay. And this is, they spent $300 million making a movie about a character that hasn't been good or compelling to the culture in 35 years. And why? Because I guess because during the years that it was in pre-production and production,

they could say they were doing something, that they were, everyone was like, of course they're making another one because the people who write the trades and who do podcasts are like, I recognize the valency of this currency. Yeah. Because otherwise, why? They did it because of podcasters.

Yes. No, I think the most interesting thing about this movie is that at some point if we survive the next 10 years, someone will write like a really compelling think piece in the Atlantic being like, at that moment in American history it was important to lionize an 80-year-old.

It's true. And make it seem like he's real up for whatever and can fight. That's the only interesting thing about it to me. I was stunned by. And by the way, I'm going to go see, am I dead Rex like ASAP? I'm going to go see that and I cannot wait.

I'm not saying I am out on mainstream sequel entertainment. No. I just thought this was just shockingly bizarre. What kind of expectations did you walk into this thing? Because you mentioned that he's not been relevant for 35 years. I take it you're not a Crystal Skull fan. No. But also, but are you like an Indiana Jones fan?

Yes. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I love those movies. Yeah. I don't think they're just okay. I think they're great.

But also, I think it's okay to stop with things. And I don't know what it's serving to have an 80-year-old Indiana Jones, who then also in the movie can still jump out of airplanes and punch everyone and get shot and be fine. There's no humanity in any of this. And the thing about the character that was always so compelling was that he was an archaeologist, right? Like, he isn't Tom Cruise, writing a motorist.

cycle off of the class. I mean, he's pretty active. He leads an active lifestyle for a senior. Yeah. That's true. Even in the last crusade. I would say that the amount of time spent in the classroom in the Indiana Jones films is

minimal. It's about the amount of time I spent in the classroom. Although that classroom scene in Les Crusade is great. Yeah. I liked all the New York stuff in Dialo of Destiny. Spoilers for Dial of Destiny, I suppose. I thought some of these set pieces, if you adjust for the fact that everything is pretty much CGI now and everything is going to be taking

place inside of a volume or green screen like environment where nothing seems real and everything seems lit with an IKEA desk lamp. I thought like the, was it the tucktucks in Morocco, like that chase was kind of neat and inspired. I thought that stuff's really boring because they're all the same. There's always a train fight. There's always a motorcycle thing. There's a long-ass chases in those movies. I totally will admit that. And our appetite and our rhythms for action scenes have changed dramatically over the last 20 years. I was thinking about that a lot because Raiders is essentially the blueprint for something exciting happens every nine minutes and that never lets the audience get bored.

And now I think we require something exciting that happens every 90 seconds. So watching a film like Dial of Destiny that sort of subscribes to somewhat older rhythms, which even in of themselves, we're hyper for that time period. It's kind of, I'm like, Christ, like I guess our brains really are coming out of our ears. For what it's worth, and this is probably the least relevant take. I don't think anyone had this particular Zag, but I was like in the three quiet moments of the movie, I thought Harrison Ford's pretty good.

Yeah. He's a icon and a legend and brilliant on screen, and when they let him be a human in the movie, he was pretty good at it. But otherwise, he's just whether it's CGI or not, it was just take away my hyperbole about the specific

movie, it is not a healthy entertainment environment to spend this much money on this and get this result and have it be what it is, you know, make a good movie. I dare you. Make a good movie. Yeah. And then worry about its obligation to the expanded cinematic universe and everything, because there is a wrongheadedness here that does worry me because we won't say any more about Dial of Destiny, but to walk away from this movie and feel like it was a, it had an emotional ending or closure.

you would have to be deeply invested in an Indiana Jones love story that began in 1981. Yeah. There is no point of entry here for anyone who didn't know anything about that. But we've talked about this before is the mere nerve sensation of recycling or referencing something that's happened. I mean, I don't know if you saw this, but they're making, they're shooting Deadpool 3 right now. Yeah. And the story came out that Jennifer Garner, who played Elektra in one of the most reviled, like, superhero movies of all time, is going to play Elektra in Deadpool 3. One of the biggest pieces of poor casting, too.

And it's now, we have kind of crossed the Rubicon where it's like, it doesn't matter. As long as it is in reference to something that happened in the past, people can feel like completists and draw like these little connections to it. I just don't know who those, why are we only making movies for those people? And I think the Top Gun thing is an interesting comparison because Top Gun, what you were feeling, the feelings of familiarity were to the first Top Gun in terms of the way it made you feel and the type of storytelling it was employing. It didn't matter if you knew that Jennifer Connolly's character is the one who is referred to in a throwaway line in the first movie. Right. That did not matter to your understanding of the film or your enjoyment of it. And in fact, you know, the things about the Top Gun Maverick movie that were like overly cynical,

or calculated to me where the villains are just faceless video game antagonists so that this movie could play at any era that made sense to do

because that's not what the movie was about maybe it's a one of one because maybe Tom Cruise is a one of one but like and look the CGI indie thing

the AI indie thing is fucking freaky because I think you said this on the podcast scraped his performances from the eternity of Harrison Ford as Indiana Jones

performance but he talks like an year old man. This isn't great. Like, this just isn't good. This isn't a good trend, and it's not making good stuff. And I don't think I'm the crank on the hill saying that. I didn't say that.

I'm speaking to future criticism. I was more like when you texted me yesterday and you were just like, L.O.L. We are a diseased culture. I think that's what you said. Did I try that take out on you then? No, I mean, everything is, you know, we just move from the private to the public, you know. But I think I was like, huh. You know, I think when you were like, I'm going to see Indiana Jones.

You were excited. Way to go, my guy. Because people should know that I let you know what I'm doing at almost all times. And I said, I said, good for you or something like that. And then you were like, I am deeply appalled and nauseated by the state of the world. And that's just not how I felt watching that movie. I just feel too much. But I also wonder whether, you know, you and I are different guys, you know.

I think that there's, I legitimately do want to separate the point that like this movie didn't hurt anybody. There was a lot of goodwill and skill and talented talent that went into it. You know what I mean? But what it represents and all of that effort going into this just cul-de-sac is so weird to me that we are just so slavishly devoted to old things, old brands, old people stewarding things to please old ideas and old familiar neural pathways is fucked. It just that starts to worry me. I don't mean to ask you an unfair question, but you.

you were the one who sort of associated the Raiders part or the Indiana Jones part with the first part of the conversation we had. So what is the labor movement in Hollywood going to do to fix that? Anything? To fix? Well, first of all, we would protect Antonio Banderas at all costs. That was the only other thing I wanted to ask you about, which was, that was him?

You were serious about that? That's Antonio Banderas is a Greek fisherman or Spanish. Spanish fisherman, yeah. And deep sea diver. He was great. I really love it when. I really love it. when people who are like,

because he was, he's a beautiful man. He still is a beautiful man, but he is so ready to be just an old fuck in these movies. Yeah. I really appreciate that. What is the labor movement? I don't have an answer. What is the connection between the first part of our conversation

and the Dial of Destiny conversation? I think that this is the battlefield. Uh-huh. That this is what is being made. This is what the people in charge, the people who are saying, we're the problem. This is what they are prioritizing.

This specifically, the Iger thing is that he's like the writers and actors are being unreasonable when he is, with promotion everything, they spent half a billion dollars on this movie. With these people, after this larger acquisition of Lucasfilm,

which just seems to be like, you know, and look, Andro's the best show of the year, and we're going to talk about it last year, and it's nominated for Emmys, and I've said before that there are a lot of great, smart, talented people who work there who try to do their best work,

or try to do their best work every day. But if you look at the results, it is just tepid brand management. Yeah. Being like, finally, we get continuation of Willow's story. They've already scraped it from the servers. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Like so... Yeah. So the... For a second, I thought Willow was a character in Indiana Jones, and I was just like, what the fuck was Willow? Willow was on the Nazi train beginning. Yeah. That was a wombat, you were thinking about.

Yeah, wombat. Which just flows off the, you know... No, I... The reason I bring it up is because this... We're being disruptive in this moment, because look at where all the money is going and look at where the industry is going. And there are fewer and fewer opportunities

for any kind of, not just you could say fewer and fewer opportunities for careers, but also fewer and fewer opportunities for original ideas to break through. And again, I say this with hopefully some humility, which is like James Mangold is a A-list director. The Butterworth's like write major movie scripts.

They do this shit. Yeah. These are sturdy, steady hands. giving their all for something that I feel like maybe needed the common sense czar at day one being like, we sure? Like Bill? You needed Bill executive producing Dial of Destiny. Why can't he wind up at Harvard?

You know? Yeah. He didn't like the New York piece. But wait, before we get to the Emmys. Just to say, we need, Chris, we need to be okay letting go of stuff. that's what I think culturally. People need to do their job and then not be CEO anymore.

I think Indiana Jones can live as a wonderful character with movies that we'll have forever and then we can let go of it. And this constant circle jerking of reboots and multiversal storytelling and everything, just clinging desperately to everything.

And I say this as news that the fucking Tron 3 is being filmed. It's like... It's Trot-Tron Ares technically. I don't think it's called Tron 3. You water carrier. You absolute. Yeah.

We just need to let go of stuff so something new can start. And I don't think, and I don't think I'm the bad guy for saying that. I don't think you're the bad guy. I just don't think it's just like Daddy Warbucks in his ivory tower is just like, make me another Indiana Jones movie. I do have an idea for an Annie reboot. Harrison Ford has been Force Awakens, Blade Runner 2049, and Indiana Jones on the Dial of Destiny. I think he's pretty interested in reviving the big roles of his career.

I think private plane flying is an expensive hobby. Yeah, just saying, takes two to tango. Yeah, it does, but we are also headed towards a place, and this also does connect to the strike thing, which is they don't need him to make Indiana Jones 6. Well, I mean, nobody needs him to make Indiana Jones 6. Nobody needs Indiana Jones 6. But the larger point about like, let's let's let go of this.

I'm just trying to provide a bomb. Look, I think I probably have even more extreme views about that kind of stuff than you do, where I'm just like, I'm ready to go back to the 96 and just like, let's make sex lies and videotape and leave it all fucking behind in the rear view mirror. You were like that until I showed you a picture

of Hugh Jackman in Wolverine's iconic yellow suit, and you were like, let's go. This is everything to me. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike

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This episode is brought to you by the Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo. that's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets at the game or grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms apply. Do you want to talk about the Emmys? I do. Should I do the same segue I was going to do 20 minutes ago? Oh, it's ironic that All of this labor strife is happening when Hollywood does what it loves to do best, celebrate itself, with some award shows. That was a good segue. I'm sorry I stepped on that. No, I was happy to talk about Dialogue Destiny. I just thought I didn't really have another one. So I thought I would use the old segue.

I think that's fine. If anyone is still listening, I'm sure they'll appreciate it. It's just Bobbiker. We have positive things to say at the end of this podcast. Bobbiger's on his treadmill since four in the morning, listening to The Watch. He's just like, I can't believe I lost Greenwald. No, I feel like he's like, Greenwald said that I was a rare executive. with a creative touch. That's the takeaway. Off the top, this show might not happen. So the enemies typically are broadcast in September, I believe, right? Yep.

And they'll probably be on strike in September. Yeah, I saw our friend of the pod, Casey Blois, did an interview because HBO has the most nominations in the drama. They have four of the slots in the drama series, which hasn't happened since NBC in the early 90s. And even in that interview, this happened yesterday before the strike was even official, the actor strike and he was like, I don't think we'll have a ceremony. Yeah, I mean, it's 11 a.m. Pacific on Thursday.

I just saw an article where it's like Emily Blunt is like if there's a strike we're walking off, like we're walking out of the Oppenheimer premiere tonight. Boy, the movie must be that much of a slug, huh? Do you think that's what that's about? No, I think because she's in solidarity. They're going to walk out. She rules. I love it. So there's been some rumors that it's going to happen in November.

Some rumors that it might happen in January. I love getting another award show in there in January. I don't know if when they're going to have this, when they have it, it'll already have been like another four or five months of television. I don't know what that's going to do to people's brains when they're like, which season of White Lotus is this

and what season of Ted Lassow are we celebrating? But for what it's worth, I really do hope they delay it because we'll get into some of the specifics. Like there's so many worthy performers and writers and directors who are nominated that it would be a bummer that they didn't get to have their moment. It would be a shame if white,

Lotus and Succession. Weren't properly recognized for that. No, I'm thinking about like, like, Eben from the bear and the whole bear crew nominated. I don't want to sound too cranky about this, but I think that- Being cranky on this podcast is a deal breaker. I think that this is like, for the most part, I celebrate a lot of the nominations, especially in the bigger categories like drama, but when you get down to the supporting performers, a year and a half to explain to me how something like this happens.

Well, sure. Okay, so let's, do you want to... Yeah, I'll do supporting... But talk about the big... I mean, the... All right. The big categories, and then I think we should. Best drama series, honestly, I've no... I'm not going to really argue about this.

Andor, Better Call Saul, the Crown, House of the Dragon, Last of Us, Succession, The White Lotus, and Yellow Jackets. That's a strong list. It's a really good list. Best Comedy series. This is where you start to get into a little bit of genre discussions, but Abbott Elementary, Barry the Bear,

jury duty. Probably one of the surprises of the night, for sure of the of the announcements. The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel only murders in the building Ted Lasso and Wednesday. So another really cool list. You know, Barry's comic delights are up to be debated. Well, the bear as well. I mean, we are in this place.

It really is half hour versus hour. That's the distinction at this point. And then the biggest, you know, the thing that's probably had the most kind of controversy about it as a category as things get moved from limited to ongoing series. but the limited or anthology series nominations are for beef, which I liked quite a bit. Dahmer, Daisy Jones in the 6, Fleischman is in trouble, and Obi-1 fucking Kenobi.

That's wild. Yeah, that is wild to me. I mean, that was a limited or anthology series. I hope so. So it was correct in where they placed it. That was a shocker. Yeah, so where I sort of started to really have some problems with this is specifically in the supporting actors,

drama and supporting actress drama series. But let me go through supporting actor in a drama series. F. Marie Abraham, the White Lotus, Nicholas Braun, Succession. Michael Imperioly, the White Lotus. Theo James, the White Lotus. Matthew McFadion, Succession. Alan Ruck, Succession. Will Sharp, the White Lotus.

Alexander Scarsguard, Succession. How's that happen? What's your point? How does that happen? Did people only watch two shows? Yes. That's fucking pathetic. It's a mess.

I mean, so, okay, there's a couple things to say. One, this year, because it is now clearly an ongoing, the White Lotus category jumped. So it is now in the drama series, forcing out other potentially worthwhile nominees in the process. I think that one of the strange things about this moment, almost maybe unanticipated things about this moment of extreme peak TV, which I think we will not return to these heights. But there's a count that it was 300 shows a year, 400 scripted shows a year. One of the results of that explosion is, I think, a narrowing of people's not just viewing habits, but of their interest in pursuing viewing habits. People watch what they like.

And it's almost as if the sheer quantity serves as a permission slip that you don't have to hunt around the margins to the degree that you used to. So voting for these things becomes just checking boxes. Yeah. It's bizarre, but it's also not possible, both from an actor's point of view or even the SAG point of view, the show couldn't say, we're only putting Will Sharp and Michael Imperiali up for this award. You know, we're not going to... Why not? Well, the actors have every right to, like, submit themselves. Sure. To be considered. And so, you know, that you enter into these strange things where it's not like, like Alan Ruck, I don't think has been nominated before and deserves it. I mentioned. Everybody deserves it. Everybody's really good in this. I just mean, like, as a competition and as, like, a celebration of totality of television, it just seems odd.

We shouldn't be narrowed to this degree. I think that year after year, when we've done it on the podcast or even when I was writing about it for Grantland, I am generally, though I think award shows are silly, the Emmys have generally done a fairly good job of representing the enormity and the scope and the abilities of the people who are working on TV. And one of the ways that they did that was in these, they're not marginal categories, but slightly off to the side categories like supporting. You would get surprise people, or if a show wasn't nominated or couldn't break through, maybe a special performer would make, you know,

and this wasn't a supporting category, but I think about Rami, Yusuf from Rami getting nominated a few years ago. Like, you can make noise a little. I think you won. That's increasingly not the case, because it has become celebrity-driven, a big name, will push things forward.

I couldn't quantify how much Ewan McGregor playing Obi-1 Canobi means that that got, is the reason why it got nominated because both Ewan McGregor is famous, but the name Obi-1 Canobi is a lot more famous. It does seem like there's a lot of that, just like I like Succession, so I'm just going to save myself some time and just check it all the way down the line. In Best Actor and Actress, you have a little bit more, well, not that much more, but some more variety in the drama series. Jeff Bridges for the Old Man, which I think you,

and I thought his performance was quite good, but kind of fell off on that series after a couple of episodes. Brian Cox, Kieran Culkin from Succession, Bob Odenkirt from Better Call Saul, Pedro Pascal from Last of Us, and Jeremy Strong from Succession. You know, I don't know how the voting really, like,

operates in this, but is there any outside chance that all these people cancel each other out and Jeff Bridges or Pedro Pascal win? Yes. Or Bob Odenkirk, for that matter? Probably not, because nobody watches Better Call Saul. There's a chance.

though. I think that that is definitely what some of these people are banking on. I think it's a weird, this is a weird list to talk about because, and you said it a moment ago, I don't have, I have almost no issues with the people who were nominated. I would have liked more diversity in terms of the shows they were pulling from and the people that were nominated. But this makes a lot of sense to me. You know, I remember, like we just mentioned Emily Blunt. Like Emily Blunt in the English was one of my favorite performances and one of my favorite shows of last year. I didn't come into this with any illusions that it was going to be nominated because barely anyone saw. I continue to look at it and say like, well, Daisy Jones and Six was pretty good. And I'm really glad that Riley Keog got a nominated. Yeah. Got nominated and that people noticed it even though it wasn't a big hit. I think it's awesome that Dominic Fishback got nominated. I think it's awesome. The Android got nominated.

I mean, there's definitely some like cool. Fleischman in Trouble was really good. And it was celebrated as well. But it is, it's weird. There's no other way around it. It's weird. And it is notable that even within succession, there was some interesting jockeying, right?

Where both Kieran and Sarah Snook put themselves up in lead, which had not been the case. Right. It all worked out. And if Brian Cox, who, spoiler for succession, if you were listening to our... Let's just say he's not in the full season. Yeah, he's only in three episodes.

Two, really, right? Worked out for all of them. Yeah. So, I mean, in the show, we love the show. But it is interesting. I think things like the bear getting as many nominations as it did in both in writing and directing, in Jeremy Allen White

and Evan Moss Backrack and Iota Berry getting nominated. That isn't as, that isn't as fate accompli as it would seem. If you were listening only to this podcast, you would be like,

of course all they were all nominated. And by the way, this is all for season one. Yeah. It's why the season two, I mean, among many reasons, but season two did not even try to compete in that window

because, well, actually, I guess, yes, for this year. So season two will be in, they've timed, they figured out the windows. I don't need to give, FX advice on that. But that show still is unlikely. And these are not huge stars. And they are being

recognized because people really genuinely loved it. So I think that's a good thing. But and Sharon Hogan getting nominated for Bad Sisters, Bad Sisters getting nominated, you still do see some signs of life that people are watching things or that some consensus is bubbling up. But broadly, it is a very weird moment that there is more TV than ever, but we are hyper focused only on some of it in the rest of it is just chaff. Yeah, and it might be that there's so much that the voting is getting widely dispersed and you have these two sensations in White Lotus in succession, and that's why they hoover up. I mean, look, the Emmys have always been monopolized.

You know, obviously, modern family is like a historic run of wins. I think, you know, Mad Men obviously racked up a bunch, right? Like, you know. Eventually, yeah. Eventually, West Wing was like won so many Emmys that the cast, like, started talking about not going because it was just like. oh, we're going to sweep the Emmys again. Like, it's definitely like one of the stranger shows.

And I think also it throws people off a little bit the way that they are still on the fall spring. That's how they, like the show window for nominations is essentially still May to May. And, you know, most people don't view the TV season in that kind of way. A couple questions for you about perceived snubs or if you think they're legitimate snubs or surprises, let's say. Like for me, to keep it in FX for a second. What we do in the shadows consistently, just a very funny comedy, did get nominated for two seasons, its first two seasons did not get nominated,

or second and third, I guess, did not get nominated for this past season, maybe just because there wasn't room because everyone was laughing at Barry, to your point. Atlanta. I was surprised. Shut out. Yeah.

All of it. Two seasons worth. Yeah. Shut out. Part of the reason for that might be that there were two seasons worth. Yeah. And the third season was definitely, like, a challenge, I think, for the average viewer.

We should say that Donald Glover was not shut out because he had a story by credit on Swarm, I think, which was nominated in writing. I'd also would love to give you an opportunity to talk about the Sheridan piece that the man most responsible for popular television. A whole girl dinner over there, cracking up at your little Taylor Sheridan dig. Go ahead. Get it off your chest because it's almost lionist season. I'm just saying he's responsible for television that America really, really likes. Yes. And I think it got like some special effects. There's a very funny Yellowstone joke in the new Justified coming up. Oh, yeah? I'm excited about that.

But he gets shut out. All the shows get shut out, including like Helen Mirren and Harrison Ford get shut out. I was pretty surprised that nothing from 1923, that 1923 did not get recognized. Those shows are also like pretty big hits. Yes. I don't know if you've been following the way they have basically been writing 1883 throughout this summer where they keep airing it in marathons on Paramount Network. Yeah, they moved it from the streamer to the network

where it just continues to repugue dividends. Yeah. So, yeah, I'm very surprised, although I do get the impression that he is sort of a man apart when it comes to hashtag this town. That's exactly it. I mean, I think we are now past the point.

I could be 100% wrong about this, but my sense is we are past the point where there's like coastal distaste for these shows. I mean, most people that I know in hashtag this town, watch some of his shows and enjoy them. Most be one person in this room. Yeah. Kaya, Tulsa Queen herself.

So I don't think it's that. I do think it's that he is essentially an industry unto himself and does not, and I'm not saying this to suggest he does anything untoward or wrong. He does not play ball. And he does not engage with any part of the apparatus that works here. One other thing I would just mention briefly

as an observation about all the nominations that we can get into full circle in a second. is just that I do not think the crashing everything in before the Emmy's deadline is working. You look around and notice things like and did the Great get nominated at all? I don't think so.

I think it didn't this year, which is a surprise. It had been. You're right. And they crashed that in. Literally, as I was saying that, I had another show that was an example and I forgot.

Because there are too many. No, it was just another one of these things where it's just like, oh, you're trying to rush this thing to air. Elizabeth Olson is another example of somebody. that's a show that kind of, I feel like was very much made to get awards notoriety. Yes. And yeah.

It doesn't, some of the old calculus just doesn't work anymore. Like HBO green lighting the, you know, well-covered terrain. Candy had already come out. But they get a star, they get David Kelly, Peter Pott all together. Now, this is a cynical framing of it because I think that the people at HBO were like, we believed in this project and the creative spin on it. Yes. And that's all true.

But they also, to your point, rushed it into production. Yeah, well, it's also just like way in air. You know, and making sure everything, all this stuff gets up at the last second before. And then we all sort through it. And it just doesn't seem like that's an effective way to drill this into people. The other thing that I wonder is the White Lotus thing is a little strange because it is clearly an ongoing series. And they're making season three in Asia and at least one returning cast member, Natasha Roth. I believe they moved to, it's, I saw a note in all the, the things about like productions that were being paused or moved or shut down, that they are shooting it in Thailand.

Yeah, I think that's been announced. So it's not Japan? No. Okay. But that said, like, I don't think Megan Fahey and Sabrina and Pachitori are coming back necessarily, or at least coming back in season three. And it is interesting that you could make, some might argue that you can do more with a limited arc. Right.

You have more opportunity to do a lot of big, broad things if you really, I mean, they're only doing one season, but they're being put up against people who have been doing steady work. Like Sarah Goldberg from Barry's would have been in a different. category. Yes. But she has been consistently amazing year to year. She was not nominated this year. So that's not a good one-to-one, I imagine.

And this year, actually, Ray Seahorn finally was nominated for Better Call Saul, which is a good thing. But I think there might be some actor quibbling about those sorts of things. But they were all good. So it's hard to argue. Does Andor have a chance? No. Okay. But And Andrew got nominated.

And our guy, Tony, did not get nominated. Only Bo Willemann got nominated for writing. which is funny, but Bandar got nominated. That's important to me. It's great. When they bring it back and they can say

the Emmy nominated series returns. Yes, and they should and I hope they look at why it was good. Yeah. And make more of the things like that. That's my advice, Hollywood.

Briefly before we get out of here. Oh yeah, we're not really... So we like hijack, but we're not going to do more today. I think we can do three episodes of hijack again,

then we'll do like a check-in. I'll do three episodes of hijack this afternoon. And three episodes of drops of God, which I really like. The fourth one just came out. We're right about to get into a couple of really important shows coming out,

though. We've got Full Circle from HBO, Max, which is the new show from Steen Soberg. That's coming out tonight, two episodes, I believe, are being released tonight. And then next week is justified City Prime Evil based on the Elmore Leonard novel, bringing the Raylan Givens character back, but putting him in an entirely different setting outside of Harlan and putting him in Detroit. Andy and I have both read that book. it's pretty ridiculously awesome.

I don't know if the embargo is lifted or whatever, but I'm happy. I'll put it that way. I think that's important. Boyd Holbrook plays the villain in this show. I didn't shout Boyd Holbrook in Dial of Destiny. He was real good. Yeah, he was really good in Dalai of Destiny. So full circle, rocks.

It's so good. And I just wanted to take a second to talk about Steven Soberg before we get into the show itself. Yeah, and by the way, we're going to talk about the show in a kind of a preview capacity to encourage you to watch it.

Yeah. We're not really going to spoil things. I don't know if it matters if we do, but yes, go for it. We could just set it up in the most broad, the broadest of strokes, but Stephen Soderberg has been on a decade-plus run since his fake retirement of making some of the most probing and insightful and confrontational and transgressive art about class and race in this country, and no one talks about it.

Or not no one talks about it, but it's just kind of flying under the radar. from high flying bird, no sudden move to this. To laundromat. He routinely confronts like real shit that is affecting real people in the world in a wildly creative way. His style is now like almost indescribably his own, both from the lighting to the fact that he is essentially a self-contained industry himself where he's like shooting and editing the day of... He's doing the camera operating. He's editing it in the car and the way home. from set that day.

And it's just, it's really something to behold to see this body of work. I think when you see any one piece of Steven Soberg stuff over the last 10 years, you would be forgiven if you're like, that's,

that seemed a little bit slight or there seemed to be something maybe, there was just not enough sweat expelled over it because it just doesn't, it feels like he has gotten so good at making the movies and the shows that he wants to make. And some of them are not as successful as others.

Like, Mosaic I did not think was like as, I agree. Successful. And I think it was made as an experiment in the first place. But I would take the best work that he has done and put it up against anybody else's last decade. And most people would look at this as a weird decade for him. You know, he has had times where he has been at the center of the culture when he was making Oceans 11 and Aaron Brockovich and traffic. In the previous decade.

Yeah. And now he's kind of a little bit off on a margin and he's finding different ways to express himself. And, you know, you talked about when you were talking about Dial of Destiny and like the Necrotic corpse of culture. This is the person who is just like gives me, makes me want to wake up in the morning. Me too. And I think he,

it's not fair to say more people should or could be like him. He is kind of one to one because he has won Oscars. He has played by the rules back when there were a different set of rules. And he is just uniquely motivated and talented. But what the career that he's crafting for himself is kind of inspiring. Because you could, there are so many other versions of talented filmmaking where like a Todd Field or something who struggles.

who makes commercials so he can support his life and then struggles for over a decade to make a statement movie and to make something as worthwhile in my mind as tar. There are countless dozens, hundreds of filmmakers who play ball to varying degrees and do their time in the franchise trenches or in the MCU or whatever

and one for them, one for me, or try to make that work. And I totally understand why anyone would do that. Soderberg is just so ravenous and so interested in people and life and moving and seeing, things and looking deeper and going, but you can't look at one project

on its own. You have to look at it, I think, as what you're suggesting, as part of a larger... A body of work. I forgot to mention Kimmy, which came out last year on Max and starred Zoe Kravitz, and is basically like a Hitchcock COVID thriller, but is also about,

I think, being alive in in like capitalism. And then also let them all talk, which is this beautifully observed chamber piece set on a cruise line with Merrill Street and Candace Bergen and Lucas Hedges, and it's just incredible. And the thing about Full Circle, like, I feel like I was trying to scan, like, what some of

the early reaction to it is, and it's a little bit, can be a little bit confusing in its plot. It can be a little digressive. There are aspects of it that maybe don't work or don't sing, at least in the early going. But I think you've got to throw that away and be like, I'm engaging with something here. I'm engaging with Steven Soderberg, a filmmaker, and Ed Solomon, a veteran screenwriter, who's done everything from Bill and Ted to no son move. He did no son move. More recent things with Soderberg.

And they're interested in things. And that's something that is so missing, I think, from a lot of the culture that we're receiving these days. So this is a kidnapping, interconnected crime story. Broadly, like you could say, I don't think it's based on, but if you've seen the Akira Kurosawa film High and Low, it is not unlike that sort of setup, where there is a kidnapping of a well-to-do family.

family's child, and then everything kind of spins out from there. Now, you could just be like, Stephen Soderberg could probably make a great two-hour movie that is essentially high and low. But him being Steven Soderberg and him playing within the sandbox that Max has given him and whatever, it's a six-episode show, he is going to go, first of all, it's just entirely on location. And he's running around New York City running and gunning. I don't think he shoots with an iPhone anymore.

But it feels like when you get into some of the locations that he is in. that it's just him in there with an iPhone. So it feels real and it feels unlike any other show like that. It's not Vancouver as New York. It's not Toronto as New York. It's not Atlanta as New York. It is shot in New York. And then it brings in, it's like this great kind of head fake

because I think if you just watch the trailers, you think that this is a show about Claire Danes and Timothy Oliphant and Dennis Quaid and some secrets that they have between each other. But then there's this whole other thing. like, honestly, CCH Pounder might be the star of the show as this essentially matriarchal crime lord of a Guyanese immigrant family slash underworld who is trying to correct a decades long, basically run of bad luck and slights against her family by doing,

by being involved in this kidnapping. I don't want to give away too much. But that's essentially, you can get that from the trailer. But to your point, there are pieces here that are familiar in terms of storytelling in terms of a Kurosawa film that has been remade and reimagined multiple times. One of the major differences here is that they looked at the game board and they're like, we're not going to play with the same pieces. We're going to talk about Guyana and we're going to talk about an immigrant community in parts of Brooklyn that we as audience members are not that familiar with and have not seen before. We are going to talk about celebrity chefdom. Yeah.

And we're going to let Dennis Quay plays like a Mario Baton. Holly, Rick Bayless kind of like, yeah. With a ponytail. And he's just like, Dennis Quaid's great. And it's always. And now it's like, okay, now you can act. Like, let's go for it. You're not going to be the matinee idol in this.

You're an older guy and you can have some, you can have some fun. Zazee Beetz, whom I love always, is the quote unquote, she's Humphrey Bogart. Cop character, detective. But she's a postal inspector. And her boss is Jim Gaffigan. Yeah. And Jim Gaffigan has one scene in the pilot where he just eats a traitor Joe's burrito.

And then like kind of. belittles her? Yeah. It's awesome. The show is alive. It's alive with interest and curiosity and who knows what it's going to end up being or even if it's going to all come together, but sometimes it's not about that. There's also at the center of the series is a performance from Claire Daines that is the first time and a long time that she has not played somebody who's pushed to like the very extremes of like behavior or as in Fleischman or Homeland or Homeland. Right. And so it's been a minute since she's played somebody who obviously has a lot of secrets herself, but is essentially like a normie going through like everyday life.

So we should also shout out Gerald Jerome, who's having a hell of a year. Holy shit. What's up with that guy? Like he's just like, he's in I am Virgo. Yeah, we have not talked about I'm a Virgo yet, which we both started to check out and both really, we have a lot of time for it. We're going to watch more.

I'm really interested in it. That's the Boots Riley show that's on Amazon. Drell Jerome is the star of that as a giant. Yes. Then he is essentially the like the wild card kid who wants to be more than what he is in the crime family. He's also in Cross the Spider-Verse. I don't know if you knew that.

I just feel like contractually obligated to point that out. So he's having a great year. He's having a fantastic. I mean, I cannot recommend this show more highly. It's got two episodes going up tonight on Thursday on Max. I really hope people check it out. It's, I can, Imagine people watching and being like, this is weird, or like, what's the deal of this show?

The deal of this show is it's being made by an individual artist with a unique point of view. And that's what happens sometimes is like it's complicated and it's funny in places you weren't expecting and it's sad in places you weren't expecting. And it's messy. Yeah. And it's also a very dense crime story. So I think you and I are pretty used to those. And you'd be like, oh, wow. So we're going to do insurance scams now.

Okay. And keep going and going and going. But stick with it. It's really awesome. But I think just to bring things, if I may, full circle, this is an antidote to some of the stuff we were talking about at the beginning. It's not a perfect one-to-one. It's not cause and effect. But I am not as despairing as I may have seemed walking out, blinking into the harsh sunlight, feeling like these really are end times for the American experiment like I was yesterday. Good things can still happen.

I would just like to see a playing field where these good things can become the norm. Postal inspectors as you beat slither eating a Giro outside of Washington Square Park. I would, but also, I would like James Mangold and the Butterworth to make a movie they want to make. Yeah. So that's the America I believe in, all right? Will Bob Eiger give it to us?

I don't know. Will Ron and Casey DeSantis give us to us? But for that, you'll have to wait until Monday show. Thanks to Kai McMullen for producing us. I feel like this show may have been three hours, but, you know, we've got to get the people what they want. And also, I don't think people realize that for all of the hours we've been doing this podcast, you've just been locked in eye contact.

Have I even doing that? Just focused, because this is when we do our best work. Oh, well, I'm not looking at Twitter while I talk to you. Is that because you've moved to threads? Thanks, Kaya. Thank you to everybody for listening.