The Watch - Second-Season Genius From ‘Barry’ and ‘Fleabag’ | The Watch

Episode Date: May 31, 2019

Andy gives a ‘Briarpatch’ update as the show wraps up writing and gets ready to move into production (5:13). The second season of ‘Barry’ toed the line between comedy and darkness brilliantly (22:14), and ‘Fleabag’ Season 2 will likely be the most impressive show you see on TV this year (33:55). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Acorn TV. Acorn TV is your home for streaming British crime dramas and mysteries. It is the only place you can catch up and stream the newest season of the UK hit series Line of Duties, starring Stephen Graham. It's a cat and mouse thriller from the creator of Bodyguard that takes a probing look into police corruption. Watch the first episode of season one for free at acorn.tv slash watch and start a free 30-day trial of Acorn TV with the Code Watch. I need supports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now.

Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line, no doubt making a funny face at the camera. It's Andy Greenwald! No, my guy, here's where I am with the fourth wall right now. I see it watching me and I just pushed it away like I'm in bed with a priest. Is that a spoiler?

I don't think so. Andy and I are talking about Fleabagg season two. this episode, but we'll talk about a couple of other things to start with. If you have not watched Fleabag Season 2, you can kind of like, we're going to spoil away. So I would basically take the second half of this podcast, or however long it is, we talk, and just listen to it, you know, then. Chris, also, I'm breaking news on this podcast. If you are listening to us in early May, are you in luck? Because I just finished Barry season two. Oh, man. Okay, let's talk about Barry, too. You may have covered it extensively with your much more prepared codery of guess,

but what I'm saying is, I'm right here. I feel like Fennessee and Herman and I at various points talked about it, but we didn't, I don't think I talked about the very end of Barry. Well, obviously that happened during Thrones. So let's start to get into some of this stuff. At first, I just want to tell you that if I sound a little bit different, it's because I just tried to squeeze in a salad over at sweet greens. Okay. Sometimes a lot. lines a little long. So it's like, it's always Gamble. When they switched the menu today, so they've gone over to summer, the summer menu,

which is, you know, it's how I mark time. Is this SpawnCon right now? No. Are we sponsored by? Here's what I want to do, though. I'm dealing with a lot right now because, you know, they got rid of the Green Goddess Ranch, which is how I usually dress up my salads. But they

got rid of it, but my guy behind the counter was like, I have three left over. Like, what? Go cups of ranch. And I was like, like, dude, just actually just like top me off with that. Just all the ranch you got, just put it in the salad. And I have to admit, it's a sake salad. Even Kai remarked from a distance, that looks like a wet salad.

Can I ask you another question? And maybe this isn't the best thing to be doing live on Mike, but are we sure that their proprietary ranch is shelf stable? I mean, there's probably a reason it was shuffling off the menu today. No, it's because of the farmer's market dictates that it's no longer Green Goddess ranch season. I think the Department of Health may have dictated. Well, not everybody can have like such exotic lunch tastes as you, you know? Andy, Andy's office has like incredible lunch gets. Yeah, we do okay. We do okay. You know, they make, they all make fun of me, though, because lunch comes and I say,

I don't think I want this, then I make a sad sandwich. Why not? Don't you order it the night before? That's the problem. So this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, Thanks for tuning into America's number one lunch podcast. By the way, I'm sure we're not even top 10 lunch podcasts, but we could get there. One of the things that I instituted in the Breyer Patch Writers' Room, which is ending tomorrow, by the way, all the weepyface emojis, was that in my previous experience in rooms, lunch ordering and the mystery of lunch ordering and the deciding on the restaurant and then the dithering over the choices and then the dragging everyone else for their choices, that took up at least half of the day, if not the entire morning. So I instituted a policy of everyone orders the night before, which has worked great. There's only one problem. You instituted that policy?

Like you made that policy? Yes. Yeah, that's our office policy. You just came through like Manuchin and you were like, I have a new policy here? You and my older daughter have the same response when they hear that I'm in charge of anything. Like both of you respond like Jason Bateman and arrest of development. You're like, her? Are we sure?

Anyway, the danger of the pre-morning or pre-lunchtime order, like the pre-bedtime, is that when you get the menu fired up on your MacBook or whatever you may be using, you've probably just had some dinner. Maybe you've had after dinner. Maybe you've had a cheese plate. I don't know your life. But the big point is you are not thinking realistically. You are not thinking that at 1230 tomorrow you may be shaky. You may need like a maybe you just need a chicken sandwich. At that moment in time, you're like, I'll be fine with an arugula salad.

that's when you make mistakes. And that mistake results in deep sadness. That's when you wind up with past due date ranch dressing all over some spinach. Yeah, no, look, it's a slippery slope. And I realized somehow we ended up at the same part of that story, just covered an expired, expired dairy. I thought maybe we could give the listeners a little bit of a peep behind the curtain since you are about to begin production on the show,

which I think is like just obviously another small chapter in this long story that is in and of itself a dream come true, but you guys are writing up, you're finishing up the writing of it. I'm being brought in, do a page one rewrite. Yes. It's amazing that we're getting along. Make sure I tie Briar Patch into the extended bumblebee universe. Yeah.

That was a weird last minute studio request, but I do think it's possible. Look, I do think it's possible. We hadn't established John Cena as anything in our show, so I think it's doable. And you went down to Albuquerque. week to kind of check out the set. So tell me how things are going. Things are going great. Thanks for asking. Writers Remends tomorrow. We're in good shape with the scripts. Still some more to do, but everybody seems happy. That's been really fun, and the writers have been a total dream. Going down to Albuquerque is funny because, you know, this is a show that I thought...

You're the first person to find it funny. Well, listen, here's the thing. There's something about this that is perpetually surreal, which is that, you know, a couple years ago, I thought it would be fun to do this loose adaptation of a book that I liked. And the next thing I know, fast forward a couple years, there's a thriving corporation, basically, in Albuquerque right now, where they've been working for weeks. There's an entire construction mill just detailing an elevator cab for an elevator that I asked to have in a hotel hallway that they are also building on our giant airplane hanger-sized stage and all these brilliant and talented people just working on it. And it's an incredible honor.

It's incredibly exciting. It's also pretty funny because they've been there for weeks, and I've been resolutely here just ordering, just making salad mistakes in my normal life. And I flew down there, and the beauty of it was every single person in the office, certainly, potentially in, you know, South Albuquerque total, had a question,

a really important question that I had to answer. And so I found myself... It wasn't just what do you want for lunch tomorrow? I chose a turkey sandwich, by the way. I was on that. I knew I'd be talking all day. I needed that prote. You know what I mean?

But listen, there was a moment yesterday, and I'm really got great people working on this. It's really awesome. But there was a moment yesterday where I was in our prop master's office, and he was giving me four different options of an ice sculpture for a party scene. And I had to choose. Everyone's looking at me. You know, and it's an ice sculpture of an animal. And I won't say more because I don't want to spoil anything. but I turned to the paid, well-paid professionals surrounding me,

and in explaining that I was choosing option one, I looked to them as if I was about to hand over the nuclear codes, and I was like, option two is too llama-like. It's just too llama-like. And here's why people go crazy in this business. It's because they all just nodded sagely. They were like, this guy. How could we ever question him?

Like, this is a leader. That's a great point about the llamas. This guy is decisive. So, you know, it is incredible. It's just also deeply insane because we have been, you know, you came and visited us. You saw us here. We're just dreaming big. No one ever tells you to dream smaller.

And then there are just these dedicated craftsmen who have to make our nonsense a reality and find the place that looks like the place that we rode and stage it and close off the street and get the ice sculptures. And, you know, it's humbling, honestly. But it is, it's also exciting. And I've been talking to the actors, I've been seeing their fittings. We've got some cast stuff to announce soon that I'm thrilled about. It's fun, man. And you're going to come visit, right?

We're going to record live from the stage? Well, I'll be down there with John Cena, uh, filming all the alternative endings for episodes. Is he, is he like a process guy? Does he like to get, you know, show up early? He and I are just going to move into a trailer together and just kind of work through the material line by line. Really unpack the script, you know? How do you do method?

Like, if you cast a method actor in a Transformers film, where your part is a guy who lives in a world where there are fucking Transformers, like, how do you method that for a couple weeks? Like, if Daniel DeLewis was in one of those movies,

what would his day be? You know, it's funny you should say that because I was looking at, like, the list of movies that are coming out. I can't even remember. I think it's next year they were doing some, one of the studios was maneuvering some stuff around.

And they were saying that they were, like, making room for the snake guy's movie, the G. I Joe Snake Guys movie. Oh, got to make room for that. And I was like, I don't even know who's playing Snake Guys because I think Joseph Gordon Levitt played him in one of those movies, but I don't even know. He was somebody, right? You're not helping me. But the... You're asking the wrong, yeah. But the, I was thinking about how funny it would be if at the end of the Snake Guys movie,

he took his mask off and it was Daniel Day Lewis and then Daniel Day Lewis was like, I retire. And so, yeah, I would love to find out how DDL would prepare to play a like Assassin's Creed, you know, like how he would do one of those roles? And he was like, well, I have to go back to medieval Rome to train to be an assassin. But he would also have to learn parkour and like learn how to deploy multiple daggers while balletically leaping off of roofs, right? Like that's my understanding of what that franchise is. So it's essentially he would have to be Keanu Reeves. Yeah. So one other thing before we move on to the other TV, because we haven't spoken in a minute into microphones. And I just, I had to come clean about something, which is,

you know, every few weeks or so, there's a new Star Wars trailer or something. And I like to come on here in a, hopefully, a very polite and respectful and loving way, basically be like, let's all relax. We still have our action figures and our addicts. Like, there's no reason to lose it over this latest iteration of, you know, seeing the Knights of the Old Republic or whatever, right? Like, hopefully in a respectful way, I am, um, skeptical of fan boy culture. Then, last week, there was a trailer released for the CBS All Access series Star Trek Picard.

Uh-huh. And I was like literally buying convention tickets. Are you fucking serious? Really? I got, I think that, that shit got me. Are you a next generation fan? Listen. Listen, not only do I love next gen.

Not only do I love that character, the thing, this is, this is, this is, this is, This is such a telling on myself, but listen, I'm about to go to the desert for four months. So I feel like this is my last will and testament. Let it be. Not only did I love Picard, you never, did you ever watch that show? Yeah, like on syndication sometimes, yeah. This is the most on-brand thing maybe I've ever said into this microphone. But like the finale of that show, sorry, spoilers of a 25-year-old show, jumps around in time, you know, and it shows Jean-Luc. And it shows John Luke having returned to Earth.

and he's working at a humbled vineyard in Bordeaux. I think I remember that. And this trailer is pure Bordeaux porn. It's just old Patrick Stewart just running his hands through the terroir producing the vintage of like 2473. Does he go back into space? Frankly, I hope not. What if this show was just... You want sideways with John Luke Picard?

I just, no, I just want wine show with John Luke Picard. That was, for those who don't know, that was when Matthew Rees and Matthew Good just drank wine on camera. Like, I don't need any space here. I would like him to be just checking the bricks level of the harvest and someone being like, yo, Admiral, the Vulcans are at it again. He'll be like, look, I'd love to help you, but phloxera is running rampant again in 2473. These vines are sick. I loved it.

I pure loved it. Because I thought you were going to say, like, I'm trying to keep the inner fanboy quiet and tell everybody to temper expectations. Yeah. But that you were moving into Star Wars Galaxy's Edge. No, listen, what I'm most afraid of in admitting this is not, you know, the takes on the Internet that maybe I'm a hypocrite or whatever. It's facing me in the future now is that I'm going to have to learn how to sign up for CBS All Access. And I honestly can't even begin to imagine. we have a promo code for that.

Look, hook me up. But let's just wait till that Picard, that new Picard drop happens. Because that's, that's me. That's my good fight. Well, you get caught up on the good fight. I'm really, Gallagher, Jason Gallagher, who works here and does a lot of our amazing ring original videos.

The Emmy Award winning Jason Gallagher. Emmy award winning Jason Gallagher, along with Jason Concepcio and the producers of desktop, obviously. Gallagher's taking his kid to Galaxy's Edge on Friday for, like, opening day. Wow. Yeah. And I was like, you know what's weird is that for all the attractions that they have there,

like you can walk through the Millennium Falcon and interact with stormtroopers and stuff, I really want to try the blue milk. I've wanted to know what that tasted like since I saw a new hope for the first time. So if they have that, what do they have it, on tap next to the turkey legs? I don't know. I don't know. You know me. I'm the guy who likes to go out there and try perhaps past due date ranch.

So I don't know what I expect from blue milk. But yeah, like they have the full Star Wars menu and beverage menu. And even like the beers and sodas you get are shaped like little droids. Listen, there are two things at my advanced age and at where I am in life that shock me. Why do you keep talking about yourself like your B. Arthur? Listen to me. Listen to me. I'm not B. Arthur. I'm Estelle Getty in the early seasons when she was actually younger than everyone else, but wore old makeup. Okay. That's me.

Here's what astounds me when I meet other adults. These are two things that you can tell me as a fellow adult that will just leave my jaw on the floor. One is that you stay awake by choice past 11 p.m. That is insane to me. Two, that you are up on theme parks. Well, like, there are someone here in my writer's room, whom I adore, whom I love working with, who does not have children, certainly not Jason Gallagher, kids age or doesn't have kids, but was prepping us for this Star Wars theme park, was aware of it,

was tracking it, and was saying that if I wanted to take my kids to Disney, I should do it any day before this opening date, because otherwise it will be impossible for the next three years. That's right. Greenwald, I've done some instant research, so I have answers to all your questions. Wait, be honest. Did you actually use that time when I was talking about things that frighten and confuse me to Google, or were you eating more salad? No. So the blue milk at Star Wars Galaxy's Edge is available at the milk stand. And blue milk costs cost $8 a glass.

And the ingredients are coconut and rice milk with dragon fruit, pineapple, lime, and watermelon flavoring. I don't like the sound of any of this. Am I wrong? I don't know, but there's a dude in a picture that goes along with this who's wearing a long-sleeve Stormtrooper t-shirt, and he looks like Ansel Al Gore, and he is fucking crushing this blue milk, and he looks psyched about life. And then other food there includes

Kat Saka's kettle, where you can munch on Outpost Mix, a sweet, savory snack made with popcorn created by Batu Farmer Katzaka, who collects spices from around the galaxy. Is this revenge for me saying I was excited about a Star Trek show? You could also go to Ronto Roasters

that have a bunch of different offerings in the morning, and at night, and you get like a rap there. So that's where, you know, classic Star Wars raps. Also a Nuna Turkey jerky is available, so that looks pretty good. Stop it. Stop it. I mean, I don't know, you want to continue.

Can you drink alcohol? Docking Bay 7th? Yeah, you can. There's like a pleasure island within it, I think. A pleasure island within... Galaxy's Edge. Star Wars World? Is there a Moss Isley canteen? I, hold on. I'm scrolling. Keep vamping.

Are you going? No, I'm... Are you going. I would. I would definitely go I would definitely go Kaya does this sound interesting to you Oh I've been texting Nick about this

What? Have you really? Yes I sent him several videos yesterday Of people at Galaxy's Ed and I was like let's go Okay wait I found the booze one I hope people find this interesting We're just we're just kind of killing time before we talk about Fleabag But drinking at Galaxy's Edge Shout to slashfilm.com Who's got all the all the jams here

Rex and Oga. Oga is the proprietary. I got it. This isn't good content. Listen, here's the good content. Can we have Gallagher on to talk about it? Yeah, we can get him on. Well, you're not going to be here. I'll have him on.

I can call in for this. I want to know. You can get a... I managed to limit the Star Wars content in my household, and that's about to end. So I need to be up on this. You can get a cliff dweller for $32 with a porg souvenir mug,

and it's citrus juices, coconut, hibiscus, grenadine, and seagram's ginger ale. Just, just bathe me in it. Sounds great. All right. All right. We're going to,

we're on this story, people. I don't want anyone to think that there's a dearth of news and events in the culture with Thrones done. Okay, so let's take a quick break, hear from our sponsors, come back,

and we're going to talk about Fleabag and Barry. Today's episode of the watch is brought to you by Luminary. If you were a movie buff, which I like to consider myself a movie buff. And if you were a Bill Simmons fan, and I love Bill Simmons, then you have to listen to his new podcast called The Rewatchables 1999, which is only available on Luminary. I appear on very many of these episodes, but I also am a huge fan of just listening to them. I listen to the first episode.

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Luminary.com slash watch. Cancel any time turns apply. Today's episode of the watch is brought to you by Just Crack and Egg. Are you wanting to put the heat back into your relationship with breakfast? A hot breakfast can often seem like too much work, but not when you head over to the egg aisle and pick up Just Crack an Egg. Just Crack an Egg is a hot, fluffy breakfast scramble that'll have you falling in love with hot breakfast all over again. Simply crack a fresh egg over their hearty breakfast fixings, then stir, microwave, and reignite your love of breakfast in less than two minutes. Something else you'll love about Just Crack an Egg, it has no artificial flavors, dyes, or preservatives.

Plus, it comes in seven different varieties, including Veggie, Denver, Southwest-style protein-packed and All-American. I happen to love the protein-packed one, but you can't go away. wrong with any of these flavors, don't wait for the weekend to add a little hot, hearty breakfast love to your AM. It's time to run with your arms wide open to the egg aisle and take breakfast back with just crack an egg. Greenwald, we are back. What would you like to talk about first? Because I feel like these are both really interesting shows. They don't have a ton to do with each other other than maybe making, I don't know, I don't say unlikeable, but complicated protagonists.

They both have complicated protagonists trying to do good in the world, I think. But Fleabag is certainly more fresh for me, but we can talk about whichever one you want to talk about first. Here's the way I think we should do it. I think we should just touch briefly on Barry just to sort of discuss it in its place in the firmament what changed in the second season.

Because other than the fact that I think both shows are special because they have very, very, very, very firm senses of who and what they are. Yes. I think that's what sets them apart. I think that is what links them. Other than that, there's not much to talk about because I think Barry had an excellent second season.

I think it's one of the strongest shows on TV. But I think Fleabag is a transcendent experience that honestly makes me want to quit what I'm trying to do, but also feel very good about that decision because that show exists in the world. So let's start with the one that doesn't make me feel that way, but inspires me and is incredible, which was Barry. Yeah.

And, you know, there's some, thing, I just wanted to start from that point, which is a little bit abstract, but I think you understand what I mean, which is to say that if we were, if we ever had concerns about the show, mild criticisms, concerns that we expressed, if we were concerned trolling it even, it was over the subject of its tone and balancing the tone between the pretty broad comedy that's in characters like Noho Hank and sometimes, you know, Barry's reactions or Bill Hater's performance with the very serious life and death consequences of the action surrounding it. And I'm done with that particular lane of concern because this show knows what it is. We don't need to

worry about its line because it knows its line. And in the second season, it juggled it expertly. With a degree of pathos and empathy and curiosity about emotional experience that really floored me, honestly, because if you pulled away and just looked at some of the things this show chose to tackle in its second season, from abusive relationships or why people stay in them, to out and out war crimes, that any show, comedy or drama, would struggle with just one of those topics. And I wouldn't pretend to say that this was a documentary

or a harrowing exactly pulled from one person's life exemplar of truth-telling. But I thought that the show handled both topics with such curiosity and empathy and honestly, grace, even though it's very much a comedy, I was truly, truly impressed by it. Yeah, I think that Your point is really well taken

because both of these shows, but for Barry specifically, this season, I thought, became its own reference point. Like, even though Hader obviously is drawing from a lot of cinematic influences, and even though you can see different things pop up in different episodes, and he's working with Hero Moray

and other filmmakers around in Alec Berg and everybody else on the show on creating something like this, it sort of found, its own voice and your point about the different kind of outposts of the show Noho Hank Fuchs, the acting class with Kusano even though each one of those sort of worlds

is a little bit tonally distinct from the other I felt like one of the brilliant parts about this season was the way in which those things not only started to overlap but also how you realize that and I think Barry realized that he was the contaminator in those worlds Like he was the consistent thing that was making each one of the little worlds that he occupied violent and angstrand and unpredictable and chaotic.

And I think he finally kind of came to that conclusion a little bit towards the end of the season. So the question of is Barry a good or bad man or can a bad man become a good man is, well, that's just television since 2001 basically. but the idea that can you as a person exist in these highly compartmentalized worlds that you're trying to pretend like you're different people to different people? What happens when you're the consistent thing that runs through it and you start bringing your own poison basically into each one of those worlds? I thought that was so interesting to watch this year. Yeah, I think that, again, it speaks to the strong grasp that Hayterberg have on the character

where they didn't dither. You know, they have affection for the character. They obviously like writing the character and exploring him, but they don't have any illusions about him either. There is no sentimentality, no desire to clean him up, which I think, you know, can be, especially when you're writing something and you love that thing, you want to sort of protect it or show everyone why you love it by making it shinier.

And I don't think they have any illusions about that. It's very clear, certainly by the way this season ended, which we won't necessarily split it. I think we can spoil it. I just mean specifically like the last beat. That last beat suggests a show that has a definitely, definitely has a clock. That, you know, they have a sense of how long the story is. Whether it's three seasons or four, it's definitely not more than four. And I wouldn't be surprised if they walked away after three, honestly. That's really impressive. Unsung heroes in it. I mean, Sarah Goldberg's performance the season was phenomenal. That monologue, I mean, there's already been a whole post written about it on Vulture, but like, deservedly so. I had to watch it again to see if there were cuts because it's just dazzling. And that's in the second and last episode. The cinematographer, Paula Wiedobro, is just so, so brilliant. The lighting consistently is so thoughtful and haunting and affecting. Henry Winkler's performance just went to another place and another level, emotionally, anchoring it.

And then ultimately, the fact that the show is so ballsy and fearless about story. And yet it doesn't feel like trickery. I said a few weeks ago when I was in a darker place in plotting my own show that, like, making plans is important. possible in real life for dinner, so why do we think as writers we can come up with clever plans for characters to do? Yeah. Barry's very elegant. It's not actually that complicated how he gets out of certain jams.

No, I mean, it's considered. It's actually, it has that element. I think when the Ronnie Lilly episode with the little kid aired, I noticed this the most about some of the sort of Tarantino feel to it. And typically, like what I said was, you associate Tarantinoism with, you associate Tarantinoism with maybe extreme violence with incredibly literate hyper aware

and snappy dialogue which is like a very that's like at its base level how you might describe Tarantino's style filmmaking Barry seemed to have it with the logic where this guy is not like

yeah you're right it's not Ocean's 11 he's not breaking into the Bellagio he has just got a lot of violence in him and I don't think he particularly cares whether he lives or dies he may care about whether not he gets in trouble, but I don't know if his survival is paramount to him. And so he will

walk into a temple, you know what I mean, and just start shooting people. And morally, we can have that discussion, but you're right, the plotting is like unencumbered by bullshit in a real way. Yeah, and just, it's want to use that word again, elegant. Like, pushing all the chips into the center of the table and having that fuchs, Cousinocene that's in. the penultimate episode and plays in the finale. And then having, you know, pushing us to an impossible place where we can't imagine anyone getting out of this. And we're imagining all these strange turns that the show might have to do in season

three to handle the fact that it's major, you know, its secondary, second lead is, would be in prison or something. The simplicity of the Chechen pin, it's just, it's just elegant. Because what it does is, is it solves the present problem. But it, but they, but it allows them. the space to then do the harder, emotional, longer-term character story thing, which is the big reveal that ends the season. You know, that's the more interesting story. And having the clean, relatively simple solution to the other one gets us into the notier terrain. I'm just, you know, I'm just

impressed by it. And it's one of the reasons why I think, I think it's doing, I'm sure it's doing well, you know, in ratings, it gets a lot of attention. But you may see it, we certainly saw this at the last Emmys, but I think it'll be even more so this year, why it may be overrepresented at the awards this year, or seemingly surprisingly so, because I do think that all the tradespeople, I guess I want to call it, from directors who see what Hero Moray and Liza Johnson and other people are doing on the show, and Bill Hader himself, to writers, to cinematographers. I think people just admire what a first-class production it seems to be. Yeah, and I think that in the first season, you know it was very obviously a like a high concept show about a hitman who decided to who fell into acting and found himself in this acting uh troop in the certain san fernando valley working with this sort of failed failed actor as their teacher

i think it got much more complex and and probing in this second season and not even to like you know blow it out of proportion but when you think about what uh what kind of united the various storylines that were happening? So you've got the Sally Cousineau area with the acting. You've got the Noho Hank crime, the gangland struggle going on between with him. And then you've got Fuchs. You basically have all these little triangles of people who are pushing and pulling towards

who they think they are versus who they are. Right. And that was very indicative of Sally's plot where she was at first she was like, here's when I told this guy to fuck off. And then it turns out like not only was she this, she had this terrible thing inflicted on her, but she, you know, she couldn't leave this guy, you know,

at least not the way she thought she did. And then it's actually the lie that people want at the end. And in some ways, you know, Kusinov spends the entire season, pretty much catatonic. And then has been kind of telling himself stories about whether he's a father or whether he was, whether what Janus meant to him. And then at the end kind of remembers

what really happens because it takes him a while to remember the Fuchs thing and then Barry and his relationship to his his war crime right and in a way I kind of like it because it's constantly challenging the viewer on their

relationship to Barry as a character you're kind of constantly being here's like an incredibly likable personable charming normal guy in Hater playing a super fucked up killer.

And it doesn't let you off the hook by being like Barry's cool, you know? No, and it did the same thing with a Sally character too. You know, I think that the writing staff took her to the next level this year. You know, and I don't know if it's a question of new people in the room or just, you know,

a little more thought given to her and who she is. But again, it was a calibration issue over, you know, of narcissism versus truth. And you end up with a place, a person who is beautifully complicated and not tip too far in either direction. It was just super impressive. Absolutely.

But we should save some room for what is the most impressive thing you're probably going to see on TV this year. Yeah. I mean, we haven't done this in a really long time, I don't think. Like, we've been very excited about shows. We were very excited about Fossi Verdon. We were very excited about lots of shows. I don't even know if like, and, you know, obviously a long time watched listeners know

that we're not very consistent with our awards to things. Yeah. I don't even think a belt is sufficient for what Fleabag season does. to is. I would give Fleabag Season 2 a small brass bust stolen from the home of someone's parents in London.

So let's set the stage a little bit. Flea Back season 1 is brilliant. It's available on Amazon. Hopefully many people watch it. I just want to say I found that tough sledding at times. Okay. Yeah. I was like into it. I clearly had a very, very sharp voice. Thought she was very

funny. I got a little tired of of the turning to the camera stuff and like some of the gimmicks within the show I thought it was effective and I certainly found it digestible since very short episodes but I was like

I get it and I like it but I don't love it okay and that's changed for you in season two yeah yeah yeah this is the best thing I've seen all year like if something's better than this it will be like one of the best shows of all time you know it is

jaw-dropping because I thought season one was was pretty amazing and I think you know we were talking about this and we were talking about season one of killing Eve. I think Phoebe Wallerbridge is probably the best writer for the screen, any screen living. Like her words don't sound like anybody else's. They go places no one else's go. They dance. They're electric. They're thrilling. You know, it's just it's just a joy. And I will say also when combined with Harry Bradbears direction, worked with her on the first three killing eaves, flea back season one and flea back season two. It's just an incredible creative partnership. But there's something about this second season, and we can get into it.

We can talk about Andrew Scott's performance as the hot priest. We can talk about every other actor, quite honestly, from Kristen Scott Thomas, who makes an incredible guest turn to the brilliant actors that fill out the members of her family. But there's something larger at play here, which is to take something that was good, to look at it critically, but lovingly from all angles, as Phoebe Waller Bridge probably did. And truly lovingly, because it started as a one-woman show that she did at the Edinburgh Festival, and now she's been performing again in London and in New York, and to say, here's what I was doing then, here's what this could be now. And here's the ways that I can directly engage with and comment on what I thought I was doing

and reorient you as to what the story really was. Because a lot of the commentary about Fleabag season one was about, you know, she's sort of, she's hiding her grief, she's hiring her shame, her embarrassment, she's hiding them in drink and in sex. And a lot of the attention sort of, it got wonderful praise, but, you know, people were talking about, oh, she's so frank. It's kind of like a, you know, maybe in the same way people talked about girls or something like that. What she was making, as it turns out, was step one of a now two parks. There's no reason to ever have any others show about how. we live with ourselves and how we can learn to be present and accept things and quite frankly

move on and move on both from a character and an era in her life as a performer and writer but also just move on emotionally and to do that with the funniest writing in set pieces that i can imagine and some of just the hottest chemistry and romance it's i just can't quite put into words i'm so dazzled by it, which is not the place you'd want to be as a critic, podcaster, a commentator, but I'm still wrestling with just how astonishing I found this. And what a true transcendental joy it was to watch it. Yeah, you know, I was trying to think of what shortcut this show took, because it doesn't feel possible that something that's 22 minutes, six times 22 to 27 minutes, should be allowed to feel this significant. I mean, I guess, I guess that's just,

where we are, but it doesn't feel fair. So as we, I finished the season last night and I was thinking like, oh, what did she do? Not that it cut a corner, but what like a market inefficiency is she exploiting or is she not doing? So I'm like, okay, like maybe it's like that it's not very densely plotted, but it is, it is quite densely plotted. Pretty much every single thing you see has some consequence, you know, even down to Claire and Claire's relationship or sister's relationship. With some, like, comic, this sort of finished businessman that she has.

He's also named Claire. Yeah. Every line has, it's sort of mirror. So even obviously with this like sort of what has been a much talked about closing scene, but that is a idea that gets kicked around throughout the six episodes. Brett Gelman's character, who is really just an antagonist, but actually has a moment of self-executive. actualization that then itself is rejected, which I thought was really well played by the three actors

in that scene. Every single thing that drama and comedy and television and whatever, however, just great writing is present. And it's like, I don't even think it's diet anything. I don't think it's, it's paired down. I don't think it's, it feels maximalist. The London that they live in feels completely realized. Um, I, I have no complaints about this show. And I'll go over. further and say, I'm 41, we're the same age. We've seen a lot of television. We've seen a lot of movies.

We've read a lot of books. I feel like my nerve endings get a little dried up after a while where I'm not kind of like feeling it as much as I'm appreciating it. I was like a fucking mess at the, at the Andrew Scott homily at the wedding. Like am I crazy for saying that? Like I was just like, that's like pretty profound. And just that whole last episode, I was like, Jesus Christ, how is this on television?

I know. For it to work on every level, performance, direction, emotion. Olivia Coleman, who just won an Oscar, is just in the show, just having fun in the background, being outrageous. The thing that I come back to a lot with the way that she writes and performs is that there's like a, there's this vivacious sense of play to it. she's winking and commenting, but really she's smiling. You know, it is not judgy. It is not snarky.

The smile that ends the season and the series is so genuine and heartfelt. And I think about the way that the show takes a fourth wall breaking device that could be an affectation that maybe some people bumped on you included in the first season and actually considers what it is, embraces it, interrogates it, makes it a plot point in a way that is so shocking and staggeringly, honestly, it's just brilliant, is it's inspiring that there are still a way to approach this medium and this storytelling and to communicate the most challenging things to communicate, which are genuine emotion, genuine affection between people, you know, genuine romance, genuine loss, all of those things that we're chasing, to do it

in this package, which we should say again is six episodes of under 30 minutes each. Yeah, you can watch it in a night. You can easily just watch it in a night, or you can do what I did, which is try to stretch it out and make it last for three weeks, basically. Let me talk about that, which is, you know, we've talked about before individually about how it's challenging to find co-watches these days, things that we can watch with our wives that we watch together. Fleaback season one was one of those for me and my wife. We eagerly anticipated this season two. We watched the first two episodes. We were going to do two episodes a night. I think we watched a third the next night and we were going to take a break. I went,

went to bed, woke up around like midnight, the lights were on. And I was like, what's going it? And then I fell back asleep again. And then the next day, I was like, were you up late? Because again, as I said, I don't trust people who stay up past 11, especially who have children who come to wake them up at 5.30. And she was like, oh, yeah, I just, I had some work to do. And I was like, okay, great, no problem. We then watched episode four. We then watched episode five and six. And it was only when I overheard her at a birthday party talking to someone about it that I realized she was so in love with this show. She stayed up to one in the morning finishing it and then watch it again with me.

I cannot stress how rare that is. And let me take it one step further. Do you know what she did to prove her true devotion to the show? What? She Googled actors to learn more about them, which is something that she has never done. Did she pretend like she hadn't watched it when you guys finished it? Yes. So she was like, wow, sick, the fox.

You know how she played? You know, her one error was when the inevitable happens between Fleebag and the priest. I believe she credits ran and she turned to me and I believe she said, I did not think that was going to happen at all. That's like, which the only, I don't know if I've told the story on the podcast before, but the only other time that I know this has happened was that she couldn't wait to see there will be blood, saw it in the theater, and then went with me a few days later on a weekend, I think. And I remember two things about the movie. One, I mean, amazing movie. Two, I was just blindingly hung over when I went to see it. And we're getting to the movie.

You know, it's quite a long movie. And I leaned over at one point. I was like, I think I have to go to the restroom. And she grabbed my arm and she said, this isn't a good place to do that. And I was so hung over. I was like, wow, she must be really keyed into the story of Daniel Plainview. You know, like she must understand the psychology behind what he's doing here. And this next scene with his, I want to say, brother is going to be important.

Maybe she was just trying to save you from the Court Street movie theater bathroom. That would have been worth the stop, but she admitted later that she had seen the film already. So there's no higher praise from my household that I can possibly imagine. Obviously, like, there's not enough that, you know, praise you could kind of heap on what Phoebe Wallerbridge did here, both as a writer and as an actor. Can I take a quick minute for Andrew Scott, though? You need, he deserves all the minutes we can afford to give him. So, you know, obviously most people would probably know him from playing Moriarty in the BBC's version of Sherlock with Cumberbatch. And I thought he was really awesome, even though, like, I still don't really understand what happened to his character in Sherlock, like, on some basic, like, I guess I need to just get the Cliff Notes version.

You know, he comes into this show, sort of, he gets eased in, he's in the dinner scene in the beginning, and their relationship really picks up over the last couple of episodes. and, you know, I think that, I think this had, was it ever officially called Fleabag versus God? I don't, or is that the stage version of it? I thought that that was flying around a little bit. But it's only kind of tangentially about religion per se. I think it's about obviously a search for meaning and a search for purpose in your life, which is obviously what a lot of people look to religion for. But the way that he is the other side of that as somebody who has given up a lot of the sort of more day-to-day pleasures of his life to find that higher purpose.

And she's someone who gives into those urges at the risk of not having any kind of higher purpose and the two people find each other. And the fact that that's happening and they have this chemistry, which is electric, and that you literally are just kind of like, I have this could go any number of ways. where they could be in love, anything could happen. And he doesn't have a name and she doesn't have a name. And the only things you really know about them are these kind of side comments people make

about, you know, things that have happened to them, especially with that character, the priest's character, it's like, obviously it has a problem with alcohol or a relationship with alcohol and is kind of skirts around, like, his biography and whether he gets along with his family or not. And you can kind of just infer a lot of stuff about it.

And, you know, you, I read an interview with him on Vulture where he talked about how whenever you know, whenever we talk about character there's all these questions people have, well, what's the, where do you go to school? And he was like, I didn't even need to know this guy's name like it was really more of like a feel thing.

It was really more of an inhabiting this person. And, you know, I just thought that what they had on screen and what the story that they told together was really, really special. I mean, imagine, I mean, they knew each other. They'd acted together. And so, you know, the best artistic relationships tend to be ones that are, you know, have some history or some foundation beneath them. So I was going to say imagine writing dialogue knowing it's going to be performed that way.

She had that luxury, I think, you know, she wrote this part for him. But it is just a blazing supernova of a performance. And one that much like the show itself, you know, I feel like this gets buried sometimes in the coverage of her because she's so, she can, in all of her writing, she's sort of sassy or body or forthright or whatever, she's deeply empathetic, you know. And so though this priest does things that priests are not supposed to do, quote unquote, the show actually has a fairly respectful stance on who this priest is and what motivates him and where his loyalties lie and what his priorities are.

You know, it's quite affecting. And what he does with it, I don't know. I mean, I will watch this again just because it's a total pleasure, but also just to see a masterclass on what's possible with the person and making a whole person who, as you said, doesn't have a name, just has a title. And yet is one of the most fully realized human beings on television in the last decade. Yeah. Plus, it's super sexy. It's so, the chemistry is so wild and so fun. And again, it's just, I'm noticing on this podcast, I'm, I'm noticing on this podcast,

I'm praising things that are simple, which is probably another time I'm telling on myself about, you know, the struggles of writing TV shows. When you find something that is simple and that is elegant, it's kind of all you need. And so that idea that how do you challenge a character who will say anything and do anything? And it's to have her fall in love with, you know, plausibly the one person in the universe or the one, you know, category of a person that cannot reciprocate. Yeah. At least in the way she wants is so simple and it's so powerful and then it's so expertly explored. I don't even know how I I don't really feel like it's fair to really

compare other TV to it or to compare it to other TV one of the really wonderful one of wonderful things that are happening we talk a lot about what is exhausting or annoying about the constant barrage of content right now and maybe we don't take a minute to just be like holy shit that happened

you know this is this is really cool that something like this got made this is when I think we got really excited about TV about seven or eight years ago during Lost or maybe around the Sopranos. And then when we got like almost hyper-focused on what the machinations were behind giving us what we wanted. And there was that moment, I think, around Breaking Bad and Mad Men that we were like, maybe this is sort of where a lot of the great storytelling of the next 30 or 40 years is

going to happen is on these episodic television shows where the stories that I think used to get told in the theaters and movie theaters in the 70s and some of the really high-minded really well-thought-out drama would be happening on TV. And, you know, I've loved plenty of television shows. And I've probably, like, enjoyed because in just, like, my personal taste, more shows than this.

But when you look at something like this, this really is the fulfillment of that promise. This really is, like, what if you had this brilliant writer and you just let her do what she wanted? And it's pretty fucking amazing when you see it. Yeah, and then, like with Donald Glover on Atlanta, honestly, it's just like,

oh boy, we get to be alive and watch what they're going to do next. That's the best way to end it. Yeah, that's exactly what I would say. And I was thinking of Atlanta season one when I was first watching this. I was like, last time I felt this swept away by a vision was during Atlanta season one, which isn't to say anything about Robin's season. It was just that kind of almost shock and feeling off your square about something. It's a really, really, really cool way to feel. One of the benefits, and I think people who listen to the show,

because they probably are similarly oriented in terms of how much they engage with culture and watch it, is you spend this many hours as probably all of us do staring at the TV and being like, this is a box. And I love this box. And this box gives me things that I like and I recognize them. And it's, I get pleasure. I get inspiration. I get excited, whatever. I get furious. And then every so often someone comes along and it's like, what if it's not a box? What if this was a cube the whole time? Yeah. You're just, you know, you just head explode emoji. This is one of those moments. Yeah. And I hope everybody's join. us on this journey. I know the journey most of you have been on is Chernobyl, which I actually do really want to watch, but the thought of like moving to Albuquerque for four months and beginning my time there by just curling up in a ball watching Chernobyl. Well, there's a lot of really good stuff coming. There's Good Omens and Deadwood come out this weekend. Obviously, Chernobyl is going and Black Mirror is coming back for a few of those episodes. And then Dark is coming back at the end of June. So we have a lot of stuff. And of course, big little lies.

So there's a ton of stuff to talk about. Obviously, Andy is going to be in and out over the course of the next couple of months. But we will be, you'll be hearing from him. So don't worry about it. Unless I start watching too much turnover. In which case, please send help. Okay. Good talk.

Great job. Go watch Fleetback Bergenskis. Talk to you soon, man. Bye, buddy.