The Watch - Sending Off ‘Succession’ With Showrunner Jesse Armstrong | The Watch (Ep. 280)

Episode Date: August 6, 2018

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald unpack the season finale of ‘Succession’ (2:00) before welcoming on its showrunner, Jesse Armstrong, to discuss the joys of creating an entertaining season of television with rich characters (31:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by The Venture Brothers. A brand new season of the critically acclaimed animated series The Venture Brothers is almost here. Featuring Hank, Dean, Rusty, Brock, the Monarch, Dr. Mrs. The Monarch, 21 OSI, the Guild of Calamitous Intent, Billy Quizboy, Pete White, and several other characters you made your own costumes for. Watch Team Venture attempt to save their frozen butts from the icy chill of organized villainy. laugh along as America's favorite family of super scientists collides with the inescapable agents of their own downfall. Learn along with the boys on brand new adventures like college, jobs, dating, and other skills you can't learn in your sleep.

Created and directed by Jackson Public, written and executive produced by Public and Doc Hammer, the Venture Brothers, new episode Sunday at midnight on adult swim, go team venture. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm Editor at The Ringer.com and joining me in the studio, my number one boy. It's Andy Greenwald!

Too soon! Man, Andy, we are here to talk about the finale of Succession, Season 1, and we're also going to be talking with the creator of the show, Jesse Armstrong, in a little bit. So excited. That's really exciting. Let's just jump right into it, man. We gave this show The Belt last week. It retained that.

championship with its finale. I wanted to just say off the top, you know, we did this best TV episodes of the Century Package last week. So obviously, I've been thinking a lot about pilots and finalees and bottle episodes and all the different kinds of ways in which, you know, these inflection points we typically look for for a season.

And I think that there was a lot of pressure on succession as people started getting more and more into it after the first few episodes and it got a lot of fans that caught up with it after those few episodes. and word of mouth started spreading. And so I think that there was a little bit of pressure, even if it was already done, obviously, to see where this show could go

and whether this show could expand, would it contract, would anything, what would be the major turning point? And I have to say that I don't really remember a finale that felt so final and also opened up a world of possibilities like this. It doesn't do something like Lost where it's like there's a hatch.

You know, there's not another company that we get introduced to. They didn't introduce some huge, twist. It just kind of shows the long-term business as usual rat fucking that goes on in that company and in that family

and I couldn't help but think of the, not necessarily like Carrie Bradshaw, I couldn't help but think of the softball game in the beginning. And the boy that Logan Roy they bring on to come play in the softball game and then they pay off to forget

about it. Well, because Roman offered him a million dollars. Yes. And I thought about the way that something that's good can also be absolutely toxic and it really came through

with the Kendall storyline which is obviously the main sort of thrust unless you want to talk about Connor Roy 2020 Alan Ruck has his Hall of Fame reel now when it's time for Cooperstown

and God bless him for that here we go this is what I have to say here we go this is a TV show that is is built for 2018 and beyond. This is a TV show that is built for the short term and the long term. Episodes stood on their own. There were certainly high points within the episodic writing.

This is a season, as you said, that could stand on its own. You could walk away after the end of this, but you don't have to. It is a remarkable, remarkable success story. And I'm ready now to turn the page on making the case that, you know, it was a slow starter that it built after three, four, five episodes. It found its voice. Enough of that. This is a show that is, it is completely rare, days. It didn't used to be rare, but it is rare at this moment in time in television for its curve to mirror Kendall's heart rate after a late night visit with Stewie. It goes up and up and up and up. And I think, you know, I still think Austerlitz was maybe the best episode of the season, but I'm not so sure after this finale. The curve of this season was up and up and triumphant.

And I am, my jaw is on the floor after this episode. This was a phenomenal, phenomenal, phenomenal, episode of television. And I want to talk about the heartbreak of the Kendall scene. I want to talk about the hilarity of Connor. I want to talk about so. Failed rocket launches? That's where I want to start. Because here's what I've been thinking a lot about. You and the rest of the crew at the ring are put together this absolutely spectacular package of the best episodes of the century. I'm sure, you know, people will check it out last week. They'll continue to check it out. I've obviously been thinking a lot about television too and the process of trying to make it. And, and, and, And one of the things I've been thinking a lot about is how serialized television is a cumulative medium.

It's additive. Every episode gives you the chance to build on top of what was laid down before. And what's always been thrilling to me about this is that it is a cumulative medium for the audience, for the creators, for the actors who are learning more and more and having more of a base to build on over the course of one season or multiple seasons. Yeah, we talk about how shows teach us how to watch them all the time. Yes, and I think that the goal, when everything clicks, the goal is when circumstances are surprising or even shocking, but the behavior and the reactions of characters feels inevitable. That's not the same as it being predictable. What it means is the choices that are made feel so true and baked in because of everything,

all the track that's been laid down before. Yeah, can I jump in there for just a second, actually? Sure, before you. Yeah, because I think that the best example of what you, you're talking about is that you don't have to be a television expert or watch a ton of dramatic TV necessarily, but anyone who's ever known anyone who has addiction problems or a struggle with addiction problems themselves has known that the Kendall moment has been coming ever since he walked into that bar in New Mexico.

Ever since he asked for a non-alcoholic beer and they didn't have one, this is what was going to be the end result of this season. And it was really just a matter of how bad was the collateral damage is going to be. and it actually turned out to be as bad as it can possibly be. If you're talking about hitting bottom, he literally hit the bottom of a pond. And so... And left someone there.

Yeah. And so that was to see the patience and to see them play that both for... Frankly, laughs at certain times, like in Prague. I think that there was a lot of comedy to be derived from it. Cocaine is funny. Like when you film it and do it in certain ways, like in television, it's like a funny...

It triggers funny moments in shows and in movies. it's also just absolutely destroy it's destructive it will kill you and if it doesn't kill you it can devastate everything around you and to watch that arc down was exactly what you're talking about

yeah and I want to specifically I wanted to talk about there's a micro moment and a macro moment I think you've correctly identified the macro of this the slow devastation of Kendall and to your point

about how the drugs work, one of the many brilliant choices made in the course of the storytelling was that he didn't flame out or bottom out every time he did a line or every time he up to, you know, re-uped his tumbler of whatever the whiskey was that they were drinking. It doesn't work like that. He had a fun time, and he had a bad time, and he had an okay time, and mostly he was still the same guy, but fraying at the edges, and then all of a sudden the bottom fell out. The moment I was building to, in the micro in this episode, was Roman in the bathroom with a rocket launch. He watches it in silence.

He reacts in silence. He washes his hands thoroughly and sort of rubs his eyes and exits the bathroom. And in that moment, I just felt complete zen with the universe and the universe of storytelling and television. Because what I felt in that moment was the complete synchronicity of a writing room, of a creator, of a set designer, crucially of an actor and of an editor. there obviously was conversation about how to play all those moments

but it didn't feel like there was any conversation didn't feel like there needed to be any conversation because everyone knew who this guy was and what to do with it. I love moments like that. But the Kendall story, of course, is the story of the season and it played out in so many astonishing ways

because it was a slow motion car crash except for the actual car crash because it was a series of terrible decisions because it felt both shocking and inevitable and throughout at all, Jeremy Strong's performance is steady, precise, astonishing, and the direction captures him in a way that the show intends to capture him, which is to say he is a boy. Oh, yeah.

He is a small, physically small boy. The way he ran away from that car accident is like the way a child runs. Just like kind of jogging with his arms moving really fast. You know, he may think that maybe that's supposed to be some sort of like... Stealth shit. Yeah, or some sort of, you know, 22nd century. physical trainer showed him how to do it that way.

But it reminded me, I know that Dustin Hoffman is his favorite actor, Jeremy Strong's favorite actor. It actually reminded me a little bit of the gate that Dustin Hoffman as a marathon man, but in fact it looked like a child running away. I thought that the

way in which Kendall Shiv and Roman, their wedding night, was very illustrative of their characters themselves. There is a degree to which those people are constantly putting themselves in and taking themselves out of the game. The great game that Logan just talks about, like come play the, you know, it's all a game for him.

I want you back in. Yeah. And Roman is tangentially involved, but it's like he's looking at it through a phone, you know, and when it explodes, he's only interested in how, whether or not he got burned, whether or not somebody died, and that the conversations that he has with Jerry

where she's just like, my phone is wrong like 40 times in the last 20 minutes. And he's just like, yeah, weird. I don't know why they haven't gotten in touch with me. Yeah. It's corporate manslaughter. Yeah, but just a couple of thumbs. But he doesn't ever get dirty, you know what I mean? And that's what allows him to be this princeling above it all.

Everything is bullshit. I have a personality disorder shitbag. And Kendall over and over again exposes himself. And that's why he gets destroyed. I also really like the fact that Kendall is not a damaged genius. He is not, you know, Jim Carroll in the basketball diaries. He's not even Jesse Pinkman, really, who has a lot of potential, if only he could get clean and apply himself.

He's a guy who essentially can't handle the world, which is what happens to a lot of people who are addicted to drugs. They use it because they can't handle the world necessarily. Also, coddled rich doffance. It's a threat between all. Yeah, but I think that there's probably similarities between what happens to Kendall and what happens to a person making,

$35,000 a year. You know what I mean? I think that there's coping mechanisms for the ordinary stresses and you could see that both in celebration and defeat, Kendall would turn to drugs. He wanted to celebrate winning the bear hug and getting it across the line.

And then he needed to you know, he needed to keep going down as the dread built that his father was going to mount a defense. You know? The person who kind of knows how to play it best of all is Shiv. Shiv fucking Roy, you know what I mean, who even on her wedding night is unflappable in any different

direction and is able to handle the fallacy of her marriage, a power move on a political candidate who's going to run for president, and her family's sort of self-destruction. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, by the way, shouts to newly minted watch superfan Jay Smith Cameron for correcting us and saying it's Sarah Snoke. Sarah Snoke. Jerry Godmother reached out on Twitter. The Jerry Godmother reached out on Twitter. God bless. Jay Smith Cameron, come on desktop. You want you on here to talk. By the way, I love that the people who are on Budds women on this podcast for pronunciation are the great actress, Jay Smith Cameron, and the legendary casting director, Alexa Fogel. I'm sure 80% of our audience is like, that's not how you say that word, but they just let it go. They reach out to tell us. One of the things that I was hoping for from this show when I heard, that it was announced when Adam McKay was a part of it.

Obviously, more than just a part of it, it comes from his company, executive producer, he directed the pilot, was that he would get into a space that I think has been a hobby horse for him in the last few years, which is that the air is different when you have the altitude of the super-rich. There is a different gravity. It's possible even the gravity doesn't apply.

All of the rules that we think govern us as humans seem to be bendable at a certain price point. And I really appreciated the slow way that was revealed to us over the course of this season. In the case of Tom, who's partly due to Matthew McFadden's performance, is still deeply human, and we see all sides of him. He's just a Midwestern guy who has flown very, very close to the sun here. And as he says to Cousin Greg earlier in the season,

being rich is fucking awesome, because you can put a napkin over your head and eat a baby bird at a restaurant. You can do whatever you want is what he says when it's fun. And then his face, when his wife on their wedding night says, love is an illusion and traditional marriage is for suckers. And it's just a word we used, but it includes all these different things. It's all bullshit.

And he's like, no, love is love. And you see his face and you also see him question it and adapt. Because when you are that far up and your compass starts spinning, you can accept it. And maybe there's new opportunity here to step on the neck of someone else. And that gets him through the night. That same idea of there being a different morality

and a different gravity certainly applies to Kendall and our relationship with him. Because there has been a level of, because this is television, and the people making this know it's television, you get affection for characters you spend time with, whether they are, quote, likable or not, whether they are good people or not.

And the best shows, don't worry about that and don't have the characters look in the mirror and ask that question. So it understood that we would, kind of against our better interest, hope that Kendall gets away with it. And then actually start to feel like he's going to get away with this. He's handled it fairly well. When he goes out to find that guy and he's asking, he's trying to score,

I was like, well, okay, so maybe he just oversleeps the next day because they had set up like, well, you know, they want him to call, they want us to check in at two and four and six. And I was like, okay, so maybe he's just going to like black out. And maybe he misses a little bit of it, but then he shows up. It's crazy when he shows up. I don't know what I was thinking. You know what I mean?

because part of the issue with Kendall is that, and this is what I was meaning, like he's not some, like, damaged genius who's just, it's like when he's ever confronted with the opportunity to speak for himself, to blow somebody away with his vision for their company, to be a father,

to be a husband, to be any of this. It's like the circuitry gets overloaded. And that was, you know, all he could muster against Logan ever was you're a fucking beast. Now, points for being succinct. That really summed it up.

He is a fucking beat. But you kept waiting for that Aaron Sorkin takedown that like you and then just this bullet pointed and completely waterproof argument against Logan Roy's leadership of the company and the family. And it's just not there. It's just not there. The memory is full. And it's full of drugs probably. But it's like he's never actually had to do it. And that is fascinating to watch.

I don't know how sustainable it is to watch. But it's fascinating to watch. Your point about these people who are basically. so rich that they can bend reality is very well taken. It's people who look on a screen and see a rocket explode and then wipe the corners of their mouth and go back out to a party, or people who just decide after one conversation with a senator that they're going to be the president in 2020 to keep the good seed. I mean, the ego is astonishing, but also the central premise of the show is laid bare in the finale if it hadn't been before, which is why is Logan Roy successful?

What is he good at? Well, he's a monster. That's what he's good at being. He is an absolute, unkillable savage. And that is not getting an MBA from Wharton. That is not having good interpersonal skills. You know, that is not good putting pin in things, and, you know, let's bounce it around the room for some ideas. It's none of the jargon or corporate speak

or any of the things that the people vying to take his seat think are necessary to achieve that seat. You just have to be a monster. And Kendall, who, by the way, isn't good at anything, is certainly not that. So that's the futility of this. And that's another sign of a good TV show or a good drama when all the characters aren't wrong.

The things that Logan says about his children are monstrous things to say to children. He's never entirely wrong about... He understands them, you know? And one of the most crushing things about the final scene was it's not just Kendall's overwhelming shame and grief, it is his relief. Yeah.

And it is this feeling that Logan, even as he waves to his butler over his son's shoulder, that Logan is at peace because he's not comfortable with rivals or adult children. He's comfortable with babies who need things. You know, he can, which isn't to say he was changing diapers. Yeah. But he is to say that this baby boy needed him,

and he could do that. He could do those things. You talked a little bit. You mentioned the, 360 degree levels of accomplishment on this show from the way it's shot to the way it's set designed. I wanted to say a special note for how they dress Kendall in that scene. Because he looks like a little boy that's been dressed up

for a Sunday morning breakfast at a wedding. Oh, my God. His little sweater. His shoulders are so narrow and small. He looks like they really, they accentuate how much taller Greg is than him in the line. And when the guy comes for him, and when they bring him in with Logan and Logan's in there with that crackling fire

like he's a fucking Duke from the 19th century and everything is for effect right he's got like his family members this on one couch he immediately lays it out and you know I think that we can discuss the ambiguity

of whether or not there was any real father's son affection going on there I think you're right in that there is that now the world has returned to its natural order. Exactly. Like, I am the lion and you are the damaged cub

and you're going to go out to the desert and then you're going to come back and you're going to have some bullshit job at Waystar or whatever it is if that happens. But the tear, you know,

that goes down Jeremy Strong's eye when he starts to explain the situation and he tries to say, well, I didn't do anything wrong. You know what I mean? And then him, you know, pulling him in and saying,

you're my beautiful boy, you're my number one boy or whatever and hugging him is that's like a, I'm the one who knocks moment. You know what I mean? That is a real moment you're going to remember

for years to come. Yeah, I mean, you know, fuck the Emmys on some level. They're ridiculous. But if we live in a world where we have them, Jeremy Strong and Sarah Snoke and Matthew McFadden

and Brian Cox are deserving of them. As is Kieran Culkin and Alan Ruck? For what they bring to bear here. I also just want to give credit to some of the architecture, you know, and that's a word that I'm going to use when we speak to Jesse Armstrong as well, but there's a lot of thoughtfulness the way this is put together. The way he watches his daughter dance is devastating, not only because we know of where he's been,

but we also know of how impossible this is going to be for him to ever understand priorities, because he's, like all people, model their behavior on their parents. And casting shadow over this entire season intentionally, I think. And I'm sure this was discussed at length in the room and everyone who's been involved in the creation of it. The backdrop to this remember is Rupert Murdoch and his family, obviously an inspiration, both good and bad for the Roy family. Let's remember that Rupert Murdoch has had his sons work in his company all over the world in Australia, New York, in Los Angeles, in Europe, building his empire, managing his empire,

you know, basically playing them against each other. Try to pull his company closer to the center. The way Logan Roy has done. Yeah. And ultimately, when it became time for him to make good. decision or to plan for a future generation, he fucking sold it. He sold it rather than let his children have a say in his legacy or muddy it. And that is, I mean, I don't care about these people.

Although, man, if X-Men get to join the Avengers, that'd be cool. I don't care about these people, but there is something that is Shakespearean about that, of course, and to see it playing upwards and downwards. Because, again, young children in TV shows are often unforced errors, but the way that Rava and the kids show up, the role they play, the emotional care with which those scenes are written, as you talked about last week, matter. You know, all of these people could do what Tom says to Shiv. We could go be scuba instructors.

Yeah. We could leave. Oh, yeah. They're so rich, as Kendall says, in the car on the way to Doom. they could do anything, but they also can't ever leave. Yeah, Kendall's whole discussion about what are you going to fucking kidnap me?

Is it going to kill me at a house with a, like a tin roof? That's the other thing. Let's maybe, before we get Jesse on the phone, let's just go back to that, which is, boy, this is funny. I mean, this was one of the funniest episodes. Greg, the motherfucking egg.

Yeah. Greg on the margins. The entire Alan Rock performance from what he's going to do if his prostitute girlfriend can't be in the wedding photos to, his conversation with her about running for president

where she's like I think art can change the world he's like well yeah well no I could I could outlaw art I could out of the position I could outlaw art and the sense that you know

he presents himself as this Mr. cool guy in the desert you know who separated himself but of course he is more fuck than any of them in his head to thought of losing his fortune

losing his power they all still want it and right because they say it's like our inheritance is tied up in stock in this company like this company you want to tear it down. You want to make it this new thing.

That doesn't work for us. Because we have our lives and how we want to use it. And in that scene, the image is painted like a Renaissance painting with this background. And then, you know, finally this was also, these last two episodes were the ones where I realized why. By the, this is great. This is a great show to be on HBO because all the conversation that's been happening about, you know, when AT&T buys the network, is HBO going to be more like Netflix? is it going to start going for quantity over quality?

This is a strong argument for what HBO can do on two fronts. One, this is not a show top line by movie stars. This is not a big get in terms of the trades, but this was cast immaculately and precisely with great care. As someone who's going through casting right now, I marvel how they nailed every minor role, including all the major roles. This is the promise of a TV show is that you mint your own stars.

You mint your own stars, and then you hold on to them. It's a large regular cast. and it's a large supporting and guest cast, Jay Smith, Cameron, Ari and Moyad. They're not in the main cast yet, but they're not going anywhere. And also, they moved production of the show twice. It's not, this show is based in New York.

They filmed an episode in New Mexico, and they filmed two episodes in a castle in England that looked like a castle in England. You can't make a show about the super rich without being able to show what super rich would look like. Yeah, Netflix could bankroll that, but I do think this is an argument for what HBO can and should be doing in terms of, you know, this is just so precisely done.

This is not done by committee. I also thought that this show, it didn't have a mystery, which was refreshing. I think that, like, we've probably become a little bit dependent on mysteries in our television watching, whether, even if the mystery is, as will they or won't they catch this person as like a pursuit, you know, like Garcos or something. Just rewriting Breyer Patch while you're talking. And I think that this show, showed what you could do if you really clearly and honestly looked at characters rather than either lionized them or excoriated them. Because I think one of the things that really dominates the way we talk about television, the way we talk about art these days is the likeability of the characters, whether or not you approve of their behavior morally.

and what it really sort of presses you is that if you can see these people who are objectively bad for the world, there's not a single person in that group who is actually giving back to the planet in a significant way, regardless of whatever charitable foundations they bankroll,

even the person who you're like, I'm kind of pulling for Kendall, it's not like he's trying to save people's jobs or create new ones. He's trying to be a tech bro shitback. Like, that's his dream is to be like, when they're like, what are you trying to do here? He's like, I want to be new. I want to do new stuff and make news.

Like, he doesn't even know. He wants to shut down newspapers and local news stations and he wants to like put to filter in the like or whatever. Yeah, exactly. This dude wants to pivot to video. Exactly. So it tested viewers. It tested us.

It asked us open your mind a little bit. Try to think and not so binary terms of I like this person or this person is the worst. and really pursue it. It kind of reminded me of Breaking Bad in that way, although Breaking Bad spent a lot more time with the people who wound up being the villains as heroes. You know what I mean? I feel like you were built up.

It's like Kendall didn't have a tumor. You know, Kendall didn't have to save his family home, and he didn't have to, like, provide for a working mother and his son. It's like he, this is just already, like, bullshit for him. No, the details are actually, the character learning details actually often go in the other direction, which is to say on a much more basic show, the lone interaction between Logan Roy and the waiter would not have played the way it was. The waiter maybe would have tried to rob him or said something rude to him or been a 99% or something. In fact, he was just a normal person doing his job who poked the dragon at the wrong time and the dragon breathed fire.

on him and changed his um changed his his itinerary and changed his life yeah that created the reasoning on some level for why Logan is so dismissive of justice for this guy because Logan already hated this guy but the point is Logan hates everyone it doesn't matter yeah these people don't matter and it also is if you can bend reality you can like it's what Logan says to him it's like

this can be a detail that gets forgotten on a wedding night or it can change your life and he says to as he says to the head of the service or whatever at the home, at the castle, I never want to see that person again. Yeah. He deep-sixes him from reality. Right. He gets a sweetener. Like, kid is like, I'm kind of like, I got well paid to be like eradicated from this business, basically.

Yeah. I mean, the lesson is never bring horse tranquilizer to work with you. I just feel like that's never going to end well. I'm thrilled. I preach, Chris, I want to thank you, my podcast partner and friend for urging me to stick with this show. Yeah, man. It feels really great to be excited about something, to be impressed by something.

And I really like your point also about how refreshing this show can be, even though it's built obviously on the bones of other things. For me, it's not just that there's no mystery. It's that this is not genre and it is not pre-existing IP. And it's adult, and it's smart. And crucially, it's funny. Yes. All right, let's talk to the person who made it all those things, Jesse Armstrong.

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Objects also features Patricia Clarkson, Chris Bacina, and Eliza Scanlon. See new episodes every Sunday at 9 and catch up on HBO Now. Okay, so Chris and I are now extremely excited to be joined on the phone from London. Maybe just crouched that side of the writer's room. We don't even know the details with the creator and showrunner of Succession. We are finally closing the circuit. Jesse Armstrong, welcome. Hey, how you doing? Yeah, I've just left the writer's room and they're all going for an Indian meal.

So I'm excited to go and join them. Oh, good. I hope we haven't cost you the chance for a Vindaloo or something. We'll keep this as brief as possible. Yeah, they're going to be heading through all the popodoms, and I'm going to be a few popodoms, Dan, but I'm willing to do this because I like to talk about art. Well, we will elevate our conversation to be worthy of the sacrifice. Congratulations, first of all, on a tremendous first season of television. We obviously are enraptured by it, and I know a lot of our listeners are as well. Thank you very much. I'm really, you know, it's a interesting tone. I think it has its challenges. for people that we went for and there's interesting stuff in there,

so I'm glad you've responded to it. Well, I'm glad you brought up the potential difficulty in hazards here. We do want to talk about the finale while we have you on the phone, but since we do have you, we wanted to go back a little bit further and talk to you about

how you found your way into this project. I think the question that I'm sure you wrestled with and are still wrestling with, how to make a compelling drama about people, A, who can do anything, and B, people who are widely loathed by, I don't know, 99% of the world, particularly at this moment. How did you choose to find your way in?

What was interesting to you? And then how did you lay down your stakes with this first season, the type of story you wanted to tell? Yeah, it's an interesting question. I think part of it was I totally ignored some of that. Like, I don't think I realized that people would have a bump or could have a bump around these kind of characters, I think maybe, you know, the shows I like watching about interesting people,

and I'm not, and it may be a quirk of character, I'm not super personally, I don't think, judgmental, I mean, I make a judgment on whether who I find appealing or not, but I, as a viewer, I don't think need, you know, I don't feel like it's sports and I need someone to get behind. I think other people have a different take on that. So, so part of that may just be a deficient to me deficiency of me as a writer, you know, the other stuff I've written has been, you know, some of it has been a sitcom and more overtly comic and maybe you're, you don't have the same requirements as in an hour long piece. Anyway, I don't know why I don't care too much about that, but I don't. And other people feel similarly that they want to see interesting people,

you know, doing interesting stuff. And, and, and that's why I feel the show is about. it's about culture, media come into that, and this show in the climate created by. Jesse, I wanted to ask you specifically about how you paced the season and structured the season, and the episodes themselves as well, but after watching the finale,

I couldn't help but think about maybe there being this overarching spine to the show was the relationship between Logan and Kendall and specifically almost the way that neither one of them could ever have not only power, like power, but also health even at the same time as Logan gets stronger throughout the season recovering from his stroke and then comes back.

It augurs the sort of decline of Kendall around the Austerlitz episode. Could you talk to us a little bit about that central relationship and how you structured the season around it? Yeah, I think so. I think I can. As I talk, we'll find out whether the words have any use. Yeah, I guess we were not unaware of a symphonic kind of thing of exactly as you put your finger on. And it's never that much fun as a sort of showrunner, a creative person to try and decode your own stuff.

So there's certain bits that, in a way, I don't want to talk about, because I don't want to think about too much. But I think it is true to say we're not, we weren't unaware of exactly what you suggest, which is that there's something slightly less and unnerving about, hey, can it gets distributed in this season between those. primarily between those. And I think you will feel that there are other people around who's like a pretty zero-sum game. And I think, you know, what you've identified is true. I think Roman just wants the icing. I may be wrong about that.

Yeah, he's not going to help you with the dry fruit cake. He's going about the icing. I think one of the, Chris and I talk about this often on the podcast, one of the great joys of television shows, especially when they're getting started, is the way a show with a very strong sense of identity and tone will teach you how to watch it and what to appreciate it and what to look for and how to understand it. Succession was absolutely fits that category.

I did wonder, though, if you went through a process of finding your way as the audience did, because I'll cop to being a slow adoptee of the show. It wasn't really until midway through the season that I realized, oh, wait, I'm completely compelled and fascinated by the show. I had felt that I was on more of a fence prior to that. But I think, in my experience watching it, there was a palpable sense. of you and your writers gaining more confidence in who these people were, certainly in the actors understanding who their characters would be and could be culminating in a moment that I just thought was so small

and so perfect and representative of the synchronicity you all seem to achieve, which was Roman watching the rocket launch in the bathroom, wordlessly, washing his hands and walking out of it. It just seemed like Kieran understood it. You understood it in your script, the director. Everyone seemed to get how he would behave, and you showed it to us. Yeah, I mean, I don't know on that one. I think it could be, it could smack of arrogance to suggest this, but I feel a bit like we did,

I think we did know, and I'd be curious. I'm pretty open to criticism and reassessing my stuff and thinking about it in different ways, relatively open, he claims. But I think I am. And I would be curious if you went back and looked at the first episode, whether, you know, me and my writing partner, Sam used to laugh about, you know, maybe when we saw the receptions of other people's shows how critics would often say, are the writers are really getting to know the characters by episodes, you know, five or six.

And you thought, no, usually the writers do know these characters. You, the audience are discovering them. And we all know that feeling. I don't think, I don't disdain that because I know my, you know how the shows that I've watched. And you're like, oh, I kind of, I'm warming to these people or I'm discoverer to enjoy. And I think sometimes one reimposes one's own feeling on. So I may be wrong, but I think most of that stuff is there earlier in the season. That's my feeling.

But trust the tale, not the teller. I think you might be right. And I even said that last week on the show, that I would like to revisit and to see if now that I understand fully and I'm invested if I would watch them, if they would play differently for me. I think you may be right. I'm also wondering if maybe you're just so peckish for the Indian food we're denying you that you want to be disagreeable. I'm not sure.

He's just seeing non dancing front of his eyes. It's one or the other. I could become more and more arrogant and difficult to deal with the longer this goes on. So let's, yeah, you better give me some softball later on. I'm going to pivot to praise after Chris's next question. Jesse, I wanted to specifically ask about Jeremy Strong because he's somebody that early on in the season. I just felt like I recognized a very special performance, a very unique character. Andy and I just spent half an hour talking about the finale,

and one of the things that I thought was remarkable is that, you know, I think we're conditioned to expect Kendall to get his, finally get a word in. You know, he's been confronted by Logan over the course of this season, and the only thing that he can really muster is you're a fucking beast. And even the way that Jeremy Strong plays that, the way you can see him searching for that moment and not being able to come up with it and then the thing that happens afterwards,

the sort of not the consequences of that moment, but what happens afterwards is so fascinating. And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about his specific performance throughout the season. Well, yeah, I have unlimited time and respect for his performance. It's always a bit boring hearing people, just praise other people they've worked for because it just feels like I don't get to,

most people don't get to praise their co-workers in the media as much of writers and directors do. So, yeah, I guess what I would like to say is something thrillingly incisive about how particularly brilliant he is, but I feel like I'm just going to gush the kind of, we had such a nice time on the shoot, kind of bullshit that you can get when people talk about what a nice time they've had on the shoot.

So I guess he's super committed. He's like, he's intellectually engaged with the material. He knew everything that this guy would know. He'd read all the, he was, you know, somewhat method in terms of his keeping the appropriate distance from other cast members and even writers and myself in terms of wanting to fully inhabit the role. and so, yeah, you know, actor. So he, in moments like you say, with the, you know, winning. Yeah, because he can't articulate, you know, throughout the season, but really in this final episode,

that incredible walk he does in the beginning once he gets the Bear Hug Letter, the run back from the car crash, the confrontation, and then the sort of coming to Logan as a son to a father at the end, you know, he's not doing a lot of the talking. He's processing, but Jeremy's such like an elaborate performer. you can kind of see him running all these emotions just in his eyes. It's remarkable.

Yeah, no, I think you're right. You just turn the camera on. I wanted to talk to you, Jesse, a little bit about how you like to work with your writers, how you build the architecture of these episodes, because they are so expertly constructed. And I am sure many of our listeners know, although some might not, that you've written, for many shows in different genres and styles. You wrote one of the finest episodes of Black Mirror, an entire history of you. you've worked with Armando Yanucci at length.

You've worked on peep show and thick of it. So comedy, drama, sci-fi, and now this amazing hybrid of everything, although with a rocket explosion, I guess there's no sci-fi as of yet. Anyway, but just in terms of constructing the episodes, because I think about an episode like Austerlitz, which until the finale, I think, was my favorite of the season,

you have this incredible ensemble. You put them in tight, very specific circumstances, and yet you find time for every character and every pairing to have value. Every scene adds something, whether it is information, whether it's exposition, or more often,

it's just character and humor. I'm thinking of the great scene between Marcia and Willa, characters who are not necessarily in the starting five, yet are essential to our understanding and our enjoyment of the show. Well, thank you.

That's nice of you to say, and we do do a lot of hard work, you know, like a lot of writers' rooms. We spend a lot of time together breaking the stories. My fellow writers are incredibly talented, got a really extraordinary group in that. I still

was written by Lucy Preble so a lot a lot of the credit is just staying talented people who then write really great episodes and we've helped to do the create the and I guess that you know I've just come out of

the end of the first part of the process of doing season two and the thing that strikes me is it's and this goes to the season and the episodes of of that continual it's keeping it big honing it down, making sure you think big, coming down to the details, remembering you can throw it all away,

what's the art, what are we saying about this character, this world, and what physical or emotional. And in the moment, how it feels, I think, in a writing room that's working well, you'd like, let's keep all the possibilities open, but let's make sure we know exactly how they're walking down the corridor, and to make sure that you have a propulsive kind of remember for not necessarily the most propulsive kind of plot being. So that's the of trying to keep it open and honing in the whole time. Tying that question into the finale,

obviously I think we have Alan Rucks Hall of Fame reel for when he goes to Cooperstown, but just the turn, or Connor, who is, you know, we're at the point with these characters in just a short season where we're excited for each of them to take a turn to show up on camera to have something to say,

particularly to party, and you have so many great parties in this season. Connor suddenly deciding to run for president on a whim and then having his platform be what it is. Does that emerge from a larger conversation you've had about the character and where his head might be? Or does that come purely from the excitement of being in a room and pitching ideas

and wondering where his journey is that episode and knowing what you have in Alan Ruck and his performance? A mixture of both. I mean, that wasn't, I mean, I couldn't imagine a version where, I guess I wrote that episode where I just threw that in and then had been, you know, I hope this lands and another right, I'd do that in another episode. But with that, that was a plot line that we've been discussing for a long time. You know, it always, it always amused us and felt, although it's quite big, it felt like,

you know, the idea of somebody who's really done nothing amusing has some resonances, maybe in American life. And so that was a, that one was actually the sort of plot line that it feels like it's, it just about fits in here. So, so yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's not just the county to get in. I wanted to ask you, you obviously are, you know, all going to share what's going to happen in season two, but I'm more curious about, this first season was obviously the feeding frenzy that happens when the great lion of this,

family is felled for at least the time being, at least for the first sort of two-thirds of the season or half of the season, is, and I really enjoyed how each episode, you know, kind of felt like these people were imprisoned with one another, whether it was in New Mexico or at a wedding or in a, you know, a holiday dinner. It just, they were brought together and were almost inexperly, you know, drawn to one another and yet repelled by one another at the same time. And I was curious whether or not there are structural tenets that you want to try. transport over from the first season to the second season. Are we going to continue to see these people in these gathering points?

Or is there a little bit more of us spreading out happening if you could share anything about the second season? Yeah, I think, you know, one kind of big thing I always knew was, I think, when I pitched it to HBO, I said, like, every episode will be a special, you know, it'll always be a thing. I guess, you know, lots of shows reflected in the fact for us to do birth, death, marriages. is these, it's, it's going to do other stuff. Finally, I'm kicking myself that in the time we had with you, I didn't give a special mention or question based around the performance of Sarah Snook,

who's just incredible as Chavon, possibly my favorite character. But I have to say, as much as I am enjoying the dynamic between her and Tom, I think everyone listening understands that the real couple to ship on the show is Tom and cousin Greg. Can you talk about the origins of the, of that, magical pair, the potential future of that couple, and just the chemistry. Was it there from that first table read, or did it build over time? And will you give the viewers the Fly Guys spin-off that they're looking for in the succession experiment?

Exactly, a web series, maybe. We did cut away to the Fly Guys. We had some material on the cutting floor where we cut away to the Fly Guys and saw what they were up to in their diner, but it never quite made the cut. Tom and Greg, I think they're, I think, um, The actors developed a fondness for that relationship through the season, which was fun to see happen. I think Matthew and Nick kind of enjoyed the way they interrelated. I think they were the most likely to, you say corpse as well, don't you, in the US for when someone unintended it laughs without meaning to on set.

Do you say corpse? I don't think so. No, I think we say breaks. You say breaks, yeah. Break, yeah, that's it. So they would be the most likely to break. And I think that was kind of, when I wrote the pilot, I don't think I saw, I don't think I knew that that relationship was going to necessarily,

they have that moment together, they have a little moment on a baseball field where Tom is kind of insinuating and weird and, and I guess, it's the, I don't know if I was aware of this in a rowative bit, but I said like, hey, look, I think this family can only take one kind of, kind of numbed. And I think once we did the writer's room, we all... And just finally now, as you said, you've just stepped out of the writer's room. You're about to be released by us towards your dinner. This does feel a little bit cruel, almost, holding you. But I did have to ask, if you could relate to your mindset right now, as you've just, begun the process of season two. You're with the writers. To Kendall's arc during the season, are you making a pitch

to dust in your mind? Are you working out to age inappropriate hip-hop? Are you, have you just emerged from a swamp where you've killed somebody? You know, feel free to find your own moment, but I'm just curious if we could have some insight into where you are as the showrunner of this series.

Oh, God. Yeah, that's very cruel question, actually, because you know, as any rights, you guys will know. You don't really know what you are. You keep on thinking you're taking over the company

and then you look back and you realize that you were pitching. I had no interest in you. So, yeah, it feels, it feels good right now, but I'm very,

I'll be very aware that when I look back next week, I may have seen myself driving through New York, singing along to music that was only playing in my ears and making a fool of myself. So, yeah, it's a long road. Well, Jesse, we're excited to walk it with you.

Thank you so much for taking the time. Thank you for a tremendous season. And please enjoy a mango lessee on us. Yeah, congratulations. Incredible achievement. Thank you. That's really kind, Jens. I'm going to have three nanbreads on your time. You deserve it. Take care, man. Bye. All right. Cheers. Thanks a lot. Bye-bye. Thank you so much for listening. That was Jesse Armstrong. Thank you so much to him for coming on. Showrunner and Creator of Succession. It's been a blast talking about this show this season. until season two, Andy.

Chris, what has the belt now? I think until further notice, it's just Roman watching the Rocket launch. And then washing his hands and walking, walking away. Congratulations on your corporate merger and your wedding and your Bear Hug, Baranski. Stay out of the pond,

Branskis. We did it. Today's episode of the watch was brought to you by The Venture Brothers. A brand new season of the critically acclaimed animated series, The Venture Brothers is almost here. Watch Hank Dean, Brock Rusty, and the rest of Team Venture

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