The Watch - Seven Reasons Why We Love ‘The Bear,' Plus ‘The Boys’ Check-in and ‘The Old Man'

Episode Date: June 27, 2022

Chris and Andy talk about the third episode of ‘The Old Man’ and what marks some turning points for the show (6:25). Then, they do a midseason check-in with ‘The Boys’ (20:22) before talking about why they love ‘The Bear’ (29:56). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Now. Hello and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at Ringer.com and joining me on the other line, an old man distinctly qualified to talk about the old man. It's Andy Greenwald. What if you had just said the old man? Oh, if I was just like it's Jeff Bridges, my new host, my new co-host? No, I just mean if you were just really taking the dig at me because, you know, I think many of our listeners know that I am just two days shy of being a full six months older than you. And I feel like respect should be paid. But I have that youthful effervescence.

People do say that about you. Yeah. All the time, people are like, I thought you were in your late 30s. What are you, 39? Amazing stuff. Greenwald, it's great to see you. It's Monday. Here we are.

A bunch of stuff we could talk about today. Like, I was thinking we could do, you know, maybe a little bit of a boys catch up. I really wanted to dive in a little deeper on the bear now that folks have had a chance to see it. And just based anecdotally, it seems like people have been like inhaling that show. So I'd love to go a little bit deeper into that. we'll kind of cordon that off as a spoiler conversation because I want to be able to talk about some of the stuff that happens in later episodes of that show. And we could talk about the old man episode three if you want. Not a lot of news and notes outside of the obvious, incredibly disappointing and heartbreaking decision in the Supreme Court.

But, you know, I was going to ask you, like, if you spent your weekend, like, did you happen to see any of the Glastonbury footage from this weekend? I saw some of it. We were talking before we started about, like, which. performer led the best fuck the Supreme Court chant from the Glassonbury stage. Frankly, they're all winners in my book, and I thought that was awesome. Olivia Rodriguez

calling people out my name was pretty good. Yeah, I thought Phoebe Bridgers did a nice job as well. But, so no, yeah, I saw, you know, Mike Glastonbury, so do people know what Glass and Berry is? Is this a global event now? I assume so, but maybe not. So, Glassonbury is like, for the UK, and I imagine,

I don't know if this is correct, but like, imagine if Woodstock was every year. but it was still kind of the original Woodstock in that it was a cultural event that seemed almost larger than whoever was playing it. So for one bank holiday weekend every summer, major acts from past and the present

and the future play in a field. And like, it seems like everybody goes. If there are English people who don't go to Glastonbury, I've yet to meet them. And if they don't go, it's because they literally physically can't for whatever reason that weekend or whatever.

But usually... Around this time of year, especially this time of year, because it hasn't happened for the last couple of summers because of COVID, your Instagram feed just turns into like muddy dudes watching Paul McCartney. Muddy dudes and killer fits. Yeah, muddy dudes and killer fits. It was really cool. I haven't been to a festival, obviously, probably more than a few years, like even going back before 2020. But it was really awesome to see Paul McCartney played a three-hour set, which featured Dave Gouldenie. role coming out. Pet Shop Boys played. Noel Gallagher played a lot of Oasis songs. I saw the

Primal Scream played. It looked like a lot of fun. Kendrick Lamar. Maca played three hours, three days after his 80th birthday, right? Yeah. I don't know if I can golf three months after my 44th birthday. Never worry about the capability of 80-year-old men, whether it's on the Glass and Berry stage or in the White House. You know what I mean? To adjudicate. Yeah, right, exactly. It's fine. where do you want to start today with the pod? So we've got the third episode of the old man. We've got the hero-gazim episode. Speaking of old man, I'm sorry.

I just need to make this like a more detailed rich transition. Chris, are you saying that with your youthful brio, you are sparkling water to my very flat tap? Room temp. Would you go to Glastow at this moment of your life? Would you just be like, I'm mad for it, lads? It's not the being there. That's the problem for me.

it's the getting in and out. And the getting in is fine. I find the journey to places pretty easy. As I get older, I get a little bit more like I need my, I need to know where the exits are, you know? A little more of an aisle seat guy, a little more of a like, kind of like I'd love to be able to know that if I want a boogie, it can happen. Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, I like this idea that you are good to go places because I think that in my experience driving the New Jersey Turnpike with you, you are truthfully ready. to go on any journey as long as there's like reasonably spaced out synobon visits. Sure.

I mean, that's like the fun of it, though. Okay. You'd be like, can we go, can we stop here? It was good practice for having kids, actually. That's right. Which one would show do you want to start with? Well, this is a funny moment because we have been veering towards more general conversation about the industry recently, both because there's been a lot of news and upheaval, but also because...

It's the easiest way for us to talk about. Star Wars. But also, but also, like, you know, here we are with three shows, active shows that we are pretty into. And it's interesting now to think about and realize that it's just not one size fits all anymore. So people enjoying, hopefully, or at least tolerating this podcast, may have to use the timestamps, right?

Because whichever when we talk about, people aren't necessarily, I don't know how many of our listeners are up to speed on the three shows that we're about to talk about. And I don't know if it matters. But I guess with that in mind, we should probably go. in the order of doneness of the shows, meaning the old man is done three episodes. Let's start there. The boys just aired its, was that five or six?

I think he was six of the third season. And then the Bears completed its first season. It's up. So why don't we do that? So spoilers going forward for everything that happens up to episodes and through episode three for old man, up to the hero and through the hero-gazm episode of the boys and then the entire first season of the bear.

Kaya will put our time stamps in so that you guys can skip around and listen to the sections of the podcast that, for the corresponding with the shows that you've watched. The old man, I want to start here, which is a little bit of a kind of just, I've been thinking about this a lot with shows in general about, you know, what you know as a viewer versus what the characters know as characters, right? So I thought it was fairly obvious to me that O'Lea Shawkatz character was going to be Jeff Bridges' daughter. I mean, that sounded like her voice on the phone for many of the first two episodes. So watching her interact with John Lithgow while very sincere, I did kind of think, that sure does seem like that would be his daughter. And unless this daughter is a figment of his imagination and truly is deceased, I imagine that this is like a long, his daughter has now gotten close to his oldest adversary and is now keeping him abreast of what's happening

in the intelligence community. What did you make of the quote unquote twist and did you even read it as such? Yeah, I was actually picking up on it near the end of the second episode, like, oh, are they trying to keep this a secret? That's what I'm saying. And I felt like the show hadn't fully committed one way or another.

Now, let me also say, it doesn't matter. Like, it's a sign of a successful televised enterprise if a giant twist going either way doesn't actually affect your enjoyment of it. Right. It was fine. But I couldn't tell if it was just, as you said, clearly her voice, clearly her prominence in the show,

if that was what was giving it away, or the fact that, like, look at the IMDB page of not the character's names, but just like the star meter, you know what I mean? Like, that was clearly the spot for an actor of her caliber to be on the show. So I was not surprised. So that said, I kind of appreciate,

appreciated the almost nonchalance of the reveal. Like I thought that when he put her on the phone with Amy Brennaman's character, Zoe, if they drew it out past that, I was like, I think it's going to begin to become a thing where they're going to have to hide the ball so much that too much of the storytelling energy is going to be devoted to it to make it worthwhile. I was glad they did the reveal then. But that said, it's a, it's always interesting to sense what the creators think they know more of than the audience, you know, and how they, you know, and how they. they're spacing it out because I'm sure this was a subject of much debate. Like, is the audience with us? Are they aware of it? I wonder if they thought this was some great mystery in that moment would be a giant aha.

Maybe it was for some people in the audience or some people listening to us. But I was fine with it. I like the idea of her being embedded with Lithgow. And I was happy to have it off the books, honestly. I didn't want them to keep trying to hide that. Yeah, like this third episode was very evenly balanced, I thought, between, you know, the various, like, tentacles of the show. So you had the Amy Brennam and Jeff Bridges' relationship.

You also had a starting to expand the world and, like, bring in the Julian character or the hitman. So, like, you're starting to get more characters. You were also getting these flashbacks. And I wanted to ask you what you thought, how you thought that they were treating, or not treating, but how they were handling these flashback sequences that kind of go into the relationship between Dan Chase and his. his wife or a student wife. I had mixed feelings. Let me say overall, I found this episode to be a slight step down from the first two. And I don't want to blame Greg Yatanis for that. He took over

his director for this episode. I think he did a few. I think he's one of the best TV directors working. He was essentially the Boots on the Ground showrunner of one of my favorite unheralded shows, Banshee. It's one of the best action directors on TV. And he also did Alph Corey, another show that we love that was ended too soon. And so you could tell his touch in the kitchen fight, you know, at Zoe's house. I thought that was just brilliantly staged. That said, I think the reason why the episode wasn't as strong for me was because for all of the continued presence of what I think the show does best, which is this sort of subtle, thoughtful,

high-class world expansion, like opening the show with the other half of the phone call, you know? And it's Ben Gakhanabi, who we love from The Wire. And The Deuce, yeah. And the Deuce and him, you know, being a kind person in that moment. It's just wonderful. You know, that's just great character stuff. That I loved. And that's what I think the show does really well.

And the overlap of that phone call from the previous episode to this was really awesome. But I think as a show like this goes on, so remember last week we were talking about how much we loved it and we talked about how there's just some expected nonsense, you know, in genre stories that you just kind of like, it doesn't really matter. I'm not as interested in what was going on in Afghanistan in the past. This episode is the one where you started to feel the weight of some inevitable story choices. And the two things I mean specifically are one, Amy Brennam and Zoe having to have the, You lied to me, my God, scene, which Amy Brennan plays the hell out of. But I thought it was really effective because of the character work they had done with her previously. And to kind of be like, this is somebody who's had some emotional problems over the course of her life,

has had a marriage fall apart, is kind of teetering and has this brief snapshot of stability. and or romance and it's immediately chopped down. Like I thought that that was a really good example of making personal backstory worth it because it plays into action. I agree. I think that's very well said. And I think that what it also does

is set up something that I think I and the audience needs to be open for, which is Dan Chase, maybe not a great guy. Do you know what I mean? Like in a way that is worthwhile, good for this type of storytelling. You know, I think there's an interesting dynamic at work where, and it hasn't happened in the past yet, but we know that it happened,

where he has essentially for either romantic or ego-driven, you know, savior complex reasons, destroyed the lives or at least violently uprooted the lives of two women. Yeah. And that is an interesting thing. And his daughter's complicity in that and being like, go with my dad, he's a great guy. You know, I know that he keeps up to date with his Cialis prescription. Like that was sort of a very strange scene in, in relation to that.

So you're right. My dad, the stick man? Is that what I like? One time, my dad threw a football through a tire swing, and I knew. In our old house in New England, we had two bathtubs outside, and they were next to each other. Okay, so that scene. The other thing that I was just less enamored with, and I'm curious what your temperature was on it, is the flashbacks.

Like, I think Bill Heck is doing a decent old version of him, you know, but, you know, But he looks exactly like him if you look at young Jeff Bridges pictures. He's, it's really well. Of which I have 150 on my wall right now. They look great behind. It looks like the fucking homeland court board. Except there's nothing crazy about it. All the red string is just in hearts.

I don't say, I mean, it's just to say like, I understand why it's there. I'm just less interested in it. I, you know, I guess I'm glad he's on the move again. You know, I think that, that in of and of itself is more interesting to me. I guess what I would say, if I had a critique of the. Afghanistan stuff is that the stately or somewhat mannered version of the way that the characters are written in the contemporary storyline where it feels very kind of very unique but it almost like throws you off kilter with its pacing and its rhythms and its tempo in the Afghanistan

scenes it feels almost falsely theatrical and stagey to watch people talk about like why do you come here to my village kind of stuff. And it's like, all right, you know, I think this is like, it doesn't feel very lived in, I guess is what I'm saying. It's also expository because we already know what happened. We don't know what the betrayal was or how it went down. And so I think those flashbacks might be a little more interesting. And I'm sure they're coming in this week's episode.

But like, you know, it's really just backfilling. So this is what I mean by like, you kind of have to, that's, you bought a ticket for the ride and that's going to be part of the ride. it's really not a fundamental criticism because I just think the overall project is just really classy. You know, it's really classy. Now, I do have to ask you about the end

because, so the episode ends with, he has made it away, he's shot out a drone with a sniper rifle, and there's no sign of Zoe, and he opens the trunk. And so the implication is she's in there one way or another, but does she have a pulse when, he opens the trunk.

And this is why you begin to admire the construction of the show, because I don't even think we had a moment to talk about. But the brief fantasy almost makes it seem like it's something he wanted, but that he killed her, daydream. Yeah. Because he knew he was getting busted one way or another by these cops, whether it was in the moment or whether it would be, you know, be a hit on some sort of CIA scanner.

He has this momentary flash of shooting everyone, including Zoe. And it was incredibly staged. and took my breath away and did the thing that I think it should have done, which is, this is an episode two, where I was like, oh, this is the show? And I was like, okay with it until it reset. And it also benefited, I mean, that would be really fucked up,

and I think it would be hard to be like, hope the old man gets away. Like, I think we were happy. But they were playing with it. It benefited from recent TV history, too, because there have been a couple of examples, which I won't name just in case people want to check out these shows,

where a seemingly main character in the beginning of the show is killed early. And you're like, oh, my God, like, I thought this person was in this. So, yes, I guess that the use of fantasy being introduced to the show allows for the possibility that something it could be happening. You know, they introduced... But not just the entrance of fantasy, the entrance of him being willing to kill her. Yeah, right? Absolutely.

That sets us up here. The one ways I hope that the show kind of stays away from is they spent a fair amount of time. the beginning of the season or series, dabbling in whether or not this guy is experiencing any kind of cognitive decline. And, you know, that could actually be exacerbating some of his perceptions of the world. For a second when the Emily character is revealed, I was kind of like, is this real? Is this real? There was a part of me that was like, to what extent is some of this happening in his head or is she pretending to be his daughter or something? But I'm fairly certain that this is how they're playing it

and that it's relatively straight. But I don't want to forget that thread because they spent so much time in the beginning of the show talking about his wife and talking about her demise and then like what could be kind of going on with him as he's sort of being like, I want to stay in front of this. I do love that that's playing through it. But I also want to talk about one last thing before we move on

that I think is having an effect on the show and how I'm watching it. And I'm wondering if you have the same thing, which is kind of an interesting. comeback for title sequences or title cards. The old man has this very beautiful, stately, almost like, baroque image, right, at the top of every episode. And it really sets the tone in a way that is surprising to me. It's almost nothing.

It's not like there's music that goes along with it. It's not a long opening thing. But something about that framing is such a choice that I think it is affecting how I'm watching it. You know, I used the word classy five minutes ago, and maybe it's only because of that. Ozark did that too. Yeah, Ozark with just like the title card with a couple of symbols that would become, you know, apparent throughout the episode itself. I just don't. TV creators who listen to this don't waste the opportunity.

You know, you can communicate something. I mean, winning time did a great job. Succession obviously holds the current belt for it and bucking the tradition of, you know, skip credits. You don't want someone hitting skip credits. You want to give people something that is relevant and energy. I have to admit, speaking of more traditional, although very high end credits, so they've been showing

Thrones on HBO, like just full seasons during a day in anticipation of House of the Dragon. And season one was on over the weekend, and I watched Baylor like one and a half times, just while I was also flipping between that and like golf or like reading or whatever.

And I watched the credit sequence both times, like, without like getting up to get it. It got you? It got you back? Oh, yeah. The music in general for that is just so iconic. But yeah, like, I was really sort of swept away by it. I forgot how good that mid first season gets, you know? Yeah, I get. Oh, for sure. But I just even on. From like when Ned gets captured on, you know, and like the Rob stuff is really starting to get going and John's in the wall. Like it's, it's hot. That's also, and, you know, it doesn't seem like a natural transition. to something like the bear, but one of the unique pleasures of TV, right,

is that mid-season, oh, you were serious about that? Yeah. Not specifically the Ned thing, but like when it starts to like speed up, just when you think you, because that whole first episode is always about drawing you in and making you comfortable, and then you're like,

okay, I guess I'll stay on this journey. But then that thing that, you know, expert showrunners can do in episode five or six where it's like, oh, no, you thought this was a bus. This is crazy taxi. Yeah. And you've committed. So let's talk a little bit about the boys, which I think if I had one critique of the boys this season,

is that it hasn't found that gear shift yet, that gear change yet. I think that the introduction of Soldier Boy is supposed to be that, played by Jensen Ackles, who worked with Eric Kripke on Supernatural for quite a long time, and now is playing this kind of debased Captain America character who was Homelander before homelander and has now been I guess unfrozen or rescued or unintentionally set free

from this facility in Russia and now is causing havoc but he's like he's our weapon you know he's a bastard but he's our bastard for the members of the boys and they continue to make these compromises in various ways whether it's the abuse of using the V24

stuff to let them be superheroes for a day. There is obviously like there's a little bit of a breaking apart going on and how far these people will be willing to go. But even, I guess if you're a show that has a person who has a sexual member that looks like a Python and it floats across the screen. I'd like that you're open to the possibility if one of our listeners fit the bill. Go on. I don't want to discriminate. No, we're all welcome here. But if that's something that just happens in the every day of your show, where's the ceiling? You know, like, where is the ceiling that

you break through. And even when Soldier Boy and Homelander and Butcher kind of converge on one another, finally for the sort of, I think, appetizer showdown that will eventually get a bigger one, it didn't feel as momentous as I thought it was going to feel. I feel like because this show has always got the volume turned all the way up, yes. Sometimes I can't make my stereo get any louder. I think that's a very good point.

I know I sound like I'm in spinal tap. Well, I think there's two things to consider. One is one of the unique things, and I think honestly appealing things about the boys, is that from the first episode, it ran as fast as A-Train. And it managed to do that, like going super fast and super extreme while doing the world-building almost behind them. You know, it was doing both at the same time. If this was a different show, if it was pitched differently, if it was run by different

people, if they had more episodes per season, there would be a lot of. lot more of bricklaying, you know, and so you would understand the ceiling and the shape of things and who does what, when. And I think that I kind of appreciate that it never did that, but there are times in each season where I'm like, I know why they don't have three more episodes, but I kind of feel like they could have benefited from it. And certainly I would have enjoyed it. I think the other thing to keep to keep in mind is that the central tension of this season isn't directly connected to the emotional well-being of any of our characters, except in an almost causal way.

So the obsession of their quest has led Huey and Starlight to break up. But that has happened now at the end of episode six with new drama and tension put into the show this season, injected like temporary V. You know what I mean? Right. It's hard to swap that in for last. season, which was Butcher's son and wife are still, butchers wife is still alive and she has a son.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Like that is, that's everything. That was a, that was a foundational myth and emotional plank of the show. And it, you know, took it to its extreme as the show does. So instead we have these sort of smaller stories, the, the, the M.M storyline in which Lazalanza is playing really well, and I'm very compelled by, is still, what. we've now learned something about him and what's he going to do about it? You know, it hasn't been

like three seasons of when's he going to have a chance to take on Soldier Boy a character we learned about five episodes ago. So I think that you're starting to feel that, you know. And I wonder though, but I still think, and I don't know if we'll feel this way after the next two episodes, to me, this has still been the best season just because of the confidence of the storytelling and my enjoyment of being there. But it does lack that central. We're coming out of the gate here a little like lukewarm on two shows that I think we'll still wind up on our 10 best list. Yeah, I love these shows. Maybe we should have started with The Bear and been like lighting ourselves on fire with how excited we were about the art of television.

But like, I will say, like, it's weird to watch the orgy scene in the hero gasm episode and just be like, yeah, that feels like part for the course for the boys. I think that they definitely treat it like they are topping themselves. I would, you know, but like it is. Well, to be clear, some people were topping in that scene. So you were wrong. If you're a superhero, you can do both at the same time. You know, if you're a soup, you can do, yeah. I agree.

You know, I think it's fun. And I think there are viewers who think it's fun. And if you go on social media, and I've said this before, this is not a way to judge a show. But these people seem to love each other. Like, if you follow any of the actors. Your parisocial relationship with the people and the boys is really funny to be. They seem to really enjoy being in Toronto together. It's just like Aaron Moriarty is just like, finally, I can show you these 19 selfies with superhero

dildos that I took. Like, great, I'm happy. It's like, who doesn't want to have a good time at work? But that isn't, you know, what I watch the show for necessarily. And instead, though, it's important to highlight the things that it still manages to do well in the traditional sense, like Huey is naked and at a superhero orgy in Vermont, I want to say. and he confronts A-Train and A-Train because of his journey up to this exact moment does the thing we don't expect and apologizes.

Now, no social mores were broken. They do that at the origin, right? Yes, so exactly. Like, that is, that's TV storytelling, man. That was the bricklaying. And that's where it got us. And I didn't expect it. And then I was like, oh, yeah, that's where he is in his journey.

And we've been watching it. And you get that kind of other uniquely TV feeling of, it's kind of like a, you know, completing a circuit, a feeling of satisfaction. That's really well done and intricately done. And then to sort of hide that like a shrinking superhero hides himself inside the reproductive organs of other people at Theorgy. Is this metaphor going to work? I like it. Should I bail?

That is impressive to me. I also think Jensen Eccles, an actor whom I have never seen because he's spent the last two decades on a show that I've never watched. I'm sorry, I know people love it. He's awesome in this part. Yeah, he definitely, it's a part he seems like very suited to fit. I did not watch much. I think I've seen a couple of episodes of Supernatural, like when it's just like on TNT before basketball, no disrespect to supernatural. I'm sure.

Obviously, if it ran for 14 seasons, it had. Don't we all have things like that? Like the only time I've ever seen parts of episodes of Bones were in the waiting rooms at various like medical specialist office. And I don't mean like your GP, but like one time I thought I broke a. toe and I had to go to a foot doctor and I watched like almost a full episode of bones. Well, I think that there's not to be pedantic about it, but I think there's a difference between like the house bones and then law and orders and like the police and medical procedural or mysteries versus, I mean, I know supernatural was essentially like what if X-Files was hot,

you know, or something like that, which I know some people think Mulder and Scully Rob. XXX-X-Files. The CW way of like making the plot density of show. the point, you know, right, where like that whole, because I, have you ever, like, watching those Aeroverse shows or anything like that? Like, any of the brulantey stuff? In the beginning, I mean, I, back when, for Granland times, I was covering this stuff, and I watched a lot of the first season of Aero and thought it was very good. And then jumped off the train. Well, he's, Jen Zand Ackles, good job. Where to go. Good job by you.

But, again, good job by everyone. I think that's why I have that. I love that you said parisocial. I think that's kind of what it is because I enjoy them. And I do, you vibe off of them enjoying it too. I'm trying to think of what show I have the most kind of like I want to know how the people who made the show are like feel about one another. Because there are some where they really try to like, like

for stranger things. I think the interactions or the you know the sort of gambling that the people in stranger things do out there throughout the world is kind of what the point is. I think it's how they sell the show. I think for me it's not 1883.

Tim and Faith just kind of know. What's up with them? I think for me it's not, it's rarely something like the boys, which would be fine if it was a paycheck job, you know, because it's a huge, noisy success. I think, and this is maybe our segue, truly the best thing, and maybe this is also a callback to our love of indie rock or smaller bands. It's just like when, like when the crew of the bear got together in Chicago. And I thought they filmed this like a year ago. I think they filmed it this winter. They filmed it like a couple months ago.

So the fact that they turned it around and posed this quickly. is jaw-dropping to me. But the fact that they all decamped to Chicago to work on a question mark, and then clearly took a lot of pride in being that small, like a kitchen crew, a kitchen brigade against the world.

That's what I like. They were all pretty psyched to have gone through this together and then get to share it with the world. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts.

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Actual prices may vary, limited time offer. We've been itching to talk about this. Should we just talk about it? Yeah. Let's do it. The way I thought we could do this is I went ahead and wrote down my seven favorite things about the bear. Now, these are not the complete picture of the bear, and I want you to just jump in and take us in every other direction you want to go in? Can we, before you even do that, can we just set the table to say this is inaccurate, probably small sample size, we are not

reporters, but this show seems to have broken through, not just because we love it, and we would be talking about it and championing it anyway. But in the day since it premiered last week, look, our Facebook group has many opinions and many members, but there appear to be only posts about the bear from people who have not just discovered it, but watch the whole thing in a day. I think there is like a couple of people who are like, I don't like food, but I like the show.

Like there is, we've kind of hit that level of like. But that means it's reaching a different audience. Right. So that, but then also just being, I mean, I am, again, I am also not Mr. Saturday Night, but being as in the world as I can be and talking to people, many of whom are in the industry, people are talking.

No, I didn't mean that as a brag. Like people who are like... I didn't think it was a brag. I was just like that is like quite an echo chamber. I know. But people are just watching it and loving it and responding to it. People, you know, who make very different things or have very different relationships to either FX or Hulu or content or whatever,

it seems to be breaking through. And I think that's also fueling our enthusiasm because, God, we want stuff to break through. Yeah. In this impossible. moment for when grown men come up to us on the street with tears in their eyes and they say thank you for introducing me to the bear it makes everything worth it makes all all all the podcasting that's what we do it for and then they say whoa that's weird to hear chris's voice come out of your mouth i've always mixed

you guys up thank you for your service yeah do you want to say anything generally speaking about it or should i run through these and we can kind of jump off each one only to say i finish the season also and i adore the show and i think it's a small miracle and I found it incredibly moving. I'm just having that experience that I think you had as well, which is, oh, this is exciting. Oh, this is definitely going to be in the conversation for my favorite shows of the year to what's going to beat this has been quite a journey.

So let's go through it. Let's go through the list your way. Okay. And I imagine we'll touch on everything. One of the number one things that I love about this show is because of this show it chose not to be. And that is the episode, I believe it's dogs. I think it's the fourth episode where Carmen Ritchie go off to the suburbs.

and do a cookout for Cicero, played by Oliver Platt. A birthday party, right? And for a bunch of kids, and the kids wind up being drugged. Yeah, that wasn't my favorite part, but go on. But that was a broader comic episode, I thought. Like, you know what I mean?

That was like, you do the pilot, the pilot's super intense. The second episode is super intense. It's got a certain filmic style. It's got a certain feel to it. And then that third episode comes, and it's like almost, a vestige of a different time of TV making of,

what if this has to be either 12 or 22 episodes? Like, what adventures can these people have out in the world? And Richie and Karm Cook for Kids is like a thing that goes up on the whiteboard. And somebody's like, that sounds like a good idea. We should do that. That's an episode. Yeah. Easy.

And I thought it was very good and very funny. And I didn't mind the kids getting zanned out. But, like, it wasn't part of it. it didn't, at the end of it, it didn't feel essential to the show itself, you know? Mm-hmm. I guess we learn a little bit about who Cicero is and their relationship to them. Yeah. But to me, it was still kind of like a little bit off the track.

Do you agree with that? I think that in context now, having seen all of them, it definitely is an outlier. And I think I'm in agreement with you thinking of it as I'm glad that it was an outlier. That said, happy to have it. Happy to have it. Because the balance of one of the other impressive things about this is, And you guys already know this. I can't help it.

I'm going to be using food metaphors. This show is expertly coursed out. You know, and to spend time with them at that moment is really worthwhile for the frenzy that's to come. You know, just to continue to do the work, explain the relationship, show the relationship, make us understand the relationship so that when everything hits the fan, we don't need a reminder, you know, we don't need, we, we have the shorthand because we've lived with them. And I think that that's just, it's a great episode in and of itself, but I think it's really worth considering in the context of the entire piece. You're right. Second thing that, um, I loved about the show is

Evan Moss-Back's greetings to people, specifically, specifically when he goes, what's up, you fucking replicants to the kitchen staff? Because I really like the idea of Richie being a big Blade Runner guy. And if he's not a Blade Runner guy, I don't really know why he was calling them all replicants. So either way, this is just an opportunity for us to talk about Evan Moss Backrack. Don't you think that he's probably a Blade Runner 2049 guy

and doesn't know there was another one? He was like, do you see Gosling? It's got this movie Blade Runner. I said this the other day, and I found this like really bracing, and there's no way to say this without being slightly snobby, but like Facebook keeps suggesting I join groups that I have no interest in. like people who own leaf blowers,

whatever, like I don't really know where this comes from, but one of them was just a group called movie fans. I'm like, cool. I like movies.

And all the posts are like, what are your guys' top six favorite Ryan Reynolds movies? I'll go first. All the Deadpool movies, I don't know any others. I'm like, oh,

that's what movies are. Really worry about you that you're like, I have cleaned Twitter out of my system. Yes. And yet you go back on Facebook. I know.

And I'm like, one day I'll be like, Chris, you know, I just feel like this January 6th thing. It's kind of being, kind of being like blown out of proportion. No, but just to say, like, I feel like Richie is in this movie group. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I love him for it.

Yeah, look, we said this last week. I'll say it again. Like, this might be the best performance on TV this year other than the star which this character orbits, which is John Bernthal. Yeah. His performance and we own the city is really tough to, tough to. What does he say to the crowd of guys outside of the, the hot dog place in the opening the first episode

and the mega, was he called him fucking cucks? Like what does he say to it? He says a lot of things. He says a lot of things that I, you know, as you and Kaya know, my older daughter's in the room with me,

so I'm not going to do my riche imitation. That's right. Because she, I only showed her the latter, the later episodes, you know, because I just feel like for her, the action is the juice.

Yeah. Fox. So, no. But his performance is such a titanic thing of beauty. He is. holy that person and his hunger and his ego and his sadness are just so always present while being that funny. I mean, it's just, it's awesome. I will just say also say that the sort of slight, I mean, I guess it's his restaurant so you can do what he wants, but this, he is a perfect

smoking inside guy. A real perfect like smokes wherever he wants guy. And it really adds to the character, which brings me to my next thing that I love, which is allowing little details. to exist outside of the wrath of Chekhov. By which I mean, lots of times in TV writing, it's like you can really only include certain things unless they actually go towards a important plot point. And in this show,

they kind of have it both ways. Like some of these things do wind up being important, but really like, we don't ever get to see why Carmen has all this rare denim in his oven, you know? Great point. Richie, his cocaine dealing is not a, major factor in this show.

It's not, you know, like, why he goes to jail, for instance. You know, like, there's, it's, it's just a thing that he does that he explains. Like, I had to do this to get us through COVID. And, you know, and it's like, whose idea was this? And he's like, who do you think? It's, I think it's supposed to, like, elucidate, like, illuminate, like, a darker element to Mikey towards the end. Yes.

First of all, congratulations to the universe of the bear for getting through COVID. Yes. I think that's great. Great look for them. Hope to join you someday. Two, I'm glad you phrased it that way because the thing that I wanted to mention that I was really impressed by was we know from being humans in the world that kitchens, like many industries, but particularly restaurant kitchens are rife with substance abuse and substance abuse issues. And, you know, for example, the chef Maddie Matheson, who is a consultant on the show and plays feck on the show, struggled mightily and famously with substances. I was really grateful that Karmie, apparently not drinking.

Well, he's in N.A. Right. Like Al-Anon, brother. Yeah. Well, is he in it or is he there because his brother wasn't at it? It's unclear, right? But clearly he's had stresses and struggles. And it was so nice for that not to be the driver of the season.

You know, maybe it's coming. Maybe it never will be mentioned again. But again, it's just this kind of, like, impressive coursing and pacing. There just wasn't the real estate for that because it would take. away from the other characters would take away from the Michael story, which is important, even though he's only present in that one scene. You know, like, it's something else that's on the shell for in the walk-in, let's say, for them to revisit.

But it just simply wasn't relevant here, and I was grateful for it. I also just, I think that one of my favorite little things was the off-screen presence of Sidney's dad because she's living with him after his, she's living with him after her catering company has kind of collapsed. She seeks out Karmie because she's had like the best meal in her life was cooked by Karm. She wants to work with him. And she wants to create change in the kitchen, you know, and create like a more kind of humane way to work in kitchens. But like the dad thing is just kind of in the background.

I think he gets mentioned briefly when she's taught. Either she and Karm or she and Marcus are talking about families, right? It comes up twice with Karm and with Marcus. Okay. Yeah, but it's another thing that's there. But it's not like, I do this because my dad wanted me to or didn't want me to, and that's why, you know, like, yeah. The show really wisely chooses its moments to leave the kitchen. You know, the Sydney Marcosine, which is just lovely later in the season, is really important and a wonderful palate cleanser, if you will.

But it also happens there because they've both left. So they're out of the kitchen. Otherwise, there's this incredible accomplishment where we know these people intimately, the way that they would know each other in that when people are pushed to their extremes, character reveals itself good and very often very bad or ugly. Right. So when Tina brings her son,

it's answering a question that we kind of already knew the answer to about who she might be. And it doesn't go out of its way to make a big deal about it. But we know that she is a loving person. We know that she has this affection for Michael and for Richie. And so for her to also be a mother. and then even though it's abusive and insane to think that somehow this would help her son,

it's very subtle, right? But it's really appropriate. Yeah, I thought that it was just a lovely bit of character work and I really like what you're saying about when they leave the kitchen. Speaking of the kitchen, I want to just say, and I'm sure you agree with me here, but the one-er episode just works.

It's going to be one of the extraordinary episodes of TV from the year. It's basically a single take and an incredibly stressful moment for the kitchen where everything winds up building up building up and building up and then exploding. I talked to Jeremy Allen White. I guess it was last week when he, and he told me that they basically did it like four times

and that it was like just, they just run through it and that, yes, it's stressful. But all the stress that they felt about not screwing up the shot is also how these people are feeling about not screwing up the meals. And there was something about the sustained drama of that episode that I thought was very appropriate to the story at that point. in the season. There's, I'm sure, lots of times when people are like, I want to do this with the camera, I want to do that with the camera. And it's kind of like, for sure, that is going to look

cool, but it has nothing to do with what the story is, what's on screen. Most of the time, it's like that. So to see them take such a huge creative risk, or not even creative risk, but logistical risk in making the show and have it pay off not only in like sort of a superficial, like, great shot, dog, but also, wow, that really good. gave me a different feeling for how this kitchen is. It's a triumph. And again, kind of like we were saying before with the old man and the way it does exposition or whatever,

it's a triumph because you can call that episode brilliant without noticing that it's technically God level. You know what I mean? Like it works in all ways. And so shout to Christopher Storer, who is the creator of the show, co-show runner with Joanna Callow, whose name we should say,

because I think she was hugely important as well. And he directed this episode. And it suits it. You know, I mean, I am both from my professional experience and just from TV watching, like, really allergic to camera showing off, camera tricks, you know, like trying to impress something that is divorced from story or emotion or character. And this earned it and deserved it. You know, it's exactly what you said. Like the tension of the moment merited that kind of full boil. and I don't know

I mean, I don't know how they did it but it's also so cool that like obviously they couldn't have made it longer but you see when you look at the rundown of episodes it's noticeably shorter than the others. Yeah, absolutely. And it does not feel shorter. It is that I mean it is an achievement

by everyone that I hope is going to be celebrated and heralded. Like that's the one people should be talking about. But again, it's like a Dainu thing. Like the show didn't need to technically dazzle me in the penultimate episode for this to probably be my favorite thing of the year. But man, it did that too. Yeah. Three more things. The cameos. Yep. They're amazing. And yet they never blow the story off course. So most notably, I would say, I don't know if you consider Oliver Plata cameo. He has a sort of more, but a recurring role, I think, rather than like a single scene. Molly Ringwald, absolutely lovely for a moment in the NA meeting, giving a monologue. Joel McHale, briefly seen as the domineering, chef standing over uh jeremy allen white's shoulder at the at the high end new york restaurant

he's working at and then i think it's okay to start talking about this john bernthal as mike who appears in one scene fully and then in the last shot of the of the season so let's start with burnthal i thought it was the sort of first real like i gasped moment of the tv year for me uh You know, I think this is how I'm supposed to feel when, like, Darth Vader and Obi-Wan fight. For me, it was watching John Bernthal prepare, like, the meat dish that he was making. There's a world in which that just doesn't work. You know, there's a world in which that ball just sails right over the wide receiver.

And I think that they knew what they had because you can tell he's washing his hands, and then they start to like, you start to hear the voice and you're like, oh my God, that's John Bernthal's voice. That is John Bernthal's music. And he just basically tells this story

about going out and getting trashed and bumping into Bill Murray. And it is at once like a great moment, but I also think is very specifically a memory. And he is, it's a very warm, warmly shot scene. I think that's how Richie and Karm remember him.

And it's just kind of interesting when Richie tries to tell the same. story to his date and she's just like, cool, good story. Like, it's just like... She's just like you were at a bar at dawn? Yeah, I know. What did you think of Bernthal? I mean, this is also...

You can't control everything when you make a TV show. And there's an element of luck and timing and context. And so for this show to come out with Bernthal in this role right after, and again, the larger world might not share this because we don't know what the ratings for we own the city were. But in the world of this podcast, which is really, all that matters for the next 15 minutes. Yeah. They got the most charismatic shooting star.

They got all fucking Newman. Yeah. Yes. In the universe, to play a character that exists only in one scene of devastating charisma. And they bottled it. Yeah. Or they jarred it.

They canned it, like tomato sauce. It was thrilling. And thrilling because the thing that I wanted to focus on is just the relationship and the wadage between Bernthal and Evan Moss Bachrack in that scene. Because up to that point, Richie is the loudest voice in the room, you know, and is he's pulling focus, as they say. He's not necessarily charismatic as a character, but the performances. Yeah.

In that scene, and this speaks to Evan Moss Bachrach's like generosity and talent as an actor, he's insignificant. He's the loser that Sidney says that he is in that scene, basking in the rays of the only true star. Mm-hmm. And that's so appropriate. So to have these actors who know how to almost like, you know, toggle their dials is awesome. Like who else also, look, you know, very, very happy to see that the family behind the original beef of Chicagoland has some Judaism in it.

That's always nice for me because it makes me feel like centered in the story, which is always the goal. So, oh my God, that was so great. So exciting. Not famous, famous, but exactly right famous. Did you like him being the grace note of the season? Again, like, I'll speak to a word that John Bernthal learned in Hebrew school. It's a Dainu thing. Like, I didn't know that the season was going to go on a journey with such a specific destination.

I didn't need it to. I was already in. For them to have a MacGuffin that was planted successfully and hidden from me to have it feel like that, I'd forgot about the letter. If I'd watched it in a binge, I would not have forgotten about the letter, but I definitely would have been paying attention to the cans of tomato sauce. I can't just think about the pressure that the creators were in with characters that we didn't know yet, that maybe they hadn't even cast.

And they're like, okay, he's going to open the envelope. Oh, God, what's going to be in it? And maybe, like, in their final draft folders, there's, like, three pages of monologues of Bernthal's voice, you know, before they finally realize it should just be two sentences. Yeah, right. And that the two sentences are going to make Jeremy Allen White and your humble narrator weep. It was beautiful because it was about him and it always was but you get distracted and then you remember and it worked. God, they landed that in a way. I didn't know the plane was landing yet and then

it was a perfect landing. So the other reason why you probably started to weep was because Radiohead's Letdown was playing at that moment. Oh boy. And the needle drops in this show are extraordinary. That's another thing that I love the second or last thing. Just some of my favorites, obviously letdown is one of my favorite radio. Radiohead songs, two great Wilco songs via Chicago and Spider's Kid Smoke, and just the fucking heavy dollop of Kim Deal in this show, elite, including Saints, right? Yes, I got a jump on this. So you misspoke earlier.

You said Letdown was one of the best radiohead songs. Letdown is the single best radio head song. I will die on that hill. I have a hard time articulating why this was so brilliant and just like gut punching. It was beautiful in the scene. But I want to say there's something... I just want to jump in and say I would throw some votes towards idiotic or exit music. But go ahead.

What about Reckoner? There's a lot of good radio. Low-key. Yeah, great band. But for me, it's always that one. And, you know, Christor who created the show, he's listed as one of the music supervisors, so you know this was personal. And you know that he probably hoped to end with a song or wrote with this in mind.

It wasn't one of the things where someone came in later and was like, I got a license. By the way, that's not a cheap. It's not a cheap sink, as they say. So the thing that I find really incredible about it is there's a kind of confident and almost uncool shamelessness about it. Like, I just feel like so many people would walk up to the precipice of being like, I'm going to use this devastating, famous radiohead song and be like, we could find an alt. We could find something a little cooler, a little more underground that won't have the connections with the band or the history of knowing the song for 20 plus years, 25 years now. but they went for it. You know what I mean? And there was something about just the emotion of choosing that song and owning it

that I found really palpable and really moving. Like it worked doubly well for that reason. Yeah. My last thing, and we kind of saved this, it speaks very highly of this show that I think that we haven't really like carved out a moment to talk specifically about Jeremy Allen White when he is at the center of it. But I thought that the show did a great job with his character, specifically and then like just totally cleared out to the point of almost like transcendent

uncomfort to let him have his monologue in the eighth episode. And to the point where you're like, okay, so this will be like the two minutes and then he goes back to the restaurant and you're like, no, this is, this is like an extensive lived in experiential kind of thing. And he's got fireworks going on all over the place throughout this season. Backerac, we haven't even really talked about how incredible AEDEBRI is, Etabiri is, because she basically is like kind of like the heart of this show throughout Marcus' incredible character. Abby Elliott on the margins, like there's no one back.

Yeah, Karmie is like kind of like gripping the wheel too tight in the middle of this show. And then he kind of just gets to let it flow out of them at the end. And I just thought the way that the show decided how to pick and choose its punches and when to throw them was really effective in this way. I'm really glad you're ending with him because it feels really ungenerous to be, you know, dousing Eben Moss-Backack with praise or even John Bernthal, who's only in it for five minutes total of screen time, when the show only works because of one of the more remarkable and unique performances that you're going to see on TV. I mean, he is such an unconventional TV star from just the way he looks to his intention. to his sort of sideways approach to lines. Like, he is physical, and I don't know his acting method, but he seems method. No, I mean, he kind of reminds me of Dustin Hoffman, honestly.

Like, he looks a little bit like it. He kind of, like, has that energy, you know, early Dustin Hoffman. He's small but coiled, you know, and like physical and present and can just anchor a scene. And you understand why everything is revolving around him. You understand why Sydney and everyone is nervous. around him or a little bit afraid of him. And you love him. He's not particularly warm or kind to anyone, right?

I don't think he's supposed to be able, I mean, I think it's like a guy who's really struggling to articulate what's going on inside him. And he might not have like that vocabulary. You can express himself through pan sauces, but not words, you know? And how many actors earn that trust from you as an audience so that you understand the way people in there, you know, again, there's so much of this show that is just like, this restaurant means something.

This family has gone through some stuff. Okay. Well, show me, don't tell me. And I don't think it just simply doesn't work without that performance. And like, kudos to him not only for just tearing it to pieces. But like, I just think that he's done, he chose this, you know, and it chose him. But like, that moment where you're like, yeah, I can, this is the right place for me to be right now. You know, where I am in my career, what interests me.

It's remarkable. And then to use that as a pivot just to say, like, you know, I've seen some people say, like, this is a perfect season of television. I'd be good. Well, what's even better is it is a perfect season of television. It could be done. Yeah. But it's awesome that it's not. And also, I mean, it hasn't been renewed yet.

I think it will be. The what next question is like, oh, gosh, like this could go in so many different places. It's these other little things, like I was saying before. Like, by the time you get to episode six, seven, I'm like, the bear is a weird name for this. Like Terriers was a weird name for show about investment. But I guess it's his nickname and, you know, coiled animalistic rage inside of him. Fine. No, you get to the end.

It's what the restaurant is going to be. So this was a prelude to the next part of the story. It also helped address the thing that was going to be my one nitpick, which was, what restaurant are they working in? I was just confused because it seemed like it was still a grungy takeout place. No disrespect. I love grungy takeout places. But then they were also roasting whole chickens and seemed to constantly then adding cake to the menu.

and like how much was different night to night versus what they were doing. They seemed to be doing two things at once, which I guess became part of the story that they were moving too many different directions. But now, thanks to the hidden money, now they can just commit, right? Right. I mean, I think that like, is that just Cicero's money? And don't they just owe Cicero that money? Like, there is a lot of, like, I think that there's plenty. Was there enough money there to pay Cicero back and now do what they want?

I don't know. I mean, that was a lot of money, but I don't know how much. how much I don't understand I think that there's a big mystery as to like yes, like addictive behavior

is very erratic but was Bernthal just like borrowing tons of cash and then hiding it because he knew he was doomed like I really want to know you know.

Wasn't it cool though the way the show just earned and operated under that code that we've seen like when you read Tony Bourdain books or watch a show

there's a certain code in the kitchen that I think those of us who are definitely not capable of participating in that world really like and respect which is

but like you will be destroyed, hopefully not in a violent or an appropriate way, but like what's left is the real you and people will see you. Yes. You know, you can be seen. And that part with Sydney and Seven is like, I see you, Richie for what you are. And then the B side of that story being her showing up in a moment of insanity and then being like, grab your apron. Like you don't need to say more than that.

Or even when, when Carmie says to Marcus, like, good job in the donut. I wasn't appropriate. Let's go. Like there's something really, I don't know whether it's like almost sports movie about it are like, there's something's very beautiful about the things that are upset. It definitely has like a little bit of the like, the team gets back together for the big game. I mean, it's, it's, you're, you're onto something there. But then they're making pasta.

It's so, so beautiful. Like that was just such like a, that's what the show is. That's when the metaphor works. Yeah, it's like, it's just people seeking out new families is like among like my favorite basically like experiment, like dramatic sort of experiments. I love it when like somebody's just like these people, they're all broken in some way that they need some sort of community. and this is how they find it.

That's why I love the others from Lost, you know? Those guys just making a community. The tailies, too. Chris Dorr and Joanna Callow just like, you know, we love restaurants, we love food stories, we love this world, and no one could crack it for TV. And these guys just did it. It's cool.

It's just, let us have this one. This is a good story and a great show. So I will not be on Thursday show. No. I will be away. So Andy, whatever you have cooking, surprises abound. Yeah, you don't know what's in these cans.

Okay. It's going to be a rich one. Thanks for talking to me today. Well, I'll be back next. Well, I won't be back next Monday because that's July 4th. So I won't be back for two episodes or two. You've earned it. A week.

Yeah, got to go get external. You know, I got to go find my swing thoughts. Kaya, thank you so much for producing Kaya McMullen. It was our producer today, as always. And Andy will be back with you on Thursday. Safe Travels, Bransky.