The Watch - 'Shogun' Episode 6 and the British TV Landscape With Flo Lloyd-Hughes

Episode Date: March 28, 2024

Chris and Andy break down the sixth episode of 'Shogun,' talking about their favorite moments from this episode and Anna Sawai's standout performance (1:00). Then, Chris is joined by Flo Lloyd-Hughes, host of The Ringer's 'Counter Pressed,' to talk about British TV-watching habits, including the popularity of 'The Traitors' U.K. (27:17) and what American shows have crossed over to become popular in England this year (44:42). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Flo Lloyd-Hughes Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at The Ringer.com. And at this very moment, I am out with Andy Greenwald. But we do have him on the show today. So Andy and I talked about Shogun, the most recent episode that aired on Tuesday night. Talked about that for about 20 minutes. And then I was joined by a podcaster we have over on the Ringer podcast network named Flo Lloyd Hughes.

And Flo is over in England. She does our women's football pod counterpressed. And she also appears on Ritey's House, which is another one of our football soccer for those who prefer that terminology. Podcasts. And Flo is an avid TV watcher over there as am I sort of like a, I'm kind of an anglophile television fan. I was watching a bunch of trailers for British shows that are coming in the next couple of months and was like, I know what?

I really want to talk about some of this stuff. Obviously, a lot of English TV is available simultaneously on streaming services for American audiences. Some stuff that's on ITV and BBC is limited to coming out on Britbox or Acorn. Sometimes you'll

see it on Amazon, but usually it goes up first run in England. So we have to wait a little bit, just tantalized by YouTube trailers. A couple of shows that I'm really excited about that are coming soon. Passenger, uh, starring One Me Mistako, who was obviously, and we own this city and Loki. That's like going to be on Britbox later this year, but that looks like a really interesting,

kind of true detective-e, but with a little bit more comedy, crime thriller. And then this show, This Town, which I've mentioned a couple of times, airs on BBC this weekend, and that's about Ska and, like, racial relations and city living in Birmingham in the early 80s in England. a bunch of really cool stuff coming from the English market. And I just thought I would be fun to talk to flow about what it's like to watch TV in England, a little bit of, you know, the special relationship between the U.S. and England. It exists in TV as well.

We will be back on Monday with Andy, regular show, and we'll be talking probably about three-body problem, hopefully the last few episodes. And we'll also hit the Gerard Carmichael reality show, which is airing on Max this weekend. So that's the weekend watching plans. I hope everybody has a great weekend. Happy Easter, and we'll see you on Monday. All right, Andy. I'm here, Chris.

Let's do episode six of Shogam. Okay. So this is Ladies of the Willow World. Awesome. Some of my favorite ladies. Truly. Truly. No, this is a very, very interesting episode.

A very interesting episode to put, I wouldn't even call it like a pallet cleanser as much as like a, was it a deepening experience for you? Did you find that this is, A slower episode in some ways, a much more character-based kind of, almost like probing into the minds of some of these other characters

and introducing us to somebody who has just been in the background for most of the season until the last moments of five and now obviously in six gets much more of a standout episode. But it's essentially a portrait of these two women and all the hardships that they've faced over the course of their lives that brings them to still somewhat of an opaque, like opposition point and what Toranaga has to do

with that conflict and why the heir's mother is so dead set on taking him out Mariko's new sense of purpose and mission in her life after she has this conversation with Toranauga at the end

and just a lot of tea house action man never enough tea house action I want to shout out my friend Megan Wong wrote this episode and it was directed by Hiromi Kamata, who is a Japanese-Mexican director. And I don't know if this is my favorite of the season so far, but I absolutely loved it for what it was when it was.

Every week when we've sat down to talk about the show, I think we've talked about the masterful control and timing and deployment. This is something, it's interesting because I feel like when we've had general conversations about big-ticket shows over the last few years, we have rarely lacked things for things to talk about and things that we've loved. But I feel like our conversation has rarely pointed out just the craftsmanship involved in how the information is being delivered to us and how that makes us feel comfortable within the larger moving pieces of the show.

So there could be like a big, you know, okay, Andor is obviously very good at this. But other big shows, I think, have both these, both three body problem, which we're talking about at the moment and Shogun, have been master classes in how to, you know, to bring someone into an unfamiliar world and keep them there. All this is to say, chapter six of 10, the quietest episode to date, not just inside the Willow World Tea House, but also within court. A lot of time spent at the no theater, something that I think, you know, noted theater lover John Blackthorne probably would have appreciated had he been watching

the show. I know, it's too bad. What does he miss most? Theater. Odd drinking vessels. I thought it was just a wonderfully interior episode. And again, we haven't read the book, so I don't know where this stuff falls. But it does seem remarkably set up that there's this action and escape at the beginning from Osaka.

And then they all like huddle up for a couple episodes just to let things marinate and get deeper. And I take it weeks, if not months have gone by while Blackthorn is sort of. And we've had the earthquake. We've had obviously the recovery from the earthquake. So I think a fair amount of time is elaps. I mean, I don't even know how long Buntaro must have taken to get back from... And we'll never know because they didn't show us that. But it's also, it's very convenient that, you know, we are here in Yabashige's fishing fiefdom.

Yeah. And it also happens to be Sin City USA. It happens to be the home of the bunny ranch of feudal Japan. The finest, finest. Kikku's House of Heaven, yeah. Houses the Holy. That was wild. So, right.

So to set the scene, Torinaga, again, all credit is due here to Hiriyuki Sonata, because to play a character who knows everything all the time. Yes, and spends most of his time sitting and looking at other stuff. And being told things that he's just like, that's not true. I'm like, do you have the shooting scripts? You are very confident, sir. But that he immediately diagnoses. John Snow's not dead.

He knows. Yeah, I know. that he basically, he knows everything that's going on in Bravo Shamehouse across the way, that he is just dealing from a different deck, right? He's like, Bontaro, you need to take a leave of absence from your marriage. Yeah. Which I didn't know is possible, but that's wild. And then, and then, how many does he tell Mariko to, like, chill things out with the engine?

That scene where he was like, I need you to take him to the finest cortisone in town. And why did he do that? And I need you to, well, first of all, I think he did it to garrar. that there is no emotional attachment between them, or he wanted to twist the knife to exert his control, right? Being like, you need to continue to work for me. Not with him. Not in like some sort of illicit relationship with a barbarian.

Right. Also, I think he guaranteed that by having her go into the tea house with the engine, that guarantees a three-body problem. See? I've been waiting days for that one. Got no reaction, but it's okay. Someone on a treadmill, maybe in a shower, Maybe Mallory's in the bath relaxing. It's like, respect. He still got it.

No, I think you're in somewhat of a purple patch right now if I got to admit. You know, you are really, you're fucking slamming the goals in. You think? Yes. You had a long-term injury and people were wondering if you'd ever be the same. And honestly, I think Shogun has been your revival. I mean, it's made me and long-form miniseries storytelling on television. We are twinned.

We had a long, really since the early 80s, we've been in a fallow period. So am I, like, Mariko, like translating between the two of you? You're looking at me a little sideways. Yeah. You're helping me execute my goals. Where to start here? Yeah, so it was control. It was control over her and something that she has grown quite accustomed to.

And I thought that these, those scenes in the tea house with Lady Kiku and the negotiation scene is amazing. The reason I mentioned, I called out her. Romi Kamata as the director was I thought that in a way her direction which look in a large scale series like this where showrunners have the final cut and multiple directors work on a show it is challenging to point out moments of individual directorial flourish but I did think a few things stood out and I thought they were well paired with with Megan's script which are those heightened moments of specificity specifically in the negotiation that Merrico does for the night of pleasure, the way that the camera picked up the lacquer teacup when it was picked up, when it was put down.

And it was a insert shot that was style that was continued inside the tea house later when the sake is being poured. And it was a interesting visual rhythmic reminder of every single specific movement is part of the larger tapestry of communication. With the flashback storytelling about Lady Oshiba and Mariko. So I have to be completely honest. I think I, in broad strokes, got it. And I understand sort of where it's going, I think. And obviously, they have an almost, not a mirror image, but they've both, I think, lost their fathers.

So Mariko's father kills her father? I'm going to sit here in front of you, a man who is equally flummoxed by some of the deep backstory of the characters. I was having a hard time with the Ruri who becomes the, Achiba, her backstory, she's told never to come back. Because her father's been killed in Kiyos. And I think from my understanding is that both of them have gone on a similar path of being exiled and then working their way back in, for Oceba, she becomes the consort of the

heir, the consort of the tyco and is able to give him a male error or an error. Which no one else had done. And no one else had done. And that had raised her into this huge level of esteem in society somehow. Or not somehow, but like that's what happens. And then for Mariko, she was exiled because her father. was this traitor traitor and then through the church and through her work like doing that she kind of has gotten back in at least up to like the level where she is like known by Tornaga

and is in these kinds of circles but both of them and again I think it's it's one of the masterful things that the series is doing in taking strands that exist in history that exist in the source material and in the original miniseries and just weaving them to a point of larger prominence which is just the epic amounts of shit that women have to eat in the society even to get back to the table. Yeah. And the suffering they have to go through

and there are these implications and intimations and even some cutaways of being drugged that Achiba was drugged in a variety of ways in order to both sleep with a tycho and then be able to conceive. All of these things that she did to get there

and that's mirrored in Merrico's speech about women are always at war. Yeah. Which Tornaga, he's like, he looks like an Emmy voter in that moment. And he's like, I respect that. Very well said. Very well articulated.

What's torn August top five of 23? For the year? Well, I think that he, I'll put it this way. Definitely no mystery. What if he was just like the boys? I think it would be. Because I think that if you told him it would not be true detective. Well, he's dad.

He's dad, Corey. He probably goes, Bosch Boys, Reacher. I don't know. It's not night country and not because the women are always at war in that show, too. It's because he watched the first episode and he was just like, oh, the townspeople did it. Like he sees the whole. Oh, for sure. Game board.

Yeah. You know, and I think there's no spirit out there. That bores him. Evil is inside. He probably likes live sports, you know? Yeah, me too. Because that's the same. Because you never really know.

Okay, right. So broad strokes. Torquack. Nothing. Please. No, never mind. Broad, broad, broad strokes. Yes.

The backstories of the two women are twin, not just because they clearly knew each other. Yeah. But there are some grudges being born here. Yeah. And to be fair to us, I'll just mention that we're recording this a little bit earlier, this segment of the pod. So we haven't seen a lot of the materials that usually come out after an episode,

which are either interviews with folks who have worked on the show, or like a lot of like sort of more like just so you know this is this and this and this and this. So I think we're flying a little bit blind having seen the episode, but not necessarily done all the like ancillary reading that you can do about each episode. But it's a tribute to the show that I don't think that necessarily matters because we get the broad beats of it, you know? And again, like there's these little, obviously I don't know if our audience is the same. but I'm watching a lot of Shogun and a lot of three-body problem at the same time and admiring them for

similar reasons. And I'm trying to pay attention to in both, there are examples of what, to me, read like a very clear network note or an executive note. And that note often in almost any show is, remind people who this is again, those are important. And particularly in complicated shows like the ones we're talking about, and particularly doubly so in Shogun, you know, which is mostly in a different language, when those lines come up, they always seem like they're coming at the right moment for me. Like, just a little nudge, a little reminder of who this person is, what they mean in that moment, so that we can then appreciate the scene without trying to second screen it or Google something. I'm really, I find that really remarkable.

Even, it's like the throwaway line when Tori Naga's like Lady Ochiba, this and that you know her, America's like, ah, she was Rory to me then. Yes. Okay, just checking. We're on the same page. Okay. So, you know, you've introduced this idea that I think is pretty interesting of. of like Toranaaga's manipulative side.

And like obviously he is running his kid in circles by being like, and Yabashiga too, where he'll be like, whose terrible idea was this? And he's like, actually it was Omis. And he's like, well, Omis are genius. You know, like just to fuck with people. At the end of this episode, you know, each episode of Shogun has this kind of like crescendo that is just incredible.

And we've had earthquakes and we've had cannon attacks. and we've had night escapes and stuff like that. But here we get the revelation, the crescendo, is that Mariko thinks that she's kind of cursed, that she's damaged goods, that her line, that her family is like this outcast patrol. And Kornaga's like, your father actually did the bravest thing possible

by making sure that you weren't going to be impacted by what happened to him. But you've always had this great purpose. purpose that you need to realize you're not this misfit. You're in fact a hero. Now, face value, it's a really beautiful scene. And I thought Anna Swai played it so well. Aniswai is on one. She's fucking great in the show. Like she's so good. And she's actually been on such a great run of like contemporary television. It was worth talking about it in depth. But I just wanted to sort of ask, do you think he's telling her the truth? Or do you think he's

telling her what she needs to hear because he needs someone, there's something about Blackthorn that he needs to keep in play. I think that you're asking the right, and she's the only one to communicate. I think you're asking the right question. I think the truth doesn't matter at this point. I think we spent some time talking last week about the final scene and the significance of Fuji's swords. And when Blackthorne gives these swords to Toranaaga, ultimately what matters in that moment and what I'd like to think is relevant for the conversation about this scene is Toranaaga's nod, which is to say, I know what you're doing. and I know what it is on both levels.

I understand the cosmic joke, an irony of these trash swords being given to me at this moment, but I also know that you are giving me everything that you have, that you have imbued with meaning in this moment. So in a way, he's giving a similar gift here. It clearly resonates. It clearly is what she needs to hear. He's very good at this.

I would also say his talent extends to branding, which seems a couple hundred years before its time. But I feel like the other ideas that the bright boys in the back came up, with like Operation Let's Attack Osaka Castle or Operation Let's Fucking Go for it boys. Please refer to it as its official play call, Operation Crimson Sky. That's what I'm saying.

What a branding triumph. That is, who wouldn't sign up for that? Because if it's just like, hey, I don't really have any better ideas, so let's throw the ball along a lot, that's one, that's like, oh, that's stupid. But if I call it air raid offense. This is what I, this is the point I wanted to make. This is the point I want to make. Like, now I'm interested.

Now I'm going to do it. The flicker in those dude's eyes, when they're told they're going to do Operation Crimson Sky, they are so hype. And by the way, lo-key, one of the master strokes of the show is that whenever the Tornaga and the boys are getting fired up about something, there's always the cut to Blackthorn being like, I suppose. He just had no idea what's going on, which I think is wonderfully done. Yeah, this dude's a master manipulator. He's really good. And he keeps being like, I don't want to be, I do not want to be king or shogun. I do wonder, though, with Crimson Sky.

Like, maybe we go with like Operation like shocking victory. Because Crimson Sky is just like blood flying from the sky, you know? Oh, no, no, no. I thought they were going to light up the night with flaming arrows. You think the blood is going to be arcing, just like erupting like the Bellagio fountains over. That was your read on it? That's a very negative read, Chris. and I'm going to need you to try to turn your mind around

before we go into battle. What do you expect? That's true. The Airway office. My operation crimson sky was Baker Mayfield tearing us to be safe. Baker Mayfield throwing nanofibirons down the field. No spoilers.

Lights and everything to bits. Yes. I also wanted, I did want to visit some of the engine plot because speaking of Toranaga, knowing things, when Blackthorn is just like kind of wants to refuse,

he always wants to refuse these gifts that he's being given, right? Because both on some level it makes no sense and also it does seem a bit much, but also he doesn't want to do them. And when his suggestion instead, it's like, I would ask your lord, if he would instead, grant me,

access to my ship, my men, provisions and drink for six months to two years, entertainments, courtisans, books and papers about the Japan's, and I want to assure him, that in no way do I intend to return to my nation. I will help him defeat his enemies from the comfort of my living room in England.

Like, it's pretty clear what he's saying. He is definitely doing Moribal where he just keeps calling the GM with the same offer. And the GM is just like, yeah, you know, we're not going to let... You go. We're not going to let Devin Booker go for a second. And he's like, what if I

sweetened the pot with Tobias Harris's expiring contract for my ship, for my men, four flagons of mead. Perhaps some of that sticky nato. Stinky. Delicious. Yeah, he's trying. He's trying. He is a blunt object.

Come up with another request. That's all I'm saying. Dream bigger. Get an Amazon wish list going. He also, though, look, my man is, he's not just a fighter. He's a tender heart. You know, he brushes hands with America. Do you think he consummated his relationship with Kiko?

I think that there's a little bit of ambiguity to that. This one, the guy was like, Bontaro's dead. You are a strict... I think that they came out of the hut. Uh-huh. In front of everybody. And everybody is a little bit like, oh, it didn't really...

Like, that was great. And they were like, oh, yeah, you should definitely come back. But it wasn't like, wow. You didn't get post-coital vibes from that? No, I thought he was like... I think he stayed up all night talking about what a great chick Mariko is. Wow. Yeah.

I think that you are the Antonin and Scalia of TV watching. You're a strict originalist. If it was not on the screen... I'm just dealing with what I see. It didn't happen. You're just interpreting... There's that polar bear in lost again. I think the implication that this absolute piece of shit dude who just left England two years ago.

Okay. To run wild through Portuguese and Catholics all across the eastern rim of the world. Okay. And they're like, here is. I'm just saying literally they're like. Caping for Catholics over here. I'm just, I'm not trying to defend the faith. Yeah.

I'm just saying that this guy was just being told, like, you've been in a stranger and a strange land for almost a year now. Would you like to spend one night with the greatest cortisone in our nation? No strings attached. But he loves Mariko, man. I feel like this is you. See, you're describing again to like this heroic, this Western heroic vision. You think he's too pure.

He's too pure for this world. I just think that he obviously has a certain chivalry to him. He's like, well, no one's. stop them, they're going for this woman? You know, like, yeah. That is like how everyone's chivalrous on Twitter. He's just like at SJW. Stolen Valor?

Yes. 100%. Okay. He's out there. He's like, right, totally. In England, women are all sanctuary. Yeah.

They're on touch. No, I think he's, look, I think he's, I think he's, he's, he's dining out. Okay. All right. I think that when he writes his. When they come back next week and she's just like,

what was up, had the tea house go. and he's just like, we stayed up all night, spoke of Nato. What's a long night. Different recipes. I explained to her that theater in England is a man's great, great achievement. Better than women. Better than stew. Not better than cannons.

Remember that. Canon's important. Not better than my men who I do need back. My men, do need them. My ship, I would also like that back. If I could, I would trade this night of mind-blowing sex. I do respect it. I like to pillow.

Do like to talk. quite a bit. Chatty, chatty. It's getting Trumpy. It is getting Trumpy. But in that moment, do you think he stayed up all night with Lady Kiku being like,

ah, this is marvelous. However, what glories are greater than a man's ship and a man's men? You think? I don't know. I'm trying to read this guy, you know, what are his deeper ones? Can I tell you that over the weekend,

this past weekend, I was at a friend's house in Portland, did your house sitting. and one of the kids who lives there. Right. For reasons I have not had yet explained to me, one of her walls was wallpapered with pages from Shogun. Oh.

And I do believe, without no disrespect, that this child is way younger than the reading level required to read Shogun. So I think it's more of like an ornamental thing. But I got to say, I was like looking at that, I was like, oh shit, spoilers. Wait, so you were in a room. Because it was in the late 600s? Wallpapered with spoilers? Yeah.

Yeah. Is one of those pages like Blackthorne never once slept with a prostitute during all of his many years in Japan? One woman guy, yeah. The thing about Blackthorn, from the moment we meet him, we're like, that's a girlfriend guy. He's just a guy, right? He's just a girlfriend guy. Yeah. He's true to anyone once for a long time.

Anything else about this episode? You want to talk about it? So we did Crimson Sky. We did the reveal about Mariko's true purpose, I guess. I want to unpack your phrasing when you said one of the children who lived. lives in the house. You did not say this child was a child of people. Child of the people. I just didn't want to get too specific. Yes. I thought you were getting like very Portland Free City. No.

It was just like a crash house where people have James Clavel books, kids come in and out. We're doing dramatic readings of Shogun. No, I loved. Oh yeah. The only thing I wanted to say is we were joking about theater, but like Lord Ito, and that whole scene where, you know, there's the play on stage, and then there's the play happening in the crowd and the performance of watching it and receiving this information that's a play about things that have happened. And then this guy himself is a lord who gets swept up into politics is delicious. The whole thing is great. Yeah. It was another one of those moments where I was like, they're really, and I'm not saying this would be better. In a way, this is, this is probably a healthier way to interact with this stuff to

see a scene like that and have the feeling that I'm about to describe, which is, this could have been three seasons. Like there's so many, so many levels to the society. I'm not arguing for that. For God's sake, it should be acclaimed that it's tight. Even just the like the politics of Shigayama, I believe, is the guy who... Sugiyama gives the big comes down. John McCain's it. And yeah. Yes.

He... Do you think... Because the meanest thing he says before he gets God to Ishido is like, you're a bureaucrat. You're a bureaucrat. Well, that's because they view themselves as like warriors, right? My response is, would a bureaucrat be out here outside? the castle personally chopping you to ribbons? I think that, I think Ishido is probably

like just middle managing that. And isn't Ashiba really managing it? I mean, in, I would say 17th century feudal Japanese Twitter would be aflame. Like, once again, these bandits have struck an important person walking outside of the castle. What are we going to do about our woods?

What are we going to do about the crime problem at the border of this castle? My catalytic converter keeps getting stolen when I go in the woods. Honestly, if Lord Ido walked to that council and was just like, my platform is being tough on crime, and they're like, what crime? And they're like specifically bandit on Lord crime outside of this castle. He could be Shogun.

Don't you think? I do think. Okay. All right. Thank you for doing this with me. I don't know what else is on this podcast. This is exciting. Yeah, we're doing this segment especially because I'm in the woods.

Well, you're contractually obligated to do Blackthorn once a week. It's a pleasure. I should pay you. Heavy as the head, you know. Kaya, thank you. we will be back on Monday. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action

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active cash terms apply. All right, I am so happy to be joined by Flo Lloyd Hughes. Hi, Flo. Hi, Chris. Great to be here. I'm very excited. Flo is the host of Counterpressed, which is a great podcast about women's football that we have on the Ringer podcast

network. She also frequently appears on Ritey's House. Flo, it's awesome to see you. I wanted to talk to you about British TV because I know that you are an avid television watcher over there in the UK. and I, there's a show coming on. I think it's coming on in like three, on Sunday or Saturday on the BBC,

which I cannot watch because I do not participate in quasi-legal VPNs to watch foreign television. But it kind of prompted me to be like looking at the, you know, British TV landscape and thinking about some of the shows that are coming on or have been on recently. And then I thought like, I know Flo watches a ton of TV over there,

so let's chat about it. Yeah, I mean, you've got me in a nutshell. there. I absolutely love television. I think it's the best medium, to be honest. And often I'll just be sitting on the sofa and just turn to my girlfriend and say, isn't, isn't telly? We call it telly over here, which I feel like is a British thing, but maybe you guys do that. We call it telly and we go, isn't telly just so good? Like, the way it brings people together, and especially, you know, I think a lot around the pandemic, and I'm sure it's the same for you guys, right? Like, there was a, During that time, television was a lot of the time all we had.

All you could do was kind of gather around whoever you were living with and watch TV. And I think the pandemic really made me kind of step up my home TV situation. Like I invested in Surround Sound. I just bought a massive TV when I moved with my girlfriend because she had a tiny TV. So I was like, we're getting a 50 inch big one. And, you know, my mom lives on her own. And during the pandemic, she was very much like TV kind of was my best. best friend. It kind of saved my life. So yeah, telly is bliss. I love television so much.

And TV in the UK is in a funny place because I think there's been, where I see it that's quite different to the US right now is there's been a real push to and trend towards making hyper-local, scripted shows and factual stuff. But where I see, obviously, you look at the streamers, especially in the US, who are making fairly expensive shows that will appeal to an international audience, right? Because they're often international platforms. Like I'd speak Lord of the Rings or whatever. Yeah, a Lord of the Rings or a lot of the ones that, you know, maybe the gentleman, which I know you guys are talking about recently, which I haven't started yet.

But those things still have global appeal or a lot of the stuff on Apple TV. And I'm not really an Apple TV girl, but some of my friends love Apple TV. You know, a lot of those are international shows that can work anywhere. And I think where we see the broadcasters, especially going towards right now, is really hyper-local stories and true stories, not in the true crime variety. But there was one at the start of the year that went absolutely wild. And I don't know if it's translated and like anyone's going to watch it in the States yet or if it will. But a show called Mr. Bates versus the Post Office that was on ITV. And this is like Toby Jones is the stars.

Yes, yes, exactly. So really famous character actor, that lots of people in the same. States will recognize. And, you know, it was a huge commercial success for ITV, and I don't think they quite realize how big it was going to be. But that has certainly shown the appetite for really smaller, like, national, local stories that it doesn't matter if they don't have wider appeal. They're cheaper to make. There's going to be national interest in that. And that show was so big. So it's basically about a miscarriage of justice around people that worked in the post office in England and a huge court case that happened as a result. And it's all based on true story.

And Toby Jones placed this character who kind of led the fight back for justice over a very long period and they finally got justice. Now, this show was so big that it restarted conversations at, you know, Prime Minister government level around the original case. And it led to the prime minister saying all of the people that worked in the post office that were affected and wrongly convicted and prosecuted will have their prosecutions cleared and they will receive their compensation. So the global impact, well, yeah, I guess you could say global, but anyway, the impact of this show was huge. And I think that has really steered the conversation to like, what more stories can we uncover like this that had ripples in the news at the time, but we can

reignite people's interest by focusing on real stories? Yeah, so I've seen this story covered on the Guardian and did not make the connection that it was that series. So I've seen the actual story like when I go to the Guardian to like look at Premier League news and I'll like glance at the news on the front page or if there is like a royal controversy. I'll be like, let me just have a little look see here. But that story has been covered quite a bit and I didn't know that it was connected to this series.

That's such a fascinating aspect of it. I'm trying to think of some analogous. I'm trying to think of an example that you guys might have. So we have stuff. Yeah. What's the. one, you know, I know there's the recent one Amanda Seafre within it about the sort of like bio scandal. Like those sorts of ones we've seen. That was the Elizabeth Holmes story. And that honestly is

like those tech stories and like, you know, there was a rush of shows about WeWork and Uber and honestly, Theranos. That was what the Elizabeth Holmes did. Those are like, I think kind of posited as global industry and kind of social network style shows. I'm, the kind of thing that you're talking about, the closest thing I can think of off the top of my head is we own this city, which was David Simon, who did The Wire and his partner,

George Palacanos, like they did this show about a specific squad of Baltimore police officers that were corrupt. And so even though it's like a cop show, it was way more of a Baltimore show. I'm trying to think of like specifically, like them making a show where, and this is the sort of the huge different

between the two countries and the two markets is that you can have a show like that that feels very, very local, but does go national, whereas I don't necessarily think that is in any way of interest to the streamers and the networks here necessarily. I mean, in a weird way, Yellowstone is hyper-local, but it's obviously a modern Western and is a soap opera. So it's appealing on a much larger level. One of the things that I've always noticed in my time, like where I've gotten to go over there or talking to my family over there and friends is Andy and I always talk about the death of like a monocultural show. So for us, it was like Game of Thrones or Mad Men or something where it felt like everybody that we knew would watch it on Sunday night and then it worked the

next day would talk about it. I feel like that's a little bit more common in England where it feels like everybody is watching the same thing at once. Is that true for you, do you think? Yes, but I would say the shows that achieve that are, well, live, sports coverage, I don't know if we'd count that, but reality TV or reality game show, those are the ones that still pull people on and are appointment to view. Everything else, it feels like you can just watch it whenever and you can catch up whenever and you can join the conversation whenever. But the things that will still get people tuning in in order to be part of the social media conversation, which is the core part of,

you know, why people will be watching it at once is the spoiler avoidance. I feel like the only ones left is, yeah, sport or traitors, which is huge in the UK. And I think it was popular-ish in the US from what I've seen. And I've just started watching the latest US season. But I think it was popular with real reality TV heads, whereas traitors in the UK has mass, mass appeal for people that don't normally watch reality TV. And then I think you have things often like Big Brother, which has now come back after a few years out, Love Island, which feels like it's, maybe on its last legs a little bit, that still has big social media capital on conversation,

but there aren't many shows. Maybe the finale of succession, which I think a lot of people wanted to watch at the time to make sure they didn't see any spoilers. But that's the last sort of, like, linear TV show that I feel like it's not reality that people really wanted to be a part of. That's really interesting.

So there hasn't been, in your mind, like a British show that kind of captured the imagination of the TV, public in that way. Like, what would you say is the biggest scripted show right now in like from this year? That was like BBC. Oh, actually, you know what? I mean, I, yeah, if you can answer that question, then I have like a kind of broader question for our US audience who probably needs this explained. Well, I would say the biggest scripted thing of the year would probably be Mr. Bates versus the post office. That's so fascinating. I would say that what I think that, yeah, everyone watched that.

But that's the thing. People watched it at different times and then more people watched it as it started to be in the news. And then I think it kind of gained momentum. But it was less of a we're all watching it at the same time even though it did get released, I think, on Sunday nights, which is like the prime time for that ITV BBC slot.

It did get released over a period of Sundays. But most people tuned in after the fact and caught up and watched it because they saw it was in the news. So I do think that. And then probably the news. next one after that, maybe one day, but obviously that's Netflix. But I don't, you know, I don't know if that, from looking at my US friends and obviously what you guys cover on the pod, I don't know if that's had the same impact in the US as it, and the same interest and

reaction as it had in the UK. People absolutely loved it here. And now, you know, much like people are trying to find local stories, there's going to be a big surge on sort of like, rom-coms, I think, off the back of that of people trying to get that one day. Are we sure it's comedy? I don't want to spoil one day, but I don't know if it's the funniest thing I've ever seen my life. Oh, no, not at all. And what's funny is, you know, I read the book as a teen and absolutely loved it,

but I really didn't like the Netflix series. The movie with Anne Hathaway and Jim Sturgis was famously bad. So everyone sort of thought, okay, this time they're doing it right. I didn't enjoy it, but I also. find I can be a hypercritical person, but most people, like all my family absolutely loved it, were in tears. My girlfriend was in tears on the fire. Like, you know, it really landed really well with audiences. Yeah, I think that you have to probably be like, if you stick it out with that show, I kind of watched it, like, one step removed. So like my wife was watching it and she would, I could see,

I could hear her watching it. And then like, I just came by, I walked by. And I was like checking in. and I also know the story, but I was like, come in and watch like 20 minutes of an episode and then go do something else. And then at the end, it was just like, she was incapacitated with grief. And I was like, okay, so I guess this worked. I wanted to ask you if you could sort of explain for people,

this is a little bit of an anthropological question. How do people watch television in England? Because I know there's been recently a bunch of discourse about like BBC licenses and whether or not like they're going to go license free. So then they'll have to have more like deals and advertising and maybe even like think differently about their programming. But for the average UK or just even for yourself, like what's your setup?

Do you have? How many channels do you have and like how many streaming services do you have? And how is it kind of comparable to the US? Because I know you spent some time over here. Yeah. So without getting too deep into the politics of it all, the BBC is a public service broadcaster and it is funded by license fees that if you want to watch live television in this country, you pay a license fee, which is £100 something.

I can't remember what it is the latest thing because you can't just do it by direct debit. But all that money is then pulled together to fund all the programs and the radio and all the stuff you see on the BBC website, which includes the news. It includes like educational content, everything, podcasts, whatever. But, you know, there's been complications and a lot of meddling, shall we say, around how that is run because the government want to say in it. And, you know, there's been a bit of back and forth about how much people should have to pay. And part of that has also been the emergence of streaming platforms and like a reimagining of the price of content. So, you know, people in parliament and government here will stand up and say, hey, you're only paying $7.99 for Netflix a month.

So why are people expected to pay £120 for the BBC for a year? And I think it's a misunderstanding of what the BBC delivers. Now, obviously I'm saying this as like a BBC stand. I think the BBC isn't quite the juggernaut and beast that it used to be. I think it's taken a bit of battering and I think that's impacted. It's programming across the board. But I still think as an institution, I think it delivers a lot of good stuff in this world. So it's frustrating when you see it kind of being broken.

and a lot of the impact has been on local radio actually. That's probably been hit the hardest. So I don't want to go too deep into the technicality to that. So that's that side. But then you've got commercial broadcasts like Channel 4 and ITV. So we have a sort of Channel 1 to 5 traditionally. Right. So you've got ITV, Channel 4 and Channel 5, they're all commercial.

Channel 4 has been really going through it because they're like partly state owned, I think, and they've been struggling financially. So then outside of that, You've got your wider digital service, which we call Freeview in the UK, and everything went digital, I don't know, maybe 10, 15 years ago now. And you get that as like part of a package, like part of your license fee, you buy a TV, it's all got the digital channels on it and you get like a selection of digital channels. Then you can move up and pay for satellite TV or cable TV. So you could get a Sky or a Virgin. And that's more like what you guys are probably getting in the US where you're paying, I don't know, $200 for.

like direct TV or something, right? Yeah, that's basically our cable program. And then if you, you know, I was going to ask if the UK people are cutting the cord, so to speak, which is a big thing here where people basically pay for their internet service, but then everything that they watch, you know, maybe they'll get Hulu or they'll get YouTube live TV, but they don't do cable anymore because cable is so onerous when it comes to like how much they're charging per month. But go ahead. Yeah. So there is a pushback on that. And I think part of that,

part of that feeds into the narrative of the anti-BBC messaging is we want to cut the cord, we don't want to have to pay a license fee, we want as the customer to choose, we want the free market approach, why should we have to pay a license fee if we don't like BBC stuff? So I think there is a bit of pushback. And like you can, you know, you can see the justification for it in some ways, but at the same time, you're going to come across that content probably some way or other anyway. And, you know, if you watch. the World Cup or the euros, that's going to be on BBC. So you're going to probably have to access it at some point, you know,

because it often gets split across ITV and BBC. So, you know, it's a hard one. But yeah, generally speaking, there are similar, like most young people especially, and I think this is where there's a similar trend, are not purchasing satellite or cable television in this country. Right. They are, you know, previously piggybacking off a Netflix parent's account, but now with their own Netflix account,

or they're doing now TV, which is like an instant access streaming platform run by Sky, or they're doing Disney Plus, or they're doing whatever. That traditional, like, here's my cable box, and I'm going to, you know, record stuff, whatever. That is really, yeah, it's a dying rate. That's dying out. Okay.

Yeah. So I think it's quite similar. I guess when you're watching TV, are, you know, are you, and you said, like, generally you watch reality shows like night of, like so you can be no spoilers and a part of the conversation. And then most people are watching scripted stuff if they're watching it like whenever, however. And it's more of like a catchall.

When is something like a Mr. Bates captures the imagination, does that kind of flip over into like we're all going to tune in and watch the last episode of Mr. Bates together or is it kind of like people just watched a lot of it and it had like a kind of fever pitch of energy behind it? I think sometimes things can grow. and get a bigger interest for like the final episode. Yeah. But I see more and more less for conversation like,

is everyone watching the last episode of this tonight? I think it's really hard for people to still have that. Because often as well, they'll do an outfit for the show and say, all on IPlay or all on ITVX now. So they're pushing you almost to binge it all anyway. Mm-hmm. Okay. So when you are consuming stuff from the States, is it generally like you're hearing about things or reading about things that you hear

are like critically acclaimed and checking that out like if it's a scripted show so like did you see the bear or you know like what what's like some US stuff that is like popped off over there? Yeah the bear I think had a kind of hipster appreciation but maybe didn't. It does hear as well. Yeah. I think it's similar right. It's like if you know, you know if you're cool, you watch the bear kind of thing. So I think it had that.

I think it had that same appeal. I do find it maybe it's just because my siblings are all parents and have kids, but I do feel like Disney Plus is maybe more of like the family streamer because people want to access. Yeah, Disney Plus in order to just like feed their kids content. So I think it sometimes shows there that aren't kids. I don't think it great eyes because people don't associate it with that sort of content. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

I feel like sometimes it's hard to be like, oh, I've got this great, you know. Like I know Dope Sick, I think, did quite well here and people were interested in that. But I think, yeah, I think it can't be harder to cut through. Netflix, by far and above, like the most dominant one here for that kind of scripted stuff, documentaries, movies, everything. I think Netflix is still like pushing a lot of the conversation and sort of almost creating and curating for streaming what people will watch here and maybe that's pretty similar to you guys.

It is and I think it's just going to be something that we're going to either look back in 10 years and just kind of stand in awe but we're reckoning with it now where I think a lot of people who are younger than us, Netflix is what television is. You know, like the idea of,

I honestly think it's probably the best bang for the buck anyway. Like just actually like dropping any kind of pretensions about whether or not like how much any great shows they produce per year. If you were just like, I want to watch reality TV, docs, comedy, and drama, and all the, like, if you just wanted, like, the absolute buffet of modern television, like, I can't argue against the, what you get on your return and investment for Netflix, you know, and I think you can make arguments like, I don't know, I think for us, it's HBO Max or Max, and then for

you, I think it winds up a lot of that stuff is on Sky Atlantic. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's how you watch like Succession or House of the Dragon, right? Yeah. But yeah, like it's nothing against other streamers as much as Netflix's like control and ease of use and and sheer volume is just sort of like hard to argue with. Yeah, the library is so vast, right? So it just feels like you're bound to find something on there so it becomes the default option to go to. And I think, I don't think Amazon's ever really pushed itself enough to try and compete.

as well. Especially with its shows. Like I can't remember last time. I watched jury duty, which is obviously like free view, which is then linked to Amazon. But, you know, outside of that,

I've never really ever watched that many Amazon shows or Amazon original movies either. So I just, yeah, I don't think it sits on the same level. Okay. So let's talk a little bit about what you've been watching

because I know, like, you're one of our great traders scholars. We don't really talk about reality TV too much on this, although I'm in the mood to talk about... I know you need two more. I feel like you're missing out a key component. You know, we do talk about top...

We talk about Top Chef. And now Wednesdays have become, in my house, basically, because they've extended... Top Chef and Survivor are now like supersized. So Survivor is two hours, I think. And it's like an hour and a half. I think they're both 90 minutes on broadcast and they wind up being about 60 minutes total.

So my wife and I watch... Survivor and Top Chef on Wednesday nights, which is like our night. You know, what, like, so there's traders and traders has become like basically a sport over there, right? Yeah, traitors on social media is like primetime Premier League football game. It's huge. And actually, I did see the other day, I think ITV have commissioned something with David Tennant. I think it was ITV. Have commissioned basically trying to create their own traitors because they know how, so they've got David Tennant leading some game.

show that's going to probably be quite traitors copycat. And yeah, everyone is trying to do it. Obviously, Netflix had there, was it the mole? Yes. Yes. They revived the mole, yeah. That was an old one that kind of had a reboot. Yeah.

And then I think there was another one that I saw as well that a streamer had done similar. So, yeah, it's absolutely huge in the UK. There's a board game, which I have, which is really good. There's actually two board games. There's a card-based game, which I don't know. have and then a proper board game, which is very good. And, oh, it's absolutely massive. You know, Claudia Winkelman is a big TV entertainment person here, but it's kind of raised her to an even bigger level. And it will be interested to see how long they can kind of keep it going.

I do think, and this is getting into that kind of cultural conversation, when I think about UK television, I think the difference that there has been historically is that UK shows have always been really good at knowing when it's time to go. You know, think about the UK office, a lot of the UK comedy shows that have been rebooted and reimagined for US audiences. Like a lot of those shows only lasted a few seasons over here. Yeah. And then they went to the US and got like 14 seasons. Yeah. I think that's the model that they're adopting here, sadly, for more economic reasons. Because if you go past three seasons, the cast usually renegotiates their deals and everything. It seems like the UK is kind of more on either end of the extreme.

It's either like Sherlock does six episodes, but they're 90 minutes or however many episodes Sherlock did or however many episodes Office did. Or it's EastEnders and Coronation Street, which run for like 30 years. Yeah, the soaps will never die. But actually, interestingly, this year, the UK lost two soaps, which was a real sad moment. Because obviously, as you'll know, like being in the industry in L.A., soaps are massive for writers to get into, for people to access the industry. So this year, the UK lost doctors, which was a terrible daytime soap, but was an entry point for lots of actors and lots of writers and directors and producers and whatever.

And then it also lost one of its two hospital soaps, which, you know, why you would need two, I don't know. But it had casualty in Holby City and I think Holby City is the one that's no longer going to be running. and Holly Oaks, which is a evening, slightly edgier Manchester-based soap, has now gone from five days a week to three days a week, which has a massive impact on some writers' rooms. So it's been, I mean, you know, it's been a really bad 18 months in the UK film and TV industry, and it hasn't been great either in the US, right? So we're seeing that impact.

But, yeah, I think it is really interesting to see kind of how people navigate, like when it's time to turn a TV show off. And I think Love Island has reached that point now where I'm like, I don't know how much longer they can keep squeezing this show because audiences are starting to get a little bit irritated, I think, and bored. But Traitors is only in season two now. And the impact that that show has had is just phenomenal. And I just, yeah, it's hard because the context is so simple

to know, like, when will the natural conclusion be? but I'm almost like, I never wanted to end, you know, I was trying to keep going. Yeah, right. I'm trying to think of like when I felt that way about a reality show. I mean, I certainly live with somebody who feels that way about love is blind, although I think she's starting to... I did have watched the late season of that as well, and that was... She's starting to feel her soul decay a little bit as the season's gone.

But yeah, I mean, it's... The other fascinating thing that's happening over here is that for us, it's network television was the sort of entry point where you could have obviously like a really good living if you got on a network TV show either as like a as a supporting actor or uh if you worked on it somehow behind the scenes whether you were in the writer's room or or working on the set a lot of those shows basically you know like they still function on network television but you've seen more and more like people just getting distracted by all the different options so they're they don't have like the central like gray's anatomy is still very

successful but is not like a massive blockbuster show anymore The funny thing is, is that now the streamers, which were these kind of rebellious, transgressive forces for a while, are like, you know what we need? Our own Grey's Anatomy. So there's a couple of HBO just announced that they're going to essentially, they're bringing Noah Wiley and John Wells, who Noah Wiley was Dr. Carter on ER and John Wells created. I saw this. They're doing a hospital show for Max. I think they're just going to do like a limited amount of episodes or like a smaller C. obviously, but it's called The Pit. And then Netflix has a very like kind of hot show called. I can't

remember what it's called, but it's Justine Machado, who is on one day at a time is doing it. It's about a Miami like emergency room. So it's funny how like we'll go all the way around to like being like, we have to dismantle like everything we know about television. Oh, and it turns out people like doctor shows. I know. I mean, I think actually that there's an interesting conversation around nostalgia because I think that's something that's really crept in as well because I think with the nervousness around commissioning spending money and what might work, I think people are leaning on that sort of troubled times and, you know, we've got two general elections happening as in we've got a general election. You guys have a presidential election, right? So I think in those sort of

fragile times, you see the culture lean towards nostalgia as like a safe delivery of content, right? So we've seen that with Gladiators, which has made a really impressive and good return on BBC. And I think people were surprised at how well it's landed. I think, you know, I love the original Gladiators in the 90s. And I remember all the original characters in that show. And I don't think they thought it was going to be as popular as it has been. So that's been a real surprise. What is Gladiators for people who don't know?

So Gladiators is a reality game show where the public, take on like super mussely bodybuilder types and they have to fight them I think it was US originally there's a really good doc Yeah I wasn't sure if it was the same one Okay I know what you're talking about

Yeah so there's a really good talk about The guy that came up with it And I don't think it did that well in the States But it's huge well it was in the 90s It was huge over here Then it had a really bad Early 2000s reboot that didn't go very well And then it's back again now

with a whole new cast of characters and it's done really well and then the other thing that's come back is Big Brother which I know you guys have and obviously was an internationally syndicated reality game show ITV had never broadcast it before

Channel 4 and Channel 5 had been the people that had it in the past and they about two years ago now were like we're bringing it back they brought back the civilian Big Brother last year it did really well I think people there were really impressed with the ad numbers

and the viewing figures and then they just did the celebrity version and it didn't quite work. I don't think fans were as pleased as they and the hype was massive and people were really looking forward to it. They had Sharon Osborne on there. I don't know if you saw.

She was on there for five days and got paid a fortune for it. So, yeah, I just don't think it quite delivered what they'd hoped. But I think it speaks to this era of people really wanting to just lean on shows that that millennial audience loved and they're thinking,

oh, well, people love nostalgia, just roll them out, roll them out. Have you, so when you're getting, like, where do you, do you basically, like, read The Guardian or read any, like, kind of reviews of shows, scripted shows coming up to kind of decide, oh, I'm going to check that out.

Like, the impetus behind me asking you about coming on was, I've been looking forward to this show called This Town, which is the guy, Stephen Knight, who did Peaky Blinders and Rogue Heroes. And it's a show. this town is about early 1980s Birmingham and the I'm sure I didn't pronounce that

as like that was a very American pronunciation of that but Birmingham. I've definitely heard worse so I think it's okay. And it's about like two-tone ska and in this city and it was just I'm so excited to watch it but I have to wait for whenever BBC sells it off to an American streamer

I guess but where do you find out about new shows that you're going to watch or are you just kind of channel surfing? I tend not to channel surf, I think word of mouth is still the ultimate, I think. It's probably a conversation of word of mouth. So I would also include like podcasts in the word of mouth element. Like what my family and friends are watching and talking about, but then also what other people are watching and talking about. So what they're talking about on social media, what they're talking about on

podcasts. And then the media sort of critical discussion maybe is added to that. So like what are people writing and talk about. So, you know, I'm a big fan of Vulture and, you know, the stuff that they put out around TV and people, you know, people on the Guardian or BBC or whatever, like, what's that conversation? So that would probably be the places I go. And yeah, I, I mean, my mom still subscribes to the Radio Times, which is basically the TV guide. Yeah. And she gets that delivered every week and loves it. And it's still her go-to Bible. And, and it's still her go-to Bible. And in this country, most people buy that at Christmas, because the Christmas TV, because Christmas TV here is, you know, a real family favorite.

And they really pump up the Christmas TV schedule and it's a real kind of moment. And they do Christmas specials for a lot of the series, right? They do Christmas special. Yeah, they replay old ones. The soaps do Christmas specials, other places do Christmas specials. And there's new releases always at Christmas. There's a new sort of short scripted drama or like a crime thriller or something. So the Radio Times TV guide at Christmas is bumper and it's got all. the movies, it's massive. But outside of that, no one really buys a TV guide, apart from,

like, people my mom's age. So like, you know, 60s, 70s, 80s, whatever. The last question I had, which is very hyper-specific, I didn't prepare you for, but I, one thing that is very, you know, like a real comfort TV for me is, you know, British cop thrillers or British thrillers and crime shows. And there's, you know, sometimes I'll watch, like, stuff on Britbox and Acorn that's legitimately, like, was produced by the BBC. But then there's some, you know, like, I don't know if you saw Criminal Record, which is on Apple TV. I heard you guys talking about it, but I literally haven't seen anything about it. But I just don't, I'm not an Apple TV person, so I feel like I miss out on this stuff.

Well, I guess it's so funny because, like, I've gotten to go over there a couple of times. So I'm, like, aware of, like, the neighborhood and stuff like that. But, like, they'll be talking about Hackney, you know, on this, on this show and, like, where all the crime is. And I, I'm sure, I'm sure it's true. But it's so funny to watch, like, British culture reflects. through Apple's aesthetic kind of. And obviously probably to like, they've kind of filtered out some of the local flavor that I think that you're describing as being incredibly popular in England right now.

Yeah, totally. And I do think it comes down to those streamers and their approach of like, we need to create these shows which will land to English-speaking audiences or even, you know, translate if they're going to be dubbed or whatever to these global audiences. And they have to almost be so neutral and generic sometimes in their content. Yeah. And I think it turns off viewers in the UK sometimes where they feel like it's not authentic. Yeah. And I think that's really interesting.

I think the sort of gritty crime, UK-centric ones do really well here. And there's been a few that on BBC and ITV that have done well. And there's always a new one. You know, there's always a new one. there was a Netflix crime one which I think sort of broke the mould recently which was a Harlan

Yes It's Harlan Cobin and it's You know the funny thing about his Let me should I just double check it I'll just read that one Yeah yeah What was it called? Do you remember what it's called?

God they're all called like Don't Look now Full Me Ones Yeah So that was actually 2016 But it's just Okay this is interesting conversation

Okay Yeah, interestingly, one that really broke the mold recently, but what's bizarre is, you know, obviously Netflix do those kind of like re-releases where they'll bring a show in from the cold that aired somewhere else and they'll buy it and make it a big thing. That's how suits became like a phenomenon. Exactly. I know you guys talking about it recently, right? So something that really broke the mold, though, start of this year, because it didn't come out on BBC and ITV, but it had the sort of cultural look and feel of an ITV. BBC crime gritty thriller was for me once, which was a huge Netflix one. And that felt like everyone was watching and talking about it. And it was almost not big enough to feel like a Netflix show, but landed with probably all the people that would be wanting to watch that stuff on BBC and ITV.

So I think that was really interesting to see that play out. Yeah, because it's almost as if like what if Netflix has figured out the equation to just do. Yeah, they're just like, we have BBC crimes now. Flo, thank you so much for joining me. I hope you come on again next time we have some British stuff to talk about. You can listen to Flo on Counterpressed and on Righty's House and hopefully here again. Thanks, Flo. Thank you so much.

And I'll leave people like she. I want to leave people with a recommendation. Oh, please do. To understand British TV reality culture. There's a brilliant docu-series, like audio docu-series called Unreal on BBC Sounds. And I think it's like four or five episodes. And this journalist kind of goes through this. history of reality TV in the UK and like Laguna, Laguna Beach and the Hills Beach as well.

So it's a wider U.S., it's a wider one, but it really focuses on UK British TV culture. And I think if you're interested in the topic, that is a brilliant listen as well. Thanks so much for the recommendation. I can hear Kaya writing that down right now. And we'll have you back on sometime soon. Thanks, Chris. It's been great.