The Watch - ‘Shogun’ Episode 7 and ‘3 Body Problem’ Episodes 6-8

Episode Date: April 4, 2024

Chris and Andy talk about the news that Julia Garner was cast as a version of Silver Surfer in the upcoming ‘Fantastic Four’ movie (1:00) and give some love to the second season of ‘Tokyo Vice�� (10:46). Then they break down the seventh episode of ‘Shogun’ and talk about how the show’s long production road helped deepen the characters (17:18). Finally, they talk about Episodes 6-8 of ‘3 Body Problem’ and whether there will be a second season of the show (36:18). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up. and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me on the other line, still holding his crimson sky stock.

It's Andy Greenwald. I think it was a good plan. Oh my God. Greenwald, it's great to see you, man. And Andy is not with us in the studio today. He is celebrating spring break. You know, I know it's a very important tradition for you. And it seems like you're having,

a great time you look tan. Andy is in Hawaii. And I just want to say, man, I know that you've taken an L this week with Nelson Peltz, but I think it's pretty bold of you to go all the way to Hawaii to de-wokify Moana. I'm here boots on the ground trying to determine everything. Like, yeah, I'm just trying to figure out what Disney's vision is for this property. Andy, we have a couple of news and notes things to talk about. And then we're going to get into a very heavy television buffet. All You Can Eat, Shogun. The last. last couple of three body problems and maybe some top chef or definitely some top chef. You look great. How are you doing? I feel great. You know, I was with the family yesterday.

I've been with a family all week. Went on a boat yesterday. And I think I could sail to the Japan's now. Yeah. I think 100% I could. I would say the first 10. You got pretty close. I mean, you're out there. I was out there. I was in the middle of it. I would say in the first 10, 15 minutes, I was a little dubious because our captain, Captain Kyler, shout out Captain Kyler. His name wasn't John? No, we're getting there. We got a slow build. I've been off air for a while.

It was definitely cautioning everyone that there would be some, he called it, adventure sailing on the waves. There was a lot of dramamine being passed out, you know, which I don't think was available to the Portuguese back in the 17th century. but I would say by the time we turned around on the boat and my man Kyler started playing Heaven is a Place on Earth Oh yeah

Into pour some sugar on me While the sea spray was in my face I was like I am I am ready Take me Poseidon I was I was feeling it I'm currently so watching obviously Shogun I am Two thirds of the way through Tokyo Vice

Season 2 the final episode is airing tonight and then the first scene of the new Apple TV show that came out, I think today or tomorrow, Sugar starring Colin Farrell, is set in Tokyo and has a little bit of a yakuza thing going on. I am almost fluent in Japanese. It's like, no duo lingo, but it could happen. I could just start, I could start podcasting bilingually pretty soon. Is Japan having a moment?

Chris, are you so fluent now that when you hear? The Japan piece. We have to talk about it. Do you, every time that you hear a character on Shogun, in fluent Japanese, say, Yabashige, do you do the Leo DiCaprio pointing meme? Because you recognized it in the flow of the natural discourse. What we should do, there's so much good podcasting about Shogun being done here at the Ringer podcast network.

Precise TV, Midnight Boys. I would say us. We do a good job. We're fine. You and I need to, we need to set the bar higher for everybody. So I want you to promise me, final episode of Shoggan. go and we go no subs. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah, we have to be fluent in Japanese by the final episode. And what episode are we on right now? And I will note I am on vacation. So we just viewed episode seven.

This is seven. This is a stick of time aired Tuesday night and that is seven. So there are three episodes left, eight, nine, ten. I think I can do it. I think I could say Katana. I heard them say that a bunch this week. So I feel pretty confident, honestly. Andy the only? Do you think by the end of episode 10, could you stand in front of me and say, it is an honor to meet a relative

of my liege lord? Do you think you could do that? In Japanese. Because Blackthorne did it. I'm going to do that. You know what I mean? If John Blackthorn can do it, I'm going to be,

that's how I'm introing you after episode 10. I appreciate that because he, although we should, as we have been saying week to week, he does have a gift for languages. His ability to swear and fluent Portuguese is unmatched.

so he might have a leg up on you. Greenwald, the only big news, obviously, like there was the whole Disney board battle. What's your take on that? You seem like a Peltz guy all this. You know what? I got to say that the board battle is less exciting than Bob's getting canned.

Like, we, I feel like we really thrived when Ceypec was in and then Al and Iger came back. And we've talked a little bit about some of the behind-the-scenes stuff. But I have to say that, like, a bunch of, like, faceless shareholders voting on stuff, And it also was really hard for me to imagine that Nelson Peltz had like a shot at taking over Disney's. By the way, this sounds exactly like Shogun. You're basically saying you only like covering these stories when Crimson Sky happens, but when it's four regents in a room talking.

When it's a bunch of ladies, yeah, I hate it. No, it's not true. I thought this was a great episode. So, yeah, nothing too much about the Disney board battle, but I did want to mention Disney a Jace that Justin Kroll over at Deadline has. and a news story this week that Julia Garner is set to play the, quote, iconic comic book character in Marvel Studios. She's playing Silver Surfer. This rounds out the cast.

We now have the big five. Silver Surfer is the bad guy in Fantastic Four, right? No. This is, do you want to take this whole podcast over? Chris, you had so much goodwill built up. I heard all Monday you're like, X-Men. I know who Bishop is. Gambit is cool.

Within the first 10 minutes of this podcast, you threw it all away. No. You want me to do this now? Do you want me to do this on vacation? Chris. Let me just put it on my... I feel like I'm being set up here. No. The Silver Surfer is the Herald of Galactus.

Okay. So, canonically... So Silver Surfer is like Galactus's advance man. That's right. He's like, hello. Nice to meet you all. I'm here to let you know that my God alien emperor will be eating your planet shortly.

And I'm just here to, like, you know, tie up some loose ends. Okay. Because Galactus is a giant man in a suit with a purple head who eats planets. Damn. And one of the- Thanos's block. Well, the purple is a thing. We're going to have to confront that at some point in the MCU.

Yeah, and that was sort of the creation of this character and this type of storytelling was one of the things that sort of was an inflection point for Marvel and for when Stanley and Jack Kirby created this and made the Fantastic Four, like, much more than just the protectors of New York, but rather. like the protectors of an entire universe, if not dimension. But anyway, yeah, so the suggestion here is that Galactus is coming and is some sort of evil threat. People are still checking for Dr. Doom, though. Okay.

Right? Don't you feel like there's, it's been real quiet on Doom Island? I just feel like, mefisto me once, you know? Wow, Chris. I'm just saying, ever since Kang gave up the throne, you know, RIP, the Kang era, the Kang dynasty. There's been a space to fill. So I will say, though, pivoting it to in the positive, I love Julia Garner. Me too.

I think she's awesome. And I have no idea what role she's going to play in this, but I think it's kind of cool. Matt Shackman's directing this movie, and I can't remember who's writing it. But I do want to make just one note for whoever's doing dialogue now. Please have a scene where Julia Garner is literally surfing. And somebody comes up to her and says, you can't surf here. And she goes, if you don't want me to surf here, You're going to have to fucking kill!

That's an Ozark joke. That's your Ozark heads? Speaking of surfing, again, I'm not saying I'm ready for Nazare, but there was some boogie boarding happening here on vacation. They made me feel... Did you wear a protective suit? Thank you for asking. Thank you for asking.

I wouldn't say it was a full suit, but I was wearing like a kind of like a surf shirt, like a rash guard, if you will, to protect myself. Because, you know, I'm out there for, I'm out there for a long time. Not a good time. I'm not there for a long time. I was more, I think my energy was more like Kenny Powers at the beginning of Eastbound season three. Yeah. When he comes running out and he's just like, hey, y'all.

You know, got some sets coming in. People did use the word sets to describe tiny, tiny swells on a baby beach. Yeah. Was there a lot of surf terminology being thrown around? I think that there's kind of like some, there's been some language inflation in terms of what we're doing here because we all know too much about surfing and we'll never actually do it. So you're barreling stuff and it's like, actually. That's exactly right.

Exactly right. Exactly right. But fun. I was just going to mention as a sort of admin slash preview thing that we are speaking of waves in the middle of the Emmy Wave and where we're getting. Look at you. One to two shows usually with a major star attached coming every Friday, Sunday, whatever it is. This week we get Sugar with Colin Farrell, which I think would, I would say has been

met with mixed reviews. And obviously, I think it's probably best to talk about that once we've watched some of it, because the reviews are obviously struggling with how much to reveal about that series. And then Ripley on Netflix starring Andrew Scott from Steve Zalian, which I think has gotten relatively good reviews, frankly, so far, which for a project that's been sort of floating around that was originally at Showtime, it's been a couple of years in the, if not making, at least the arriving. It's cool to see that happening.

So I'm looking forward to checking those two out. I watch the first sugar. I'm very interested to see what you think about it. Can I ask you one other admin question that's less admin? I feel like, so I want to talk Tokyo Vice without having seen it briefly, just to say. Good. Way in. I should have watched the first season because as you did, it was Michael Mann.

I do have a slight, but I do think debilitating Ansel Elgort allergy. So I did not get into the first season. Second season comes out. I think Michael Mann is now just a producer. Michael Mann has not been involved since the pilot episode. Yeah, right. So yet there is a groundswell of people out there saying that this season is phenomenal. It's one of the best things on TV.

It's one of the best things on TV. Mina said that? Yeah. Look, I trust Mina completely. So I want to check it out. Where are you with this? It is excellent. It's an excellent, excellent television show.

And it is obvious. I hope it comes, I don't know if they're going to do a third season. Like I said, I'm only like midway through the, second season. It's really interesting because the first episode of the second season is essentially like a soft wrap up of the first season. So much so that they're like at the end like you didn't just come to Tokyo to solve one crime. There are many. You know, and it's like that it kind of starts like a bunch of new plot lines. There's still obviously a lot of connective tissue. There's there's Yakuza stuff and there's like police corruption and everything. But I would say

that not only does the season move forward with new story stuff, but it feels a little bit lighter on its feet to me and a little bit less modeling. It's just really, really like gripping, entertaining procedural television. It's just, it's, I really, I really can't recommend. I want to talk about it, but I don't want to give anything away. It's also got like, I want to watch it. A central, like a real star making performance by this guy's show Kasematsu, who plays Sato, who's a, I think a more sensitive kind of Yakuza lieutenant and he's fantastic in it.

But yeah, I mean, I want to tell you that you can just jump in on two and I think that somebody with your big brain can figure it out. Oh, thanks. And there is a nearly five or six minute previously on Tokyo Vice that you can watch at the beginning

of the season and be like, I think I got it. But I will say that there are references and moments that you're like, why is this important? And it's because this person has come back or this person is leaving and you're like, I would have to know who that was. To be clear, I'm going to watch it without subtitles. Good. So I feel like my challenges are already quite steep.

The other reason why I'm interested in the show, just as a note for people who are watching it and who soon I will be among your cohort, this is a max original, right? Yeah. And that is a dying breed, especially for the type of show that Tokyo Vice is. So I think that's something to consider as we're waiting to see what the future for that show may be, that it is in a precarious position because it is one of the few remaining holdovers, I believe, from the era when Warner Brothers before it was Warner Brothers Discovery was funding and programming Max as a distinct entity. As like a genre and like maybe more mainstream style like arm of HBO, yeah.

Not even an arm of HBO, just a completely unique service because it had its own programming team with Sarah Aubrey and Kevin Riley. And they famously or infamously depending what side of the equation you were on, they, I think, outbid HBO proper for Station 11. And Station 11 was a Max original, even though it is spiritually much more of an HBO show. Now that in the Warner Brothers Discovery merger, things have been consolidated under a friend of the pod, Casey Blois. and it seems pretty clear that the future of the Max brand is James Gunn, DC stuff, is the Penguin, which is, I guess now technically James Gunn DC stuff. It is, it's their more, yeah, they're more their branded IP arm from the larger company. I don't think we're going to get more Tokyo vices. I don't mean more seasons of Tokyo Vice.

That's possible, but more shows like Tokyo Vice that are ambitious in their own right. I will say also just anecdotally without looking at numbers at all, you know, Tokyo Vice started. the big calling card for it was Michael Mann as directing this first episode. I think initially it was like Michael Mann is involved in this show and that was really exciting. Then the first season I thought was quite good and found sea legs

after like the man visual kind of language of it was sort of, I mean, not stripped away, but revised over the course of the first season. Then you get this second season, which obviously at least in our small kind of echo chamber has like a ground swell of like this is actually secretly

one of the best things on TV. love it. I've gotten into this. It's a COVID-era show, I think, in so much as the second season felt fairly delayed from the first season, right? Like, I was thinking there was, I was actually shocked that it was coming back at all. But it definitely have a kind of like, the same way outer range feels like it was on five years ago. Like, I feel like I have like a weird memory hole of like when Tokyo Vice came out.

But is a really good example of like sometimes shows need a sense. season or two to find their legs. And sometimes people need 18, 24 months to find a show, get into a show, become an evangelist for the show, tell all their friends that they love the show. And we try to do our best here when we find

something that we love to really tell our listeners how much we let, like, they should be watching it. But Tokyo Voice is a perfectly good example of like, we can't watch everything. And sometimes the stuff slips through the cracks. And it's a shame because I think it's actually getting quite a bit of a fan base now as it's approaching the

of its second season. It also sounds like it's falling into that kind of challenging spot where we struggle how to cover it. And also, I think audiences struggle with how to receive it and prioritize it, which is to hear the way you're describing it, it's like, this is just a killer crime show. Like, I'm really enjoying it. This isn't resetting my understanding of what television is in the streaming era. This isn't a absolutely get everyone paying attention to this. This could be a monocultural phenomenon like Shogun. This is a good show. You know, we'd have. which we have not a ton at this moment. But again, that's hard for us to articulate

in terms of what we're championing and why we're championing it. And also, to your point, like shows that are just solid and good and fill a niche in people's lives need time to develop. And in this kind of broken timeline of streamers and COVID delays and everything,

it doesn't have the chance to build up the body of work to even get the fan base that it might eventually require. Should we move elsewhere and back in time in the Japan lands to talk a little bit about Shogun? I just want to stay on the, Japan's.

Andy. I'm going to start here. I can't wait. At the ending. RIP Nagakato, who truly went out like the Atlanta Braves in October, you know? It's your greatest stray ever. That character in some ways had been McBainting himself for quite some time. Truly.

But I wanted to know, you know, I guess like his death, I got spoilers, obviously, for stick of time. His death comes after Toraga's insensible surrender, unless that surrender was in fact like a gesture so that then his brother would be having his guard down at the tea house and they could jump him there. Did you read the Nagakato ambush as a solo mission by him? Or something that Toranauga had been planning? Well, because Torana has that interaction with the madam, basically,

about that. This seems to me, it's important to have watched to pay attention to the Torinaga and Jin scene, but I think that this was done by the younger generation who are all fuckups.

Like this seems like it was a Kiku, maybe Omi, and Nagakado special. Yeah. That's classic Omi, by the great imitation. Japanese is sterling already. I was trying to imitate the younger generation,

you know? Gen Alpha. Yeah. Yeah, it seemed unrelated. Like Tornaga's relationship with his failed son has been ongoing, and it was extremely McBainy for Nagakato. It's been the episode being like, ah, which will I love more when I experience it?

Killing men or betting women? My life truly, truly is a bounty. It seemed like just another foolish solo run. I think that it... He was also like dying as going to be. to be dope. You know, I can't wait for that. He's like, it's going to be glorious. I can't wait. I will also say, I mean, I will say that this show has warned its characters to be careful in gardens. Do you remember? I mean, initially, when Blackthorns walking out and the gardener who later dies is like, how dare you step on this gravel?

I know. I think imagine Blackthorns challenges if there have been a water feature in his garden. You know, I think that would have been serious. A fountain there? I think we could see where that would have gone. But yeah, largely, if we're starting at the end, you sort of have to point out the one thing that is a little bit, my only criticism, because I thought this episode was, again, week to week, it's getting better and better. In some ways, this was my favorite experience watching Shogun yet. We're really banking a lot on Taurinaga,

knowing more than everyone else. And being so smart and so inscrutable and so impenetrable, but we have to trust him completely. Because there were a number of instances in this episode of a lot of characters, including in the Stick of Time scene that gave the episode its name, that also invented red light districts,

congratulations, that things were falling a little too easily in this negative direction, and Toranaaga just seems to be okay with it. And he's too okay with it. And he seems mostly consumed with meddling with Pantaro. Mariko's marriage.

It is some gamesmanship. It's gamesmanship. I love that there's like a fucking earthquake decimates his forces and he's like, Mariko, you must. You've got to hang out with this barbarian

some more. You have to spend more time with this guy. Yeah. Do you think that we're missing a scene when Yabashige explains his invention of cucking? And he's just like, it's very interesting to watch. it can be quite satisfying.

Do you think that there's an element of that to this? I like that we're both like struggling with how to do the voices without speaking Japanese fluently yet. Without speaking Japanese fluently, yes. Yeah. I think, again, is crucial. Stick of Time was like a, I think a pretty contemplative episode, but when you look at just because there was a lot of long conversational scenes,

a lot of people telling stories about their past, a lot of people putting up examples of mythology versus reality or truth which I thought was really effective

I thought that Psyke like the half brother who showed up was like a classic awesome

gear shift energy changing thermostat guy like just really was like had a different sort of a vibe to

is the way he spoke the way he behaved obviously was somebody who just could not give a fuck about sort of propriety and familial bonds and also spoke to probably a lot of the anxieties that anybody outside of like the royal line feels in this world. Do you think that Cosmo Jarvis's note for his performance during the banquet scene was just to be like,

I assume that he saw the translation of the script so he knew it was going on because his face was definitely giving, oh, it's all right when he does it. Bit of a twat rude talking about diarrhea incontinent lees appalling and yet somehow

tolerable interesting you know like he's fine with it he basically is Japanese blackthorn he's saying whatever he wants and everybody's just just dealing with it

yes great great energy guy this was also you know not to keep beating the same drum but super thronesy in the sense where like there's always a rogue brother

or someone who has that, you know, like Walter Frey or like the blackfish. There's always like, oh, there's the black sheep relative who we can just boss around at this moment. Or that we're going to have to do a delicate dance with. And what was awesome about that banquet scene and I think allows you to sort of evolve past the Game of Thrones comparison is that it was red weddingy

but in a Shogun way. In the sense that when you realized that a trap had been set or that it was going a different way, it was played almost entirely on people's faces. And when so much of Shogun is about the faces that are kept away, that are kept hidden, the way that the episode articulated the inner lives of the characters through performance, through direction, was outstanding. Like, I got, my pulse was racing.

It was a thrilling sequence so beautifully put together when nothing physically changes. Everyone stays seated. everyone assume presumably gets through the next course of the meal, but everything changes. They didn't even just stay seated. I mean, a lot of the stuff that is being discussed and a lot of the ideas that are being thrown around

are ones that we've kind of... I like the fact that this show is able to do variations on a theme throughout its season without it ever feeling boring or like we're retreading things. Like, for instance, like, we know John can't have his boat. We know Bontaro is batting third in the three-bri-brotty problem with his wife and John. And we know that Toranaug's kid is a liability,

and Omi as a snake. Like, these things keep coming up. But I think it's actually just deepening my, like, like, like, like, we don't have enough story to extend this out problem. Here's what's wild about this show. And it makes me, honestly,

makes me respect the patient development process that FX demonstrated here so much more. Because if you were to have told me at the beginning of the season, and again, I've not read the book, I've not seen the miniseries. So my understanding of this material is very, very limited.

Did both in Japanese? actually. Well, I've been, I've been, I'm trying to catch up with you. But I think the one thing that I felt I understood in my bones about this, just by the fact that FX was willing to commit so many resources to putting it back on the air, was I was, I was certain that six of the ten episodes did not take place in the fishing village of Isou. Yeah. Do you know what I mean?

Yes. Like I would have, I would have promised you sight unseen that it moved around a little bit more. When they were like, we're going to stop here for a minute. I was like, right, for like, episode. Yeah, Yabashige's place. It's a great place to hide out. Oh, there's some nice real estate. Oh, we're moving him in. Oh, okay, Fumi's taking care of the garden? Yeah. Well, it does seem like we're really settling in. But no, this is just where the show is set now for at least 60% of the season. And yet, to your point, it feels completely vibrant and alive. A couple other notes here.

Okay. A lot in this episode happens in public bathing spots. Hmm. Yeah, what's your take on? this. Should we bring this back? Hmm. Imagine this. You're home Sunday night. And you open your bathroom door and I am in your bathtub. This is a dream of mine.

I've actually had this. And I'm like, Andy, let's talk about Ripley. You know, like, like, let's do a pre-pro meeting on the watch. Let's like talk it out. I'll also tell me all about your vacation, but I'm going to be bathing while this happens. A couple quick, couple quick follow-ups. Now, this is a bathtub.

so this is not a like steam situation. Is it a bubble bath? Because I want to know... How much visibility you have here? Yeah. I want to know what you're showing me and what you're telling me. I'd wear that little like thing that Yabushika has. Because when he was a disrobing, I was like,

holy shit, we're about to get like whole hog here. And it was, uh, he was discreet. Also, I got to say, as somebody who just did a workout yesterday and won't be doing a workout for some time in the future, Yabashige looks pretty good Yeah, he swings that sword We're getting to that scene, I sure But he was like pretty cut

I thought for a guy who acts like he's not Who's like, I'm old, you know, like Chris, it's always armed day When you're living in the samurai era, okay? Like that is not easy to do They're also eating clean foods, you know Delicious, yeah, they're eating It's like pure proteins

Just some fermented soybeans, no dairy obviously Yeah, rice wine, a lot of it out of small vessels, so you're kind of doing portion control. I like that you're calling out the front and back curtain that he's wearing. That really ties the room together. Yeah, I think that your idea about doing more business, nude in baths, look, you're making a compelling argument for it. But I just think that we don't live in a place that is just rife with hot springs

where you could just drop trow and hop in, you know, in a way. I think the idea of walking into someone's home and running a bath it just creates more problems than it's worth, honestly. Like in terms of water conservation issues? That's right. Yeah, the LATWP has got me. I did have, I've never had a dream where you were in my bathtub. I did recently, I think I, did I tell you this,

I did have a dream where you were co-hosting the Emmys? Did I tell you that? You did not tell me that. Who was I co-hosting with? Well, it's faded. There were about, I don't want to like, you know, blow too much smoke. They were like, it was like a group hosting thing. There were like eight people hosting, and you were in the rotation.

Okay. But here's the thing about the dream. dream. I thought you did a great job and I was happy for you. That was my dream. It was the most vanilla dream. You did a great job co-hosting the Emmys. I really wish I had dreams like that. Mine are just like so riddled with like deep childhood anxieties. Really? I think I just have like the same dreams that I did when I was a kid. They're just translated into today, you know? Oh, I see. So Ansel Elgort, Bill Simmons, and Yabashige are on one team and they try to do the suicide squeeze

and the ball is fired home and you're like, is this correct? I'm trying to think of like your I assume your childhood anxieties. But then it turns out I'm only wearing front and back napkins. But you're wearing them sideways by accident. A couple other notes I have here. What did you think of

Toranaga boy warlord? That's a job that we have largely excised from the occupations we trust children with. Boy Lord. Yeah. I did think that the show kind of buried the lead. I'm like,

how did a 12-year-old end up in charge of an army? I feel like there's a number of procedural failings, honestly, that it would have fallen to him to begin with, but he did do a good job.

So, I don't know, maybe some kids are just built different. Did you have a kid in sixth grade who you're like, that kid could lead an army? There was a dude who was like a couple of grades above us who was like,

just one of those classic like any game any sport he would just be good at immediately you know right and I wonder whether or not it's across some of us have to bear

I get it but so you're saying so your idea of a successful boylord would be someone who is just like easily adaptable athletic and like yeah I can just pick up a soccer ball

and be like I get it you know not necessarily like the kid who's just like shaving in sixth grade. No, that kid was always a bit disturbing, and I was never quite sure that he was actually the age he's claim to be, you know? Danny Almonte style.

Because I was going to, you beep me to Danny Almonte. Yeah. I was like, okay. All right, so Little League scandal is what you're saying. You mentioned that we've been in EZU for quite some time. Yeah. And I just do want to say, this is not a critique. It's just a request.

I miss my Portuguese guys, you know? They are fun. And I felt like the show was very well-rounded with them in it. It's not like I have affinity for romance languages or, you know, Latin or whatever. It's just that I enjoyed those guys and the perspective that they brought. But again, I think that the- But realistically, like, I understand why they're limiting it, you know, in terms of what you're seeing. There's an element to what, to this conversation that I think will come back when we talk about the end of three-body problem.

but so much of television storytelling, but particularly ambitious television storytelling, is making efficient use of the real estate that you have. And I think that what Shogun understands is, and it's building it in really subtle ways. Like the stick of time scene where they discuss a red light district essentially is part of something that has been, I think that is central to understanding Shogun,

but has also been really wonderfully subtle, which is a vision for the future of this country and this realm, as they call it. And Toranaga's vision for a unified Japan, what it could look like in the future. And he... And his resistance to having that come about through being a warlord, bringing back the Shogun, right? But also, he will be if he succeeds in this. And to him, it's not a coup.

To him, it's not assuming power. It's just protecting the realm for the Tycho's heir, being the correctly sober, you know, caretaker, essentially, until that happens. the role of the Portuguese in that is very much in flux. Right. So to have them, you know, they're essentially waiting to see who wins. And so I think that it would not have been the best use of real estate to focus on them being like, you know, more stew, please. Yeah.

I mean, it's also very savvy. Look, this show is obviously, it was expensive to make, but I think that they had a budget. And I think having Isu be this sort of fulcrum location, which it was the where they were in the first few episodes when Blackthorne washed up on shore in the first place and now where they've returned does make sense in just a production sense. Also, you know, I think it's very respectful to the guy they boiled

who got a callback. Yeah, that's true. You know? That's true. I watch my ship and my men. One's been boiled. It's tough. Should we wrap up three body problem? Wait, just for Shogun, I just, I did want to ask you, like, do you, what is your sense? The show has given us such a consistent,

and we should wrap up three body problem. I'm almost ready to do it. But like, the show has given us a very consistent sense of what to expect week to week. And it's, it's been interesting how much we've sunk into this isu era. Like, it's given us such space and grace to, like, uncover these characters and their relationships to each other, both in action or just in terms of, you know, cross eyes and the way they look at each other and the way they talk to each other. Something bigger is coming. This is a, from what we understand, a one-season show. do you have a I guess it's a two-part question

like do you have a prediction for how how big the action is going to get because I think that this is a first bell in Hallfamer in the we don't have HBO's budget all-stars because no show that I remember in history is so successfully done the we the camera joins a battle having recently ended with a lot of bodies on the battlefield

I thought the earthquake was really effectively done and it was a really good use of VFX to see from Torinaga's POV up on the hillside It's like the land kind of just swept into the town. I would imagine, given the name of an episode coming up, which is Crimson Sky, that they're just, they're not ready to let that one go. And that we could get some type of violence. But yeah, I think that there is probably a major action set piece in our horizon.

Okay. And do you feel like that is in the spirit of the show that you've been watching? Like, are you ready to switch gears in your fandom for that sort of thing? It's a non-essential but beneficial part of the show. I do not watch this because I want six sword fights. I watch it because I just find the interplay between the characters to be fascinating. And this execution of this show of releasing it week to week and the sort of momentum of people talking about it

and obviously really kind of enjoying it on Tuesday nights when they get back from work or are able to watch it has been so cool. And it is an example of why I think weekly releases do work, especially for hour-long dramas like this. Like banging out the amount of Tokyo Vice that I watched yesterday was like it eventually got into like the I'm in a trance and just want to watch this zone. But you're like, man, like, binging this stuff is hard.

You know, like binging this stuff really does is time consuming and it is probably better to watch it week to week like that. Also, Chekhov's boat has to come in at some point. Like I don't think you can have this many episodes of our guy being like, I've got a boat. Can't use swords. Like I don't think you could... A short canoe ride.

I promise. It's right there. I can see it. Marico. And your permission. I'll leave. Yeah, because he's not... He's not so...

He's not that guy who was a few years older than you at school. Yes. In terms of his ability to just pick up... He's not going to all of a sudden become a great swordsman. The playoffs are here. And you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandulul Predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses.

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it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me. The Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms apply. All right, let's talk about three body problem. When we last, We got to do it. We did Judgment Day, which was the incredible nanofibers versus boat set piece that shredded much of the resistance to humanity on Earth, or I guess humanity would be the resistance to being taken over, depending which way you look at it. And then we get into a kind of different kind of show, I think, a very fast-paced, in some ways,

unmysterious if the first few episodes were kind of defined. by the, what's this video game? What's the blinking? What's the countdown? What's going on? How does the 1960s in China tie into what's going on today? You get all those mysteries kind of answered and solved by episode five.

And then 6, 7, and 8 are a sci-fi kind of on the lines of Armageddon and Apollo 13 of like a rescue mission or a mission to save humanity.

And it's breakneck. It's doing a lot of almost like, yes, and. It moves so fast. It almost feels improvisatory. I was curious whether or not you agreed with the fifth episode as a kind of like, this is the one version of the show

and then there's another version of the show afterwards. And if you had a preference between the two. I think it's a great point, and it was absolutely the right inflection point to pause on, because the first few episodes... And Andy finished it, and we're going to be spoiling.

going forward. So yeah. Yeah. I think the first few episodes up to Judgment Day really highlighted the talents that David Benioff and D.B. Weiss and Alexander Wu have in adapting, you know, I think everyone is saying relatively unadaptable material. I think they correctly identified ways to get their arms around large concepts, sprawling character design, large amounts of time, and build it and sort of bend it into the shape of a season of television or an episodic television that really hit. I will forever talk about how the end of episode two, when Way and Jay responds. Yeah. That's the kind of moment that I've been chasing on television since the heyday of lost. Yeah. Like an absolute jaw drop. Holy shit. This is so exciting. I can't wait to watch more.

I can't wait to talk about it. I can't wait to think about it when I'm going to sleep tonight kind of thing. Like that's, that works and they hit it. I think the subsequent episodes that we're going to be talking about more today, highlight just how challenging this project is. It's essentially, I don't want to say impossible because they did it, but to try to then spin what was to the best of their ability a, not never granular, but a more lived in race against time, what's this countdown, what's happening right now to the almost intangible in four centuries something bad is going to happen, but we have to make you care about it today, it's wild. I mean, the opening moments of episode six, which is the reaction to the eye in the sky incident, which I didn't realize

was an incident. I thought the sky was walled off forever, but that was not the case. Essentially, does the entire three-season run of the leftovers and a Chiron, where they're like mass suicides, religious movements. The show's not interested in that. The show can't keep up with that. I don't want to say that was a mistake because at some point you were going to have to grapple with like, how is everybody else reacting to this. Yes. But it was, I think, frustrating that they introduced that

idea and introduced the idea that the world is coming apart at the seams, but that these 12 people are always well fed, well groomed, have places to stay, and, like, have an endless supply chain of stuff to work from, and I seemingly are

unbothered by, like, society collapsing. Well, and that the wheels of, of their plot machinations are always well greased and lubricated. That despite literally all, everything that anyone had known and counted on, falling apart, all of humanity can agree that the best solve for this problem is three people called wallfacers. Like, just the branding issues alone would derail us for a century, or in terms of the naming things. And I think that we're going to get a little more critical as we talk about these episodes. I want to before any of that to say something and just laid out, maybe even it's just a question for you.

which is this. I loved this show. I loved watching it. I loved thinking about it. I loved explaining some of the, not all of the plot, to my daughters, because they thought it was interesting

as we were like on car rides. I was going to ask you, have you considered introducing the wall facer to like whatever your kids are getting unruly and you're like, let's play wallfacer

where nobody, your greatest gift is your silence. It's not going to work, yes, first of all, but it's not going to work. because unlike Beniof, Weiss, and Wu, my children have understood and learned the concept of the written word, which you can also do. You could just write things on paper. But I think that the eye in the sky would have like cams on that. There's not cams on, there's only cams and there's only an eye in the sky when a character that can't die yet is on an airplane. Do you know what I mean? Like it's, we'll get into that. Okay. My point is, I find it really interesting and I wanted to get your thoughts on this, why I can love something so much and then also be like, yish. This is kind of a mess, especially as it got deeper into the season.

I say this with open heart. I really hope they make a second season of this. I will watch every second of it. This show may likely be on my top ten list, but also I think it's kind of a disaster at times. And I'm trying to square those things. It's not a response I've had to a television show in a long time. I think one of the things that happens in the second half of the season also is that there is this thrill of they start building up

Mike Evans and this character that Jonathan Price is playing and I think we're we go into the show with our Game of Thrones brains and we see you know

we see Price and we expect like a very significant character and he is significant but he gets killed midway through the first season of this show and then the show

does not have a replacement villain yet and I don't mean to break things down to their most basic like comic book level like understanding of a story, but you do kind of have a missing counterweight as these people are running around

and inventing nuclear bomb sales and chopping off people's heads to send into space. Yeah, there's the video game woman. There is the eye in the sky. There's Tatiana still AWOL, but we don't have like a person who's articulating the alien side of it, for lack of a better term. Do we have like a formidable villain that would make society rush through like all these different permutations of how to save itself? So the show is called, I mean, the show in the book, it's called three body problem because

in theory, you know, again, I am a quantum physicist. That is not solvable, right? Like that is the thing that defines it. I think that the adapters looked at this project and they were like, here's something that we can solve for. From what they have said, from what others who have read the book have said, I want to be careful, but it was my own experience, too, reading the first 50 pages. What I was reading was head spinning and thrilling. I was not reading it for the characters or for the rich inner emotional

lives of people. There were incredible concepts and huge, huge, huge ideas, ideas that span galaxies. The solve for that is to make the show about a group of friends who are then thrown into this. And I think that that was, and we can get into some of the specific choices made, both in terms of characters and also in terms of casting later, but like that was a smart solve for that larger problem. The second half of the season's problem, though, I don't think there's a solve for, which is that this is a book and a trilogy that is told in three timelines, the past, the present, and deep into the future, all about a looming threat in humanity's response to a looming threat. I do not know, and I hope no one spoils it for me whether the aliens show up and they're like,

hi, we look like bugs, we're here to get you. That's not where we're at with this show. It is just fundamentally either impossible or close to impossible to create week to week or binge to binge stakes when the threat is four centuries away. The natural response would be let's make humans the enemy, which we always are in stories like this ultimately, right? Like that is the lesson of the Walking Dead universe in addition to almost every other genre piece or horror piece. But I don't know why I said peace.

This is not, we're not talking about the Celtics. but this show can't do that for the reasons I said in terms of the first problem it's not a show that is that interested in the day-to-day emotional life of anyone when you compound that with the fact that when they did have the opportunity to make people as they did in the first part of the season

from what I understand some characters are one-to-one even if their gender has been changed or they're no longer Chinese and some are created or composite characters This also goes back to how much real estate do you have when you're spending $20 million for eight episodes so you can't really get deep in these people's lives. I sometimes don't...

I don't know who's not interested in making someone a fully realized human being or if there just wasn't room for it, but we didn't really get very many of them. You know, I think maybe Will is the closest because all he really has to do is sit on a beach and die. But largely speaking, the language of this show is not characters expressing things

or feeling things. characters reacting to things and then just being like, ah, yes, my nanofibers can do that in space. So, I don't know. I've talked myself in a circle. I think, in a way, I feel like watching this is a little bit like playing that game where I'm like, I'm seeing things happen. I think this is amazing and cool.

I'm going to keep trying to solve for it. And say, like, well, I like this and I'm going to envision this will work. I'll touch the ground and did this work? Did I really believe in these characters in their love story? No. But maybe there'll be a stable error. Yeah, but I will say that I, did, I don't know that I was ever

deeply moved by, but I was affected by the idea that this guy who has essentially a death sentence anyway asks Jin to tell him not to go. And she doesn't. And I thought that that was like a well done

moment and actually set up the emotional kind of ground for this dude to make this choice. And even the going through the series of hit this number, hit that number to confirm. to triple confirm that you're going to go. Yep.

They also do a very good job in the compressed runtime of a season as opposed to in Game of Thrones this would have been three or four seasons of you've got Yovana Deppo. He's standing there like smoking pot for most of the season and you're just like,

you must have something else for this guy to do. And they do. And it actually pays off and works in Wallfacer. Now, do I think that they spend most of Wallfacer of him being like, why am I being chosen to do this?

And everybody being like, soon you will know, but I cannot tell you. Yes, I think that that is a little bit silly. But it is a cool way of taking characters who have been relegated to the bench and bringing them into the game, which they are very adept at doing. Yeah, but I mean, let's talk about that specifically. Because that was a complaint I had, which is that here's an actor that I really like, here's a character that seems like he has a lot of potential from the way he's introduced. and then he spends the majority of the season

having one night stands smoking pot. Actually, he sounds pretty cool. No, but honestly, he is, and then just being the all-time greatest best friend, no offense, Emmy host to be your Chris Ryan, but like, this guy, this guy is like, I've got, I'm just your guy. I'm just going to live with you every second.

We're just going to hang out. By the way, this show makes pancreatic cancer seem pretty okay, right? Like, my guy is just, his main difference between the first half of the season and the second half of the season is that he's sitting down. Yeah. That's really the only negligible difference in his life. Do you think it was selfish of him to just keep asking people to go on vacation when it was like, we are working on something?

It's not like I can't get away from three zooms a day. Like, I'm literally trying to stop an alien invasion. I thought it was, well, first of all, everyone can work from home. It's not an issue. I think Augie, who we have a lot more to say about, was working through some other thing. Also, her employment status and anyone's employment status with Wade seems nebulous at best. Yeah. Like, is that direct deposit?

Like, what's going on there? That's my question. The amount of time she spent actually designing a nuclear space sale for the planetary defense force. That's great point. Because that's the amount of time it usually takes to sign up for direct deposit and do the mandatory like workplace behavior videos at any other place. She's already gone. She's already gone at that point.

Anyway, but specifically I do want to talk. about the Sol thing because on your theoretical whiteboard where you're dreaming up like, oh, 300 nuclear explosions should work, setting up that character like that, you love it. You love it. You're a year out from production and you're like, this is incredible because we're planting the seeds. We actually do have real estate this way to make you care about someone before you, oh, sneaky, guess what? He's the main character of season two. I love that design. I love that plan. the problem with it was was what you said. It is entirely reactive at that point

where the deepest conversation he's ever had with anyone where he's articulating a viewpoint that TBH, I kind of agree with. And I clearly was a debate within the room too, which is we have to not only convince these characters, we're going to have to convince the audience that the best thing to do with your life at this moment when nothing is changing for you

and your bloodline for generations is to give up everything. Yes. Right? he had to articulate that, but that opening scene where then his one-night's end gets hit by three Teslas in a row, which I believe happened at the Grove last week. So I do think this is ripped from the headlines. He's, from that point on, he is kind of like the audience just being dragged along. Now, the other risky part is that I think the audience is a little bit ahead of him

because clearly the joke that Yewenz-J says to him is the key to everything. Is the riddle that will solve everything, yes. But he, but that is relatively, but that is really, to him on a beach with Augy. What is it, don't play with God? Is that what it was? Yes. Okay. But there's a line that he stood out even more because of the way it played, which is like,

when he says to Augie on the beach, actually I think I know I am here, but I'm not going to talk about it. It's like, well, which is it? Like, we're building these heroes whose job is to basically fight, is because they exist because the aliens apparently don't have telepathy. Where do we actually have telepathy? in the world when we're reading a novel. It's the only time we can actually read people's minds. And I don't know if we get into that in the book at all

or if they're just pretty stoic in the book as well. But that is a triply tough sell on a television show where we can't actually have access to what they're thinking. Do you feel like you'd be a good wall facer? No. Look what we do for a living. I would be worried that like I would be dope at wallfacing

but misunderstand the assignment and come back and be like, guys, I fix the Sixers. situation. This is right. The thing is that I think is under-soul. Guys, I've learned Japanese. I didn't. This is right. In a different, in different hands, right? One episode would be like, Secretary General, I need to fly to Tokyo tonight. I need to go on one of those cool-ass airplanes that have private

suites. When I get there, I will be visiting Lady Jin's district for reasons of my own research purposes just to see how it worked out for her. That would be amazing. I was just like, I have an Emirates Airbus like fueled ready to go and I get the private room all the time.

Yes. And I'm just like, man, Chris has been to Vegas a lot. Chris keeps taking the dreamliner to Portland to hang out with his friends. Don't you think that's weird? It also just kind of...

How many times can one guy go see you two? Oh? Like, why? does he need his own sphere? That's odd. Just for pavement to get back together. Can you imagine your meeting with James Dolan? Like, sir, the wallfacer.

Wallfacer, Chris Ryan, needs Archers of Loaf in Vegas. He's also going to need you to trade Jalen Brunson to the Sixers. Yeah, we need that. We did all the Philo Nova Alums stat. I, when you're playing in this rarefied air, though, like where, you know, the aliens can see everything and do everything because that becomes the threat, right, at the end of the season, is that they, everything that's happening, they are allowing to happen. And again, what's interesting about that is the overlap with religion. And the show tries to try to explicate some of that very explicitly with the My Lord stuff, but also the like, well, if it happened, it was meant to happen. And if it doesn't happen, it wasn't.

Like, that's, that's an interesting through line about the role religion plays in some people. lives regardless of VR alien space technology. But if you're existing in a space where the threat, the minute-to-minute threat is that they can do anything, including have someone ready to shoot you when you walk outside without Benedict Wong, not really sure what Benedict Wong would have done in that opportunity. Also, I didn't know shooting people in the upper left shoulder is the preferred way for assassins to strike. But again, I've never, I'm not that guy who you went to school with, who knows how to do things instantly. That's right. He just picked up assassination so easily. It then you get into that overpowered, omnipotent God enemy thing where if they want to kill Saul so badly, why is he flying to Cape Canaveral with no problem?

Why can he walk on the beach with no problem? It makes you use that part of your brain, the nitpicking part of your brain, when you don't want to be using it. I guess they lean into it with the Wade scene at the end where they shake up his plane, but they're like, we like you. It's this weird thing where the villains are not there enough, but then also too powerful. do you think that there's also like that the majesty of what they pull off in terms of like the eye in the sky and even though the blinking stars uh winds up being it kind of overshadows like what humans could be capable combat like in some ways like i almost feel like the execution of that idea was like well these guys so like the whole premise is essentially right like their technology is ahead of

But humans advance at such a rate that by the time they get here, humans will have advanced. So their whole thing is we're going to disrupt your technological and scientific advancement, right? Yeah, we're going to stop it, which goes back to the pilot of the episode, the first episode, where all the scientists becoming despondent. Yeah. Yeah, I guess I'm just kind of like the replacement of Jonathan Price and his cohort with these more almost. like spiritually grand obstacles. I think it's problematic for storytelling. But I'm sure, like, obviously,

like, I think this show goes into book two. I'm not sure how far into the books they are. But, like, I'm sure they have a solve for it coming. But I don't find Tatiana as like a, you know, kind of like, I guess, what is she? Like, a born again assassin for them, like to be like. Yeah. And then also she, she, but they're also,

the aliens are also a steps ahead of her. her because they're still leaving video game consoles for her, which suggests that she's not as plugged into their matrix as she would like. Everyone's just a tool of it. And again, it makes you ask the questions you don't want to ask, which I think the book elides by not being very interested in the day-to-day existence of people on Earth and more of these larger conceits. Like, these aliens know everything at all time. At every moment, they know everything that everyone is saying on Earth and doing, yet they thought Little Red Riding Hood was true. Yeah, right.

I don't understand that. It gets us to an interesting place, but that's a tough leap, right? I mean, for what it's worth, if I was offered the title of Wallfacer, I would spend the next 30 years just dining at the fine restaurants all around the world and at the end of it be like,

my plan is there's 297 nuclear bombs on a string right on their glide path towards Earth. I'm going to blow them up in 400 years, right? Yes. like that seems that seems to be the way to do it without they've used all those nukes yeah but they didn't but they haven't used

they're just there right because they fucked up on like the fifth one yeah right the other question I have that's slightly critical is like the great TV shows are made with the specific decisions you make on the margins that you don't notice but add up to the larger

consistent whole and like we're in episode 8 so give me an example of that what are you feeling the tension Well, I'm going to give you a negative example, which doesn't feel all that fair, but like, why did they choose budget Dan Levy to be the guy who's announcing what's happening in space moment to moment? Like, why was that guy with his hipster hairdo? Be like, four, three, two, we have lost the probe. Like, why is that guy doing that?

That took me all the way out. You know what I mean? I would not. That's so weird. That's what I'm a guy. How many times have we been in Cape Canaveral in TV and movies? okay and how many times have they been how many times have they had hipster haircuts it's always a guy who looks like

Ed Harris who's only eaten cigarettes for 30 years I wanted that guy that took me out that took me out that didn't bother you you're super into it I guess I just also assume that everybody who's there like that Wade has just taken over all facilities so like it's not necessarily the dudes who are doing mission control for NASA that now it's like

it's like the Wade initiative people and maybe he has like more of a hipster haircut kind of, you know, require that's who he recruits? Yeah. Well, this is also a world where Augie Salazar has invented the world's greatest technology. So, okay, I buy it. She cleaned up water, man.

In terms of, she cleaned up one water once. You know what I mean? Let's see what she's had in season two. Would you want to be drinking tons of nanofiber water? Oh, you think it's like microplastics? Yeah. You think your body will become tons of... I think nanoplastics would be less of a problem.

problem for a human biome. I just got worried about microplastics, like, this week. This week? What have you been doing up to this week? Drinking a ton of bottled water out of plastic bottles. You know the way some people eat the whole apple, like they eat the core and then look at you, be like, what, no waste? Do you do that with Evian bottles?

You just crunched down? Your body is macroplastics? Who do you prefer in terms of stoic, know-at-all leaders who are 10 steps ahead of you. Do you prefer the Toranauga style or the Wade style? Wade seems like he has a better benefits package.

For himself, yeah. But almost everybody works from him, he's like, you'll have it. Like, I'll make the call and like that's... Chili peppers. Yeah. But like for Toranaugia, I feel like there's a lot of like

initiation rituals you have to go through. Also with Wade, it's cool. All you have to do is be like, no, and he's like, and that's exactly why I've hired you. If you said yes, you'd be the wrong person. Do you think if Toranauga was in charge of planetary defense, he'd be like, Augi, be like, Saul, you and Augie, what's the story there? Live together for a while.

Yeah. He is like that. No, he would make Will live with Gin and Raj. Wait. He already hired Raj, and then he hired Jin, and then he made Jin tell Will to choose death and eject his brain into space. all of our shows at the moment are like psychosexual warlords. Yeah, they really,

we need more boy warlords. This is it. If we have boy warlords running the Wade initiative, we wouldn't have these problems. Also, honestly, the one thing about three body problem that really hits different

is we have an aging leader who says he's the only one up for the task. And so rather than train anyone else to take over in the next four centuries, he's like, I'll just freeze myself and unfreeze myself for a week at a time. That was actually,

I was like, be fucking for real. You can't do that. They're going to do it. You saw what happened to the cartoon monkey. But you can't, can you freeze and unfreeze constantly

to like just check Wimbledon? That's where we're headed. That's where we're going to keep Liam Cunningham on the show for however many seasons. What would you consider to be an adequate reason for unfreezing yourself

while traveling into deep space? Like, what would you want to be unfrozen to find out about? Oh, if the Sixers make it past the second round. Okay, I thought you were to be like drops of God season two. That seems more likely, honestly, than anything else. Last thought on this for the moment, but like, the will part, I think, is in some ways the most successful because it's the most human and it does have a lot of time to develop.

It's the least jargony, too. Like, it's just a guy who kind of is conversant in this stuff, but has never found a purpose in his life. Right. is dying young is like the third person in all of his friends' lives except for Saul who's just like I'll just hang out here constantly

and it just works like I have no idea why Augie is as mad as she is you know like I don't know why she's constantly swearing and smoking and pissed or even why like her and Saul have any interest in one another or why that's like some sort of long loss of love but Will actually makes sense

and it's maybe it's because that character is so sedentary. And it's so you're only really given that character's internal life and not much of like here's the mission that I'm on and I've either failed it or succeeded. Do you, would you be down with that project? Would you be

willing to have your brain shot into space with some chili peppers? I don't see why not if I was staring down you know, 10 more days of life. Like I don't, like, I'm not precious about it. If you're going to get like cremated anyway, like what's the big deal. Well, that's the thing. Like we actually don't know what's going to happen anyway.

so being reanimated by some aliens to find out what's up. That's cool. We're going to unfreeze Walt Disney's brain and get back to the source. You know, you could do a lot of stuff there. I shouldn't say that probably. He does seem litigious.

Yeah, it's weird that we end up just sort of joking about it because I think that so much of the show is really commendable, really admirable. I really did love it. There wasn't a single moment while watching it

that I didn't want to be watching it, except when the monkey was the, the fake monkey was barfing. That was my one. I was like, that's... Oh, yeah, because he was like

that he had like air sickness. Do you want to talk a little bit about Top Chef before we go or should we save it? I do want to talk about it.

There's too much three body problem. I had one other thing about it. All right, let's do that. Which is... We can save Top Chef if you want for Monday.

So, like, give me the rest of your three body problems. Okay, but I want people watching Top Chef to be up on Last Chance Kitchen too because I want to talk about that, including you,

Chris Ryan. I'm sorry. Is Last Chance Kitchen usually come out this early in the season? They started it after the second episode. So there's two episodes deep. Okay. And there's a reason why it's different this season.

I don't want to spoil the surprise, but it is different, and I'm interested in the way that it's different. I love how you're guarding Top Chef spoilers with your life, but we're just like, and then this guy gets shredded in Three Body Problem. I have to be careful because, as Kaya has told me, everyone who listens to the podcast

listens to every minute of it consecutively, the moment it's released. So Three Body Problem. I think wildly ambitious, hit or miss in a lot of ways, for me, largely a hit just because I want this type of swing. I want this type of storytelling. I really like the ideas behind it, and I was really compelled by it. I think it's been interesting for a project that is in some ways in the old media model a slam dunk, right? Whether it's for creative reasons, whether it's for aesthetic reasons, or just purely financial reasons in terms of the sunk cost of Beniof and Weiss and their Netflix deal.

This is one of the most expensive TV shows ever made already. And it's, you know, for as much as this is a reliable metric, it's top 10, top five, top three in most countries around the world. Sex and the city isn't ahead of it yet? I think it's coming up close. Which, by the way, those are the two things the three-body problem is uninterested in. Absolutely. Sex or life in cities. So it's a nice package deal.

And yet I get the sense, at least, you know, just from tea leaves. I don't have any inside knowledge, but I do get the sense that a sense. second season is not guaranteed. I would find that to be astonishing. It would be astonishing, but there have been things that have been astonishing in the last few years in terms of companies. To me, this would be like making, first of all, that would be so stupid. Like, what are you doing this for?

Just make Redbox movies and rom-coms then, and don't worry about telling multi-season television arcs if you don't want to bring this back. I don't know why you would invest in it. It's then I honestly would find it to be super. frustrating as a viewer coming to it later and getting to the eighth episode and be like, that's it? You guys aren't even making any more of this? Like, to me, you have to commit to three seasons of this or whatever many seasons they said. And furthermore, it's like, give people more than five minutes to get into something, you know? Like, I think that something like this.

It's been a couple weeks. I watch it over a weekend. You watch it over the course of two or three weeks. Some people are going to take two or three months or some people might not find it until the summer when school's out or whatever it is. Like, I don't know. It's just like the burn and churn of that stuff really is a bummer. I would hope that those guys had some pretty strong assurances that they were going to get to tell the full story that they were signing up for unless it was an unmitigated disaster,

which I don't think it was. Which it's not. And I think that they have said that in their view, they have four seasons of this. There is, knowing how Netflix works behind the scenes, I mean, many, many, many Netflix shows that have been canceled have they are canceled after they have four. fully funded writers rooms for the seasons that will ever air.

That is business as usual for them. So they are ready to go to whatever degree they're ready to go at this stage in their production cycle anyway with the second season. And I agree with you. I agree with you. It should happen for storytelling reasons. And I agree with you. It just should happen for the health of the industry.

I mean, it's insane. It would be an insane expense. It would be not unlike to me, Amazon spending all that money on the Lord of the Rings of Power, then being like, that wasn't as good as we thought. was going to be we're done. Like, forget it. The quarter of a billion that we've spent on this, forget it. It's like, yeah, like, why are you doing it in the first place?

You may have to, like, spend a little to make a little here. And I don't know how they make what they make off of blockbusters. Blockbuster movies or Blockbuster successful? I can see the money coming into Warner's for Dune 2. Like, it's a box office return. You can kind of get a sense of how much they've spent. You kind of have a sense of how much it needs to make for it to be a, a very profitable movie.

It makes a lot of sense. If three-body problem is only effective if it signs up new customers, I don't know how many more people out there who don't have Netflix are going to get it. And they probably won't be doing that for a very dense science fiction show. It's interesting because in the conversation

around the decision, and just for the record. We're also getting really mad at Netflix when they haven't said, like, we're not bringing it. It's not like they're not. No, I think it'll come back. Yeah. I think that it'll come back.

God damn it Bella. But I find the conversation interesting because in one of the Hollywood reporter stories, and I apologize, I don't have it in front of me, but like one of the heads, not Bella, but one of the heads of scripted programming for Netflix, it's described as being very personal to him, that like he's passionate about the story,

he loves this book. It's interesting to me anytime one of these streamers, but particularly Netflix, lapses into old world language of humanity. I just like this material. Yeah. I love this. I want to see this, you know,

so I want to make sure that we empower. these creators to make it happen. Now, again, like, if the reports are true that this show costs $20 million an episode for this season, that's insane. And perhaps borderline you're responsible. And when you end up in this world where it's like, yes, Netflix has to stand for more than the floor is lava and singular, like, subscription driving events, there's probably also a middle ground where you could get people to fall in love with brilliant scripted television and know that they can have more of it coming. But Netflix does that when they get suits and white collar. So I don't fully understand their thinking behind this, but this show is worthy of more.

I think that it's, I just find the whole thing interesting. It's Benioff and it's twice, and it's them trying to do what they did so successfully with Game of Thrones in a complete, it's just a few years later, but it's a different landscape with very, very different subject matter. And to hear them in these interviews doing what they did early in Game of Thrones too being like, well, we don't want to spoil it for the non-book readers, but R.W is coming if we get to do more. they are like, yeah, season three, we're going to do a thing. Okay. I'm interested.

Yeah. Andy, great talking to you today. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your well-earned break. And we will see each other in person on Monday. Yeah, do you want me to continue to give you 100-foot wave-style dispatches from the height of my two-inch, four-inch? Yeah, watch it out there. If the waves blow you towards the cliffs, it's over. So just be real careful.

Yeah. Thanks to Kyra for producing us. We'll be back on Monday. We'll be back on Monday. Probably talking a little bit of Ripley, maybe some sugar, some top chef, and whatever else happens over the weekend. Andy, great to see you. Spring break, Bernski's.