The Watch - ‘Shogun’ Episode 8, ‘Ripley’ Episode 3, and ‘Top Chef’ Episode 4

Episode Date: April 11, 2024

Chris and Andy talk about some news from the week, including the trailer for ‘Joker: Folie à Deux’ and the announcement that the John le Carré adaptation ‘The Night Manager’ will be returning for two more seasons (1:00). Then they talk about the latest episode of ‘Shogun’ (16:49) and Episode 3 of ‘Ripley’ (41:14) before discussing how they are liking this season of ‘Top Chef’ so far (53:04). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interests that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going.

Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up. and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com.

Joining me in the studio for our tea ceremony, it's Andy Greenwald! You nailed it. Thanks. You took you a second, but you got where you needed to go. Well, I mean, with this episode of Shogun, we could go in a lot of different directions,

but I don't really want to give anything away yet. We're going to talk about that episode of Shogun. We're going to talk a little bit about Top Chef, I swear to God. We will. Kai's already written a headline for today's show. Nothing but Top Chef. I think we'll also talk a bit about some TV news coming out of like the kind of post-cinema con and, you know, just like a lot of stuff happening. How are you?

I know because I saw you last night, but just. I'm great for the sake of the show. Do you want to talk about that? Well, if I keep talking, you can stop me at any time. I just podcasted for two hours with the big picture. So I'm just like going to keep rolling. And because if I stop, I think I might just collapse. So that was the opening act.

And now it's time for the headliner. That's right. We're going to play a very long set today. What's your... Oh, we're going to do Ripley's episode three? Yeah, I think so. Great. What's your proteins levels?

Proteins. I had some... I got to say, I really like full fat Greek yogurt. I know that's not a popular decision. Yes, it is. Wait, who's been... Who are your sources say? Nobody wants fake.

Yeah, they're like, you got to get that low fat. What, Huberman told you that? No. He didn't. I'm not an accolate of his, by the way. Uh-huh. But I just, you know, so I have... had some yogurt and some...

You need the full fats. There's healthy fats. Bananas in there. And a little bit riddle. I was out of blueberries. Probably a little bit of a glucose shot. I'm going to notice that. If you didn't have any superfoods today, I'm going to be able to tell. The listeners won't, but I've known you for a long time. And I know what you ate last night for dinner. You do. There was, I want, I feel like people don't need to know everything about our personal lives, but they do need to know when our personal lives mirror our professional on Mike Lives. And the highlight was last night when we went out to a a lovely local spot that has a draconian policy about like sitting down or not sitting down

when you're there, when you're not there. And I was parking. I was executing kind of a complicated maneuver, great spot, but had to really get in there. And you got, you walk past. Like we were both on time. I was like, hey, I was like, hello, friend. Just executing a turn here. Perhaps you hear the dinging of my vehicle as I attempt to.

Anyway, you clearly, I could see through the windshield that you spoke to the, lady up front and she was like there is a table are you all here yeah which is a crucial l a question and then you turned and with great great vigor gave me the two hand you're coming in let's go bring it in yeah it's not the time to check facebook my phone was not visible i have happened upon you sure okay countless times where like you're parked yeah i'm walking in and i walk by your Just a little private moment. You're just doing a little scrolling. And that's cool.

That's the time for it. But I was just like, I don't care if you scroll the table. I just need your warm body to get this table sat. Did you see, but could you, with your keen director's eye, see what was going on? Because I was trying to get my car. I didn't know you were moving your car up. There was a Chrysler minivan that was piloted by a guy who I swear to God

was a Channing Tatum impersonator. I was waiting for him to go. It's okay. What Kai is on the edge of her seat. Did we get the table? We sure did. We sure did. Greenwald, great to see you today, man.

I want to talk to you a little bit about... I want to start with the Joker Fouadeau? I definitely don't, but you do, so I'm sorry. I don't... Did you see the first Joker film? No. I don't really know if this is a good topic for our podcast then. I've heard it has a lot of interesting.

Here's the thing. I haven't seen the film, but I've heard the points of view espoused by its most ardent fans, and I'm interested. Okay. You know what I mean? that was just the big trailer from the week. I don't know. Maybe you're waiting for that wicked footage.

But that was the big one coming out of CinemaCon. Sean went to CinemaCon. That's amazing. Did they have a good time? It seems like it, yeah. What's your Joker take? You can share it here. It's just like I was just going to say that

Joaquin Phoenix Lady Gaga and Todd Phillips are three incredibly talented people. And I kind of just wish they were using this energy on something else. you wish that... Are you one of the people who's a little annoyed that Gaga gets equal credit that you feel like...

Like, Joker's really a movie about a man Joker? Like... She plays Harley Quinn. Okay. She doesn't play Lady Joker. Isn't that what Harley Quinn is? Are you mad about that?

I don't really know a lot about the extended Gotham universe to be completely on it. What happens in Arkham stays in Arkham, you know? Okay. Were you a fan of the first movie? I thought it was effective and I was like happy to have seen it.

I have not ever had an interest in watching it again or thinking about it much. I'm interested in the fact that, first of all, did you guys know? There's a lot of stuff that I feel like has been memory hold from pre-pandemic, but do you guys remember that Joaquin Phoenix won the best actor Oscar for the film Joker? Yeah. How many instances are there? I know Sean would know this at the top of his head of actors winning an Oscar and then playing the part again. like I

off the top of my head I don't I feel like Eddie Redmayne was really good in theory of everything too yeah but other than that I was going to say DDL and Lincoln 2 oh my gosh DDL crushed in Lincoln

too Lincoln 2 Lincoln 2 colon back to Gettysburg colon manhunt yeah that's true his shadow looms large I think that's interesting but I guess there's not much

traction there since again I have not seen the film I guess the reason why I even brought this up was the idea of a bunch of very talented people pouring themselves into the best possible version of a superhero slash comic book story almost feels kind of like a year and a half ago, two years ago thinking.

And now that we're in this world, where I don't know necessarily, when Deadpool comes out, when some of this other stuff comes out over the course of the year, we made me right back where we started, which is like phase whatever and did the James Gun D.C. verse upon us, and that's all we're thinking about.

And did you hear who's directing Supergirl and all this stuff? But I don't know. For me, I feel like there's been a little bit of a sea change. And so when I see all the effort and craft that went into this trailer, which is quite good as a trailer. Oh, yeah, so it's really well made. I'm like, man, can you imagine if they made a movie about human beings? That would have been sick.

And I think we've ended in the same place. Like, jokes aside, that's why I'm not that interested. Yeah. Also, you just have no idea what's going on because you haven't seen the first one. Also, Barry Keegan is my Joker. That's right. For me, the Batman is canon. Now, there's another story that is probably a little bit under the radar compared to Joker that came out today that I find fucking fascinating.

And I was really interested to get your take on this. As a working contemporary television writer. Thank you. I don't know. We haven't really talked about this in the last few weeks, but there have been one or two at least trend stories about just how hard it is out there right now. and the buying habits of studios, the timidity of like the development process and only going with short bets and stuff like that.

So it interested me a great deal this morning when it was announced that the night manager, the TV adaptation of John LaCarray's 1990s novel that came out, this adaptation came out in 2016. Which we did not remember. We had to Google. I mean, it's truly the most time is a flat circle fact that I've come across in a long time.

I would have said 2018 at the earliest. Yeah. Like, I've been having a lot of issues with the possible, like, end of LeBron's career and the aging of... You have issues with it? Because I have been present for the entire thing. And not just present, like, as an adult. Yeah, I am like, it makes me feel incredibly old to see LeBron as an older man talking about the end of his career when I'm like, I remember when you were on Sports

Illustrated as a high schooler. Yes. But both of you have a long time. term final goal of playing with your son or ward. And so when you finally get to do JMO for Spotify, with my, what's your teenage ward's name? Have we ever named him? No. Do you think he'll come with a name or will you rename him like a package patch doll? Like where it's it. There is a birthday, but you could also just call him Frank. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So Frank, your word. I feel the same way about, I wonder if Tom Hiddleston actually feels the same way about playing this role again in 20, I would assume, five, right?

Like when this finally comes out. Right. They have renewed, I guess, Night Manager. Right. A delightful, well-made, apparently very successful piece of espionage thriller TV making.

The original version was Tom Hiddleston, Hugh Lorry, and Elizabeth Tobicki. She was great in it. I remember that. It was very satisfying. Tom Hiddleston's shirts were great in it. Do you remember that?

He wore a lot of linens. He looked great. And it was Olivia Coleman's also in it. Man, wow. The novel, from what I remember, it's not one I've returned to, but is pretty complete, pretty definitive. The idea that they are, and when I say they, I mean Ink Factory, which is John LaCherry's sons, who are sort of in charge of the iterations of his novels.

And I think that's an incredibly exciting project. But it's interesting. They've renewed this for two more seasons. But with a new partner. With a new partner. And they are going to be moving beyond. the book. Like it is basically...

Say the partner. Who's the new partner? Amazon. Oh, Amazon. That's right. Not... So what was the first... It was a co-pro's BBC AMC.

Yeah. Oh, okay. And at the time, I do remember talking about it being like, okay, so this seems like, this seems to be... Even then we were talking about how it was surprising. We couldn't quite see the path for AMC to continue

at the big boys table when the big boys were now the gigantic boys like Amazon, Netflix, and Apple. And it seemed like a path might be linking with existing IP that might be otherwise unexplored. So that has borne out, Le Carre, now the Anne Rice novels. Yeah. But also co-productions, which they have continued to do to a lot of success. In terms of the specifics of it, eight years since this show that was well regarded but not, didn't, you know, change any paradigms.

I understand that it's a little surprising. In terms of the two things, what Amazon is doing with its prime video service, this makes a ton of sense. A. But B, to me, this is more in line with a news item earlier in the week about the well-regarded but little scene stars wrestling show heels going to Netflix. There seems to be... The libraries. I don't know if they're... The library.

So it was a two-season show that had many fans and I think probably momentum to continue. It wasn't like it didn't wrap up its story moving to Netflix. And with that move comes the obligatory tag that maybe there'll be more. in success. I think that one of the things that is absolutely evident from the last few years is just the baseline understanding

that a program might fulfill the mission goals for its streamer in the short term, but that is not the same as having a sustained audience and it's certainly not the ceiling on a project

if it's at the wrong place, whether that's Girl 5EVA on Peacock or suits reruns on Peacock or potentially other series or other places. When things move to Netflix, throughout the rulebook, right? And so I think Amazon is being kind of smart about this.

It is of a piece with some of its other more recent successes. Established beloved genres, established beloved writers, action genre pieces. This is not, I mean, it's been eight years, but I'm pretty sure that I don't remember the show being like Jack Ryan or Reacher. No, it's incredibly sexy. The locations were immaculate. Everybody looked great.

the intrigue was well done and it was just like it was a very good imagining of a Le Carre book with maybe not as much of the psychological depth of it or narrative depth. Well I think so the last piece

on the why is this happening now because I would like to hear your thoughts on like are you interested in this? Do you want more of this? Is this good for the La Carre fandom or not good? It's just to say that when this happened in 2016 it felt like

man, what a what an incredible buffet. I think that might have been around when Tinker Taylor came out too. Maybe that's a little bit earlier. It was earlier. Yeah. But like this, what a wonderful buffet contemporary actors have to choose from

in that Tom Hidlston is ascendant as he's being tipped as the next James Bond. He's, you know, a key figure in all of these Marvel movies. He's going to get to do a prestige project where he gets to wear a blousey shirts and that'll be fun. And then he'll go do something else. Hittleston is savvy, right? Like, he seems to have a pretty good understanding of his role in the marketplace. and if he has a role that he likes playing and can return to and get a good paycheck from and live a good life.

Well, I play Bondwood, you can make your own bond. Right. Also, I don't think anyone's talking about him being Bond anymore, but forget about that. And I don't even, it sounds like I'm dinging him, I'm not. I think he's great. He's great as Loki. He's good in this part. It's also good for an actor like that to keep working and to be, you know, number one on a call sheet somewhere. But what do you think about this?

So, I mean, the guys from Simon and Stephen Cornwall, who are Le Carrey's sons, talked about expanding the events beyond their father's original work. And they said, quote, that is a decision we have not taken lately, but his compelling characters and the vision David has for their next chapter,

David, meaning the person who's going to be working on the show, for their next chapter, we're irresistible. I think that's fine. Like, I made a joke to you earlier that, like,

when I'm looking at like the LaCarrayverse and it's a real me reaping, me-sewing kind of situation, because you decry IP until it's the IP you care about. And then you're like, perfect. Can't wait. You know, like if we're going to do Monsieur Spade and Ripley and Night Manager seasons two and three, then call me the IP king, you know?

But I think that there's almost a logic to them waiting this long, or this being this delay, because it really does almost decouple it from its literary source for me. It's like, oh, you guys have, like, thought about this delay. this. Somebody came up with a really interesting spin on it. And honestly, you know, I'm kind of excited to see someone play within the Le Carre brushstrokes or the lines or color within the LeCarray lines. There's nothing interconnected about this. So they're not going to like, they're not going to just change the smiley narrative continuum by like making more of this. And I think it's pretty, I think it's

pretty cool. There are a lot of nights to manage in a life. LeBron knows it. You know it. I would also say that It's funny that we do get precious about things that we love or that we hold in high esteem. And one thing that Brits seem to do well is not worry about that as much. Like if you have ever dabbled in Brit Box or Acorn TV, which I think are quite successful, I mean, you know, relatively, but they do very well with their audience in this country. Also, is if you have created a detective in England or Scandinavia or the UK within the last 50 years, there's probably 8.000. series of it to watch. And they do spin-off series

often. And that hasn't taken away any of the books that hasn't like, we can diminish the luster of the Wallander books or whatever. Like, there's just stuff to watch. And this is a very reliable genre

to program it. Speaking of stuff to watch, we have such a full plate of stuff to get to. And I don't want to short-changed shot Top Chef like we have been. So let's go through Shogun and Ripley. So we're going to talk about

the most recent episode of Shogun and then we'll talk about the third episode of Ripley, which is a crucial one, I think. Let's start with Shogun. Again, impeccable acting, so gripping, just absolutely like TV at about the highest level you can make it at. I'm not at all wavering in my support for this show. Oh, there's a buck coming. I will say that this was the first episode that I tripped over as a, am I missing something?

or is this execution to no pun intended of the plot not too cute because I think I used that phrase last week so I don't want to repeat myself like the idea that Toranaaga you've kind of alluded to this where it's like Torinaga has like

is playing like 12D chess but we have no insight into that until it turns out that he has been I felt myself sort of like feeling a little bit jobbed. Yeah, I agree with you. In the in the details, even if it's accurate to like how those, how these things would have been gone. Well, I'm the guy to tell you if it was accurate or not. Thank you. In the details, this is as excellent as everything that has come before it. In the aggregate,

this was easily the weakest episode, I think. It doesn't diminish the luster of the season thus far. It does not diminish my hopes for the last two. But I, I totally agree with you. I'm going to make an observation that will probably only, I don't know how many, the vendor, I don't know what the Venn diagram is of the people who watch this show and the show I'm going to reference. It's never stopped us before. That's a great point. I didn't know that Toranauga was the first wallfacer. I think

probably at least a dozen people know what you're talking about right now. I don't think that's supposed to be body problem either, but the degree to which my guy is a genius because no one knows what he's thinking at any time is tough.

And it's one of the ways that the adaptation is beginning to show a little wear and tear at the seams because I think the, again, imagined, I understand them to be the great pleasures of the very, very, very large novel, is you can be in the heads of characters, you can be around them, you could observe their behavior. Similarly, like the Blackthorn and Mariko relationship has been stutter stepping for a while now and stalling a little bit, because there's just not enough, it reached a certain point and there's not a lot of real estate left to go deeper or further. We're just sort of now operating on the surface of things, which is,

sort of anathetical to what she teaches him about human nature. So anyway, all of that to say, like, the Tornaga's plot is pretty wild. Yeah. Pretty wild. Like, I would say this as someone who has never been a boy warlord or commanded an army, but who has been to Edo as recently as last year, I will say to your face, like, I would never watch you ritualistically end your own life to prove a point. Okay.

I would never do it. I've seen you go out on a limb with some takes that I disagreed with. So if I was just like True Detective Season 1 is the pinnacle of television. And you were like, no. And I was like, yes. Tears would be in my eyes. Yeah. And then you asked, I guess in this construct, you would then.

You would actually agree with me. You would have to agree with me. I would have to agree with you, but then I would also turn grudgingly to your word, Frank, to second you. Yeah. And thus, and. And yeah, so that... I have an example of why I think I'm bumping up against this. And there was a great interview with Takuma Nishioka who plays Hiramatsu.

Who honestly, Hall of Fame face. This guy's awesome. The acting on this show is almost uniformly phenomenal. And I don't want to interrupt you. And I include Cosmo in that. It is. I also, but I want to say there was also a great interview in Hollywood Reporter this week with Tadano Bu Asano who plays Yabashige.

And one thing that I don't think we can appreciate is that these guys are operating within a very, very well-established and familiar tradition within Japan and Japanese cinema of performing in samurai stories, right? And so they are referencing things that maybe we have some glimpses of from movies that we've seen old movies, but they're existing within a continuum that we aren't even aware of and they are excelling and communicating it to us with every gesture and every time they're on screen. that I'm referring to. Nishiyoka refers to conversations that he had with Hirouki Sonata about about like absolutely nailing this sort of tribute to the, at the best of their ability, the accuracy

that they were trying to represent on screen. There's a quote from this interview that I thought was fascinating though, because it speaks to whether or not the extent to which you want things spelled out for you when you were watching something. I think as a television watcher, I've probably become a little bit more exposition-pilled. Like, if I don't hear it sometimes or see it specifically, I'm like, well, that was a flaw. I, for some reason, sometimes I think I have a more of allergic reaction to ambiguity, even though it's something that I really treasure in storytelling generally. But Roxanna Hadati did the interview with this actor, and he's talking about the scene where he commits Sepaku,

and he says it was quite complicated because there are so many layers to what we're playing there. The premise is that we think maybe one of Ishido's spies is there and so we have to put on this play, don't we, to convince? That's an incredible detail.

And it might be simply acting motivation. I don't know. They talk about the revisions that that scene and that sequence went through. But that's not explicitly stated. Yes, we are aware that there are spies in the empires and that there are, you know, Tornaaga has his spies and he has his samurai who's pretending to be a servant and is in his service. But we don't really have an explicit statement that they're so paranoid about espionage. Yes.

Taken happening that they would go to such extreme lengths to prove Toranauga's weakness when he's just going to turn around and now attack Osaka, presumably. Do you think that if there is, if Ischito did have a spy, it's Rob McElagney, right? Did you see that online? Yes, I did see this. That one guy looks just like him. Did you see McElagney? He was like, wait a second.

Yes. Yeah, I have some questions. Yeah, I think that was, let me just take a step back. I just find this so fascinating because I think that what Justin Marks and Rachel Kondo have done is so absolutely astonishing, honestly,

in terms of distilling a massive story into 10 episodes, into communicating entire swaths of history and culture into a shorthand that we are familiar with, even just the subtle way we've talked about this week-to-week, characters are introduced or established so that we understand. I mean, if we were to re-watch, I think, the episode that introduces Omi when they get to Izu. I would be so interested in the way that even those scenes are edited to linger long enough or to cut to the actor. He's always side-eyeing something.

But so that by the time we're really checking for him, we need. know we have a comfort with that i mean i think that's so remarkable that said they have and they and they have taken a bet time and time again that i want them to take and i want storytellers to take which is we trust you trust the audience you're paying attention here yeah and we're counting on that there's occasionally there might be missteps on that because they are so in scones in the material they don't know how some things are being communicated so this episode i think was rife with a number of instances where there was a lot of show that didn't fully tell. There are references to spies.

I mean, when Toranauga is speaking with the Catholic priest, he's like, my spies already know that. We already have established history that he has like a hidden samurai in Isu. There's the pigeons. They are all watching each other. They all seem to be aware of what's going on. But the degree of performance on top of performance and who the performance is for, I got a little bit lost in the sake this time.

just because there's so many scenes of people sitting, saying things in front of each other, that is performance. And again, look, the show did that. There was a play three episodes. So they're constructing something lovely and considered, but this one, I got a little lost in. I think I got a little bit caught up to in the static nature

of maybe this is the culmination of several episodes of them kind of being exiled, waiting, planning, going to do Crimson Sky no we're not my son fucked this up but I kind of my son dying was the best thing

that could have happened because now I have a cover under which to do my new plan but it's all been basically like what you're saying it's like people sitting waiting for something to happen

whereas I think that the first half of the season was marked by a really beautiful sense of it wasn't like manic it was like a very steady procession of like there was people moving from place to place. There was stuff happening.

Well, I also think that it bottles up a bit because Hiroyuki Sonata is playing the hell out of a part that is so, so, so challenging because he's omniscient and inscrutable. So he knows everything. He's 10 steps ahead of everyone else. And he talks honestly to no one. So when the non-Toranaga characters were being introduced and developing, the crisis wasn't at the point that it is now. So there was room for them to operate,

make decisions, have autonomy that wasn't completely dependent on the seemingly suicidal actions of their lord. Like Yabashige was making his own decisions and being kind of a snake, but the noose has tightened to the point where everything is now choked up and dependent on this one guy.

I still, I mean, are we to believe that he was going to surrender until his son did this foolish thing that actually bought him time? And do you think, this is a quick follow-up, and then I'll let you answer.

answer. Do you think that Torinaga believes this is the Sixers year? I like how I'm being treated as Frank Vogel. Here's what? Because he got 49 days injured on the bench right before the playoffs. I know, right. You get it? Yeah, I do. He tore his meniscus elected not to have surgery. And waited. Came back one six in a row. But he's coming back for the finals, which is Crimson

Sky. I don't know the novel. I don't know how the novel treats these events, there's a lot of like, boy, everything fell right in a place. Like Blackthorns, boys weren't like, you're back. Let's get the fuck out of here. You know, like,

there's a bunch of things that had to happen for Torinaga to be like, I know that Blackthorns already, like, approached Jabashige. He rejected him, but seemed interested. And now that I've gone to such extremes

to show what a coward I am, these guys are going to have no choice but to team up and I guess launch an independent attack on Osaka. That I will then take advantage of. This is when Dr. Strange thinks about what's going to happen in the movie that hasn't been made yet. And it's like, there's one way.

Yeah, right. Exactly. And it all happens. That being said, there's several scenes in here. I mean, even the scene we're referring, the sepicoose scene that we're referring to, I will never forget that scene, you know. And the level of performance, the stillness, the concentration that those performers must have had to have had to, like, stay in that moment is astonishing. Counterpoint.

Did it make you think of the, I think you should leave scene when Tim Robinson is trying to pull open the door that's push? Am I the only one that thought? You are the only one that. I'm just asking. I also thought that the scene between Mariko and Bontaro where he makes her tea and is like,

let's get greet death as husband and wife. Yeah, let's talk about that. I believe that is what I say to my wife every night when we turn on Law & Order SVU. Do you make her, Do you make her a little like... A little maca. A little bigelow, sleepy time tea?

Like, are you ready to greet? So Olivia Benson will find a body in a dumpster now. Okay, so I think it's okay in the spirit of good fun, which is really the spirit with which we approach everything, to just question what we're being told. Because the show, and I believe it, like he has behaved poorly towards Mariko in the past, the past episodes.

But it's tough to find. a guy who can single-handedly defeat 64 samurai and also brew a nice cup of tea. I mean, battle to barista? Get you a man who can do both. Yeah, I did not expect us to become Buntaro rights activists. Oh, you're... I know about your other podcast. It does leave me to a little bit of my other question about this episode, which I am very open to the idea that I just may have missed something or I'm not completely up on it. But the connection between

Mariko and Oshiba has not been, whatever they're kind of falling out and the Toranauga part of that has not been shown, right? Do you know why Oshiba hates Toranauga? I'm still unclear. Okay. I mean, I would appreciate it,

if someone who has watched only the show and has a keen understanding. But it continues to be Because he isn't like, when they're like, what you have to do is ally with Yes. Shiba. He's not like, well, she fucking hates me. So good luck with that.

He's like, why would she do that? Yeah. It's a little bit more vague than that. And the idea of like, Mariko, are you ready to do your thing now? And she's like, I am ready. I like, do what? Yes. I mean, two episodes ago ended in a similar way where he's just like, actually,

you are the blade that will seek vengeance. And she's like, cool. She was, she was wrong. on Buntaro. Shino Sukayabe is a great actor. He's really good, but I'm saying, like, he has had, he's had a terrible day.

He's had a rough year. He's not a rough year. I mean, I think he's also an abusive asshole. Yes, let's be clear. Yeah. Be clear. Be clear. Be clear.

We are pro-Buntaro. No. However. It's a dangerous, however. He literally is like, but I was nice to you 10 minutes ago. I had a, I just had a very intense,

like, Chas Tenenbaum voice. It's been a rough year, dad. Except his dad's head is rolling across the parquet floor because he just chopped it off. You know? That is some tough parenting. He's like, not only do I not grant you in eternal sleep,

you must continue to live until like tomorrow, theoretically. But also you must... And it's like, you will know what it is to be denied. I'm like, he knows. Yeah, I'm like, have you seen my guy's last... 20 years. It's rough, rough, rough stuff. Okay.

What else from this episode jumped out at you? I loved the scene. I loved everything about the scene when Lady Gin is... When Blackthorn punches that guy in the face 15 times. We're coming to that. When she's standing like barefoot in the mud of the undeveloped corner of soon... One day not so far away, what would be Tokyo and is like, this is perfect. The church and brothel neighborhood?

And then cuts to Martin, yeah. Martine. And he sees back, just the way it shot, the way the horizon looks. And then just that there's a humor there. Yeah. That there's a sly wit to it. I love that scene. I do think it's worth asking.

Like, first of all, I was very impressed by Blackthorne's abilities in the market. You know, I just think that he's really handling himself well. Can I get a little bit of John Blackthorn goes to the Outwater Village Farmers Market? Apusa, you say. Interesting. I wasn't ready. Sourdough bread. No preservatives.

I have not been here to the outwater village. Quite some time. Is this gluten-free? What is that? Plant-based. An abomination, but... Hmm. Texture is interesting, chewy.

Sunflower seeds. I'll take it. Six of these, please. And a kombucha starter. The finest, foulest mother I've had. had since my birth mother. Do you get his knife sharpened? Chris has left

the studio. Oh, God. What do you like to get the farmer's market, buddy? I go and I get blue corn tortillas. Yellow corn chips. What? So you like a soft blue.

Then there is a vegetable market stand that does incredible imaginative sauces and dips. So I have a like a spicy spinach and arches one that they did. And then I really don't buy any produce or vegetables. You save it for the rest of us. Is that the guy?

Can you imagine? I'm just like the guy at the farmer's boiling. These are some good chips. What do you guys like at the farmer's market? The corn chips or the bread? I like both. I like to make a corn chip sandwich with the bread. And then I take a bunch of butter knives to get sharpened.

Spread butter on my bread. It's like Al Michaels is just like I've never eaten a vegetable. I'm sure. That's him at the farmer's. market. But are you talking about there's a guy who has like 74 dips and spreads and he's just handing out little chips. No, it's not, that's not happening. You have to just eyeball it and be like that sounds like something I'd be interested in. Oh, is this a post-COVID thing? He doesn't do that anymore. No, you're thinking of a different guy. You know the guy's talking about you. Yeah, you're thinking of,

that's more of a Mediterranean thing. It is. This is more of a Mexican thing. Oh, okay. Well, do you think, he's getting all mad at you. You're fucking thinking of a different guy. Stop. Put down the cauliflower. And look at what I'm doing. Maybe you were like, like, Lesb conserved like tapping melons. You'd know. There's different dip stations there. $20 for these berries. Are you mad?

You know, he is... I mean, I guess we're learning a couple of things. It's been clear that he's not like a master tactician. He's just very, very, very, very self-confident. Black tea? Yeah. Yeah. He has been talking about getting his... Getting the fellows back together.

Yeah. It never occurs to him. while now. It's been a year? It's been like, it's been a number of months. I think it's been six months. Well, he isn't, he's an aptitude for it. You know, he's like John Sugar. Another show that I have no idea if anyone's watching, but he also learned, you know, his little languages. But I think the other thing that is missing is that in the early

scenes, and I've not rewatched, but in the early scenes of Shogun, they don't appear to be good friends. Do you know what I mean? No. It's also like, I don't know when he elected himself as leader. Like, he kind of had Mike Johnson's that. Like, the captain, yes. Commitzaal SEPku himself. Yes.

And then Blackthorne's like, here's what we will do. You know, like, and so I don't know if that guy who he meets in the back alleys, who seems to be like, what, is he like, I'm just happier here in Japan? Or is he like, I'm beefing with you because I think we could have just turned around.

Let's leave. Yeah, you made us come here, basically. And then our homie got boiled. But, I think he's, that happened a long time ago. Stuff happens. Did you get big walking by the youth hostel in Europe in the 90s and the Australians are there energy from that scene? All right, mate.

You know what I mean? No ways. Like, I remember staying in a hostel somewhere. I don't remember where I was in like 1997 and there was like a strict like stay in this hostel, but you have to like go to bed at 10 and then whatever. Yeah. And the Australians were like, they were just real chill with being like, and you want to get, just wedge your backpack right between your.

thighs. Yes, to sleep very, very, very, very tautly. Yeah. But they would just help themselves to entering and exiting through the window.

Yeah. Just to get back out into the streets, you know. Streets of Prague. Yeah, I didn't, I struggled with that scene a little bit. Like, he kind of was just like... We're sounding critical of this show.

No, no. I love the show. But the Blackthorn thing where it's just like, I appreciated the scene where he's just like, I guess I am kind of Japanese now because I'd like to take baths.

That's first and foremost what I enjoy. there was some real like, you know, you're running into your old college pal's energy when he turns around and starts walking the other direction. Yeah, all right. Anything else? Again, we are being... Do you expect a whiz-bang last two episodes?

I have no reason not to. I think that what I continue to be impressed by is the... It seems like whether it's just Justin Marks and Rachel Condo's natural abilities or the extra time they had to develop it. They seem to have a very, very keen understanding and control over what they're making. This show is very well conducted. And so I think that the ending we get

will be appropriate for the amount of show we got. Hidden in that is my other criticism, which is there's only two left. It's starting to feel like the Tornaga that we're seeing is the only Tornaga we're going to get, where it's like there actually clearly is more there. As opposed to like a much more chill Toranauga. No, no, no.

By the way, Toranauga this episode was me from November until mid-March, just walking around coughing and still showing up to meetings? I did have one more what's up with that question. Okay. Forgive me if I pronounce this wrong, but Dian, the old lady, the Tycho's wife. Oh, right, okay. And then she has a stroke. She does.

And Oshiba comes to her. They had her special mackerel that day, too. And they give her, she gives her something for the pain. Milk of the poppy? Yeah. Well, okay. My question was, did she say something in her, like, sort of last words to Oshiba that made Oshiba decide to marry Ishito?

Or are you, did you watch that? She's like he's in nothing. Yeah. Did you watch that and think, Oshiba is doing this to play Ishito? I can't pretend to have any thought. Okay. The Oceba plot is almost totally opaque to me. Okay.

Again, it's not like it's a wash. Like, I think the Ishido is understandable. And the, you know, again, like the show recite certain things that are important. So this idea that he is... And I thought that part where he's like, let's not pretend like the Tyco was like a kind person. It's a good scene. Beautiful scene. Great scene.

Yeah. And I think that, you know, when we get the chance to talk to Justin and Rachel, like I am really curious too just about circling back to that idea of like these actors working within a tradition that many Western audiences or even feel likeers might not know. I mean, think about even like what we're watching with Sepaku. I mean,

like to those people, that is like a very natural and dignified way to end your life. Right. And using it almost as a piece of political leverage in that scene, you know, and to try and do something

that can scrape back power from this very powerful man in Toranaga. I thought that was like, mind-blowing, but like I can understand Western audiences being like, just don't do that? Right.

Do you maybe argue with him a little bit more? Yeah, our Congress works great. Yeah, right. No, but I, yes, but I guess it's a two-point thing. What I was going to say was just that directing actors whose intention you understand and emotion you understand, but whose actual language and word, you know, emphasis on words you might not be understanding, who is on set to help with that or if it's just is, is a good performance, like the one in, like the two in that scene, is that.

That's just a universal language and you get it and you call cut. Right. It's interesting. The playoffs are here and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch.

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Say it with me. The Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er. learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms apply. Ripley episode three. Yeah, so let's talk before we get into this.

Let's just for the people, the more casual viewers. Do we just, do you want to have a plan here? Like, I want to talk about Ripley 3 with you. We want to keep watching a couple episodes through next week, maybe even finish it by the end of next week. But we also have Fallout and Sympathizer coming. Sympathes is on Sunday.

Where's your head out with Fallout? I mean, I so in my bones feel like I probably won't like it, but I think I ought to give it a shot. So why don't we do Ripley episode three today? This is just, you guys get to see it. You guess you have to see what we do. Yeah. Ripley episode three today. Fall Out and sympathizer from Monday.

Okay. And then we'll revisit Ripley and Shogun on Thursday. Great. Okay. I just want to say. Okay. I can't tell what's up with me. I thought this was one of the best episodes of television I've ever seen.

I know. Look at you. This is unbelievable. This is exciting. You know what this reminds? I've only ever seen you like this one time. And that was when you came over to my apartment in Brooklyn and I played you the advanced CD I had of my chemical romance is the Black Perrin. I actually was not that.

I was much more of a three cheers for sweet revenge guy. Yeah, but you know, you remember. I think it was like, I felt the moment. You've done that to me a couple of times. You had Girls Can Tell. You had the advanced cassette of Girls Can Tell by Spoon. And I was like, this is, I've just opened up the arc of the covenant. Both times I stared at you like Toronaga.

It's just like, don't make me do it. Somerso is the name of the episode. It's the third one. So, spoilers for this third episode. I think people who are familiar with the Ripley story from the talented Mr. Ripley film, it will come as no surprise that this is the end of the road for Dickie Greenleaf.

But the execution, again, no pun intended, of this episode where you have the creeping dread of Ripley's not turn because I think that Ripley's always this but as he gets this letter in a great scene where they cut to Kenneth Lanergan reading his side of a letter to Ripley

guys there's filmmaking and then there is style yeah yes it's so beautifully done and it's not just the choice right to have Lonergan read it or to be dictating it to screen it's the cut back to his face It's the insert shot of the word failure in the letter. It's Ripley saying failure out loud.

And then the return cut to Lonergan, Mr. Greenleaf, is just implacable. Yeah. It's a sledgehammer of aesthetic beauty and choice making. Every part of this episode is. And it's also, I think, a very declaration of intent by Zalian, by Elswit, by the creative team. Because I feel like it somewhat leaves. are maybe shared memory of Ripley's past and how it's kind of done sometimes.

This is pure film war, and then it goes beyond film noir to almost, I mean, cue me Googling Greek and Roman myths that feature rocks, you know, at the end, because the second half of this episode, again, like the first half of the first episode, largely silent.

Brother, your ads on Instagram now are just going to be for bespoke rocks, Italian rocks. You've screwed your algorithm. Have I left the pier entirely? What do you think? No, because I think that what Zalian is showing us. And I, you know, last, what was it last week?

It was Monday we were talking about Ripley the first time. And I was like, it's just an, it's like an American hamlet to play this part or could be. It's so, it speaks to something so familiar but appalling and terrifying and unsettling and kind of primal. And it speaks to filmmakers, too, for the opportunity to. to play in the sandbox and play with characters like this that have stood the test of time. I think that when we watch this episode, all of the extra pieces, the illusions,

the cutaways to like the angels and devils and Caravaggio and the architecture and the old world and then Ripley being this kind of, actually both Ripley and Dickie Greenleaf being ugly Americans in very, very different ways. This is a load-bearing project. You can throw all that on. And then at the end of it be like, holy shit, that was a riveting hour of thrilling television.

Just the boat scene alone, the final conversation between Dickie and Tom and, you know, John Flynn, like, you know, we only got a couple of episodes with him. But I thought it was an extraordinary performance. Like, I will be, like, checking for him going forward. There was a lot of, I really appreciated it when rewatching, but particularly in this episode, there's just a lot of still. the scene on the train when he's watching him. Yeah. I mean, the boat scene,

I think, looked at least to me, like they shot it on a tank somewhere in a studio. And I thought that they almost did it, you know, there's an extent to which I want to see, like,

the color version of this to see what it would have looked like if they had shot it that way. And whether some of it might have seemed too new, because in black and white for some reason, everything looks just, everything looks appropriately, like, aged.

But the, almost fakeness of clearly they're shooting this on a tank, you know, where the boat is completely still in the water. And then the entire sequence of the boat going around in circles is something you can really only do, I would imagine, in a controlled environment on a set somewhere. It was similar to just the casual way with which they have a shot of the boat leaving the harbor underwater. Yeah. I mean, I'm not like, I know there are underwater cameras and have been for a while, but just like, just the casual flex of, yeah, what do you think that's going to look like? We'll show you.

Yeah, I'm still sort of sorting through the imagery and symbolism of him being unable to destroy the evidence and maybe him being unable to shed this particular skin, which obviously is what this story is about. So much of, you know, again, if you're using a sort of established, not sacred text, not profane text either, but one that has stood the test of time, you know, you can play with texture. And so much of the show to me is texture and the boat, just the physical boat and the rope and the sense that the show communicates to us, again, nonverbalely, that this is almost indestructible. It's made of wood, but it's just old. It's been through stuff. And so what Tom is doing feels novel to him. He's pushed his own depravity further, but that the world, especially like Europe, has seen some of this before and has. withstood it. And there have been rocks and there have been

boats and there have been sisyphuses. Skeptical looks. Yes, exactly. Time and time again. And I want to shout out another time, like the thing that I think is so so, so exceptional and probably unheralded about the show when we're looking at the performances in Elswit cinematography is the Foley work. And I keep using that term for people who don't know what that is.

Foley is the piece of filmmaking when sound effects are brightened, sweetened, changed, amplified in post-production. Steps, you know, drawers opening, stuff like that. One of the most famous ones and the ones that I thought was a thrill when I got to be a part of it is like every time, you know, when you're watching a movie or a TV show, anytime someone inhales on a cigarette, it sounds like God himself has lit up a parliament. Like, that's all sweetened, as they say later. It's not just in the movies, brother. That's in your, okay, in the movies and Chris's life, 1999 through 2007. But the sound of the boat, just like the sound of the drawers in the previous episodes.

It rocking in the water as he's sitting there taking all of this guy's blonde. And it's the sound of the nightmares he'd been having, and it's the sound of the bottomless ocean and the plunge, and you just feel it physically, you know, and that is such an essential piece of this approaching through three episodes masterpiece that's Alien is made. It's putting these blocks together in a way where when's the last time we saw something on TV? Because we see this in movies a lot. When's the last time you saw something that you could not, it's not just nitpicking. I don't understand. It's a jenga tower. I was honestly thinking of the thing that I would think we could change or that I would say The episode of Breaking Bad the fly. That's the last one that you felt was constructed in a way.

I haven't thought about the question in that way but like it was a similar kind of like half of a really good episode of television and then half of like this is pure cinema. Like just watching this guy silently try to dispose of a body

and then try to escape an Italian town and just the entire scene of him getting back to the hotel looking out the window and then the maid coming in and then him rushing out and the guy almost not giving him back the passport and the cop not looking at him when he's like... Oh, I want to come back to the hotel guy.

But like, what about... Also, all the stuff with like, like, clearly like the latent homophobia in so many scenes, whether it's Dickies or the, I think the hotelier. Yes, looking at them. Yeah. Yeah, the scene on the jetty,

I mean, I screenshot that and I asked you, like the butterfly meme, Like, is this art? Yeah. Like, it's, it's so beautiful that it kind of reminds me. It's like when the, you know, the jaded critic in your favorite animated rap movie, Ratatouille, like, eats the food. And it's just like, it's just delicious. Yeah.

I don't know how you could be. I mean, there's different versions of cynicism. But I feel like there's a natural impulse, even in people who are like cinemophiles, like the people who are retweeting shots from the Joker 2 trailer are like, yes, but look. Yeah, but it's Italy, you know, or it's a compil. or it's a composed shot with water. Like, of course it's beautiful, but like, sorry, sometimes things are just gorgeous. Yeah. It just, it just, and the tension.

Like the, I don't remember the, the, the Mangella movie murder scene. I don't remember how much of this is similar. It didn't feel similar to me. Do you remember? I don't. I'm going to go back and watch it when we were done the show. And I'll be curious to do a compare and contrast then. I also find myself, despite this being on Netflix,

despite there being danger in sort of Googling Ripley Netflix because, you know, I don't have any, don't spoil Ripley for me, kind of worries or anything like that. It's more just like, I am savoring this so much because I'm just like, I just want to take these one at a time and really think about what I just saw. Yeah, there's no version of this where I want to watch a second one right away.

Yeah. it's a delicious meal. And also the way that he's, you know, I've, I often on this podcast talk about how I can't really hang with horror movies, but it's not. I was wondering if it was going to, yeah. But it's not horror, you know, it's the excruciating kind of discomfort of an anxiety of anticipation.

So the hardest scene for me to watch was when he's in Dickie's painting studio and he's reaching for his jacket. But the way that Zalien is doling these things, Oh my God, that's such a great little moment. You know what I mean, though? Like that shake the envelope loose, yeah. That's the moment where, and that's what reminds me of what I am, I have a hard time with in movies, but it's just being, it's being portioned out so appropriately.

Did you feel, for you, I would imagine the most horrific scene was when they buy all those vegetables at the market and put them in the refrigerator. Much like Tom Ripley. I'm like, refrigerators tie you down, man. You know, it doesn't eat refrigeration chips. You know it's shelf stable? Yeah. C.R. is lunch.

Okay. So, I, you know, not to rush us. Ripley, thank you to television. Thank you. Yeah. Let's do a little top chef because it's been a minute. Yeah, I think we have to. So last night, and I feel really bad because Kaya hasn't seen last nights, but go on, guys.

A double elimination episode long challenge with immunity from a previous, the previous episodes Elimination, correct? That's correct. And we're also going to talk a little bit about Last Chance Kitchen

but going forward spoilers for last night's Top Chef. I kind of want to talk about this. We always do this where we bifurcate our Top Chef conversations. There's Top Chef as TV

and then there's Top Chef as the competition. Okay. Which would you like to talk about first? I think they're almost inextricable now because there's a problem. Oh.

I mean, I think Wisconsin, we have a problem? There's a problem so far the season that I think is about the disconnect between those two properties. Okay. Now, I'm not to, we didn't pregame about this. We didn't, so I'd love to hear this. And I think that there is, first of all, there is a lot to like.

I mean, and maybe this is more to begin with about the show. I think Kristen Kish is doing a phenomenal job. I think she's, I think there was a little bit of shakiness that she admitted to in the first episode or two, but now she's just, even just a few days into the filming. I think it's important to note that, like, when she dismisses, the two chefs from last night, her voice breaks. And so I'm imagining that this is like, she's like, this is intense.

You know, like, Padma makes it look like, and Padma would tear up too sometimes when she would by the end of the season. But like early season, Padma, early on in seasons, she would fucking just be like, you're out. Right. Well, Kristen is like, I have been eliminated from the show

and I understand what it feels like. I also felt like the reason you have Kristen, I mean, even beyond her charisma, her talent, her charm, is the moment at the end of this episode, where as a former winner, she came back and read them the Riot Act essentially and gave them what is absolutely, unequivocally,

the best advice that a Top Chef contestant can have, which is trust your instinct towards what moves you and then bend the challenge to what that is. And that's all important. I also think that the show, the producers, magical elves, the long-running team behind it, have continued to push themselves

to elevate the ideas and the challenges in ways that feel appropriate for the settings and make for potentially good theater. The problem, as I see it, is that they were on such a heater from the past three seasons culminating in the World All-Star season, that their ambitions and their dreams

and their visions for the potential of this show have now dangerously outstripped the ability of the contestants. And that made for... I think there also might be some... I wonder whether there's some... of the cooking a little bit. I don't, I don't know.

I mean, even, Savannah's a really interesting chef to me because not only do, I think, she gives a really good quote when she's doing her one-on-ones. And she's one of the few people who, I can remember in the last couple of years, who has a little bit of a chip on her shoulder and a little bit of an edge to her when she's talking about stuff. Now, she was relatively successful in this challenge.

I thought last night's episode was the best episode of the season, partially because it was more in the field, not literally a field, but it was in the field Wisconsin stuff. So we got a road trip. We got these folks experiencing something. I had no idea that Frank Lloyd Wright had such a huge architectural footprint in Wisconsin.

And I thought the setting for the final, for that meal was dynamite. And I kind of tripped up a little bit on duality as a challenge. But I did like the idea of taking inspiration. from architecture. And I think it led to something that this show sometimes desperately needs,

which is a clubhouse leader. And Rosicaa is obviously the fucking best thing on this show right now and has won two out of three challenges, right?

Two out of three eliminations? I think. She has won, well... Or maybe a quick fire and a... Maybe she's won like a quick fire

and two eliminations or something like that, but it... She has won an elimination, a quick fire, and an elimination. Yeah, that's pretty impressive. Yeah, after so few episodes.

And everything she cooks, I'm like on the edge of my seat to be like, what's she going to make? She is everything that the show wants to celebrate and everything that we want to celebrate on the show. It's French laundry level technique with South Indian flavors. A specific biographical slant. And giving some, you know, it is always the best. I imagine for the judges, but also for the viewers to be like, I'm so fascinated by what these flavors are doing, what she's bringing, what they must taste like, how she's applying it to these,

to different canvases, episode to episode. She's on tier one. Michelle is another contestant and human being that we love to celebrate on the show. Her story being like, I've been a barbecue pit master for six years, but I just made fresh pasta. And I intuitively can do,

other than this week when she had immunity, which probably helped, she can do the things that Kristen was saying that they should do. That's amazing. Everyone else is so deeply mediocre, so, so deeply mediocre and incapable of thinking creatively in response to the challenges or executing on very basic things. And we were on, we were so spoiled for a bunch of years.

I was pretty shocked by like, if there had been, I would not have been surprised if five or six people had been sent home yesterday. It was. And I don't need the food. You rarely see. And they responded to it by doing. the final judging table in the way they've never done before. But you rarely

see things just be that bad. And to see only one of the teams even successfully comprehend the challenge, let alone deliver on it, was disappointing. Yeah. And I do wonder if there's a disconnect now, because they got lucky.

Like a sports league that gets three unicorns in on the same season. Buddha is everything that the show wants, needs, and they were treating him like he was a god. because he kind of is. He kind of broke the game. And maybe Rosca,

maybe Danny has some of the creativity. But even in the judge's table, they were like, Danny did everything correctly, but it didn't taste. It didn't have a soul, exactly. So I feel like the show's in kind of a strange place. Yeah,

I think that much like Survivor seasons, like this is where it will pick up as you sort of develop character. And then I think it's worth mentioning the last chance kitchen part. So they've, this is a season, and we said this at the beginning. Because I know you had some Last Chance Kitchen. But like this is a season where they think they've iterated in a bunch of ways,

and they've tried to because it's a new host, so it's time to do that. And the big one is, is this your question? My question is Sue a plant? Sue seems like a Terminator. Like Sue is the second most interesting chef on this show right now. So for people who haven't watched, you should be watching Last Chance Kitchen. And the twist this year was they didn't wait until the third episode when there were two eliminated chefs to start it off. There's a chef waiting in Last Chance Kitchen.

There's a 16th chef. There's a 16th chef. And it's this guy Sue on who is a fine dining assassin from Chicago. Yeah. Who used to be a pro golfer and now is doing this. Yeah. Like did they seek out this guy to create like a, what's the sports term? Hail Mary or like a Cinderella story.

A Cinderella story. I think they thought it was a Cinderella story, and it turns out Yukon is sitting in Last Chance Kitchen. No, no, I disagree. They did this on purpose. I think that they looked at this. He was in my senses that they were like. Yeah, that's what I think. I think they found this guy on purpose, too.

He was in the running to be like, should he be on the show? And they were like, this guy is a T-1000. What if we do something different? What if he loses in the first one to Valentin or something? He's 100% not going to because they know how good these chefs are. They know, you know. And they also know that some people, like the guy was just like, I make trash pizza, like isn't going to win the show, but they put him on the show anyway.

And so it's... Would you be going to have that guy's biodegradable pizza when you go back to the bay, Kaya? I was watching with Nick, and he was like, he makes... What? It's really... But he also doesn't like pizza or pasta.

No, I mean, what's weird is, I don't know if they wanted us to have this response. What I mean is, I thought they would... My guess is, when they were planning this out, they were like... We have a group that's not as talented or the tiers are very clear within them, but we have a lot of lovely people and personalities who will do their best, and our audience will root for them to overcome this remarkably surprising new challenge

that's waiting for them in Last Chance Kitchen. What I like about Last Chance Kitchen is I want Sue to destroy them. He's going to. He's going to. Now, I don't mean that Valentine and Kenny seem like really cool, nice guys. I don't wish them ill at all. I bet their restaurants are good. who are the two ladies who were in the last night?

I forgot. I have different feelings about them as contestants on the show. It was Kalina and Alicia. Yeah. Who did not work well together. Who made terrible food and then kept, I mean, Alicia, too, being like, I'm going to make the same thing again. Yeah.

But I did feel bad for Alicia because I don't think Kalina helped her situation. I mean, it sounds like Alicia made a bad Agua Chile, but it sounds like Kalina made a terrible meal. And was a bad collaborator. But then what she made in Last Chance's Kitchen looked good and reasonable and smart. But yeah, like I want Sue to... No chips, though.

You would have brought your own. B-Y-O-C. What if I was like, if Colicchio just had like a bag of tortilla chips, can I dip it? That's what he was like with a strawberry. I think B-Y-O-C-R is your new... That's your new identity. I will be more...

This is just a weird season. I will be more interested in this show after the sixth episode when it's Sue and Rosica going up against each other. It better be. I don't know. I wonder how long they're going to make us wait. Did you feel at the end of this week's episode?

Like it was obvious to us. It was obvious to them who's going home. But I was also like, like what you just said, I was like, send them all. Like I didn't hear. There were no stories I was invested in it. I think Michelle's team was in danger if they hadn't had a limit of unity.

Her food was bad. And I think that the French guy, Kenny and, Kenny and they were just like. Kevin. Kevin and Mani. Black and white. They're having a fun time, but their food looks like shit.

Like, it's bad. And it's clearly bad. Charlie, who again seems like an awesome, like A plus hang, but is like egg dish where you just slop some egg water on top of rice? He's like, fuck,

the foamer doesn't work anymore. So it's just pour yoke in here. Buddha being like, I don't love that. I don't love an eggshell on my food. The reason I'm sounding snobby and negative is just because that, stuff is hell's kitchen. You know what I mean? Like being like, wow, another screw up. Yeah. Can't wait to see them tear into it. That's just not what they've do or what they've been

doing. And I think maybe they got a little cocky about the talent pool and what they were capable of after these last few seasons. My homogenization point, which I abandoned was really more just like, I think even as somebody who goes to restaurants, you can often feel like this, regardless of the cuisine, that the presentation, the menu assembly, like, just like the things that are on offer feel very similar from place to place. Totally. And I wonder whether there is a kind of like new restaurant cooking hegemony that's kind of just become really calcified.

Because all food is Instagram food. Whatever it is. Yeah. I mean, like I have a lot of guesses. But like. Well, I think that's a great observation. I'll be curious about it. I think that we also saw last night between the episode itself.

Like the food that that, sorry, what was her name again? In Last Chance's Kitchen, the one who. Kalina? The food of Kalina made. in LCK, to me, was way more interesting than anything she's made on the show yet. I was going to say there are three types, the three Top Chef Elimination Challenge winners you meet in heaven were all represented across the two companion episodes last night. But two of them were in Last Chance's Kitchen. So with Sue, you have the radical outside the box creative thinking

where he makes a strawberry sauce for cooked fish and it's great. It's spicy somehow. Yeah, it's not sweet at all. I would have. I never had a strawberry. You just watch them molding in other people's refrigerator. Couldn't be me. Jokes on you, crunch, crunch, crunch. Your word, Frank, is suffering from terrible scurvy. Never had an orange in his life. The second type of chef is what Kalina did in Last Chance Kitchen,

which is just like, I'm going to execute traditional and recognizable fine dining, you know, where it's like I'm going to take a piece of beef. I'm just going to cook it very well. And I'm going to say words like kombu and ferment and the mashabley and cauliflower or a parsnip instead of potato. She kept on mid-rare. What's up of that? You don't like that?

I like it. You think it should be med-rare. What was she saying? I think she was saying she's cooked at medium-rare. I knew that. But she was saying mid-rare. Yeah, I thought that was cool, but I was like, nobody, should I start saying that at restaurants?

I think she was worried that if she said med-rare, people would be like, is from the Mediterranean? Oh, okay. No, I don't. No, I think that she just... I'm going to go to Muso and Frank, and be like mid-rare. Yeah, they're going to send you out to the dumpster at the back. What's the line from the movie?

you're going to be crying in front of the Mexicans. And then the third version is Rosica, which is all of it. It's the creativity. It's the understanding of classic technique, but also the ineffable soul piece, the family piece. I am in this dish. The family piece. The family piece. Okay.

I'm ending our conversation. Do you think we got there? I do. I think that this was a long time coming. Our reckoning on Top Chef? It's not a reckoning. I just think it's like, like you said, like I think they were on a real thing. real heater. I think doing Portland

in the pandemic was like an incredible accomplishment. And then I think L.A. was that All-Stars? Well, so they had, yeah, and please, Kai, chime in on this. They had the... L.A. was in the can, right? There was the... Was the L.A. season was the one where they were like,

you'll go to the Trolls premiere on March 20th, 2020. Everybody was like, hooray! And then Portland... But that was an incredible All-Stars season, right? And then Portland was the pandemic season. and then... London?

Are we skipping? What about the Texas season? Oh, Houston. Houston London. Houston London? Portland was the first one. And then Houston was the one whose winner has been memory hold and we never talk about it. That's right. Gabe?

Yep. And then we may have mixed up to it. And then London was World All-Stars. Where are you with this? I mean, I'm a week behind because I'm a peacock watcher until the day I die. It doesn't go out until Thursdays. Salute the feathers. But so I just watched the croquette episode last night.

I think to your point, it's like, why are seven different chefs making croquettes? Yeah. And also, like, why are you serving croquettes in the hot Midwestern sun? Yeah. By the way, we're mixing things up here because Budo won Top Chef Houston. Okay. Did Gabe win Portland? Yes, that's right.

Buddha won Houston. Who won London? Buddha. Right, back to back. Yeah. So, Kai, do you feel like the season will ultimately deliver because it's Top Chef and it always goes down smooth, or do you feel like there's a deeper concern here?

I think if they're setting up for some kind of like Rosica Sue Showdown, then that would be pretty tight. But I don't know. Yeah, I wonder when they call it on Last Chance Kitchen. They said after five, and then they'll run it again. So there's two left for Sue. Sue has to be two more, or one more? Last night was episode four of Last Chance's Kitchen, I think.

Right. So there will be a probably double-sized, triple-sized last chance kitchen next week when, because someone else will fall down into it. And then someone will win and join the competition. And then they'll start it. They've been doing the two tournaments essentially. I'll be very interested to see if your sue is a ringer theory pans out. I think Ripley told us that he's going to win. Because remember when Tom shows up in a tronnie and he's at the post office and he's like,

where does Dickie Greenleaf live? What does the guy say? Sue, Sue. Fallout and... Sympathizer for Monday. Thank you to Kai for producing us. Maybe I'll give you some more of my Joker takes. I thought that was the highlight of the podcast.

I'm glad that you waited until we got on mic to be like, I have no opinions about this. That's why I thought it was so weird. You were like, watch Joker 2 trailer. I just was trying to start something that everyone can watch. We don't know if people are watching Ripley and Three Body Problem, but we do know that they can watch a Joker Trance. For a movie they have in? It takes two minutes, yeah.

That's me. Bye-bye. Doing the minimum. God bless.