The Watch - Shows That Delighted Us: ‘How to With John Wilson,’ ‘Pretend It’s a City,’ and ‘Mr. Mayor’

Episode Date: January 12, 2021

Chris and Andy discuss some TV news, including the just-announced ‘Sex and the City’ reboot ‘And Just Like That…’ (1:09) and the HBO Max ‘The Batman’ series finding a new show runner (11:42). Then they get into some shows that delighted them lately: ‘How to With John Wilson,’ ‘Pretend It’s a City,’ and ‘Mr. Mayor’ (20:09). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the Rigger.com. And joining me on the other line, he's such a Miranda. It's Andy Greenwald. Hey, happy Monday in America.

We have so much to talk about today, Andy. We're going to get through a bunch of TV news that came across the Transom. Is it a tranceom a real thing? What is that? Is that like a... Yeah, like the Transom, there was the Transom, there was the Transom window, right? Okay. And then across the transom wire, like basically, like on our, it's on our desks now in the news business. Yeah, we're just sitting here. We got like these little white pieces of

paper coming out of the ticker tape machines. We're reading the news. We got some news in the beginning and then we're going to go through a couple of shows that have been delighting us recently. My ticker tape is just all Krasenstein brothers tweets. We're going to be talking about Mr. Mayor, how to with John Wilson and pretend it's a city with Fran Leeuowitz from Martin Scorsese. you on Netflix. So a couple of shows we're going to hit. Let's get into the watch. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away.

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Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. All right, man. How are you? Happy Monday. I'm great. I'm great. How are you? I'm doing okay. I'm trying to get through it. You know, it was like a very, I feel like very emotionally exhausted

from this last week. Like I feel very like fried. My nerve endings are shot, you know, all the cliches, but they're true. Yeah, I mean,

it's, it's a terrible time, which is why I'm glad that we can see each other, talk to each other, talk to our good friends in the greater watch listening community. Yeah,

I need to call Kiki's delivery service just to get me through inauguration day. The truth is, Chris, watching that movie would help you. But although I know you were speaking metaphorically. Yeah. But yeah, I know I'm grateful to have other things to talk about,

because this is really putting to a test even like deeply held psychological beliefs of mine that I am not up to enacting. Like, I serve no role in this peaceful transfer of power. You know what I mean? Like checking for Maggie Haber bombs like 19 times a day isn't doing my civic duty. In fact, it's probably just causing more mental and emotional anguish. So I can't say I practice what I preach, but I do preach. I try to preach feelings of, you know, tranquility and optimism.

Well, let me take you back to a simpler time. Let me take you back to a time when four ladies just lived in New York, trying to make sense of life and love, professional peaks and valleys. And there was a show called Sex in the City that was, I think would be, now, like, given how popular it was then, would be one of the biggest, you know, it was a huge, huge phenomenon. It would be like a, like, you know, I don't even think we

could, like, comprehend how popular that show was back then. Yes. And, Kaya, it's like Emily and Paris, but... Sorry. Sorry, Kai. That was a cheap shot. So, Sex and the City is coming back on HBO Max

in a, I guess a continuation of the story of Sex and the City of Carrie, Miranda, and Charlotte. Those three are going to be joining us. No Samantha on the new show, which is called And Just Like That. A teaser was released over the weekend.

Sarah Jessica Parker, Cynthia Nixon, and Kristen Davis are returning to the roles that they... First of all, I can't believe they got Governor of New York, Cynthia Nixon. I can't believe she cleared her busy schedule in Albany to be played the show. I can't wait for Miranda to be like a huge Medicare for Allhead on this show.

But there will be no Samantha. So, Andy, I have no idea how you feel about sex in the city and just wanted to gauge your reaction to nothing ever really dies in this world, man. I'd like to run a quick Twitter poll and just with at Chris Ryan 77. Do you think that my answer will be

secretly, I love the show. I could quote the episode where she bangs firefighters to you right now just off the dome? Or do you think I couldn't care less and I've never seen a second of it? I honestly think it's the former. It's the latter.

Okay. You've never seen sex in the city. I mean, it was on sometimes. I like to make jokes about the, like, the Doogie Houser openings and closings of the episodes when she was writing in her web blog diary. I couldn't help but wonder, man. It's one of the CR, I love that chestnut. But no, I never engaged with a show. Many people I love and respect have.

I don't have particular, nor do I have any particular fidelity to the sanctity of the brand and how they went out. You know what I mean? Well, they went out pretty. I'm glad that they are. So first of all, just for transparency sake, I've seen every episode of Sex and the City. I love it. I love it. Look at us. I actually quite enjoy this show. And you are like my Mr. Big. And I'm glad that they're coming back to sort of erase some of the crimes committed, frankly war crimes committed by Sex in the City to the movie, which featured a really questionable dalliance in the Middle East, I believe, or perhaps, I can't remember it was Dubai or where

they were, but, um, it was Abu Dhabi. Thank, thank you, Kyia. Thank you, Kaya for that. Kaya, you're the first words that you said. Weirdly, that's not, this isn't the first time she said that in 2020. No, I know. She's always talking up the city of industry there. So I've, I'm a, I'm a pretty big sex in the city fan, um, quiet as kept. Not the biggest on this podcast. I feel like we might want to bring in. I know. Kaya, is this your show? Yeah, I do. Oh, okay, okay.

I love sex in the city. All right, so don't listen to me. Be like, I don't know anything about it, but I'm going to mansplain the show. Are you excited for this to come back? Do you want the continuing adventures of these sassy ladies? I would be more excited if it was the full cast returning. I think it's a little lame. Oh, so you're a Samantha.

Well, I just don't think it really works without Samantha. I think she made up an entire role part. as a group. She was an archetype, that's for sure. Yeah, it's also, isn't she, like, let me put this in terms that I can understand. Like, she's the Kramer, right? Like, you need the person who's doing the crazy shit that instigates all the adventures, sexual, often in the city. The three of the women, yeah, had the city part handled. Yes. You know, Samantha was the sex.

Yeah, she was out there on the front lines doing the stuff. that shows up sometimes in the Cosmo letter columns. And the rest of them would be like, you put what, where? Right? Like, that's my understanding of it. Kaya, let me ask you this. Yes.

What do you think will be a, I mean, it's entirely possible that they'll just be like, Samantha moved to L.A. or something, or Dubai or whatever. Mm-hmm. But were they to write her off the show permanently, what would be a fitting death for Samantha?

Like, would it be a fatal case of gonorrhea? Like, what do you think would be the right way for Samantha to go? I wouldn't say fatal case of Godoria because I believe that she is pretty like safe sex but maybe something to lock those lights. I'm really glad that Kay is here defending the sanctity of Samantha. Can I just offer the best solution to this problem?

Sure. Yeah. Chris, our friend Ben Heller tweeted this. So he deserves all credit. But what they should say in the first episode is a voiceover from Kerry saying Samantha died of COVID-19. She had COVID. He was 19.

That's a perfect joke. Guy is totally quiet. That's a good one. The guy is offended. It's pretty good. It's pretty good. I mean, look, I think that in the spirit of things, there's obviously always more sex.

There's always more city. So great. That's fine. And we live in a culture and certainly in an economy where, as you said, Chris, Like Pharrell and Chad once told us, nothing ever really dies. TV adventures don't end. And HBO Max going into its treasure chest of shows that kind of made HBO, I think, is a notable

development, you know, and whether or not, Andy, you and I, I think we've been at the front lines on, like, just demanding a Dream on reboot for several years. Here's the beauty of this for our listeners. This won't surprise anyone. I had that teed up. Did you see me on Zoom sit back? because I was like, Chris is going to finish this bit

and I'm going to uncork a Brian Ben Ben gag from the vaults. But yeah, are there any other HBO shows that you would love to see get the continuation treatment but actually go back

into a series? Not just like a Deadwood movie. I mean, no. Is that, I mean, how are we leaving, really leaving luck on the table like that? We can't find out what happened to those horses?

We're running low on horses. I feel like, I don't know how many we got out there, you know. I feel like we have to be more careful with the ones that we have. No, I mean, of their shows, again, like, people would, will continue to say, like, I wish we had more of a certain show. But the whole brand of HBO was that it wasn't TV, right? It was HBO. So all of its programming were these prestige jewels in their jewel box that were perfectly curated and tended to and brought to stirring, if not occasionally, controversial conclusions.

So the dramas are all off the table. Of course, nothing is off the table anymore, but they ought to be off the table. And as this blurring between HBO and HBO Max continues with Casey Boys in charge, it is very likely that certain other properties might get a second look or a third look, but I don't think the dramas.

I think the comedies make the most sense. Okay. Because why not? Just keep going. Just bring Arles back. I guess they did bring Arles back with ballers. Yeah, right. They kind of just continue to reinvent they try to plug things into certain slots

of the viewership that they want to service. No one network has made more television about a sports agent than HBO. Oh, they're committed. They're committed to the bit. This seems like as good a time as any just to remind people because there was some news today because there was casting that Showtime is bringing back Dexter,

a show which... Oh, you were serious about this in your text message. You really did want to bring this back. I've watched as much Dexter as I have sex in the city. less, I would say. I've watched less, yeah. But I feel like it's generally understood, even by people who were big fans of the show, that Showtime ran that shit into the ground, right?

Like, it was nine seasons, and then at the end he was a lumberjack or something. Like, that's cool. That's good. And so the idea of, I mean, no network or service is immune to this where TV is going, and that's, okay, that's where we're at and we're not going to pretend, we're not going to clutch pearls and be offended, but especially about shows that we didn't particularly care for. but it is pretty wild to me.

The Showtime is jumping into this too. Are they going to reboot Homeland after 18 months? Well, I mean, they don't leave much meat on their bones. I mean, Shameless is finally ending after what 11 or 12 seasons and fully earning its title. Yeah. So it's kind of wild to imagine. I wouldn't be surprised if Homeland came back. Oh, for sure.

In some capacity. Yes. Yeah, with, you know, in the way to do it is like, I'm giving this one way for free. Yeah. Yeah, Kerry, it's a sole role. That big bushy beard. A couple of other pieces of news we wanted to get to today. The Batman show on, I guess it would also be on HBO Max, is going to have a new show runner.

Now, I did not know that Terrence Winter had left the show, to be completely honest. For people who don't know, this imagining of the Batman story would be a prequel to Matt Reeves' Batman movie, which has not yet come out. So this would be an upscale version of Gotham, which ran for, not. unfathomably long time on Fox. Right. So this would be a look at police corruption in the city of Gotham. It was supposed to be run by Terrence Winter, who was the showrunner on Boardwalk Empire, I think wrote Wolf of Wall Street, worked on Spranos, obviously. And he left, I didn't even notice this in November over creative differences.

And now the new showrunner is Joe Barton, who did a show called Gehri Haji on Netflix that a lot of people liked. I didn't get a chance to check that out. I watched most of it. It was right up my alley. I mean, I'm very interested in all things Japanese and also all things Kelly McDonald. But it just kind of fell flat for me and I never returned to it. That's not an indictment of Joe Barden in any particular way, which the show didn't quite work for me.

But I think I would love to talk to Terrence Winter about this stuff. You know, I've never met him or talked to him. but it's pretty interesting to look at his arc as he really was. I mean, he's a very talented guy, he's a smart and thoughtful guy, has a career as a writer before the Sopranos, but really became like a utility player, a Swiss Army knife for HBO, at least in terms of its old brand, right?

He did stellar work on the Sopranos. Did he work on vinyl? Yes, he did. And when they kind of wanted to, like we were saying before about their love of sports agent narratives, They were like, let's carve out this space. This is still the type of show we want to be making, even if not specifically the Sopranos. And he delivered for them with Bordwalk Empire, which as I, you know, wrote many, many times back in the Grandland days, was kind of doing the mass market sopranos that David Chase always refused to do.

The much more full-throated bloody gang show, right, that kind of existed to almost give showcases to character actors and have big gunfights, but didn't really have the emotional. heft that the Sopranos did, and then stepping into vinyl for that same kind of like macho worldview that didn't, you know, that show didn't really connect on any level. And they brought him into kind of HBO up Batman. But the Max is winning in the HBO Max War, right? Like the Warner Brothers directives are winning. Again, Joe Barton could make a brilliant show. And we would be thrilled if he did. But this sort of corporate teet servicing bums me out. Yeah, I mean, I just Count me in for season tickets for the Tunes's The Driving Cat runs the DC Cinematic Universe experience. I fucking love like Walter Hamata going into The York Times to explain Earth 1 and Earth 2.

I'm already a fan. Anytime the head of your studio needs to give like all these interviews to explain the overarching narrative philosophy of all of your content, I love it. I love it. I love it. And he got extended. I mean, Terrence Winter leaving or staying. I would love to know what the creative differences were. I'm very curious to see what Joe Barton does with this. It does seem like it's right up his alley.

But doing a prequel show for a movie that hasn't come out yet, and we don't know if Robert Pattinson is going to stay as the Batman. It's just amazing shit. It's also really interesting and way too soon to make any judgment on this. But prior to HBO Max, there was a service that we didn't really cover, which was the DC. DC had its own channel. right? Yes. And it was a combination of like comic subscription service, but also the place where you could watch Doom Patrol, which is now on HBO Max and is pretty interesting for pal Justin Halpern's Harley Quinn cartoon, which is really funny. But also stuff like Titans, which is probably fine. You know what I mean? But I'd have no interest in watching it because it exists. It was correctly positioned in that people who want to subscribe to a DC centered comic book slash television universe, great. Here's your show.

what's odd and it's something that we've sort of seen similarly with the way Star Trek is being managed over it at CBS All Access or soon to be Paramount Ploos or whatever we're calling it. Just throwing content that you own at something isn't it's it's treading water. I guess in the marketplace, not the marketplace of ideas, but the marketplace. But I don't know what you're doing other than that, other than laying down markers. You're not getting new eyeballs. You're not converting people. You're just converting things that you own into other things that you own, which maybe is the end product of this stage of capitalism where studios are all owned by the networks, which are all owned by the same cable companies or streamers. And we're just sort of circle jerking Uroboros sing ourselves into abstraction.

But not sure. I'm on the, I know I began that by saying it might be good. Sure. Okay. Might be good. But all of this, by the way, is a great way to clear our throats before the shows that we're talking about, which. I think stand in very bright and important contrast to this type of television. Sure. Yeah, I wanted to mention one more thing that we had here written down that was

like the of news this week. FX and Danny Boyle are going to be doing a biopic series about Steve Jones, the guitarist from the sex pistols. I believe it's called Pistol. Danny Boyle obviously did trust for the network a little while ago, which I think we talked about a couple of episodes of that. And I thought it was very cool, but I didn't really quite grab that much traction. And this was written by Frank Cottrell Boyce, who wrote 24-hour party people for Michael Winterbottom, which is an awesome movie. And he also wrote millions for Boyle. And it's going to feature characters, I mean, John Leiden, Sid Vicious, the Chrissy Hyde from The Pretenders will all be characters in the show. So is this in, this is in canon for the Sex Pistols Extended Universe.

Yeah, SPEU is a thing that I've been personally really monitoring. I don't know if you saw John Liden talk about Earth 1 and Earth 2 on Alex Jones recently. Yeah, I was going to say, John Liden's later period is like Earth fuck off, right? Like it's not the same continuity. This is by definition interesting once you get below the hood, right? Because once you realize that it's Danny Boyle and the guy who wrote 24-hour party people one of the best movies of this young century, I think, you realize that this might be so much more than it could be.

Because making a six-part show about Steve Jones is, you know, it's slightly less than making a three-season miniseries about Ringo. It is not your normal entry point into a well-known story, but that alone kind of makes it interesting. And Steve Jones is just sort of like literally just workman-like career while being front and center to all the craziness that the sex pistols represented is it's kind of cool. It seems like a cool project. At first, I was back on my heels because it just seemed so out of left field and are we just like servicing this relationship we have with Danny Boyle. But maybe it's going to be creative and fun.

Yeah. And I'm actually equally excited for the creation records movie or. Did you see that? Yeah, I think that Danny Boyle's executive producing just because Alan McGee is such an incredible character. And for people who don't know, creation was this really influential independent music label in England. Was in England or was it Scotland?

Was it Scottish-based? He's Scottish. He's Scottish, but he was based in London. And they obviously were the label that put out My Bloody Valentine and Oasis and so many other really huge bands from England. So I would be really excited to see it that. Biff Bang Pow. That's right.

He's own band. That's right. Why don't we take a quick break? And when we come back, we'll talk about the sort of collection of shows that we had in mind for today. The playoffs are here. And you can predict the action

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All right, ma'am. I don't really know if we have like a unifying theory that unites these three shows. Do you have one? I do. Good. I do. Well, first thing I'm going to do is say we're going to talk about Mr. Mayor

and it does not fit my... Your unifying theory. Okay. So we're going to kick it out of the theory and talk about it at the end of the show. I'm really glad we are talking, about how to with John Wilson and pretend it's a city, not because they are both deeply, deeply, deeply New York shows that I think if you

have lived there as we live there can make you feel a lot of strong emotions, including nostalgia for missing the city that we love so much. That's one way into talking about this, but I kind of wanted to start more in relationship to our previous conversation about the circle jerking of IP that is happening everywhere. And these shows as very important antidotes or at least temporary solves from that. And so to give you a little bit more background for people who don't know the shows that we're talking about, how to with John Wilson premiered late last year. And we kind of flew under our radar for a while.

But it seems like both of us watched it independently over the holidays. And it is executive produced by Nathan Fielder from Nathan for You fame. And you can you can tell guy John Wilson is someone who has just been filming New York and filming life documentary style on his own for years and then was putting stuff up on the web. And together they've crafted all of his sort of obsessions and deadpan observational skills into this completely unique show that when you turn it on, you will be. confused and then you might be put off and by the end you will be kind of obsessed and it will take you places visually and emotionally that you did not expect and especially at this moment,

especially in this year, I just feel like has such a unique point of view on human existence in a way that really, really surprised and touched me. And pretend it's a city is a Netflix 30 minute per episode kind of documentary, but it's not. It's just it's just. It's just. It's just They feel like, honestly, they feel like magazine columns. Like they... Yeah, it's, it's Martin Scorsese turning the camera on his best friend, Fran Leibowitz, the very aserbic writer and comedian and, a woman about town.

Right. Who is someone, if you have lived in New York, you just know of as bedrock, as a celebrity. She's kind of like the Angeline of New York, I would say. She's a public intellectual, right? Which is, which means that, yeah, as Angelina is to L. She is to New York. Sure.

You see her sometimes. She's famous, and they're famous for very different things. And before we talk about the specifics of the show, I just am delighted that these shows exist. And I don't know who needs to hear it. But whoever is championing. You dropped out. I don't know who needs to hear this. No, you know what I'm going to do after this?

Let this sink in. That's where I'm going with this. I'm going to start stating every opinion that I have on the watch. People should just assume that I've already said, let me be clear. Yeah, well, look, if we have a podcast, I think that we don't know who needs to hear this,

but clearly you do. We are trying to be clear. Yeah, right? Sometimes. I'm not saying we succeed. But whoever in the development departments or whatever of HBO and Netflix, whoever found these shows

or took the pitch, shepherded them, protected them, got them on the air. Bravo. Thank you. If you are listening, Casey Blois or Bella Bajaria, please promote these people

or keep them in the room where it happens. Because HBO starts to feel less and less like HBO, as we've said, as all the good things about it, begin to leach away bit by bit as we watch it on HBO Max and, you know, it suggests the next thing we should watch is the Big Bang Theory. but also with things like the Sex and the City reboot, you know, it could be good.

There's story there to tell, but it also feels like everything else and it just all starts to blur. I won't have you, you know I'm Blois Boys. We're Blois gang. And so when you see, when he could still pull industry and I may destroy you out of a hat.

Yes. Oh. They got that, the mayor of East Town is coming, you know. HBO still delivers. Yeah. HBO puts out a new show. And if that show is called Jump, This podcast retitles itself to how high. That is basically how we operate.

There's no one is doubt. Let me be clear. I don't know who needs to hear this. I don't know who needs to hear this. But I'm just saying in terms of just brand dilution, these little chips and things, you know, they add up. And how to a John Wilson is so bizarre and so special. I don't think it would exist.

Well, I don't know if it would be noticed or appreciated as quickly as this was. And it was a slow burn over the last few months. but I also don't know if it would exist if they weren't championing it. And similarly, like, in the giant just flood of Netflix and everything that it is, and by the way, I felt, I thought it was very poetic that as I tuned in to watch a Fran Leibowitz conversation show, didn't notice that in the top 10. The first thing that greeted my eyes was Netflix being like, we're basically doubling the price of our service again over the, like, we basically doubled our service cost over the last two years.

Oh, I didn't notice that. you had that same thing. They were like, hey, so this is going to cost $14 a month soon. And I was like, remember when this was just like a little fun thing that you tacked onto your credit card? Remember when you guys would mail me scenes from a marriage and I would forget I had it for two years? Whoa, whoa, whoa, that statute of limitations is not up. There are people out there who are just like, I need to know more about this marriage.

So we need more things like this. And I'm so glad that they exist. Both of these shows gave me the same sensation, which is, essentially like, I can't believe this is on TV. Now, whatever TV means right now, I don't know. And whatever, like, sometimes you watch it on your iPad, sometimes you watch it on a 60-inch flat screen. Sometimes you may, there may be some people out there who have their, their Netflix box connected to their old tube TV. I have no idea how they do that. But whatever TV is, it still has this amazing capacity to become very rote. And there was a feeling I had a couple

years ago when I think anything from like Atlanta and Fleabag were coming on where you just felt like TV had this kind of liquid feeling of creativity and that there was all these possibilities of what could exist on these on these different networks. And I think that that got lost a little bit like you're saying in the consolidation in the mass production. Sure, there's there's great stuff. We had a great, great 2020 was an awesome TV year, I thought. But I think sometimes a lot of shows feel the same. And I'll a lot of shows kind of follow the same map. And both how to and pretend it's a city don't.

Now, I don't know whether or not Martin Scorsese is like, I made a Netflix show. He might just be like, thank you for the check. I'm going to go make this thing. But it is a... In the first episode, Martin Scorsese says he no longer goes below 57th Street in Manhattan. It's great. So I would say his sense of the world is limited. But I would say that these two shows, like, when you're watching Pretend It's a City,

you're like, holy shit, Martin Scorsese made this. You know what you mean? Like, there are definitely flourishes and especially in the editing that you are signature like gestures. What? How old is Martin Scorsese now? He's got to be close to 80, if not already. Right. And so there are a couple moments when you're like, a guy

close to 80 made this too because he clearly only got, or maybe it was pandemic affected or maybe Fran didn't want to do it again, but he only got like a certain amount of B-roll of her walking. Oh, yeah. It's just like she's crying this in the street. She crosses the same street, like in every episode? Yes. Sorry. No, I mean, you're right.

But essentially, you know, pretend it's a city is basically like, it's a Yelp review. I mean, it's, it's Fran Lebo. It's kind of like, here are the things that I love and hate about New York City. And most of the things that I hate about them are the people who don't understand how to live here. And each one is sort of loosely based around a topic or an idea. She's got one about the MTA. she's got one about how tour, you know, how people walk. But, you know, it kind of flits into these hidden treasures and secret corners of the city,

a city that I miss very much and that, you know, has obviously gone through a lot over the course of the, of 2020 of the pandemic year. And nobody really sees New York. I mean, with the exception of maybe Spike Lee, like, I don't know if anybody. Who figures in the show as well. Yeah. And I don't know if anybody is able to see New York with quite the same. same eye Martin Scorsese has over the last 30 or 40 years, you know, and, and, and, or, friend Leibowitz's eye. Exactly. And, and, and, and to just kind of be able to replicate both

the sensibility on the, in terms of Fran Leeuowitz and her kind of like sarcastic, you know, weathered, kind of like, I wish I could leave, but I'll never leave feeling. And you combine that with Scorsese's flare and his ability to kind of capture the palpable energy that I think probably still exists in that city just out of the sheer way in which it's organized. It's just such a delightful show. It added to which the episodes are like 29 minutes. So like you can just kind of pop one on and be like laugh a couple of times and choke up a couple of times and say like, oh, I've been to that bodega a couple of times. And it's just a great ride. And I think that, you know, a lot of the first episode, as you said, is about how people. No one knows how to walk in

New York. And Friendly Boots, who does not own a cell phone is obviously very, very anti-people who stop in the middle of the street or who are riding their bikes while checking doom scrolling something and also eating a piece of pizza and thus piloting the bike with their elbows. You mentioned the people who see New York a certain way and that way is not as background noise while staring at a cell phone and Spike Lee, Martin Sorsese, friend Lieboitz, I would put John Wilson in that category as well and it kind of connects the shows. His whole show, he's looking at things not through a screen but through a viewfinder, through a window, right?

He's filming all the time. And there is something very beautiful and profound about the things that he sees as paired with the themes of the episodes or what he's noticing. There's always something in his archive or something that he's captured that brilliantly, often very hilariously illustrates the small, almost quotidian observation he's making about how life is. And I think that that it's not just what connects the shows. I think it's one of the things that I found very moving right now in a year that where, experience has contracted so much for everyone because we're hopefully staying safer by staying mostly at home. But also for, and I don't think this is just true for people like us who used to live in New York and now live in L.A., which is obviously kind of an extreme change. I don't know

how many places, I mean, cities in general, yes, whether it's Chicago or Houston or Portland or Seattle or whatever. Cities, you have a lot of sensory experience and you can run into people and you can have chance and beautiful things just happen to you. And Chris and I, privately when we talk, like, that's something that we miss about New York. But I just think in general, in a time when many people's worlds have contracted and not only contracted in terms of where you can go, but just contracted to like literally just looking at news updates of a horror cycle in American history, watching two programs that are about looking outside of that, looking outside of yourself, are really, really uplifting and

affecting in different ways. And the way that John Wilson goes from something that is absolutely just normal and realizing that it's something much bigger. And the one that really struck me, I mean, there's little moments of grace and surprise in every episode. But early on, I think it's the second episode maybe is about scaffolding. And if you've ever lived in New York or been to New York, you know that just most buildings have hideous scaffolding on it.

And you have to dodge the sidewalks and you kind of have to navigate once you're walking, am I going to go on this side of the poles or that side of the poles? How did this get here? There's nothing like making the wrong choice in that regard when you're just like shit. Especially if you think you're getting refuge from the rain, but you go to the place where the rain is collecting. Yes. Anyway, it goes from explaining who profits from this,

why this is to saying something kind of lasting and beautiful about why we protect things at all and what value we get out of it. And so I'm not saying that these shows wouldn't hit or hitting, I'm not saying they wouldn't hit if. that wasn't this year. But the combination of the year that we've all, well, the year that we're all continuing to go through

and the experiences we're having or not having, coupled with what all of the rest of TV is turning into, made these really shine brighter. Because to your point about, like, feeling like we're living in this moment of great creativity, I would say that the floor has raised across the board. Yeah, me too. Definitely.

The expectation for TV is higher, but the same kind of group think, group voice. I mean, it just exists in the, in the medium because of how it's made. Yeah, and I think I was... In the note processes and everything. I was hosting a panel with the cast of industry actually for SAG and, you know, what are the things that... Okay, flex.

Okay. One of the things that the cast was talking about was how genuinely exciting it was to do that show because they didn't know what was going to happen next. Not in a mystery way and not in like a thriller or an Easter egg or mystery box kind of way, but in a people are capable of surprising you and it would be nice if shows about people could reflect that and that they weren't just sort of hemmed in by their tropes and their archetypes

and they were able to actually like express a kind of humanity and a capacity to surprise one another. And I feel that way about watching these two shows too where you watch the risotto episode of how to and you're just like, well, you know, that's just about the most breathtaking portrait of another person that you can actually see on screen. And it just kind of is nestled in this weird, I guess, comedy on HBO.

And I don't know. I thought they were both just incredibly moving. And we are getting a second season of how to, which is great. Was the industry cast, since they love surprises, were they also surprised that I wasn't there? Yeah, they were devastated. It was real, the tenor was really changed because of that. I get that. I'm sorry that you had to go through that.

That must have been tough. Last thing. about that your point and their point? Like, that's absolutely true. And I just love that we got to say it and found a way to say it about surprise. I mean, I think the real magic trick of well-made television is when the incredibly labored over production can still surprise. Yes. Can lead you without realizing you're being led to a place of surprise.

And like, as you were saying that, I was thinking about how rarely we are surprised by human behavior. here in scripted characters. And it's incredibly hard. You know, I'm not pretending I know how to do it. But if you think about, without spoilers, what Kendall does at the end of the second season of Succession might be one of the

best recent examples of it where it was all laid out for us and for him, where the season was going and where that character was going. But it felt like you still gas. Yeah, I'll give you a different example from Succession, which is the scene I think I've referenced a dozen times as one of my favorites, is the scene between Shiv and Kendall

after the shooting at the office when he, I guess, spoiler, if you listen to the spot guys, you watch Succession Season 2, but he says to her that he's not going to be the heir to the throne. Logan is not going to pick him to run the company. And it's this moment of like incredible vulnerability and he breaks down and like is in her arms.

But every scene, every other scene in succession pretty much trains you to expect the two of them to do this incredibly ornate, theatrical curse out of each other. And it winds up being this really tender moment between a brother and a sister that you didn't think could actually happen.

And that's what we're talking about. We're talking about shows that are courageous enough to deviate from their own blueprint, essentially, and what makes them successful. And I think that's also what makes the two shows we're talking about how to and pretend it's a city. I think important viewing for people who are fans of fictional scripted television,

but maybe even more importantly, or crucially, people who are responsible with making it or green lighting. Yeah. Let me be clear, Casey Blois. Keep making it. Yeah. So we've talked to something more predictable. Exactly.

I said that you stole my segue. The same way that we would, we're sort of celebrating the unfamiliar feelings that we got from pretend it's a city and how to with John Wilson. I think that there was a real chicken soup for the soul feeling about Mr. Mayor. Now, I don't know necessarily. may vary about how much you needed a Tina Faye Robert Carlock sitcom in your life. But for me, I found this show incredibly weirdly comforting. I don't necessarily think it's like, you know, the taxi or something. I mean, it was a workplace comedy. But Ted Danson, obviously,

it stars as the mayor of Los Angeles. It was initially formulated that this was going to be a 30 rock spinoff, that this was going to be a Jack Donagie show. with Alec Baldwin. And then I think it obviously went through a couple of different transformations and wound up being the show about Ted Danson, who's kind of got a classic, like, clueless yet capable protagonist who finds himself in a position of great power and then has like a satellite people sort of orbiting around him as he bumbles his way through the management of a city. Maybe not the best timing for that kind of story in terms of how much we are coming to depend on and question the institutions that govern our lives.

But I was curious what you thought of this. I mean, I think in a vacuum, Mr. Mayor is like pretty good, right? Yeah, I'll start by saying I liked it. And I liked it more than I thought I was going to like it, honestly, because I came into the show with three big bags, which together form baggage. One was knowing that this was intended to be a 30-Ruck spinoff with Jack Donaghy as the mayor of New York.

city to what you're saying. Like, I'm just not sure if this is the time for even joking about poor governance. And three, this is it because Chris, sidebar, this is a time for unity, right, above all else. Three, comedies, particularly comedies that have been developed for and gone through a process, which can be quite helpful, but the broadcast network development note process. As Mike Scher, creator of many fine broadcast comedies, once told me, like,

sitcoms should be funded to make five to ten episodes that then can be thrown out. And the first one you see is the sixth or the 11th. I forget the number that they gave me. Because it's first pancake stuff. Speaking of succession, right? Like, it's just not, it hasn't jelled yet. Temperatures aren't right.

The recipe, the balance isn't there yet. And that's very clear in the first two episodes of Mr. Mayor. But there's really nothing like a Carlisle and Faye joke machine. Yeah. You know, it's really fun to have those jokes flying at my head again. It's pretty great to see Ted Danson doing anything. It's always wonderful when you see which Saturday Night Live colleagues Tina really liked

and felt weren't being used correctly. In this case, it's Bobby Moynihan, who I've always really enjoyed as well. And three, to your point, Chris, like, workplace comedies of a certain type. it's a formula and there's nothing wrong with that formula. Those two people might, Carlock and Tina Fey might be the best in the world at the third joke in a set up. There will be like two punchlines and you're like,

that was pretty funny. And then Ted Danson is like, and my wife was murdered by the nightstocker. And you're just like, wait, what? And then it goes into the next scene and you're like. And that's the one that they, that Carlock makes them stay till two in the morning for. Like,

they are in fucking sane about how they craft this stuff. And you can tell, does it feel like real life? No, but is it dazzling and have its own music like Sorkin's stuff? Yeah, it does. I think that my only remaining kind of criticisms is that I, it's still, it should be a New York show. Like, New York is understandable and graspable as a city. As we just discussed in these other two shows, governing it feels a, impossible in a palpable and tactile way, mainly because you could traverse it, right? Like, it is it is, uh, graspable in the mind. Los Angeles, as we're especially feeling right now, is just so vast and so sprawling and so many different cities stitch together that it doesn't really mean as much as in terms of, it doesn't mean as much as a, uh, staging ground for jokes or stories. especially in a 21-minute broadcast thing. So for me,

that feels a little lost and, you know, unspecific, especially because Tina Fey and Carlock are lobbying these grenades at L.A. from New York. Right. They don't live here,

you know? So I'm not saying that you and I could pitch better jokes about the fucking COVID-testing debacle at Dodger Stadium back behind my house. But like, there is a certain, like, where are we going on?

To your point, in the first episode, it's quickly, addressed and handled and then brushed aside that this is a post-COVID show, that this is taking place after they have, I guess, eradicated COVID. Dolly Parton fixes. Yeah, right. And he is the mayor who takes over for the mayor who is like, I can't do this anymore because it was too hard to get. And I, it's definitely a choice. We've discussed a couple of times about whether or not shows will grapple with what this planet has gone through over the last 12 months or whether or not they will

anxiously await a world in which they can go back to quote unquote normal. As the death toll rises, it's kind of increasingly unfathomable of how you would make a piece of art and not grapple with it. This is definitely a choice. And in terms, and so much as like you're watching a sitcom, you want 27 minutes of mid-loles and taking a break from Let Me Be Clear Twitter, like it does its job very, very effectively. I was just curious whether or not you thought the yada yotting of COVID, missed the mark at all. I was surprised by it. It was also one of the funnier bits in the pilot. It definitely made me laugh. And I think I'll just, instead of commenting definitively now, I just kind of want to put a marker down because what you said resonates with me. I've just

started to change my thinking on this. You know, I was very much like, people don't want to watch shows with masks. People want to move on in spirit, you know, basically, I'm Kevin McCarthy over here. You know what I mean? Like, let's not say who caused the problem. Let's just all move on from it. Right. I think, I'm not sure I feel. that way anymore. I just feel like this is all too awful. And on a scale that we have not know, you know, even people who have suffered, we haven't suffered, people who have truly suffered in this. There just hasn't been a reckoning, you know, of any kind yet because how could there be? It's all still going on. So I'm not, I no longer feel like keep your, keep your virus out.

Yeah, I think that there was a point last year where we were like, let's just get succession back and like skip the season. Yeah, right. So it remains to be seen. I kind of admired it. because mainly because they made a good joke about it. And it ultimately would have felt weirder if they hadn't, especially because for the Ted Danson character, it's kind of a lark that he's doing it. And it certainly doesn't feel like those positions should be filled by thrill seekers anymore.

But the one other thing that I'll say, and I cannot wait to be proved wrong about this, the supporting cast, I'm not sure about yet. You know, it has to be an ensemble show. Well, you should take your own medicine on this one because I think, like, let's have that discussion after like six episodes. Yeah, there's no question the second episode is better than the first.

Yeah. You know, and second episodes are hard. It's just, you know, there was a certain formula they were following, and I think getting Holly Hunter into the show kind of almost like Alec Baldwin was on 30 Rock. She's kind of amazing because she always is. I don't know if she's a sitcom actor, which doesn't mean she's not good. She's incredible. Yeah.

But her presence is weird. Yeah, it's just wild where you're just like, You were in Raising Arizona. This is strange. We're doing this now. Yeah. And then I guess it might just be lack of familiarity. You know, the good place was mostly unknowns in Ted Danson and Kristen Bell and they all turned into should be knowns.

Yeah. You know, they were so brilliantly cast. So the rest of the cast, I don't know yet. And so watching them do their share of the heavy lifting felt odd. But I think it also felt odd because it's the first and second episode and no one knows how to write for him yet. So much more promising than I would have thought. Yeah. We'll keep our eye on it.

So I think we give thumbs up to definitely. Definitely how to do with John Wilson and pretend it's a city on Netflix. And then we are, if you're looking for something that's like kind of a warm, familiar feeling, definitely check out Mr. Mayor. It's on NBC and it's on peacock. You could do worse than a triple feature of these three half hours. That is a perfectly nice weekend. If you need to piece out for the evening, this is a good way of doing it. Andy, it was great to talk to you.

I have to cut it a little short today because I got to run. But we'll be back on Thursday with regular schedule programming. I can't, I just, it's fine. You have a life to live. It's just that I was going to read my chicken marinade email. I was going to name the movie that I didn't like last week, and I was going to finally tell my YouTube story. Let me be clear.

The watch still has mysteries. I don't know who needs to hear all three of those things, but I guess you won't learn them today. All right. Thanks. Talk to soon, man. Stay safe, Francis.