The Watch - Solving the 'Star Wars' Identity Crisis and 'Don't F**k With Cats,' With Chuck Klosterman | The Watch

Episode Date: January 17, 2020

Chuck talks about why he's in no rush to see 'Rise of Skywalker,' despite being a massive fan of the franchise (5:07) and why it might be time to stop trying to expand the 'Star Wars' universe (26:45). Plus: 'Don't F**k With Cats,' a good show that you can't really recommend (36:43). Host: Chris Ryan Guest: Chuck Klosterman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys, it's Liz Kelly, and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. This week, to celebrate the 100th episode of The Rewatchables podcast, Quentin Tarrantino returns for the third and final movie in his three-part series with us. In the final episode, Bill Simmons and Sean Fennessey discussed with Quentin one of his favorite movies, the 1990 crime thriller King of New York. Make sure to check out this special episode and follow at the Rewatchables on Twitter for highlights of all 100 episodes. I need sports to have to clear the room. Hand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan.

I am an editor at the ringer.com, and joining me in a shed in Portland. It's Chuck Closerman. Hey. Hey. I've been a really long time since you've been on the Watch. I've only been a guest, and I was thinking that should I try to do the entire episode

in character as Andy? I would really be interested to see that. I don't know if 40 minutes of it would be good, Well, you know, I get a turtleneck. I say things like persnickety. He doesn't have a turtleneck. I talk about the craft. I feel like Andy usually wears a black turtleneck.

No. He does not. I think he does. Do you think they gave it to him in showrunner school? He just got a turtleneck and, like, walked out onto set, started framing things and talking about motivations for characters? I just, when I picture him in my mind, he's always wearing a turtleneck, regardless of weather. Greenwald and I'll be back on Monday together,

but I was up here in Portland visiting Chuck working on some stuff, and I thought it would be fun to check in with you. To do a pop culture check-in. Sure. What do you think about being in Portland? I love it. It's a little cold here. I think L.A. softened me up a little bit.

But I think the problem with coming up here for like three days is that the third day I'm like, this is perfect. I would live here. And then I leave. And then I forget about, you know, everything. And then I come back. I'm like, it's a little cold. It's a little wet.

What do you think about being in Portland? You live here. Yeah. You know, I really like the rain. I find it, one, great for sleeping. But also, you know, I think this might be part of it. You know, it's like, so I grew up on a farm in the 80s when there was a kind of a Midwestern drought. And my memories of being young is everyone talking about how it isn't raining, how anytime it rained, everyone was happy, how any prediction of rain seemed to make everybody sort of optimistic.

I think I have unconsciously internalized this relationship to rain that puts me in a good mood. I really do that. I'm not joking. I think it's true because I just feel like we, wow, I just remember people talking about how it wasn't raining all the time. And sometimes there would be, you know, lightning, you know. Yeah. And sometimes it would be heat lightning, though. And it never rains when there's heat lightning.

And that was almost a painful thing to experience to know that that lightning meant it wasn't going to rain. So this period of the winter here where it just rains every day, I like that as much as the summer. I know that you obviously, a lot of your life is dedicated to being a parent and you have your life out here. And I think it's fair to say that it's relatively suburban out here where you live, like outside of the city. Would you say, how much of your day-to-day life do you interact with another human being about popular culture? Well, outside of looking at your phone or talking to your wife. Okay, I talk about it with my wife every day, I guess. Yeah.

Often never. I mean, there are many days when the only people that I will talk to outside of my family, my wife and my kids is like maybe my kid's teacher and maybe like a waiter at a diner. Like I don't. Right. So, I mean, that's. And your kid's teacher's now like, have you seen fucking flea bag? Yeah, that does not come up. Yeah.

That does not come up. When you're trying to decide what you're going to spend your time. watching, do you just usually still just scrape Twitter and see what people are getting excited about and see like what headlines are being made and you're like, oh, I guess I'll watch, I got to watch the Irishman or I got it. Well, not really. I feel like I get a lot of information from Twitter, but not exactly guidance as to what I want to see or experience.

That seems to happen in the way it always has, which is just kind of mysteriously. Yeah. You know, you'll just, you'll see something, you'll hear something, or you'll talk to somebody in passing and it'll be like, I'm really curious about this. I've never been someone who was a really seeked out things

or felt a responsibility to watch. Because you know, I've written so much about popular culture. People ask me it's like, you know, do you feel an obligation to like, you know, watch the Kardashians or to watch like a or, you know, like or anytime there was like a

really kind of significant television show going on Grey's Anatomy or whatever? Like, do you feel an obligation to watch just to know what it is. And I never have. Right. Like, you know, there are, there are things that, that are, I think, pretty central to the pop culture experience that I haven't experienced at all. The reason why I'm asking that is, I was asking you what you wanted to talk about on

the show today and you were like, well, let's talk a little bit about Star Wars, which I've been talking about, like, for three or four months now, both the lead up to the movie and the Mandalorian. But I was kind of thinking, you must almost, I almost think that, like, watching people talk about Star Wars has like filled in the void of where you would watch Star Wars. Well, I'm glad we're going to talk about this because there's just some things that I want to ask you. An odd thing has happened.

Okay. So now, I like Star Wars. I probably like Star Wars more than the average person. I'm not one of those all the way in people who like, you know, like where's Chewbacca pajamas or something. It's like I don't read, I don't read like Star Wars novels or anything like that. But, you know, I've seen the first. movie probably five times. I probably saw Empire Strikes Back 20 times. I may have seen

Return of the Jedi twice and I've seen all the other ones. You've only seen a New Hope five times you think in your life? Probably five. Because the Empire Strikes Back was the first movie I saw in a theater. So then when they were suddenly available, like, you know, when VCRs and stuff and all this became this common thing. Then I saw Star Wars then. I remember the first time I saw Star Wars was actually the edited for TV version when, you know, which I feel like they showed right after the Empire Strikes Back had come out. That's how it used to be for TV. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, I would see the movie, like, I'd see, you know,

Return to the Jedi in the theater. I didn't, I mean, I think even as a kid, I was like, this isn't that great. And then I probably saw it again later just because it happened. And then all the other ones, you know, I've seen once, usually right when they came out. Like, you know, I was interested enough, and I knew enough about it or whatever. To go see the prequels and it goes see Force Breakings or whatever, yeah. Now, this last one is the first one I have not yet to see, okay? It's just because of the conditions of my life. I assumed I would probably go and see it like at 11 o'clock right away when it came out,

and then I never did, and now time has passed. I have not read a story about this Star Wars movie. Okay. It's not because I'm really even afraid of spoilers. I'm pretty certain, like, the empire's not going to win, right? It's like, I know, like, I have a sense of what it's going to be. but in the way the world is now, I've gotten this general sense about the movie

that is very clear. The sense seems to be this. The people who are maniacs about Star Wars, the people who whole life is sort of an extension of their relationship to this movie, they love it. The kind of person who's like, I'm like the thinking person, the Star Wars fan.

They hate it. You did that with like Andy Gras. Greenwald turtleneck voice just there. And then the generalized critics are like, it's not very good. And then there seems to be this kind of infighting over the meaning of this. And I kind of want you just to explain to me what has happened here because I have a few theories. Okay. Tell me, I'm going to say things and some you might be like, that's not what happened. Okay.

Okay. Okay. So is some of the reason this is polarizing is because people don't. like the conclusion that is reached, that somehow they think it contradicts what Star Wars is supposed to be about? And feel free to give me spoilers, because, like I say, I don't. So I would say that similar to the way the Game of Thrones ended,

that it's not so much the conclusions that are reached as the road it takes to get there, which is very jagged and has lots of U-turns and switchbacks and like unintelligible side missions. and you're just watching a movie where you're like, I don't really even understand if anyone actually wrote this movie. It's just like an accumulation of shots and scenes and moments. So the problem people have with this is the construction of it.

I assumed it was going to be something like the real reason was going to be like, you know, one of the previous movies, you know, like Lord Dern plays this role. And there was a lot of people who thought like they're trying to jam sort of these ideas of diversity into this story, which a segment of its audience seemed to think was, this pure thing that should not be... Right. So last Jedi came out, the last Jedi came out, and there was a, like, sort of backlash to it in certain parts of the internet

about how it had sort of desecrated what real Star Wars is about at the expense that it was basically trying to be, make a more diverse feel-good Star Wars movie at the expense of what Star Wars was actually about. Okay, yeah, I remember that. The sanctity of the force and shit like that. Okay. So is that part of the feeling,

the negative feelings toward this one, too? No, this one. is this political at all? Is that part of it? No, it's not. It's nothing. It's like, it's nothing. It's apolitical, I guess it's pretty childish and its morality where it's just like friendship can save the universe and stuff like that, which I don't actually think was ever really part of like the Star Wars recipe was like, you know what really matters is friends. You know, that is apparently like what saves the galaxy now. Oh, that is kind of the conclusion of the first film.

I think that the, I mean, well, they are friends. When I say the first film, I'm saying the 1977 film, you know, and they'll walk up together. Sure, but they weren't friends in the beginning of that movie. They meet Leah like three quarters into that movie. It's not like they're like paling around. That's true, I guess. It's the burgeoning friendships.

Right. So the people who love it, the people who... I don't know any of these people. Really? Yeah. Because it seems to be... There was an initial wave of people who saw the movie. I remember because I, I mean,

I remember looking at Twitter when I got out of the movie because I went to the premiere. And there was an initial wave of people who were like, JJ Abrams has done it. He made the perfect Star Wars movie and the perfect conclusion of this. And it now seems like those people

were just like, I don't know if they were lying to themselves, but we're trying to get ahead on a wave of what they imagined to be a very positive feedback for the movie. But I would say, all of the people I know are pretty much like,

that movie sucked. See, the handful of people that I know who are insane Star Wars people to me. Like, I don't like any movie as much as they like Star Wars. They seem to think it was great. They seem to think that it has all of the components that they love about it, which must be like non-textual. Right.

Like, it must be like the music and the way it looks and the... Just seeing the Millennium Falcon Fly or whatever. Well, and this central sentiment, because I mean the thing about Star Wars is the brilliance of it, as a million people have said, is that like, it's like, you know, it does really simplify a whole variety of problems down to a straightforward. Some things are good and some things are bad and those things are always at odds. So does this movie do that? Is that like, like we say childlike? It's pretty complicated.

Like, it just narratively, it's just pretty complicated. Like, I think that one of the things that the first Star Wars films, do very well is just saying like, this is where you are, this is why you're here, and this is what these characters want from this scene. It's just like really basic film writing. That doesn't happen in these movies. They move so fast. They are constantly planet hopping to different places for reasons that I feel kind of like business decisions, but I can't really understand why we have to go to seven planets when all of this action could take place on one. And it just feels like really, really rushed.

So why did that happen? Or what's the explanation for that? I mean, what you're describing to me is not what I thought the answer was going to be. I was certain the answer was going to be the meaning of this has now been changed to mean something else that people are seeing this movie. Well, this is an interesting question, though, because you and I have known each other for about 20 years, right? Yes.

More or less. I would say for 75% of the time that I've known you, and we talk about. a lot of the stuff that we're working on, or we'll talk a lot about the stuff that we're interested in, but Star Wars has never come up. In fact, I don't even know if I actually have ever had a conversation

with Star Wars about stories with you, especially not when we were living in New York and we were mostly writing about music and hanging out. It's really in the last five to seven years that Star Wars has become like a major pop cultural phenomenon again. And I think it's almost been strange because there are a lot of people like us

who have varying levels of attachment to the original trilogy, and maybe the prequels, and I've always been like, I really like Star Wars a lot. It was very formative to me in my childhood, are now being asked to kind of take on a certain level of investment

that I don't actually know that it was really there. Well, you know, it is a strange thing. It's a strange thing to do it late in life or in my middle age to be like, now I need, now I need to have like a lot of opinions about Star Wars. This is one of the rare situations, I think, where our age difference actually plays a role.

Like I'm 47, you're 42, right? Yeah. Okay, so it's five years difference. Okay. By the time, like, the return of the Jedi came out, I was super excited to see it, like high, high anticipation to go to it. But I think even at that age, it suddenly... Were you, like, 12?

I would have been 11. 11? Where, you know, I mean, I'm not trying to suggest I was like a super precocious person. I don't think I was. It seemed a little hokey to me then. I mean, that movie is kind of a hokey one, you know? It's like, and as a consequence, like, when I was in college from 1990 to 1994, it was in no way cool to be interested in Star Wars.

Like, I mean, there was at, like, the, like, it was, like, the friends I mentioned who are the most into Star Wars. There's still people I remember from college who we made fun of for liking Star Wars as much. That does not mean we didn't. I didn't like it. In fact, the reason I've seen Empire Strikes Back so many times is I remember you could buy the three movies on VHS around that time. And I did for whatever reason or either I or my roommate did or something. And we would really only watch the Empire Strikes Back because it's not only is the best movie, but it was just like, I don't know, it's the one that we watched.

I think of the three movies, the consensus is that it's the best one now, pretty much universal. It's critically probably. I mean, the first one you could say because of its innovation and the way it changed the culture, but from a movie standpoint, it's better. Right. So then there's this period from you in 1994, up to the prequels are really kind of in high gear in 99. Like it isn't out yet, but like there's Star Wars conventions are happening. And I think that is an interesting period in this sort of trajectory because there must be Star Wars fans forming in that period from the experience of watching it at home. from the experience of watching it at home.

Yeah, absolutely. And do they think about Star Wars in a much different way than like I would or you would? Like this is the person maybe five years younger than you. Oh, for sure. Yeah, there's a lot of people who I think actually prefer the prequels

to the original of movies. That seems to be people who were the 7, 8, 9 when they saw the prequels. Yeah, and they also, but there's a lot of like childlike wonder because like Anakin is a kid, like a child in that movie. And then there's also a lot of like very dense world building

because they do so much political stuff. And like what was the fall of the republic and the rise of the empire all happens in the prequels and everything. And you get to see him become Darth Vader. So there's a lot of like deep lore and like you kind of like hard sci-fi stuff in there, you know?

And also for a very young person, you know, when you look at say those first three movies, all the planets look like Earth, you know, because they were, where a kid now is exposed to all this kind of high concept cartoon stuff where they kind of expect a different world is going to be different, okay? And in the prequels, that's how it is. You know, but then there was like, you know, this person I was saying who's like kind of, I'm the thinking person, the Star Wars person, they were the kind of person who was always like, you know, it really makes no sense that in the

prequels, the droids fight a war, and then when we move forward in time, it's, it's stormtroopers. Like, why would you go from Robots to people? People pick out these type things, you know, they seem to hate this movie the most from what I can tell. Because it makes no sense. It does.

So I guess that may, see, one of the things that I was, I guess, wondering about, although anytime I've brought this up to people, they're always like, I'm sure that's not the case, but I feel like whatever the conclusion that comes from this, like, okay, Luke lives. Does he live? Or is he died in the last one?

He doesn't come back in this one? I thought he was. As a ghost, yeah. Okay, so he is dead. He is dead dead. Sure, but one of the things about these movies is that they have continued to revive people as ghosts or as visions or apparitions. I knew he was in this movie, so I assumed he must have not really died and it was some kind of Jedi trick, but he's dead. Okay. Did he just Chewbacadai? You think he does for about five minutes and then he comes back.

Okay, Princess Leia, who's dead in real life. kill her. She dies trying to save. She dies trying to like, yes, save Ray. Yeah. The guy from girls,

Adam Driver. He does. He, they kill him. Yeah. Okay. Does Ray kill him in like a lightsaber fight? He gets hurt in a fight against Palpatine at the end because they bring back Emperor

Palpatine. Okay. So, okay, so these are all these things that happen. Some people live. Some people die. Blah, blah, blah.

Here is my thing. And is this like a, like a, I feel that you can't end. these people's lives if George Lucas isn't involved and I don't think George Lucas is I'm not like some fan of his

I think that outside of Star Wars it's kind of hard to think of a movie he made I guess American Gafety you know it was like like a you know I don't consider him one of the great directors his friends seem to be the better directors you know

but he invented these people he decides what the story is right how can somebody else I don't know I don't want to be the person that goes like, it's not canon or whatever, but how can the guy, if he's still alive, not have the ability to dictate how the story concludes? That makes no sense to me. Well, I think I would agree with you if it turned out that seven years, let me tell you,

let's try a hypothetical. Seven years ago, Francis Ford Coppola is going through financial difficulties, which he has multiple times over the course of his career where he's like leveraged a lot of his like personal holdings to make a movie. So let's say something brings bad and he needs the money. And so he sells, and I don't even know if it's his rights to sell, sells the rights to Godfather to Disney, you know, or whoever. He makes a huge deal to be like Godfather sequels, prequels, video games, experiences if there was ever going to be like a Godfather world or something like that, which I think would actually be like kind of amusing if you were just going to build like a little Italy at the turn of the century kind of thing. and he sells it. And then five years later,

they've made, like, what happened to Tom Hagan after Godfather 2 movie. Sure. They make a sunny Corleone prequel. They make a veto Corleone after the end of Godfather 1 movie, but, like, in that early 1900s in New York

so we get to see the rise. They do all sorts. They just start, like, doing all this stuff around Godfather, and Coppola has nothing to do with it because he sold it. And even if people are like, you know what,

these aren't as good as, the godfather movies, the first two godfather movies, but it's pretty good and everybody really likes thinking about this world, about the Corleone family. But then at the end of whatever the cycle was of them making this stuff, they did something that profoundly changed the people's relationship to those original movies. I think you would see this kind of like, God damn it, like this was actually a bad idea to revive this franchise. This was like actually a bad idea. well are you saying now if this had happened what that's why i think people are so disappointed ultimately in the the rise of skywalker is that like they're like you know what maybe all of these

new movies which we thought were like this is pretty cool a new generation of people it's like we still want these people we just want to see these people again but it it i the huge i think the mistake of these movies these last three movies was to really incorporate people from the original trilogy at all to me. I think that it, A, weaponized the fan base way too much because people got way too possessive about what Luke is or what Han is or what Leah was. And then they also were like distracted by the presence of people from the original movies and never really fully were able to invest in, nor was there enough time spent on the new characters. Well, okay, I guess I see it. You're totally right. Your analysis is totally right. But you say when

you introduced those old characters from the original films, people became too possessive of what they are. Because exactly what you're saying, though. I feel like I don't possess those characters. George Lucas does. Like, he came up with them. So it does seem like it should, to me, if... But he did sell Lucasville.

He did. Yeah, I guess he did. I mean, I guess he did. So he can't, he knew what was going to happen. He can't, he can't argue. But I can't. Any more so than Coppola would be able to be like, you guys really bastardized what Tom Hagan was supposed to be.

Well, sure, but like, like, he can't really say this, right? Because he made the decision. Sure. But, like, it'd be like, okay, if somebody came to me, like, I wrote a novel, Avisible Man, and somebody's like, I want to write the sequel to that about all the same characters. Yeah. I can't imagine.

Don't do it probably because you're not going to sell any copies. The first one didn't. But it's like, but if you want, so I wanted to do that, okay. And I said, okay, give me the check. You can do it, you know? Uh-huh. Then I can't say anything. But if somebody said, I am writing the same.

sequel to infinite jest or whatever, you know. Right. I could be like, as somebody outside, it's like, well, that didn't happen. It's like, you're just, you just can't decide that this is how, what, like, these characters aren't real, but in that reality. So is it authorship that you think is like the important thing of like ownership there? Yeah. Well, I, because like, I think about this a lot.

Okay. Remember Friday Night Lights? Of course you do. We love that, right? Okay. Have you seen the outtakes or deleted scenes? From the movie or the show? The show.

No. Okay. There are scenes. Like, I think if you buy the CDs of them. Yeah. So DVDs, the CDs.

But, well, you can use any example you want of any show where there is deleted scenes, you know, that aren't used. Okay.

Within the reality of that show, did those things happen? No. Not within the reality of Friday night lights. It depends on the storytelling. This isn't real life. So if, like,

they make reference to things that happen and deleted scenes, I guess they happened. Because, okay, so we watch Friday Night Lights as a TV show, and we only see what's given to us. But in the reality of the show, in this scene, like, Saracen's going home. We don't know what Saracen likes to, like, what music he's into, but we assume sometimes he's listening. Okay. So there's things that are happening that we have no access to, that we kind of work from the premise that this exists, right?

We don't think that Friday Night Lights is only the scenes we see. there's if we're going to pretend it's real yeah although i think that that is like a pretty recent phenomenon where people are starting to like think about things their critical voice about shows is shot through the lens as if fictional characters are real people well i don't think that this is i know that that's not what you're saying yeah what i'm talking about is like this is not like a new a new question to me it's like okay in in the reality of rambo could he rant rocky Well, I think Roger Ebert is one of the people who brought this up. It's like Madonna in Desperately Secretly, Desperately Seeking Susan is dancing to a Madonna song at a club at one point.

Uh-huh. Okay, so what's happening there? Right. Is she not Madonna, but Madonna is there? Right. Does Madonna look different? Because now this person, are they clones? So what I'm saying is, like, when I saw the deleted scenes to Friday Night Lights, because I, you know, I was just going to watch them or whatever.

I was like, well. are we to assume are these like the things I'm not seeing? Because none of them dramatically change the story. It's not like Landry dies in one or whatever. But it's like, but they have conversations. And if we're going to kind of kind of play this thread out and like, we're going to pretend this is real, right?

We're going to think about this in a real way. This is kind of an authorship question, I suppose. That to me it seems like within the story of Star Wars that if you invent someone, you're the only person who knows what happens to them, what happened before and what happens after. It came out of your mind. So they exist in your mind. So I was wondering if maybe people saw this last Star Wars movie

and they were like, no way. There's no way that would happen. Well, it's interesting that you should say that. So the biggest difference to me between these sequels that have come out over the last five years, which in retrospect was probably one of their biggest mistakes is trying to cram these all in

within four or five years, is that these are movies driven by fandom. And the first three Star Wars movies, even though they were enormously popular, were driven by a creative act. And it's not to say that there's not creativity going on in Last Jedi and Force Awakens, in Rise of Skywalker even,

but the amount you hear about we're doing this for the fans. We're doing this because the fans want to see this happen. doing this because these things matter to the fans is a totally different act of creation than I have a story I want to tell. And that story, you can take or leave it. But ultimately, these are the reasons why these things happen in this movie or in this novel or in this television show. And it's because I want to tell this story. But these movies are not the product of, I think, they're not authored by a single person, which is fine, but they're actually

authored by our collective desire to have Star Wars in our lives. Okay, because I feel like you and Andy often talk about the concept of fan service. Very often that comes up. What is your kind of position on it, though? Because I know it always varies in how it's delivered or, you know, some situations. Well, you know, I think that that is a positive thing for the person making the art to be like, well, I'm doing this, not because it's for me. I'm doing it for them because they're the reason this exists.

I got to say, though, I think you would probably expect me to be like, fuck fan service, and I think that's bad for art. No, I did not think you'd say that. I would think you would say a completely complicated thing where you're going to basically say something that I can't anticipate. Well, I don't necessarily think that there's that much of a difference between, say, fan service and any kind of adaptation. I think the reason why it's become fan service is because so much of what we see now

is intellectual property that's being remixed. or reimagined for basically business reasons, because it's much easier to sell something that has a baseline of interest or awareness around it than it is to say, here's a completely new and original story. Now, there's like a really interesting interview that just came out a couple days ago on deadline where Quentin Tarantino was talking about how

this has been a great movie year because it was a last stand for like original storytelling in the theaters. And against things like Star Wars and the Avengers, you still had stuff like Knives Out and Parasite and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood and Marriage Story and Irishman and all this stuff that was like, you know what,

people will still turn out or go to Netflix or whatever to watch these original stories. Why does he think this is the last stand, though? I mean, it could be. It feels like that is ending, but it's harder and harder to find those movies in the theater

is what he thinks. And I think he thought, like, given the title wave of attention that's paid to these major IP superhero or sci-fi dramas that are franchises. It's harder and harder and harder to say you guys should go see Knives out. You know, what is odd, though, is that does not sound what you're describing, to me at least.

That doesn't sound like fan service. That sounds like what I would say would be a kind of fan exploitation. Absolutely. So fan service to me, not to like, too like semantic about this, but that to me seemed to suggest the motive is positive. because it's it's like the assumption that what people want should be what they are given. What you're describing is like fan service happens

because it allows people a almost a safer way to make a successful movie. You know, you make a remake of Dukes of Hazard or whatever. It's like people at least know what it is. Like, you know, I don't think that movie did well. It's 10 years old now or whatever. but it's like it's you don't have to explain it. There's nobody who's not going to see it because they don't know what it is.

Yeah, to me, I think fan service is like when you have a preexisting relationship with something and rather than telling a story that you think makes sense, you are doing things to satisfy people's yearnings for certain things to happen. The reason why Last Jedi was such a controversial movie in some ways is because it asked a couple of really tough questions about what people thought about Starkey. Wars, whether or not having the force was a birthright of a basically royal family or something that could happen to anybody. Do they answer that question?

Yes. And the answer is? The answer is you need to be special, although it's not 100% that. It's like the microchlorians. Yeah, but it's essentially that there are like a few very special families that can marshal this thing. Now, it doesn't mean that there aren't other people who have the force or that can't be trained in the ways of the force or whatever.

But I think what Last Jedi did was when she's sort of saying like, you know, this major thing in her life is who her parents are. And finally, at the, towards the end of the movie, Kylo tells Ray, your parents are no one. They're just junk traders. You're not special. That that somehow. But she does have it. She does have it. So it's a genetic spiritual force that can also happen in nature.

Yeah. And also like other people seem to be able to get it too. Like I'm not trying to, I don't want to be like too blanket statement about it. But the reason why people were like, God damn it, Last Jedi, some people were like that, was because it said the force isn't bestowed upon like special people. It's just kind of random. And also that maybe being a Jedi was destructive. Hmm.

Hmm. And that having that kind of power is ultimately corrupting. Hmm. People do not like that. And then Rise of Skywarker comes along. And while there is like some points where it's like, oh, no, maybe Ray's going to be bad. ultimately find out she was special. She is able to join the Skywalker family for the most part

and that the force is like something, the Jedi Knights are a force for good in the world. Yeah, because I think it was, I think it was Kevin Smith. He had this theory that it's like, the reason it's called Rise of Skywalker's because Jedi's are going to end and now Skywalker's are going to be the new thing. They never get to that.

That was a good idea. They maybe should have asked him about that. Maybe, you know, I sat next to him at the premiere. Oh, really? Yeah, he was pretty. fired up about the movie, though. You know, he really did impact a huge shift in the way Star Wars is considered. You think so?

Well, because you know what I said, Erwin, I was from 1990 to 1994 when I was in college, we really made fun of people who were into Star Wars. And in clerks, when they have that comedic discussion about the Death Star, I was, I very much remember being like, I can't believe this is in a movie. Like, it was weird to me to see that in a movie. about like, you know, and I think that really altered things. And, you know, his film career, you know, you can kind of say what you will about it, I guess. But I think what he did for the thinking about that kind of movie, particularly that movie, but that kind of film and sort of his life as a public speaker has been fascinating.

Like, it's just, if anybody, maybe I've told you this, like, you know, there's. Here's a clip. You can find it on YouTube. That's where I listen to it, where he talks about meeting Prince to make a documentary about Prince. Oh, I never saw this. Well, it's just him talking. It's a 20-minute story.

It's one of the best stories I've ever heard in my life. Really? It is so interesting. It is extremely illuminating about Prince. It's really rich in detail. Like, you know, his ability as a storyteller, I think completely usurps his ability as a story. filmmaker. There's another video on

YouTube where he tells this really long story about working on the fourth diehard movie. I've listened to that one too about Bruce Willis and all this weird stuff. And trying to like get like trying to do make, he's working on the dialogue in there and he's doing like rewrites on that diehard movie and all

of the competing forces between the studio and Bruce Willis's perception of himself and what he can and can't happen in this movie because it helped but he can also make things happen. Yes. Like he can make a phone call and everything will change. Right, but he also is like,

this guy can't be cooler than me, so you have to take out three lines of good dialogue and stuff like that. But it is actually a fascinating portrait of like Blockbuster movie. And he's really willing to tell those stories. I am sure it has negatively impacted his ability to continue.

I don't know, but I think it's actually like come back around now where it's been like now there's like this like sort of appreciation of candor and transparency that, you know, sort of in the, after the podcast and vlog revolution of where everybody's like, I want to hear real shit. I don't want it mediated by like how a publicist decided I should hear this.

Sure. He is definitely like, whatever he's losing out on not being able to be like thought of as a maybe viable filmmaker, which he still is, but isn't maybe directing Batman. He still makes up for it by the fact that he can probably go tell stories for the rest of his life. Oh yeah. There's another documentary about the attempt to make the Nicholas Cage, Superman, you know. He's in it. He's great.

and he like he at one point was working on the script and like he was he just talks about like the things people came to him and wanted him to do like they were like you know when he's in the fortress of solitude that's he's like there's nothing else going on can you like put some like polar bears outside guarding it and he's like well it is called the fortress of solitude but i guess i can you know it's like he's really good about stuff like that um there was one thing else i wanted to talk to you about uh have you seen this Netflix series Don't fuck with cats No Okay Now I want to say right now This is not like saying Spoiler alert

I'm saying that I can't think of a limited series I have liked as much That I am Very nervous about telling people to watch This might be the first time It's ever happened Because

My wife watched a little bit of it And was like It's too traumatizing I can't watch it I wasn't gonna watch it Okay Like my wife heard about it From a friend of ours

I think. Is it a... It's three episodes. No. It's documentary. Okay, it's a documentary. And it's three parts and it does involve animal torture. Now, the torture is never on screen.

The torture is describe what happens and you see it right up to the point before it happens. So to be totally honest, I feel like I saw this thing. Like, I didn't act. I can't access. the memory visually, but it was so close. Like, it's, I, I was almost worried to tell people just because, you know, I said, this is real interesting, but I feel like they could watch this and come back to me and be like, we're not friends anymore.

Right. Because I didn't anticipate this because animal torture is just different. But this series is not really about animal torture. What this series is about is an individual who makes videos of him doing the terrible things to cats. And the people who decide, we're going to get this guy because you don't fuck with cats, okay?

And these characters, these people, I don't know if I've ever seen this kind of personality in a television show. In some ways, what they are is the most positive possible depiction of what is, what is viewed as like the most negative aspects of Reddit.

Okay. So like in terms of like people coming together over a shared obsession or a shared passion point. It starts with this woman in Las Vegas. She does, I believe, security for casinos. But she basically lives online. She's one of these people who has a job, but her life is online.

And she sees this video. And they're like, you can't, you don't know who the person is. You can't see his face. You don't know where it's happening. Like this guy uploaded it to YouTube or something? Yeah, like one of these things. Okay.

There's another guy in Los Angeles. He's another prime character. He sees this as well. And a Facebook group is created to find this person. So the first thing they have to do is locate where in the world this happened. One point they think it's in Russia or whatever. How do they do this? By taking the image of the room and studying the wall outlets.

by studying information on a small corner of a table. The make of a vacuum is used in part of this torture. Like the make of this vacuum where it is sold. Then when they sort of isolate where it's happening, they figure out that the person who's doing this seems to realize he's being followed and is intrigued by it and seems to almost be contacting these people and is contacting these people.

And then if you're going to keep watching it, stop listening to me now. But he actually kills someone. Jesus Christ, in real life? Yes. And the murder, you see it pretty much. And it's weirdly, and this is something that just, I think, one of the many compelling things about this, it's less troubling than the animal torture somehow. It really does show how weird our minds work and how we sort of perceive helplessness and agency and all these things.

because, you know, it also struck me that, like, I've seen people murdered fictional and non-fictionally, basically, well, I haven't seen a lot of murders, non-fiction, but bodies and stuff, thousands of times to the point where I have been desensitized to it in a way that I was not prepared for this cat stuff. And then it's, so then it's like the attempt. And this story, this happened in, I think, 2012, I felt a little embarrassed. I don't remember this story. A lot of it happens in Canada.

And maybe that's part of the reason why. But it is just, it is a, in some ways you could argue that this is the internet at its absolute best. These are people who solve a crime essentially. Together. Yeah. Together through just their own intellect and their willingness to share information. But then another part is like, the internet is why any of this happened. Because this person had a place to put this.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And an understanding that there was a demand for it. And that this incredibly sort of depraved desire that people have is not just in him, but in all of these sort of casual people around the world who just want to see these, like, beyond faces of death stuff. Sure. If somebody watches this, it is impossible not to really think about how the Internet has changed. change the world in these sort of unexpected ways.

And yet, I got to say again, I feel very nervous about telling anyone to watch it because it's like... Is it because it's so disturbing? So disturbing and so it's like, I don't want to know that this exists. I'm interested in the story. But I don't want to know... I'm not going to describe what he does to these cats. But you could go back and not know about this, would you be fine? Yeah.

Would it be fine? Well, would you be like, do you wish that you could go back and have not seen this? Oh, no. Then I wouldn't be talking about this podcast. It's definitely, like, instructive and interesting. And, you know, does all of the things that you want a documentary to do in a way. And, you know, in its relationship to, I know that there's sort of been a heightened awareness now about sort of the trouble with true crime or whatever, you know.

And I can certainly see someone in that camp being like, this is what happens because of this. Like, you know, at the end of this three-part series, the woman in Vegas and the guy in L.A., like they're basically saying, you know, they kind of talk to the camera and be like, we were concerned about making this documentary because we're actually giving this guy what he wanted. The guy, the guy. Yeah. also like this person was obsessed with the movie basic instinct okay and that uh played into his psychosis in a real heavy way and but what they're saying when they talked to the camera is like we didn't know if we should do this because like you know we're giving this guy what he wants

but you for watching it are somewhat complicit in this experience like your interest in our telling of this story so it's narrated by the people who found this guy yeah there is no voiceover, yes. So it's... Did they make the show? Somebody came to them. Okay. They had to have.

I mean, like... And are they aware of... But they're involved. Like, the two main characters, the degree to which, like, to the degree to which they're involved in this is pretty heavy. You couldn't have made it without them. Right.

Okay. You know. Is it, is the show itself aware of the extra textual stuff that you're talking about? Very. Really? Oh, definitely. Okay.

I mean, like, like, the, it is obvious that, when the people were making this, they were like, okay, we got a real problem here. This is based around something that is nauseating and is just like the most repellent thing. So how do we get through this to get to what is really the interesting part of this, which is can crimes essentially be solved by like a person working remotely? Yeah. Just like sitting in their chairs. law enforcement. Yeah.

You know, so it is, I would not say that it is, I wouldn't say it's, that they're exploiting this. I know some people who watch it. Well, like, like, it's a, I have noticed in fact that considering how often these type of things are written about and talked about, there has been a lack of discussion about this. Yeah. Well, I think that there's like a probably a reticence to even just sort of come

commemorate it in headlines. You know what you mean? Like animal cruelty is not something that you get a lot of like hits for. I mean like it's where even even if you're just like saying like, let's have a conversation about like the stuff that this is actually about, not necessarily about what happens to these cats. You kind of can't get around that roadblock.

You have to sort of address it. Yeah. I mean, I don't. It's a hard thing. It's like even talking about it in this situation. I'm like so am I in some ways promoting. But you know what's kind of interesting though? Like oh, because here's the thing.

It's like is. Is it possible that someone will watch this series and then actually take the complete opposite view and be like, I'm going to do this then. I'm going to be the kind of person who does this. Right. You know, I don't know. But like, would it be better to just pretend it never happened? I don't know. It's pretty rare to recommend something that you don't recommend.

It is. You know, like, I think I only did that once in the last year where I was pretty excited by this show that was on Amazon called Tool to DoEy. young. And it was like this, this Nicholas Wending Reffin show that Miles Teller was in, that it was like this incredibly slow, probably the most gory, violent thing I've seen on like, quote unquote television ever in terms of like when there is violence, it is so bloody and so operatic and so almost exploitative that I, for some reason, I felt like I was like, I didn't want it to be like, this is a bit that I like this, because I actually did think it was absolutely gorgeous

and unlike anything else that was on television and like really challenging in terms of my attention span, but also made me ask a lot of questions about like, why do I need stories to be told in a certain way now when it seems like when I was growing up or when I was first getting into art and movies, I was open to all these different kinds of narrative experiences and all these different kinds of storytelling techniques.

And now I'm really like, I feel like when I ever, there's any deviation from any sort of rhythm that I like in storytelling, I get very annoyed. And this show, while almost impossible to watch, I thought people should watch. But it was strange to recommend something where I was like, you're probably not going to like this. And even if you like parts of it, parts of it are going to be too grotesque to actually watch. Like literally you're going to have to skip ahead 10 seconds past certain scenes. And you realize that's so rare.

That's so rare in any kind of. of like quote unquote mainstream entertainment to have something that challenging in that way. Yeah. You know, like Uncut Gems should be that, but I feel like Uncut Gems is like essentially just like a crazy day in New York movie. What do you mean?

How is Uncut Gems like that? Because it has elements of it that are where they're pushing it to the limits in terms of like how loud it is or how bankrupt the characters might seem at certain points. And certainly I don't want to talk about like the ending for people who haven't seen Uncut Gems,

but it's not a happy ending. But I feel like it's tonally kind of like a bit, just enough removed from the action and the characters and turns the volume down just enough to make it palatable to administer your audience. And then also you have the whole Kevin Garnett NBA gambling aspect to it, which makes it feel like kind of a sports movie.

Yeah, I mean, at times, I thought that they handled the sports stuff in there exceptionally well, like the language. Right. You know, like, in a way... But there's a version of... Like, Gem's nice that could have been even more abrasive. Well, sure, sure. I mean, I didn't...

Like, that reaction is not the reaction I had to that movie. It didn't feel that extreme to me. Sure. But even like the other... Or like, the movie or the thing you just described or, like, you know, telling someone they should... You got to... You know, if you're a film the story and you got to watch The Last House on the Left or something... It's still fiction.

Okay, that is, you know, and my, you know, my natural inclination or my natural sort of the way I think about these things is that, well, this is one of the things that, one of the purposes fiction serves, that you can access these horrific things. Yeah. And you know it's not real. And that, that if, you know, if you're watching American psycho or something and you're like, well, these ideas are horrible, it's like, yeah, but this is a fake person. having these the ideas. And I think most people, the overwhelming majority of people, and particularly people who are not like film critics, people who just watch a film, they can make that separation. When I saw this thing, I was like, well, this is real. Like, it's different. Have you ever had that experience with another documentary or true

crime television show? Or trying to think of things like, well, and this is, also the like, I don't know, the absurd part of it, how come I've never thought this about true crime stories where a bunch of people get murdered? Right. Like somehow that does, like that's not as hard as I never been, yeah, yeah, like one of the best things, um, I saw on television, I guess it'd be last year. 2019. Yeah. And I'm pretty sure it was on Netflix, was this series and no one saw a thing. Did you see this?

I never heard of this. Okay. So do you just like troll Netflix for like disturbing documentaries? Well, this one is, it's, it's not as disturbing as it is just kind of bizarre. Okay. In the early 1980s,

in Missouri, a small town in Missouri, there was a guy who the town perceived as essentially a bully, a menace. He was the mean. this guy in town. And they all got together in, like, the bar, and they told the local cop to get out of town,

and they all shot the guy. And then when the authorities came, no one saw a thing. In the 80s? And 60 minutes covered it. So there's this great footage from the time. Okay. Now, here's a situation where a person was murdered in cold blood, essentially. by a group of people.

It was like, you know, a mob killing of this guy. And nobody ever went to jail. Nothing ever happened. He was, the guy was with his wife. They just took the wife out of town. And, like, one guy in the documentary, he actually says, like, the mistake they made was that they should have killed the wife, too, because, you know, like it's, you know, who says that?

Well, there's a guy in this. There's a one great character in this. He reminds me of a lot of people I knew growing up. It's like, he wasn't involved with the shooting, but. he knows everything about it and boy he wishes he was sure you know and then his son is in it as well and his son talks about it

it's just this real interesting crime case where somebody was killed consciously and then nothing ever happened you know I have no problem recommending that to anyone in fact I would say of the two

I would say watch that one before the cats one it's better in kind of every possible way Okay. And that's pretty weird. It's pretty weird that like the idea of this, you know, execution of a private citizen does not alarm me the way what they did to these cats bothers me. And I don't get it. I don't understand why.

I'm not like some crazed animal lover. I don't think you would perceive me as the kind of person who'd be involved with PETA or something like that. I'm not like that. You know, I came from a place where, like, we own cows and we ate those cows. Like, I remember one time hanging out with my dad and my brothers and the kind of like the butcher guy came over. And we all kind of were sitting around. I must have been four or five or whatever. And they're just kind of talking about, like, the local high school and sports and stuff like that.

And then the guy goes like, well, okay. And he walks in, walks up to a cow and bam, she shoots it in the head. And that's the, we butchered that cow. Right. So it's not like I'm a person who cannot accept the idea of this happening, but it was odd to watch this. Well, it sounds like what all this is disturbing you, the more is the internet side of it, too. Well, the internet, I felt this was kind of instructive about that. Like, you seem to be saying, like, this guy wouldn't have done what he did if he didn't have a place to put it.

I don't think this guy would have done this, like shot it on videotape and made bootleg copies of this and sent it around. I don't think that would have happened. No. I do think that the internet had you exist for this to happen, but that can't be really an argument for like the internet shouldn't exist. It just kind of really clearly, like maybe to, maybe is the, maybe the highest degree of proof of something that we all kind of know in a small way. Right. Yeah. Right. We should, I want to wrap up by talking about something much more upbeat. Okay. We got to figure it out. We can't end with animal cruelty and the depravity of the internet. Tell me something else that you've been seeing recently that you've been enjoying.

Oh, we've been watching, man, my wife and I've been watching that show, Work and Progress. Oh, yeah, right. Yeah, tell me about that. Well, I've seen the first few episodes. Tyler Parker, who's works, you know, people have seen in like Take Hunter and stuff like that. He's, he makes a cameo in that show. And apparently, in the funniest scene that I have. Yeah, it's a show on Showtime, Abby McElney.

I wasn't even sure what the main actress's name is. And this isn't like the perfect description of it, but it's a little bit like Curb Your Enthusium, a little bit like the L word. And also like exceedingly modern. Like the issues and the identity issues they're dealing with are things that would have been unheard of to hear discussed on television five years ago. Yes. You know, so, so that's part of what makes it interesting, just sort of like it's just like the acceleration of modernity in this thing. But this main person, she's really funny and charming and, and she has problems in this

that I can't relate to in any way. And at the same time, I kind of sympathize and empathize with this character, even though they're so specifically unlike my life, it's, it kind of is a testament to I guess the way she delivers this information. Yeah. Yeah, I thought that the stuff that I've seen, the thing you said about modern life, I mean, like there's also a certain way in which she interfaces with the world

that is always at this sort of like low level of despair and anxiety, but is not played in a highly emotional way. That is like very, very relatable and also I think very representative of like 2019, 2020. Sort of. It's almost like she is a suicidal person in an unemotional way, I guess, to, you know. I thought we were going to end on an upbeat note. I'm trying to think of anything else that I've been watching that's been more positive, but like, it's mostly like stuff like that in sports.

Yeah. Well, these sports is positive. That's true. Yeah. Mark, Fultz played great last night. Triple double. That's not positive. Well, but in a way, it validates your early belief.

Yes, I always thought that he, if you could put it together, that he would be a really good player. It's too bad. It's really too bad. I get so many text messages from people being like, see your boy, see this happening. It just sucks. Chuck, thanks so much for coming on the watch.

My pleasure. Don't fuck with cats. A tentative recommendation from you. Yeah, it's like, it's good, but don't watch it, maybe. Okay. We'll be back on Monday. Thanks for listening. Thank you.