The Watch - ‘Space Force’ Isn’t Sure What It Wants to Be. Plus, ‘Top Chef’ and Elwood Reid on ‘Barkskins’

Episode Date: June 9, 2020

We recap last week’s episode of ‘Top Chef’ in which the contestants head to Italy to hunt some truffles (4:32). Netflix’s new splashy comedy ‘Space Force' isn’t sure if it wants to be mean like ‘Veep’ (23:26) or comforting like ‘The Office’ (32:15). Plus, author Elwood Reid joins the show to talk about his new TV series, ‘Barkskins’ (47:36). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Elwood Reid Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me on the other line, as always, is my friend Andy Greenwald. Andy, what is up, man? Hey, my friend.

How are you? I'm all right. How are you doing? I'm okay, man. Last week, we did not do a show. As everybody who's a subscriber or anxiously awaits two middle-aged men's updates on Top Chef, we'll no doubt have felt that absence in their life. Andy and I wanted to take last week and just kind of take a step back.

Obviously, I think we were honestly odd and also just really wanted to process and participate in what was happening last week in our own ways. And we didn't really feel like the show really had a purpose while all that stuff is going on, which is not to say that it is stopped. I think it will be with us for a long time. and I think that I am hopeful that we will live in a better or more just world because of it. But we still have a show to do. It's still a show that's largely about our relationship to pop culture and our relationship to each other. So we're going to continue to talk about both of those things. But I'm sure the show will reflect different things as we go forward.

Greenwald, what do you want to add here? Just basically to say, you know, we have the enormous privilege of talking for a living. We get to talk to each other. We get to talk to all of you. and I think that Chris and I both felt it was extremely important to take some time off and listen. I think approaching anything that one does with humility is key always. And last week was an incredibly searing one, incredibly traumatic and stressful week for a lot of people, for a lot of Americans. Ultimately, it's left me feeling a little bit hopeful, which, you know, maybe I may be too sentimental.

I don't know. but to see a sea change in the culture and in the country and to see people out in the street protesting peacefully, to see the coalition of like-minded people, especially young people who are banding together and responding and listening to racial justice in this country. And it's been really moving and it's been really humbling. And as Chris said, we mostly just talk about TV. That's really not going to change, but I think, you know, speaking for myself and I think Chris agrees with me, we strongly feel that Black Lives Matter. We believe that if we have the privilege of a platform like we do, like we would do with this podcast, that we have to think about how we use it. And, you know,

what we talk about does matter. Because this isn't just an external issue that's out in the streets. This is in everyone's lives. And I think what's made me feel a little bit more optimistic is the way people seem to be internalizing it. I mean, externally expressing themselves, which is incredible and awe-inspiring, quite frankly, but asking tough questions to themselves. And, you know, all we can do as your longtime pals and podcast hosts is to continue to hold ourselves to that same standard. And we know you'll let us know how we're doing. But we also still want to keep talking about Top Chef and all the other shows that we may have missed last week. We have an interview that we banked previously with our

old friend of the pod, Elwood Reed, whose new show Barkskins premiered a couple weeks ago. I hope people are starting to check that out. So while our table of contents is, you know, business as usual, because we love doing the show with each other and for you guys, I don't think anything is as usual in this country at the moment. And I think that's a good thing. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Just to reiterate what Andy said, I mean, Black Lives Matter, justice for Brianna Taylor, justice for George Floyd. It's going to be, it's going to be quite a summer. And, you know, we'll talk about, things where we feel like we have something to add and we'll get out of the way when we feel like that's the that's the appropriate way to deal with stuff so we can get into um what we usually

talk about on Mondays which is apparently unbelievably top chef because that's uh that's how we get down so yeah we have this we want to talk about top chef we're going to talk a little bit about space force um for the rest of the week i think i would really like to talk about i may destroy you on Thursday, which is a show that just premiered on HBO on Sunday that I highly recommend. And I think we'll have a bunch of stuff coming up. There's a just the TV, the TV pipeline is not slowing down anytime soon. So we have a lot of stuff to cover. Let's get into Top Chef, though. That was a heartbreaker. I was sort of hoping we could pivot into something more uplifting. You really, you fucking hate to see it. So obviously, spoilers for last Thursday's episode of Top Chef,

which was the first episode outside of set outside of Los Angeles. It was, they took it to Italy. It opened with a lovely tribute from Tom Colicchio about,

about what Italy has gone through with COVID. It's just keep on coming. And then it got into the episode. And I feel like early on, it was kind of seated that either Gregory was going to go home or Gregory was going to pull off

the greatest triumph over injuries since Willis Reed walked back onto the Madison Square Garden floor. And it was the former, not the latter. This was the flu game, but the shot clanked off the rim. This was so painful to watch, but it actually, it's funny that, you know, this is the year because there aren't any sports, that the Top Chef as sports analogies have really started flowing. And it's certainly, you know, it's been filling a gap in a lot of people's lives. The reason why I'm not extremely salty about this. Salter. Salterier, I was trying to say saltier than

the bitterness in her ridicio. This was, Gregory, clubhouse favorite, not only for us in terms of sentiment, but clubhouse favorite in terms of, with the exception of Melissa, it seemed like he was far and away the best chef on this season. I mean, watching him and watching Melissa this season

has been electrifying and thrilling. And for all, not just in terms of the level of competition, which has just been fierce. And we were talking about what Gregory did on Last Chance Kitchen, volunteering to just go up against Kevin, just because, because that's how he rolls. But also, you know, the two together seem to embody the next generation of Top Chef in that they were able to draw from their own cultural histories and upbringing and channel it into this brilliant, dazzling, technically flawless but also deeply soulful cuisine. They are the top chef winners that we want to see in the world for any number of reasons. I'll say that, though, that the reason why I'm not, here we go, I got it, I found the analogy,

why I'm not as bitter as the Radicchio in Stephanie's pasta. You were fishing, and you know what? You finally caught a bite. You bought me some time there, which I really appreciate, is because of the injury game. If you are a sports fan, you understand that sometimes, luck will just bite you in the ass. If someone gets hurt at the wrong time, if someone has to leave the field,

if a generally solid quarterback is throwing up in the huddle in the fourth quarter of the Super Bowl, I'm just pulling hypotheticals out. For like a random example, yeah. That's just why you play the games, and that's why sometimes things don't work out as they ought to.

And to read Gregory's Instagram post this week, which I recommend everyone ever goes ahead and everyone should go do it. He's a great follow. he was really, really candid. And he was like, it was much worse than what you saw. He was basically like, I had back issues. Back issues for a long time.

I manage it through a very particular regimen. A regimen I wasn't really able to keep up while on top chef. And the night before we went to Italy, I threw it out. And so I was barely walking. I was getting cortisone shots like every other hour. And like all the chefs, you know, once they found out they were going to Italy, he prepared some stuff, like some ideas, some flavor combinations in anticipation of having to just pull something out of his ass when he got there.

And he was running through his mental rolodex, and he was like, I have a wild boar dish that I was going to cook in Italy. And I have no idea if truffles go in this, but it's the only one I can physically make. And so I'm just going to have to do it and live with the results. And so I think that's probably why,

painful as it was in all senses, he did walk or hobble out with his head held high because he knew that was all he was capable of doing. One of the major sources of excitement and drama around Top Chef is how so frequently it can not be a cumulative competition. So one of the reasons why I'm so disappointed to see Gregory go home is not only was he probably my favorite chef on this season, but he also was playing Top Chef. He was building whether or not it matters in the end.

I cannot imagine that the judges do not take into consideration a resume of accomplishments over the course of a season in certain ways, but I know that, like, ultimately you're judged by dish to dish. But Gregory was playing Top Chef. Gregory's execution of Restaurant Wars will go down probably, will be as memorable as whoever wins Top Chef this season, I think. No question. And Gregory's facing off with Kevin in Last Chance's Kitchen when Kevin was like,

all the remaining chefs you guys choose, and it was like, oh, nobody wants to get embarrassed, nobody wants to get sucked into this. And Gregory was like, I'll do it. I'll face Kevin. I, if he's going to come back in, it's going to be through me. So I thought all that stuff was was pretty incredible. And, you know, this is this.

I personally can't remember a situation like this. I mean, it happened a little bit with Karen and Last Chance Kitchen where she, I think, was starting to have like some ankle problems. And I think she also had maybe a back or a hip issue. But she actually won the last chance kitchen, I think, where she had started to, to face those issues. I can't remember a physical injury. pretty much taking someone out of the competition. Can you?

There have been times, my memory, I mean, you've watched more seasons more recently than I have. There have been examples of chefs cutting themselves at the wrong time. You know, there's never a good time, but like needing to get a medic and work. Does that actually, that's happened? It has happened. Never to a degree where I think that led to an elimination. I think it's happened in quickfires and things like that. There have been people getting overheated. Leanne was pregnant and had altitude issues when she was back in Colorado season.

Yeah, yeah. But in terms of just a straight up, like, just injury at the wrong time, I'm having trouble thinking of one. And I would also say the elimination challenge itself was kind of a bummer. And the reason why I think the truffle one. And I'll say why. Like, generally, you pick up these chefs. And in past seasons, the end of the season has occurred. And then an indeterminate amount of time has passed before they gather the finalists and fly them to the location.

And you can tell because they have fresh haircuts and they've been thinking. about stuff or whatever. I could be wrong, but this seemed like it was the first time they ever just put them to, took them to the LAX and just got them out of there. And I think that the scheduling of the season, yeah, the scheduling of the season has been different. Probably one of the, you know, when you have newbies coming on, you can just keep them around. When you have returning people coming back, they're not willing to be gone for six weeks. So that's why there was that last chance kitchen turnover midway when people were dismissed, I think. But anyway, regardless, when you uproot people, you know, they're jet lag. There's different equipment. There's a language issue.

They're just in a different environment, so they're a little bit off their game. So the Apparitivo challenge was weird because very few of them did what you're supposed to do. Like, Stephanie had the best idea, even though she didn't execute it, which is just like a little fried sandwich. Because that dude in the beginning is like, something to eat in one hand. I'm not going to do an accent. I promise I wouldn't do an accent. I thought this too. When he was like, Aparativo is supposed to be this thing you have in one hand while you have a beer in the other hand.

And everybody is like, here's my consummate. Yeah, here's my smoked shellfish in a tiny tureen. It's like, okay, so already you could tell they were all a little bit not bringing in their A game. But the truffle thing was just an insane botch because, as they said, as these, you know, interesting truffle hunting, you know, boulevard ear guys that were the judges were making quite clear, a white truffle isn't a pantry ingredient. A white truffle is literally gilding the lily. A white truffle is something you shave on top of something to transform it and to elevate. to showcase one of the most expensive ingredients in the world. You don't cook with it.

And so they're asking these guys to show their stuff with something they're not supposed to cook with. And so this idea that they were all just like folding it into this and folding it into that and putting it on top, just was ridiculous. Like someone was like, I'm not just going to make egg noodles. You should have. Like that would have won.

If someone had just made pure pasta with butter and shave truffles over it, you know those Italian dudes would have been kissing their fingers. have been like, ah, intelligent. But first of all, can I say when they went out to go hunt for the truffles? Yeah. What are the chances the truffle hunter dudes are like friends of Don Minu from zero zero zero? I was really excited that maybe the dogs would accidentally... Don Minu seems like the kind of guy who knows a truffle hunter. You know what I'm saying? What I'm saying is what if the dogs accidentally went to Don Minu's bunker? And they're like, guys, these cameras have to come off now. Like, that was very close to happening as well.

So it's just that that's the only bit of unfairness that's there, which was that Gregory made clearly a great and smart dish. It was just inappropriate for this challenge. And in fact, I think all of their dishes were kind of inappropriate for this challenge. I mean, even Melissa's, which was the smartest because she took again, she took her point of view and she basically made a risotto, but an Asian version of it, a kanji. And then, you know, the Michelin Star chef who was on the judge. judging panel was just like, the salami was an abomination. Okay, fine, you win. Yeah. Like,

it was, it was worrisome. And the reason it was worrisome, here's my hard pivot into my big concern troll for where we're going in this finale. First of all, let me just say, I love Brian Voltajia. I don't know where a guy like that gets a Seth Rogen laugh. I don't know what, where he, where that he derives that culturally, but it's a wonderful thing. Big fan. Seems like a great guy. Huge talent. He learned Russian in high school? Okay, that was a little suss. That was a little odd.

But the thing about him, it's not fair. I mean, the casting and the way the roles people play, he is a deserving Top Chef champion should he become the winner. But the way that the season has gone, he's essentially just been big fundamentals lurking in the background. And I guess I would be, I would be a little bit concerned about Top Chef that after an all-star season of, going to use this word again because I think it fits of electrifying diverse talent.

If the winner is the guy who cooks everything, and I'm putting this in quotes, correctly, and just hangs around until everyone else makes a mistake. Well, you know, that was, he was my, he was my Dark Horse pick a couple of weeks ago. And I was like, I actually was picking it sentimentally. Like, I felt like Brian and his presence had been like so kind of like, he, he obviously become like almost a steward for top chef. And I think that in some ways, if you go back to that season six that he was on,

spoiler for season six, where he and Michael are kind of, his brother who competed all the way through the finale of Top Chef season six in Las Vegas. He and his brother are kind of two different ways of being a chef. You know, one is this domineering alpha genius. And the other is I have all the technical skills,

but I'm also, a pretty decent human being. And I try to help people where they can and I want to play fair. You know what I mean? And not to say that, like, I don't really know that much

about Michael before or since. So I'm not trying to, like, cast aspersions. I'm just saying, like, what it was like to watch them on Top Chef. Brian, I think since then, just, you know, this is his third appearance

and it feels like almost it would be like a capstone on a career that's already successful outside of Top Chef. Yeah. I don't see him winning. I think it's Melissa and Kevin now.

But, you know, who knows? I mean, there have been upsets. There have been also like, oh, looks like this guy won or someone who just stuck around has won. There is a world where he wins. It's not that far-fetched. And I think the reason why is because for Melissa to win, she has to push and push and take chances and take risks. And Brian just keeps cooking technically correct food. And it's why he never wins a quickfire because he's not slashy or risky.

You know, he doesn't go for it. But there is a world where Kevin and Melissa self-destruct for whatever reason, because things go wrong and not just physical injuries, but, you know, you make a mistake, a seasoning error, you forget to plate something or whatever. You accidentally buy three different kinds of meat. Three different kinds of meat. I mean, that'll get you. We should take a moment before we move on to say, what a treat, Stephanie.

has been. And it's disrespectful that we haven't even said her name. But I think even she is shocked to still be there. Well, you did. You referenced her bitter ridicio. I did. But I think it's, I think that one of the low-key pleasures of the season was that she's, you know, she did a great job. She's done a great job. And she did hang around and sort of wasn't, you know, stayed in the middle of the pack when she needed to, but she stepped it up when she needed to as well. And apparently executed a great pasta, you know, that saved her for another week. I don't see a world where she wins. I can't imagine she sees a world where she wins either, but it's pretty cool to see someone excel in the way that she has above what, you know,

I think viewers expected of her and maybe even what she expected of herself. She's a really good narrator for the show, too. I think she's obviously an excellent chef, but she's also a really good narrator for the show. And I really appreciate how candid she is and how self-effacing she is. You know, usually when you're on a reality show, any kind of reality competition show, your job is to just kind of constantly, trumpet yourself and trumpet why you should win. And I think she's like, I can win because I have

never gotten this far. So if that was already impossible, like why can't I win this thing? And you know what else? The other thing that's making this show sit really well with me and maybe with many others, you know, whether it's you who have discovering it for the first time this year or others who I've been here heard about anecdotally who were returning after not watching the show for a long time, it's not precious. You know, I've said this many times on this podcast and on other podcast that one of the things I love about cooking and particularly the show is that they've, they kind of follow the same like Ordanian or Changian or whatever ethos that, you know, it's a trade. There's an element of it that allows artistry and ambition, but also you kind of got to execute.

Yeah. I mean, I think that's also like kind of genius of the quick fire and the elimination setup, which is very similar to survivors reward and elimination challenges that they do, although they add in the tribal at the end. But Top Chef Reward, It rewards ingenuity, and it rewards elbow grease. And I think that that's why it feels like it is actually a pretty accurate depiction of someone as a chef. It's just too bad that neither of those things are the things that Gregory failed at. True. But I think that one of the reasons why it didn't feel like a failure is because all of the chefs remaining have a very healthy, all of them at least present a very healthy amount of self-effacement.

You know, they're willing to laugh at themselves. They say that this is not the most important thing in their lives or careers. They know that they're always one bad dish away or one bad cook, and that's just kind of what happens and they're supporting each other. And I think maybe it's because they're veterans. Maybe it's because they're a different place in their career. But that's making this a really, really enjoyable watch because, you know, Melissa is capable of, like, incredible things, for example.

So is Kevin, but neither of them are taking it too too seriously in a way that I think would be off-putting. And then just the final thing about Gregory, it just wants to. again proving what a class act he is, that the last part of his Instagram post, and people should check this out, is he's saying that if he wins fan favorite, which I imagine he's probably on track to do, or at least one of the likely winners, he's going to donate the entire $10,000 cash prize to food banks in communities who have lost people due to police violence. And he's just, and he's just like on to the more important things, which I think is really cool and, you know, can I ask you one question? I know that we probably want to get into Space Force.

really quick, but I wanted to ask you, this might be a can of Warren's question. So if you want to table it for another time on Top Chef conversation, maybe next week, how do you feel, as a long-time Top Chef viewer, about holding the final somewhere else from where the show is set? I'm a fan. Are you a fan, or do you just accept it as like, this is how the show works? Both. I mean, purely as a TV fan, I like it. I think it's exciting. They change it up. I like it best when they take advantage of it and hopefully they will continue to while they're in Italy. I think it was, was it Kentucky that went to Macau last year? And that the moment when they were walking, there was the episode where they were walking in the streets and going to the markets

and seeing the produce and things. Like, I thought that was really exciting because you could see the excitement in the faces of the chefs and be like, this is why we became chefs. Sure. The flip side with Italy is there, it's not only did they go to Italy, they were like, now let's make an entire episode built around white truffles, the 1% of 1% of 1% ingredients. So it felt more like a luxury thing as opposed to like how cool will be to explore this place and take advantage of it. I do like it because I just like that they add a little bit of pomp and circumstance to a show that is, as you said, is a little bit elbow greasy. Well, I mean, you mentioned this in the beginning of the conversation. I was, I was just kind of like,

I remember the last time I flew overseas and your boy would not be able to be folding truffles into anything the next day. You know? I could, I would not be capable. I think like the last time I flew overseas the next day, I think I had like half of a plowman's lunch and then slept until 9 p.m. and then was like writing postcards at 2 a.m. So what of my favorite aspects of the episode was and shouts to everyone's friends at American Airlines. Absolutely. But they like woke them up at 4 in the morning, took them to LAX and then clearly just like staged a fake in flight service before anyone else got on the plane because you can't film that stuff. I don't think you're, yeah, you're not add to, I don't think.

So they had like some giant 6 a.m. meal in the lounge. And then they sat down and just got served brazed beef cheek in red wine reduction sauce. And they're all like, oh, this is great. I love airplane flying. You know that it was like the guy to the left or the person just like right back in Economy Plus or coach. It was like eating a chicken cordon blue that would have been like fired during Friday night light season two and then deep frozen in a cryogenic chamber.

He was just like, what are they eating up there? It's like, shut up. Don't worry about it. That smells good. Yeah. Okay, so let's talk about Space Force. This is a show that I guess came out a week ago, a little bit more than a week ago, and has kind of existed both in my anticipation for it to say that there is any

my processing of it, I think the conversation around it. And even like as something that you and I have texted about or something, if I had to use one word to describe what Space Force is is a curiosity. Yeah. And a very, I would imagine,

which doesn't really affect its quality, a very expensive curiosity, I would have to imagine. I think it does affect its quality. I do think, and other reviewers have mentioned this, comedy can get lost in budget. Expensive things

isn't, it's not always the best choice for comedy. And we talked about this when we, when we, um, briefly, uh, beat up on Avenue 5, where whatever small board delights that were to be found in, in Hugh Lorry and, you know, delivering Armando Yanucci's lacerating dialogue was lost in what was just this enormous, physically and financially speaking, uh, set. And there's a lot of that here. They, money clearly wasn't an object. It's Greg Daniels who brought. the office so successfully to America, long-time comedy writer, recently just did co-created

Parks and Rec and recently just had upload on Amazon, reunited with Steve Carell. There was a blank check for these guys. You know, and maybe there should be getting Steve Carrell back to a comedy show with Greg Daniels. But there does seem to be something out of whack. And I want to preface our conversation by saying, I don't mind this show. I'm not angry about the show. I'm not heated about the show. I've watched the first couple. I'll keep going. Happy it's out there. Totally fine. But there does seem to be a slight disconnect between the expectations and what it was the people involved wanted to make and what they are comfortable delivering. And that mainly comes from the fact that not only is it incredibly high budgeted, but it's also very high concept. And for me,

the weird dissonance at the show is that it kind of wants to be Veep not just because there are some people who were in both shows like Dan Back et all but it kind of has

elements of like high status big budget government satire but it's made by the guys who made the office who clearly don't want to push too hard or too far they want to push too hard.

they want it also to be kind of a lovable workplace comedy. There's a lot of different competing cultural influences in this show. And they're dissonant. Yeah, I mean, I kept getting really taken out. I like you, we'll probably finish this season. I've watched half of it. I made a promise to myself that I was going to at least watch the episodes directed by Dee Reese, which is there's two episodes in the middle of the season.

one is like kind of an internal mole hunt and then there's another one and I was just like the D. Reese who directed Mudbound is directing Space Force like I have to get that far at least and I find myself like completely totally like amused

by this show if not ever like laughing out loud I think that there are a lot of different like you can feel it you can feel when Carter Burwell's score comes on or when the music comes in and you're like that feels like it's from a different show but not so much from a different

show that it is a commentary on different shows, it just feels like that's the score you're using. You know, it's not like an ironic usage. It's not like it's on Adult Swim. Like it's like a Tim Heidecker thing where they're like, hey, we're going to use like 80 sitcom music to kind of offset the brutality or grotesque behavior you're seeing. It's just that's the music for the show. And it's not that I can think of a better alternative, but it's indicative of the competing accents happening in the show. And I think what I was, left with, as we got to like around the mid-season point at least, especially after watching the sort of uncertain steps, but very loud steps of their initial couple of episodes, is how hard it must

be to make a show about bastards and how difficult it must be in the middle of that to change your mind about making a show about bastards. Yes. And it kind of made me think a lot about succession and a lot about those first few episodes of succession, which I don't think were as warmly received as all the episodes that would come afterwards. And Succession never introduces an audience avatar. People may like Shiv, people may identify with parts of Kendall, people may identify with parts of Roman or whatever. But it never really gives you the, I'm a stranger in a strange land.

Cousin Greg is supposed to be that, but he's got his own kind of like, he's not a main character. And yet they stuck to their guns and they stuck to what the show was about. And I think people came around to understanding what it was about. out for the most part. With a show like this, you know, Mark, the character that Steve Carell plays, who's a general getting his own command of a branch of the military, but not the one he wanted, is not a bad guy, I guess, in the realm of this television show. It's not like a great guy. He's not a good guy. I don't know. Part of it, I think, is totally wrong because I just think that there just feels like a little bit of a disconnect between, like, are these really the people we want to be

watching TV shows about right now. And part of it is that it doesn't go too far in satirizing them, I think. And I admire Greg Daniels and Steve Carell for being like, we're going to try and make a human workplace comedy out of people who are working on maybe doing, working on something that maybe a lot of people are like, we don't fucking need this, you know? Well, I think every point you're making is really well taken. And I think the challenge and then ultimately the reward of a show like succession is it doesn't put a human, a recognizable human, into a world of monsters. It gives you a world of monsters and slowly you

begin to recognize shreds of humanity in them, which ultimately is more rewarding and more complicated, I think, in terms of a relationship with a series or any kind of art. This show is a really tough one because it, as you exactly said, it doesn't want to commit all the way. Veep made its people loathsome and then you just kind of reveled in it. The downside of that maybe is there wasn't much, there wasn't a lot of hugs, it wasn't a lot of learning because that's not what that show is about. Mark Naird,

Correll's character here, you know, has some great moments and particularly great moments, you know, when he's, he's okay with sending a murderous chimpanzee to a flaming death in the sun, which came at the end of a,

which I got to say was a really rough sequence because the entire joke, was, I can't tell you how expensive. The CGI monkey stuff must have been. Like, it's just, when I see CGII, like, in Viz Effects, like, I'm aware of how much it costs each shot now. And I just can't believe they spent it on that when you have the funniest people in the world in that room.

Not as well known about you is how much homemade Thanos stuff you've been doing just for, like, Reddit and just for like the fan community, the Marvel fan community, keep Thanos's message alive, keep Thanos's story alive. You joke, but I am passionate about using real animals. on set and not fake ones. But the point being, like, that just seems like... You and David Milch both. Exactly. And it's worked out for both of us long term.

I think that when you have Steve Corell, John Malkovich, Ben Schwartz, Jimmy Yang, all in a room, and the locus of the humor is CGI monkey that's not even in the room. Like, that just seems like a weird use of talent and time and energy. But what I was going to say was, so he has... has, you know, bastard, monstrous tendencies, but nobody wants him to be that. So then he goes home and he stays up late with his daughter helping her with her homework, which is telling us what a great guy he is. And I think that one way to think about that, well, there's two ways that I, to frame this. One is the show only exists because of how brilliant Steve Corre, and beloved Steve Corrella was on the office.

But the office is a really tough act to follow in a lot of ways. But one of the main ways is Michael Scott is America's example of someone who was loathsome, but they came to love anyway? And it's very hard to run that back without risking doing it. They've moved some levers on Michael Scott. Oh, very much so after those first six. No question. As they did with Leslie, nope. I'm saying like that that is not uncommon. No. And so that actually is the segue to the other way I wanted to talk about it, which is, well, one thing, I remember Mike Schur told me this once, and I think I get the number wrong.

I think he said 10. He told me that, you know, all comedies on TV, you should just take the first 10 episodes and throw them in the trash and then assume it starts later because that's when you finally started to figure out how to write the characters and write towards what's working, et cetera, et cetera. You can't do that anymore. Maybe you never should have, but even, you know, but shows used to have more leeway to write themselves out of stuff and sort of settle in and find their audience. But I think it's worth talking about how Space Force is playing just, you know, in terms of

the industry. There was a piece that you and I were reading, and we should draw some attention to, that Mo Ryan wrote in Vanity Fair basically saying, is TV short-circuiting itself with this turn towards shorter runs? Specifically, she's saying a lot of, she lists a lot of beloved moments in shows ranging from friends to loss to Breaking Bad that happened late, you know, season four, season five. And now there is a trend, whether it's because of anthology series or Netflix being like, we just need three and we're out. you know, because then it's in our service forever, that shows just aren't going to live to be, to go on that long anymore. I think it's,

it's, it's maybe more useful rather than thinking about what Netflix wants than to think about what creators want. Because audiences want shows that run for 100 episodes. Like, the main driver of these streaming services is still the office reruns, friends reruns, parks and rec reruns, Gilmore girls reruns or whatever.

Like, this is what people want. They love, to have that huge runway of programming to just sink into and, and let wash over them. People love, you know, they love Breaking Bad too, but it's a very different experience in terms of how you use it and what you're getting out of it. That's what people want. It's not so much that Netflix doesn't want it because I'm sure Netflix would love 10 seasons of a beloved comedy that they owned and didn't have to constantly license from other places. It's that Greg Daniels and Steve Carell don't want to do seven seasons or 10 seasons.

They want to push themselves. They want to do something different. They want to make a serialized, single-camera, ambitious, contemporary comedy that is about doing something over a relatively short period of time that it tracks like a prestige drama, kind of like what Mike Schur did pretty brilliantly with a good place. Yeah. And it's kind of a bummer because I think that what people want from them, and certainly what even I felt I wanted out of the show is.

make a great workplace comedy. Yeah, I mean, I think that there's the consumer aspect of it, and there's a human aspect of it. I think what people want sometimes is to have Steve Carell or replace actor or actress X in that role, is they actually do want that sense of constant companionship that those 200 episode beloved sitcoms can give you, and that there are good episodes and bad episodes

and episodes you may have forgotten you've never seen before, in episodes you've watched 11 times in two months, but that it's the, it goes beyond being a nightlight. It becomes like a sense of like familiarity and comfort to have that show like expand and take up that much time. And that's impossible to replicate in 10 episodes.

You can have like an amazing 10 episode show or season and you're not going to get that feeling of from 2002 to 2008. This was just like something that was always on. and then when it came back into streaming, it became something that was always on. And it's taken up 15 years of my life, actually, like having that in some way part of it.

Now, that's not my relationship to the office, but I know many people who feel that way. I don't think that that's necessarily replicable. Then on the consumer side, what's interesting is that you and I do not really talk a lot about third seasons of shows. And now we are not necessarily the only barometer for that, but I think that we're indicative of a kind of channel surfing mentality

when it comes to shows. that are on. And it's more oriented towards what's new and what's coming up rather than what's in the third or fourth season. And I wonder whether or not that has something to do with it just as much as Steve Carell's disinterest in being tied down to one character for five years. Partly, the other thing that I would add, I think that's probably right. But I would also add to the conversation by saying we are absolutely at an inflection point in the life cycle of streaming television. And up to this point, it's really been driven by attracting new subs and talent with the flashiest way possible. And we've talked many times about how Netflix is

basically underneath the hood operating like Amazon did for the first few years of its existence, which is as long as you show growth, shareholders will forgive massive losses, right, without evidence of profit yet because they're betting on the growth. And so one of the the ways you get growth is you just, you know, throw money at things and get talent and splashy and flashy things to attract people's attention. But what keeps people's attention? And as we are transitioning to a time where Netflix isn't just the hot, flashy new kid, Netflix wants to be a business that is TV for the multiple decades. Yeah. HBO Max is the future play for WarnerMedia. Peacock is the future play for Comcast. They don't want to just get your subs, which they do.

No question. They want you to have a reason to stick around and have a deep bench. to have that repeated audience engagement. And as we're learning during this pandemic, people really are tucking back into the Sopranos. They're tucking back into Mad Men. And that's providing a huge value to them, the wire, you know. And at the ringer, there's a podcast just for people who are rediscovering it or watching it for the first time right now, years,

decade plus after the show went off the air. And so it's worth noting. And obviously we talked about both. so we're not the sample case for this argument. But something like the Knight of on HBO, you know, very high profile, very classy, really entertaining, well-executed show that, or the outsider, unless it gets renewed, which I hope it does, these kind of like splashy, almost Netflix-y things that will then,

will get a lot of attention quickly get people's eyeballs, and then Netflix or HBO hopes they can then, when the last episode ends, entice you to watch something similar. Those things are great. But when HBO, if you put like, you know, gun to their heads, apology for the violent metaphor to the HBO executives, like what's the show that they have or have made that they cannot live without? It's succession.

It is without question succession, because that keeps people engaged. It's keeping them coming back and it's growing. And they control it and they control it now. And they control it in 10 and 15 years after it's long since aired its last episode and people are going to watch it for the first time. And there's a cadence to it. Or there was. I mean, before there was a pandemic.

There was an expectation that succession would come back in August or September of the next couple of years. There would be 10 episodes. It would create like a succession. Now, I mean, by all, I know that succession actually in comparison to lots of shows is not as popular as we kind of make it sound like. But for HBO, what it does is very meaningful. You're right.

Yeah. And the same could be said for insecure and the same could be said for lots. of shows that are on this, like, that HBO has up and running and has like a Sunday audience that is like dedicated and is like, I'm on, I'm logged on, I'm tweeting, I'm talking about it, I'm making podcasts about it, reading recaps, whatever. And maybe Netflix feels that, you know, because they just keep throwing pasta at the wall and a lot of it is sticking, that that can sustain them for a while, or that that idea of longer term engagement can be serviced by queer eye running forever, which I hope it does,

or nailed it. are there other unscripted shows that we don't talk about very often. But I do think that there's going to be a sea change in terms of what these services want to be offering people. Just having the hottest thing. I don't know. I'm sure there's like a wired.com term for this. But, you know, having a flashy anthology series or mini series really gets you a lot of burn

at the top of your user interface or whatever when it's new. Sure. And then it sinks to the bottom. And it's just in your storage loss. or out back. And it's not necessarily drawing more attention to it. It's not sustaining. And I think that's a little more treacherous. So all of this is a really wordy way of saying. I think that I think we're in for a little bit of a turn towards more traditional programming. I think because I well, I mean, I thought you'd be right. But like, you know, you see something like Love Life and I think they were

initially planning on doing three of Love Life and then one a week. And then, you know, according to HBO Max. They were like the demand was such that we decided to basically release the last few episodes will go up on June 11th, I believe. Because that's people. Well, I think also that's reflecting. I think that's smart. You know, if they see any kind of stickiness or engagement, like, give it to him. Yeah. Why not? Speaking of not at all old-fashioned storytelling, should we set up this, this Barkskins chat? Let's go to New France, brother. This is this is a show, man. This is a wild show. I'm a guy You're a simple guy?

I'm a pretty simple guy. I have to admit that I'm I'm not a big fur industry dude. You know what I mean? Okay, okay. Typically in the past, like when I've been confronted

with literature or TV or films set in the colonial fur industry, I've just been kind of like, I'm okay. You know? You miss me with that. Yeah, like, I'm not a pelts guy. You know what I mean?

Barkskins, though, it's it is really getting after that deadwood itch in a lot of different ways in the in the sort of expansive tapestry that the the folks behind the show have woven of I think that there's like 15 pretty major speaking characters introduced in the first episode if not more yeah several of whom seem to be named Lafarge and and you're just like okay that's Lafarge one and then there's Lafarge two and they all love brandy

they all sound like Toronto Maple Leafs defensemen and it's just like a very, very well-written show and it is not for the faint of heart

but it is for the curious of mind I am pretty fired up about this show even though I understand that some of the ways in which it is made feel almost old-fashioned at this point well old-fashioned and also kind of radical and we contain multitudes

a moment ago we're saying we wish that Space Force was a more traditional comedy that ran 100 episodes, we also are fans of and suckers for things that just leave it all out on the field and go for it. Just leave the pelt right there

on the 50 yard line. Use the whole animal though. Yeah. You know, without question. Torell Owens, just putting the pelt on the cowboy star. So for people who don't know what we're talking about,

which may be many, Barkskins is a show that premiered two weeks ago. They're dropping two episodes a week out of, so the whole season will be potentially done next week. It is a National Geographic Nat Geo original drama series produced by Scott Rudin and Eli Bush and based on a recent, a couple of years ago novel by Annie Prue. And it is, as Chris alluded, it is about the Foundings of New France in Quebec and about the collision between the French, the English, and very much the native population who was obviously there at the time.

And it is a breathtaking swing undertaken by a longtime friend of our podcast, Elwood Reid, who has been on in the past to talk about The Bridge, the show that he was co-created or the co-created the American version of and then ran in its second season, the season that I still ride for in love. And he's also worked on The Shy. He has been on to talk about books because we share passions for a lot of American writers. and he is a guy who takes big swings. And there's something about this show that is right up our alley. You know, David Fulis and Marcia Gay-Harden, just, you know, dancing in the light as it hits the maple trees. It's not for everyone. And that's why I think it's, but it's for someone. And I think that's what makes me really excited about the show.

So for people who don't know how to catch up on it, Elwood and I talk pretty spoiler-free, I think, trying to give you a sense of what the show and what his desire to make, you know, why he is motivation for making it, how he made it on set in the wild forests of Quebec, unlike any show had been made before. And it's premiering on National Geographic and the episodes are going right onto Hulu. So if you have a Hulu subscription, you can check it out. You can catch up, I think, through episodes five and six, we'll be up there tomorrow. We're recording this on Monday. It's a pretty special, pretty odd little show. And if you are a fan of the bridge, when I talk about this, a lot of the bridge all-stars are back.

Matthew Lillard is in the... Friend of the pod, Matthew Lillard, Abraham Ben Ruby. It's on one in the best possible way. So I had a great time talking to Elwood,

check out the show, listen to the interview, and we're happy to be back talking to you guys. Yeah, we'll be back on Thursday. We'll take a quick break and get into Andy's interview with Elwood Reed,

and you should check out Barkskins. Today's episode of the watch is brought to you by Peroni. Peroni is the perfect drink to elevate the party next time you see your friends for drinks.

Oh, when will that be? No matter where you are, who you're with, even if you're on your own, Peroni's easy drinking effervescence makes any occasion feel a bit more special. Look, what is time, right? Like, what is Wednesday? What is 5 p.m.? I don't even know anymore. I don't even know what meals are. In fact, I've pretty much broken myself down into a state of constant snacking. And when the time of the day becomes appropriate, your boy likes to crack open a really, really cold Peroni to go along with maybe like, you know, Nut mix I got, some olives, a little salami.

Hell man, maybe it's just some tortilla chips and whatever condiment I can find in my refrigerator. No matter what it is, I'm pretty into the Peroni part of it. Basically what Peroni is, it's delicious as an Apertivo. You may have seen them discuss the concept of Apertivo on Top Chef this week. It's a delicious as an Apertya, and that's the glorious couple of hours spit where you're just embracing leisure in its purest form. And I know that it's been very hard to find time for leisure right now, but if you, if you, you have a moment to take for yourself, I recommend you have an ice cold beer. You have a couple, a handful of nuts. Maybe you get a piece of bread and some cheeses out. Peroni is bold, spirited,

authentically Italian, and effortlessly stylish. Look for Peroni for your next happy hour, or as the Italians call it, Apertivo. Find it in cans and bottles at your local grocery store and follow them on Instagram at Peroni, USA, Peroni, Italia. Whatever you do, do it beautifully. Celebrate responsibly 2020 imported by Beer of Peroni International, Washington, D.C. Well, I'm thrilled to be joined once again, although this time virtually, by Old Friend, Old Friend of the Pod, the creator, adapter, showrunner of the National Geographic Epic Series Barkskins. I would read. Welcome back to the show. It's great to be here. You know, it's funny because you and I talk about books all the time. Every time I hear you guys on the podcast, I hear you lead off a podcast about books, it just warms.

My soul is cold and dark, and it just warms some little portion of it when I hear it. I love it. There's something that's perfect about this, because we have been pivoting hard to books. in this dark chapter in American history. We are all stuck at home with all of our old books. And you, not to blow up your spot, but I believe you are living a full literary life right now because you are not in California. And I think the giveaway is the animal skull behind you.

I was going to say elk, but I don't know. Oh, yeah. For people watching this on video. Oh, yeah, yeah. So tell people where you are and what the vibe is like. I'm in Livingston, Montana. And a couple of reasons you might know the place It's where they film River runs through it.

It's where, you know, Jim Harrison, you know, Warren Oates, Tom McGuane, you know, my friend Walter Kern lives here. There's a lot of weird Hollywood and book world. Jim Harrison was here for a long time. William Yortsberg and Richard Brodigan, if you're into sort of the 70s, trippy, you know, poetry. But I'm here. I was when I first, before I went to Hollywood, I had a small house here. I wrote a lot of my books here.

And so during the pandemic, this felt a good place to retreat to. and I have to admit I'm enjoying myself here. Well, it suits you, and it also suits our conversation of the show, which I kind of want to get into. First of all, congratulations. Thank you. I have no idea how you pulled this off, and it's incredibly entertaining. I don't either. We're talking on a Monday, and I believe two more episodes of the show are going to be available this week, where this interview will come up later in the week.

So by the time you're hearing this, four episodes will be available. I've only seen the first two, so we're going to keep it kind of in that realm. I'm also hoping that people who listen to this interview will not be spoiled and be excited to get started. But so here's kind of how I want to begin. Because this is going to be a broad macro kind of way into this. Because thinking about all the times we've talked and Elwood for people who don't know has been one of the people who sort of has shepherded me in my own transition professionally. I don't know if shepherds.

But yeah, yeah. Nudged encouraged to jump off a cliff. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Which I appreciate. And some people would have been like I'm standing here with a nudge. net, and thankfully you weren't one of those people, and I jumped anyway, it seems to me, and

correct me if I'm wrong about this, or if you feel that I'm wrong about this, there are two things at work in Hollywood are for writers, right? There is, one, the subject matter or the style that interests and inspires and motivates the writer. That's category one. Category two is the subject and story that a major multinational corporation is going to fund. And 80% of the job of the job of a writer in Hollywood is trying to thread that very delicate needle, find a way for themselves to exist within the framework of something that someone will fund. And, you know, you've had a long and varied career. You've worked on procedurals. You worked as longtime readers of me and my particular obsession know, you worked on FX's The Bridge, which you were the showrunner. And I've read,

I've been lucky enough to read some of your work that has yet to be made. And so I think I have a pretty good sense of the kind of stuff you like and tends towards the odd and, you know, more personal. This story is just wild because this is a adaptation. It is about colonists in New France, which is now Quebec, right? In the 18th century? It's 1670s to speak to it. 17th century. And it is all the way out there. And yet this has Scott Rudin producing it. This is a national Geographic, mega epic series, and you landed this plane. So before I continue to talk for the remainder of our time together, can you just talk me through how this happens? How do you find your voice within this larger story that can then be signed off on? Because I'm just, even before we

get into the story, I can't believe you pulled this off. Is that a polite way of saying that I have super commercial taste and interest? Is that what you're saying? I was sort of dancing around it, but yes, yes, you are essentially a basic. Yeah, yeah. You know what it is? It's like you forgot with the third thing, which is fear. Like, as I've gotten older as a writer and gotten, you know, I don't say you don't get your pick of things, but like there's things that come across to you. And the biggest thing that always is a writer that I want to jump off the cliff is when I don't

know how to do anything, when I don't know how to do it. That excites me as a writer. As far as the, you know, the commercial element of it goes, I haven't like figured that part of it out clearly in my career. I have not because I like weird stuff. I like big stuff. I like check. I mean, there's people wandering around in the woods in costumes with axes, you know,

and there's a guy that carries a log around. I thought you'd get that nod from David Lynch. But those are the people that I gravitate towards you. And as writers, and so it's, I guess a lot of my career has been stalling, trying to find those things that I can put all my interest in. And this was a huge book. And as you said, it had auspices, Scott Rudin, Annie Prue. And then it had also a secret ally, who's someone I think you know,

Carolyn Bernstein, who was behind the bridge. And she's one of those sneaky people that for some reason continues to bet on me. And she leaves me alone when she bets on me, which is really nice. I mean, she doesn't say leave me alone. That's a long word. She says, go there. Go get weird. Go somewhere.

Just so you know, she leaves you alone when she bets on you. She doesn't leave me alone because it was a full core press from everyone. I mean, you can text me and I'll text you back and I'll say, come on the podcast. But I have to say, and this is a testament to the work that you did, and of course, these great relationships that you've made with actually good and smart people in the business. But it's not often that I get, like, the network executive saying, hey, check out Elwood's show. Have them on the podcast. Or that's why I'm able to do this. Or Eli Bush from Scott Ruden's company was like, hey, man, just been listening to the podcast. Can Elwood come on? And I was like, don't worry. Don't worry.

Well, I mean, but again, I think, you know, as a writer, it's hard to find those other elements. Because, like, I can write weird. I can write people in the woods. I can write the most uncommercial shit you'd never imagine. But you've got to find those people that will believe you in. And I don't say this with Eli Bush, Scott Rudin, Garrett Bash, and Carolyn Bernstein, and even Courtney Monroe, they drag me to some happy middle. You know, they remind me that people want to watch the show. Can I be people screaming in muddy bogs? You know, they're worried about the beards and the hair.

So, you know, in that sense, they're great partners, but they also push me. And I know, you know, everybody that, I'm not. I hired on the show, I wanted people that were going to push me also. And I think one of the things you're responding to in the show is the look at the show, the production of the costumes. You know, I hired people who push me on a daily basis. And I think that's when you're looking for material and partners, people that are going to support you and push you is really important.

But it's, those are the most important things. As you said, it's easy to do the procedures. It's easy to do this right down the middle stuff. This is not a commercial show. This is not a show that's on television. So, and I knew that going in. I knew there was this huge mountain to climb. And I didn't once think about that mountain because I knew that Carolyn was like,

oh, go have fun. She said, go have fun. Go get weird. Go, you know, go let your hair down. And I did that. And I like to think that the results speak for itself when you do that. They certainly do. I guess I wonder, and I'm sorry to ask you to do the critics job,

but I have given up that role, at least officially. So I kind of am curious your perspective on it. Why this story? Why now? I mean, what is it that motivated you? So now that you sort of answered the, how does this get made and who helps you make it question. You have this vessel. You know, it's an epic book by Annie Prue that exists in the world. And then you have to kind of find your own passion, your own reason for devoting

so much of your time and energy into making it. So why in 2020 are we seeing this show about 17th century colonists and trappers? And I mean, I don't even understand the jobs of half these people yet. Yeah. Well, I mean, well, again, that's a good question. I think that, you know, I have a very dark, dim view of humanity. So one of the things that, and I'm always, And I mean yelling. I'm always yelling at my kids about history and to read stuff. And so when you get this book, you go, this crap that was going on back then, the, for lack of a better word, the rape of the land, the sort of building an empire on the have and have nots, the inequity between the people who had land and had money, the people that didn't and the indigenous populations at the time. That's 300 years ago. And we have not progressed as a society. And it's in the DNA founding of North America. This is the oldest city in North America. So, you know, those. It's sort of that original sin idea. And that was the way, at least that was the trick I was telling myself when I was writing it. It was like, well, if I do this, it's saying something about how fortunes are made and about how what's in the DNA of North America.

But on the other side, I was like, I just really wanted to make a TV show that Werner Herzog would make. You know, that was my sort of maximum, you know, Werner Herzog and black metal. You know, that's what I was, I was consuming a lot of Werner Herzog movies and listening to a lot of black metal. I was like, I want to make a TV show about that. And hoping that I would come through. Well, I mean, I don't know. I mean, that's how irresponsible I am when it comes to material. It's just finding that vibe, you know.

There are so many moments already in the first two episodes that stand out and are so, you know, I'm so grateful that you're making TV in the world because they are really unique in signature. I guess I'm curious if for you in the early going in those first two episodes, is there a moment that is kind of like you could hold that up and say, that's why I did it? Whether it's, you know, the incredibly striking visuals of the first approach to the settlement, when they're literally their bodies strung up as the men from the Hudson Bay Company arrive, you know, the beautiful light that plays on David Thulis's hand in the woods, the trees themselves. There are a lot of moments that kind of make up the show.

And this is, you know, it's a hallmark of all TV that I really respond to where you can tell the intention and the specificity of choice behind each moment. I'm just wondering as the creator, and especially as we're kind of selling it to an audience here who may not have checked it out yet. Is there a moment for you that sums it up? Well, I mean, for me, Thuleus is one of them, that moment when he puts his hand up to the light and he's sort of like going on about God and the light and like, you know, this crazy stuff.

But there's a moment at the end of episode two when he rescues a little girl and he pokes this boy that's holding the girl at knife point. And instead of telling the kid that he's going to, you know, he's a bad kid, he goes, I'm going to have a wife and he starts screaming and singing this mad song and he walks off into this dark woods. I was like, they're never going to live. me in the TV show that way because it has it's not even really an ending it's just a sort of mad guy running off in the woods being that that's that was sort of the tone I was always going

for and and I also think too there's some elements in the you know the Thomas Wright character from Cook that sort of getting him to play against type from the bridge that just rapacious businessman you know always knowing that there is these voices that there's the dreamer there's the Trepena character and then there's the rapacious business guy represented by cook and how to set those two together. But those, that's the stuff that made me excited when you get those guys talking. They're also talking about prune tart. They're talking about weird stuff. You know, just that juxtaposition of the most serious thing and the most banal thing. You know, people being massacred and, wow, this is great pruned tart. You know, that's what I would want

to do a TV show about. I couldn't agree more. It's also interesting, you know, there are so many TV shows right now. There are perhaps too many, and we're constantly starting things because that's kind of the way the business works now and certainly the way the experience works for viewers. And yet even after starting so many shows over the last decade, I kind of think I'm still not good at it because, you know, you launch into Barkskins and again, people listening will, may have this experience or share it. And people are coming at you from all angles and people have accents and there's different factions and you don't quite understand how it all works. And there's a feeling that I think is probably, I think it's probably in a lot of drama series these days where there's a moment maybe like 10 minutes into the second episode where you begin to despair of ever quite seeing the forest for all these trees that you've met. And I think the reason why the end of the second episode is a great reference point is because all of a sudden there's a burst of action in a direction that, you know, is unexpected. And you realize that you, I mean, specifically you L. Wood, you sly bastard, you've, you've lassoed us. You know, you're pulling the knot tight and we didn't realize the rope went around us, you know. And I think that that's, that's kind of what I love most about dramatic storytelling on TV.

And I encourage people to stick it out to that moment if they can't otherwise. But there's an art to that. especially when you're introducing people to not just a world, but a time that they're completely unfamiliar with. In fact, I was unfamiliar with the time when I just got the century wrong a minute ago. Well, but you know, you bring up a good point. I think you and I've had, you know, discussions of this on text. It's like, I think a lot of us as viewers and as readers, we have like almost childbirth amnesia about why we like a show. Succession is a show. I remember listening to you guys talk about it. Everyone I talked to, I watched it and loved it. It was confusing. The

tone was all over the place. There was lots of characters. You couldn't tell who was trying to fuck over who. And everyone kept saying, wait to you get to episode three or four, and then it really clicks in and works. You know, I remember watching Game of Thrones early on with my, with my wife. She didn't understand anything that was going on until she saw that kid go out the window. And it's a big world building, which I'm interested in. And I think that a lot of shows today skipped that part and then you just take a can of gasoline and light a match in the first 10 minutes. And then you watch it burn and it burns itself out after, you know, a season or two. But like, the shows that I admire feel big and baggy and feel like there's a lot of nooks and crannies to,

you know, to one of one of Chris's favorite words. But it's one of those things where that's the kind of stuff I like, now maybe that's a, maybe that's the wrong way to look at television. But, you know, I think as television progresses, there is a lot of that instant reward stuff. And the shows that I like are the shows, I don't know where it's going to go. I don't know what to what it's going to take. And you talk about Lynch all the time. Even just going back and watching that reboot of, I had no clue where that was going to go. week to week. I didn't know they were going to be in the casino for three episodes or with Dougie for three episodes. I had no idea. I want that feeling. I don't get that feeling a lot

of television anymore. And I think the shows that we do like or tend to gravitate towards we talk about are the shows that are able to hook the viewers in early with that big approach and then really, then they've opened up the voice. They've opened up the page, so to speak. And that's lacking in so many television shows. And I admire that. I wish I had very laser-focused a two-hander, two people, you know, like a show like run is very attractive to me because it's so on point, or normal people, so on point, it's so, the universe is very small and the movement in the universe is, you know, very small. But I like big baggy things. I don't know. I find when they hook you, they hook you deep. I think the other thing that we, and I agree with you, and I think

the other thing that we fundamentally agree on is reflected, and you mentioned Thomas Wright a moment ago, who's phenomenal on the show and was breathtakingly phenomenal on the bridge, took me a second to realize that you were running it back with him and that he could play someone so completely different. And then I realized, of course, that you've Trojan Horse like the Bridge All-Stars into here because you've got most of your Dungeons and Dragon Circle

represented. We got a friend of the podcast, Matthew Lillard on there. We've got Abraham Ben Ruby on there. And, A, it's great to see them. It's great to see the gang together again. But I also, to me, and I'd love to hear you speak on this, it kind of reminds me of the reason why, not the reason why I wanted to make TV, but why I so desperately can't wait to get back to doing it again is because you make a family and you make friends along the way and there are people who you work with and it becomes part of your overall experience because the experience isn't this end result that we're talking about here in the podcast. The experience for you is the two to three years beforehand and those have to be worthwhile and there has to be growth even within that. Right. So building this family and working with people and bringing different things out of them has to be part of the equation.

Well, I mean, I think, again, you point out something, if it matters, I know listening to, you know, the podcast of your experience there, when you, when you respect those people and they come every day trying to do great work, it's this amazing feeling. Because we've all been on shows. I've done shows. We've all been on shows where there's a lot, there's a little bit of clock punching and there's a little bit of like everyone's just there for the paycheck. There wasn't one moment in this show and I'm not, you know me, I'm not a sunny, bullshit, fake guy. There wasn't one moment where I ever walked to set and go, someone's just phoning in it. I mean, David, there was. was sweating in these wigs, and he was, you know, these long monologues. I'd ask him to memorize. And there wasn't one moment, Marsha Gay-Harden, any of those people, they never once blinked. And, you know, Thomas Wright and Matthew Lillard are those people, and he, Ben-Rubier people that I would go to war with because, you know, they, I remember, it's funny talking about Lillard, he had taken the job because he's my friend, he read the scripts. And I don't think he'd looked at the cast.

And so he's on a plane up to Quebec, and I sit to him like, dude, you do know who's in the show, don't you? And he's like, no, no, no. I said, David Thuleau. Marshall G. Hardin. And I could see the look at his face. He's like, oh, shit. This is not me going and doing like, I don't want to give too much away.

He's a short arc in the show. You know, all of a sudden, he's like, wow, okay, I got to bring my A game. So it's just being able to push someone like Lillard to do something completely different than what he normally does is thrilling to me. And then Thomas Wright, same thing. That, to me, is creatively what I live for. It's funny. You mentioned that because I actually had the same thought watching Lillard in those scenes with Marcia Gay Harden.

and I don't know him as well as you do, but that's exactly what I was thinking of, was how he must have felt on set that day, because one of the things that I've grown to appreciate, and a lot of it actually, even before I was on set with actors, came from talking to him, like in his experience working on the last Twin Peaks,

was just how much, well, A, just, I know this is basic, but how much actors want to act, and then B, you know, like athletes, you're going to step on the court against all stars. I mean, that is what you live for, what you do it for, but also what keeps you up at night.

And you can feel, that electricity change when you see hungry actors of any age or any experience level work with greats, like the two you mentioned on your show? Well, yeah, and I think that's your job as a shortwinner. And the more I talk to other friends by any running shows, it's you're assembling that team that's going to push people because they do, you know, actors, actors fall to a level. And one thing, I always warned all the directors and actors that were coming into the show. I was like, not threatened to warn them, but I'm like, you know, this is David Thule's

with Marsha Gay-Harden. These are Ferrari and Maserati. You know, I don't want them, you know, brought down. I don't want them going slow on the track. So anything, you know, the director is like, like, don't get in their head. They know what they're doing. And the same thing with the actors.

When I bring them in, you could see some of these actors at small parts. They were like, holy shit, this is David Thuleus. And again, could not be more generous people. They were incredibly generous. Marsha Gay-Harden walks in and she's everybody's best friend in two seconds. But that feeling, because they were my, they were on my team. They wanted to make something great. And they lobbied to be on the show.

They were curious, everything I wrote, where it was going. And when you have partners like that, as I get older, I really view having those core actors. It's kind of what I imagine, like, the reboot of Fargo was like. You get those team together. And you feel every day, I've said this many times, when I walked on set, I felt like I was a piker. I felt like I had to live up to these actors. I had David Thule staring at me, Marsha Gayhart and staring at me like, I got to be my best. And so it kept me on my toes.

I think it keeps everybody on their toes. So we mentioned the elk head behind you, even for people who don't see the sun video, and you're in Montana. You like the outdoors. You are comfortable in the outdoors. I've got the point. Firmly gripped. That's my milieu in the woods, I guess.

Well, so that's what I'm wondering. So what was it like for you to be on set in Quebec? You can't fake what this place has to look like. It seems beautiful. It seems quite rugged. It seems like the imagination, as you alluded to earlier, of your production designers, and your whole crew has to be off the charts. So what was the physical on-the-ground experience like making this show?

I mean, everyone always complains about how hard shooting was. I mean, look, we shot out in the woods. We shot in Quebec, which had never hosted something that big before. And my production designer, someone named Isabel Guy, built an entire, everything you see she built in the woods. And not just in the woods, like, off of a freeway. It was in the woods up, in the woods up, you know,

like 10 miles up a mount with no cell. service. So, I mean, it was challenging, but one of the things that I knew going in when I was writing was I wrote that stuff. I wrote bugs. I wrote mud. I wrote endless woods. So in the actors, every one of them, I kept asking me, why are these big scads of description in the script? Even the producers were asking me that. I was like, because I want people to know what they're doing this is not going to be done on a set. And they kept laughing. Oh, we'll do it in Toronto. We'll do in Halifax. It'll be in a sound set. I was like, no, no, no, we're going to go do this in the woods. And I just held my, you know, know, held, stuck to my guns, and we did it out the woods. What that got me was, going back to Herzogus, I remember reading early about Herzogus, he would put his actors up, you know, you want to drag a steamboat over a mountain, you know, in Fitzcarraldo, he did that. And it lends this, this manic energy to the cast. So when David Dules is out there, like you said, putting his hands up in the light, he'd walked, you know, about a half a mile down through this trail with no markers, nothing in the woods, huffing and puffing and puffing with his cane and tripping over

deadfall and then he's this beautiful scene. So there was no, honestly this acting involved. It was very easy for the actors to immerse themselves in that world. And be miserable in it too. You see bug bites and sweat, you know, and mud and like,

it was miserable shooting for an actor, but it was for me as a writer. It was awesome. I didn't have to tell them there's bugs. There was. And I have to tell them there's nothing. There's no, no actor got off and finished a scene

and checked cell service. There was no cell service where we were. So it was fun from a writing standpoint. Speaking of, you know, the position you were in as the writer of this, I think one of the challenges for period pieces in this day and age is that there is a genuine and important, you know, struggle to represent the voices and the stories of people who were often erased from narratives, particularly historical narratives. I haven't read Annie Prue's book. I imagine that it did some of the work along those lines, you know, ahead of time. But this is, as we said, 17th century and not, you. you know, generally our perception of this time is that not the best time for women, not the best time for Native people of North America. Your story attempts to, you know, kind of encircle all of their stories as well and find a way for them to be equally represented in the story

and have their humanity put on screen. What was that process like for you in terms of research, in terms of prioritizing the stories that you wanted to tell and finding a way to balance it all in the final product? Well, I mean, it's one of those things, where you try to go to the historical record and they're thinking, again, you ask why do the show now. Not that it's a corrective, but like history back then and predominantly still today is written by men and written by the victors. And in this sense, it was the French and it was the Jesuit

priest. But when you looked deeper into the reading of the history, particularly with the women, there was the feed of law with the young women that come there. And one of really interesting to me was that in Europe, women were just given as property by their families to to gain land fortunes. These women who, 13, 14-year-old girls, some of them from the streets of Paris, some of them, fifth daughters, came over to this new land, which they knew nothing about, and were able to pick their own husband, which was anachronistic at the time. It had been unheard of. So they were, they didn't just, weren't given to men. They were brought over, they took this journey, came to this backwater town, were able to pick, granted. It wasn't the

best pick of men as trappers and, you know, crazy guys living in the woods, but they got to pick their men. So I thought that was really interesting. And that was in the historical record, it had not been brought out much. And then as far as the Native American First Nations thing, you know, I hired, first I have a friend David Troyer who wrote a book called Heartbeat of Wounded Me. I brought him on right away as a tech advisor and asked him, just sent him the script. I go, what did I do wrong here? He marked me up and said, I'd screwed up a bunch of terminology. And then he said, well, you have to hire this guy named Migaz-Z Ponsino. He's a Native American writer. And he does this theater troupe called the 1491, pre-Columbus theater troupe. And he

started as a screenwriter and had kind of, I think, given up on that and become a playwright. I brought him in the room, and the first thing he said to me was, we're not going to do chief speak. And I had no idea what chief speak was. He's like, oh, in every movie you see the Indians, they talk very haltingly, like, you know, and very poetically. He's like, why is that? Everyone else is speaking English or French or whatever it is. He's like, why do the Indians talk really slow? And so his, his pitch was, let's just have them talk colloquially the way everyone else in the show is. I had never seen it before. So it was just a matter of like trying to update each of those things, and then be respective of all this baggage that we take it, I take as a writer. I think

your image of the Native American struggle in this country and mine is all formed by the settlement of the West. And that's way, way later in history. This is first, not first, this is pretty close to first contact. This is much different. So it was just being sensitive to all those things, and then getting the right people around you who check you. And Migazi Ponson was one of those people that checked me. And I went up there and met the local people in the tribes. And they all, each of them had their concerns. And I listened to every one of them. And I learned.

Part of being a showrunner is listening, even when you don't want to be wrong and being told you wrong. And going, okay, I push back, I hear it. But at the end of the day, I understand you're right. That's the hardest thing as a showrunner. I find so many showrunners don't listen anymore. And so I had to listen on this show a lot. And I had to listen to the show, too, a lot.

That is exactly what I've been trying to communicate to people. I think you said it better than I have, which is the biggest challenge of the job. I guess I was going to say surprise, but everything was a surprise for me. But the biggest challenge of the job is finding a way to maintain a primacy of voice in a healthy way, because otherwise it falls into nothingness because no one else cares as much as you do, and it has to have some consistency. But also within that, having the openness and humility to know what you don't know, to know that other people know more than you about things,

and also to allow them to bring their own expertise and enthusiasms in so that you're not just robbing them of their lifeblood and then leaving the desiccated husks of your would-be collaborators along the road. That is an ongoing thing. Well, it's funny because I mean, I don't know your style when you're with actors, but I know a lot of show. I just berate people. I just.

Oh, I mean, there are short ones go, hit this mark, say your line. You know, you have to put the comma in there. You can't change a word. I had David Dulles and Marcha Gay Harder there. I was intimidated by them every day. I'm like, if David Doulos has a funny or a better way to say the thing, we're goddamn well going to do it the way he's going to do it. And that went all the way to the sort of First Nations people.

They came to me, all this shit was wrong. Like, you know, they wouldn't be wearing this. They wouldn't say this. They wouldn't do this. They, you know, Indians never point. They use their mouths to point. I didn't know. I mean, I don't know.

You have to tell me what's right here. So it's being humble and being open to that. Again, as I got older, when I was younger, I was like, no, you do it this way. And as I've gotten older, I'm more like, you know, when you get to that level, the Marshall G. Harans and the David Thules and the, you know, the Thomas Wrights and the Anirman Bernard and Christian Cooks, these are high-level actors. Like, they, if you want them to commit to you the way you've committed to the page, then you can't shut them out.

And I find it's a mistake that a lot of people make, a lot of directors make. They're like, shut up, say your line, go over here. And that's not say you open it up to chaos, but like you view them as full creative partners. And it's surprising what you reap. And I had, again, a very elevated incredibly well-wared cast. They were game. They were down to play. I totally agree with you.

I mean, I just think that I understand and I feel compassion for people who feel threatened by other people's contributions or ideas because it's such a rickety boat that you do feel like it's going to sink at almost any moment. But it's so much better, ultimately, to engage them. So there's a big review that came out last week that was basically like, this is your new Game of Thrones, which is kind of like the dream. the dream review, but not wrong in the sense that this is a massive world-building epic. I guess I wanted to give you the floor, because you know this podcast, you are a listener,

you know the types of listeners. What's the pitch that you make to people to jump on board and stay on board? Because I found it to be, I mean, I was into it because I know you and I was just excited about the places I was pretty sure I was going to go and it went there pretty quickly. But it did take me to that end of the second episode. I was like, okay, now I get it now. I am in and I'm feeling it and I'm pretty excited for the next episode in a very traditional like let's jam the next button kind of way. What's your pitch? What's your elevator pitch? Once people, you know, with the understanding that this is a super weird thing that you've somehow been able to pull off.

You know, it's funny. Everyone asked me. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I'll take a little bit of issue with the question. I feel like the things that I love in the world like music, you know, or books, I can't distill it down to. one thing. You know, I feel like any good or worthwhile thing, a book, a movie, TV show, music, it feel like you're jumping into a void. And you don't know what's at the bottom of that. I look for that feeling all the time. If I know what's there and I feel, oh, it's going to be a really safe show, there's going to be some people. They're going to be trying to, you know, make peace of the Indians and the French and the English. And don't worry, I'll make sure it's all clear and won't be very weird. And, you know, we know how history ends up, you know, the French and English go to war and the Native Americans get screwed.

I don't want to watch those. I don't want to know. So, I mean, I guess my answer to the question is, I tried to update a costume or period show. And the way I tried to update it was with weirdness and violence, and there's a little bit of sort of like a metaphysical conversation that's going on with Trepignore. He's a cathar.

So you've had this weird, bizarre character that can make all these ties. That's what interests me. It's not in a nutshell. It's not your elevator pitch. I feel like whenever I go into pitch something and they go, give me the elevator pitch of the show. I'm like, well, that's an easy way just to dismiss something. Because if someone elevator pitches me something,

I don't want to watch that. Also, this is a show where you're taking the stairs, which is what like, you're driving in the elevator. Exactly. That's a great. That's a much smarter way to say it. But like it's not like eating oatmeal. It's not work.

But like, good things should confuse and upset you. I remember I went back, just for an example, I went back and reread the Sopranos pilot. That's a haywire pilot. There's therapy in there. There's mob in there. There's a weird edible thing in there. It doesn't seem to be, it's neither a fish nor foul.

That's the stuff that I'm attracted to. A lot of, you know, Milch's stuff was that way. It didn't identify itself right away. And then all of a sudden you go, oh, that's what that show is. And we just talked about succession. You know, Game of Thrones, I'm a huge fantasy fan. You said I play D&D all the time. It roped in people who don't play D&D because it was a show

that had a lot of other stuff going forward. It wasn't just about dragons and, you know, evil queens. That's what attracts me to any project. I think we've sold it. I feel pretty good about that. I got to ask you since I have you, and we're in our separate quarantine bunkers far away. How are you feeling from your vantage point? And people have already heard you say that you are not Mr. Sweetness and Light.

You are not a natural-born optimist on this. How are you feeling about the current state of the industry? I mean, do you think that we will get back to work? Do you think that, or do you think that like with, I mean, obviously people will get back to work at some point. But I'm beginning to feel like, you know, much in the same way this pandemic has ripped open fault lines that were kind of, you know, lightly covered over in American society or global society. It's kind of doing a similar thing within the industry, you know, and whatever. I think there's still some, in terms of the consumer mindset, because there's so many new services launching and there just seems to be this endless parade of. shows, it does seem like the boom times have never ended. Remember the joke about like the

Netflix receptionist answering the phone and saying, yes, you've got a green light. Those days are, we're already kind of gone. But what do you think we're going to emerge into? Well, emerge or merge into? No, I well, I will probably start emerging. I, I meant emerge, but you know. I do think there, I mean, I think there was a sort of narrative that was going through the pandemic hit and sort of the current times hit that we need escapist fare right i find and i've heard you guys talking about on the pod too like when you see people pre-pandemic like kissing and in crowd you kind of like you have this pullback moment like so um but i i guess i'm going to be that guy and saying that i think that storytelling and particularly narrative storytelling i've said this many

many times before like i came up in the age of books and short stories and like when someone would land a story in the new york or everyone want to talk about it i still feel like tv is that thing I think TV is that thing that moves a cultural needle. And I do think it is vital. I don't want it to be like having your medicine or having like, you know, you know, tail disguised as something else. But I do think that essential storytelling thing, just even historically through all those periods of times,

something that's not going away. And it's probably going to be even more essential. Now, you know, that goes for the frivolous escape, you know, escape stuff that all kinds of people watch. But I do think it's a real chance. And maybe we won't see it for a while. while, that we'll see the business come back and react to what's going on now in a way, are coded. I don't know. I mean, I've never been one of those guys. Like, I'm going to sit down

and write a show about our times now, because by the time the ink dries, it's over with. I just think those things resonate and people will get into head spaces. Do be fair, you've got 400 years now to catch up because you're back in the 1600. So you could slow walk your approach to the present day. When you read historical, it is the same thing. It's the cycle. I mean, I know, I know. gives time as a, it is the same thing over and over and over. And, you know, again, going back to Game of Thrones, it resonated because it showed a lot of human nature in a fantasy setting.

I think that this show in particular, it, it starts on us. I know the talk at National Gehrigrists. Oh, it's an environmental show about the deforestation. Yeah, you know, there's some of that in there, but it's really about the way that human beings have always treated other human beings and treated land. and that we're seeing that right now in our culture. So none of this was happening when I wrote this, but it feels a little bit more resonant now, to me at least.

Yeah, it's kind of, I appreciate that about the show very much too, because there's no safety in the past. You know, there is no feeling of, well, at least we know better than these poor fools. We are always the poor fools. And there's actually something quite heavy and damning about realizing that. Well, you know, it's funny. Also, too, I think because I have kids in it, one of the things I've realized with them is like this.

And your question about the TV business is like fear has been injected into the TV business. You know, or the time's over. And like, you know, one of the things that was my selling pitches for the show is that, you know, these were people that feared the woods. They feared, they believed that there were demons and spirits in the woods. They were hostile tribes. There were English trying to kill them. That sense, and a lot of horrors built on this, looking out into the woods into the unknown and not knowing. and having that fear dictated every element of their lives during, and I feel like our current

time right now, fear has been injected very unfairly and forced upon us in a way that I see with my kids. Everything is fraught with that fear. And it's sad to see, but I do think that I think you're going to see good stuff come from that. You're going to see that, you know, people have a little bit more of a skeptical eye and not be so surprised. But, I mean, maybe people are widely surprised by what's been happening.

I'm not. You know, I mean, if you just look around and lift up a rock here and there, it's there. You know, it's certainly there. And it's always been there. And we're just doomed to repeat it over and over, I think, I suppose. I can't believe you said lift up a rock when cut down a tree was right there for you. You got to promote the show, man. Come on.

Oh, God. Well, how many episodes this season? Eight. It was playing for 10. And then you asked the question about the woods. The reality of building a 17th century. Village in the woods was made very real to me. And all of a sudden I was like, oh, 10 episodes,

I'm going to be shooting in two feet of snow. And so, you know, I wanted to get my production designer a lot of time to build, so we cut it down to eight, thank God. But I did have to scrunch 10 episodes worth of story into eight. So the show moves very, very quickly. As you said, after that, what do they call it? That's sort of like the introductory melody of the two episodes. It moves very, very quickly.

events really move quickly. Yes, but the reason why I'll always ride for you is because even when you're scrunching story, you still have time for prune tart talk. There's always a little room for that because I have a log in there. I have a religious log. I was like, this is Andy Bate right here. I am a simple person. I will take the bait every time and I appreciate it.

It's so good to see your face, have you back on the podcast. I encourage people to check out Barkskins National Geographic. You can watch the first two episodes on Hulu. now and we'll have you on again, I'm sure, very soon. Thanks, Andy. Can I say one thing? Chris have to keep talking about books. I just love that it's a TV show that you end up talking about books.

I love it. It's kind of what we most want to talk about. And so it's just about getting the balance right, you know? I mean, I heard my writers and was a bunch of writers, all novelists. You know, so it was like I got to talk books every day. We didn't talk to them. We talked to talks. Yeah, we're going to continue our deep dive into pre-war German fiction.

I think that that's going to really keep us relevant, you know, keep our listenership right where we needed to be. I see really moving the needle with Magic Mountain talk. You guys said, I think, 10 minutes on Magic Mountain. I was impressed. You're being generous. I did 10 minutes on Magic Mountain. As I told you, that book broke me. I had broke my Spartan reading as a young man.

That book broke. I don't know how you did it, but hats off. Well, I said this you already, but I think that there's something to be said for when you learn as a reading. that you just don't have to do it, that you can just tap out. You know, you don't have to take your medicine. It doesn't have to taste bad. You should read things that give you pleasure. And that, you know, got me 20 years of phenomenal paperback crime fiction.

But now I feel like the new move is to start taking medicine again, which is relevant to the Magic Mountain. I've always taken my medicine. You introduced me to the sort of the vaping pen of Manchette, too, because I was like, yes. And I knew it when you guys were talking about in the podcast, I'm like, why the fuck? I'm not going to look this up. Because if Andy's telling me to look at it.

up. I'm going to open it up and it's going to be a nice 220 page violent crime novel, set in some weird, you know, corner of France. Those things are like drugs. They're so violent. I got Chris on them finally, too. I love them. I love them. But that's the thing like, you know, he looked me on that every man's a menace. I love that book. I've recommended that book probably more than I've talked about Moby Dick in my life now. It's amazing. So it's, it's, those are the books. Those are the little cheap thrills we're always looking for. So keep it up. Yeah, so I agree. So the TV shows can be can be longer and more serious and challenging and then the books can be

digestible. All stuff is, anything that's good for you is worth work. I believe that. I do believe that. I agree. And I look forward to when we can continue this conversation in person. Be well. Hopefully the elk are plentiful. I don't know if that's something people say, but I just... Only if it was hunting season, yes.

My freezer's empty right now. That's such a Montana thing to say. I love it. Good to see you, buddy. Thank you. Thank you, Andy. Take care.