The Watch - 'Squid Game' Season 2 and Everything But TV Recommendations

Episode Date: December 30, 2024

Chris and Andy talk about the first two episodes of 'Squid Game' Season 2, and whether the show was harmed by a three-year break from the first season (1:00). Then, they talk about some of their favorite non-TV-related things this year, including books like 'Orbital' by Samantha Harvey and 'Creation Lake' by Rachel Kushner (26:23), and some of their favorite movies and music from the year (46:35). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line. A man with lots of opinions about the right translation for the Odyssey, it's Andy Greenwald. I didn't know you were going to speak on that. I thought you were reserving your thoughts for the new year. We're definitely over here at Blue Thunder Incorporated. We're not ready to give up that that's what Chris Nolan is actually.

actually doing. I do want to talk to you about the Odyssey. I want to talk to you about everything, man. I want to talk to you about this magic carpet ride called Life. A little bit of Squid Game. The idea for today's show is we're going to hit Squid Game in a very general sense. I'm sure some of you hardcore fans have already

binge through it. Andy and I have not. But we'll chat a little bit about the project, I think, more than the nuts and bolts of the episodes, and then we'll try and revisit that later. And then after that, it's anything but TV. That was the sort of the guiding light for this episode of The Watch podcast.

You know, we typically obviously talk about television. But there are some other icons on our podcast artwork. There's like music. There's books. Yes. We engage in both of those things. Greenwald, it's great to see you, man. How is your holiday so far?

I think that we should replace one of the icons with a stock pot. And in that pot, depending who's using it, you know, for me, it could be aromatic, warming spices for the season. And then for you, it could just be room-temp water with the chicken in it. You know? I really feel like I've worn that cloak for many years, you know. And I've improved my, not only my culinary ability, but also my tastes have expanded. You've grown.

Do you feel like any, do you ever feel like, by the way, this is going to be a really loose show? Do you ever feel like our long relationship is holding you back? Because here, sometimes, you know, you're out there in the world, you're on other podcasts, you're excelling in all areas of life. And then here I'm like, your chicken is moist. No, you're nice. You're nice. I just don't want you to feel bounded because, you know, the other day I was sitting here. It's not like Bill lifts me up.

It's like, I go on Bill's pod to be like putting a gimp suit and be like, oh, did you see Joe Embed like crying on the sideline about depression? Okay, that's fair. But also the other day, I just fired up the last 10 minutes of the 2021 movie draft and you're talking about marrying the Hawk to a girl. Oh, yeah. But we recorded that in August. She was cool back then. I was just like, listen to Chris run free. You know what I mean?

It was a little bit like we all wanted to keep the rescued animal, you know, but actually it deserves to be, I don't know this analogy now. Is this our last pod? You're letting me. It's our last pot of the year. I thought you everything you can learn bad on. I feel like we've always had a Liam Neeson, Christian Bale, Batman Begins type relationship. It's true. You know, and now you're just super jacked and ready to fight Bain.

no, no, this is why maybe we're going a little bit off script this week, just to see, like, if we can bring our new best selves to the podcast before we resume recording in person next week. Have you had a relaxing a couple of weeks, like week off? Do you feel like you're ready to podcast? Absolutely not. No, no, no, I'm not rested at all. My most radical suggestion, I know that we have an incoming administration. I don't know anything about them because, you know, I'm not really reading the news these days. But I did hear that there might be some dangerous, if not radical ideas being pitched around. Like, and, you know, anything's, nothing's off limits. Everything's on the table. Daylight savings, whatever. And I do think that it would be worth suggesting, sure, green lanterns.

I do think that. We've got to bring the green lanterns back. What if Trump brought the lanterns in? What if Trump's like, the lanterns are American and always have been? And Cinesstros in space being like, that's not true. No, I think that we should suggest a, this is the two-week holiday period where the schools are closed. And then the first two weeks of January, the schools are reopened and all adults have them off. All parents have two weeks off. Oh, yeah. A parent vacation.

A parent holiday, basically. Yeah, I guess if you're a teacher. Like rated R Christmas, like PG-13 Christmas? You can do with it what you will. I'm not saying you have to go do. What does PG-13 mean? I don't know. I mean, but like, smoke some SIGs and say the F-Bomb once.

The implication you're kind of saying there is like the kids are home for the last two weeks of or once they go back to school, like, you're allowed to just get into ketamine if you want to. Sure, sure. But not in a party drug sense, and it's originally intended tranquilizing crazy sense. That's, that would be. Meanwhile, you've been like Joseph Robinette Biden just running up Amtrak up and down the East Coast. I respect it. Do you feel rested?

I was in New York. I got to see a stage play on the Great White Way. I went to go see Leslie Headlands play Cult of Love, starring Shailene Woodley and Zach. Zachary Quinto and Mayor Winningham and David Rash, it was really good. You know, it's always, New York's just the best, man. New York has still got juice to it. And when, like, you're like, you're sitting there. Oh, I have to tell you about this very fun thing that I did.

So I don't know if you're aware. I usually stay downtown in New York City. Taylor Swift is essentially ruined dining in downtown New York because if she goes to a restaurant once, if not three times, that place is essentially like impregnable. Like it turns into like Helms Deep. Well, I guess Helms Deep was pregnantable. But you know what I mean. It's like...

Spoiler. My bad two towers heads out there who were on page. I had a couple more pages to go. She's gone to this place corner store. The corner store a couple of times. It's like on West Broadway. And the corner store is essentially, it was a very nice restaurant. But it was essentially like a really, really nice chilies, which...

Yes. And even if as I... I say that. I would put it right on the level of Houston's, which is a kind of, obviously, a California institution. No, Houston's is national and Houston's is as good as it gets. So now you're, now you're drawing my interest. But we were walking by. It was like five something. I go up to the door and I'm just like, I know you guys don't have reservations for the next three years, but I'm going to put my name down. She's like, you can put your name down, but I wouldn't get my hoax up. What name did you put down? Chris Kelsey. I was like Kylie Kelsey's podcast producer. So then we,

We walk off and I'm hungry. It's like six now. So grab a couple slices of Joe's and we go to a wine bar, have a nice little like Cristini, have a nice cheese. We're just hanging out, drinking some red. And at about 7.40, who creeps into my texts? A little corner store. No, they came crawling back to you?

Your table's ready and it'll be, we'll be holding it for 10 minutes. Do you think they Googled your name and they thought that you'd be walking in with Hawk to a girl? I don't know if money is good there. So after eating several slices of New York's finest. This is, yeah. A christini with like a walnut pesto. Two or three glasses of red wine.

I then had to have dinner. Okay. And it was a tough scene. But it was pretty good. But that was like only in New York, you know, in 2024. This is interesting on two levels. One, I have actually, I don't want to gas you up too much, but I have praised you and Phoebe a lot.

I mean, I always do, but for one move that I've seen you and only you guys do, which is the pre-dinner slice. I've seen you do that in L.A., even though it's a very New York thing. What if I tell you in L.A.? Over at Barras Santos, I saw you remember, it was like, I was kind of impressed by that. I feel like that is a, you could take the kids out of New York or put them back into New York. But that's kind of a pro move. What you're picking up on there is that my wife does not eat seafood.

So what happens often is, you know, we love to hang. We love socializing. You guys are elite. But when people are like, come with us to this restaurant, this specialty, and in fact, nay, the only item on the menu are prawns the size of Tyrese Maxi. You know, like, she's going to need to grab a slice before we sit down and pretend that she's going to even entertain eating abysk, you know? No, that's smart game management.

But the other thing that what you're saying, it does, it did remind me of a piece. I think this was in, I can't, I don't know if it was in the New York Times. I don't know if it was in failing New York Times or failing New York. magazine. It's hard to keep them apart these days. But there was a piece about how all the celebrity restaurants essentially serve baby food that like that all the hip restaurants are just like pasta and tomato sauce, sliders, buffalo wings. Like carbone and stuff? Carbone or corner store. It's all like sort of elevated TGI Fridays because and the thing that this piece, hard hitting piece was trying to get to the bottom of is this because all celebrities are babies with bad taste? Or,

is it because celebrities don't actually eat? They just go to these restaurants and get like three Cosmos and a dessert that they don't touch and then leave out the back entrance. Oh, right. Yeah. And you, so all this is to say. Jason Robards as Ben Bradley with his feet up on the desk being like, run that baby.

Jason Robards as Jason Kelsey as Ben Bradley for the New Heights News podcast. No, I guess maybe this is why you weren't feeling great after dinner because you weren't supposed to eat is what I'm saying. Yeah, I wasn't. Where are you on the, where are you? But we're going to get into Squid Game, I promise. Where are you with the Kelsey Media Empire? Because I saw that Kylie, our queen, made an appearance on New Heights and just continued to

just dominate the statute. I'm actually like, I don't want the chiefs to go. I do not want them to three Pete. No. I'm not. I really don't have a problem with Travis Kelsey. Jason Kelly is a god. I would lay down in front of the 40.

separate septa bus for Kylie Kelsey. She seems like a perfect human being. And I'm sure she would be like, I don't want that. I don't want your expectations like that. You know what I mean? But she is a perfect human being. When I hear or like see a aggregated quote from Kylie Kelsey on a media appearance, I have the same reaction that maybe NBA heads do when they see Wembe's line.

You know, when it's just like the first ever 40, 20, 15 line. And it's just, for me, that's Kylie Kelsey being like, don't use pet names for me. And I hate buying presents for people. And I'm just like, she is the queen of the Great Northeast. Honestly, I welcome her to the number one spot. It's one that we have not held as a podcast per se. But if anybody is going to get it, it should be her. Do you want to talk about Squid Game first?

Or do you want to keep going down in memory lane here. No, no, I do because we're going to get silly after that too. So let's talk about television. And by the way, on Thursday, for people who, I always like, for people who only listen to the first eight minutes or people who only listen to the second 22 minutes, I don't know who's listening, but the agency continues to ascend in my personal, we're no longer ranking for the year rankings. And I'm excited to talk to you about the show on. The agency will not finish its season before 2024 closes. I can't remember. I think last year I threw rogue heroes, which is also coming back in early January. I think I threw rogue heroes on my top 10, even though it hadn't finished. But yeah, agency continued. used to cook as does landman. So on Thursday, we'll get back to that. I think Station 11 maybe didn't, was a December show.

Oh, yeah. That's right. And that was quite controversial. No, it wasn't. We don't actually core controversy. Nobody cares. Nobody cares. Okay, but Squid Game did come back.

I was going to go back and see the tenor of our conversations in 2021 about Squid Game. But I thought I would go into this a little bit more blind with you because I think for a lot of people who are not, say, super fan like I've been thinking about this show for three years. Three years. This is probably a very common reaction, which is maybe a little bit of trepidation as this thing appeared after Christmas on Netflix

as it had been built up and built up by the company. It's obviously, I believe it's still the most streamed series in the history of Netflix, or at least the most streamed original show in the history of Netflix. and it has a special Netflix bong in the beginning. It's obviously like they've tried to spin this out and make it into a homegrown franchise. And while all this has been happening over especially the last six months,

but even since the show first came out, the show itself as a show, as like all shows for the most part, faded from memory for me a little bit. I think I had a little bit of hesitation or maybe dampened expectations. heading back into this season, not because of the series, but because of me as a human being who's able to retain information for any period of time. And I was like, I can't really remember,

like I remember this dude gets out, dyes his hair. Yeah, that's cool. And goes to the airport. And I think somebody calls him. Now, I will say one of the things that I would really applaud this season for doing is handholding.

You will remember what happened on Squid Game. you will remember all the key characters and what their motivations are. And it takes its time getting us accustomed to everything that we need to get accustomed to in terms of the socioeconomic situation of the characters, what's at stake, the sort of shadow world of the Squid Game empire that's looming in the underworld under all of them. But for you, man, were you like Squid Game totally remember? Or were you like, I'm going to need a primer?

It's actually not an easy question to answer because one of the reasons the show was so successful is because you get it. You get it pretty quickly. You get it despite language barriers. You get it despite, you know, my, you know, I've since studied up my lack of specific knowledge of the particular socioeconomic strata of South Korea in, you know, the post-resc- you get what I'm saying. Like, the show is universal and its conceit is simple. That said, I remembered very, very, very, very little of the specifics other than what you said. and the fact that the show was set up for our main character to try to get back in, try to run it back. Try to, if not three, Pete, at least repeat. That's right. And it's not easy to get back to the big game. Just ask the San Francisco 49ers this year.

You know, bad things can happen. It's a tough scene. Sorry. I think that three years is an unconscionably long time between seasons of a television show in any capacity. I think that the degree of difficulty here is particularly high because, as has been said in interviews at the time, and certainly in the press tour this time,

this wasn't designed to be an ongoing television show. This was designed by a film guy. Film guy. Well, I mean, like you or Sean or Amanda or Tim Simons or Don Yuk Huang, who made the show. Director Wong, we could call him. he was conceived of with cinema brain, meaning a beginning, middle, and an end

with a purpose and a point with the story he wanted to tell. And that part of that time in between was basically to come up with a reason to do more. I feel strange almost... You and I've only watched the first episode and I'm engaged enough to continue to watch. I watched the second one, just because I wanted to get him

back to the precipice of the games, yeah. But I do think that this is a weird and very contemporary type of, project to consider because the first season was awesome, just unambiguously, it was sick. It was also so thrilling because it came literally, well, okay, not literally out of nowhere, it came from South Korea, but no one was checking for it, no one expected it. And it was a very organic phenomenon, the kind that I think you and I really enjoy skitching along the back of.

Like, I think that we started to hear people chattering about it. It was bubbling up, and then we jumped on and as did more people, almost everyone in the world. and you can't really recreate a phenomenon like that. I also think you were right to bring up something pretty unique here as well, which is Netflix has a number of mission statements, and one of them is to just get a lot of cheeseburger content out for the masses. But the other one is to build perpetual legacy IP for itself. And Squid Game and Stranger Things are its best chance to do that.

And we've already had a Squid Game Reality game. show that I don't think either was engaged with it all. It's a stranger thing's West End London show, which I'm sure will come to Broadway, yeah. Yes. But Squid Game is a weird receptacle for that honor, right? It is a foreign language, and I think deeply Korean in ways that you and I can't appreciate

in terms of its cultural outlook and it's in the way it conveys drama and story and even the way that it's shot and its tone shifts, et cetera, et cetera. They want Squid Game to be a brand. They want it to be video games. They want it to be all kinds of things. And And then there's also the matter of the TV show, which in its first season was, as I said, unambiguously sick, but also a pretty fascinating and compelling critique of late stage capitalism.

And that's a tough, all of that is, that that's tough to square, right, to accomplish all of those things with more television show. So for as much as it was confusing to be like, what is, what has been going on? It was also confusing to orient myself in what is even this project anymore, separate apart from what I remembered about the story. Yeah, and then there's like, you know, they want to have this be something that feels both different and familiar. This is a sequel issue. This is a franchise issue where you want to basically give people the repeat experience that they've had before.

So there will be games. Like you don't have to worry about that part. But clearly the filmmaker and the creator, creative team behind the show are interested. And he has expressed, I think, some ambivalence about. making more of this. It's worth noting at this point for people who don't know that season two, I think will largely be regarded.

Season two and three are a statement together, and that season two is more or less two A, as far as it's a seven-episode run, and that he basically came up with enough story for however many more episodes than they divided it the way they did. And I believe three is coming much sooner, obviously not three years from now, maybe next year at some point.

I found myself with a wandering eye in these first couple of episodes, kind of considering what would have happened if this was not responsible for the shareholder price, the stock price of a massively important and huge company anymore. Now, all TV shows kind of have that responsibility at this point, and it's something that we're not naive about. But there is this plot line early in the season with the recruiter who would initially, brought, you know, players into the game in the first place. And he's given a little bit more, a little bit more room to cook in this first episode especially. And I found myself just like

completely charmed and engaged and fascinated by who is this guy? How did he get this job? What does he think of his job? Et cetera, et cetera. And that is something that needs to be wrapped up in the first episode so that they can get closer and closer to getting our main character back into the games. and I'm not here to debate whether or not that was the right or wrong choice as much as if this had just been a plain old second season of a TV show that might have been a path they could have nosed down a little bit

there are all sorts of different things about soul or about the people who have been involved in these games that you could explore that aren't like how do we get this guy to jump back in the Matrix? right? And instead it's like, okay, that's essentially what we have to do. First of all, Gong Yu is the actor who plays the recruiter. He's awesome and electric. And I think you've really hit on the issue that is, I don't even mean this as a criticism. It's just the nature of the beast here.

The first season works so effectively because it is a statement, a declarative statement on class and urban living and South Korea and the world and also an incredibly surprising and energy entertaining game. And I'm sure that director Wong and his collaborators could make many stories about Seoul. And like there's a moment in the pilot, the season premiere that I really, really liked where the two guys working for Sung to find the recruiter are just eating convenience store food, like one has a sandwich and one has a rice ball. And there's like, at least we're working in the air-conditioned subways. And I'm like, oh, okay, now they're in a place. This is what they're eating. And I'm interested in this. And, you know, I'm having my, my global television

tourism moment that I'm always seeking. But, this isn't that show and can't be. It has to do, as you said, two things at once. And that's tough. I mean, I don't know if there is a verb for this. Maybe we should come up with one or maybe one exists in German. But like it's not storification, but it's like sequelification. It's turning everything into a trilogy.

And there's this moment when something jumps from, and sometimes, and most projects don't really survive the jump. The Matrix was like that too, right? And the issue of Squid Game is no matter how successful this season is, And I'm willing to consider it the same way I've considered the bear season three, which is just as part one of a two-part season. We'll see when we're done, how we pulled it off. That buys a lot of time and potentially goodwill,

depending how they end the season with viewers. But I was really, really interested in season one squid game because I didn't actually have to care about who made this game. There was no origin story that I was interested in necessarily in the front man. or songs like before any of this, right? It was just an engine that told a really propulsive story. Once you jump to a second season, it has to be about this one guy's unique characteristics and heroism

in taking down something that has specific reasons for existing and people behind the masks. And I, you know, people's mileage may vary and this season may prove this point wrong. But at the start of season two, I'm just not as interested in that question. You know, I don't really care about who built this. I certainly don't want to see those VIPs again.

I'm interested that it exists as a commentary on the larger world. And that's the jump. And The Matrix did that too, right? Like, The Matrix is a perfect film. And the next two movies are not perfect. And they have some interesting points. But mostly they were just kind of a clumsy attempt to make this not a story, but the definitive story about these people and why it matters.

Yeah. I mean, it's hard to comment too much without going too deep into the season. as which we have not done. So we're going to obviously continue to check it out. For what it's worth, I did think I was going to do what you were going to do. I was going to just broaden the aperture a little bit. I saw Brian Phillips wrote a smart piece about it for The Ringer. And like I liked reading.

I usually don't read stuff in advance of watching it. But reading that made me feel more interested that there is some social commentary and perspective shifting and, you know, that grounds the season and gives it a reason to exist. So I thought that was optimistic. Yeah. If I sound tempered at all, I think it's just that. Season one, and it really is a phenomenon that I think is limited to Netflix shows because of the reach and the bingeability. Season one was the only thing close to it was Stranger Things in terms of the way it built up and crescendoed and felt like everybody was watching it.

But season one had the added thing that Stranger Things didn't, which was the, oh my effing God, if you've seen this happen, I couldn't believe it. We were, you know, it's like maybe not red wedding level, but it was essentially. like getting a red wedding every episode of some kind. And that was that was sort of maybe 60% of the draw, you know. And so now that we've kind of gotten this place, I like you, I listen to Joe and Rob talk about this on their prestige TV podcast. I was reading Brian as well. Like it's kind of a fun thing to engage in, but I don't feel the urgency around it that maybe I did the first time around. And that was also just such special circumstances in 2021, like the world was much different back then. Would you choose the convenience store role or the lottery ticket? Let's say you were sleeping off

a lot of pizza and walnut christi. Yeah, walnut pesto. Well, I'd probably go lottery ticket because I was like, I'm still full from last night, you know? I'm intermittent fasting. So let's just see if we can make a miracle. That's right. What about you? Um, no, I, I would, you have seen, and I've been, I'm often mocked in real life for the contents of my backpack because I always will have like an emergency sandwich or some almonds just in case. So even if I was full, I'm so averse to betting and I'm such like a risk averse person. I've never seen you gamble in my entire life. I've never gamble. I don't understand it. I wouldn't. So I would take the I would take the roll. And then I probably wouldn't eat it, but I would carry it around. Because you got, you see every time we leave Spotify HQ,

sorry Mr. Eck, but I take a smart bar or two just in case. Just in case what? You're in squibing. I don't know. Yeah. What if I get recruited? That's right. I'm always taking emergency snacks. You never know. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something?

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Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. All right. Well, let's leave it there. We'll maybe even discuss it a little bit more on Thursday when we're talking agency and Lamb, and maybe we'll hit some future squid game episodes. I did want to talk to you about just a bunch of different stuff today. So usually we keep things to CV, but we'd like to try and I don't think we're really

talking about any movies per se now, right? Because you've not really gotten to catch up on awards stuff. Right. What are you reading right now? Like, as we come to the end of the year, I was curious whether or not, with all your travel, like, has it been a good reading year for you? Uh, do you have, like a barometer? This seems like a loaded question. No, I mean, uh, I know what you're joking about, but like, I wondered whether or not you felt like you did a good job reading this year. I find that elections have a tendency to distract me from the world of fiction a little bit. But I'm curious whether or not you felt like you knocked out enough good books this year. Well, thank you for asking.

I would like to take this moment to say that I feel like I did a very good job reading this year because I either read or reread seven quite long books for professional reasons. And enjoyed that quite a bit. And then otherwise, we're just reading Kay Granger's tweets. No, otherwise. I was just reading. looking at her X account before you got on the Zoom and I was just like, let's just see what Kay Granger's last tweet was.

By the way, look at you pulling a Joe and Mika. Now you're calling it X, huh? You're just trying to just grease the wheels for January 20th. I got to check out my visa. I have no idea. Interesting. Yeah, anything good on there? You like some of those?

They like some of that content? You see anything good? There's a lot of debate. For some reason, my For You page is entirely about the right. Odyssey translation. I wasn't even joking. There's like a lot of fighting going on about that. I hope we do get a chance to talk about that. To answer your question more seriously, although I kind did, that did take up a lot of reading this year. No, I think it's generally been a very, I think it's been a bad reading year. I've fallen beneath my benchmark of stuff. There was a bunch

of rereading. I find myself, and I don't know if this is like, this is like sign of a troubled mind or a diseased detention span, but I am in one of those, like, I am actively reading five books and it doesn't feel very good, you know? And then just when I think I'm like really committed to something, I will get a beautiful advance from like Europa editions of a French crime novel called Dogs and Wolves. And that's what I'm reading now. And I'm really enjoying it. I do have two recommendations as part of my like end of the year stuff. I know you get recommendations, bro. But I was curious. Like, I have been, so, like, this year has been

what a lot of the late stage CR reading years have been like, which is a lot of espionage and crime fiction. Sure. And then I am trying to read a project book every year. Now, like, when I say project book, I just mean it's going to take me a while

just because, like, attention span wise and also work-wise, like, it's hard to just really spend, like, uninterrupted hours reading East of Eden or whatever. No big deal. And this year I was trying to read Devils by Dostoevsky. And I got about midway through when started traveling and I didn't want to bring a five-pound

Russian novel with me. I just didn't know how that would look on the streets. You know, I just never know. In England? In England, I think you would probably do quite well. Oh, no, they'd be like, I have a lovely penthouse apartment if you'd like to. Exactly. So I feel a bit disappointed in myself and also, so I don't do the five books at once thing. No, no, it's impossible. No, but what I do is just basically like inchworm my way through a book that doesn't need that much, that shouldn't require that much time to do. And then at the end of the, like after two months, I'm like, I can't believe I'm still on page like 132 of this.

So that's why I think I've been trying to do more like, hey, always read because it's a good muscle. but give yourself a break and read Len Dighton books if that's what you want to read, but make sure you're trying to get one big one in a year. Well, that's why I think that it would almost be more useful than, you know, we always talk about it. We still have like somewhere in the blog averse. There's still evidence of our double-down book club stuff and there's the crime novels that we always love to talk about.

But I feel like it would be even more useful, like more servicy if we had a list of like skeleton key books, meaning books that reopen your love of verse. reading again because it does happen, right? You could be totally jammed up and trying to read five. Well, not now. It ruined it for me. But like there are books that suddenly remind you, oh yes, I love this more than anything else. And you read an entire book on a, I don't know, let's say, 11 hour flight and you feel great about it. I would also say that the real version of Oprah's book club that matters to me is Kaya's book club. I was just going to say that. I wonder she's had to listen to us talk about some pretty stupid shit over the course of her life. But

her being like me like book, but me can't read more two page once. And Kaya has like a list of like 70 books that she read in 2024 and is like, I put stars next to the ones I like. Yeah. Did you see that the Emma Klein short story collection got a star? Chris. I saw a play at his lays made a spot there though. Well, hell yeah.

To be fair, I don't really do project books. I pretty much exclusively stick to novels. Your books are project books. Also, like Andy and I read the same book over and over and over. It's true. Take the W. Can I also say that in our defense, Kaya has 90 minutes on Mondays and Fridays,

just if I interrupted reading time. So I think that's pretty good. Yeah, that's why whenever you're like, I can't believe you still use Twitter. It's like, I only use Twitter while you talk on the podcast. Can I, especially when we're remote. Can I make two actual recommendations?

Of course can, yeah. That I think our podcast listeners would enjoy. One, and I think I've said this. to you too. Maybe I mentioned on the podcast, but there's a book called A Way of Life like any other by Darcy O'Brien. It's available from New York Review of Books reissues. It is an incredible Hollywood book. And it's like the author, it's semi-autobiographical Buildings Roman fiction, right? Where it's like the author and the main character are the sons of faded golden age silver screen stars. In real life, Darcy O'Brien was a child of Hollywood, and this is sort of loosely modeled on his own existence where there was a moment when his father was like a star of Westerns and his mother was a romantic lead and then all of their marriage crumbled, as did their fortunes.

And this book is so, so, so funny. And it's just like an absolute, it's an absolute gem for people who enjoy relatively quick, funny books, but also deep, deep Hollywood. It's great. And the other book that's kind of got me outside of my comfort zone, Chris, I was mentioned this the other week. It won the Booker Prize. It's Orbital by Samantha Harvey. Yeah, you and Obama. That's among the many things that we have in common.

I mean, we both are super into podcasts. You both watch a lot of television. Yeah. No, we both love but are not loved back in return by Boy Genius. For reasons that slightly differ. Yeah. And this is unlike any book I've read maybe in my adult life. It is 120 pages.

It's super dense. It is about one rotation, one, well, it ends up being like 14 orbits. but one Earth Day on an international space station. And it is not really fixed perspective among the astronauts. I can't tell you that anything particular happens. There's no crisis. But it absolutely blew my brain out the back of my head in terms of just perspective on this ridiculous planet that we're living on

and who we are to each other and what we owe each other. And it's so beautifully observed by just a lady living in the UK, who in interviews has been like, no, I don't think I would ever go to space. It's it's 120 pages, but it is not a single sitting. Like it is, you reward yourself with like 15 pages and then you think for a while and then you fall asleep. Kai, have you checked out, Orbital? No, I haven't.

But I mean, if it's on Andy and Obama's list, then I think I have to. It's starworthy, Kaya, I'm telling you. So Darcy O'Brien and then you had, what was the name of the author of Orbital? Samantha Harvey. And you can find that on Barack Obama's 10 Best Books of the, the year list. My two recommendations that I have knocked out at the end of the year here. One is, well, they're both by two of my favorite writer.

So the first one is the latest from Richard Price. It's called Lazarus Man. Richard Price is an object of deep, like, we adore him on this podcast. He wrote Clockers. He wrote Lush Life, which is one of my favorite novels. He wrote very many, like, incredible screenplays, including the script for color of money, the Martin Scorsese film, but is more recently been known to work in TV where he did work on the Wire season three. He co-created the night of and worked on the outsider a couple years ago in HBO.

Lazarus Man is his new novel. It's set in 2008 in New York City and is about a group of characters who are united by the collapse of an apartment building uptown in New York City. And it's just a great Richard Price snapshot of New York Life, which he's, he, unlike anybody else I know can capture certain ground currents, certain patterns of behavior, certain energies and even though this is more or less

a period piece by this point, it is just a phenomenal, phenomenal book. I really loved it. Did you ever read his third book? Do you ever read Ladies Man? Hell yeah. I think I've read them all at this point. I'm a big, big fan of,

I mean, I like all of his books, but his early books when he was less a, I'm going to be a top-down observer and a canny observer of crime culture and the way people act the way they are and he was still in his like, I will also be a great novelist who will elevate my own existence

prowling the comedy clubs of the Upper West Side of New York trying to get laid. Yeah. That's a... Ladies Man is a great book. The other one that I wanted to recommend was Creation League by Rachel Kishner.

Did you finish it? I'm jealous. I feel like that's on Kai and Andy's reading list. And that one is... We have our own list now, by the way. Slightly different. It has a different vibe than other Rachel Kushner novels

that I obviously just love her stuff and she's most probably well known for flamethrowers. I love Mars Room. Planet Telex is another one that's really great set in Cuba. Creation Lake is more of an espionage story, so I am cheating.

It's not really a project book if there are spies but it's about a woman who becomes involved with a group of radical environmentalists, I guess, is the best, easiest way to put it, in France. But is also just, just a lot of riffing.

There's a lot of like, maybe not unlike Orbital, like the novel you were talking about, where there's just like a lot of room for Rachel Kushner, whether through the voice of her narrator or not, like to kind of just make lots of observations about life. And so it's got a very compelling story. It's a bit of an oddball pacing-wise,

because it's like, each chapter is about two pages long. So it feels very staccato and its rhythm. And sometimes you'll feel like, oh, I'm rolling downhill with this thing. I'm really going. And then it's like, no, I'm going to talk about Neanderthals for two pages. But it is an excellent book, and it's obviously in my wheelhouse in terms of the motif.

Do you feel like there's any story to be mined from someone falling in with a group of moderate environmentalists? Just like people who donate to Greenpeace occasionally and usually remember to recycle and compost. I feel like all the environmentalists in fiction these days are radical. I remember how to blow up a pipeline, you know? Yeah. Like, what happened to your just, like, garden variety, like doing my best, putting my kids' lunches and paper sacks, not plastic bags, kind of environmentalist? So here's the thing I wanted to. I don't know. That's a good question. Thank you.

They're obviously far more dramatic, the more radical they get. I wanted to ask you whether or not you've ever read The Odyssey. Oh, yeah. I have. Yeah. Yeah. It's great. Great story. A lot of journeying. Do you remember when you did it? Well, okay, so for context, right, we should say one of the reasons you're asking me this is because Christopher Nolan's new movie was announced with Tom Holland and Matt Damon and there was a lot of speculation as to what it was going to be. And you took every chip that you've gained in life and a couple packs of six MGs and you pushed it into the center of the table and put it all on. This is a helicopter movie. It's a remake of Blue Thunder, yes. And I am not ready to say I was wrong yet.

No, I do think that the most interesting version of this would be the Odyssey with helicopters. It would be a much shorter story. It would make it so much easier. Because from above. Can you imagine Zeus was like, what are these flying men? And like there's the ocean is raging and Cillin Carybdis or like, soon he will be here. And then he just flies by in a helicopter. You really have read this.

Yeah, just flashing just double middle fingers being like, you can't stop me. What if the sirens were calling? The sirens were calling to Odysseus. but he's like, I can't hear you over the chopper. This was a, I think it was a college project because I did take a classics course because I couldn't disobey my father for that long. Like, I did have to, like, touch a couple bases

in order to live the otherwise layabout existence that I lived. So you avoided the Odyssey. No, I read The Odyssey, and I know that because I found a copy of it in my childhood bedroom. And I definitely have, like, notes on the margins for at least seven pages. Needs more choppers.

Black Hawk down question? What would more Shider do? Yeah. No, I have at least seven pages of notes about it. And then they mysteriously vanish after a certain point. So I'm pretty sure I just was so into the story.

I stopped taking notes in the margins. No, I read the Odyssey also in college. I was very, you know, kind of surprised to see the arguments over the appropriations over the appropriate translation. I think Emily Wilson's has become the lightning rod here because it's supposed to be a little bit more in the more modern vernacular, I guess.

And it is interesting, though, because I was flipping through the... Sorry, the modern vernacular. Not like... Like, Skibody. Oh, shit, Odysseus. Where are you at, RN? You have so much Riz. You could come all the way.

Right? Damn. I was thinking about how... I wish that there was... Or I wish that I was participating in some sort of continuing education thing where there were certain books that I do think would be...

It's helpful to have them taught as much as they are to be assigned. So, like, I always kind of felt this way about Faulkner. It was always like a really... Like, when I would be reading Faulkner, I would just... I...

It's a lie. There's a density of the pros, and you're obviously, I think, missing something if you don't have somebody who has got an academic background in it, helping you kind of understand what it is. So I was thinking about that, though, with The Odyssey,

I wonder if the film will replace college? I don't know. I mean, well, people basically, like, be like, yeah, I've read The Odyssey. I saw the movie. I mean, first of all, yes. That is what? people do. I feel like that is fundamental. It's, I mean, are you pro this, like, in the sense,

because you are generally just pro Nolan? And so, and do we have Cassie's Tom Holland playing Odysius? Are you asking if I'm pro Christopher Nolan adapting the Odyssey? Because you are pro Nolan, are you just like, yes, this seems like an exciting idea. Or do you have, like, or immediately doubts forming or caveats that, like. I have no doubts. There are no caveats. You're not thinking about, Also, I don't really feel like Christopher Nolan has done a straight story in his life. You know, like, with the exception maybe of the Batman trilogy, I don't think that he takes his subject head on. Like if he wants, I mean, perhaps he's like, technology has met me where I need it to be.

I've always wanted to tell this story. And so this is the right time. I feel like I'm nimble enough. I've mastered my craft enough. The cast wants to do it. and we can bring to life something that like we could not even have imagined 30 years ago. There's like a way to depict Poseidon or whatever. But like to me it's just like I can't wait to see what he does with this story.

You just, you don't have like Darren Aronovsky making Noah vibes. Nah, I don't. Do you? No, but I, I mean, with all due respect to Darren Aronovsky, it's a tale of the tape there. You know, like, what? Come on, man. I mean, Darren Aronovsky does not. have inception on his resume, right? Okay, but now I'm just hung up on the modern.

Like, I just, when King of Ithaca, Tom Holland, visits the Lotus Eaters, and they're just handing out packs of like, what is it, smooth flavored zins? What would you say was the best one? And they're like, these are pretty good. We should probably not go home now. He's like, no, spit out the devil's poison. Spit them out, like, but I feel calm.

Okay. Do you have any reading goals for 2025? I mean, I kind of... It was pretty thrilling to infuriate an entire fandom by my... By not reading something. So I wonder what I could not read. There's a lot of power in that. My reading goals are I have...

Are you a big, like, bedside table guy? Like, I have a just... There's my bedside table height. I should get a shorter one because the actual height is the 10 books stacked on top of it. Yeah. both are taunting me. I kind of want to lower that pile. Basically propping up a lamp on my bedside table.

So they're like just to elevate the lamp a little bit. I'm realistic, man. It's like the book that I'm reading is the book that I'm reading. And we're either going to quit midway through and then quiet, quit reading all together. Quiet quit? Yeah, like for a little bit. I feel like I basically put myself in brain prison for a while when I get to a point of inertia with a book.

I mean, I'm doing this podcast for. from my kitchen table right now where my computer is balanced on the beautiful hardcover copy of three shades of blue, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Bill Evans, and the Lost Empire of Cool, which my friend John Carlos sent me kindly five months ago, and I've continued to tell him, no, I'm reading it. It's really good from page 58. So I think, like, my goals are pretty overt. Can I just say also, though, just like it looked like a pro tip. If you want to, like, give yourself the feeling of having read one of the Russian greats, but like, you don't. have six months to devote to the project, check out my guy Turgenev. Read fathers and sons.

This stuff shorter. No. Yeah. This is also a masterpiece. No, I'm not going to cheat. I'm not going to cheat. It's not cheating. That's a great book. I can see you Googling Turgenev to tell me which one to read or which translation to read. No, fathers and sons. Who did the translation? That's good. Okay. You're a translation guy. This is elite podcasting in your 40s. That's okay. I don't know what my goal is. I would like to... Maybe I'll get back to Devils if I can. What about music, man?

Where are you at? How you've been? I know you did your festive 50 playlist. I did one of my own but did not make it public. And there's only 41 songs. I think that... I noticed this week, these last two weeks. So about 10 days ago,

on my Instagram story I put up a song by a guy in Cameron Winter who is the lead singer front man for a band called Geese and he made a solo record called Heavy Metal and it is unbelievable. I think it's like a fucking masterpiece it's basically

I think when I texted Fennacy about it I was like this is like if Smog was produced by Harry Nilsson I've seen other people compare it to Scott Walker or to Lou Reed Father John Misty. There's a lot of different comparison points you could throw around. But I personally just am really deeply enchanted by his lyrics.

They're funny. They're heartbreaking. They're verbose and like dense. But I noticed that because I kind of finished this really like hard run of pods and listening to pods. I had a little bit more brain space to just like let music take over my life and walk around with it. And I just was like, this record happened to come out at like the perfect time for me. And I know that you were like, this is incredible.

But it's so funny how like it's a at this point in my life, like between podcasts and music, it's like music has to have like almost this serendipitous moment with me where otherwise I'm just listening to like melodic hardcore all the time. And that's just like my preferred kind of music right now. And I just, I just, that's the. kind of stuff I'm really into. But this record came out and I was just like, this is clearly like my favorite record of the year. Like I haven't felt this way about any other music this year. I mean, do you find that there are different times a year where this stuff is hitting you harder?

I think you're on to something really interesting. And I loved finding out about this record from you. And that the recommendation engine still works. And I find that one of the reasons why I do the 15 new songs that I loved this year playlist, which you can find on my Spotify. It's just my name. And Spotify, public profile. Not the private profile. Nah, that's just for the heads. That it's just all your audio books of the Odyssey. So you can pretend like you read it. No, just all the different translations of the great Russian novelists, just so I can be on top of these conversations.

Terminem talk. That it focuses me at the end of the year. to actually engage with the stuff that I've been dumping in various playlists. And, you know, because one of the books that I want to check out next year, it just came out and there's been a lot of coverage of it is Liz Pelley's book, Mood Machine about how Spotify works and also works against our passions here. No, no, I'm saying I think it's interesting. And it's kind of true in the sense that, like,

I realize that probably like the most listened to music of the entire year for separate apart from my rapt is like a, a word. West Montgomery trio track that finds its way into every single algorithmically designed playlist that I listen to when I'm making dinner to the point where I'm actively sick of it. And I kind of want to turn off this one track, which is a beautiful track. But instead of playing me the six other things that might be like it or put me in a different direction, it just keeps giving me the same thing. Yeah.

So I do find one has to take more of an active role in listening and curation helps with that. One thing, I loved a lot of music this year, but one thing that I am kind of excited about, and I don't know where you are with this, and I don't know if it feels a little bit like nostalgia in an uncomfortable way to you, is this group of teens into their 20s, indie kids in Chicago, and the scene, the self-appointed name of the scene

is Hallow Gallo off to the Noia song. But that's like bands like Lifeguard and Horse Girl, and Horse Girl has a new record coming out at the beginning of the year, and the first single that I heard from it, Julia, is phenomenal and would have made a list if it had come out a little bit earlier. But this kid, Kai Slater,

who makes a zine re-interviews like Letitia from Stereo Lab. And it's almost like he is performing nostalgia for himself for a time that he didn't exist but was our childhood. But then he also just casually drops records as the sharp pins, including a record called Radio DDR, which is one of the best albums of the year. It's just seemingly effortless, lo-fi guitar pop. I have literally never heard of this.

This is an entire scene that you've just been keeping to yourself? No, I just feel like this is out there. People are like, lifeguard and more scour- They're both on Matador. Like, this is like your little... No, they're on Matador, man. Like, I didn't invent this. I'm bringing Cameron Winter to you.

I'm like, fucking Lou Reed walks among us and you're just like, oh, I just have my little Chicago indie pop bands. I made a public playlist. You could dive in anytime you want, but... I skimmed. I skimmed it. Okay. All right.

My point is, I find this kind of cute and also inspiring, but mostly I think the songs are really good. And I have not felt the same way about a lot of hyped indie acts who are as... All this is to say, if you're still listening, God bless you. But, you know, when we, when, if people who are listening who are roughly our age, and there were new bands coming out of the 90s and people who are older than us would be like, oh, yes, it sounds like whatever. I'd be like, whatever, man, youth is the future.

And now we are the people being like, yes, this does sound weirdly like every band that was in New York 20 years ago. Yeah. And I still have access to those bands. So you do you, but I don't need to engage with this. I am not having that response to these Chicago bands who I think are actually actively engaging with art and culture in an analog way that I find not just charming but actually kind of inspiring. Yeah, that's one of the hardest things about the long lifespan of bands with no disrespect to them because everybody should continue to do their thing. But like,

it is, I think it's interesting. Do you find yourself more invigorated listening to a younger band do something similar to the bands that you used to like or something? loved growing up, do? Or would you rather just listen to Interpol or continuing to, like, chip away at, like, at the wood? I think it depends on the band. And I think that, you know, if you love music and you have the sort of deeply subjective, deeply empathetic relationship to it, I do think that one's compass is often right.

Like, there is a spark here. There is an actual engagement. Whereas there's an artist, like, and I mean, no disrespect, but, like, it records as the dare. Yeah. And it's fallen in with, like, Charlie X, X, X, X world. And I'm like, yes, I, too. remembered what it sounded like at pianos in 2003, except I wasn't in preschool, I was there.

You know what I mean? And so that's fine. And now I sound like losing my edge. But I think I do like bands, like in this year, one of our favorite bands, Los Campesinos put out a record. And that is a band that I find more engaging as they age because they are aging. And like, the whole band identity was just like, we're kids and we're against the world. And gang singing. And now Gareth is like, well, I guess I really do work at a university library now. But I still am moved by art and romance and things. And it sounds a little bit different. And it's a little more world weary. And I really like, I like that because I am also a little bit wearier of the world. So but then, you know, but then when when youth hits, it hits. You know, listen to these Chicago teens. They're trying to tell us something, Chris. The only other thing that I will mention that. that I've been really into recently music-wise,

and then we can wrap it up, is... I know you have the same thing, where sometimes with playlist or songs you're looking for on Spotify, you're really chasing a feeling more than you're chasing, like, a certain artist or a certain grouping of artists. And ever since I saw The Brutalist, I feel like I have been chasing Brutalist core, which is broadly like this kind of modern classical meets a little bit of

free jazz that you can hear in Daniel Bloomberg's score for the Brutalist. And if you get a chance to see the Brutalist in theaters, please go see it. It's one of my favorite movies of the year. But the music, it's one of the main reasons to see it and to see it loud. And, you know, I was basically like skimming

around on Spotify trying to find stuff that reminded me of that score. And the other day, just like in one of those moments where you're like, fuck, yes, life is okay, as I was walking across church in New York City, it is a wet 50-degree December day, and I was listening to Julius Eastman, who is this really tragic composer musician

from the 70s and early 80s, whose work was essentially lost to time after he died, I believe, of AIDS in the early 80s, essentially, like, alone and penniless. And his music since had this huge revival or at least a significant revival. and I came across this piece of music called Feminine, which is just absolutely extraordinary.

Number seven is the one I was listening to, and it actually captured the exact thing I wanted. It was like it was brutalist core in its purest form, and I know that that is such a stupid way to sum up a huge body of work from a really talented and important artist. But I got introduced to a whole new person's body of work that way, And it was a very cool moment. And I've been listening to his stuff nonstop since then.

No, I think one of the signs of really great art or engagement with art is when it completely changes your sense of an aesthetic and, you know, and gives you a full 360 degree feeling of, of creativity and like, now I want things to sound like this or look like this. Or I want to try to have them feel that way again. I haven't seen the movie, but that's exciting. By the way, I do want to say, I didn't know we were just doing the icons on. on our logo because I did want to advocate for two other life-changing things that I discovered this year. Okay. I really celebrated it if that's all right. And obviously, I have been traveling a lot, so it reflects that.

But I do think that we are often sold a bill of goods in terms of, like, you know, things that are going to change our lives, whether they are, you know, like life hacks. Or I know you're really into the Huberman diet, and it's really worked because you see sunshine right away and you've just been a different guy ever since. But of all the things in the last 10 years that have promised. me something and underdelivered. Only one has truly promised me something and delivered to a degree that I never expected possible.

And Chris, that is the global entry card from the great, still great United States. You're just saying shit you have now. No, I'm saying that my greatest experience of the year was flying through the line at the end of only my, like, I flew back from London six, I think five or six, seven times. I don't remember this year. And only one of them did I have this status where they were like, yeah, you're fine. It changed me. It changed me.

And I don't know if I can't ever really go back. But you know it's not like Sapphire status. All you had to do is go talk to a gentleman at one of our great airports and they would consecrate you with this, they would give you this benefit. I was worried because there was a period of time when I was traveling and bringing back raw dairy cheeses just with abandoned. No, it's worried that that left some sort of digital footprint. You picked the right time.

human history to be the raw milk delivery man. That's great. That's great. I was ahead of the schedule. I do think that one of the funniest things about global entry is that the most common and efficient way to get it is that at the tail end of a no doubt bruising international flight, you then wait in another line to talk to a guy about why you should be allowed to not experience this again. So my photo is the worst photo ever taken of anyone because I've been up for 25 hours. Yeah. I look like a guy who's like, had 14 guineesses in say nothing in my picture, yeah. How many had you had?

Just six. Just six. Okay, I was also just going to say letter of recommendation from travel for the half pint. I just feel like not enough people who people have not traveled often to the UK don't realize that it is a relatively normal things. You get half the amount of beer. And that is honestly a game changer as one gets older. Do you ever do that in America?

I haven't found a place that does it. Do places do it? I bet places do it, but I bet it's just like, I feel like there's something that you would be looked down on for doing it here. Y'all, I do a lot of things that are looked down on here. Okay, I know you want to wrap up, but I'd have one last question for you guys for our free-for-all episode. And Kai, I'd like you in on this as well. I did prep Chris for this. I don't know if you came up with any answers. I had a moment recently, and this has happened throughout one's life. I think it happens more often to only. children, where there are just things that you assume are universal. And then in the larger bloodstream of your adult life, you find out that some people just didn't grow up that way and do it completely

different. For me, it was a birthday cake. And the idea is that I understood growing up is that, and I thought this was standard, let's say it's your eighth birthday. How many candles are on your cake at your birthday party? 40 for LeBron James. Happy birthday. No, really. Like at your eighth birthday, how many candles were on the cake? Eight. See, I thought it was always nine because there's one to grow on. And I thought that was a universal conceit to the point where I would just use that as an analogy. Like, no, no, it's just, you know, it's an extra one.

But then I was looked at with such just shock and confusion at my presumption that anyone else would. Kai, am I talking crazy? I've never heard of one to grow on on a cake before. Never heard of that. Sorry. Are you serious? Yeah, definitely, man. I'm sorry. I've never ever putting out an extra candle on because one to grow on.

One candle. Yeah. Yeah. That's what my parents did. I just thought that was the standard. Well, I actually don't know how old I am. This is a real like,

real like mask off. Like what was this house of cards? Early 2000s. I wasn't old enough. Really. So are there any other examples of this that you can think of of just things that you thought were normal in your household? You know,

I'm often, I often think of this when I watch people brush their teeth in movies and television when they're just constantly drinking and spitting for example. And I feel bad, but he's no longer with us. It hasn't been for a while. I always thought this was like such an amazing moment. I don't think I knew until I was

15 that not everybody's dad brought a six pack of Bud Light to McDonald's. This is my favorite. And it was like, my dad and I used to go to 30th Street Station to go to McDonald's as like a guy date when I was a little kid and he would have a little cooler of BLs and I was like that's just

what you do you bring your own beverage to McDonald's that's what dads do that's called doing the work and it was like I can't remember what how it kind of occurred to me like that that wasn't what other dads did all the time but yeah that's that's basically mine did you learn eventually by looking at the other booths? Like what was? No, you know, I mean, I was locked in on that quarter pounder, man. Like, I was just like, this is about as good as it gets. I mean, McDonald's is really, like, that's the original corner store.

It is. It still is. What about you, Kaya? Oh, gosh. I don't know if I, nothing is coming to mind off the top of my head, but Chris, I really love that. That is a beautiful memory from your childhood. I mean, I do think that, and Kaya, you have a sibling, so maybe it's different.

but like I do have a lot of, I think it's very only child. Yeah, it happens a lot for only children where you're just like, oh, like, nobody gave me the guidebook. Also for like only children who go to Quaker school, I think we're kept from a lot of things. Like saying grace. When my wife's family does grace before holiday meals, like I try to jump in there like refines and conclave.

I'm like, because I don't get to do that very often, you know, so I'm just like, We got to get this demon out of Reagan, you know? I thought you meant the opposite. I thought you meant that you keep getting caught off guard because your hand is already inside the cooler you brought. Oh, yeah, because I'm hearing on DL number four. I just remember, like, I talked about this recently, maybe with you, but certainly not on the microphone. But like on any times in my childhood when my father was out of town for work or whatever, my mom would be like, oh, what should we have?

Should we have our usual dinner at this night without. dad here. And I was like, yes. And usual dinner was potato chip dip, which was, which was a brick of Philadelphia cream cheese in the food processor with one onion and just a healthy long squirt of ketchup. And then some ridged hers potato chips. And be like, hmm, dinner time. I'll just go over and curl up with the Odyssey. That was, that was my version of girl dinner. I guess that was boy dinner in the 80s or my mom's version of it. But again, like you just don't have. especially as an only child, you don't have the barometer of someone else's face taking this in. So I'm like, well, it's just normal.

Pop open a new bag. Life's a mystery, man. Greenwald, I'll see you on Thursday. Thanks to Kai for producing us this goofy little episode. We'll be back to talk about agency and land man and maybe some more squid game on Thursday in person. And guys, January is the 13th birthday of this podcast, which means 14 candles on our podcast's birthday cake. Bye, guys. Happy New Year, Baranskies.

Thank you.