The Watch - ‘Star Wars’ Announces Another Chapter of the Skywalker Saga. Plus, ‘Lioness’ Season 3 Finale With Van Lathan.

Episode Date: September 28, 2026

Chris and Andy talk about Jon Watts directing the next ‘Star Wars’ film, which will be the next chapter in the Skywalker saga (2:19). Then they discuss ‘Lanterns’ Episode 7 (14:41). Later, Chris is joined by Van Lathan to break down the ‘Lioness’ Season 3 finale and look back at the season as a whole (36:56). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Follow us on IG and TikTok! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Van Lathan Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Studio Production: Trevor Rabone Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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On October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap to blame on me. Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess. And Digger's gonna dig us out. From the director of Birdman and the Revenant.

What would happen if I stop doing? You starve. You freeze to death. That's what? With great power. Comes great deniability. I'm not the earth, Danny. Digger.

See the trailer online. Only viewers on top. over second. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line.

He will conclude his hat ceremony at the end of this podcast. It's Andy Greenwald. Dude, I'm having flashbacks. This is how we started the pod. I know. Coast to coast. In New York City, another guy in Los Angeles. talking about TV and pop culture.

And, you know, it's another year. We each got some different mayors, but it's okay. I'm happy where I am for that. Have you taken any free buses in New York City yet? I haven't, but I did consider buying a I-heart NY t-shirt for my daughter, but the heart is Zoran's face. And what I say for my daughter, I mean for myself. So it's in play.

It's in play. But no, it's been quite a, what's the opposite of pleasant, rough landing? Yeah, because I moved out of the city 10 years ago. And then I came just in time to get like a sick-ass cold and I have a sick-ass Nor Easter. And I'm back, baby. I'm all grim and grumpy. Yeah, and he's doing a little bit of work in New York City. But that doesn't mean that the watch misses a beat, right?

Never. Never a podcast. And really is dedication to the larger project of television as a lens through which we view modern life. It's like Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail, man. You just got to keep walking the invisible bridge. Wow. Yeah, that's how I felt this weekend when I was looking for a way to cross flatbush without drenching myself. Yeah.

I'm going to be joined by Van Lathen later where we talk extensively about the third season of Lions, including the last two episodes, which we hadn't gotten a chance to catch up on. Have you finished your Lions? Try not to look too excited about it. Try not to look too excited about that segment. We did talk about a lot of stuff, a lot of topics. But I'm more excited than ever to talk to you because we have Star Wars news and we have an episode of lanterns that I really want to break down.

The first thing I wanted to mention with the Star Wars stuff, Andy, is over the weekend, it broke that John Watts has signed on to direct the first film in what is rumored to be the next trilogy in the Skywalker saga. So Star Wars is just, they just can't quit those crazy Skywalker's. And Simon Kinberg has been working on this project since I think 2018. It is being reported that Daisy Ridley will return to play Ray. So obviously, John Watts has done work with the larger Disney Corporation before in his, you know, Spider-Man efforts. And Simon Kinberg has fingerprints on multiple superhero properties.

This is interesting to me, but I was curious whether or not it was surprising to you. I mean, I think for me, like, it's always fascinating to see, like, companies sort of decide we're not interested in bringing in Denny Villeneuve to do this. We are not interested in having Jeremy Sonier or Zach Krieger or Klozhou or whoever. like it is becoming more of a studio system, more now than ever even before. What's your reaction to this news? For a business side of it, you know, there aren't that many safe hands in which to entrust something that is, let's be frank, quite compromised goods at this point. The larger Star Wars franchise has fallen into such disrepair that we have basically

already agreed to memory hole Mandalorian and Grogu that that was the first Star Wars movie in theaters in six years, seven years. Yes. So the absolute retrenchment to not only a place of, we are just going to go back to making trilogies, we are back in the Skywalker business, which I can say as someone who worked on what may have been the next movie at one point

with Lanterns, writers, producers, Damon, Lindelof, and Justin Britt Gibson, that was not meant to be episode 10. That was one of the mandates. that was not what was going to be the next thing. So to have gone so far back to just like Skywalker's slop, but also the fact that like they are so worried. And so it is such an existential decision about will we ever get to do this again

if we get this wrong, you understand why they went to one of the very few A-list, reliable producers of billion-dollar grossing content. And I say that that's intended to be completely agnostic about the artistic and creative abilities of Simon Kinberg and John Watts, who I think are both. smart, thoughtful, talented guys. It's more that the talent pool they were looking at

was clearly a lot smaller than we'd thought, and so this is in some ways where it inevitably was going to end up. I think that the most important thing in terms of the creative storytelling here is that they just don't do the same blueprint as the previous three sequels and the original three films.

So the prequels aside, if they tell another tortured young prodigy comes of age, is thrown into a intergalactic battle between good and evil represented by a rebellion and an evil empire and blows up a big space station

in the process. I just, I think people will quit wholesale like midway through. I'm excited to tell you, I don't think they're going to do that. Have you ever heard of a storyline that could be referred to as like a lone wolf and cuff?

What if I were to tell you that there's kind of a special kid? So Ray finds like a little, kid and tutors him in the ways of the force. That would probably be number two in my least interested in Star Wars draft. But, yeah, as a Disney story, I think it's notable that Sean Levy, who is the director of the next Star Wars film, Starfighter, which is coming out, I believe, next year with Ryan Gosling, has left Netflix for an overall at Disney.

And they are obviously, whatever they learn from the Kathy Kennedy, era of Lord Miller on solo, then getting fired, and Colin Trevereaux and leaving and Abrams coming on for Rise of Skywalker and everything that happened. And even going back to Tony Gilroy taking over Rogue One, that chaos was the sort of norm there. Clearly, what they want is a solid floor from which to work from. And yeah, yeah, I mean, like, are these films going to be nominated for Best Picture? Highly unlikely. Charitably, I think that is the, the help. way to look at it, that if you, again, this is not my normal position to consider these issues, but if you were going to be sitting in Josh DeMorrow's chair, the era in which you, quote,

unquote, took the meeting. And we know that Kathy Kennedy took a wild, wild assortment of meetings from, that some of which, you know, it got closer to the altar than I think we even realized, whether it was the Steven Soderberg, Ben Solo movie, or the meetings with David Fincher that were, I think, a lot more substantive than had been previously reported, Vince Gilligan. What do you have to show for that? I think you could make the pretty bottom line case that they have very little to show for it and a lot of, you know, a lot of wasted time and probably a lot of wasted development money. So they have decided they aren't going to do that. They have decided to say, like, we can do our best to future proof this franchise by hiring one guy to make another

trilogy, which is what people expect from this, and then, and then here we go. Now, I will say, as someone who once was, who has a recent experience, being someone who's like, you know, what we need here is a safe, steady pair of hands just to get us through this next transitional period to prove that we can restore normal. Yeah. That is why I was a big Joe Biden guy in 2020. And we all know how that turned out. So I'm just saying that, you know, what makes sense in the moment might not make sense long term. And then we can pivot to the fact that, like, I find the fact that they're going to make a Skywalker story, like, really dispiriting, because the inevitable drift back towards Skywalker's has been not only diminishing returns,

it's been outright putrid since when, since Luke showed up on Mando, since that awful end to that next trilogy. You could even say that, you know, that George Lucas's trilogy, which has had a lot of, like, you know, after the fact kind of rose-colored glasses on it. it's certainly not inspiring, but how many podcasts are we going to do? We're like, we're not sure we're inspired by this latest business decision

by the Walt Disney Corporation. There is no limit. How many do you want to do? Do you want me to start skipping Star Wars news? Definitely not. Look at us. We're cooking. Do you want to start talking about whether or not

like Zoe Kazan has like their safest pair of hands for East of Eden? I'm happy to do whatever you want. No, no. Let's talk about lanterns because this is the penalty. Wait, wait, hold on. This is you play into the middle again. I notice you haven't weighed in on your feelings

about the John Watts Star Wars trilogy that is now in the offing. I did. I mean, I just, whether or not it's Skywalker's, it can't be the same Skywalker story. It can't be about someone being raised to be the prince who was promised and saved the galaxy.

If it can take anything, anything, from the and or experience of there are so many different ways to skin this cat with all respect to cats. You can look at it from so many different ways and you can bring in so many different aspects of people's real lived experiences in their lives and start talking about that. It doesn't always have to be the same story over and over again.

They've shown in some ways some discipline in not continually pumping out movies that are like basically fast and furious 11 and you're just like, here's a hologram of Luke fighting with Yoda against like Palpatine who's died four times. You can make a good Star Wars movie. You can make a good Star Wars story. You just have to have the courage of your convictions. But it's hard to like

evaluate it until I think the Skywalker stuff is nerve-wracking but it's like we'll see the first time we get a logline we'll know. Do all Star Wars projects have to inevitably be about Star Wars, about either remaking or undoing what just came before? Is it just locked forever in this almost metatextual relationship with itself? Or, as you said, Kenberg's been working on this for a number of years already. Did they give him time and space to crack a story that might be interesting in and of itself? That might be a worthwhile riproaring space adventure that is just not so completely self-referential that it drowns. I would hope that that's the case.

The only other thing that I would note, and you know, you know, I like to be rigorous in terms of like my internet research because every time I, you know, Google Gemini something, I just know that that is exactly accurate. But I will say, a big Gemini shout there from you. One of the, look, I'm getting alternate funding. Didn't know you were Team Gem. Go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah. Gemini. I'm a tourist.

I could never be, I could never be team. What should I think of this, this Kinberg trilogy, Gemini? I just want to say that I don't understand where this comes from, and I can't imagine that it's genuine or not bot farming, but John Watts is not loved by the fandom community, which I don't understand where that came from. I do think it's bots. But is that like I don't think that Destin Daniel Cretton is funding it.

Like it's just bizarre that like concurrent with brand new day excitement and like Zendaya Tom Holland, Mary Jane. I know. You'll see tweets that are like John Watts should be in like, they should reopen Alcatraz. for John Watts for what he did. He should be in cinema jail for the way that he kept us from seeing. In the moment, we all love those movies.

And so I don't really understand what that's about. I'm curious. I'm very suspicious now of any wave of like, I'm getting so many slow horses edits right now. I mean, I just need to not be on any of these platforms, but so many of like, look at River, look at Sid, 18 shots of like, and I'm like, who made this?

Why is this on my feed? This person has no posts other than slow horses posts. Yeah. And you're just like, this is somewhere like a lonely PC running Gemini is just making slow horses edits. I will say that a worrying amount of my daughter's YouTube consumption is fan edits. Like that is a major plank of her media platform the same way that like my father read the New Republic and the New Yorker. You know, she's like, here's some Zendaya edits for like a good. good hour of every night just to see how the other side is representing things. So we're clearly on the

back foot with that one. Hey, before we go to Lanterns, I was just curious, like, have you been watching, have you been keeping up Slow Horses? Have you been keeping up on youth? Like, are you avidly watching TV on this trip or just your assigned reading? I've been too busy to do much television watching, but I'm going to keep up with those shows because I really like them. Is Slow Horses, is the third episode up yet? Can we talk about it Thursday? We can talk about it on Thursday. Let's talk about that on Thursday. Youth, I believe I missed the third episode last night,

but I know you and Joanna talked about it, so I don't want to be... Yeah, no, I was just curious how... That was more of a personal check-in than it is a professional, like... Oh, thank you. Yeah, I was just like... I have to say, if you want the truth,

I have been... I have found that the jet lag in general, like, work stress-related insomnia has been alleviated by the second half of the second season of the paper. So maybe I was a little quick to judge it. Because it has been a very... It's like a very gentle kind of...

like, I'm enjoying it just enough that I don't mind if I fall asleep, which is a genre of television that, like, if Sam S-Males still listens to this pod, he just did the, the Marino, like, ripping his headphones off when I said that. I do think it's an important, unrecognized genre. I feel that way about horror movies set on snow, like snowy mountains. Hmm. Like, any horror in the snow right now, no, I'm like, that just lulls me right to sleep in a really beautiful way.

Like, if a chiller... I can't wait for your visit to the East Coast later. If the weather turns, you're going to be prime picking. Lanterns episode seven, written by Damon Lindeloff and Tom King. I believe this one was called the Jordan Boys Legacy. The Jordan Boys Legacy. And let's get right into it, man. I thought this was a very well-done episode of TV.

You basically can start with the Howl Flashback and Jordan family being as complicated as the Stewart family. we could talk about John Stewart, True Detective. I have a lot to say about Noah's offensive line. As do I. That was my first... I texted you about that. I was so worked up.

I was pretty close to breaking the seal and texting Damon and being like, come on, Doc. There's no way this kid's going to Michigan with that line. I would just say that he would be... He would spend most of the season in the fencing position.

Yes. If those were the guys who were guarding him. And then the sort of prolonged what felt like a dream sequence, but was in fact Anton's planet that Sinestro had been trapped on. So where would you like to start? This episode joins episode two for me as being the, in some ways, the best expression of what I think is the best outcome for lanterns,

which is a really, really successful and still surprising marriage between the shoe leather, procedural, good, high elite television bones that exists in that writer's room. And the absolutely holy shit mind fuck of, yes, in this storage locker in Nebraska

is a portable hole into another dimensional planet. Like, it straddled that line so nimbly that it felt like it was working in a genre that has existed for many years when in fact it hasn't. So

for that reason, I didn't feel like it was an episode that, you know, was sometimes at war with itself or with its own conceit as some of the previous ones have been. I don't know if that means this is like, I'm not trying to lay down a marker and say this was the best episode of the season. I just felt like it captured some of that unique magic that to me is the best path forward for a show that I am really enjoying. I think we're getting the payoff from some of the stretching that they do with the narrative and some of the pretzels that they bend themselves in. into in that writer's room to give us multiple timelines to do jumping around different people's POV from their childhoods to show backstories and show flashbacks and give us all these little slices of life because now the cumulative effect is it's really cool to have seen this many different John Stewart's in just seven hours of television and now that we have what I think

is being affectionately described as the halogram. who's basically a character on the show now. It's cool to see Kyle Chandler get to do, you know, grumpy old man, cocky young pilot, nice version of himself, you know. And the same goes for Kelly MacDonald. You know, this is a show that probably had a extinction level event a little early in its season,

you know, with losing Garrett Dillon Hunt, losing Paul Ben Victor, losing a lot of like these kind of, counterweights that the show had had to say nothing of Zoe. And now it's kind of like... I can say Zoe Eresier. No, no. And it wasn't even trying to.

It's just more... I guess in the aftermath of that, it really cleared out space for these two characters to push into fully developed lead roles rather than just chasing mysteries. I've never seen a show do this with how it uses the time that it has.

And we were joking a few weeks ago about that concept of a surf Dracula and how all modern television shows have to tell the origin story of the thing that you think you're watching the television show for and that joke, that was just a joke tweet,

but it was in reference to the fact that, oh, no, this is a show about John Stewart Green Lantern, but he's not going to get the ring until the end of the season or season two. As it turns out, the real surf Dracula was the friends we made along the way.

No, the real surf Dracula was the buddy cop dynamic between this Hal and this John that I think when we first heard the log line, I thought we were getting from the beginning. I thought that the basis of the show was going to, the premise of the show was going to rest on whatever chemistry could be created between Aaron Pierre and Kyle Chandler. Instead, what they did, it was really surprising and I think maybe ultimately successful

is they kind of revved the car backwards for a while so you could see tons of friction. You could see it across time that it would take, John Stewart, a lot more growth to reach a place of acceptance and also wit and humor and life. And the payoff, frankly, felt earned to me. I mean, I was thrilled at the way they were interacting and emoting and being more honest with each other. And I was like, well, this is a dynamic that this can go. Like, this has, this has real range on it. This show has gotten, I think there's been a couple of moments. I was fairly confident that when Zoe got zeroed out by that satellite, that that was not the end of Zoe.

I was fairly confident when, you know, we first see Howl dead at the end of episode one that we were going to see a lot more of how. But it's had a lot of fun extrapolating and doing yes and with its hospital ball narratives that they throw where they're just like, this may work or this may put a guy in the emergency room. And I guess my example from this episode,

what would be that dimensional portal that they find in a storage locker that you mentioned because you can really live or die on what's on the other side of that portal. And I was like, oh, that's where the money went. You know what I mean? Like, that looks really cool. This is a very interesting idea for not only an alien world,

but a fate of a people. You know, this idea that they were leaping off of this sky city because of the toxic gases. that the Manhunter had released there and that those same gases were still present and were affecting John. And the, you know, the imagery and the

reappearance of of John's father worked within the context of that story. That there was like some sort of hallucination going on and what he needed to do when he got to the other side of this lake and got to Sanestro. I thought all of

of it really, really fit together really well. First off, that planet had big warmier vibes. I don't know if you remember. That's where the, I believe it was the Soul Stone was located, where the Red Skull tempted Clinton, Natasha. You know, it was some real, you know, I know that storyline has meant a lot to you. I think the agents of shield are outside of your door right now.

I'm just saying, no, look, like, we've been overly crediting our friend Damon with some of the bolder ideas. And again, I have no idea who generated the way that this place would look or that this was Anton's home planet or that the city was in the sky and the orientation of the world is something that John didn't understand. But that is a pure comic book idea in the best way. That is a Grant Morrison idea. That is a Tom King idea. That is an Al Ewing idea. That is a like, what can we do to be as big and bold as possible? And so that even the words that they're saying, they can laugh, they can laugh at themselves as they're saying them. You know,

there's an Einstein, Rosen, whatever that is, sludge hole inside of this, like, whatever, you're laughing with a giddiness of like childlike invention and discovery, and I loved it. And I loved the, I love the way it was featured. I love it was explained. And then, you know, again, it's the not necessarily glamorous work in a TV show of how can we use this decision, this big, bold decision as a vehicle for backstory, as a vehicle for a vehicle for a emotional check-ins, you know? And so it's the crazy-making gas that gives John visions and Hal saves him and his father's back. And it's like, it's the kind of thing where you can kind of hum along to the melody, even though the setting is so specific and so weird. And again,

I don't mind that. I just think it's a really interesting collision of high-minded invention and kind of day-to-day practicality that when the show works, it just works. Or as the guys at the Gene Store I was in yesterday said, it's Lantern Sunday. It's Lantern Sunday. And I was like... Were they saying that, knowing that that was your profession, was to some of your profession was to talk about lanterns? You should have seen... I Kool-Aid manned out of the dressing room to be like,

actually, tonight's episode is pretty good, guys. Oh, did you let him know? You saw it already? And what was the reaction? I just wanted to like... They were like, sir, those jeans are free. They were like, sir, please button the jeans before you emerge. Might I suggest a 31 way instead?

Those seem a little, yeah. No, but I was kind of into the fact that these guys, I don't need to call them arbiters of cool. They were pretty cool dudes, but like that it had, this show had reached some sort of like cultural velocity for them that they were looking forward to it. That's cool.

Yeah, there's a couple of notes I want to hit here as terms of getting ready for the finale. But before we do, I do want to talk about the Noah Hat selection scene. Thank you. Thank you. Either this is a great, oversight in casting

and that like they were shooting it let's say I think they had a California tax credit for this one right so they were shooting it here yes they did what were they like these these five guys who earlier in the day were like trying out for

Sterling Point season two or something but like yeah in a pinch we can use them as Noah's offensive line Noah would have 250 pound offensive line of Weinman. If he is about that life, if he is the savior of Rushville, he is a virgin out of Nebraska. I mean, he's essentially Dylan Raola, you know, where like he's, oh, actually, I think Dylan Rayola wanted to go to school in Florida. Like, if he has stayed home to be this, this dude,

he has got protectors. He has got bodyguards. He does not have three Jordan Catalanos looking to like, duck any smoke from opposing D lines. Also, this is a team historically that has occasionally faced aliens. Am I right? Like, there's been a lot of drama around this program, you know, over the years. Well, now, now hold on, maybe that's interesting. Maybe his original, like, low center of gravity, you know, like five Willie Lampkins in front of him. Maybe after the shenanigans a few years ago.

Right. Oh, I guess it was 10 years ago, so it's not like they're... I'm going to say, wait, so I'm pitching you something where they were in their 10th red shirt season. They're just like, we just got to protect them. The NCAA is basically like, you know, given everybody a free pass. It was during COVID. We can't understand it. It doesn't count.

They have more high school eligibility. Let's get turning it out of jambles another year. I just think it doesn't work like that. Like, they would, people would move to this town if he was the chosen one, right? to like protect him and to ride in his coattails and get a get a D1 scholarship. It's also an interesting collection of schools that he's musing over like because I think it's Navy, Michigan and Nebraska. But he does want to be the president, which he mentioned, I believe, the previous episode,

which definitely tells me that he is a manhunter. Does Navy have a lot of NIL money? Like in the Trump era, you literally go to Navy to be a president. Yeah. No. Okay. I guess, actually that's true. If it's 2026 and Trump's moving a lot of Bitcoin around,

perhaps Navy could get in the... That's what I'm saying. They could go get Camario from Mississippi State. Are there... You're watching, by the way, you're watching way way too much college football on these weekends. It was on. How many great statesmen and presidents have emerged?

Don't judge me for my hobbies, okay? Like, I don't like that. You've done it twice recently. And I am very supportive of you. It's not judgment. I'm just looking at you with wonder and a tinge of jealousy over your wide open skies. You know what I mean?

Like you just have ability. You have time to watch these things and to get pretty familiar with some of the players. Wait, I had a question for you. Andy, you'll be like, did you see Willie Lampkin went to Chili's on Wednesday night and ordered the like appetizer platter? Like you know so much about it. But do you know when I learned that?

that's when I leave the writer's room and glance at my phone while walking to the bathroom. I can learn everything about what Willie Lampkin did that day at practice. I don't know what actually happens in the games. I wanted to ask you, though, how many great statesmen were hurricanes? You know what I mean? Does the University of Miami traditionally offer a path to power? You know what? You say that, but I do think one of, I think like Ken Walsh or something was like a congressman.

I don't know if I agreed with his political ideology. but right i guess in the sense of like you know important senator tommy tuberville i guess anybody can be anything so you know i'm thinking back on some historic uh canes teams and and i mean this is what i'm saying it was a rich rich fertile land for people to be picking u.s senators i mean clinton portis willis mcgahey you know yeah uh Andre johnson like plenty of plenty of guys i would have loved to have saluted um he would have canvassed for you would have you would have been a, you would have a bit a, a, a bundler. Yeah, I do think that is a massive oversight.

And again, it's a sign that you're, you, you offered your services to the wider Hollywood creative community years ago as just the sports consultant of like, these are the guys in your pickup game in the prison scene in Mr. Robot. Like, let's, I've got notes. And so similarly, like, I just want to know what kind of offense they're running with these windmills in front of him. I think he's running spread. I think he's running spread.

because I think the idea is that Noah is like a kind of Jackson dart, maybe a little bit more upstairs, but like a Jackson dart style. Yeah, because I think that the, but I think that runs counter to what he may be, Chris, which is a manhunter style QB, in which you just methodically locate the weakest link in the defense and pick on it, right? Isn't that what a manhunter does when he or she arrives in a town?

Yeah. So it's like, it would basically be like, you know, locating who Adory Jackson was covering on last year's Eagles. No disrespect. I'm just saying I'm just trying to make it make sense. I send you off with some questions that need answers

heading into the finale. Or I hope that we have this answered when we get out of the finale. Who killed Hal Jordan? Do you have a clubhouse favorite? Obviously, Hall O'Grame is worried about Kerry. I thought that was an interesting steer.

But probably because it became a plot point that was then walked back slightly with the suggestion that maybe the Hallogram said that because he was avoiding what the darker secret that might be underneath it, which is that it was suicide. I think it's probably safe to say that those were red herrings.

If your theory about Noah being a mini manhunter is right, then it may have been him. Yeah, that's in the mix. And maybe that's the echoes that Hallow Graham was feeling from Kerry was like, it's the right family, it's the wrong person. Second question, why was Sinestro stuck on Anton's planet? Who put him there and how do you get out of jail?

I mean, I think, again, that was the Red Skull on Vormier. You know, I feel like you should rewatch. I know Endgame is in theaters now, so I feel like you could probably check it out and get that fun. I went to Endgame in theaters two times this weekend. We all choose to do the work that we have in front of us in our own way. I did see Primetime this weekend. I'm jealous of that.

We're not talking about it because I don't want to spoil it. Okay. You can do it on the other parts of the podcast. What? I heard you broke up a child sex thing. That's right. And he got renewed. I am, this is a question I even don't want to speculate on because I love it.

Because I am just excited about the way the show has used Sinestro thus far as a super villain. But as someone haunting it, maybe attempting to Machiavellian style, Machiavelli style, like control things. But I was also curious, is he just addled? Was he not looking? Could he not see through his beggars robes that he was grabbing Hal Jordan?

You know, because I think that that's, that's his son, kind of. So I'm curious about what he thought was happening. That's the Jordan Boys legacy. Is it distinctive musk? Here is a question I need an answer to,

because I need to see whether or not this was a pointless distraction or not. what's up with this waitress and her blackmail and I should say survivor of of the siege of Rushville like but I

thought it was weird that John was just like yeah for sure let me go get you 300 grand and then he gets the approval and gets the voice note he gets it and I he's more liquid than I thought honestly I think the reason why I just don't find

like her being like I'll tell Sheriff Kerry that you punched Hal Jordan in the nose to be like, so what? Like, we've all done some things and seen some things. So I want to see where this leads because otherwise it feels like a kind of pointless red herring. Can I ask you a question? What is the number?

Because you and I are only children, as we know. But in a way, we are brothers to each other. I'd like to think. It's really nice. I call you from New York and say, listen, don't ask questions, but I need X amount of

money wired to me next 24 hours. And his brother is just like, I'll think about it and hangs up on, which is, I think, is a fair response. But then he does come down on the side of OK. Well, you're asking two different things. What is the number? I think John, that's John's money. Apparently, a fabulously successful architecture firm if they have 300K and liquidity to sitting around. Are you asking? If their 2026 is the same as ours, I think that there is a boom time for panic basements. Right. And so. If your question is, is there a watch slush fund that I can wire you money from? The answer is no.

If the question is, will I send you my personal wealth to bail you out of some situation that you are not explaining? Because I have a bad feeling that I would send you this money and then you'd be like posting pictures from the Delta One lounge. You know, like? I wouldn't post. I don't post the pictures, but I do send you some live looks. I would cut the check. You know I would cut the check. I appreciate that. You're also famously liquid. So I think that you'd be the guy I'd call. I do question if there's not a slush fund because all I know is I started working in New York and then Kaya mailed me these just like crispy new microphones. I got a ring light the size of Saturn in here. I think that we have more at our fingertips that I believed possible. So we should we should investigate that. Are the Manhunters really extinct? This kind of, you know, this has been a running conversation over the course of the season. that Zoe was not the last one. Is Howl really dead?

Like the Howl? It strikes me that it would be difficult to write Kyle Chandler off this show if they were going to do more seasons. Oh, yeah. No way. I do think that just as a appreciation for what has been a really surprising

and I think unique journey of a first season of a show that, as we've said many times, had so many different mouths to feed. I think it's worth appreciating that should the show return which I think it is likely to do. Certainly the characters will return in the larger gunverse, and I think Aaron Pierre is officially in the Superman sequel. It's worth just noting that this might be

our last go-round with this flavor of lanterns. Yes. Which isn't to say it wouldn't be good going forward. It might retain the core cast. It might retain the same sort of relationship to the larger DCU. But I think, you know, the odds of this power trio running the show and really wrestling with what it would mean to take the time to introduce characters in this way. I think I would be surprised if a second season even attempted to do that. Yeah, just because of the amount of firepower that they had in that room. And then the connective tissue that will be required coming out of a Superman sequel and whatever else is going to happen.

So just a moment to appreciate what we got, which is pretty remarkable, I would say. Like it is in a really, really strong place for a finale, which even two weeks ago, I don't know if I would have said because we were marveling over the fact that they basically ended the season already with the big Rushville incident and restarted. Well, I want to end this segment with you because I want to let you get back to work. It was great seeing you. Are you going to stay up to watch the Eagles tonight? Yes.

My entire day is based around that. I'll eat lunch then. Are you kidding me? And you'll eat dinner on the bones of Case Keenum. Yeah. And I'll eat dinner next time I get to the Delta Lounge, thanks to your Lurges. I'll be fine. Thanks, Greenwald.

I'll talk to you on Thursday. we'll do a little bit of a little bit of slow horses and, you know, hopefully get to some East of Eden pretty soon. That's coming out. We'll do a bigger show Thursday. Thursday evening on Netflix. Great to see you, man. Talk to you soon.

I'm joined by Van Lathen. We needed to do this, even though we're a weekly on the Lioness finale. You were in Sweden so we couldn't hook up and talk about the final op. Dude, what a season of TV. and one that you and I have enjoyed together and we didn't want to leave people without getting in the cage one more time. If it's okay. If it's okay.

If it's okay with Tracy, we'll talk about why in this. I don't want to do that right now. Because this is the watch. This isn't the big picture. We can save it for the end. We can talk college football and Tracy. We're chopping it up. Yeah.

What did you think of the end of the season? I thought the finale was a tad bit underwhelming. Okay. It's a tad bit underwhelming. Okay. Can you set this? stage of where you watched it? Did you watch it like in international travel? I watched it in

Sweden. Okay. Which changes the experience totally. Sure. Right? Yeah. You know, you're looking around. It's in Swedish. Yeah. Yeah. So you're watching. So look, so I watched it while I was traveling for the Spotify Summit in Sweden's in a very nice hotel room. Until diplomat in Sweden. Oh, nice. Nice.

And it was one of those situations where where you are removed from your company. zone and you feel like you have no distractions when they're traveling no distractions yeah everybody knows kind of not to call you're in a different time zone it is you and the goddamn show so i was locked in to lioness the finale and after the highs of this season which saw joe in such harrowing situations it just kind of felt like they ran out of gas to me it felt like there was an idea of where it should end.

And that Taylor Sheridan and the guy obviously created and wrote this series was like, I want this to tie together to the first season. I want to bring back some of the villains

of the past season's villains is a relative term. And I want to emphasize that the war has come home for Joe all the way back into her actual home where she's been,

there was an attempted kidnapping or attempted murder, a kidnapping, and now her husband has left her. Right. And then we get this finale where we find out that this guessing game that's been going on for the last couple of episodes of who's behind Joe's kidnapping is finally we find out it's Aaliyah from the first season. It's the daughter of the man that Cruz, the original lioness of this series, or I guess the second lioness, takes out.

Right. And I'm Yusuf. What? Bassim Yusuf. Yes. And they had that. And they were like, okay, like, that's the idea that we want to end on. But they did so much complicated shit in the beginning that, like, getting there was like, if you watched the route the car took to get there, it was so wild.

And I think that's embodied in what is both my favorite and least favorite moment of the entire season. Martin Donovan, who plays Nicole Kidman's husband on the show, Caitlin's husband. Do we ever get his name? I don't know. I think we do because... Is it like Ellis or something? Well, he says, well, you know what? When Kelly calls Michael Kelly's character, when he calls, he says, does he say let me speak to your husband or does he say the character's name?

In any case, is Martin Donovan. Right, Martin. Who is very good at playing dudes like this, you know, like kind of like shadowy executives. He was like this intent. You know, Joe has been rescued by this point by Cruz and the crew in Texas. We'll get to that. And Martin Donovan does this thing. where he's like, you know, you and me, Caitlin,

we don't really ever cross a line in terms of sharing information and in terms of asking each other about each other's work. And Martin Donovan is an analyst of some kind who works for like probably a hedge fund, a data-driven hedge fund. Seems like he's connected to the intelligence community or the State Department in a private sector capacity. One that makes a lot of money, I think.

One that makes a lot of money, but also is privy to a lot. of info. Yeah. And then he's like, so the State Department asked us to like basically run an analysis of what just happened

and figure out who did it. And the way that he tells her about this, it would be instant divorce. He obviously has like the conclusion that he has come to which is that Ukraine is behind Joe's kidnapping.

And he's like, who could have benefited? And she's just like, I don't know. Like maybe Afghanistan, maybe this, maybe that. And he's just like,

but who would have the wherewithal? And she's like, well, I don't know, maybe Russia, maybe China, maybe Iran. He's like, but who would be able to activate agents? And he's like, tell her. Right. You know the answer. Right. A CIA agent just got kidnapped on American soil.

But is there some, is he not supposed to say it like that? Is there some sort of conflict of interest? It's not like he's like she came to the conclusion by himself. He says we're going to break the sort of barrier that we have between us where we don't share information. Right. and he immediately puts himself into it. Here's the thing, though. He's wrong.

He's wrong. There's never anything. There's no acknowledgement that the world's smartest man who sits there and it's just like the Katareis are taking over our universities. But that's not what really scares me. Right. AI scares me. This dude is wrong. It was Alia in a bathtub calling in favors with two phones.

Which, by the way, Joe Dumar's style. Somebody should have been able to peep that. Somebody should have been like, okay, who are all of Joe's enemies? Yes. That are left on the board from ops gone by. Dude, she's the lioness. Who have the lioness has taken out? Right.

Who are their family and friends who are still in action? Right. Do they have a lot of money and a grudge? Right. But they're so smart, they're dumb. They go through this entire elaborate thing. then gets our Ukrainian Bay killed. By the way, I got to say something, man.

That's just like... I got to say, in this episode, Ashot Sheridan TV is back. Yeah. Just straight. I know. Just like such a long her getting out of the shower. Right. We just...

Sheridan's like, hey, man, she's about to go. You're not going to see her again. Before she goes, I'm going to give you guys a little something. Yeah. Enjoy. Okay. As shot. Alia. As shot into the season.

A shot. A shot. season, right? Exactly. Just ass shot Sheridan, give you the ass, right? Then she's out of here. That character dies. When she legitimately was trying to protect her country. And America. And America, the entire failure of the intelligence community summed up in the death of one character, but not only that, carnage in a random cafe place where African diplomats are killed, all because Joe is strung out on her grief. still giving her the playbook.

And they're like, your call. You're Davis Webb. She legitimately just came home from kidnapping. But she's like, you know what? Go for it, Joe.

Green light. Green light. Do whatever you need. And she makes that wrong call. People die. This episode, and all of that stuff would have worked, if it wouldn't have been so

scattershot. It just didn't seem like all of that connected to the grandiosity of the plot throughout the entire season. Because remember, there was, who is the mole? Is there somebody giving information? Yes. Why do we know so much about the way Joe is moving around?

The kidnap is it Iran? Is it Ukraine? Like, we go to Cuba. We go down to Guantanamo Bay. And when we go there, it's just luck that some guy sees Joe. That day tort, like, but not torture. I mean tortured earlier in the season. Yeah. Right. Some guy sees Joe. It's like, hey, you, black woman, Irish name. I'm like, what the fuck? So we get to the end of it. And I actually like the thread of next season being about her chickens coming home

to the rules. I think that's actually awesome, right? But it just seemed like more work should have been done throughout the season to get us here. Still a fantastic season. This legitimately was the only episode where they missed for me.

Yeah, because the penultimate episode, the one where they get her back, I'd put that shootout up against almost anything I've seen on TV in the last 10 years. Like, like, up there. Maybe not up there with, like, the True Detective Season 1 shootout, but as far as, like, action set pieces go in a non-genre,

like, non-fantasy, like, Game of Thrones, Last of Us kind of way. That shootout in Texas was incredible. Like, with the helicopter coming in and everything. See, I love that shootout. I still like the shootout from which season was it where Taylor Sheridan once again comes in they crossed the border.

Mexico. Huh? The second season. Oh. Right? Oh, I feel like it was the second season as well because that's when the congresswoman that got and kidnapped.

Yes. Right. So those two are the crowning jewels, but all of that stuff, it was working in this season. And at the end, this almost seemed like a backdoor pilot for the next season of the show.

Like, we're going to tip you down. So this has been like a huge thing that people have been talking about after the Emmys and a bunch of studies that have been like people are losing interest in TV shows if they don't come back within a year of their final episode. Like if you make people wait two, three years for stuff, there you'll have every once in a while you all have a severance that people are like, I'll wait because I need to know everything. I need to find out what happened. But that what happens is most of the time is like even for something like Widows Bay, which obviously just won a bunch of Emmys, I'm sure Apple. gave a second season relatively early in the process, but not so early that Katie Dipple, when she came and talked to us,

was like, I haven't started writing yet. You know, like when she talked to us after the finale, she was like, I have not started writing the second season yet. Taylor is like one of the only dudes out there who's kind of got like,

you can make as many seasons of this as you want, you know? And so he at least was able to make an authentic cliffhanger in this third season, which we usually don't get those kinds of, things anymore. People feel the need to wrap everything up because they don't know if they're coming back. This also was the season where the show became distinctly about Joe. Like this season is about her. Other seasons in the show, she is the eyes and ears by which we

observe this world. But there's a new lioness. There's the rag tag group of people. There's a new enemy. This season is about her and then it expands the show around her. She's kidnapped her family, all of the bodies she's laid, the red in her ledger. That is what this season is about. I think it's also like a very big Zoe's Haldana season because they could have told this story in a linear fashion where she gets the attempted kidnapping or the attempted assassination early, does all her shit, and then midway through the season gets kidnapped. and then she's basically off the board for the second half of the season

because she's getting moved around and instead they're like no let's tell it in these two timelines so that we can max out Zoe Sal Danya and she's doing action shit but she's also in danger she's doing detective stuff but she's also still

like this mysterious kind of like rabbi to these like lionesses and like showing them the way so it's like a good use of her, if perhaps a confusing way to tell a story. Hot button issues openly monologued about, but not really discussed or debated. This season include foreign, largely Chinese, Russian and Katari influence in the American

university system and media. Yeah. Corruption among the Ukrainian political class was a late breaking curveball from Latin. The origins of COVID, China pushing disinformation to pit Americans against one another, the evils of AI, and very, very, very briefly, a real world mention of America's invasion and toppling of the Venezuelan government. Yeah, yeah.

You did the same thing with Venezuela is what the Russians tell us. The Russian and Morgan Freeman's basically like, tusha. Yeah, he goes, hey, we shouldn't have done that. It's interesting that, like, what do you think of that collection of stories that they're talking about? Like, it's not quite Fox News.

Right. And it's not quite, I don't know, it's not conspiracy. So can I give you the cynical read? The cynical read is obviously it's propaganda being pushed by the political worldview of the careers of the show. Yeah. But there's also another read. And I stretch my brain to consider this read as well, that what they are trying to do is legitimately give us the mind frame of these people. Of these people.

Yeah. who have to believe in the single virtue of America, American freedom, and not just that, but American domination. So in order to put your life on the line for the country. You have to believe you're fighting for something bigger than you are and more important than you are. Right. But like not just American freedom, which is what she sells to her children. America first, not in the America first way that we see thrown around in political spheres now,

but that the world is better, the greater hand that America has in it. American exceptionalism, perfect way to put, a better way to put it, the way that it is put. And in order to do that, you have to believe in the shadowy enemy everywhere else and in the fact that they hate us because they ate us. So every single country falls into that sort of designation. So everything you hear is, number one, the things that America does and has done aren't really so bad in the context of the entire history of the world. There have been assassinations going back to Jesus Christ and all of that.

That's right. So every once in a while. They're the first assassinations. They're the first assassin is in the bike. Right. Every once in a while, you got to take a motherfucker out. We didn't invent it. We just got to do the same thing that they did back in the day, right? And then the other side of it is our way of life that we've tried to export

and change the world is under constant threat. Yep. And you watching this show, you get up and you go to work. and you come home. But somewhere there's somebody who their entire job is watching the wall. Yeah, the few good men's speech. Right, exactly.

And that person has to take these threats seriously. Right. I think the reason why it's confusing whatever you want to, however you want to describe like the political and social and ideological viewpoints of the characters because I think you're exactly right,

is that if you were going to do this job, you would have to look at, the country is a thing worth defending, saving, promoting, believing in. So a lot of what they're talking about is that the things that are wrong with America are seated by outside evil forces. NGOs with shadowy financing, university students graduating and believing in socialism and communism, hysteria over a cold, which is kind of the attitude the show takes towards COVID, and getting involved in what they deem

non-essential or non-beneficial armed conflicts like the Ukrainian fight against Russia, stuff like that. Which is the genesis of Joe's entire strife in this season, or so we think, right? She gets involved in that, and it actually complicates something that she would be able to see. Think about that. Thematically, if not for her getting involved in that op,

she probably would have been able to see the actual problem, which is her past. But because she got involved in that war that really has nothing to do with us, it complicated everything else, things that we should be able to see. And that to me is kind of like a microcosm of how people feel about the Ukraine situation.

And I went back and rewatch bits of the first episode of this season and the action, I mean, the Ukraine stuff is pretty well rendered. It's very, very good action stuff. and I forgot that she basically turns to Cruz after they get the Russian general and she's like, what the fuck are we doing here? This isn't even our fight.

And I'm like, this is where you're drawing the line? Like, you've been going around hiring women to assassinate people all over the world. Like, you think this is like the... And I guess it's kind of good because it illustrates just how almost futuristic the Ukrainian conflict has become with like drone warfare and everything like that. Yeah.

But in any case, there's something that happens with all these discussions of these topics where people usually say them. And in most dramatic writing, there would be an opposition force. There would be somebody being like, I don't know about that. I think that you're wrong about that. Or here's why I think something that you don't think. And in this show, in this season, there's no pushback. Now, we made jokes about this where somebody would be in the office and be like, what? what did this motherfucker just say?

But it is kind of like either a flaw or an attribute, I can't decide what, of his writing, that people are, like, they're just unchecked. And it makes more room for their, like, new, like their detailed rundown of how the Qataris have ruined Princeton.

Right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You know what? A lot of people ask that know my politics, like how I can enjoy this show. And the answer is very simple. It's because I believe in my politics.

I like actually believe in them. Sure. So them being challenged does not bother me at all. As a matter of fact, other people's perspectives on them don't bother me at all. The only thing that bothers me

is when people lie about what it is that they're doing. This show is truthful in what it is trying to do. Now, a lot of that stuff is bullshit that I don't agree with, but the reality is I share my community with a bunch of people who do believe that. So I'm pretty confident

in the way that I view the world. Therefore, this show, like doesn't really bother me. I mean, before, you know, I'll go watch Avengers Endgame where a billionaire saves the universe, right? Like where a billionaire, a guy who's, he's a smart guy with a bunch of money,

saves the entire universe. He's an arms dealer. He's an arms dealer. And he saves not just this world, but he saves trillions of lives, right? He's talking about, you know, propaganda. So, like, none of this stuff really bothers me that much, especially if they're real about it.

And this show is. This show is honest about what it is and who it's catering to. And something else. There's enough of a human dynamic here, like at play around this stuff. Like when Nicole Kidman and her husband are going back and forth, the thing that I think about more even then, should I say, the information is what must that marriage be like? Like these people who are connected to Joe,

they call her boss, this maternal fucking connection that they have to her, throughout the entire season, they were really going through it when they thought they would never see her again. And all of that human stuff is really well done in the show. All of the connections,

the little, do we like Kyle? Is Kyle a hero? It's Kyle of Bill. That's a really good character. All of that stuff is really done. Do you want to see the Kyle in Africa spinoff? Definitely. I definitely want to see the Kyle and Africa spinoff.

It almost seemed like they were setting it up. They kind of did when Michael Kelly was just like, you know what's going to happen now? we have to go intervene in Molly, you're going to go. I was like, Lord. Um, yes. I,

I think that there is also something unique about this series, uh, whether or not it's entirely intentional or not, which is that a lot of moments get no sold. Um, for people who don't know, that's like a, it's like a term when like,

if Van is like, I have an incredible idea theory about Star Wars and I just like, I'm like, cool. And then I just move on to the next topic. Which is the worst thing you can do in a tandem performance in wrestling. If you know sell something, they'll actually kick you in your fucking face because you're supposed to sell somebody else to make somebody else look good. But there are a lot of moments that get tossed out.

For instance, like late breaking in this season, I think. Cruz becomes kind of like fixated on being the one to save Joe because she is like, this person made me who I am and I actually like who I am now. And so much so that she does. multiple solo prayers begging for the opportunity to be the one who gets to assassinate the people who have taken Joe.

Right. That's really just like moved past. You know, like obviously when she rescues Joe and Joe's like, I owe you now and Cruz is like, you don't owe me anything. But can I tell you something? The end of the show made that stuff make more sense to me.

Yes, well now that you know Cruz is going to be in the jackpot next season. It was Cruz's op to get Alia. and not only the op, they were oping the shit out of each other. So that's like an example of something where it's like, oh, that's cool. Like you can then read into the super story,

like the macro stuff. The stuff that gets kind of no sold is when they murder and a Ukrainian woman who's done nothing but help the United States. And then as if we're just like, God damn, I wish I had that info. As if we didn't realize that they killed her

because they come back to the meeting room and Joe is like, happened, everybody else was like, oh shit. She knew too much. Yeah, you fucking... She knew too much. It's like, they look... Is this good fellas?

Everybody else was like, hey, man, can't make an omelet while, you know. Yeah. And so we know that, right? And that's like, oh, shit, that sucks. We like that character. Then we have to see her dead body as Ringgo the dog finds her. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, man.

Yeah. Now they're really letting us know the cost of existing inside of this world. I'm not so sure that. They got there with that character. What that actually did, which is another thing that I have to give the show credit for, because everyone in this world extols the virtue of who they are and what they are doing. It showed that they were corrupt. They were wrong and they murder an innocent person.

Which is what Morgan Freeman says to Michael Kelly. He's like, don't ever think it's anything but murder. Right. Like you can tell yourself whatever you want about military action or this or that, but it's murder. So these super powerful people murdered somebody with their incompetence, which is another thing that the show kind of does every once in a while that lets you know that despite all of the political packaging of the show, there still are consequences to existing inside of this world.

So season four will be, I mean, this happens in action movies, especially where the villain has an opportunity to get their revenge, but they want their revenge in the exact... circumstances that they want it that they've imagined. Aaliyah has like 150 opportunities to kill Joe. Yeah. But she wants the entire lioness team. She wants to get them all.

To come to her. Yeah. I don't know how she's going to do that now that she's done the kidnapping bit. But it will be interesting to see. Like, I'm sure he has like an ending in mind. I bet this is going to be the last season. It would line up with when he's leaving for Peacock. when Taylor leaves for Universal.

But this is such a weird show that I like, I can't, I'll never stop watching this. We're getting robbed of the entire Lioness Universe, which I would love to see. I know. Right. But as somebody who's gone through the like Taylor show is not written by Taylor, it just doesn't hit the same. Okay. Well, I get it. Oh, because I haven't tried like, you know, so Marshalls.

He wrote Yellowstone for the whole thing, but somebody else is writing Dutton, yeah. So she wants to kidnap a senior CIA case officer, not just a senior CIA case officer, but one that knows where all of the bodies are buried, that the American government will go through incredible lengths to get back. And she's going to keep trying. The question for the next season is, number one, is she going to get the opportunity to kidnap Joe, which you almost think that she would have to for this to make sense, right? Joe's gonna, is Joe gonna hit the bottle? Like her family's going, what's Joe's gonna be into? Is Joe gonna hit the bottle? Because her family's gone, she's by ourselves.

Right. She's got fucking, she starts hitting lower low a little hard. Going crazy. People are like, Joe, you're spiraling. You don't fucking know what I've been through. She's fucking. She's drinking, she's pouring a bottle on her rancet toe, the whole fucking shit. She's only got nine toes now.

Right, she's going on. Yeah, and I'm saying, right there. Is Aaliyah from the first season a compelling enough villain like that one singular thing that's not what the show is about this show is about layers upon layers upon layers of political espionage I thought that the idea that like basically

there's a black market for like ops and that you can go out and hire Belarusans and Iranians and all these people to do your dirty work that was a pretty cool world to go into pretty interesting world to go into I don't know if Alia is the one that I've been like that's the Joker

that's the person I want to to get to eventually. There was one more thing I wanted to ask you about this. Was it about the butt shot of Alia? No. Because we can talk about that. We're going to do a separate part. About butt shots and Linus.

The ass shots and all of them, by the way. Because it's not just a lot of guys. A lot of guys. This is the ass shot show of our time. I really can't get, like, there have been some phenomenal. He loves the ass shot. He really does. I was just trying to think of like if he does this in a lot of his series, but he

loves to get people naked. You know another thing he loves. and I wanted, this is what I was going to ask you. What? 42% of this show, I did the math, takes place on tarmacs. Oh, airport shit. I've never seen a guy who loves fucking flying private

more than Taylor Sheridan. There's nothing that gets him off more than a private jet rolling up and then just being like, yeah, wheels up, let's go. I'll let you know where we're going when we get there. Not just that, but the jet rules. Yeah. Like, this is the altitude you have to fly at

to be under radar. How much fuel are you carrying? How much fuel are you carrying? Yeah. The jumping off points, like, we got to get to fucking Mexico. Because when we get to Mexico, it's fucking done. Yeah.

We can't be seen anymore. There was really funny when they were like, then they're in international airspace and, you know, they're gone. And it's like, I don't know, you guys go into like international spots all the time and assassinating. People just blow the plane out of the sky.

You went to the Ukraine. Do you think, because he shoots a lot of this stuff in Texas, like on his ranch now, do you think that, Taylor has his own airport on that ranch. And that all of that stuff is shot, like, at his spot. Oh, it could be.

Because the airport in Cuba and the airport in Baltimore and the airport in Mexico are the same airport. The same airport, yeah. I mean, it could be. I like the fact that he uses his own shit. Like, he, like... I definitely think that Ukraine is Texas, but with, like, a Ukraine filter on the camera. My question is probably all at the big rancher he has. My question is, what would be your version of this?

If there was a CR show and the show was essentially about some other shit, but really wrapped up in all of your interests? My passions? Your passions. Because his passions are guns and horses and asses and airplanes and lesbians. Those are the things that he loves. This is the reason I like the show so much is I can't think of any other passions I have. Maybe that's what we're getting to.

Is this deep psychological profile that I didn't know existed for myself? I don't know. Like, nobody wants to watch a TV show about use bookstores and being bad at golf. Yeah. You know? Pick up basketball show. Nobody wants that. Anything else before I let you go?

You got higher learning. And you're back and you jet lagged and you did the show with me. And I appreciate it. I'm fine, man. Like, I'm good. Like, I tell you, I will. I have to say this. Once again, we have to go.

Oh, you want to do a little bit of behind the scenes. So go ahead. I mean, look, we're talking about Lioness. And it seems as if Tracy Letts doesn't like that idea, man. He doesn't like the idea of us talking about. I think he's fine with us talking about. I just don't think he's interested in joining us in any kind of capacity. So you didn't feel play by what you said on the big picture?

I had reached out in Olive Branch last time, I think when I was on Midnight Boys. I think I posited an idea of like why are us three guys fighting for scraps and being third chair? Like, why don't we think about making something, owning something, being part of something together, three chairs? Right. And Tracy said that's a loser shit. And that sounds like the idea of a loser and the philosophy of a loser and that you and I, I believe you compared us to Pat Buchanan and Lyndon LaRouche to failed politicians to say nothing, to say the least.

Said that we were chopping it up. Yeah. Chopping it up by line this. I mean, cool. He's off my Christmas card list. You know what I mean? I'll be honest with you. I don't like that shit.

I'm like, I'm going to be all the way real. It was funny because like, you know, So let me keep it all the way real with the audience. Let me keep it all the way real with the audience. I realize that the big picture is like the Bushwood Country Club of the Ringg. I do. I get it. I am the Rodney Dangerfield.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They are the Bushwood Country Club of the Ringer. Lovable people that we love to talk movies with. But I know that the audience over there is not thrilled to see me on the podcast. Okay. Right? that I go in there to rabble rouse and to rough shit up and what we have in common with each other. And to say this Star Wars movie was good.

And say, guess what? The Flash fucking ripped. Did you do that? No, I did it on Midnight Boys. It was one of my great regrets. Anyway, it did not rip. But now it's caught up in a moment. They put Christopher Reeve in the movie.

Anyway, so look. So I get that. I understand that. And that's like an unspoken deal that I have with the fans of the big picture. You know, they know it is. Sure. They know what we have in common. Everybody knows what they're going for.

They know that I'm there to rough up and beat a rabble rouser about comic book movies, but we all love movies, we love Sean, we love Amanda, okay? That's the fucking deal. So when I said that I wanted to be

third chair, that was really for them. It was facetious. It was to get them going. Let's, it's holding on a little too tight. I got to be honest with you, bro. Let's just holding on a little bit too tight, bro.

Do you know what it is? I just think that's a dude, who I love. I really do love him in the short time that I've known him. And I just I just think his banter

comes from another generation. That's the thing. The thing is, you're hitting a little close to the kidneys, Tracy. That's the thing. The thing is, you know, he's doing something

you're not supposed to do. You're not supposed to fall in love with your side bitch. You're not. The big picture is Tracy lets his side check. That's a two-time Pulitzer.

You know, That's his side check. You're not supposed to fall in love with your side change. Even if she makes you feel young again. I think this just speaks to the allure of podcasting. I get it. And Sean and Amanda creating such a warm, hospitable home for so many of us. He called me Lincoln LaRouche, and I felt like Kevin Hart in the 40-year-old version, like,

I don't understand the words that's coming out of your mouth. But I'm going to take him as disrespect. You know what I'm saying? I'm going to take him as disrespect. I'm going to fuck you chopping it up. Grandpa, have you ever going to see your ass down with? Did you go Google a Lerush? I knew who that was, but I'm just saying, like,

Like, the, I like, I looked at that and I'm like, hey, man, look, now we got to do the thing where we really start to kind of get at each other a little bit. Don't, don't play with me, Tracy. Like, sitting down there talking with Sean. Look, it's all love. It is. But don't fall in love with your side chick, grandpa. Don't do that. Where would you rank the watches, your side chicks?

What you mean? Like, and you're, and you're, I think, I think you are a man who is so. ever present on so many pots. I don't really understand the romantic hierarchy of your podcast. Oh, but see, that's the thing, though. If you don't fall in love with them, you can treat them all the same. I see. You know what I'm saying? Like, for me, I'm a part,

for better or for worse, whether you like it or not, I'm a part of the Ringer podcast family, baby. There we go. So I'm going to do it again. Oh, so I'm going to be around, having fun with my brothers. Exactly like Predator. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. The same thing. Predator after they've both

had atrophy. Yeah. Like, I'm I'm having fun with my bros, man. But I don't want to be third chair. I don't want to be third chair. There is no such thing. Really, as a third chair, we're all just hanging out. Okay. Podcasting.

Don't get over your skis, though. Okay. Don't do too much. This is your Oppenheimer moment. What have I done? Because you really ramped it up when you threw your hat in the ring. Yeah, it was like, yeah, we're having fun. But like, you know, man.

What you're talking to? Oh, my God. Thank you for. overcoming him. No problem. Love it. Lioness. What are we going to

click up again to do? East of Eden. I don't know. What the fuck? I'll talk to you soon. All right. Peace.