The Watch - ‘Star Wars’ Says That TV Was the Plan All Along, Plus the ‘Atlanta’ Season 3 Finale

Episode Date: May 20, 2022

Chris and Andy talk about the 'Vanity Fair' piece on Lucasfilm’s efforts to create a fleet of ‘Star Wars’ TV shows, and how there are seemingly no new movies on the horizon (1:00). Then, they talk about ‘She-Hulk’ and Marvel's own respective plans for more TV shows (31:16), before recapping the Season 3 finale of ‘Atlanta’ and reflecting on the season as a whole (41:49). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys, Rachel Lindsay here, and I am teaming up with your favorite Ringer podcasters to deliver the Bravo drama and news that you've been craving on morally corrupt. It's the show about all things Bravo. From the Housewise to Summer House and everything in between, we'll be mentioning it all every week. Check it out on Spotify and the ringer.com. Did you know about one in three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis? which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you?

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Stand up and walk now. Now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me on the other line, all inquiries can be directed to his lawyer, She-Hulk, it's Andy Greenwald! Would you retain the services of Jennifer Walters? I currently don't have legal representation. Do you think that's an issue? Yeah. You have a lawyer.

I do. Yeah, that's pretty cool. It's really cool. It's very fun. She's great and really, really wants to go on the rewatchables, as I believe I've mentioned to you. And I'm trying to figure out a way to leverage this so Tara can, you know, quid pro quo, which I believe is a legal term.

So if you get her on the rewatchables, you get what, like 60 free hours? Wow. I feel like that's a lot, right? That's a lot of money. Yeah. She's a good lawyer, so that's expensive. Chris, I listen to other Ringer podcasts, and I believe you retaining the services of Clutch to negotiate your next deal is a running bit.

So I feel like maybe you need to up the ante and retain the services of Jennifer Walters, aka Shee Hulk. Yeah, I don't know if Bill doesn't know enough about MCU mythology to really like, that wouldn't push it either way. I just respect strong athletic women. That's true. That he sure does. My biggest fear and Andy, we're going to talk about a couple of things today, including Star Wars. There was a huge article in Vanity Fair about the state of the Star Wars franchise and its moves between television movies.

We're definitely going to hit that. We're going to talk a little bit about She Hulk. The trailer dropped and Marvel stuff. And then we're going to talk about Atlanta. So on any other month in the last six years, if you were like, today we're talking about Star Wars Marvel in Atlanta, we would be all smiles.

But I feel like, you know, we're kind of like, we have some stuff to say about all three. My problem with the lawyer thing before we move on from this topic, because I know that this is- I don't see any reason to move on. It's Free Fire Thursday where we don't have to like immediately start recapping a show is I would,

I'm really putting all my eggs in the basket of getting a scrappy public defender who would take on my case probing. bono, you know, because I don't have a lawyer. Right. And so, like, I'm really, really counting on Kim Wexler answering that call. Yes, you need her to stay on the board and better call Saul, if only so that she can represent you. Wait, I mean, you do know a defense attorney doing pro bono work is probably not the best choice for a contract renegoti. Yeah, I got that part.

Yes. Okay. Okay. I was going to say, this is a good day for this conversation because it appears that there will now be dueling legal dramas at on the Disney Blues because Charlie Cox is suiting back up again I don't know if you saw that

Oh I didn't I didn't Daredevil back baby Devil coming back? Yeah so that's another attorney Is it going to be a kinder gentle or daredevil? I mean like more Disney Well less Netflix Beating the shit out of dudes in a hallway yeah

I kind of hope not because that scene is literally the only thing Either of us remember about the 20 filmed hours of the Daredevil television program So I want to ask you a little bit about Netflix a little bit later too, just as far as teasing stuff goes. Now, we're putting this episode up on Thursday night after the season finale of Atlanta, but we're going to talk about a couple of other things before we get to Atlanta. First of all, I wanted to ask you about this Star Wars article.

So every once in a while, you get a nice, juicy, inside baseball, glossy magazine feature on one of these impenetrable-seeming fortresses of content like Disney. It's interesting to me. It's interesting to me, Chris, that you said inside baseball, because I thought I saw the outlines like Neo Seas the Matrix that you were going to go build like strong athletic women, strong athletic women play softball. Speaking of softball, here was the Vanity Fair story about the state of art, the state of television at Lucasfilm. That's one way of looking at this article. So I did think it was very interesting, the things that weren't said in this piece. But for the most part, this piece was largely about Star Wars and its pivot to television. So there's,

the article by Anthony Bresdenkin was called, The Rebellion will be televised. I recommend people check it out because there's lots of, I think, philosophical ideas about where the industry is going in general that are outlined throughout this piece. There's also lots of things that have happened over the last five, six, seven years in Star Wars

that aren't really delved into too deeply. I would say, if you control F. Benny Off and Weiss, no results. Control F. Lorde Miller, no results? Like, Control F. Trevor O. nothing doing? Yeah, was the Josh Trank paragraph cut for time and space?

Probably. I was going to say it's on the online edition, but this is the online edition. But for the most part, a very interesting look inside what is going on at Lucasfilm right now. And, you know, the lessons learned coming out of the sequel movies

and the two spinoff movies, Rogue One and Solo. And this run of very successful television series that they've been kind of drumming up from Mandalorian to Boba Fett, and I say successful either critically, critically and commercially, or maybe none of the above. I don't know. It's hard to discern what the ratings are, but I'll just go through some of the sort of major tenets that we need to know about. So most of the piece tracks the development of two upcoming shows. And that's Obi-One, which is coming next week,

Oberon Canobi, and Tony Gilroy's Rogue One prequel, which is called Andor, which is probably the one that you and I are most looking forward to out of all of the perspective like Star Wars stuff that's coming up. And that is obviously about Cassie Nandor from Rogue One played by Diego Luna. That comes later this summer. There's a third season of the Mandalorian on the way

which is slated for late 22, early 23. And then next year we get Ashoka and down the line the accolite Leslie Headlands show and an unnamed project from John Watts generally. That sounds more like, a coming-of-age amblin-style show, like about young kids in the Star Wars galaxy.

And that was the only real news news-broken, I think. Yeah, yeah. Currently, there are no movies on this schedule. And I do want to talk about that, so please put a giant pin that's more like a lightsaber in that one and leave it dangling over the fire like an aged piece of meat so I can come back and feast on it in like 10 minutes. Okay. Currently, there are no movies on the schedule, although Tycho Waititi's feature is due first.

there's just no slate they're not slated uh rogue squadron which was the uh movie that was supposed to be directed by patty jenkins is described as quote further off uh kevin figy's rumored movie is still a rumor and according to kathleen kennedy ryan johnson has been making knives out movies so he hasn't been working on his plan trilogy and like i mentioned nothing about the failed or announced but never realized benny off and weiss movies or anything else so i think you could call this peace, Kathy Ganda. You know,

it's largely about the successes of Star Wars, which isn't to say it's not been successful. Mandalorians, obviously, a massive hit, and Grogu has become,

like, you know, one of the iconic pop culture characters of the last five to ten years. But for the most part, it sort of shapes this idea that Star Wars has,

one of the definitive blockbuster franchises in movie history, has left the big screen for the small screen, and that this is actually the way, this is the way to borrow a Star Warsism, that George Lucas's original style of storytelling

was always episodic, that they had been thinking of making Star Wars TV shows as far back as when Lucas was preparing Star Wars Underworld. You've obviously got the animated series, which were long-running Dave Faloni projects, and that this is the sort of more preferable bucket to put Star Wars stuff in, even though these movies are the sort of,

of definitive film-going experiences of the last 45 years. Yeah, this was the most remarkable real-world instance of these aren't the droids you're looking for that I can remember in quite some time. Yeah. Because, to your point, the Lucasfilm TV strategy, Lucasfilm Disney Blues TV strategy, has been very successful. And I am in no way hating or casting shade on the glorious cover that features three, I mean,

three of my favorite actors full stop. The Vanity Fair cover, yeah. And Rosario also one of my favorite people, full stop, and I'm so happy for her and can confirm that she is terrible keeping secrets, particularly about her playing this character, and I'll say no more. But Ewan McGregor, we love in anything.

Diego Luna, I love in anything. This is fantastic. But the suggestion that this was always, shout out to Pedro Pascal, the way is ludicrous. Star Wars is movies. Yeah. Star Wars is event cinema.

And just because George slapped episode whatever on the three movies that were Star Wars doesn't mean he invented TV. You know what I mean? And just because they haven't had a movie in a few years doesn't mean that Kathy and the gang were like, what a luxury it is to remove ourselves from the modern capitalist system for a few years,

and really think about what we want to do. Now, have they used this time well to consider what it might mean to make a Star Wars movie now? I hope so. I hope so. I mean, I don't think it's a secret. I've said this in various ways in the podcast before. Like, I've spoken to people in Lucasfilm off the record,

and I think that they are very smart people who are taking all of this into account and taking it seriously and understand the stakes and the marketplace and what the various factions want out of all this. 100 million percent. But it was super weird to really, read one of these, and by the way, Vanity Fair has been doing Lucasfilm Puff pieces since

1999 when Annie Leibowitz went to Tunisia. I would love to have seen that expense bill, by the way, to shoot Jake Lloyd and Ewan McGregor and Ray Park and the whole gang. And that was like, because we weren't really super internety then, that was how we saw and learned the names of a lot of these new characters. So there's a history here. Sure. But for this article to come out and not mention all of the turmoil that led to this place cinematically, that led to the TV cart leading the horse, banta?

I don't know how to do that metaphor. Yeah, right. Is unfortunate, because I do find that interesting. Look at you defending cinema again. Well, you know, I love to zag. This is a podcast. I think the other feeling that it gave me, and then I think we should get into some of the specifics,

was just, I did remember, and look, it was 20 years ago. It's shocking to all of us that this was 20 years ago, but 23 years ago. So we should allow me this, but I understand that it's ludicrous. Again, to say how special that felt, even though those movies ended up being horrific. Yeah, right. Yes. They were special and rare.

And it's going to be very hard for these companies, most of which companies, brands, most of which are owned by Disney, to continue to meet the demands of. of the marketplace and the shareholders while retaining anything even remotely magic about this. So that makes sense, because we know we're going to keep seeing these characters forever. Right. Well, I mean, in a way, right?

So there's some stuff in the piece where Kathleen Kennedy talks about specifically solo and the relationship that people had to that character and to the degree to which it was tied up in Harrison Ford and how, you know, she doesn't specifically say this, but that obviously didn't serve all. and Aaron Wright well when playing that character, even though I think we all had a lot of fun

sort of Monday morning quarterbacking, who should play Han Solo up to through and after Solo came out. And she was just like lesson learned. It just seems like it's wrong to toy with people's, you know, kind of relationship to those characters in, not in a flippant way, but just kind of like that was not an execution that worked and we learned our lesson from that.

Now, this is interesting because this whole piece is pegged to Obi-Wan coming in a week. And the whole thing with Ewan McGregor playing Obi-Wan Kenobi is that he is taking the role from one of the iconic British actors of all time, Alec Guinness. Now, obviously, people probably have like a little bit of a different relationship to Obi-Wan. Like, when you see an old man, you're like, what was he like when he was young? And they've showed us. And I think Ewan McGregor now at this point for a lot of people probably, like, kind of is O'Bee-Wan. Obi-Wan? People have the same feeling when they see YouTube clips of us.

Yeah. They're like, what were the young versions of them? Yes, and it also is a nature of time, right? Like, Hayden Christensen has been completely rehabbed, and people are excited for him to play this role again. He seems excited to play this role again. And it is impossible to overstate how loathed the part, the performance, and unfairly the actor were.

when those movies were actually being released. But Time has a weird habit of cleansing old wounds, and also nostalgia is a crazy thing. They are aiming this at the heart of the people for whom the first Star Wars experience was the prequel, who are now certainly more than old enough to pay for their Disney Plus streaming services subscription. I wanted to ask you about that feeling, though,

that you're describing, you know, and the feeling and the fervor around the prequels when they came out, to some extent, I think that that was recreated to, you know, a bit with Force Awakens very knowingly because Force Awakens so sort of lovingly and perhaps to its detriment, like, serviced people's relationships with the original movies, with the original trilogy, by bringing back so many characters. But, you know, they've done a good job, I think, over the last couple of years, trying to slowly walk away from the Skywalker saga, even though Skywalker obviously makes an appearance in

Mandalorian and like there's they haven't done a successful job walking away from it it's just like it's like my relationship to a bag of potato chips like I can leave it in the kitchen but you know it's there but but that well and the contents are somehow going down yeah right minute by minute right I guess it's kind of the same thing with where I'm at with Marvel right now where this conversation has been happening across the ringer podcast network on a variety of shows on ring or verse on big picture but it's like are you guys going to do end game again or what? Like, when's the big bad going to get presented? When are we going to understand what's at stake with all these movies? What's the story it's telling? When will we shift into the sort of unified kind of narrative that brings all this stuff together instead of just

like, it's a multiverse, but there's also this, but there's the multiverse. But remember, we can go back to the blip or we can go back even further. All this stuff where it's like, well, I think for a lot of people, like, their experience of those movies were the idea of building towards something. And I think for a lot of people, their experience of Star Wars is still very tied up in that saga and tied up in that this boy who's found, who does something extraordinary to save the galaxy is still Star Wars to them. Now, there's a lot of people who are like, no, my, my Star Wars experiences is Thrawn. I want to see that come to life. Or I want to see these various things that are part of the canon come to life. But I wonder whether TV necessarily like kind of dilutes that feeling

or dilutes that massive urge towards collective experience in a weird way? It didn't used to, but yeah, I think that's part of it. I mean, the question is, what are you chasing when you engage with these movies? What is it that, these stories, I'll say? What is it that you like? What appeals to you? Is it the characters? Okay.

Is it the propulsive thrust towards a larger goal possible? Is it the world, which can mean a lot of different things? or is it the kind of electric crackle of the event? It's been X number of years. I'm excited to have that experience again. And that can happen on TV too, you know, when something big happens or a show returns or it's been building up to something for four seasons. It's not unique to that.

I don't know if there is any longer one answer to that or if all of those questions are still relevant when the corporate approach to this material is akin to the giant people in floating chairs in the Pixar film Wally, where it's just being pumped into their bodies all the time. Now, your mileage may vary on which ones of these that you love or you don't love, but so far none of them feel particularly special anymore. And that's a bummer. That also might not translate into subscriber law, so maybe it's irrelevant. In terms of these stories, you know,

I think it's that we're going to be seeing. I think it is really still notable that they don't have. The unsaid pieces of the Vanity Fair piece are almost entirely about what's next and what's new. The Acolyte is included, but there's a version of Lucasfilm's TV strategy where the Acolyte is the strategy, where an Obi-Wan project that got Ewan McGregor involved when it was going to be a movie and then did some permutations and is ending up as an event series. that's not what you bank your future on. Tony Gilroy wrapping up loose ends

of the character he liked in Rogue One, we're thrilled about. My guy Tony, his sort of solid paragraph of Tony Gilroy talking where he's just like, well, in season one, the base of our show is, I'm like, dog.

Is Dickensian. Yeah, right, it's Dickensian. And he really has, like, the roadmap is quite vivid there. Yeah, that's the show, obviously, that we're excited about. and kudos to them for selfishly for having a show for us and other shows for other people.

Yeah, for real. So, I mean, I don't mean to make it seem like I'm negative on all this stuff. That seems awesome. I'm going to see and support anything Rosario does. The last Obi-1 trailer looked pretty good, you know, for what it was. The acolyte thing, though, that's their first, okay, we're going to try it. And we've said this, you know, we've had the opportunity to say this dozens of times because it's been announced and been in development for so long,

and I still think we're at least a year away, if not longer. But we, in this house, we support Leslie Headland as a writer and a director and a person. I'm thrilled she's the one doing it. And I think from every little bit of the tea leaves that have been sprinkled, it's pretty radically different. It's set in an era we've never seen. It stars the types of people that haven't started in these pictures. I don't know why I'm suddenly one of the original Warner Brothers.

But that's different, but that's also way in front of us. Similarly, a lot of talk about how the movement. Movies are going to figure it out, but we don't know what those look like yet. So they're spinning this as their great pivot forward, but we're still, this is the fruits of the last five or six years. Right. You know, and are based on things that they kind of had in the pipeline or had just lower hanging fruit.

So I'm kind of curious about what all this means. The thing that I do want to rip on, perhaps illegitimately, is the John Watt series. And more specifically, which I think is like code named grammar, or something, at least in the piece, but obviously that's not what it's going to be called. I want to be very clear. I have known nothing about the series. I think John Watts has done amazing work. I like Copcar, and I love the Spider-Man movies.

This is no way anything directed at him about a series that I don't understand. But I will just speak for a 40-plus-year-old white man. Plus. Take the car keys away from us. fucking drunk on the 80s. When this show is described as stranger things, basically, in the Star Wars universe, my blood boiled. Like, we need to have the keys taken from us now.

Because this obsession that literally us, our generation has with the summer of 1984 when Ghostbusters came out and we felt something, it needs to be put away. Like, it's just, it's enough now. this nostalgia for feeling nostalgic that gave us such masterpieces of navel gazing like Super 8 like the last Ghostbusters film which was basically

want to have a catch dad for two and a half hours like what are we doing? This material is has been serviced. You and I have been serviced. You and I have definitely gotten everything we hoped for

and they keep giving it to us they're putting Harrison Ford and Helen Mirren in a Taylor Sheridan show. We're going to come to that. But I just mean like we're, We're done. And I know it's rich me saying this at the top of a podcast that will end with us talking about Atlanta being like, what was that?

But if that's what it takes, if we are now off of the cultural bullseye, which fairly we probably have been for a while, and I have to choose between the thin gruel of everything that's come before and a TV show that I love being like, here's something. And me saying, no, thank you. I choose the latter. Right. I think you maybe are like having an allergic reaction to the Amblin keyword. being thrown into that paragraph? I am. Would you have had the same reaction

if I had told you that the kid with the broom at the end of the Ryan Johnson movie is the star of his trilogy and it's about like Professor X's gifted Jedi's rolling through 1984 Star Wars Space? Like is there just something about like time has worn you down and ground your bones into dust? Yeah, I just, I just, there's this weird arresting

nature to the artistic imagination and curiosity of a very specific person who looks and sounds exactly like us. Right. And you see it in, you know, I mean, it's just all over, it's all over pop culture. And it's, it's this idea that, you know, like, you get these movies or even like the Jurassic Park sequels that really like aren't about, and to be fair, I don't know what there's to say about there's dinosaurs running around. seems like a pretty, like, easy punching bag.

But these gestures are just formless gestures towards the idea of remembering something. And Force Awakens was that entirely. Yeah. You know, they aren't even the thing itself anymore. And we're so far removed from the thing itself that we're having properties come out and people are like, well, that's ripping off Stranger Things.

And Stranger Things starts to feel like some, brilliant, you know, post-1979 art pastiche of, like, ideas remembered and forgotten. And I'm like, those dudes just like 1984, too. you know what I mean? I just feel like there must be another way to have a story about young people doing anything. The only pushback I would make is that

like, aren't we also just so susceptible? It doesn't it just change? Like if you and I are like, okay, like, let's put a caper on 1984, but I'm like, but 1976 conspiracy thrillers, like, you know what I mean? Injected into my veins. Exactly, right? Like, it's just like, you know, Berlin, 1942 spy drama. Like, for sure.

But I also think that the sheer amount of content we have, and we're getting a little far from the Vanity Fair article, but the sheer amount of content we have has lowered the bar so that there is more fine and good and not a ton of great. And I was having a conversation with a bunch of people about the J.C. Chandor film A Most Violent Year. Okay. That was the Oscar Isaac, Jessica Chastain. Can you just give me a little bit of context for this? conversation. Alessandro Navola. Well, we are talking about, and it's relevant in the sense that J.C. Chandor's new film,

next film that he's currently filming, is Craven the Hunter. Uh-huh. You know, based on the iconic and somewhat known Spider-Man villain, and this film will, of course, be from Sony and not feature Spider-Man. But talking about him just as a filmmaker and his, like, his filmography. Yeah. And I was remembering how much I really liked and admired that movie. But I was wondering, like, did I like that?

that movie because it was a beautiful simulacrum of other movies I liked, or because it was itself a good movie. And that might be an unknowable question, but what I mean is like that that's the, not everything can be an A plus or be transcendent, nor do I expect it to. Yeah. But the ability we have to be like, here are my influences, and I'm just going to recreate them versus here are my influences and I'm going to explode them. But the question you have to ask yourself, Andy, and this is maybe a niche comparison, but like, would you rather listen to Griselda or like cutting edge new rap that sounds like it's like very much ripped from like today? And I don't even know. I mean, honestly, I don't even know what that would be, but would you rather listen to something that makes you feel good

because that's what in your mind is when rap sounded great was in the late 90s and early 2000s. And so let's just like go in on Pusha over and over and over again. Yes. Look, You've got me. Because I, in the last week, when it was possible to choose, I've spent more time listening to Cool G-Rapid 38 Spech's collaborative album than I have Kendrick Lamar. Right. I am not arguing that's better than Kendrick Lamar or more quote-unquote important or artistic or forward-looking. It's more like, this is just what I enjoy right now. And that's a great point.

There's certain things where it's like the genre doesn't, the genre is like obviously important. and there's like, I think anybody is probably going to give a little bit more time or attention to something that is like something they already like. I think we own this city is a perfect example of this. I am obviously going to be a sucker for a Baltimore set crime show from the makers of the wire. There are obvious connections to the wire in this show, both in terms of the actors being used, but also in terms of some of the ideas being played around with.

It could not be less like the wire in the telling. And that's what I'm always going to respond to. If you say we're making a show that has, or a movie that has like some of the spirit of 1984 Amblin vibes, I'll still, I'm still interested. It's really about like, what are you doing with it? Yeah. Well, are you trying to harness those vibes to tell a story? Are you trying to recreate the feeling of receiving those vibes? It's like how many steps removed are you from the main source or from the original article?

And I guess just a way to bring a full circle before we move on is that is the challenge, a challenge that I think you and I are both very sympathetic to, not just professionally invested in, the challenge that Lucasfilm faces. You know, every year that passes, they are further and further away from George scribbling Luke Star Killer on a composition book and, you know, earning himself like $5 billion in the process. Speaking of Griselda, one of my favorite Griselda emcees is Luke Star Killer. Luke Star Killer. I think his, he goes, hey, yo.

his EP with Stoke God Cooks is underrated but you know what I mean it's so like what is you become it's like it's like people are like yes my sourdough starter or my kombucha mother is 15 years old and it's like first of all a little bit gross second of all how much of the original thing are you ingesting and working with

and how much of it is just and that's where kind of where they are FYI you have monkey pox now if that's the case but it was worth it what is Star Wars anymore because also we, as I keep saying, should be pushed off of the front page here. And even the people who work there, I imagine, some of them first learned about Star Wars through the prequels. And so I guess the hope and the optimism in this is that they will also begin to push away, not just the creators or the expected audience, but some of the old stories and characters and slowly transition to something new. I think that's the best case scenario where one of these very backward-looking series spawns something interesting that sparks something completely new. Yeah.

And like our collective kombucha mother, Princess Leia, I think is culturally what her name is. It will birth something else. Can I ask you, this is like, I know that this conversation topic is over, but I want to ask you, I think, a really good... That's never stopped us before. Do you... Did you actually like... What was your favorite part of the Mandalorian? The week-to-week samurai westernness of it?

Or when Luke Skywalker came through and just crushed the buildings? You know. Everyone who listened to this podcast knows. That was when I stopped liking it. It was when Luke showed up. Okay. So you're a man of your word. That's all I wanted to know.

Yeah. We have the podcast proof of it. I liked it when they went to the squid planet and ate bisque. That's what I wanted. By the way, speaking of the squid planet, the last thing I'll say, the thing that I appreciated about the article was the amount of time it spent talking about the giant LED screen wall

that allows them to make the show, the volume it's called. We talk about it, like you and I know stuff about it, like, oh, this is revolutionary or whatever. But I think that the way the Vanity Fair article described it and put it in the context of that show was helpful because none of this happens without it,

and they couldn't have made this show without having invented that. And it's changed everything, both for the potential for big screen storytelling on TV, but also for what people expect to see week to week on the TV. And it's really interesting to think about Lucasfilm just cranking out material on multiple shows with stars who don't even know what shows they're in just from an anonymous warehouse in Manhattan Beach, while other studios are playing catch-up and, like, chasing tax breaks for VFX heavy programming from like New Zealand to Prague and Budapest and back again. They are so far ahead of their competitors in this. Not that there aren't other vendors for this wall, this volume, but that's very, very different and notable in things like the apparent VFX work in Sheihulk. So, yeah, as you mentioned, Sheehulk's trailer dropped this week,

and I think everybody who cared was charmed by some of the performances held within and noted with, you know, vociferously, that it seemed unfinished. I'll put it that way. And, you know, there was some pushback where it's like, well, maybe like the VFX aren't done yet. You know, it's a thing where like, I mean, I have, there are screeners that I have that like, you know,

are close to airing and there's still like, at least the screener that I have is like the VFX are still being finished. ADR is still being finished. There are still like text messages being added. Totally. When Briar Patch was in post and we had to make a trailer, we had to rush VFX for the shots that had been selected for the trailer locking us into those shots in the trailer because they weren't done right at all right the show

is airing and vfx shots weren't done in upcoming episodes so long this stuff is she whole coming at august they could very well like uh you know fix the contrast on the green skin i guess or whatever um i actually had like a different question about this because obviously one of the reasons why and i keep returning both to star wars into marvel besides the fact that like we're interested in it and like literally interested in just like the stories that are being told is as they have become the dominant sort of two poles of popular culture storytelling in a lot of ways. I find like the Trojan horse conversation around these shows and movies to be really fascinating. Like what are they sneaking into these things? How are they reviving maybe less fashionable genres and basically putting a superhero

skin on top of them to do this? And you know, you can go back through a couple of the Marvel things. I mean, even recently, you know, it was like, Hawkeye is like an action buddy comedy from the 80s or, you know, Wanda Vision was supposed to be a trip through sitcoms past, but the other way that they can Trojan horse thing in is to take

ideas or things from the emotional spectrum that maybe you wouldn't necessarily think you would find in the superhero story. Like, you know, the sort of vagaries and details of like female trauma, which would go into Wanda Vision or race and

patriotism, which go into Falcon and Winter Soldier. And as long as you have like a six-minute chase sequence at the end of the episode or something or, you know, possibly Emily Vanderkamp being in Bousan or something like that, like it kind of like pays for itself. And I was watching the She-Haw trailer and I was just like, cool, Alie McHulk, right? Exactly. Like a kind of comic take on a woman who's a professional woman who's sort of trying to figure out our life. And yet, like, you know, obviously the Hulk part of it is going to be 75% of that.

So I was curious where you were at with the idea of relying on these franchise shows to Trojan horse in the genres that we also like, like spy shows or heist movies or legal thrillers or legal comedies or whatever. And whether or not you think that that's like actually like can hold up that water. It's a great question. I want to start by saying, I am not. anti this show. Yeah. It's getting dragged. I'm not ready to join in.

On a story level, I love the character of She-Hulk. I love the comics that have emphasized the legal aspect of it, the lighter comedy of it, the feminism of it, even dating back to, and I'm not sure about the feminism part in these comics, but John Byrne, the comic writer and illustrator in the 80s, late 80s had a She-Hulk solo series, since you joined the Fantastic Four and stuff. Great character, a lot of fun baked in.

Also, love Tatiana Maslani, Ginger Gonzaga's in it. They're smart people involved in this that make me hopeful. Also, shout out to Ruffalo for having a character that allows him to clearly have the Pedro Pascal deal, because I think he had to roll out of bed and go to an ADR booth somewhere near his home in New York City just to be a part of this show. By the way, I'm old enough to remember when in Marvel movies, characters like Iron, Iron Man and Captain America constantly took off their masks and helmets because that's where the money went was to hiring the stars. The patron Pascal of the part of the Vanity Fair article where he's just like, it's a pretty cool job because sometimes it's just voice acting.

I'm like sometimes it is. It's been twice that it wasn't and he could fully star in a different HBO show. I'm glad they confirmed it. But you know what I mean? Like how far we've come in just 10 years where like Chadwick Bozeman barely put on his mask in that movie. and now, I mean, I'm sure someone in Kevin Feige's office, if not Kevin Feige himself, knew this at the time, that like, oh, this is actually going to be our, this is actually going to be brilliant for us. Because at a certain point, when the actors stop wanting to show up or we want to change the actors, we just have the suits. Right.

And it'll turn into this. Anyway, the thing about the She-Hulk question that I really appreciate is, you know, writers of any stripe need to feel passionate about what they're working on to make it anything. And no one sets out to make anything bad. Of course, you have to find your own way to enthusiasm or to passion. And one of the ways, especially in today's fractured, IP-driven times, is this is the great Trojan horse opportunity to do the show I've always wanted to do. And, you know, that isn't limited to comic book and superhero shows. There's a show about the mob that David Chase made. And then there's the show about, like, fucked up psychology and family dynamics that he really, really wanted to make.

And he married them brilliantly. Like this is not a new idea. The thing that, and I don't think this is even a concern troll, I feel like this is a concern, is that because Disney has swallowed the industry so thoroughly, we're not actually making the show that's just about a bunch of Trojan soldiers anymore, not inside of a horse.

We're not making the reference points anymore. We're not making light legal comedies or compelling caper spy dramas or shows that ask tough questions about feminism and marrying a robot. Oh, no, we are actually. It's called Made for Love. So that does exist.

But you get what I'm saying. And that starts to worry me. I mean, I'm not worried when many, many writers are employed in cashing checks with Michael Mouse on the corner of them. Like, that's great. But I kind of wish they could also write their passion project. Mm-hmm. I don't know.

I mean, like, it's like, it doesn't, I wonder whether or not there's a little bit of, like those shows do exist, but like maybe we're just not watching them. You know, I mean, it's not like there aren't any... Yeah, there are a lot of shows. Yeah, it's not like there aren't any legal thrillers or legal comedies. I mean, maybe there aren't, but it seems like... Nightcourt reboot coming later this summer. Yeah, I just feel like...

The thing that struck me about this is partially the talent involved, you know, both in front of them behind the camera. And this just sort of being what the game is now. You got to... You can do this kind of show, but they're all... also needs to be Tim Roth reviving his abomination character. Is that what happening there? Yeah.

Great. I'm happy for Tim Roth. And Tim Roth is a really good example of somebody who will do this every couple of years or do something like this every few years. And then also go make like three weird art movies, all of which seem to be set on an island where a marriage is falling apart. So shout to him. So you'll be first one on Fandango.

Yeah, right. But yeah, I don't really have like any, like, we don't really know what this show is about or anything like that. I just thought it was an interesting way of thinking about, thinking about like what they try to do over there at MCU headquarters. What about what they try to do over at Incepting CR headquarters where Taylor Sheridan just, just steals two of the most prominent and important film stars of the last 50 years for his sequel series to 1880, what was it too? It's a, it's part of the Yellowstone sort of Dutton family saga.

And obviously 1883 was a one-off series with Faith Hill and Tim McGraw, where it's the Dutton family as they go west. To be clear, Faith Hill and Tim McGraw, have they been told yet? Because last I saw, they were out giving interviews about season two. I think that it came as a little, like we talked about this, but it came as a little bit of a surprise that. But I would also say that the ending of season one was rather definitive. For some, yes. And then it was, he was like, I'm going to jump around. through time and kind of make different shows about this family over the course of

the last 150 years leading up to Yellowstone. So the next one's 1932. And that's starring Harrison Ford and Helen Mirren. I'm really like at a like we need to find out what HGH Taylor Sharon is on because he's doing this. He's also got Yellowstone back in production and it will be airing alongside Tulsa King, which is the Sylvester Stallone show. Which is apparently already shot and ready to go. But that will be getting the mayor of Kingston treatment where it's like the first couple of weeks. I think it'll be on Paramount Network after Yellowstone

and then we'll go to Paramount Plus. Yep. So that's two shows coming in the fall. A Helen Mirren Harrison Ford show, which you would imagine he would be giving his attention to. There's still the Zoe Saldonish spy show, Lioness, Landman, the Billy Bob Thornton Oil show, Bass Reeves with David O'Yellow.

and I'm forgetting one. Oh, and I think Kingston has got a second season. Unbelievable. Chris, I'm just trying to think, like, respect to the Dutton family for being interesting enough to contain both Tim McGraw and Harrison Ford. Yeah. I was trying to imagine what...

A lot of cool patriarchs in that family. For sure. Like, if there was the Greenwald family saga being done in this style, I'm imagining it would be like seasons one through 16, Stettel. Season 17, Boat. Season 18 through 24 department stores probably unclear. And then all the later seasons are just people thinking too much in rooms.

Yeah. And frankly, it's an American story. But Andy, here's the thing. It's just not nearly as interesting. What if they were all Hulk's? Dude, see, this is actually the story that needs holes. How come no one's thought of this yet? The Golem?

I feel like Michael Chabon's already sold this. So, come on. Don't make us do all your work for you, Hollywood. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant.

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Wishing you could be there live for the big game, soaking up the atmosphere in the crowd. But too often, life gets busy. Or the price hold you back. Priceline is here to help you make it happen. With millions of deals on flights, hotels, and rental cars, you can go see the game live. Don't just dream about the trip.

Book it with Priceline. Download the Priceline app or visit Priceline.com. Actual prices may vary, limited time offer. Do you want to talk about the season finale of Atlanta? Yeah. Okay. So we had a conversation about this a couple of weeks ago and sort of tried to articulate where we were at with this season. And I sort of said I'd like to see the whole thing in totality.

Part of it was, I'm not sure if this is supposed to be earns dreams as he's jet lagged in Amsterdam. Is this supposed to be like, what are we doing here? Like what's the actual narrative connection to the Atlanta that we watch for two seasons, in the Atlanta that we have this season. And so I really wanted to see the complete statement. We had another sort of standalone episode, the black and white episode from two weeks ago. And then tonight was the finale,

which was largely about Van, which was really refreshing because Van had not really been very present in this season. She was in a couple of episodes briefly. She seemed to be at sea, but for unnamed reasons. And we get a kind of like, Amelie Hitchcock thriller for 28 minutes in this episode, this finale. And then the single most human moving moment of the entire season to kind of, I think, cap it.

And then a stinger after the beginning of the credits that kind of connects some of the mythology or some of the stories that had been told throughout these anthology episodes or these sort of standalone episodes. kind of back to earn, although I can't definitively say how. So I just wanted to say that, like, it's pretty rare that a show, I find a show this confounding in a good way. You know, like, it's not often that I see shows where I'm just like, I really, really, really have to think hard about what I thought of it. And now you could say, like, television's supposed to be this mass popular medium, and it should be pretty immediately understandable, like what you think of a show.

or how you feel about a show. And I guess if you put it in a vacuum and you were like, just watch this season of television and tell me what you think if it hadn't been attached to the first two seasons of Atlanta, I think there are parts about this show that I would have liked more. And there are parts about this show that I would have hit a JECT way earlier on, you know? How are you feeling about it after this finale? I appreciate it the way you described it.

I think for me it was sometimes more like naked gun movie as directed by Wes Anderson. Mm-hmm. That may be a good thing. I'm not sure entirely. I have a couple thoughts coming into it. One is I've been starting all my conversations about Atlanta, online and offline about this, which is that I'm grateful for it and that it exists

and that we're able to have conversations like this about it, about something challenging. I also have up on your recommendation, and I hope our listeners have as well been listening to Charles and Van on the prestige TV pod feed. And I think they've just been phenomenal about the show. and really, really illuminating. In addition to just being good podcast,

like I think they've given me a perspective on the episodes that I didn't have. And speaking of that, not having it, you know, people have said this to us in various forms. I think it's been part of the conversation that maybe it's been a difficult watch because it's not for me.

That's what you wanted, 1984, boy. That's what I'm saying. Great. Good. When I say that, I'm not saying, I'm not throwing a tantrum about it, but if I say it, I have to be like, but part of it not being for me is feeling confounded or disappointed at times. I think the other thing about it, look, I mean, it goes without saying this is one of the

baldiest and boldest turns by an established TV show maybe in history. Probably the, I mean, it's hard to think of a comparison to a show that it's not that it went off the rails. It stopped believing in trains. You know, it's just nobody. it. We're not doing it anymore. Anything that you think this is going to provide for you. We're not going to do it. And, you know, I think some people have commented on the fact that the episode descriptors, you know, or they're written kind of like slangily and like directly. And, you know, there's a

tradition of this. Like Matthew Weiner and Mad Men would be like, you know, Don enters a room. Peggy exists. And then it'd be like middle fingers up, watch the episode. These have been like, why is the show hate black women? Come on. Or like, stop trying to be smart. Like, These have been the descriptions of the episodes. Yeah, like better call solace. Howard continues to investigate. Again, more accurate. Yeah.

So they are playing with expectations and they are playing with the audience. From my, the most open-minded and open-hearted place of my truest heart, I have to say that I kind of hated most of this last episode. That's okay, too. you don't go to a museum be like that painting's pretty and that one isn't so I only like the pretty one. You also don't go to museums of beat a guy to death with a stale baguette.

Use eye statements. You don't. It's in my bag. It's literally my repertoire. There is a feeling that is hard to articulate and again everyone's mileage may vary with this feeling or with the pieces of art in question. But when there is

challenging, naughty, unconventional filmed entertainment on television, whether it's the Underground Railroad by Barry Jenkins or David Lynch's Twin Peaks to Return. There is an ineffable feeling present in those works for me that operate like a kind of guardrail for my, not comfort, but my investment. I may not understand what's going on.

I may be challenged by it or decentered by it or put off by it. but there is a sense of artistry or intent that I am picking up telepathically from the bus driver that allows me to stay on the journey and be rewarded or confounded or furious or whatever. But the way art will mess with you, right? And too many times this season, I have had the sensation that no one is driving this bus. Not that these things weren't done by choice. I mean, sometimes in this episode, the choice seems to be Scars Gardens down to play. Let's have some laughs with them.

and let's let the camera linger because it's funny that he's doing these things. Those are choices. I couldn't make heads or tails of why at times. You know, because, and this maybe just goes back to me being super basic, which I will cop to, especially in regards to just recurring characters that I love on TV, the existential plight of van, a character who has been marginalized on this show in a lot of ways and other people who are much smarter than me have talked about that, reaching a point where the father of her daughter

is suddenly successful touring Europe with an incredibly suddenly rich and successful rapper and she's just still living the same life with their daughter being expected to be taking care of the daughter having some kind of break and going to Europe because she wants a fun life too. That's so rich. Yeah.

It's so rich and it's powerful and it's not a story we see on TV. And you have to see Beats who I love and will watch do anything, including beat a man nearly to death in a French art gallery. I mean, I'm not, thank, I'm grateful. I'm grateful for the gifts we have received. But I want that story without Alexander Scarsguard or the long lingering shot of a woman peeing on a guy looking at the Eiffel Tower.

I'm interested in the emotional heart of that story. And for whatever reason, wherever he is with his art or his life or expectations, Donald Glover does not want to give me that story in the way that I might prefer it or expect it. And that is his right. And I'm so happy we're podcasting about it. it and that there's more episodes to come. But that has left me in this place with it.

Yeah. I thought that there was an increasing, like, you know, you talked about, like, you know, whether or not Atlanta was for us or not. And I totally think that's a possibility. I think that there was some stuff in this series, this season, that was about the show's relationship to both itself and to its audience. Some of that could be seen as, like, straight up just trying to confound the audience. And some of it could be like, look like this is the show that we set out to make. And a lot of stuff has happened to us as creators over the last couple of years where we're being pulled in lots of different directions. So to keep this interesting and to keep this fresh, we're going to mess around.

You know what I mean? Like we're not just going to be like here's Ern's next stop in Europe. And here's another funny little adventure that Darius goes on that winds up being profound. at the end. A lot of it doesn't make sense on a surface level. I think that there are messages in this season. I think there's a lot of stuff about being the other, you know, and maybe there's a lot of stuff about being the other as a viewer that I haven't quite articulated or unpacked yet. I think ultimately was it like pleasurable to watch? Not really. You know, like it wasn't either shocking in the way that Teddy Perkins was or

hilarious or moving until then that was what I think almost like overwhelmed me about the final scene with Van and her friend on the bench because I was like it's almost like even with withholding that so much like so you know it's been there but it hasn't been on screen all season and then you get like 45 seconds of it and you're like holy shit but you know it's hard

when you're like, I don't know what I'm seeing, what is real, what is not? Like, because for most of this episode, I was like, is this a daydream, you know, or something? Because, like, she obviously has been there long enough to start appearing in magazines and have this life. Is this taking place basically since, I guess, white fashion or whatever? Like, what, like, is this the parallel story of what Van has been up to while the rest of the season has been happening? Yeah, I like. Is that a silly question to even ask? No, I, well, that's the thing.

think because I feel like it was a little bit in a way. You can't say this season and the show doesn't commit, but I feel like there was an element of it that was teetering in the middle that caused me some trouble because I like the surreality of it. But sometimes the surreality didn't go far enough, weirdly, you know, like to put her own mental state on the screen in this way, where she's harvesting hands to be served at an Ortolan succession style dinner that Alexander Scarsgaard is late for because he's been arrested because she planted crack in his room. I mean, yeah, okay. He gets off on the humiliation sexually.

Yeah. And then lead, and then end with the emotion. I mean, I was worried they weren't going there. And I was glad and relieved in the shape of the episode that that scene existed to help balance what came before. But it almost was a little bit neither here nor there. And I, it feels, sometimes it feels churlish to criticize this show because the show exists because Donald Glover has done something that is so monumental

and so rare. and so noteworthy and worthy of celebration, which is he reached a point in his career at such a bizarrely young age where he was like, now I'll just do it myself. I'm going to bet on me. He did it in his music career, and it worked. He did it with his acting career,

and he did it with his creative career as a writer, director, and as a person, right? And it's legendary. The stories that they were like, here's how FX was like, okay, we'd like to make a show with you. Here's how we make a show. And he's like, no, I'll rent me a house

and I'll put my friends in it and we'll give you a season of TV. He bet on himself. and FX to its credit bet on him, and man, did it work? So he shouldn't be listening to us necessarily. He shouldn't be taking, you know, he should, it has served him well. And I look forward to essays and think pieces and reactions as to why people are reading hands, because I'm not there, and that may be more of a judgment on me than it is on

the show itself. I think that if there's anything tinging our reaction to it, it's probably a sort of selfish disappointment because we love the show so much and we love these actors and characters, you know, and not having, as I keep saying, three of my favorite working actors on screen for 50% of the season was a bummer. It doesn't mean it's bad choice. It was just a bummer. And the element of the season that did feel kind of reactive, sometimes defensive, sometimes intentionally provocative to a degree that I didn't even realize. Like, for example, the Rich Wigger episode to last week, the black and white one,

I didn't know that the guy playing the rich benefactor is a infamous and now recently passed away like TikTok provocateur who said horrific, misogynistic, inflammatory comments about black women. I didn't know that because of that's, that never crossed my transom wire. Right.

And Charles and Van were talking about it and so troubled and puzzled by it. And it was a choice. It was a choice. You know, it's like Kendrick having Kodak Black on his album. It's a provocation and it's a choice. And it's interesting and it's worthy of conversation and discussion. Not by me.

I don't think in this case. But that was an element of the season that deserves to be considered and unpacked. Is there anything about the way that this season unfolded that makes you feel like they could just do absolutely any? I mean, I think that there's almost like a feeling like and then season four, they'll go back to basics. You know, they'll go home. they'll revisit what Atlanta means to them, what the other people, all these characters mean to one another,

that there will be some sort of resolution. There's part of me that it doesn't necessarily expect that at all, given what we saw in season three. Do you think that that's necessarily, is that necessary? Is that necessary to have like a closing of the, like a final piece of punctuation for the sentence as they do this fourth season?

It's not necessary, but I think we want it. But I think, again, what we're seeing is just in large scale, Donald Glover rejecting the way things have been done, let alone whether the way they ought to be done. Because we often, there are people, like writers and creators that we really admire. And Glover has referenced the Sopranos. I referenced it before in a different context. But like David Chase famously, this is not a secret, felt trapped by his creation. Right.

And was just like, I will pour everything I can into this and keep feeding the beast. but I cannot wait for this to be done so I can finally, finally break free of expectation and TV and the mob and make movies like inspired me. And he got to the end of it and he made a pretty good movie

and then he couldn't get another one made and then he made a soprano sequel that ended up, prequel that ended up back on HBO and he's in his 70s. You know? And I think Donald Glover is just like, I think I've lost interest in this, at least in the way it was.

And I don't see why I have to service a fan base for four or five, six seasons, because that's what people who have successful TV shows do. And more power to him. Yeah. He's just like, I'm not doing that anymore. And FX, again, it's a risky bet, but they're like, be bet on talent,

to have longevity on that side of the ball in this town. And so that's what they did. I mean, look, that he's going to Amazon. This is the other side of the conversation that we were having about Star Wars, which is that if you want to sort of untangle yourself from the tentacles of big IP and corporate storytelling and stop being on this nostalgia hamster wheel where you're just constantly like a mouse running through a maze waiting

to get like a hit of Thanos, you know, then you're going to like get some stuff that is like genuinely confounding. And some stuff that could just be like, you know what, man, here's my, here's my amnesiac. And you guys might not get it for a while. And then maybe down the line, you'll like three or four songs. And, and it will make sense. as part of the entire tapestry of my discography. But in rainbows is coming. It'll be cool. I hope so.

Yeah, I like in rainbows a lot. I like that smile record a lot too. I really appreciate that framing because you can't have it both ways. We can't do what we did for half of a podcast and then have the takeaway be, but also don't take insane swings and risks. Right, right. No, a hundred times out of 100, I want this season of Atlanta. It's just been, you know what, it's almost a unique experience to go through a

television show and just be like, I sincerely, like, didn't get parts of this or parts of this just didn't work for me, even though it looks exquisite and is funny or did this. Because most of the time when you and I are out on a show, individually or together, it's just because it's like bad. You know what I mean? Because it just didn't, it's just not working for us. Or they're like, oh, you guys had to tell extra story for three episodes and it completely sucked the life out of this thing or whatever.

That didn't happen here. Nobody here didn't do their job. You know what I mean? Like Stephanie Robinson who wrote this episode or Hero Moray who directed a bunch of them or Donald or when they were on screen, Lekeith and Bryant. Like, everybody did their job.

Everybody was bought in to a vision that we're having trouble focusing and seeing clearly. And that is 100 times out of 100, I will take that over another Star Wars or MCU show. Well put. All right, let's wrap it up there. We'll be back Monday night with the season finale of Better Call Saul. We'll recap that. So Monday evening will be here. And yeah, man, I can't wait for that.

I'm looking forward to it. Have a great weekend, Andy. Have a great weekend. Kai McMullen, who's our producer. And we'll talk to you guys on Monday. Happy birthday, Bernskys. See, I didn't know. You didn't want me to slip it in. Keep you on your toes.