The Watch - ‘Stranger Things’ Season 3 Mega-Pod | The Watch

Episode Date: July 8, 2019

We break down the entirety of ‘Stranger Things’ Season 3, including our favorite things from the season (1:05), where the show fell short (43:58), who won the season (57:42), and some predictions for the fourth season (65:53). Major Spoilers for the third season in the episode. Host: Chris Ryan Guest: Mallory Rubin Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm editor at Theringer.com and joining me in the studio slinging that USS Butterscotch. It's Mallory Rubin. Such an honor to be on the ocean of flavor with you. What's up, Mal?

What's up? Mallory and I are here to talk about Stranger Things Season 3. You know, initially we had decided, we talked about breaking this up into two. We were going to do the first four episodes and then the second four episodes on Thursday. But I feel like this season is very much a complete story. And it's really difficult to sort of arbitrarily pick an episode to stop at. So I will say that this is a, this is a spoiler pod.

And, you know, we guys, we had a long weekend. It came out on Thursday. It's Monday now. By the time you hear this, it'll be like later on Monday afternoon. So there has been a lot of time to watch these episodes. If you want to save it until you're done, that works. I may hit this again on Thursday with some other. folks, so there will be other opportunities to talk about it. But it just felt like with the long

week, and maybe we're part of the problem. This is why nobody knows how to talk about Netflix shows, is because of people like us, which is burning through the episodes. Maybe so, but I don't know how you stop once you start. That's the thing, is that it's such a mood, Stranger Things is such like a fun place to hang out, that you kind of don't want to leave and it's hard to extend it. And I would also say that like the story isn't something that I want to spend a week trying to unpack. You know, I'm just like,

let's just keep going. It's not like Thrones or I'm like, oh, it's time to get to, I got to go to Reddit. I got to see what people think about the Night King's motivations. It's like,

okay, it's like Russians and Demigorgans, and I got it. Let's go for it. Let's keep pushing ahead. So Mal and I are going to break it down like this. We have some overall thoughts.

We're going to talk about what we loved, maybe what we didn't love so much. We're going to talk about who won the season. If there are any big losers, any underused parts, and we're going to talk about the ending.

I will say, Why don't we try to... Let's just go ahead. You can go ahead and let it rip because I know how much the ending meant to you. So I don't want to stop you from talking about the ending. This is a podcast for when you finish Stranger Things. I think that's the best thing.

You've been warned. Yeah. So let's get right into it. What were your overall thoughts on season three? I loved it. I honestly really loved it. I found the finale and Hopper's death, which I'm sure we will discuss at length.

and land on whether we should be using air quotes or on death. I think so. Absolutely devastating. I was a wreck. This is a great place to start because we've just gone through it. Poor Kaya. Oh, boy. Sorry, Kaya.

Waiting for her boyfriend to watch season three. Monday morning we're at 1109 and the whole season just got spoiled. If there's one person who really took Chris's, We're dividing this into two pods. Promise, seriously. It was Kaya. I think I just saw the physical manifestation of what the Watch Facebook group is doing right now. No.

So, yeah, obviously, I wanted to talk a lot about this because it is the emotional knockout punch of the season of the series so far. Yes. And yet is, I would say, Vegas is not even taking bets on whether he comes back. Interesting. He is definitely coming back. He is the American in the prison cell. You cannot do this show without David Harbor.

I don't think you would do this show without David Harbor. David Harbor seems more doing this show than anybody else involved with the show. It's changed his life. It's changed his career. This is not a Ted Danson or this is not like a George Cudy leaving ER situation. He loves doing stranger things. Yeah. And I think for as poignant as that moment was when L finds this letter

this speech that he never actually gave to her and Mike about respecting boundaries but also about feelings feelings change I felt like it was a little bit dull by the fact that it's it's like obvious that he's coming back so should we do this now should we go into the cases for how he clearly is coming back and also what I think is one extremely powerful counterpoint

though I will say only one counterpoint to maybe like a dozen strong bits of evidence that he's returning. Yeah. So, first of all, I think if we just step back outside of the story and think about how the Duffer brothers make stranger things, and I say this in a sincerely judgment-free way, they clearly respond to what people like about the show. Oh, yeah.

Right? Yeah. Okay, so emblematic of that would be something we've already discussed, which is Steve. Yeah. Initially planning to kill him off. Did we talk about that on this podcast or on the... on the video.

I can't even remember. I think we mentioned it. We definitely talked about in the video. I think we may have mentioned on the pod. The original plan, I think, was for Steve to die in season one, right? Right. But he was such a charismatic presence, and they fell in love with him, and then, of course, decided to keep him alive throughout season one.

And then when you see how Steve the Hare Harrington resonates with the audience, you not only keep him, but you recalibrate his storyline to say, well, what was so charming? It was seeing him with these unlikely pairings. Let's lean into that fully. Okay. That's just one example. I think it is irrefutable. Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I am deep in the harbor hive

and cannot really see clearly beyond it. Yeah. And I'm happy to be deep in the hive. Clearly he's the best thing about the show. Yeah. I mean, in addition to the themes of friendship and connectedness and change, etc., all the things that we've explored that make the show so special, he's been the thing that people say

All right, maybe I am overstating it. He's one of the things that people love most about the show. I would say he is the... I was going to say he's the breakout star, but Instagram follower accounts would prove me wrong in terms of the kids are actually the breakout stars. Yes. I think that he is the maybe the adult heart of the show.

Oh, yeah, for sure. And he... I think if you look at screen time in season three, and that's actually one of the things I want to get to you later and that I found to be a bit of a struggle in certain parts.

I mean, I love all the time we got with Hopper, but it's coming at the expense of something, as is introducing new characters. By definition, comes at the expense of something, especially when they're going back from nine episodes to eight. So, there's a lot of Hopper.

There's just a lot of hopper, and it's wonderful, and I cherished every single second of it, but I think that speaks to the fact that they know that he is, in many ways, one of the key heartbeat to the show. Now, maybe that's just,

to make the death land even more impactually, give us all this time with him and then rip him away and make it hurt even more. But I think the fact that he was so present, it's just like how can you make stranger things without that character? Okay, so that's one bit of evidence that he would be returning.

Another one, and this is a huge one, obviously, into your Reddit point, like we're not going to dive into Reddit. This is something people are diving into Reddit about. Who could be the American? Who could be the American? The American reference in the post-credit scene in the Russian seller

where we get to see a demigorgon again. it stands to reason that it's hopper, right? I mean, there is another candidate. It could be Brenner. It is a very compelling candidate. Matthew O'Dine, deciding to give up his next season tickets and move to Arctic Russia. Yeah.

But at the end of season one, the last time we see him, you know, 11 vanishes from the school where that war is taking place and then, of course, is alive and was in the upside down. So maybe something similar happened, and he was transported and then pulled out during one of the other Russian experiments. That could be true, Brenner. But it could also obviously be true for Hopper.

We also went through this with Will in the first season where Will, we went through the full, actually the full Peter Gabriel Heroes montage, death, reckoning with death scene. When they pull Will's body out of the reservoir or the quarry or whatever, and they have the bad news relay, which me and Andy have always talked about,

like Broadchurch Perfected, where it's essentially like people finding out about tragedy and drawing that out for his line like the way that the news gets passed along and they did that in the first season and the second season, right? Chris, I'm so glad you mentioned that specifically because what musical cue did we get at the end of Peter Gabriel's heroes? Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah. So to go back to a specific song where we were dealing with potential grief for a character we ultimately didn't need to feel it before seems deliberate, right? Another thing. So what is the opening shot of the entire season?

it's seeing the Russians vaporized during the botched experiment a year before this occurs. Yeah. Because the scientist before he kills Alexi's boss says you have one year, right, before they're going to run it again. So we just don't, we don't see the body. Like this is a classic, we didn't see the body. And I think that... Just like Stannis. Yeah. Just like Stannis.

You know, we didn't get to see the beheading carried through. And so Chris assured of this day that Stannis is out there. They're just waiting to kick Gendry out of Storm's End. That's right. The fact that we get such an operatic cinematic close-up of what happens to those bodies when the beams hit them and then don't get that in the scene that that is specifically, that opening is specifically there to prime us for, again, feels very intentional. I don't know about you.

I went back and went frame by frame making sure. Because the screen cuts to black after the beautiful moment between high. Hopper and Joyce where he gives her the nod, do it. Like, I'm ready. This has to be, we have to do this. We have to save our kids. We have to save the world. That was a mess at that point. A mess. And then we go to Black. And then the next time that we return to this setting,

it's from the other perspective where we would clearly be able to see him if he was there. Right. So did he get sucked into the gate before it closed? Did he jump? Did he run for the gate? Is that how he ended up in Russia? if he is in fact there. Did he sneak out some other way? I mean, this is literally a maze of secret tunnels built under a mall.

Yeah. Plenty of possibilities there. The speech, which I want to get to in a second, but something that's happening as the speech is playing out at the end, is this is the thing you asked when we were previewing the season. Could back to the future be a time travel clue? And he says, like, you know, wanting to go back. That's the major theme of the speech,

is wanting to basically go back in time. But what happens with the, way that sequence is edited as we are hearing these words, as we are processing those thoughts. They do a lot of... We get a double move. Yeah. We literally get the move twice. So we see the packing up of the U-Haul, Mike saying goodbye to Elle, all of the farewells.

We see a shot of them in the truck. They've left. Mike goes back home and hugs his mother. And then they start again from Elle reading the letter on the floor and Winona Ryder comes into the room. Yeah. Right. So what does that mean? that mean to you? Well, so I think that that's a little bit of a twist on one of the possibilities.

It's not necessarily as Hopper alive or dead. It's... Can they turn back the clock? Can they turn back the clock? That's also another thing to consider. Finn Wolfhardt's growth spurt would suggest no. Finn Wolfhardt is having an Admiral David Robinson on the submarine growth spurt. He's in peak young Boris in the Goldfinch zone right now, and I love it. And then if you look at the speech itself. Beautiful, wrenching. You know, we knew the parts that were supposed to be in it, that Joyce had kind of coached him up on, all this stuff about how you're supposed to talk to your kids, about change, about respect, about feelings, about boundaries. And we learn in this, sequence, that there's this whole part that he sat down and wrote on his own for L that,

obviously he never shared with her and that she gets to experience now, but too late to do anything about it. There are so many specific clauses, sentences, freeings that would seem to signal that he is either not dead or will return, a few of them. And again, this is all building up to what I think is the one real counterpoint. Okay. I can't remember what we're countering. That he is really dead. Okay. Well, we'd be countering that he's definitely coming back with one bit of evidence that he's really dead. Yeah. Okay. So in the speech itself, I cannot possibly read it all because I will weep. Why don't you read it?

And I'll stop you. Where's the speech? Here, I'll give it to you right now. Why do you want me to just do it from memory on song last night? I'll do it right now. Okay. Hold on, let me paste it for you. You want me to read this speech.

I can't do it because I'll sob the whole time. But don't you think... But I want to call out all of the specific lines in it. Chris, it's at the bottom of the Google Doc. You want me to read this? I do. Do you want me to read this in the way... It's your podcast.

Do you do whatever... The way I do a Creamy Heinz Mayo read? Please don't. feelings. Jesus. The truth is, for so long, I've forgotten what those even were. I feel so bad for Kyya. I'd been stuck in one place in a cave, you might say. Do you want to stop me there? A deep dark cave. So I've been stuck in one place in a cave, you might say, a deep dark cave. Kind of like a cell in Russia. Literally describing what we see in the post-credit sequence. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so there's that. That's a clue. And then I left some egos out in the woods and you came into my life. For the first time and a long time,

I started to feel things again. I started to feel happy. Lately, I guess I've been feeling distant from you. That's another one. Like, I'm in Russia. Like, you're pulling away from me or something, like you're moving. Mm-hmm. Or not.

Like, your stay. She's moving. She's moving. With the buyer's family. Right. Yeah. And even just the pulling away of if he is in some facet of the upside down and she no longer has her powers at this point, that's a divide too. That's a point in a way to.

Where's Indiana Child Services on this one? Listen. Because, like, I would say that the wheelers are a more. suitable hang for her. Well, Joyce has always been the one, even since the sensory deprivation, a pool in the school, like hugging her, making sure she has comfort.

Your girl Blono, who had an absolutely iconic run from start to finish in this season, quietly had one of the funniest moments in the entire season when Hopper and Joyce are desperately trying to find the kids, and she's just like, it's summer. I know, I like that.

That's very accurate to the 80s. And so maybe that's where they are. where Indiana Child Protective Services is too. Lately, I guess I've been feeling distant from you, like you're pulling away from me or something. I miss playing board games every night, making Triple Decker ego extravaganzas at sunrise,

watching Westerns together before we doze off. But I know you're getting older, growing, changing. I guess if I'm really being honest, that's what scares me. I don't want things to change. So I think that's maybe why I came here to stop that change, to turn back the clock. Okay. So came here.

To make things go back to how they were. turn back the clock to make things go back to how they were. So that would again seem to suggest portend some kind of time travel. Some kind of time travel. But what's he trying to stop the demigorgon from ever coming? Like the upside down from ever arriving in Hawkins?

Or L. ever matriculating into the real world? I don't think he's trying to stop anything that has to do with the magic. That's what L is going to have to contend with, I think. But we'll get to that in a second. Hang on to that thought. Continue. So I think that maybe that's why I came here to stop that change,

to turn back the clock, to make things go back to how they were. But I know that's naive. That's just not how life works. It's moving, always moving, whether or not you like, whether you like it or not. And yeah, sometimes that's painful. Sometimes it's sad. And sometimes it's surprising, happy. So you know what?

Keep growing up, kid. Don't let me stop you. Make mistakes. Learn from them when life hurts you because it will. Remember the hurt. The hurt is good. It means you're out of that cave. But please, if you don't mind for the sake of your poor old dad,

Keep the door open three inches. So let's talk about that last line. Keep the door open three inches. Right. So. What door? What the gate? The gate, right?

And the gate is open a little bit. It seems to be very similar in that sense, even though the circumstances are different, to what happened at the end of season two when L closed the gate. With her, yeah. And the mind flare was still there, right? The upside down didn't go away. And also the mind flare was in the world.

And now there's the whole sequence in this season where they explore and Will kind of cracks the, oh, what if we didn't lock him out? We shut him in with us. But the fact that closing the gate does not keep a close forever is clearly established. And also, if you look at it, just literally if you look at it. Yeah, when Paul Reiser shows up.

Exactly. For his, I'm here for 12 seconds. Make the check table to Paul Reiser. Mad about you, Inc. Amazing stuff. There is that little, that sliver of electric orange where the gate just closed

just as there was before. So maybe it can open again and maybe that's the key to getting him back. Yeah. What is the counterpoint to all of it? It's the middle part of this speech. But I know that's naive. That's just not how life works. It's moving, always moving, whether you like it or not. I can't remember read the rest because I'm going to cry and I'm trying not to cry today, Chris. But

the theme of the season, the theme of the show in a lot of ways, but certainly yeah, certainly the theme of the season is change. And I think in some way, maybe a slightly more nuanced reading of it is the balance between change and constance in your life. But this is the boldest, bravest, and most painful thing they've ever done on the show. And undoing it would I think, and this is the one case for him really being dead, it would undo the potency of that message.

That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. I think it would be really sad if he was gone. Devastating. And it wouldn't be unprecedented to do the hon. Solo frozen, I mean, but Han Solo is frozen carbonate. You know what I mean? Like, it's not unprecedented to do this, to faint like someone's dead. They really went so far into reckoning with that death, though.

You know, and you get to see three months later, and it's like this surrogate family that Joyce has put together of her kids and 11. These kids move, them, them leaving, you know, everybody kind of having their tears, but realizing like, oh, we'll see you at Thanksgiving, I guess. I don't know where they're moving to. but that suggestion that there could be this just new version of this friend group and this family, it would feel like not cheap, but I just feel like I didn't mind it when Will died because it was about belief that like the whole thing of season one is Joyce saying what if it's the one? What if it's the one time out of a hundred that it's not he's been kidnapped by his father or he's missing with some friends? and it's that constant faith in the miracle, I guess, that the first season rests on. But for them to do it again and for them to do it in this fashion,

I think it would just be trying to have its cake and eat it too little too much. Yeah. So I do, I agree with you completely. I do think that there are ways in which we could still have Hopper on the show without Hopper being alive or without time travel. undoing the death. Like, it is ultimately a show about magic, magical powers. Not about, but that features magic and magical powers.

That's a big crucial conversation I wanted to have with you. I mean, I think that was sort of my overall take on it. It was like, what are they foregrounding and what are they backgrounding? And I really, really, really enjoyed this season. I thought it evolved in fun ways. It stayed the same in fun ways. It took on different feels that it had before. It had, like, different vibes.

But ultimately, had some of the same. charms that it had when it first debuted in 2016. But I wouldn't even go as far as they disappointed as much as I noted how much they foregrounded after about two episodes all the missions and all the like, we have to figure this part out. Now we have to go do this. And now we have to go do that. And it didn't feel as lived in as the previous two seasons to me, even though I felt like

the ending was pretty fulfilling. Do you think that eight episodes is enough? No, I mean, I honestly was like this show could be a 15 to 22 episode network show in a lot of ways. I mean, obviously, it's expensive and it would be hugely time-consuming for those guys to be doing it like that. But I felt like it's a show a little bit caught between being a three-hour movie and a 12-to-15 episode show that's got a little bit more runway of like, hey, this is what it's like when you're going through puberty. and you're like in school and you're falling in and out of love and your friends are changing. And you just would get more than just Nancy saying, what about a story about how malls are changing America?

And that's it. And there's like a little bit of like a protest. You could actually get into some of the stuff about their lives and then have the supernatural stuff in the background and slowly bring it to the foreground. And I think for some reason this felt more like they started out making Fast Times of Ridgemont High and then like two episodes. in, they were like, let's make a James Cameron movie. Right. Which is fine. Like, I thought it was pretty fun. But I just think if I'm watching it and I'm thinking, what are the

prestige TV executions they could have had? I think that they went away from that and were just like, let's just have like a bunch of crazy chases and expeditions and end it with a spectacular as special effects display. Literally a fireworks display. Yes. Yeah, I wonder if in some ways, and again,

I loved the season, but if in some ways they learned the wrong lesson from the bottle episode blowback in season two. But you were talking about, like, they obviously do listen. Yeah. They do see how things are receipt. Right. And it was like, okay, we added. We went from eight episodes in season one to nine episodes in season two.

We attempted to widen the mythology, broaden the world, add more, add more characters and places. And people didn't like it. People didn't want it. But that doesn't mean we don't want more time with the people. but we already have. Yeah. Or that there's not another way to explore

that other path of widening the mythology, which I think we should talk about a little later when we get to 11 and what's going on with her powers and just the way her powers

function in the show. But there just wasn't a lot of time with Nancy and Jonathan where they weren't just running away from monsters. And the few moments that we get with them that are something different

were like, I thought exceptionally powerful. They were really good. Yeah. And it's like, man, Even the difference between where Jonathan's just like, I can't afford to quit this job on principal. You know, that was cool. Like these guys living in small town, Indiana, in the summer before,

they're probably going to have to all go different directions anyway in terms of the older kids. Like, Steve can't get into college. I think Nancy did get into school. But that's actually very emblematic. We don't really know what's going on with Nancy and Jonathan in college. Right. We don't know if it's because Jonathan needs to save up money. there was so much talk, so much like a reference from Joyce to Lonnie,

but about how Jonathan's dream is to go to NYU. Is that not his dream anymore? Is it just not possible in the moment? That's something I really want to know about him. And is there a relationship between the sort of more fantastical things these people experience and how it changes like their outlook on life? Like Jonathan might be like my brother has been possessed by demons and captured and almost died. I can't go be like a photographer of REM while they're.

on the road in Athens, Georgia or whatever. So Natalia Dyer, who plays Nancy, she basically said that in one of the interviews that she conducted. You know, I can't imagine, in essence, what she said was, I can't imagine Nancy just sitting down in class at college based on what she's seen. But I found myself many times watching this saying, wait a minute, was Nancy a junior? Is she in the summer before senior year?

What's going on? Where are these people in their lives? Yeah. enough time to linger in those moments, you know? And I do, I do think that to that foregrounding, backgrounding tension that you're identifying, it, you have a couple really great episodes where you get to luxury it and being back in this world, being back with the people you care about, setting up what the season's going to be about, and then everybody splits apart, but you know, you, you know, it's not even a matter of hours. In some cases, it's a matter of like minutes

before they have to, by definition, be together again. In terms of the season breakdown, I actually thought, yeah, I watched this all with my wife over the last few days. And we were like, I remember we watched the first two. And I think she was like really, she's a huge fan of this show. And she was like, I think she might actually come on on Thursday to talk about it. Yes, baby. She, uh, she loves this show. But I think the first two episodes threw her off.

Because the first two episodes are basically like kind of like the Stranger Things version. It's like literally watching a television show. going through puberty. Yeah. Because it's like these, formerly like these adorable kids going, getting into like girls. It's super,

it's pretty salacious. It's like that kind of schlocky Karen Wheeler at the pool, watch everybody's watching Billy. And I think that the trying on clothes montage is in the second episode. And it's basically like

Mulrats and Susie do you copy feel very Sam Ramey. They're like very evil dead. And then the humor is more like national lampoons. It's like kind of like what the 80s were sort of like pop culturally and not as much Steven Spielberg. And then three and four that Sean Levy directed, I thought were just like the perfect equilibrium. Like they had some of the stuff of the first two episodes.

They had the best stuff of the earlier seasons. And they just felt incredibly competent and like exciting. And then I thought the latter few episodes were kind of not incomprehensible, but like there was just like a lot of like the key, the gate. The Russians. Like it's Terminator. to run over here, we have to run over there, the air ducts. And there's just like a lot of side missions and campaigns, which is fine and was super enjoyable. But I really missed Nancy and Jonathan waking up late and having to get to work.

Yeah, I think for, I agree with you. And I think for me, I'm trying to think of how to phrase this. And David Harbor hanging out in the general store. I felt like I always was very cognizant of the clock ticking down against me. Yeah. So I loved, loved the car. ride with Hopper, Joyce,

Bowman, the homie Burry Bowlin, crushing it as usual, and Alexi. What a run for Gelman. Just amazing stuff. The swing from this to flea bag. It also doesn't have to change his hair at all. Like just gets a pair of glasses,

comes through, it's like right off the set of fleabag and then does Murray. And then they're like, this hair is actually perfect. We're going to give you the code name Bald Eagle. But the car ride where Balman is playing out almost an identical script to the thing that he did

with Jonathan and Nancy in season two where he's like you guys haven't fucked? And this time it is with adults and not children. He's encouraging to have sex sex in his home. So felt easier to appreciate it

at this time. But that sequence, which I love the great moment where Alexi and Baumann are chuckling like they haven't had sex, I could have been in that car with them for four episodes. But in the back of my mind

the whole time, just like Will with the little twinge in his neck, I'm thinking... Sort of... That's the only thing Will does. It goes, he's here. I want to talk about that. Every moment that we're with that group of people, I'm thinking, this is just one more moment that Hopper and L aren't together

again. Or that Joyce has absolutely no idea where her kids are, right? And so... Joyce is becoming incredible. I want to know what the dosage is for Joyce's clonopin prescription. What's in that was on you? Willa about my son, who I definitely identified in a morgue once.

I have no idea where he is. And my other son has a live-in girlfriend. Yeah. A living girlfriend who is needlessly sneaking out the window. I know. Nancy, everyone knows you're there. Yeah. It's like, just go through the front door.

It's not the scarlet letter. It's okay. Where were we? Where were we? What's next? Well, I think that's what we loved. I mean, we're talking about what we loved. They were talking about the...

Our reactions have bled into what we love. What we love. What I loved is the relationships between the pairs. I thought that they did a nice job. These kids, it's inevitable that a cast this size, I would say maybe we are slightly heavy right now. I think that we've added a few too many speaking parts, frankly. And I, like, love Robin, laughed at Erica,

enjoy Max to some extent. Max was, like, an effective character to have, like, pulling an L away from Mike a little bit. I like the fact that they let Mike be like annoying. Yeah. A bit. And I really enjoyed the groups. But what this season essentially structurally was was Nancy and Jonathan investigating the sort of the thing body snatchers plot line.

Steve, Robin and Dustin investigating the Russians. And the rest of the kids doing the mind flare. And Joyce and Hopper essentially doing like. an overarching investigation into all of it. It was a lot of like Scooby-Doo stuff, which is like essentially the DNA of this story. I understand that. But I like I keep going back to it.

I just would have been fine with more hanging out. Yeah. No, I feel similarly. I really enjoyed. But when they all get together, you're almost like, oh, that would have been really unwieldy. There's like 15 people standing here.

Like it's hard for them to have a normal conversation. Totally. It wouldn't actually have felt natural for all of them to be together for so long. And in some ways, I think that the things that were lamenting do feel very true to life and true to the themes of the show. So, for example, Dustin being away from the group for so long. On the one hand, I love that they kept Dustin and Steve together because that was so clearly one of the genius master strokes of season two. You don't go away from peanut butter and jelly. Totally.

Unless you're going to put a little fluff or nutter on it this time or something, which is what we got. but Dustin not being with his party for almost the entire season really hurt. And yet I'm going on a seesaw here because while that's painful, again, that feeds into the theme that people do change and they do grow apart. And hopefully you can still come back together even when you grow apart. And I weirdly thought that despite the usage rate questions I have about whether, in general, which I think we'll talk about in what we didn't love as much. I think that Will was a really surprisingly poignant lens into those quandaries that you have when you're a young person and you're trying to grapple not only

with the change in your own life, but the change around you. Yeah, and people are like moving on to more different interests. And there's obviously a little bit of like, we have to watch out for Will because he's been through so much and we're supposed to be these buddies. but honestly like Lucas and Mike obviously like we're just into girls now and we're into like burping and farting and being teenagers

and Will still like I want to be willow wise and dress up like a wizard and like create a fantasy world that we like never leave. Yeah. And it's ironic because he was the one who winds up leaving, right? Like I mean...

That was one of my favorite moments of the season was Will and Mike and Lucas having it out in the basement and that really painful what did you think we were just going to play games in my basement forever. Because as he says, that is what he thought. And that is what he wants in that moment.

And to see him go to a lair that he and Jonathan built with their bare hands that was literally like we get never-ending story heavily in the finale of the show. But that was literally their Fantasia, you know, like a monument to the power of imagination. to see him tear that down was like really agonizing, but I thought it was important. And I wanted them to actually like lean into that a little bit more because then I get it, the world is in jeopardy. Their lives are in jeopardy.

It's hard to focus on your tormented soul and existential dread entering your life. But we just moved on so quickly from that until we return to it, you know, again at the end, obviously. But I don't know. It's an interesting thing that's, I think, we're realizing in this conversation is that the things we loved about it are also the things that sometimes didn't work as well, either because there's not enough time

or because the balance of characters as the cast has expanded doesn't allow you, you being the show, to explore it. It would have to be a different kind of show. I mean, I don't think it necessarily would have to be any less popular. I think there's a fine distinction between what this show is and Friday Night Lights. You know what I mean? Like, I think there's a lot of,

room to play between every season there is a huge battle between a psychic superhero teenage girl and an other interdimensional demon versus there could be if you had said like okay so the first two seasons of this show there's this showdown with like you know it's a mind flayer and the demigorgan and the upside down and there's this evil lurking under hawkins we don't know what it is but one of the problems I have with the season is that a lot of the show was the kids try to figure out what we already knew. We already knew that Billy was taken over by something else. We already knew that there were Russians and Hawkins.

We already knew that the gate was still open. We already knew all this stuff. The kids are like, oh, what happened? They're catching up with us. I think it would have been fine to take the upside down out of it for a season. To have it just be, there's something weird going on, but we don't know what it is. And meanwhile, we're all going through these changes.

Now, I don't necessarily know if 13-year-olds care about that when they're watching. Like, when Bill's kids are like, this is the best show ever. I don't think they'd be like, it's the best show ever with no Demigorgon and with no fireworks display at the end of the season. But I do wonder whether or not season four would be even better if season three was just set up for it. And if you just look at Game of Thrones, they did plenty of seasons where the Knight King just showed up intermittently and looked on from a distance. He didn't have to be, like, they didn't have to fight the Night King at the end of every season. You're completely right.

But again, this gets back to the question of just how the show is structured. And it's core DNA because by definition, each season, we do get the three months later time jump in the finale here. But the bulk of every season takes place over just a few days, you know? And there's a huge passage of time between. And so while the show is simultaneously about this supernatural force in the world, and about the core nature of your humanity, it can't fully just be about the latter if you're not with those people all the time

and you're not with them for longer because you just return to them. We drop in. We drop in on Hawkins and we drop in, kind of just like the demigorgon, every so often to check in on who these people are and how they're doing. And I would also be in favor of an experiment to the contrary.

And I wonder if that's, now this gets into how long will the show run for because they've always said, right, four or five seasons? I think they've said there definitely will be a four, like, for the most part, almost everybody who's pressed on it is like we, and that the Duffers said that they could go five. Right. But more recent interviews, they're kind of like, I don't know how many times you can have this thing happen to these people every year. You know what I mean?

So I would be in favor of leaning into the fact that Elle has lost her powers and saying season four does not feature powers. And maybe she gave some vocabulary words. How about that? And a crisper syntax. Work on her repartee instead of her psychic abilities. Indeed. But you kind of can't do that if there's not going to be a fifth season then,

or a longer fourth season. You can't have season four for any prolonged stretch of time not involve the upside down and the mind player and resolving the core villain and magic of the story. Let's be 100% clear. Like this is, I would have to guess, Stranger Things is the most important thing to Netflix right now. I think Narcos is very popular.

I think they have shows that are incredibly popular. They have thriving businesses all over the place. But as you can find today, I think Lucas Shaw wrote about this in Bloomberg, it is their bid to have a billion-dollar franchise because you could see with the tie-ins. You could see with the Nikes and the New Coke coming back. I would be shocked if there isn't like the old school, like, the retro Tostitos bag. Every single time, like, there's, I think there's a Burger King tie-in, right?

And they have, like, a very clear, like, Whopper scene. There's a Baskin-Robbins. This is their big step out into franchising, toys, merchandise in a way that oranges the new black is not, you know? And that... Those Nike Tailwinds, though. My Ozark branded casino chips. I don't know.

I mean, that's not going to do it. but this is. So I would imagine that you could be seeing stranger things going well into the 90s, even with a different cast, you know, if need be. Well, that's where I sincerely don't want to keep returning to the worst episode in the franchise, but that's where the episode with eight is still so relevant because the best way, ultimately, to continue the franchise without diluting this story and this group of people, this group of characters, is to build out the world.

But you have to bring Brenner back to do that. You have to explain who these other people are and how their powers work. And so I am still, despite thinking that that didn't work the first time around, in favor of it. And I wonder if Elle losing her powers will be a way back in, that they will have to in some way seek out the people who made her in order to find out

how to restart her in some way. And then could that lead to finding one through seven, nine and ten, anything else. Or because of the Russians talking about all the gates that they had in Russia. Mm-hmm. Yeah, right. What else have they brought into the world? Are there other gates in America?

Are there other gates in different times? Like, would you just reset it? You know, I think that this is such a fascinating on-the-court, off-court narrative because these kids are getting very famous. Like, Vin Wolfheart is in the Goldfinch, like you said. I think Joe Kiri will probably be in a few things soon. Italia has been in stuff. Millie's got.

Harbors and Hellboy... 20 million Instagram followers. You know, I mean, there's only so long that I think they can spend nine months in Atlanta shooting this thing. And I thought that this season sort of portrayed the fact

that maybe it was scheduling conflicts, but there just wasn't that much free interaction between the characters. I'm not talking about having a scene where there's 12 kids in a room. I'm saying, for the most part, I felt like they were like, here are the days that we're going to shoot

these three people. And they're going to always be together and they're going to be on this mission. and they're not going to interact with each other. There's not going to be a day where Mike goes from hanging out at this place, then bikes home, sees his mom, hangs out with Holly and his mom and his sister, but then goes back out again. You know, it's all like he's here.

His mom doesn't know where he is. He hasn't, we haven't, not a lot speaking time for Holly until we got to the top of the Ferris room. Though, to Holly's credit, only one who saw the trees move in. I know. Only one who is like, are there ends in Hawkins now? Yeah. Yeah. Robin, another moment on Robin here in things we love. Sure.

I was very, very pro-Robin. Very pro-Miahawk, very pro-Robin. Super charmed by her, yeah. Incredible chemistry with everybody she shared a scene with. I loved the levity. I loved what felt very true to the nature of kind of ribbing someone who you appear with. And I absolutely loved the sexuality reveal. And near the end of the season, you know, this is not something. we've gotten on the show so far. And I think it's important and cool to build out the world

with people who are not all the same. Absolutely. Yeah. I thought that that was a really nice twist on the breakfast club. Like, is there going to be like an Ali Sheedy Emilio Estevez moment? And they, they tweaked it perfectly. And I thought that those two had great chemistry. Oh, yeah. I wish Steve had like more to do, I guess. I mean, he, he has. had plenty to do, but I think that there was like just, they basically were like, we're going to get Steve off this show and Nancy's going to be with Jonathan. And then I think that that love triangle would be great if that was still like an active going concern. Maybe we'll get it again. Yeah, maybe. So let's just take a quick break to hear from our sponsors. And Mal and I'll be back.

And we're going to talk about what we didn't love, big winner, big loser and the underused part of the season, maybe some hopes for season four. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by the loudest voice, the new Showtime Limited Event Series starring Russell Crow as Roger Ailes, the pivotal architect of Fox News. The loudest voice reveals the inside story of the success and secrets of the man who built Fox News from the ground up,

gaining unrivaled power and influence that reached all the way to the White House. Ailes was a media mastermind who left behind a powerful legacy yet resigned in disgrace after accusations surfaced of years of sexual harassment and abuse. It was his need to control everyone from his family and his friends to his sexual conquests

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I just wanted to say, I mentioned Evil Dead and National Ampoons, I thought, and Fast Times and the kind of PG-13-ish. Shouts to Phoebe Kitts. Yeah, I also thought they did. I almost wish this had like the we didn't really understand

that the the mind flare Demigorgan upside down stuff hadn't come in until like the very end and that the basically the plot

of the season was the thing body snatchers plot of people still being around but kind of being off and that would have been a really cool way

also to like talk about 80s America right like what is normative behavior or not but So I really dug that part. I thought, you know, we didn't really even talk about Billy yet.

We have not. My wife was like, I guess I'm stealing her dick, but she was like, they killed the hot guy basically. And I was like, true, but it would have been a really tough, tough road for him to get back into the mix here. Yeah. Killed a lot of women, you know? Like, he just really, he really had like a bunch of murders. And so I think it would have been tough for him to get that lifeguard job back. I feel like he would have found a way though, you know? Charming.

What he? Persuasive. Yeah? Yeah. I love that the, I mean, you mentioned fast times. I love that the hot, dripping wet pool moment is Billy's this time around. Yeah, right. Really, really wonderful.

We really had the Billy Karen romance ripped away from us before its time. Sure. That happened early. They did a nice job of showing why Ted is sort of like, you know, Ted with Holly lying on his lap was nice. That was sweet. Yeah. That was sweet.

So I really enjoyed all of that. What didn't I love? I love the Terminator movies. I think they're pretty boring when you rip them off. So I thought the Russian stuff was like smart. And it was good to be like, what if there was like you could bring the Cold War into this? But Hopper repeatedly beating up a Russian super soldier who was walking around Hawkins with a silencer was, I think I could have taken like, one or two less confrontations with that guy.

Do you have any questions about how a town in America? Apparently only has one cop because the other two cops are only in one scene each. And that's the thing is like those guys are probably busy. Like I know that, you know, like those deputies, I've seen them in other stuff. They're probably like, hey, if I'm only going to have X amount of lines or this big of a part, here's the days I can do it and you can shoot like to do one scene with me, you know? I thought at first you meant busy in Hawkins, which I do have some questions about how many people live in Hawkins. Like when we are introduced to the world and to the police station in particular, it's literally like mourning is for coffee and contemplation, right?

That's one of the iconic early hopper moments. Yes, yes. And it's like there's nothing to do. There's nothing to police. There aren't that many people. Interesting things aren't happening. You know, it's that classic idea. And now, man, the mayor's town fair is.

Poppin folks. More people at the Hawkins Town Fair. That was a county fair. So I do wonder whether there's some other towns involved. Although it's a county fair. I don't understand how Cariolis could be the guy who's like, it's a county fair, but it's like all paid for by me and to benefit my reelection. The fair, the pool, the mall, I know it's summer. It's a tax base. People are congregating in the same place. But how many people are there? Really? Because Main Street's, Main Street in America has fallen apart. I guess Star Court, they've pumped. some cash into the coffers? Well, at the expense of the

Ma and Pa shops on Main Street as we see them. And the American military and our way of life. So this is what I, as usual, got lost on a tangent there, but that's what I was starting to ask you. Is it strange to you at all that, yes, it's a small town, but it is also the epicenter

of the upside down entering the world and the American government while forced to drive off in a caravan in dramatic fashion at the end of season two, they surely keep in dabs.

And this is where the Russians are able to infiltrate. Like, is the government, did they stop paying attention? Right. How did they miss that? Right. It's like when at the end of two and they're like, we're going to get out of your hair for a bit, like they just didn't leave and leave like a security guard back there.

That was weird. Yeah. You can just wander around this old government facility where they were conducting experiments on children. Yeah, bring your motorcycle right in, beat up a cop, drive away. Joyce will get a couple of the letters and numbers on your license plate. Yeah. Great Joyce season.

Yeah, I do love Joyce. Yeah, really, really good Joyce season. Yeah. Really good Joyce is special. I'm so sad that Jopper didn't get to. What didn't I love? I'll start there. I am sorry if this is too predictable and too on brand.

I wanted Hopper and Joyce to hook up. Yeah. I wanted to get it. I wanted to have that moment. Isn't that the number one reason why Hopper's coming back? I hope so. I really hope so. I mean, Joyce has gone through a lot of pain, a lot of loss, obviously, a terrible relationship with Lonnie. Lost Bob. Finds herself thinking about Bob watching cheers, heating up the mixed veg and the lasagna. Yeah. And had just agreed to the date at Enzo's. That was such a sweet moment when Hopper told her that he,

can't be out late on Friday nights because he has to watch Miami Vice with Elle. Yeah. It was so beautiful and wonderful. So we had to start at seven, yeah. So I wanted them to hook up and just felt deprived. Honestly, felt deprived. Speaking of the buyer's family, I also, we started to talk about this earlier, but with Will, you know, we talked about him a lot when we were previewing the season.

Okay, our guy's going to get to live a little, you know. He did not. He did not. And especially, again, because I think he's responsible for giving us some of the more. Narrator voice, he didn't. didn't. Some of the more poignant moments early in the season where you think about the nature of change and people growing apart and when it's worth accepting that and when it's worth fighting

to stand in the way of that change. And then he became basically a just a warning system, you know, an alarm for the tingle in his neck is, okay, the mind fliers close. I know you're not a Harry Potter fan, but I hope you'll forgive me for making a couple comps because I found myself thinking about it a lot. That's the first time you said I hope you'll forgive me for making Harry Potter comps. It's the first time you've asked permission. Very, very, very, very reminiscent to me of Harry's scar as a warning sign for Voldemar being close.

The difference is that there is a vast richness, an ocean of flavor, if you will, beyond that for Harry's development as a character and role as a hero in the story. and what that does to him and how he combats that and works to combat that. And we just didn't get that with Will at all. And then you look at him holding that picture of the Ghostbusters and shaking not only with rage because he's mad at his friends, but with despair over losing that,

where is that the rest of the season? I just wanted so much more of that. And I also want more to understand about how this lingering presence of the Mindflare in him is affecting him. You know, that is not trauma that you shake. I like that he is still connected to that part of the story. Yeah, absolutely. But I want to know more about how it's affecting him.

Yeah, and it's interesting that they decided almost to, to like, in the first season, especially, Joyce is like this sort of overprotective, freaked out, anxious character. And in the third season, she's more action hero than she is neurotic mom, which I think is a great breath of fresh air. Yes, I like that. And if she had just been like shrill and chain smoking, but, you know, she's never the way. It's like Hopper has kind of taken on her new parent anxiety. But I did think that it was like a refreshing change of pace for Winona Ryder,

but didn't quite make sense in terms of like what the characters would probably be doing. I think Joyce would just be more resolute that her paranoia is well-founded. Yeah, that's a really good point. And I think probably again gets back to just needing more time with the characters. More time. Because I do, I really love. both of those developments. I love that Joyce gets

to actually play a meaningful role in the action and isn't just relegated to worrying. And not that she didn't always try. She was always the one who said, I believe I will prove this to you. But she's not on her recliner

with her phone in her hands this time. She's out in the world. And I loved Hopper grappling with how to be a father to Elle. I thought that that was some of the best stuff in the season. And also because of how invested I am in the jopper relationship,

the fact that they were able to then share those parts of their lives with each other, I loved as well, but it does always feel like it's coming at the expense of something else

that there's some sort of tradeoff, which again, by definition of the math of the story, there is, while we're speaking about moms, the Billy Mom sequence. Oh yeah, that was another thing that I was just like,

I don't understand this, honestly. Yeah. So I don't understand anything really about what that journey was where she just kept blindfolding herself and then like I found the source and so that the source would be the thing that she could undo Billy with with like finding his like the start of his pain was basically that was it so here's one of my biggest critiques of stranger things again a show that I love

this is something Jason I talk about a lot on binge mode not an original insight by any means but it is something that we focus on often fantasy stories have to have rules that make sense right they have to because you cannot allow yourself to fall fully into the world if you don't understand how the world works or if every time something new happens you're either pulling yourself out of it to ask a question about how or you're grappling with the DSX market of nature of some sort of convenient invention right and part of the ramification of the mind flare and the villain not being as fully realized though we get a little more of it the same thing. season. And that was one of the parts I liked about the Billy arc is that Billy is literally a voice for the Mind Flyers intentions.

Yeah. We still ultimately have more questions than answers. And we're probably more than halfway through this entire journey, we would think. So then with Billy in particular, it's both a magical, fantastical elements question and a character development question. on the one hand I want to know more about Billy because he's while extremely hot pretty one note

his one note is I'm hot and I'm a dick right I listen to Metallica and I am like I'm basically like he has like a nice like Christine moment like the Stephen King book

with his car in the small parking lot but yes he is essentially like I'm going to give Karen the workout of her life a burnout bully lifeguard and we did get some of the development in season two about his relationship with his father.

You know, we see that play out. It's not like this is totally out of nowhere. We know that he resents having to leave California. We know that that's part of why he's so cruel to Max. But does Billy have a rich and fully realized enough inner mind and soul that the key to unlocking something about the primary villain and force of evil in the world comes from, L, in essence, accessing Billy's humanity. That's a real leap for me.

Sure. As is just like the physical manifestation of that whole thing where she's like, I found it, I've washed up on the shore like Leonardo DiCaprio and Inception, and I'm going to walk down this beach until I get to the source of his pain. Yes. Which is why he was susceptible to being flayed in the first place? No. I mean, like he just got in a car accident.

I thought it was maybe setting up the opposite of that, which was that he would be primed for reembracing, for embracing his humanity. Well, they do mention briefly they're like, oh, maybe if we do this, like, I think there was like some, there's a brief moment where it seems like they could save the flayed people before I think they turn into blobs of goop. Right. Like, right. But when Nancy and Jonathan can now move on from murdering their boss because he became goop. Yes.

So that's okay. Right. But yeah, I mean, it ultimately does set up the moment in StarCourt at the end where Billy fights back, where he stands up against the mind fliers monster. and says, you know, no. And so in that sense, it is a key plot development, but I'm not sure that what the plot development hinges on is ripe enough for us to buy into. There are certain aspects of that whole sequence that I liked.

First of all, it was visually stunning. You talk about the fight in StarCourt? No, at the beach moment with Ellen and Billy's mind. Given the role that losing her mother has played in her life, finding that commonality between the two of them made sense. I also, you know, I want to, we'll talk about, running story in a moment, but there was a moment when she's doing that. That's very at Ray you on the beach to me. Yeah, yeah, but when she's doing that, speaking of a never-erning story.

When she's doing that, I was basically like, does she know the word for sandals? Because she seems to struggle with like basic conversational skills. And then she's like, your mom is beautiful. She had great sandals that day. Yeah. Great fit. Great fit on your mom. A beautiful long dress. I guess she's picking things up at the gap. We should probably get through a couple more of these things. Who is your big winner of the season? Neverending story is certainly a big winner What a look for Neverending Story Incredible moment with Dustin and Singing

The Neverending Story song The Neverending Story song to each other To ultimately get the numerical sequence The Plank The Constant That Hobber needs

I loved that I loved I went back and rewatch never-ending story after that. And I like when the references in Stranger Things feel like more than just decoration, you know, like more than just accessorizing and placing us in a moment in time. Though that is also fun. But what is the never-ending story really about? I mean, it's about the power of imagination, right?

And, you know, Fantasia can exist if you're willing to build it up in your mind. And I think that where this season ended, especially when you factor in the loss of, L's powers, which I'm, maybe we can quickly sidebar on that in 30 seconds after I finish this ineligent point. If the magic is receding, even for a minute, we're going to have to find a way to inject it into the story again. And the way to do that ultimately is to hold on to hope, you know, and to believe, and again, that gets back to, well, Hopper, right? And has he really gone? Can he come back? And maybe there's a... Or can she bring him back? Yeah, or can he come back? Is there a way that he, like Fantasia can exist just in her heart and

in her mind. Doesn't do a lot for Joyce, but that's okay. I'm glad that he exists in this 13-year-old's mind, but my bed is still empty. Elle's powers. I think that she's an X-Man. You know what I mean? Like, I think that they have basically set her up as Gene Gray.

And there's a couple of shots that are very comic book story frame, like that basically look like a comic drawing of her, like with her hands extended, and she's like just full of powers. Totally. And I thought it was cool how they showed that she was basically taking her powers for granted at a certain point by like closing her door with them or changing the, you know, spying on people or kind of messing around. I thought they could have made more of that of like is Max using Elle? Is Mike using Elle? Is there like, if you had a friend who had these powers, would you, how would you abuse them without even knowing it? Totally. Yeah, the ethics of Elle's powers is pretty fascinating. Right. And now that she's like back to being a teenager or a kid who can't reach.

everything yet. It was pretty cool, I thought. I thought they could have made more of that. Do you understand though? There's no rule to them. How they went away? She's like a telekinetic psychic who can travel through time and space if given a few pictures and a radio. I don't understand it. And I don't know why they went away either. Was it because of her confrontation with the demigorgan or the mindflare or whatever? Well, I think that that's logical to assume. However, you know, she's bitten in the cabin and then treated in the grocery store and then ultimately the invasive mini-Demigorgon, dog, mind flare, goop, blob comes out of her leg in the mall.

But the thing is, she uses her powers to remove that thing from her leg. Like, she does that magically. She pulls that out. So she's still, after the bite, she still has her powers because she uses her powers to remove that. And then after that, she doesn't have them anymore.

So, you know, she says to hopper, you know, I need to recharge. My battery's low. Right. But then she's still three months. Once later, in the flash forward, does not have her powers. So I think there's a question of is it psychosomatic, you know, the grief, the burden of always having to be the one. Does she have the yips?

Yeah. Seeing what happens to the people in her life who she loves, right? And what that would do to a person when you realize that, I would love for them to explore that. Or is it actual magic at play? Even though she removed that force from her leg, did the mind, Flaher's monster, leave something inside of her that sapped her powers? You know, that's an interesting question about season three also is, you know, we built this for you, right? To destroy her or to use her, to use her powers, to make her a tool? You know, that's in play.

And so if the mind-flare's monster in some way sapped Elle of her powers, then are they just cut off because the gate closed? Are they in the upside down? Are they waiting for her to access them again? These are all interesting questions to consider. again, will she need to try to find Brenner or somebody else to seek them out? I think that ultimately, we don't know, and I'm frustrated that we don't have more clarity on how this all worked. But it was, for two different reasons, I think, a narrative necessity. Yeah.

One, Hopper. If Elle has her powers at the moment of his death, she immediately tries to find him. Immediately. And then we know, and then there's no more mystery. Either he's gone because she can't find him. That's right. That's a really good point. Or he's there in some way and she can access him in the upside down.

And then I think the other thing is the master stroke of the show in some ways is also the thing that the show is always fighting against. Paring people who aren't magical with people who are. Right. It's not Hogwarts. Sure. It's if Hogwarts was also admitting squibs. And that would be really interesting. I also don't know what that means, so that's great.

Or muggles. You're probably more familiar with the muggle term. A squib is somebody from a magical family who doesn't have magical powers. Oh, that sucks for them. It's very tough. It's very tough. Filch is a squib. and he is at Hogwarts.

That's like being with the one ball brother who's not going to get drafted or whatever. Incredible, except you don't have your own merch. Yeah, that's true. You don't have a big baller brand to fall back on. Other people had to be able to act. Other people had to be able to, you know, Lucas and Co.

Had to use their fireworks, right? Hopper and Joyce have to have, there has to be a reason that they are the ones who are down there instead of 11. There just has to be. Otherwise, we don't get the moment that we get. But that ultimately is like a challenge for the show. if L is the super weapon, what role is anybody else playing?

And then that gets back to your kind of macro, big picture point about how do interweave and connect the human exploration with the fantasy exploration? Yeah, absolutely. I just think that they, the next year or next season will inevitably have a lot to do with like Cold War Russia stuff and super weapons. And I'm just way more interested in like, what are these kids like in high school?

Totally. I would say my big winner for the season is Steve. I know he doesn't have the most screen time. I think he's probably like the best actor of the bunch, even if he's really good at one pitch. It's a great pitch. It's the Mariano Cutter. Yeah, it's definitely is.

His charisma and his relationship with Robin, I thought was great. I thought those guys just had like, the stuff it scoops a hoy was really, really, really delightful to me. The way that he holsters his scooper, like it's a pisser. I'm a scoper man. Yeah. Fabulous. Just great combination of like Ferris Bueller. And I loved his interview at the video store at the end.

Oh, tremendous. What are your three favorite movies? It was like, Animal House. Got to be on there. Star Wars with the Teddy Bears and Fast Times. Yeah. Yeah, he's tremendous. He's one of my picks for winner as well.

And then, you know, David Hartburn and Hopper is certainly a pick for winner. Did you have a big loser? I got to go Will Byers. Yeah. For as much as like I'm not trying to dunk on Noah. He just like did He's really literally at one point I was like this is the fifth time in three episodes

that he's like felt the back of his neck He's here All right Yeah it's got to be well I just I really Really want More for him And he's the biggest victim of there being

This many more characters now I think that Yeah They just decided like we don't really feel like Spending a ton of time with this kid So we're just going to have him be The Odd Man Out who then is the first alarm.

Right. But he doesn't do anything. He's the character who got sidelined where it felt like there were consequences and stakes to that. Like I really enjoy Lucas. But if we get less Lucas, that's okay because ultimately Lucas's role in the story is more about challenging the other guys

and Max in this case, landing a timely joke, you know, or a timely question. He didn't have, he wasn't the host. You know, Will was. Will was the host, and also the buyer's family is the center of the show in a lot of ways, you know, given the roles that Joyce and Jonathan play. But Jonathan, I feel like-

They're the connective tissue to everybody else. If Jonathan is just Steve, then you have, like, way more equilibrium to the series. Well, that is also part of the shift back to Hopper, where he became the center, really, this season. Because he has the connection to L. He has the connection to Mike. He has the connection to Joyce. He has the connection to the Russians. He has the connection to the government.

All of it. And will you forgive me, Chris, for making just one more Harry Potter comparison? Knock yourself out. I couldn't help but compare. This is a 15-year-old Harry Potter spoiler for anyone out there. Guard your ears accordingly. Watch out, Kyle. The Hopper L. loss sequence and grief sequence really reminded me of Harry in Syria.

at the end of Order of the Phoenix, like a lot. Yeah. You finally have family again. You finally have this person who you can unlock your heart with, and it is ripped away from you. And it goes both ways, you know, with Elle and Harry grappling with having to lose that, and then Hopper and Sirius embracing that part of their life again,

or a new, I guess, in Sirius' case. And the thing about, you won't know this because you haven't read Order of the Phoenix, but one of the most absolutely heart-wrenching sequences in the entire Harry Potter saga is there are a couple moments that when Harry thinks he can find him again. Oh, yeah. You know, he thinks, he finds this shard of mirror

that Sirius was going to use to communicate with him and he thinks if he had his mirror on him when he fell beyond the veil, I will be able to talk to him and it doesn't work. And then he walks, he sees a ghost, and he remembers that wizards can become ghosts. And he goes and he finds a ghost and asks him if Sirius will come back.

And that's like, I think, analogous to maybe Hopper could come back in some other form. And nearly headless snake the ghost that he's talking to says he will have gone on. And it's just like devastating. Because he's like you can't find him. Well, it's just, it's like a wave. Like the, you know, it's 11 on the beach. And the wave of grief is just beating against you. And every time it recedes and you find a little bit of relief, you're just forced to confront it again.

And so I hope that if Hopper is gone, as much as I want all of these kids to thrive and go on with their lives, I really hope that we see Elle and Joyce, too. contend with that? Like, what did that loss mean for them? I just don't think they're going on their lives. I like, I really... You think he's back episode one?

Oh, I think it's like... I think it's end of episode one. Do you really? You don't think there's a chance that even if he ultimately, if the plan is ultimately to bring him back, that they'll bench him for the bulk of the season. No, I think that they'll probably... What if it's more of a Gandalf the gray and a Gandalf the white kind of situation? Could be. Like, he comes back and he has like amnesia or something, I guess.

Like, I don't know. Just that he has to be. be sidelined for a little while to let the other people kind of find their way and that when he comes back, it's with some sort of new intention and purpose and ability even potentially? Yeah, I mean, I think that a lot of the different scenarios you've thrown out there. I guess we're talking about what could happen in season four now. We can wrap up here. This is basically this idea that you can't really do time travel with this cast because

unless you use old footage, it's not like you can just sort of rerun it as this is like, they look so different now from when they were in first season. which is the second season. Yeah. You just can't really do that. Yeah. I think it would be interesting if, like, Hopper has access to this gate and this dimension, like, does he want to go back to when his daughter was alive?

Does he want to go back to when he had a happy family? Does he want to go back to the beginning of Hawkins when everything is sort of normal? Does he want to just go back to having Ellen Joyce in his life? See, that's really interesting. I hadn't thought about it from the perspective of him being the one in control of that. Right. I'd been thinking about L. That's a really interesting thing to think of that.

Because then it's like Barry Allen flashpoint territory. I also think that season four could maybe not take place in Hawkins. Because Mike is supposed to go visit for Thanksgiving, which I think would make sense for the next season. I don't know how fast they'll do it. Presumably they would do it if it's along the same schedule. It's been a year and a half since the last one, I think, right? Two years since the last one?

In real time? Yeah. 2017 was season two, I think. Yeah, I can't remember. Yeah. I think it's been a long time. Yeah. It has definitely been a long time.

So they could do 86, they could do 88, but I would imagine it would be something where, I mean, if they were to do it next year, they could do it as Mike goes to visit Ellen Hawkins. Or outside of Hawkins. Oh. For Thanksgiving. They could do something where that's happening. But where do we think the buyer's family went? Do you think Joyce went to Maine? I think she went to some larger.

That's a great question. Bob was trying to convince her in season two to move to me. Maine with him. So I wonder if she's going to Maine. I think that would be a little, I think it's like Chicago. I don't see Joyce in a city. Maybe though. Pittsburgh. Oh my God. Baltimore. Baltimore, where she meets a young Valerie Rubin. Any closing thoughts? I really enjoy the season. I think that this always happens where like when you do a show and you're like, you wind up nitpicking a little bit more than like, I think I really, really enjoy the show a lot. I love this show. It's not, it's not, I'm not trying to knock it. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't,

always hold up to scrutiny. Yeah, to prolonged deliberate interrogation. Unlike the Scoops-A-Hoy uniform, which literally survived a Russian interrogation. It's going to be a big Halloween costume, I think,

is the Scoops-A-Hoy uniform. The seams can come apart a little more easily here. I guess that even though I tend to say often, here's the checklist of the things I need in a a fantasy story to buy in fully.

With stranger things I find that when I watch it, I just don't care. Like, I love it so much, and I find the characters to be so winning and charismatic and to just, like, feel like people who I am fully invested in and care about. Like, the Hopper Death, even though I have this laundry list of reasons where I think it might not be true or might not hold up. Yeah. I can only think of, like, a handful of other character deaths that hit me that hard, which is, a sincere achievement.

It really is. It was really well handled. But to me, like, the first shot of the first episode right after the credit sequence where it's like directed, right in director by the Duffer Brothers and it's StarCourt

and Mike rides up on his bike and like the synth music is playing and they're like, you're late and they sneak into Dave the Dead. Yeah. I was like, I'll just fucking watch this for whatever, however long it's on. I don't know.

It's just like he's just right in my wheelhouse. Jazzercise at the mall. You're always talking about how you love Jazzercise. I love them when they're They were cracking the code all the stores they were seeing. Mal, thank you so much for joining me today. Thanks, Chris.

Thanks for watching Stranger Things. We'll be doing a video kind of breaking down our favorite things from this season. That'll probably be going up like on Wednesday or Thursday with Jason Concepcion. I cannot wait to be back on the beach of the soul with you. You don't know what you'll find there. Thanks, Mal. Today's episode of The Watch was brought to you by the Showtime Limited Series, The Loudest Voice, starring Russell Crow as Roger Ailes, the mastermind founder of Fox News

from the producers of Whiplash, Get Out and Black Klansmen comes the inside story of a media powerhouse who was brought down by allegations of years of sexual harassment and abuse. The loudest voice is now streaming only on Showtime. Go to Showtime.com and start your free trial now.