The Watch - ‘Stranger Things’ Season 5 Is Finally Here. Was It Worth the Wait? Plus, ‘Landman’ S2E3.

Episode Date: December 1, 2025

Chris is joined by Mallory Rubin to talk about the premiere of the first four episodes of ‘Stranger Things’ Season 5 and how the trajectory of the show has changed so drastically over the years (2:00). Later, they discuss ‘Landman’ S2E3 and whether it’s the most entertaining show on television (59:26). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Host: Chris Ryan Guest: Mallory Rubin Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Additional Video Supervision: Donald LoBianco Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. And I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio, my sorcerer, it's Valerie Rubin. I thought for sure you'd open with a landman reference. I really don't think that would be appropriate now. Thank you so much for joining me in the studio today. No Andy today, but we are going to be talking stranger things. We are going to be talking our beloved landman.

It's so great to see you. I know that you guys always are really good about housekeeping on House of Arr where we can find you. I will just say that you can email the watch at the watch at Spotify.com and you can watch us on the ringer dash TV YouTube channel or on Spotify. I hope you're listening to us and please follow us and DM us at the watch pod underscore Instagram. I'm an admirer of the Instagram. Thanks.

As you know, I'm a longtime fan and admirer of the pod. Yes. I think Andy's really working the refs on the Instagram stuff. We don't have to get into it. Interesting. Yeah. I think he's just setting himself up for a lot of success. Okay.

Do you think he understands the algorithm better than you do? He might, I think he has a much more, um, a sublime experience on Instagram. I think he doesn't get tempted by Ponzi schemes. Unlike you. Yeah, life extension techniques. Sure. Sure.

Dead weight. Do you want to live forever? No. Yeah. I don't, you've never struck me as somebody who would be like, tempted by immortality. Do you? No, not particularly.

I have recently been thinking about like how much longer do I have though. I'm thinking a lot about, about how much time is left to read books and watch new shows versus rereading books I love and re-watching shows I love, et cetera. I think to myself, how many more times do I have to text my good friend Chris Ryan on Saturday afternoon and say X number of hours and X number of minutes left until Landman? It's funny that this is, I brought you on specifically because I wanted to talk about stranger things with somebody, but I can tell.

I've never seen someone more excited to talk about Alley Larder giving roadhead than you. It's why I'm here. It's why I'm here. Even though Joanna and I over on House of R have spent months revisiting Stranger Things, we have done a deep dive into

the first two episodes of season five they're available for you to listen to now. We'll be deep diving into episodes three and four tomorrow. And I apologize to Joe if I'm about to get dibs on any of your early takes here. The reason I mentioned that is

in addition to, you know, I hope everyone checks out those episodes, is because I have to be honest when you texted me yesterday and said, would you join me for the watch? You thought it was going to be Lamb Man. It didn't occur to me that I was talking about stranger things, even though obviously that's like a zeitgeist animating,

rare bit of monoculture. And of course that's what you wanted to talk about. I just assumed it was exclusively to catch up a Landman. And he just is like very good about being like, I'm just not current with that show. And I kept being like, maybe your daughters will like to watch it. Sure. He's like, maybe they won't.

Yeah. Okay. Well, everyone's missing out. Yes. Everyone's missing out. Not us, though. Not a lot of people missed out because it was a huge thing. I think when I wanted to start here,

which was that, you know, you made the joke kind of about it being a monoculture experience. It's something that we eulogize a lot on this show. I know that you guys talk about it a lot in your shows. The idea that basically, like, everybody will participate in the same thing in the same weekend. And then there would be like a kind of shared conversation. A lot of that stuff happens online.

It happens in a very jagged kind of pockets of fandom, pockets of anti-fandom way. So it's kind of hard to ever feel like you're back in the glory days of being like, what about this? John Snow kid. I think he's got something to him. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Kind of the Max Bozmer of Westrose.

Is that so? No. Tough com. Yeah. But, you know, I was watching this stranger things this weekend. So here's what happened. I went up to Portland for Thanksgiving. How's the foliage? Gorgeous up there. And I was staying with my, my wife

and I stayed with her best friend and her family. She has three daughters. And we walked in and I mentioned that, I think it was on Wednesday. I was like, oh, and you know, you know what happens tonight? Yeah, Volume 1. Stranger Things comes out at like five. And they were like, they were so laser focused as soon as I said that.

Yeah. That they were just like, what time can we start stranger things? What time can we start stranger things? But does this imply that you broke the news to them? Yes. I think it's like indicated, it's indicative of the like, the, both the passion with which like they think about the show, but also like most people in the world are not looking at a count. down clock for when it goes up, I think. Right. And this is one of the things, of course, about like airing your show in a non-weekly capacity. You don't have that we're looking forward to gathering.

Yeah, Thursday at 8 or Sunday 6 or whatever. But even with this. Eight episodes with a three-volume drop is as close to weekly as we're going to get, though all three of these drops are, of course, over the holidays. Which I wanted to ask you if you thought that dampened the sense, actually, of a shared conversation simply because on the one hand it's like more opportunity to immediately binge four and a half hours. Stranger Things for Volume 1 because you don't have to go to work the next day. Amazing. Is everybody doing that on day one when they have a pie to eat and some football to watch

and a weird uncle to engage at the table? Weird Uncle was the lost sixth episode of this drop. Lost sister, weird uncle. Spoilers today, right? Yeah, spoilers for these first four episodes of season five. I will say that, like, it felt, it felt fun. And I think actually the kind of almost the, like, it being a stranger things vacation, which is kind of now how I look at it,

really dulled whatever critiques I had of the show. Do you know what I mean? Because it's just so fun. Yeah, but like I got the experience of watching it with a 10-year-old who's like stopping every five minutes to be like, is Steve going to be okay? And then a 15-year-old. who's like, so they have offices in the upside down now?

They built a whole base. Yeah. Dr. K had that base up in a hurry. And yeah. So it was fun to like engage with their brains about it. That's awesome. And it was fun. Like every time we would stop, like the younger one would be like, Chris, we could have started again.

So did you end up binging them all in a row? No, we watched them over two days. Okay. Okay. One Wednesday night and then the other three on Thursday day, I think. Okay. Or something like that. And we finished it Thanksgiving night.

And I had a lot of fun. Yeah, that's great. It's, look, we can get into it. The four episodes that dropped over Thanksgiving weekend were the crawl, The Vanishing of Halley Wheeler, the Turnbow Trap and Sorcerer. Sorcerer will be the big one everybody's talking about, I think. And these episodes were largely directed by the Duffer Brothers,

except for one, the Turnbow Trap was directed by Frank Derrbond. Which is pretty crazy. Coming out of retirement. It's amazing. The Missed Walking Dead Frank Derrador. It picks up a year and a half. That's right. After season four, which involved Russia, Kate Bush, and a demon named Vecna, and, well, he has many names.

You're going to go with Vecna, you're going to go with one. You're going to go with Henry. Of course, this has become a running joke on the show, too many names. I think we could add more, you know. What do you want to throw out there? Well, Mr. What's-It is now another one that he's grabbed. Are you a big wrinkle in Timehead? No, is that Mr. What's-it guy?

Mrs. What's it is a Rinkle in Time character and Holly Wheeler has been holding a copy of A Rinkle in Time throughout these episodes. She talks about Camazots with Max. Again, full spoilers. Max is here in the Mind Palace. So Camazots is a realm from A Rinkle in Time. So they're doing a lot.

I mean, Stranger Things is always not just engaged with, but actively courted, owned, worn on its sleeves. It's pop culture references. For sure. I think there are, even by the standards of Stranger Things,

a number of really overt ones in these four episodes of season five. I think that the Harry Potter comps are inescapable. To me, they have been since season two, but they're just so present here with Will and Vecna in a way that I don't know if you have any interest in discussing with me, but I will be getting into that on House of Arr. But Rinkle in Time is one that they're really putting out there and inviting us to think about one of the subsequent episodes,

not in this drop, is named after a Rinkle. and time reference. So that's on my mind. I've been revisiting the text, which I had completely basically forgotten every detail about. Just thinking about the words you just said. Tell me. Yeah.

Which of the words? If I took you, if I showed you a video of this podcast. Yeah. Yeah. To you and me in 2016 when this show came out. Yeah. Would you be like, what the fuck are they talking about? Like that's not what this show is about.

No, I would have thought, okay, on the one hand, in terms of the substance of the conversation, I would have said this feels exactly right. I think the only surprise would have been... These guys look even better. Yeah, that's... They've gotten even sharper.

That's what I would have said. The kids are all four feet taller. And then we have a lot more, like, gray hair in one of our cases and just less hair in the other case. Because a decade has passed. This is actually... I had a lot of fun with the first volume of season five. I've really been anticipating.

I love the show. I kind of can't believe how much time has passed. And so one of the things that's been enjoyable for me, about just stranger things returning in general and spending a lot of time revisiting the show, but also thinking about the conclusion of this great shared experience is actually like kind of plotting it

against the lifespan of the Ringer. So one of the things you're saying like back in 2016, the season one barb blog that you wrote on TheRringer.com which people can Google on Fide right now is one of my favorite weird bits of like Ringer lore in a moment in Ringer history where everybody in the newsroom

was talking about Barb. Everybody in Slack was talking about Barb, and you were like, I've got a blog and just basically, like, wrote a reported story from the newsroom about the Barb debate.

And then I was thinking about season three, which we actually covered together. We potted about season three. Just like seeing Infinity War together. Clearly, you don't remember this at all. Did we do it on a separate feed? Were we doing it on the watch? No, I think we did it on the watch,

and we did it at the chapel, at the old sunset Gower offices in person. And the thing that I have like a great affection and fondness for season three. You don't remember this at all. I mean, I love this dark word stuff, yeah. The mall, yeah. And so like talking with you not only about a new season of Stranger Things, but about like being a young person at the mall

and what that did for your first taste of independence. Like there's been something like that in every season, you know, going to the pool or what's your equivalent of playing D&D in the basement with your friends. Yeah. And I just like, I'm, I'm, I've always liked and been intrigued by the mythology and the lore of stranger things, but to me it has always been just a great, great, great coming-of-age story and story about a bunch of nerds who felt like outsiders finding their confidence

through their friendship with each other. Yes. It's like a beautiful show in that respect. It's basically, it's gone from, I think, when I was initially sort of enamored with it in that first two seasons, it was because it was obviously playing a lot of hits for me. Not only in terms of its explicit references, but I thought that they did a really good job

of capturing a anonymous Midwestern suburb 80s vibe. And the idea of riding bikes, really the keyhole, the latchkey kids of parents that are distracted or parents that are working too hard. The parents never have any idea where the kids are. Never have any idea. Except for Joyce. And it's the days before, you know,

they expand the cast massively and there's all this kind of almost science fiction and fantasy involved, pulling the kids into these big kind of complicated adventures. And so I just really enjoyed it as like a hangout show. I like the music. I liked the kids had a lot of charm. I mean, these things basically live or die based on the casting. And they really did a great job.

I mean, regardless of like, Bobby Brown doesn't really talk that much in the first couple of seasons of the show, but is quite effective in wolf. Hard's obviously got a lot of talent. Like there's a lot going on with this cast. Yeah. I think that I am obviously seeing it through and I enjoyed watching season five, but it really struck me how much the last two seasons in particular,

but this one specifically has become task-oriented. And it is characters talking about, they spend 90% of their time describing an obstacle, scheming a way to get around it, And then an extensive set piece executing that plan. And you could say that's most storytelling. You know, that could be Ozark as well. Like, I found they were very, very, very kind of almost trapped in.

What is the next thing that we have to do? You guys have to run over here while we run over there. And then we'll meet in the middle. But of course, we're going to get distracted along the way. That's really like what the show is about now. And obviously, the duffers have gone all in on, on the, mythology and the logic and the reasoning behind the upside down and behind like Vecna and what the Hawkins Lab was really doing and what like is there a black hole in

Hawkins or something like that. I think all that's kind of fun and cool and especially if you're watching it in this kind of eventized way. You forget about how long it is. You forget about like whether the CGI is always perfect or whatever and whether or not like despite all these rules like a Kate Bush song can break through time and space to bring someone out of it. But I can't help it kind of be charmed by like whatever remnants there are of the 80s references. Yeah. And just the people generally cast on the show. I really agree.

I think that like my one note on season five, volume one. A note in terms of a critique or just a note? Something that I was like, huh. when I watched it for the first time. But I will say on a subsequent watch through the episodes, I felt this way less. To your point about how task-oriented it is, I think like every season,

if you actually just broke down the core propulsive engine of each season and what each character is doing and focused on and what the mission is, they're all pretty contained to a certain period of time. There is like an objective inside each of them. We are like on a journey, right? these four episodes felt one degree to like we're in an action movie

and just missing a little bit of the like slower, quieter moments that I really cherish inside of Stranger Things stretch. Now that makes sense to me because it is actually genuinely the end game. Like it is the final season. We only have eight episodes, albeit far more hours than that, left to get to our conclusion. I think there are a couple exacerbating elements. I think eight. I thought we had like three or four at Christmas.

There are eight total in the season. So it's four in this first drop. Three in the second and then the family. I think like the fact that we are operating, even by the standards of a stranger thing season on a really tight clock, heightens that. So this season, obviously, we're getting some flashbacks. We're moving throughout time. We're moving throughout Vecta's Memory Palace, etc. we start on November 3rd. We're marching clearly toward this anniversary, November 6th. The day that Will was taken in the Upside Down in Season 1, that is the date. We learned in season 4 that the upside down is frozen in time on that date because Nancy, when they went back to the Wheeler's house in her room and looked at her diary,

it's like the upside down is frozen in time. When Max is taking us and Holly through the memories, through Henry's memories, and we see young Joyce, the kids in high school. Hoppers in it too, right? Well, and we see Steve's dad. And then Yel Joyce is in the stage play. Like, I know that there's some connection there, right? The play, Oklahoma, and it has the same date, November 6th.

This key date that everything is orienting around, obviously crucial. But more germainly in terms of just like how did these episodes feel, if the entire season potentially takes place inside of three days, it's going to just have this really like we are definitionally on the clock feeling. And I think the last thing is just like the characters are all, all been working as a team throughout the entire series, but they're, like, all in the same place now. They're trapped inside Hawkins.

They're in this quarantine zone. They can't get out. And so they're like, it's just a little bit less of the separate groups and separate places, which, like, to be clear, I think it's not always worked well for the show. When 11 was off on her own in season two, the fuck, the balls of bringing eight back this season is like astonishing to me. I kind of can't believe they did it, but I can.

I respect it. Me too, actually. But, you know, like the, the California crew in season four, you know, Mike and Jonathan and. Will and Argyle being separate L and then going to Nevada, et cetera. Like that hasn't always been to the show's benefit, but I think when everybody is like, is your telemetry tag, like, within the right distance, we're that close together, there are fewer moments where it feels like we're pausing.

When we do pause and you have like Mike talking to Holly about Holly the heroic or the conversations to see in Robin and Will about like identity and embracing who you are, those are just such lovely moments to me. And I'm like, really. excited to see how they find room to incorporate those moments in the final four episodes while we are so on the clock. Yeah, I mean, let's say this wasn't the final season. Yeah. Or let's say this had been more of a, it might be the final season or after this, like everything is going to be different. Maybe there's different cast or whatever like that. The most compelling aspect of this season to me is definitely

in the first five minutes when Maya Hawk is doing this really delightful DJ exposition. dump. And so the setup for the season is essentially that after the events of four, which I have to admit, I have not rewatched for Russia running up the hill. I do remember it, but the actual, like, what happens

at the end, Hawkins gets split in half. Vecna has opened his four gates, the earthquake, the veins, like, burst through town, the town explodes, etc. As Robin gets into, in her new job as a DJ, she has been an ice cream scooper. Yeah. And then...

Family video. Family video. Yeah, they worked at Scoops of Hoy in season three, family video in season four. Her career trajectory really mirrors mine. Interesting. When will she be working at a comic shop? And when will she become a expert blogger?

Record store. Expert blogger. Maybe she could invent the internet and just... I could see that. Yeah. I could see that. Well, she would be a great podcaster. Well...

No question. The early parts of the first episode are the most interesting thing to me where it's like... I love the first episode. First of all, it's a, I don't know if it's, I imagine it's intentional. There is, this show is made over the last couple of years. It went through COVID shutdowns and strikes. So there's been a lot of like kind of stops and starts to the actual series itself.

But you don't have to be a brain genius to see the correlation between a bunch of people living in quarantine and wondering whether or not they have a lab leak situation on their hands is sort of like relevant to our reality. But beyond that, I think it just would have been fascinating to have a bunch of different characters who are like maybe having different reactions about being trapped in the same town they've always lived in or being trapped in with each other. What kind of jobs? How does the economy work?

How does policing and all this stuff in the town work? And instead, they've kind of settled on these are the Ghostbusters. And they're just always on alert to go to war with a demon and a parallel dimension. rather than, man, am I ever going to get out of this town? Or kind of like some of the more universal themes

that I think the show did much better in the first three but most of the first two seasons? I'm anticipating that that element returns to the four in the back half of the season. I see, I don't know. Like, are they ever going to stop having every episode has like a massive throwdown? I think, I don't know.

I think one of the things, Stranger Things has always done really well is like balance those elements. You know, season three is, I think, in some ways the least consequential season in terms of advancing the mythology. That was like the season of the flayed. But it's one of my favorite seasons,

not only because I covered it with you, even though you don't remember. I do remember. Because of the pool, young Billy, man. Yeah, young, poof, Billy. But, like, because of that blend, you know, you have Robin and Steve

and Dustin and Erica trapped in an elevator down to a secret base trying to work their way out. That is very action-oriented, lot oriented. But the bonding and the conversations that happen in those sequences is like incredible. You build towards something like after Robin and Steve had been tortured by Russian doctors and scientists, that like incredible conversation that they have while still high on the floor of the bathroom sneaking in and out of Back to the Future. Like I think the show is expert actually typically at maintaining that balance. So something like, okay, Nancy and Jonathan in season four.

Great fall t-shirt on Jonathan. Jonathan is crushing it on the fashion front. Well, I'm not. Team Steve always. Joanna noted in our first house of our deep dive that the Jonathan Cardigan this season is really worth toasting and admiring. Nancy and Jonathan in season four were like

kind of experiencing a little bit of a rupture on their relationship, the idea of where they would go to college, who was going to end up presenting whom. They had sort of worked themselves into the same point that they initially bonded over out in season one, on the shooting range, like, we don't want to end up like our parents. Sure. Now, they're trapped, like you said, by the necessities and the realities of this quarantine

in Hawkins. And so that conversation is on hold. To me, it doesn't make sense to end the show, though, without those issues coming back to the four. I find the, like, dick measuring contest between Steve and Jonathan for Nancy's affections and Robbins' reaction to it in particular, really amusing and very compelling. That's not the same thing as those characters actually confronting the question of, like, does their life make sense to live together?

Sure. I think the best example of what I would anticipate being a slight shift in like energy pace and focus in the back half of the season, which should be clear, no one alive has seen and certainly we have not seen. So I have no idea. Yes. Steve and Dustin. Finding to your point about like should the characters be having a different response to like what has been going on, I think they are having that as just a little subtler. Yeah. So like Dustin going into school and his Hellfire T-shirt at the beginning of this season. because he insists on honoring Eddie and remembering Eddie and like what Hellfire meant to him and basically saying to Mike and Will and Lucas

like Will was of course not a part of Hellfire because he was in California but like guys what the fuck like why aren't you doing this too that's the whole thing the party stays together he at least is going through like there's a couple of characters who are going through arcs like Dustin is obviously going through something where he's found like a couple of people that he, like, has located in the world that he's like, this person got me or I got this person, you know? And that, that is like, I appreciate the fact that a couple of the characters seem to have gone through, like, arcs. Yeah. There are some who are like, I don't know

whether they were going to just kill Steve in the second season or something. And they were like, first season. Yeah, he's just too adorable. Yeah, he's the best. We got to keep him around for 10 years. So he's just like kind of like a mascot now at this point. Like, he's just like, he's just like, he is very, like, lovable, but, like, is never really, like, has not changed much over the course of, I know you can say, like, he, you know, it doesn't want to be his dad or whatever, like. But wouldn't you say that his, however, like, consistent Steve himself is, I think he has experienced positive change as a result of being friends with people that previously, like, the clicks of high school would not have allowed him to engage with, right? But I think, like, something like the relationship between Steve and Dustin is my favorite example in the history of the show. And then you add, like, Robin to it, Eric, et cetera. of just the show's capacity to surprise us with the alchemy of these pairings and to have the characters really authentically experience that surprise too. So, like, Dustin's in a place of grief and resentment.

That makes sense to me. He's not necessarily, like, able to express that. Sure. That also makes sense to me. Steve and Dustin fighting, but not talking about why they're fighting. I find very sad to watch in a way that feels like, true to life, but not something I want to see for like eight episodes. So by episode like six or seven, I need those two to have a real heart to heart about what is

going on, which is obvious to us as viewers, but they have not been able to like completely unlock with each other. And I just believe that the show will make space for that. Well, here's a, I guess this is a good way of putting it. And I'm not going to get into spoilers for Landman. But when I was watching Landman this weekend, I was like, the reason why Landman always feels so weird to be watching is because so much of the television that I watch is on a runaway train track

towards the ending immediately. It's just like, watch Beast and me and you're like, when is she going to find out what the truth is and what is he going to do if she finds out? You know, like, you know, you just are going on this like speeding bullet towards the end. And yeah, you get distracted

by side characters or whatever, or new twists, but that's like kind of where the is going. Most shows now are programmed to do that. Landman is like now here's 10 minutes about these guys coughing. You know, it's like it'll just come up with rent.

And I was watching it this weekend and I was like, oh right, because that's how you make five to seven seasons of a TV show. Landman could go on forever. Right. Exactly. Like they have no pretense. It's half a sitcom, half a workplace drama and half an action show. So when you're watching strangers,

things, you can see if they were just like, look, we've got solid gold here. And all we have to do is we can have 45 minutes of something like that's basically these people having like a little like kind of mini crisis drama or like adventure over the course of an episode, but really having a lot of fun. And then as long as something spooky happens at the end, they've changed the dynamic of that. They've made this into much more of an action sci-fi show and all the characters need to be in service of that. And I think, sadly, when you've got people who are,

talented as honestly, Maya Hawk and Sadie Sink are, and I love, like, a bunch of the performers on this, but, like, Sadie Sink, in this batch of episodes, I would say is largely wasted, where she has to explain to Holly Wheeler and the audience what the fuck is going on. And even in her

very nicely rendered explanation, it is still, like, we say the words mind palace, like, as if that's a thing. Yeah, sure. Mind palaces are what we say to explain when show creators and film directors decide it's just happening in this guy's brain and he can go into like all these different worlds and all these different rooms.

Sure. Yeah. Mind palaces are kind of hard to visualize. Totally. But do you have more specifically in these episodes, but also I guess generally in a show like Stranger Things, do you have more room for that in your heart because that is like core of the concept, right? Yeah.

So like, you know, 11. powers, Vecna's powers, their psychic powers. Like when Max, it's like the never-ending story. It's like these, the person reading the book has joined the story. Yeah, another touchstone as the reference in the in the universe, of course. And like, you know, obviously something like the Cape Bush running up that hell has become so iconic and inextricable from the show. And like, what was that used for? It was the, on the Pottercom front, like the patroness to pull Max out of Vecna's mind palace, this other realm that she had. infiltrated, and obviously that's very core to the text of season five so far with like Will and the

hive mind connection and the demigorgon cam and seeing through Vecta's eyes and this idea of like have you penetrated deeper than somebody else knew you would or meant you to? And like, I do think it's interesting. I'm so curious to see like what they land and how effectively they land some of the mythology stuff. But for a show that really oriented initially in its early years, around the upside down and the right side up. You have Hawkins and you have the upside down. We have like the fabled Mr. Clark explanation of the flea and the acrobat

to help us understand this from the jump. And like we have, we're operating ultimately in the endgame here and dimensions outside of that. You know, this like memory escape is a different, obviously related, but like a different thing. Right. The visual distinctions of the place that L cast Vecna into in season four in the 79

Maskard Hawkins Lab flashback, etc. We're not ultimately just in this upside down, right side up place, though of course the finale is called the right side up. So I just think that's interesting. The return of eight is also kind of like emblematic, I think,

in that sense, because that was, I think, unequivably, and I think it's not a controversial statement to say that's one of the great failures of the show so far to date in season two. To do that episode? In season two, just it didn't work. Like that stand, I don't think, that standalone episode with L and 8 and just the, at that moment and time attempt to widen the mythology.

But in season four saying, okay, that didn't land, but that doesn't mean we're not going to do it. We have something we want to explore here with the other kids. Now, Henry's one, who are all these other kids? And I thought that in season four, the stuff at the lab, the flashbacks, like L having to kind of unearth these repressed memories of what happened at the lab with all these other kids. You have two as a little mini villain, et cetera. Can I ask you just a procedural question? Sure. There's 11.

Elle was the last one? Of the kids? Yeah, of the kids in the initial lab thing. Was it, was L? I don't, I mean, I think that what happens in the massacre in 79. Was there more than like 11 kids there? I'm asking because he's got. 12 gates that he's trying,

or he's got the 12. He does. He's looking for his 12 disciples. And I just didn't know if there were 12 or 13 or whatever it is like in the initial lab. Like is he trying to replace the ones that he killed? I don't know that we ever have gotten definitive like without question. Brenner had created in his program this many kids.

I think like after what happened with the massacre, it's obviously from what we know and understand the kind of reoriented around 11 specifically as like a focus of his training because all those other kids are dead. What are you most interested in at this point? Do you care about all of the Vecna and upside down centric mythology or are you like, I'm here for

the super eight flashbacks to Will and Mike and Joyce and Will and Jonathan and Will in those relationships? Or is it a mix? I think I'm actually, there's a third thing that I'm interested in, which is the, like they're sort of

flirtation with like what did the government have to do with this. And not like, I don't mean that. I don't mean that. I've been listening to too many podcasts.

I just think I think Linda Hamilton's cool. Obviously she's getting used to being in stranger things to some extent. But I'm curious about the idea that, of like what is the, this Hawkins lab?

And what is, like how does the government like take over a town and it's not like on CNN you know what I mean or like is there any attention being paid is the president evolved I am curious about that stuff

but yeah like I think my concerns are a little bit more terrestrial I feel like Vecna's taken a couple else over the last couple of seasons and he seems beatable on a neutral field he definitely seems beatable no question did you like that he you know he bulked up it's bulking season for Vecna

he came out you know the Duffer have said, yeah, this is like a Vader and Rogue One kind of entrance. Oh, at the end of the sorcerer. He's got the kind of like spiky, grout tree shoulder pads. There's also very hard home. Well, I mean, he literally did the hard home, like Night King raising his army. No question. And I think a very thronesy in a few episodes in general, because obviously the wall in the upside down,

you know, we learned it as a circle thanks to Dustin's, math. Steve was like, we don't need to see her work. I'm like, I would love to understand this better. I was never much of a math kid, honestly. You know, the, the, the, the rock face that Max and Holly are in that Henry is afraid to go into, go into, obviously a key moment in his past being alluded to there. Also, just like a wall, like neither of these walls are made of ice, but they're very thrown. And then you had, yeah, the overt hard home reference. So that's very fun. I'm like definitely interested in all of it. I think the weird, to me, the military stuff and the government involvement.

I think when you go back to like the Hawkins Lab and Brenner, Papa and all that, that's super interesting to me. But when they've kind of like just sort of kept it going even though there's not really a lodger. The Sullivan crew in season four and now the Kaye Sullivan. He's still in it. He's the lieutenant colonel who's now Kay is, we're like, oh, he has a boss, right? That's been the least effective aspect of these past two seasons to me. I think conceptually it's really interesting, the idea that like it shows.

should be this battle of good versus evil. And like, can we preserve our, not just town, but reality? Yeah. And instead, there are people in the military or government around you who are like, actually are you the problem? I think conceptually that's really interesting. And the idea that then you have this other human obstacle, also very interesting and very like kind of like last of us to me that the people end up

being, you know, a real consistent threat and foe. I like that idea. I just don't. And I was like, damn, they put up a base in the upside down with a quickness. And they do not seem nearly concerned enough about inhaling these particles. There's a work from anywhere option there. What do you think the deal is? Do they have distributed seating?

Is there like a cafeteria? Do you take your meals in the right side up? Great question. How does the temperate? You know, we're very, we text pretty often about like what's the temperature at the office. Very temperature sensitive, I'd say. given that the wall vine that chokes hop, you know, we learn from Kay, like, and obviously fire has been a big part of controlling and sending pain waves through the hive mine. The impact of the heat, the impact of the cold, is that bleeding into the rest of the workspace?

Like that scientist who Ellen Hop accosted and then Hop basically propped up as like a shadow dummy in the closet and that guy just got annihilated by a spray of bullets, tough day at work for him. Yeah, I was kind of going to ask you, like there is a degree of like 80s actually. movie, like people just getting shredded by M16s in this season that I was like, I wonder if kids are like, because the kids I was with were like, huh, they just killed all those scientists. It's funny. I, like, I thought that season four in that respect was like super violent and that the horror ratcheted up just because we were seeing teenagers. Yeah. Brutely murdered. Like their bones snapped and their eyes crush and their jaws dislocated and everything. That was, Eddie's girl. Chrissy. Yeah, that was very tough.

in season four. In this season, like, Vecna going like finger-branched knives through every orifice in someone's face. I'm like, I would have nightmares

for a really long time if I were a kid and I saw that. But then I was thinking back. And actually, this memory was helpfully sparked by seeing when Elle, you know, she times the first jump perfectly,

right, the seven seconds to the thunder clap. Oh, yeah. Miss times the second jump. In her Josh Brolin outfit, yeah. Brolin, yeah. It's a fun mix of the Goonies, certainly some Rambo and like obviously the Superman.

Yeah. Yeah, sure. Just like, all right, I missed time I had jumped this guard in the watchtower, notice I'm here. Sorry. Snap of the neck. Really took me back to 11 brutally murdering a number of assailants and opponents, but like Brenner's crew who she just like, eyebleeds at the end of the season one finale. I'm like, we've been casually killing people and stranger things from the job. It's true.

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You don't have to go too deep because I know you're going to talk about this with Joe. And now, like, seriously, if you've just been enjoying our conversation for some reason, we will be spoiling basically the things that happen in the fourth episode. So we'll be coming John Snow, Luke Skywalker, and Harry, Potter at the end of episode four.

When you saw that it was called sorcerer, did you have a feeling he was the sorcerer? Did you have a feeling something was coming with Will? Yes. And I think, like, something that Joe and I talked about a lot in the run-up to season four was a real desire to see Will more centered in the story again. Like, he's so crucial in seasons one and two. And then really just like kind of lost in the show in season 3 and 4.

As I aren't my friends as much as I'd like you to be. I love that scene actually in season three when he says, when he and Mike have that fight in the rain, it's like, you thought it would be like this forever. And we was like, yeah, I did actually. And I really love that beautiful conversation between Will's reaction to the conversation with Mike in the surfer, the surfer bros pizza van in season four. And then Jonathan's conversation with him in season four is like lovely. The California, like surfer stuff. Argyle ruled. I still say Argyle ruled.

So we'll give us, we got some lovely Will moments, but in terms of like how crucial he is. to the core mechanics of the story. Yeah. It just had shifted so far away from him in seasons three and four. And so it felt really important to recalibrate that in season five. I think the trailers made it clear that would be happening. His position even in like the poster made it clear that would be happening. So not surprised in that sense.

I think that the conversation that Robin had with him about finding, like realizing and embracing that what you need is already inside of you. And then this is just like, I'm sure you're. you're rolling your eyes. This could not be more of my shit. Like, I just, like, really loved that. And I think specifically the idea of Will tapping into the hive mind and kind of accessing his powers that way, I will try to keep this part quick for your sake and your audiences.

But, like, since season two, on the, on the Potter conference, everything with Will in season two, remember the idea of, like, the spy? I think there's quite a few Potter curious people listening to this. The idea of Will is the spy in season two. Since season two, I've been talking about this. Like, it just was so Harry Voldemort Horrocks, not even coded. Like, that's just what they were doing.

Like, what happened in season two of Stranger Things was the order of the Phoenix Department of Mysteries, like, who's spying on who really? And what is this connection between you, like, allow the villain to do. Everything with Max and the music is so Patronus-Coded. You don't know what a Patronus is. That's okay. You don't need to.

I'm happy to tell you if you're interested. off mic. So this idea of like opening season five reminding us that Will was first. And that he's had like this like very physical, almost medical procedural connection to Vecna. This literal connection to the hive mind. In addition to this deeper,

I think emotional and like kind of like existential connection to Henry Creel and like why did Henry choose Will, which I think I assume we'll be spending a lot more time on in the back half of the season, there's such a like mark him as his equal again like Harry Voldemort comp. If you're interested in more of this, we'll be talking about this for a while in House of Our tomorrow. And so this idea of like actually a power from that connection makes complete sense to me. I am curious to see what the balance is in the back half of the season then between L and Will and this fight.

Because obviously the nosebleed would suggest he has the same powers as L or whatever, but he's kind of like tapping in. the powers through the hive mind, right? But yeah, the wipe of the blood from those, just I thought a great touch, really great. Sure. The fact that, like, Elle is created in a lab, you know, Mike has this kind of set up speech to Will about, like, but your powers are innate,

like you're a sorcery, you're not a wizard. And then Will and Robin has this message to him about what's inside of you, and then, like, the memories of, and obviously this is like, of course, especially in the Robin conversations, like, deeply connected to Will's sexuality and Will discovering who he is and embracing who he is and embracing who he is and like figuring out when he is ready to say that to the world, right?

The idea that like his friends and family, his mom, being in peril is when he taps into and unlocks that power and that that is actually really different from 11's power source, but still like so much of 11's powers are connected to like parsing them, her mom's memory of what happened there. And getting in a bathtub. Got to get in that bathtub. You need the sensory deprivation. and all the through line across the seasons

of the conversations that Mike and 11 have had him like, am I the hero or the monster? Right? Yeah. Like, all of this feels very connected to me in a way that I think is really satisfying in the final season. So when I saw the word sorcerer,

did I know it would be well? I don't know that I thought about it that actively, but like, was like, did I think for sure Will would have powers? I don't know. But this feels right. He wasn't just going to be like the chump at the back of the line being like,

nobody's paying attention to me anymore. This feels right. Right. This feels right. the revelation that Max is trapped inside of Vecna's mind palace which is I'm glad that they came up with something because otherwise you've just got Sadie Sink in a coma

and it becomes like Rocky 2 basically like you're just like when are we going to get this really great performer and join the crew again it was cool I don't know if I get it you know and I'm curious to know what it is about the caves that Vecna can't go into and get scared off by.

Yeah. But I thought her scenes with the performer playing Holly were, you know, sweet. And obviously a lot of like very fably, you know, red riding hood kind of stuff going on. And that whole kind of setup of you live in this house and you can have any breakfast and anything you want. But don't go in the woods. And in fact, you are being held up in the upside down with like a tube down. your throat this whole time. Yeah.

Very interesting. But obviously, like, this is where I think you build up all these rules and guidelines to a world. And then you're just like, put the power of music, man. That's what we'll save you. You know? And it's like, all right. Well, sure.

Yeah. I mean, I think it's funny because, like, my stranger things theory brain starts to really activate when I see Henry guide Holly to the mailbox and there's a Tiffany tape. There's a Tiffany tape and a way to play it. And I'm like... But music is a shield against FECNA. Interesting. Like, you know, I think there's a lot still to unravel and parse there.

I was thrilled to see Max. Max is one of my favorite Stranger Things characters. You could never, there was not a scenario where I would have predicted that the Wheeler family was this central in season five. Obviously, Holly is like maybe the main character of these four episodes so far. And then, of course, your beloved Karen Wheeler and my beloved. Ted Wheeler. Ted, absolutely puring irons. If you have that kind of yard.

And he's playing, this is before like some of the new golf technology. You know what I mean? Like, he's just absolutely striping it. He was like, I pass the bacon. The bacon gets to him. It's gone. Right. He and Karen are having arguments.

He's like, how many wine? How many glasses of wine deeper you? Got to go relieve the stress out in the yard. Just get a couple strokes in really C-R-coded. But I think it's great. I think it's great that the Wheelers are the Central because like every season of Stranger thinks there's some really new central focus.

You know, we've got Max in season two, obviously like Billy as well. Robin comes in in season three, Erica takes on a bigger role. Dixie in season four. We haven't talked about dipshit Derek in season five. I love him. You're not a fan?

No. We did not need another character. But this is the perfect. Okay. On the one hand, we don't have to get you. We didn't need another character connects to what I was going to say about the wheelers,

which is like it's smart to me to use characters who actually have been there the whole time and aren't new characters and say, wait, isn't it actually fucking crazy that in basically half a decade of their family members being directly centrally embroiled in a battle for the sanctity of our dimension?

They have no fucking idea. They're just like weird, huh? Yeah, and Holly. Joyce just lives like now. But a year and a half. Holly in particular, who has witnessed like the demigorgan coming through pressing the wall

and the buyer's home in season one on through all the other horrors that she has seen, you know, the flayed, but moving through the treetops in season three at the State Fair, et cetera. I like bringing them more to the four. I'm glad there aren't a ton of new characters, but something like a Derek,

the Derek thing is really working for me, first of all, because he's just, I think that kid is really funny and, like, we need a little levity. So much of the levity and stricter things in the past has come from, like, Stephen Dustin, and they're both in a mood. They're in a funk. We need some laughs.

Definitely my favorite. sequence of the season is the Great Escape stuff. Like is Robin explaining the Great Escape. Very good. And Tom, Dick and Harry, the tunnels from Great Escape. And just like those guys doing the whole, like, we have to dig a tunnel, get these kids out. This kid's doing guided meditation.

That's great. That was very amusing. But I just was like, this is, we just like are, we need to be shrinking the roster and focusing on the people who matter rather than calling up guys from the minors in August here. On the shrinking the roster front, what do you want the death toll to be here?

Like, do you think we need to see... Let me talk to you about this. Tell me. When Hop walked into the vault again and then didn't die again, we're like, what is going on? Wrath of Khan ending 15 times in this show. And I've talked about this a lot on various episodes about various things.

This goes back to the first time I was really able to articulate it to myself was the fake out death of Chewbacca. And was that, Force Awakens or Rise of Skywalker? And the idea that you're going to take a beloved character, basically go right up until the point of death, show their quote unquote death, have everybody have the emotional reaction. And then it's like, oh my God, he's still alive, you know, for whatever reason.

And I actually was just like, what, you know, mostly I was thinking about this in terms of Karen Wheeler, but you're right. Hoppers, death procession, full Bruce Willis and Armageddon, seeing his life pass before his eyes only for it to be like, hey, I found something else behind this door. Yeah.

Was just like, you guys can't keep doing this. And then if you do kill him, I don't know if they're giving themselves optionality or like what the deal is with this, but it is a note that I think they play a little too hard. Like, Karen Wheeler was dead. That was like a pull-on episode of the pit. And this is a 1980s hospital

living under medical quarantine. Now, sure they could get some military assistance in their trauma surgery. It's a really deep neck wound. But she has a fucking demigodian claw to the thoracic area of her shit. And she's dead. She was...

The ability to just write to carry on a complete conversation on a notepad. And where's 10? I just got one gunshot. Nobody has checked on 10. So anyway, what do you think of the, like, we're going to keep doing fake out deaths? I'm a little like,

I'm experiencing some conflicting, conflicting feelings about it because on the one hand, I really love these characters and I like want them to be okay. I am not, I am not in general somebody who relates to the idea of like stakes in stories by thinking that can only mean death. I think there are a lot of ways that you can feel the stake. And I think the Joe and I talked about this for a while,

but the overt, like, the Shire can be saved, but not for me, a conversation that Mike and L had on the rooftop just feels like it's definitely safe. setting up, whether it's for 11 or other characters, the Frodo equivalent of like, I actually can't go home again. And I think there could be a parting of the ways that is not just like literal mortality that would be very emotionally raw for us. Her and her sister go back to Chicago.

Not interested in that. It's an incredible time in music in Chicago. But a return to like the heavy eyeliner and the bitch in would be, would be good. So I don't need people to die. However, and like we have lost characters. We lost Bob. We lost Eddie, et cetera. More than that. But Like, we've lost people. A lot of scientists. Many scientists, many scientists and many a lab. The Hopper one got me because, like... But that's like the third time it's happened with Hopper.

The end of season three, like, we said goodbye to Hop. Now, immediately, and obviously time travel is a huge part of this show in general. They've been setting up massive time travel endgame stuff for many, many seasons. They're playing with it. Characters have said the words time travel out loud in these episodes so far. Like, some of that is we're... going back in time through these memories, and maybe that's the form I will take.

Maybe there will be a more literal hour. Characters go back into this locked date of the upside down. None of that would surprise me. The end of season three, when we thought Hopper died, and then we go through this, like, very fascinatingly edited sequence where we're moving in and out of time, and we're talking about time, and Hop's letter, Elle is reading his letter, and I'm sobbing, I'm weeping,

I'm so moved and sad. Theory Brain right away is like, are they going to go back in time and save Hop? Did Hop get out? We had this whole sequence showing us like the... I was thrilled he was okay, but like we went through that with that character. And then he was okay.

So to kind of play with that again, I didn't love... Max died and then came back. I'm happy Max is here. But yeah, I think the... I don't need characters to die, but I think they need to be careful with the fake out death stuff because then it starts to...

You do risk that it starts to feel cheap or like a taunt rather than yeah so like I don't know who's gonna actually die you can have character be in peril and they get saved but I think if you do the like death montage for a character

more than once it's cheap so honestly Hopper would be one of the more logical people to go in this cast but they have really memorialized this guy this would be the third time I think it almost made me think for the

the first time ever, honestly. I was like, is he safe? Yeah. I like what you said to say, though, but stakes doesn't have to mean death. Yeah. But it would be, it would, but like, there aren't a lot of options when you're talking about a demigordian chasing you. The last thing I wanted to talk to you about, we've mentioned it a couple of times, is the lost sister coming back. Yeah. That they thought it was Vecna behind the door. It's in fact, Callie. I have not gone back to watch The Lost Sister. I remember when that episode aired being kind of intrigued by it. And I liked the creativity to imagine what else could we do at this time period and where could we go and like theoretically these people would from time to time try to run away from Hawkins,

try to get away from this shit. And there would be all sorts of different like fun executions of this that could happen. And I think they tried that, uh, with sending them all to California. Yeah. But it didn't have the same kind of because they send them as a group, because they sent like a bunch of characters to California. Yeah. It, never really felt like it was as gutsy as like, what if we, like, did, like, a backdoor pilot of, like, other kids out there that were like L? Obviously, they backed off of that if that was ever an idea. But they have not fully cashed the chip.

Like, they brought her back, and they've brought her back and set her up as a very crucial, like, element to the last couple of episodes of the series. So you're largely pro? I guess I would say I admire. the chutzpah and I also admire just like

I think embracing what TV is a medium allows you to do which is tweak and refine and not just say all right

that didn't work but like why didn't it work let's try to make it work this time I think that because the stuff with the other kids

at the lab was so strong in season four trying to make eight work again is like a noble intent I would say

so there's some power and like how could But Callie's powers work in the story questions I have that are like interesting, right? And in season two, her powers are different. She basically can like make people see things that aren't there, right? There's like the butterfly, the spiders crawling on hands, making the cops who are pursuing them think that there's like a collapsing rock face in front of a tunnel so they can get away.

Then in season four, we're in the 79 flashbacks in the lab. And they do kind of just very quickly like nod to and lampshed. Oh yeah, but like before eight left, like she's not there for that, right? but all the other kids appear to have the same powers as Allen won. So they kind of like said, no, this is like the power set. They're not maybe different kid to kid. Now could they change that again? Sure.

I'm sort of interested to see where that nets out. Depending what kind of music you're listening to at any given moment. Exactly. Like can Elle and eight team up basically? That's intriguing. What I'm more interested in and what I am kind of assuming the purpose of bringing eight back is, is to take 11 back to a place of like, oh, yeah, one is, was one of, like, he also was a kid who Brenner turned into a lab rat. And so is he a horrible. To be fair, it was somewhat disturbing before he got into the lab. He did have a, there was the Creel massacre. He killed his mom. He killed his sister. And he left his father to be tormented in a psychiatric ward, tormented by his demons forever. It wasn't just like. Like, hey, take my baby.

No. And like, as you noted with the moment with Max saying, like, he won't come into this cave and the look on his face, pure terror, like there's stuff we're going to learn about Henry's past and his kind of further origin story. But in season 4-11, he was obviously trying to, like, actively recruit her, and he was like, let's do this together. Sure.

Then she saw what he did in the mask her and was like, bro, I'm out. Sent him to send him through to the other dimension. But she was, very much like Papa did this to both of us. Sure. And so I'm wondering if eight coming back into the story

sends 11 into a little bit more of an empathetic headspace again with Vecna. Or are they bringing her back because of her specific skill set of being able to give people this illusion of a world that they're seeing and like is that going to be the, is that going to somehow be

like how they defeat Vector or something? And I think it also could connect just more directly to what you were saying is interesting to you, which is like the military government aspect because there's that line. from Dr. K to Hopper, like, the other, the other one,

like, why are you, wait, you brought 11 here, like, why do you, we don't know at that point who's in the door, behind the door, we just know it's not Vecna, which I did think made 11th, like, it's definitely Vecna thing, like, kind of inert as a storytelling device. Like, I don't love them we're that far ahead of the characters.

Sometimes it feels like they've written themselves into corners and think of that as like an exciting, stimulating exercise. Yes. But then it's like, you just threw, away like nine scenes of TV because they're so convinced Vecna's just behind a door. Yeah, exactly. You know, like

it's like, do you, or like they're like Henry's behind the door but Vecna's not and I'm like, but you blew Henry into pieces so like you know But then there's the like, but then there's the question of like well, why do they have eat there? Is it because they're trying

to take something from her powers and create other power people the way that Brenner did with one? Is she? Is she is like all of her powers, what's creating the upside down? Like, I have no idea. Is she, like, those hedgehogs, those sonic cannons that were destabilizing 11. And now we've seen, like, many devices over the seasons.

You had, like, the collars that Brenner was using it, the pill in one's neck, that 11 takes out. Now we have these cannons, like, they seemed to be surrounding eight so that they were, like, stifling her powers. Are they using her to power other things that could, combat 11. Like, you know, there are all sorts of questions. I'd say, like, I don't need a ton of eight in the final four episodes. So it's just sort of how I feel.

To your point about other characters, I want time for, like, Max to come back and be with Lucas. I want them to go see their movie, like in the little drawing. I am really invested in Will and the new relationship with Will and Robin and everything with Will and Mike in their friendship. I'm very deeply invested in Steve and Dustin having a breakthrough again and reconnecting him over. I just love the two of them.

I'm completely fine with like Nancy and Jonathan saying maybe let's like go date other people. I would be okay with that outcome. You know, I'd like the Wheeler's to be okay, I guess, as a family. That's this ringing endorsement for Ted's medical status. I hope Ted makes it. I hope Ted makes it.

Well, the good thing is, is that we only have a couple of weeks to wait. I think that this is actually, I was skeptical about it. I thought they were milking it. I know that I don't really know how the finessexia. and movie theaters thing is going to work. Yeah. Will you go see it in a theater? No.

You'll watch it at home. Yeah. Isn't it like two and a half hours? It's quite long. Yeah. It is on New Year's Eve. I'm not going to a movie theater to watch the finale of Stranger Things on New Year's Eve. Are you?

You hope they screen it? They were not going to screen it. I feel like no chance they're going to screen the finale. That just seems very unlikely to me. Will I see it in a theater? Maybe. Can I run through some hits from this episode of Lamband? I would just really quickly.

I would love it. I love this show. This show is fucking bad shit. now. Like, not now. The tonal jumps in this, this was a very like kind of taught episode of television in some ways because the scenes don't run as mindlessly long as in the first episode where like the dinner is just 13 minutes and stuff. So you get these disparate elements. Yeah. Any one of which I guess are pretty interesting. I have to say I love Alley Larder. I do think that it's absurd.

What her just blowing him like multiple times in this episode. All right. I don't agree. I'm not here to legislate or body shame. Of course not. Or sex shame anyone. I wouldn't expect you to. The only note I have on this,

there's not a single part of me that needs convincing that Angela would try to suck Tommy's dick in the car, not once but twice in one day. But when they juxtapose it with a chemical spill, it's kind of off-footing. both in terms of taking the chemical spill seriously and any kind of horniness that you could get from Angela. See, to me, this is why the show is perfect to go from an opening of like a bunch of wild boar and hunters have dropped dead from a toxic, noxious gas

that over the course of the episode, Dale will sort of but not really help us understand multiple times. I'm like, why are they telling you? can't come down. The thing's not beating it. They said the gas is heavy. Yeah. But like there on the ground, couldn't he just run to them?

And then they all, they have cars and keys. Couldn't they just leave? Like, waiting seems so much more perilous. Bad ship. The only actual thing that didn't make sense to me in the entire episode. The only one. Was it the cop who, when Angela was given her citation? Tommy a blowjob was like, I could give you a citation, but I won't.

No, it wasn't that. It was that both times Tommy was like. like, what's up with all the teeth? And I'm sorry, Angela didn't get where she is by not knowing how to give a blowjob. I don't buy that at all. I don't really know if I have a comment on that.

You probably do. What is she saying in this episode? He's driving 80 miles per hour. It's Texas. There's basically no speed limit. Here's the thing that she says in this episode. Your job on this planet is to achieve the impossible. Mine is to properly motivate.

That's why God created tits. Yeah. I noted that line. as well. That woman knows how to give a blowjob. I thought this episode was so wonderfully entertaining, and it crystallized for me something that I already knew, but now I'm prepared to say out loud. Is Landman the best show on TV? Of course not. But is it the most entertaining. It is definitely for its runtime, because you just really don't know what you're going to get in any given scene. And so the way that this episode ends, which I'll spoil this third up,

episode of Landman for anybody who hasn't watched it, which is seeming, well, no, a seeming union of both financial resources, but also just like hearts between M-Tex oil, the Norris family, and Andy Garcia's cartel-funded investment fund or investment group. Danny Morel. And I'm like, I can't quite tell whether Taylor Sheridan's like, no, this guy is a good guy. the cartel accountant is like a decent dude or not like there is a moment where I'm like when he's like trust has to be earned or friendship has to earn him like but like he owns your family house like what are you talking about I so I thought that both of the really long like the really

long were in the gentleman's club sequence with Danny Morale and he gotteman's club and the initial scene where Tommy goes to his office because he's basically like, don't fuck over my son, right? I thought both of these scenes were just like breathtakingly magical. Andy Garcia is Andy Garcia. He should definitely win an Emmy for this role. He's been on screen for 80 seconds, Val.

Then give him 80 Emmys as far as I'm concerned because each second is just resplendent. When Tommy initially walked in and Andy Garcia walked around the desk and shook his hand and introduced himself. I was like, wait, what is happening? Why did these care? Why are they acting like they don't know each other?

And didn't have this like life-altering moment in the finale. Tommy was going to be killed by the cartel and Danny saves him. Intervened, which then it turns out. To blackmail him. Is the whole point, right? It's not that they don't remember meeting. Of course, Tommy saw him on the paper. I was like, oh, no, I know what this guy is.

It's from Danny Morrell's perspective, now we become new people to each other. Right. Yeah. Calls him Thomas. I loved the way the mind fuck of how he talked. To your point about like, wait, does Taylor Sheridan actually think he's like maybe a stand-up dude? Maybe. I loved the way that he talked to Tommy about Cooper and it consistently was just like,

do you think what's really going on here is that you're embarrassed? He identified a market inefficiency. He's Billy Bean and you're fucking not. Like also why can't you just be proud of your son? You're just like this well hits homers, yeah. All of that is incredible. And then, yeah, the moment at the end where he basically like makes the appeal, the pitch to Cammy, he's like, I invest in people, you know, which of course is something that Tommy is not going to support and not going to want. Or is he eventually?

Because they have this $400 million lawsuit. They've got to drill this offshore gas well. They can't find the money in general. Alan, the fucking Alan, just Friday afternoon happy hour. where's Monty's money. They're actually like this whole, 60% they can take over the lease. Dale tells us that the oil,

yeah, it's fucking everywhere. It's all, it's at the pooling on the ground and the gases everywhere. You should, Dale's line to me. I would probably just increase our wrongful death.

That was great. A lot of the, okay, the oil company stuff, the oil drilling stuff. I found the chemical scene, the chemical spill scenes like gripping. I actually think Demi Moore is doing quite good work this season

and would love her to get out of, I have my glasses on and I'm reading emails and out in the world a little bit more. What about just out on her back patio wailing? On the slabs. With the coyotes meeting her howls. It's basically like a pluribus episode. And the Norris, specifically the Norris male lineage is interesting to me.

I love Allie Larder. Angela is my favorite character. Anzley and Angela are ridiculous creations. Do you care about Ariana's career as a bartender? I don't. I was... This is so Yellowstone, though, to be like, now the patch is a thing,

and the bartender of the patch is actually the greatest bartender of all time. That guy's been getting called an asshole for, like... Barney? Is that the same? I was like, oh. he's just like kind of a rip. Yeah. Like a little bit.

He's just kind of rip. That was a real yellow stone sequence. I agree. I am not invested in the slightest in Ariana. Yeah. So when she broke up with Cooper, even though I did not really allow myself to believe that that meant the end of that storyline,

I was content for it to be the end of that storyline. It does not seem that that is, is the case, and that's okay. Are you invested in Rebecca's wellness journey and her ability to lift? I am definitely invested in Tommy who takes more calls in his car than any person in the history of the world.

All Tommy does is drive back and forth across. Actually, while we're here, I'm going to look up the drive. No talking for at least an hour after a botched blowjob by head so fucked up right now and then Rebecca cuts in. I'm still on the phone. All right. How does Tommy not know to hang up that call? I guess he says he explains it right there.

My head's so fucked up right now. Midland to Fort Worth is four and a half hours. The way Tommy drives, call it $3.50. Well, that would explain why he was like, I have a noon meeting. Every episode, Tommy is doing an eight hours a day of driving, at least. You know, Cammy is not wrong when she's like, it would be good to have you in Fort Worth. They do. They use the plane a lot. They use the plane a lot.

Now I know there's a lien. There's a note on the plane, so that's worrying. The other thing that I think is hilarious about this is while Tommy is doing all this driving and taking all these calls, Cooper cannot get a fucking phone call. Like, Cooper always has to wait somewhere weird or show up somewhere in a jacket to get a conversation with his dad, even though Cooper's sitting on a billion dollars worth of oil. I quite enjoyed when Ainsley said that Cooper smelled like hot dogs in this episode. I thought that was great.

That made me chuckle. I'm so strayinger things, pill, that I was like, oh, I wonder what the story is with Ainsley and Cooper. Like, what do you do? Like, nothing. Their D&D campaign was interrupted by Lady Applejack. when I found the heart to heart about fatherhood and what you passed down to your sons and cycles and how they repeat between Tommy and Cooper in episode two.

Tears. To be more emotionally impactful than I was quite prepared to confront. I am so interested to see what happens next week because it's the funeral. You know, we know it's the funeral. Probably get some Sam Elliott. I got to tell you, being a guest star or a, you know, a season arc on Landman's seems like a great gig. Because so far, Sam Elliott hasn't gotten out of a wheelchair.

He just looked at the sunset. Yeah, he's just looked at the sunset. Andy Garcia has gotten to wear cool suits and sit down. Yeah. Like he's sitting at the cattleman's clothes. Smoked a cigar, had a couple drinks, has a hot wife. It just seems like what Andy Garcia does anyway. That's awesome.

All right, Mallory, thank you so much for joining me. Chris. Thank you so much for breaking down Stranger Things with me. I really appreciate it. Pleasure as always, man. I'll be back later in the week, probably with Andy. We are going to be talking pluribum. we'll talk some other stuff.

And then we're getting ready for best of the year. So we're doing our late crashing in some like Allen Harper. I'm trying to just get everything done before I make my list. No spoilers.

Okay. Bye guys.