The Watch - Streaming Inches Closer to Cable, Why the Latest 'Walking Dead' Spinoff Works, and 'The Changeling'

Episode Date: September 14, 2023

Chris and Andy talk about a quote from Warner Bros. CFO Gunnar Wiedenfels that streaming content "has been given away well below fair market value" and how services like Max continue to inch closer to becoming like old-school cable packages (1:00). Then they talk about the latest 'Walking Dead' spinoff, 'The Walking Dead: Daryl Dixon,' how this show is succeeding by leaning on TV tropes (26:14), and the first episode of Apple TV+'s 'The Changeling' (52:25). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris Ryan. and I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio, recently kicked out of a Colorado touring production of fetal juice. It's Andy Greenwald! How does it end?

You and Lauren Bovert really have a lot in common. We are committed to repertory theater throughout this great nation. You really are, though. You'll be like, I'm going to lay mis on a Saturday, you know? Yeah. Being a Broadway dad is real fun. For those who don't know, I'm referring to the fact that the esteemed representative from Colorado, Lauren Boer, was... The gentle lady from Colorado.

Asked to leave a Buell Colorado production, I don't know if that's Denver. I'm sorry. Production of Beetlejuice, which I didn't even know was a theatrical show in the first place. And apparently, allegedly, Lauren was hooting and hollering. I think vaping and then was like, do you know who I am when they were like, you gotta get out of here.

So fun is illegal now? Yeah, I know. I know. What are you going to do? And then Beetlejuice is a real like, yeah, it's a real crucial third act.

Yeah, I mean, here's the thing about Beetlejuice. If you say it twice, nothing happens. Yeah. But at the end, what a great time to be alive.

It's good to see you. I'm excited. Yeah. There's a lot of things are crackling in the stew today. I can feel it. No, I mean,

I think everything is going great. I have a couple of news items for you, but I always like to just kind of open up the floor for discourse for you. I also want to say, we watch television shows today. Yeah, today on the watch, we're going to be discussing the, I guess it's AMC Pluse.

It's AMC classic, too. Production, The Walking Dead colon, Daryl Dixon. We're also going to be talking about the new Apple show, came out last week, I believe, the new Apple TV Plus show, The Changeling, with the Keith Stanfield. We watched that too. and maybe some res dogs if we still have time.

I would like to kind of maybe bunch the res dogs conversation together, but I am here to serve. You want to bring back the bundle? Well, it's funny that you should mention that. Look at us. Because, you know, I learned from wise old man once that if you really want to know what's going on in the world, read the business section. Bill Simmons isn't that old.

And it's like you can see kind of like what people moving money around care about if you read the business section. Isn't that also... Not all this climate crisis stuff, you know? You're talking the way people who look at Fandu a lot talk to. Right?

Like, it's not dissimilar. Yeah, but it was just, you know, I think that you can glean a lot from... Okay. The way money is moving around the world. So today, we usually don't talk about the comments,

the public comments of Warner Brothers Discovery's chief financial offer Gunner Weidenfell's. We usually don't. Well, you and I record our own private off-mike podcast about Gunner. Young Gunners. It's called Young Gunners.

And it's a deep dive into all the things that led to him becoming the chief financial officer for Warner Brothers Discovery. The twists and turns along the way. The discography of the Philadelphia Rap Group Young Guns plays. Yes. So that's why we haven't been able to find a lasting sponsor for it. I would describe the reaction of the stamps.com people as alarmed. Yeah. That's right.

They did ask us to leave. That's right. I saw that GF. He was talking at the... Let me get this right here. Is that what his friends call him? No, G.W. My bad. Wydenfell is not GF. Right. But his name is Gunner. Why don't we call him Gunner? Okay. I take note that Gunner was speaking today at the Bank of America, Securities Media Communications and Entertainment Conference, which I'm surprised you were able to make it to the pod today

because I know how you like... Thank you. The Bank of America, Securities Media Communications and Entertainment Conference. I was invited. I was invited. Yeah. And, you know, I'll distill his comments down a little bit, paraphrase, and maybe I'm not the best person to do that. Here's a quote from his comments.

He was talking a lot about the streaming, like basically like what the price point for streaming and how these media conglomerates treat their streaming arms and treat the content that go on it. Here's a quote for a decade in streaming, an enormously valuable amount of quality content has been given away well below its fair market. market value. And I think that's in the process of being corrected. We've seen price increases across essentially the entire competitive set. So I suppose he's referring to all of the other streaming networks that are raising. We've increased prices, especially internationally. Take that rest of the world. Take that both, India's. And where a lot of the HBO Max launches were very, very much targeted at the maximum possible subscriber number, not necessarily the maximum possible economics from the launch.

in this case, when you say the launch, you're not referring to individual shows like Titan Season 4. I'm talking about the platform. And I think what he is saying here is like what we charged for this thing to entice people to sign up, to grow our subscriber base, and thus entice Wall Street to allow us to have debt and pump up our numbers. Because they're like, look, look at the growth. Look at the growth. Now they're like, what we want is $20 a month. Right. You know, and...

Good luck. He's gone as far as discussing... making subscriptions annual rather than monthly, which was one of the, you know, people like Kaya, sort of content pirates like herself. They like to say, Stranger Things is on Netflix. The churn, you're talking about. Yeah, I will sign up for Stranger Things or sign up for Netflix. Essentially sign up for Stranger Things.

I'm going a la carte. I know it's going to be there. I'll watch for a couple of weeks. I'll get through this new season of Stranger Things and then I'll get rid of Netflix. That's what I do with the Atlantic. I just sit on the sidelines and I'm like, oh shit. that Romney drop. I'm like Jennifer's

got a new heater. Take my money. I read it. I check out that wild Romney story that I sent around to everybody. I felt like I was the only one who knew about it because, you know, I'm not on Sosh.

It was covered in most major media outlets. One thing that I love is the Philadelphia Eagles. Two things that I love are Philadelphia Eagles and old school traditional Republicans speaking truth to power.

I love it. Especially the day after they were I love it. Anyway, yes, so the churn. Gunner wants to stop the churn. He's sort of suggesting that there's a world in which, you know, the price you pay for these streaming platforms goes up. I would probably guess precipitously if they're like, we feel like we've sort of hit the ceiling of the number of people who are going to probably sign up for this thing. But how much can we get out of each person who is signed up for it is another question. And if they decide to go with something closer to a cable model, that is a yearly contract or even just making it absolutely awful to like untangle yourself as I am a testament to that experience that's just very difficult to like get out of cable contracts

or get out of cable relationships they get very upset they're just like sir sir what can we do to keep your business you're a loyal customer what do you make of all this I mean do you think we were going towards a world where we get into 24, 25

and people are paying $29.99 a month for Max and $29.99 a month for Netflix to keep it ad-free or whatever it is. You know, again, I am often invited to the Bank of America money. The Bank of America Securities Media Communications Entertainment Conference. Jumbo Funhouse. I do go to that a lot and know what people are talking about, so I'm the right person to ask here. But from my layman's perspective, everybody's really fucking dumb. That's my perspective. because from this violent lurching and chasing after the shiny thing has devalued everything across the board

and left people in a moment, this exact moment, where you have conditioned more than one generation to expect to have everything everywhere all the time all at once for relatively little money. And at this exact moment, when people do not have very much money, anecdotally, but also things are tough, you are asking them to spend precipitously more.

For who? For them? Because they mortgage their entire, not just their content libraries, the future of their business on a shareholder growth play that had no exit ramp, that had no Chapter 2, that had no third act of Beetlechuse.

There was no plan other than we will launch this and become popular and prove to everyone that we have something of value, and we'll lose billions in the process. That was where we got to where we are. And then, as you pointed out, interest rates changed. The state of play economically around the world changes.

Ask the music industry, it is very, very, very hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube once people expect to get things for free. Yep. And you could then say, some might say, sir, sir, the music industry has stabilized. People are making money again in the music industry. Well, yes, the rich are getting a lot richer, for sure.

but also in the music industry, people now accept streaming as the dominant way to interact with music. And I love it. And you are super into it. But when we stream music, we are paying one place, whether it's one of the best companies in the world, Spotify, or Apple or whomever else. We are not paying capital records 1999 a month to stream their company. catalog and also Warner Brothers 1499. Or Columbia Records 1999 for 10 CDs for a penny, you know?

God, take me back. Take me back. We are not doing that. Yeah. So weirdly, even though I'm sort of stumbling into this analogy, maybe all this talk that like even Gunner's boss, David Zazlal, I was saying about like we need to get back to bundles and you're seeing now, you know, AMC content is on

it's on Max at the moment, right? And a lot of Max content or there is some Max content that is on Netflix now. Yes. And Amazon continues to just in its own ads for its service, say, and also you can get Paramount here and all these other things. Like, this is where we're headed, but this is all just so terribly mismanaged. You know, I do think, again, big business guy here, I do think a world in which creative output has monetary value and the companies demand money for the right to engage

with this content to help get creators paid in addition to patting their own bottom line. Yeah. But, guys, it's September 2023. You know, what are we doing? Well, I think what I'm fascinated by beyond the business question is somewhat of a brand identity question for the platforms themselves, which various platforms went further or not far to brand themselves or like to mint themselves as the home of this, the home of that, where you can come to find this all in one, one monthly fee as much as you want. And the extent to which, so a lot of what Gunner Wineville's talked about at this thing was,

what can we extract value-wise from the stuff that we're making? Yeah, which is his job. So let's say, could we enter a world where there's Max and you pay for Max a month? Or if you are just a Game of Thrones fan, you pay the Game of Thrones subscription. Oh, so there's also Min in addition to Max, where you just get a little bit of it. Well, there's, or dragon. Dragon. Yeah.

Like, there's something where you're like, I want all the Game of Thrones content. I don't really care about it. And just like that. I don't need the discovery stuff. Instead of creating a straw man, just say me. I'm that person. All I want is as many houses of dragon as possible.

Right. So I wonder whether or not there's also a world in which they basically guard against people who would have signed up for Max just for House of Dragon season two by saying get the dragon pass. I mean, look, where you live in a world? Like, whenever I hear about people taking their kids to Disney now, they're like, they get you every which way they can.

Like, there's always another tier that you can pay to get faster, quicker access, to cut more lines, to get earlier entrance, to get later exits, whatever it is, better parking, easier access to select food, time with goofy. You know what I mean? And, like, I don't understand why they would. basically apply that to their most high value, like, properties.

The last time I went to Disney, I paid, I'm almost embarrassed to say how much money I paid to have the FX executive team, John Landgraf, Nickrad and Gina Baleen, meet me on the Mad Hatter and just talk to me about where they saw this, the whole thing going. The Mad Hatter going? Well, that was going in circles. And frankly, so is the business. Do you, speaking of the business. It's, Chris, I hate to say it, but these companies are at it again. I just, I truly, I don't know what the plan is here.

I think I'm just very in tune with what we pay for what right now because of coming out of not having ESPN for all of nine days. And you didn't handle it well. You didn't, it didn't go great. I spent one podcast talking about it and I guess I'm starting another. But I'm just, you know, I did this is, I think to see these things happen while there is also the strike going on. And the way that these two things are related, for instance, you and I did this fall TV. preview a couple of weeks ago. We have another show from our fall TV preview going to 2024.

That's Mr. and Mrs. Smith. I was always skeptical that was coming out this year. But yes. Sure. But now they're like it's early 24. That has been delayed quite a bit because Phoebe Waller Ridge was initially going to co-star with Donald Glover. And now it's my Earth-Skyne.

And I think they're probably done as the Amazon way, a couple of different reshoots on there. But like, you know, I think that as we watch 2023 kind of collapse instead of end, it's interesting to talk about where we could be net this time. Most of years do that these days, I find. That's not so unique. I just think when I'm joking

when I'm like the companies read it again, but I think one thing that is fundamentally just broken across a lot of industries is what do we want from these places and what are they giving us and what are we paying for? And for your Max example, I have no brand loyalty to the streaming service Max. Right.

I don't know. know what I don't really know who Chip and Joanna Gaines are. I, maybe I, I figured you did. I don't know and I'm okay with that because I've reached the point in my life where you know. Why are you actually like you don't know who Chip Gaines is? I don't really know. I know he was interested in Larry McMurtry's library. He bought it. So now I know who he is, but I've never watched one of his shows. Is he like a property father? You know what I mean? He's a guy who wears usually like a solid color t-shirt and boot-cut jeans. Literally describing the Manciting Crossory right now. I'm not wearing boot-cut jeans.

There's a table. All right. Give you some respect. You look great. I already complimented you on your shirt. Although I think boot-cut jeans do seem to, are they coming back? I don't know. Kaya says yes.

Yeah, they are. I got your hair. Anyway, he's married, I believe, to Joanna. Right. Because a lot of the property couples, like they have splits and stuff like that, but they'll continue to make stuff together. Like, there's like a whole real estate person. Well, no.

One of the property brothers married. A lot of the property. couples. I'm saying like when you're like, oh, and they're like, we flip this. But the brothers can't split. No, they can't. I mean, they're also like identical, aren't they? No, I can tell them apart. No, I can't. Just fucking with you. My point is, I don't, that giant circus tent of content on a personal engagement level means nothing to me. I want to watch television shows that I like and I want to be able to find like Turner Classic movie stuff sometimes. That's the extent of it. Yeah. But I think that this turn towards amorphous, like, brand building and relationships, and we need to have as much as possible in order to show that we're doing this for whom is so out of step with any kind of consumer thing.

I mean, this won't mean anything to you because I feel like we are on opposite sides of this divide. But there's a— Mitt Romney? You know what? Chris, the loyal opposition used to mean something. Sure. You don't really fly Delta that much, right? I don't have the opportunity to fly Delta very much.

Because they don't fly to Philadelphia. No free ads, but this is going to be the opposite of an ad. But I have points and an affiliate, like, I fly, that's the airline I fly. And then today they announced all the things that you've been doing, we're changing it. So they don't have any value anymore. What do you mean? They just undid their whole, this is the most bougie. This doesn't matter.

But my only point of saying is... This is pretty interesting to be. What happened? They're basically like, we will, starting in 2024, the miles you fly will no longer count towards any kind of status or frequent flyer, whatever. The only thing that has value is the money you spend with us. Oh, so like using their credit card or buying stuff on airplanes? No, booking hotels and rental cars in addition to flights through Delta because they want to be your destination app, basically. And I'm like, you motherfuckers fly the planes.

that's it. You know what I mean? Like, I can find a hotel on my own. You don't need to be all these things. So the only way to get status on Delta now is to book a Marriott through Delta? To a crew, yes. Or to, like, be allowed into the lounges

or all these things. Whatever. These are the least interesting and least important concerns, tiniest violin. My only point is... They took what was like you've spent... People were loyal to them.

Your life's work. Because I'm like, you fly airplanes in the places I want to go. And if I fly on the... those airplanes to those places I want to go, I am rewarded for it. Sometimes I get a complimentary sky hyniquin or whatever. You know what I mean? A skynikin, we call it. That's a free ad. Please send me some. But now they're like, everything that made you loyal to us, no, we don't want to be that for you anymore. We are going to be this other thing. Because some bright boys back at

HQ are like, this is the better pathway towards making money and making everything. Also the thing about value you were saying too, which is just like, we actually think that we've been getting too many of you dummies into the lounge or too many of you getting these upgrades. We don't want to do that anymore. Right. Now you're just going to pay more for less. So you think I'm on the opposite side of this argument? No, I think you are, as always, a man of the people who flies to Europe constantly.

I think instead that you with your friends at Bain Capital. England's not in Europe. That's true. That's true. Oh, and also I'm pro-mit romney in this. We're getting a little twisted up. No, I meant you are not, you are A, not a. empathetic to my plate because no one should be. This is not a plight. But B, that's not the airline you fly. That was the only thing. It's not just because of where I

attend to fly within the domestic United States. It's kind of like, I know people who listen to this podcast, if we ever have different opinions about the show, some people are like, oh, there was real friction today. They should know that the only time there's ever been real friction today is when it was discovered that we had different hotel loyalty plans, that our hotels of choice. And then for like two days, I started. texting photos of like Bonvoy gang. That's guys, turn 40,

everything gets great. Anyway, what are these companies doing? That was my, put a button on it, that was my point. Okay. Do you want to talk about the showrunner drama? I think that honestly, like people who are outside of like the very small, like I read the Ancler and Melanie bubble would probably not even know that this happened. It in some ways was as much ado about nothing, I think.

But would you like to just do a quick explainer on, like, what happened this week to the extent that you were able, given your... Well, I think things are... You're positioned as a showrunner yourself. Sure. I think sentiments are running high. I think nerves are frayed, primarily due to the drastic devaluation of Sky Miles and fiscal 24. All you fucking guys. On all of us.

All you guys just standing outside of an Einstein's bagel crying. Being like, I used to be in the lounge. I used to be a platinum medallion in this country. Right. So it was a confusing week here in Strikeville. I'm using a joking tone, but like, it's getting really real. It's been really real for a lot of people for a long time, but many, many, many people are out of work. Many people are hurting. Untold numbers of people are leaving the business. It's bleak and it's upsetting. And in a vacuum of information, because there has been no official channel communication, I think there's constant back channeling. But between, the Writers Guild negotiating committee and the AMPTPTP since last month. Yeah. Mid-August, right? Yes.

And I think there's been a lot of confusion about what's going on. I can give you my opinion about that. But anyway, what happened this week is that there was news broke that there was some sort of cabal of some powerful showrunners who were demanding answers from the guild and saber-rattling and upset about the slow pace of negotiations. news broke via Sharon Waxman and the rap on Monday, saying that Kenya Barris and Blackish and Grownish and Noah Hawley, my old boss on Legion and Fargo,

and a few others. Dan Fogelman, I think, was named. I think the Duffer brothers were potentially part of it. It was unclear whether they were presenting themselves as almost like a coup against the negotiating committee or their displeasure was just being made public. what I understand from behind the scenes, it's unclear. I guess I'm not in a position to comment because I don't really know the answer. Sure.

I know that they canceled their meeting when it became clear that it was being construed by the press as a criticism or oppositional. Somehow division within the ranks, yeah. I'll say that I'm on a WhatsApp with many hundreds of showrunners and people were pretty shocked about this. There's been pretty much solidarity and uniformity and debate, but not taken to this level. and in my experience and understanding the negotiating committee and the guild is like very, very avail to talk to.

There was a big showrunner solidarity picket at Fox this week that I was happy to be a part of and negotiating committee was just there. Like you could talk to them and say these things. Anyway, there's accusations being thrown around about whether these showrunners were being like,

shadow organized by CAA. Yeah, whether it was like, hey, we're just asking if you guys need any help. Yeah. Versus we, we are putting pressure on you to get a deal. I believe that's what Regenny Progoshan said.

That's why he was marching to basketball. That's why he's just like, I have a militia would love to help and talk. So whether this was being shadowbacked by the AMPTP or the CAA, I think the main

takeaway is division is going to be used. Yeah. And who knows? Who knows? I think that the disturbing thing, the disturbing thing for me at the moment is just that, you remember a couple of weeks?

weeks ago or months ago now when there was that article with anonymous sources being like, the strategy is to force people to lose their homes and then we'll talk. I do. Because they should feel a little something here. And that was also, not to be fair, but just I'll say that was also subsequently like, I think the studios themselves were like, we don't, like, that's not our position kind of. No, that's not, that's true. That was, that was, nobody took credit for that.

Yeah. I don't, I think that that was, but go ahead. I agree. But the reason I bring that it was not. At this point, hard to say that that is not what's happening. It is starting to happen. But my point isn't that that was the strategy. My borderline depression this week comes from the fact that if that was their strategy,

it is cruel and it is heartless, but it is a strategy. And my read on the situation now is that the AMPTP members have no strategy, have no ability to communicate with each other or agree on. shared goals by moving this forward. And that's terrifying in the short term because it means this drags on and on and on because the last communication that I am aware of was the WGA countered the proposal that was leaked in mid-A August. And then a week or so ago, the CEOs were meeting to discuss their response. And there has been nothing more from that. And what that suggests to me is they can't get their story straight. And they can't even agree. I think they all agree

this has to end. And they cannot agree on a way out, which is worrisome in the short term, but it's really, really existentially terrifying in the long term because these are the people that we're in business with, not just as a writer, but in the sense that we're all part of this great big, happy family of America's soft power export. Hollywood, like, there's really no plan. That's worrisome to me.

And I think that in this vacuum, a lot of, it's getting edgy. It's getting rough. The playoffs are here. And you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for Fandual Predicts and predict it from the couch.

Offered by Fandual Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus. Trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for. That's when Prime's same-day delivery as you're back.

Getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast. Available in select areas, terms apply. Well, we still have shows. Mm-hmm. We can talk about them. First of all, I just want to say, shout out to you.

Great, great podcaster. Feels great to like. I really just wanted to know what you thought about that. I didn't want to be, I'm not trying to like no-sell like your showrunner recap. I think that's fascinating, but like I don't have like a good podcaster because, no, that was, I was turning the page. Okay. I was like, I think you're great. I'm sorry what I said about your pants before.

That wasn't fair. I haven't even looked at your pants because the shirt's so good. What I wanted to say was just old school entertainment podcasting felt great. We went, we watched some shows. Yeah. Yeah. We both did our homework. And now we're going to talk about them.

I enjoy that. Did you want to talk about the lessons in chemistry trailer at the top of the podcast, the section of the pod or later in the pod? vibes are good right now. Do you think this is going to spoil them? Let's save it for the end. Okay. Okay.

All right. I enjoyed talking about the bike riders trailer at the end of the last pot anyway. Okay. I think it's a fun place to put that conversation. Andy, two new shows and then reservation dogs, obviously, which is concluding its run. I think it has two more episodes after the one that just aired this week. For a guy who doesn't want to talk about reservation dogs, you keep talking about it. I'm just mentioning it.

I do want to talk about reservation dogs. No, you want to talk about it next week or the week after. I watched it. I'm ready to talk about it. I just think that sometimes having more than one reservation dogs to discuss is useful. On today's episode of the watch, Andy and Chris talk about whether they should talk about reservation dogs. Yeah. I want to talk about this Walking Dead show first. So do I. You and I, everybody who knows anything about us knows we're WD Day ones.

Unfortunately, that's true. It is true in the sense that we were podcasting when Walking Dead first came on. I think podcasted. Did you recap the first season? Brother, I had to recap at least two to three years. So through that Omaha episode at least, where you were like, The Future of Television is Here, right? Oh, I was way past that. I was, yeah, do you know how, spoiler alert,

do you know how this show opened with Daryl Dixon tied to a boat? This new one, the Daryl Dixon show, yeah. And we're going to spoil the first episode of Daryl Dixon. That was me with The Walking Dead for a number of years. I think if you read the later recaps, it was increasingly untenable. And then the show went on for 11 more years. Yes, it did.

Yeah. Well, 11 years total. Yeah. So I think that I watched the first few seasons of Walking Dead. I think I... I have solidarity with me. And solidarity with Bernthal, essentially. I think I was there for the Shane run.

I don't know how long Shane was on the show. Two, three years. I think I got... When was it? Noah Emric was like the doctor that they find? Oh, that was episode five. That was back in Darrybant. That was the fifth episode.

That was like the first, because the show premiered with like a mini run. Yeah. Like five. Oh, so they get to like the CDC in the beginning? That was the beginning. And then they never, as far as I remember, they never really talked about why it happened again. Like they just stopped trying to cure it and was more about. Chris.

Grantland.com. Okay. The Walking Dead keeps shuffling toward greatness, but never quite gets there. By your boy. date line October 12th 2015 wow that's not that long

in its sixth season there are things the walking dead can do that no other series can dream of but that was like was that an essay or was that a recap an essay

was that fucking sonnet slouching towards Bethlehem that's actually a good walking dead episode title name the walking dead is I don't know why I'm beating around the bush I'm not I'm not wasting time I'm going to tell you some things

about walking dead dead Gerald Dixon. So obviously walking day goes on for 11 seasons. This is the fourth to last thing I ever did for Grantland. My God. What was the last thing? Iya Cash was on the podcast. The podcast? Sorry, I had a podcast. It was just my name.

I don't know if you remember that, but Iowa was on it. October 28th. What was the last episode of the Hollywood prospectus that we did? Well, I believe, you know, shots, but I believe you had left the property at that point? No. In 2015?

I mean, I think it all happened then, but like, wait, when was the last episode of the Hollywood Perspectus? I mean, I could find out. I went to Croatia. I came back. Next thing you knew. Chris Connolly's sitting there. What happened? I know what was the last episode.

All right. I'm stalling because I don't know. I panned the show, Wicked City in a whole column. Caps and Crossovers. Seth Myers came on, the pod, because at that point there was just the pod. It wasn't a pod. I wrote about Bordane, wrote about the Nick, Andre Holland. By the way, I was on a heater at the end of 2015.

Okay, here's the last one. So much TV back then. I know, so can't anyone cut me some slack? It was eight years ago. Here we go. Are you enjoying this guy? She's cutting all this. She stopped recording 10 minutes ago.

The last Hollywood prospectus was October 6th, 2015. That's my wife's birthday. That was why you left, I think. You were like, I have. It's like Hollywood Prospectus podcast, The Homeland and Leftover's premiere, Phoebe's birthday, got to go. That's what it says in...

Gotta take my life to Croatia. And also leave ESPN. Yeah. Man. Good job. Nice job by you. And you've always been a Walking Deadologist. So you'll be able to help me chart

the subsequent 10 seasons of Walking Dead that happened after you started out. Definitely. No. So Walking Dead obviously has become, a franchise. It is essentially propping up AMC networks. It's a huge moneymaker in terms of it has like a whole convention's arm during Halloween Horror Nights season. I'm sure they do walking dead activations at some theme park where you can go get attacked by zombies. That would be

your, your bailiwick. Well, I'll tell you a little bit about these walking dead zombies and especially the French ones that are in Daryl Dixon. Not scary. I know. I'm kind of glad we're going to talk about this in a second. Because that's never actually been the whole thing with the Walking Dead. You ready? Ready to drop this gem? Say it. Say what's really scary.

The real evil is man itself. What? That is, hold on. Kaya, put in the head exploding music. That is radical. So I would say I probably kept up with Walking Dead lightly through recaps. Like I would be like, oh, did Nagan die and did he come back? Nope.

Yes. Maggie, what's up with Maggie? What's up with Rick? We've got fear of the Walking Dead. there's Walking Dead Is it called Dead City? That's the Nagin' Maggie spin-off where they're in New York

and it's supposed to be like Escape from New York, right? Just nodding at this point. And then there was like young like basically like teenage walking dead. There's Muppet Babies Walking Dead. And there's some animated stuff I think. But there's also an anthology series.

I'm not sure which one that is. And there's also Talking Dead. Oh yeah, I know. And then so we get to basically Daryl's like, Daryl's the guy. Daryl is of, It's like Rick, Darrell, Mishon, like, whoever the big characters are that need their spinoffs. And also when Andrew Lincoln left the show after season eight or nine, I don't remember.

It was immediately announced that he would be like in Walking Dead movies. Three movies. Yes. Still waiting on those. But Norman Reyes, who plays Daryl, assumed the first position on the call sheet and was the star of the franchise until they ended the mothership show after season. And when Daryl Dixon was first announced, it was supposed to be a Daryl and Carol show, but Melissa McBride decided she did not want to move to Europe to shoot this show, which is where this show is set. By the way, world beyond was the limited series anthology series.

We've done great work covering The Walking Dead on this podcast today. And also looking within. And also Googling my name and The Walking Dead live on air. Look, this is all prelude. I said to Caius that I needed an extra half hour to get the rundown really deep. tight today. Is that what you told Kaya? Yeah. I was like, I needed an extra 30 to like just write down a bunch of stuff. And that's where we wound up Googling you. This is the show I've always wanted to make. So thanks, everybody. This is too much, too much throat clearing to say that Walking Dead was never really

for me. Yeah. I thought it had some high highs and then just a lot of mediocre, not necessarily lows. Didn't have much interest in any of it as it continued. That's fine. I thought this Daryl Dick and show was pretty good. Yep. I thought it was pretty good. Honestly, pretty dope. Not mad at it. And I want to start by saying, I don't know if the show will live up to what I'm going to say, and I don't know if that matters.

But there are certain times in our, like, franchised universe where the decision between making, like, a brave choice and a safe choice doesn't feel like D-Day. It's not like either we do this. because this show starts on a beach and France of France.

Great call. They're just simpler ones, honestly. And the decision to take a character that has been running around

the swamps of Georgia for 11 years and just put them in France and shoot the show in France and cast all the other parts with

interesting French actors and performers and give us a different place and a different tone and a vibe is enormous. Yes.

It's enormous. Now, I realize in a world, like, it's not, this show is not Andor, but it is more Andor than it is Asoka. No offense to Asoka. Truly, in this case, I don't mean it. Yeah. In the sense that, okay, we're just going to try it over here. We're just going to try it. And it's still going to have the zombies and it's still going to, this is not prestige, prestigious, like, brainy television. It's still the Walking Dead. So let's do a, but I was super into this decision and it made me engaged in the show.

A traveling samurai wandering the French countryside with a vague mission of getting home, getting waylaid by the better angels of his nature to take care of a messianic young child. Good idea for a show. So it's like, it worked when it was Kung Fu, it's working now. It's worked when it was The Last of Us. It worked when it was Shane.

It's good. It's a good, durable idea. And one of the things I really liked, you know, the vulture recapper for, I can't remember the name, it really pointed this out, is that this show, like, operates with a lot of silence,

you know, and, you know, it's not exactly Kurosawa, but it isn't, it's pretty good when it comes to, like, just being like, I want to watch this guy

walk around the French countryside. I don't need a lot of banter. I don't need to fill in a lot of, like, franchise world building blanks here. Daryl is not a very, verbose character. He doesn't, like,

he's not very demonstrative. He's pretty cool. he winds up getting a cool outfit, even though he's been in the Atlantic Ocean for a while, and he winds up wearing a cool, like, quasi-fisherman motorcycle outfit. Well, it's also this thing where it's just like, the one thing that unites the people who have survived 10 years into the zombie apocalypse is fingerless gloves.

Yes. Even the nuns got him. Well, so that's the thing is that, like, they just got a really tight pitch for the show, which is Darrell and Warrior Nuns protect messianic child in post-apocalyptic landscape of France. And to be clear, I don't know whether it's something that's in the atmosphere or around the old WGA water coolers,

but like we had fighting nuns earlier this year in Mrs. Davis. This is Last of Us. It just is. At your point that they're, you know, lone wolf and cub and there are many examples in media of this trope of like protecting the magical kid. Even Obi-Wan did that much to my horror recently. But that's fine. It doesn't bother. It feel, all of those things feel familiar.

And if you were really agitated about it, you could say like, oh, well, last of us does this differently or does it better. But The Walking Dead has never done this. Yeah. And honestly, the French part makes it a lot better. Because they went and they did it. It feels, I don't know, this also might just be like that I'm CGIed out or volumed out. But it was pretty that they were in a place. So you are notorious for holding foreign actors feet to the fire with their mastery of English.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. We've got a couple of French actors in this piece. What did you think of that when they switch to English? Well, Clement's Poisee is an actress that I like a lot. And I've often, I'm a fan of her. Yeah. What's your favorite Clements Poisey? Well, in my household, it's the Harry Potter movie that she's in. Yeah.

So that's the big one. She's in Bruges. Yes, thank you. And she's in The Tunnel. I don't know if you ever saw that with Stephen DeLaine. The series The Tunnel. which was the British version of the bridge. Is it where they find the body in the chunnel?

It's the bridge, which has been made in like 19 countries. Yeah. How many different versions of it have you watched? I've got to catch them all. I am the world's leading expert on murders that happen at the midpoint of international boundaries. Yeah. That's just kind of everybody's got their thing, you know? And for you, it's the Pokemon.

Some people have baseball cards and this is it. This is it for me. Are you still Googling yourself? Yes. I wrote, What Clemens Poesy movies have I liked Andy Greenwald? Genius Picasso. Not just riffing.

Anyway, you're asking me what I thought of people's English? Like, I kind of like the fact that he just showed up in France, speaks no French, but meets six people. I mean, 10 years after the apocalypse who speak English? Yeah. That was you. Yeah.

This is a great setup for a show. you mentioned Asoka. This is an interesting contrast to a show like Asoka where essentially I find that not knowing the legacy of the characters and the backstory of the characters as illustrated literally in the animated series that they have been originated in,

makes it difficult to understand the significance of any given moment in Asoka for me. And I kind of felt like this was the complete opposite in Daryl, where it's just like, I get it. a guy yet like Judith pops up in a dream or whatever and like there are mentions of like who the Rick's daughter Judith yep I was just testing you you passed you got me worried for a second there but until the very end of this episode there essentially is no outside world beyond the one that Darrell is like surveying right in front of it let me tell you my favorite favorite

thing about the show other than just broadly France I have no idea how he got there and I don't care. I don't care. We understand that he is from America, and this is a time when, due to the really cruel devaluation of Sky Miles, flight between continents is no longer possible, at least at the price point

or in the part of the cabin that people like Daryl and myself are accustomed to. So we get it. We just fully get it. It's fine. I love that they don't tell us any more than that. You think Daryl's a lay flat guy? Yeah, he lays flat on the whole.

of a boat. You don't see him. Yeah. Yeah, of course he is. He's had to survive this long somehow. But I think there's a lesson in that. I think there's a lesson in not worrying too much about the past because it's fine. We understand. But also there is, or at least there appears to be. And I don't, I'll confess, I don't know if Judith and her other friends really, like, really cracked the code on this the last five years of Walking Dead Prime. But what struck me about the show was, and it least a passing interest in what comes next. Can we cure this? What are the origins of this?

Is there research? Is there something? Because, again, as far as I remember, and this may have developed differently in the last few years, after Noah Emmerich, sorry, spoiler statute of limitations is up, that blew himself up in the CDC, they stopped talking about it. And that was, at the time, that felt pretty radical, which is this is not a show about a cure. This is a show about dealing with it. but this injection of religion and hope and prophecy and stuff.

Yeah, the idea that after a while, like, basically the old ways would come back. Now, I never really was clear. So Walking Dead started in 2011. 10 or 11, yes. So presumably at that point, the internet goes down. Like, is it supposed to be 2010 in the Walking Dead? Well, oh, oh, does it end? It premiered on Halloween 2010.

And what I think is confusing about the internet date is that at that time in the show's chronology, charter was in a very big dispute with some of the major legacy studio. So it was already down. Yeah. But the reason why I bring it up is because the first people that Daryl comes across, other than seeing Clem's Poesy in the distance there, is... And he's like, what TV show did I like her in? Which version of the bridge are you on, girl?

is he comes across classic pairing, old blind guy, and spiky younger woman. You always see that happening, especially in Los Angeles. Yes. Thank you, Raya. They pull it like a fast one on Daryl,

where at first it seems like they're friends, but it turns out that they're foes. But the way that the young woman introduces herself to Daryl when she finds out he's American, is she goes, what's Crackin noob? And I was like, Would either of those phrases have made it to France without the internet?

Oh, well, they had the internet. But not when she was, like, she's got to be like 18, 20. So if the Walking Dead has been going on for like 11 years of pandemic, right? Then the internet would have ended in 2010. Was Nube a thing in 2010? Do you think she like archived some stuff before all went down? Right. So she has like, here's what I think.

She probably has a hard drive full of vines, like the best vines. like the best vines. Right. You know, and so she has learned English only through like the damn Daniel, you know, vine. Was Damn Daniel 2010?

Was that later? Wow. You want to? Let me Google Andy Greenwald, damn Daniel going viral. I'm just saying the Vine era. Yeah, I got it. It was just a note.

In French, it would be Venn, I think, you know? So maybe that would help you understand it. So I thought that this show was really cool. The very end of this episode, and we're still doing spoilers here, you basically get a side door like expansion of the Walking Dead universe where we find out that Darrell was on this boat. This boat was conducting, had a doctor on it that was conducting experiments, I think, on walkers, right? And Walker seemed to have changed. Some of them have burny skin now or blood.

Yeah, and that there seems to be this militaristic faction running this experiment and also seems to have quite a bit of power in France, and this woman, Jeanne, who... Marine Le Pen. Right. She is basically like, we got to go get this American guy. All this tracks with my understanding of France, by the way. Yeah, but it becomes like a different, a little bit of a different vibe at the end, right? It does, but also, then the, this season on Terrible name, by the way, Daryl Dixon, but that is his name.

I mean, you're also like, what, you're never in the dark about what you're watching. I respect that. Yeah. On the this season, look, trailers are trailers, but it looks super. super dope. They're going to go to Paris. I'm interested in that. I'm so much more interested in that than I am in the Swamps that side of Savannah at this point. That's great. Yes. I also think, and this might be, this might be us running out of content talking. No, it's not. This might be we're only getting started really when you think about it. I do. And I think about it a lot.

In a way, this relates to the next show we're going to talk about. But I feel weirdly better about this show than I do about some more ambitious, more pitched up prestige-type shows. I think that at this point, everyone involved in the Walking Dead franchise know what they're doing. They're always, and this is something that I wrote apparently a thousand times back when I was writing stuff. Like, because you have X number of knives going into X number of skulls, you can then play a little bit around the margins because you've delivered on your, you've delivered on your

on your campaign promises, basically. So the fact that this show just feels very comfortable with what it's doing, but is willing to be like, let's just see what'll happen here. I think it's David Zabel is the guy who created this. He's a veteran of ER. Yeah, and of TV shows that know how to do stuff over a long period of time.

Right. That makes me feel good about it. I have two notes I'd like to just share with you about the Walking Dead universe and even the one in France. Okay. One is that if I lived through a zombie epidemic that decimated civilization. Which during our Last of Us conversation, we established, you would.

You would not fucking catch me following a 10-year-old. Like, I'm not, there is no 10-year-old that is going to rise out of this and be like, oh, God, this guy is just JFK, just like obviously has it all together. He's the one who's going to lead us. So, because there was a moment in this episode where the, like, the militaristic brutes are at the door and the nuns are like, young lad, lock yourself in here, we will grab hellbirds and defend you with our lives. Yes.

In that moment, I think you would have looked around and had been like, who am I caping up for right now? Yeah. This is, why am I flexing for status and likes? Right. The world is over. Why can't I just hang out with French Holt-McCallony? These guys have cars.

Also, everything seems to be fine there. Like, the nuns are just doing it. Yeah, they got apples. Apples look delicious. Yeah, they're like, they're functioning medieval society there. So I would not follow a 10-year-old as my leader.

Or risk yourself for the 10-year-old. Would you do that in this reality? I mean, under certain circumstances. Certain 10-year-olds. Yeah. Crossed Chris off the babysitter list. To say is just that if I were to experience the fate of Papa

Jean, who's a Frère Jean? The Monsignor. The priest who they are keeping as a zombie in a cage just in case he gets his soul back. If I am like a zombie, you do not have to keep me alive hoping one day I will pot again. So you, I mean, there's a lot of ways to interpret this. So what you're saying is what I'm hearing, Kai, I just want this to the record,

that if we ever feel like you're just repeating yourself, lunging after easy targets, just for no reason should we just continue to let this. It's fine. last bit is just that if I were in charge of some province during this time period, I think I would have built Epcot Center by now. Like the zombies are just straight up not scary. And I know that's the whole point. The humans are scarier than the zombies at this point.

But these guys are literally like holding zombies at bay with like a stiff arm on a football field. And when they stab their brothers who are zombies, then they hold them tenderly for a minute, which I'm like, seems gross. Again, that's the only child talking. I don't really know. You know, maybe I'd make an exception for blood of my blood and all that. But, you know, so what I'm saying is that if I found that Bill and Sean were keeping you somewhere here on the Spotify campus. Just to do Wayne Jenkins' imitations?

And then I had to do your DNR orders and bayonet you to the head. I would probably not embrace you on the way down. But for what it's worth, I know this kind of like goes against the whole spirit of the Walking Dead. But from what I understand, we are now a decade into this. Anyone who survived is probably pretty good at surviving. It would make sense that they're not that scary. In a way, it's just like us with COVID, right? Look at us.

The real hero is just in-person recording, maskless. You know, because the monster is not as scary anymore. Right. Do you want to move on to The Changeling? Are you going to watch more of this show? Yes. I think that this would be a very fun plane show. like I might save a couple and watch it on the plane.

And I could also see if it just gets to too many characters or too complex or gets away from like, I want to see this guy walking around France hacking people up. That's my attraction. I want to see more of France.

I kind of want to watch more of it really is a companion piece to Last of Us because I'm curious about what differentiates them. Yeah, that's a good point. Which is, I'm not saying one's better than the other. I'm not trying to take shots at either show. I think they're doing very different things for different core constituencies,

but it's interesting to me. I think it's only six episodes. So if that's the case... Season one is only six episodes. Well, but it's still only six episodes. And if that's the case, then they have my attention. Do you know it would be cool? If Norman Reyes was like, I'll do this forever,

but every season of Daryl Dixon is in another place I want to ride my motorcycle. It would be rad. So it's just like the best of Bordane, but this guy's life, and he just... And each time he'd go into a different country, he just used the cast from the bridge. Well, you joke, but do you know who Norman Redis is married to in real life?

Who? Diane Krueger. Do you know what's starred Diane Krueger? Are they really married? Do you know what she was a star of? Inglorious bastards. The bridge. Yeah. So it all comes back to the bridge.

This episode is brought to you by the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small. So whether it's buying tickets at the game, or grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me, the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%er. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com forward slash active cash terms apply. Let's do The Changelang, because we're running a little long.

I think we're running a little long. I'm on strike. This is literally all I have to do today. Andy, the Changeling is on Apple TV, plus a few episodes have gone up. I think the first three have gone up and the fourth one comes out on Friday. It's based on a novel by Victor Leveldat. I had not have the privilege of reading. And it's developed, created, written by Kelly Marcell,

who's done some work in the 50 Shades of the 50 Shades franchise. She did the work. I think she did that movie. And as well as the venom, let there be carnage film, which I actually didn't mind. Chris, you're selling Kelly Short. She, to my knowledge, has written all three venom films, including the upcoming third film.

It is to the other venom films, what the part of Beetlejuice, and Bober didn't see is to the rest of of Beatlechuse. Rule of threes. Okay. So the first couple episodes are available. This is honestly, like, we had a lot of fun at the expense of describing

what Daryl Dixon is about. It would actually be quite challenging to explain what the changeling is about. And after watching one episode, while I have some ideas, one of the challenges of the first episode is that it is about quite a bit. You know, we have joked before about shows starting multiple times,

or episodes starting multiple times where you get five minutes into a story and they're like, but back in 1968, this has folklore, it has flashbacks, it has a contemporary story, contemporary-ish story,

and it is tonally, like I think it is gorgeously shot. Molina Mitsukas, who did Queen and Slim and a bunch of Beyonce videos and Rihanna videos and Insecure is an excellent director and the world is like fully realized

and it is beautiful to like, It is. Beautiful production design. But I think that it might be... I think I saw actually this was a line in the roger Ebert.com review of it that said that the material that the show was drawing from was too figurative to make a good TV show. And so what you wind up having is a kind of fairy tale,

fabulistic, allegorical feel to a show where you're just like, but I just need to like understand like where is this guy going and what is he doing and are they in love? Who is he? Yeah, right. It's a very odd show that has a lot of merit. And so I want to be careful using it as a launching pad for larger digressions or state of the union kind of commentary. My main response to watching the first episode of the show is I bet this book is really good. Genuinely. The ideas, the scope, the specificity of it seemed tactile and interesting and rich. It also felt like a book. And my main takeaway...

And it's narrated by Victor Lovell. This TV show is? Yeah, the TV show is... So obviously done somewhat hand in hand with him. So the show begins with a very, very CGI boat crossing in the 19th century. And then it jumps to more or less the present day. And then it jumps almost immediately before you catch your breath. To the 60s. Late 60s or 7.

Then it goes to the 70s. Then it goes to the 80s. Then there's some time back in the present. And then it's the 90s. And reader, my comment is relax. This was a stressful viewing experience because it was so eager to share with us the scope and the imaginative, just the imagination of Victor LaValle and his book and his characters

that I felt pummeled by it. Not for a moment did I feel any kinship, connection to, or interest in what was happening on our screen, which is challenging, which is hard to believe even, because the show stars Lakeith Stanfield, who I think is one of the best actors we have, who is never not interesting. He plays a character name Apollo Kagwa,

who I assume is some sort of book dealer. He's a rare book dealer. We don't ever really see him. Is that antiquarian? Work. We see him in a library and we see him say he loves books, but then we're also seeing him as a baby, and then we're seeing his parents,

and then we're in fucking Brazil. Yeah. So I don't know. He, in this first episode, falls in love with a librarian who's played by an actor, so I don't know a name Clark Baco, who I thought was really good too.

Then she goes to Brazil. Then there's a witch. Then his parents. And then there's a scary part. Then there's a dream. again, I'm trying to be measured because I think everyone here is doing high level work. But to me, this isn't a TV show in a time when I wish we had TV shows. There's a moment that we're in still.

And Apple's often really, I think, to blame for this, where it's like, no, we're going to dazzle you with ambition and prestige. Don't worry about any traditional kind of like weak to. week episode to episode connection to character or narrative. And you end up in this weirdly expensive, sloppy place to me that is not a book, it is not a TV show, and it's not a movie. It's just sort of this sprawl that's asking you to come be a part of the sprawl with us and see us take chances or don't. There's also, okay, there's two things going on here. One is that I think you could say apples to blame for it. I think they've also had some success when it comes to something like, say, Pachinko, where one of the reasons why Pachinko is a good comp.

really worked for me is because you could tell that the creators of the show understood that they needed to take some liberties with the structure of the story that was found in the book for the purpose of the show. So rather than going chronologically, you have a kind of parallel storylines happening in the TV show and that that way themes come out of it that you understand. But Pachinko, for the most part, is fairly realistic. in its depiction of, like, not I don't mean vivid, I just mean like,

there's a kind of realistic logic to what's happening in Pichinko. To have multiple storylines going that also have an almost dream logic, but also have an element where dreams are real, it works for features.

It works for David Lynch. It works for, you know, like Sam Ramey. You can have a kind of strangeness to a film, I think. I think it's much harder to pull off TV shows. Yes, I agree. I mean, Twin Peaks, I guess, would be an example of a show where that

did work, but at the core of Twin Peaks is basically a detective show. It's basically a procedural where a guy is trying to figure out who killed a woman. You know, this is kind of like, you're watching a scene in this first episode, for instance, where a lot of the sort of turn of the episode tinges around this woman comes back from Brazil and she has a red bracelet that's been given to heard by like a mystical medicine woman in a remote location in Brazil. It's a fable. It's like she's granted three wishes as long as she doesn't cut this ribbon off. Well, it's that if the wishes will come true when it gets cut off, sorry.

But be careful what you wish for is we're reminded of many times. And like that whole like section of the episode where like he's come and he's picked her up at the airport, they've reunited, they're kind of putting their relationship. ship back together and the Apollo character cuts the ribbon in this kind of like dreamy fashion. But like if you actually take a step within the logic of the show, it makes sense somewhat. But if you take any step back, you're like, what is what is happening? Like what does this mean? Why is this guy going along with this story all immediately?

And I guess it's like, well, you could say he's had himself this dreamy life where his father was a blue monster who disappears into bathtub steam and captures him. but that's just like a lot to kind of put your wrap your head around. I also, I do want to ask you, did you feel, for as much as that maybe pushed you out of a recognized reality, did you feel a kinship with Apollo because he wears a different hat for every moment of his life? Like he had a special wedding hat. Yeah.

I was thinking. I didn't wear a hat during my wedding. I was thinking that he didn't have a hat during the sex scene, but then I was like, maybe it's a Jimmy hat. But then they have a baby. So he is hat-free. He's hat-free. Which I thought was interesting.

Look, I don't know. It feels weird to argue. It feels like a conservative position to be arguing when I say that, like, successful TV shows do have a kind of nuts and bolts grounding. It doesn't mean it's grounded in our world, but it is grounded in a kind of emotional recognition or truth that allows you to then extrapolate further.

Twin Peaks are my favorite. thing of all time, but even I wouldn't argue that it worked when it became just a kind of more buy the book week-to-week, 22 episodes procedural. What really worked was David Lynch at the beginning and at the very end, including the third season. There's something, the Changeling isn't to blame for this. You're right. And Apple isn't to blame for this. And for decades of creators being stymied in TV being told, like, yeah, go for it, man. That is a good thing from a creative perspective, but I am so done with pilots that start three or four times. Pick your story and tell us your story. And if there's something that doesn't work in this

medium, maybe you're using the wrong medium to tell the story. It just, that seems really harsh or reductive, but that's kind of how I feel about it. I think it's also probably, you know, when we first started doing this podcast, a lot of shows would change over the course of their first season, if not their first couple of seasons, where you would get structural shifts. You would get tonal shifts, characters would kind of change their vibe. This happened a lot

in sitcoms, but it would also happen on shows where obviously the series had picked up popularity, so to sustain it, they would need to keep characters in a certain

tension point that was kind of betraying the resolution of the seasons. I'm thinking specifically of Homeland just because you mentioned it, but like Carrie in Homeland

is like a one or maybe two-season character, but they kind of kept her in this place of absolute frenzy for six, seven seasons. Or the show just became, is she on or off-meds? Yeah, right. And that's the toggle.

So they changed Homeland to make it last for a long time. We've talked before about some Mike Sher comedies that where they like make minor adjustments to the characters as they go forward in Parks and Rec or the office or whatever to like make them more palatable. Big prestigious literary adapted dramas on Apple TV Plus don't really seem to have that ability. They don't really seem to be able to turn the boat while it's in the canal. It's like we're going one way or we're going the other way.

But once it's off and left the pier, what can they do to the change lane to change it, right? Well, I mean, part of that is because it is greenlit as a thing. You know, there's no, I mean, I could be wrong. We've certainly been wrong before. But my sense is this isn't a two-season show. Like, they're telling the story of the book. But I think it's just a question of getting, your arms around it, like, and one of the things about Apple that makes it very unique and special

is that these sort of questions don't really apply to them. Like, if you can say yes to everything, you don't look with the same rigor about why you're doing the things that you're choosing to do. You know, again, empowering Lekees Stanfield, empowering Molina Mansuchas, like, these are good decisions. I'm not going to second guess these decisions. And if this show didn't work for me, their next show, whether it's together or separate, might. So I don't, broadly, the conversation could stop there. But if it didn't stop there, I would say that, like, they can just shrug and say, seems like these guys have a take on this. Let's go, go, go. Instead of saying, we're only going to make two things this year. And your vision of the changeling, well, deeply exciting, I'm struggling

seeing how this is going to translate or how you're going to adapt it or how you're going to get your arms around all of it in a way that is going to be narratively successful. I mean, it's, it's, but then again, you know, one person's one person's messy is another person's adventurous and exciting. But the other thing I'll bring to it, and this is again, this is, I feel like I'm using a lot of unfair comparisons, but in the spirit of like,

well, Daryl Dixon is not, there's no world where Walking Dead Daryl Dixon is an Emmy-winning, life-changing show. Maybe there's a world where the changeling, maybe even in subsequent episodes, could become that. Yeah. So it is tough to compare one to the other, but let me throw a third thing into the mix.

Like you know this, Chris and Kaya knows this, but like I was for another thing that we'll talk about at another point, I was rewatching some of Friday Night Lights. And that pilot, we used to make things in America, buddy. Jesus Christ. You know, the, I don't know when the last time anybody watched it was, but the opening four and a half minutes through the news voiceover introduces us to an entire city, an entire vibe,

an entire community culture. and the very intense specifics of our main character's lives. Like, we meet Saracen making tuna fish sandwiches for his grandmother within like 90 seconds. Yeah. We're going. Yeah. We're going. Changelang isn't Friday Night Lights.

It shouldn't be, but we don't make Friday Night Lights anymore. We just make these big shrugs and sometimes they work. And that doesn't seem like a sustainable model, not just for the business financially, but like just for the viewer. Sure. That's my platform. I'm here today, unfortunately, to announce that I will no longer be serving as your senator from Utah. But I will be watching Friday. But I will be watching the things that I always liked.

Do you want to talk about reservation dogs? Or do you want to talk about the... Let's punt reservation dogs. We have another episode to pair with it. I think that's good. It was a charming episode. Our boy, Kirk Fox bawled out. Yeah.

I feel like if we're talking about what Apple TV does with selling books, I feel like you want to talk about your show of 20. you want to talk about it. And then I need to tell you something. Oh, okay. So when Andy walked in today, he was just like, is it Lessons in Chemistry? Lessons and Chemistry is a new Apple TV show. It's coming out next month.

It stars Brie Larson. It's based on a bestselling book by Bonnie Garmus. And it's the trailer looks like more than a million bucks. It also, to me... Who made the show? Like, who's behind it? Lee Eisenberg developed it. It's based, as I said, it's based on the novel.

And Sarah Adina Smith directed a bunch of the... episodes. She's really talented. My guy, Zach Galler, was DP for a bunch of the episodes. You watch this trailer and I'm like, ah, proof of concept for Apple. This is what they want in the sense. And that's not even a comment on quality, although I'm hopeful that it has quality and abundance. But best-selling novel looks great, movie star, and is about like, again, like, I don't think chat GPT had anything to do with the show. But if you were like, hey, Open AI. What is a successful Apple TV Plus show? It might be like a period piece about a chemist, an on-the-spectrum chemist stymied by the patriarchy who finds surprise success as a television chef and also civil rights. I mean, it's a lot. But anyway, I came in and I was like, it looks really good. And I was like, here's a hot tip from inside Holly Weird. You know who's going to be a star off this show? I don't know if you heard of this guy. This cat called Lewis Pullman.

And I was like, he looks like amazing. He looks like an incredible. So do you know what Lewis Pullman has been in besides lessons in chemistry? Top Gun, Maverick. He's great in Outer Range. He's also been in Pullman family photos with his father, beloved actor Bill Pullman. Yeah, he's very good, as I recognized when he was on Outer Range and he came on the watch. See, this was the tough beat for me.

Did he come into the studio? No, it was during COVID, and I think we did it on Zoom. I think I thought you had Josh Brolin on. If I had Josh Brolin on, I wouldn't have let you forget it. That's true. You wouldn't have, like, listeners forget it. So how was he talking to you? He was great. It was great. So you've been holding, because when you, so Chris made a face when I made this comment.

His part in outer range is not as big as I was hoping it was going to be, like, over the course of the season. But he was very good in Outer Range and you can, you recognize, like, I think the same thing that you're seeing in the trailer and that you have like a vibe from and that he was. really good in Top Gun. He's got, he'll be like the next Glenn Powell. He has like a thing. Wow. Could he be the next Glenn? Sorry.

Well, Plum Powell might be like a fucking best actor nominee if like no other movies come out. I think Len Powell is awesome. I just thought that unintentionally that was an indictment of where we are in movies. But he could be the next guy up to maybe be the next guy. Yeah. I think that he could be like a leading actor soon. Do you think he has Bonvoy points? For what if he quits acting in protection?

from what Delta has done to their loyal customer. For what? Look. I think he could be the next Daryl Dixon. I just want to say, like, when I came in real hot with this Lessons in Chemistry trailer, and you made a face about Lewis Pullman, never did I guess that he had been on,

because he wasn't on the Andy Greenwald podcast. No, he was saying he was on the Watch podcast, the one we do together. I didn't know about that. But what I thought your face was, as I was like, oh, here we go. This is another, I guess Lewis Pullman is the next in the long line

of Ron Eldard, Aaron Eckhart All-Stars of like blonde guys that Chris just like buys early stock in. Who I'm just like, yeah, keep an eye on. I don't know why you keep saying Ron Eldard though. I never was like a Ron Eldard guy. Because I mix him up with Aaron Eckhart.

You were like the Phillies amateur scouting department between 1999 and 2019 where they were like, this guy started playing baseball six weeks ago, but he's rangy. He's six foot. Gary's big lumber. This kid is six foot.

15 and could probably mash some taters if he ever learned to hit a change job to stand up. Like, they would just draft people who just looked like they should be baseball players. And that's what you do with movie stars. I'm interested in the show. I support Lewis Pullman and all his endeavors. How do you feel like the Ron Eldard community is going to react to this slander by you? I think they thought. No, I just think that you make that joke once every like 14 months. Yeah, I do.

And I, every time I'm like, I never like, put. any money on Ron Eldard? You didn't put any like slander on his name. No, but I never was like this guy is this dude is going to be the dude. I would say looking at his resume, I'll respect Ron Eldard, like

there hasn't been a lot in the last few years that would have caused you to say that. I'm sorry. He's a working actor. That's I respect that. We've slandered Ron Eldard. I guess that's the signal that we should go. I'm really worried now considering what happened when we talked about suits. that like later...

Ron Eldard is going to go on Instagram live and just be like, fuck. Because he's just living his life. He didn't need a fucking drive-by. By you. By both of us equally. You were the...

All I said is that I never have like a picture of Ron Eldart up in my office, you know? Kai, please just only put that clip in the podcast. Whereas I have Lewis Pullman wallpaper and you're like, have you seen this young despian? And I don't know what connections. Diaz, but he's getting good roles, and he looks like a name and face to watch.

I think that people trust my ignorance is so profound at this point that when I notice it, it's significant. I look forward to the time nine months from now when you're like, have you guys seen the show The Lioness? Boy, oh boy. Thrill ride. That'll be me. That'll be me.

Did you see that in his lonely bachelor pad near Capitol Hill, Mitt Romney was just Power watching Better Call Saul? Yeah, but he was reading briefings while watching it. That's tough. I don't think, as you and I know, you really have to pay attention to Better Call Saul. But he also watches Ted Lasso, so maybe he was reading the briefings during that.

That's a less demanding watch. I think that that might improve Ted Lasso's last season. Do you think that if Mitt Romney would be like... If Mitt Romney watched Lioness, would he stay in Congress? Because he'd be so psyched. So psyched. To be like...

To be a part of the winning team. So you're like, actually, this government is sick. Yeah. He'd be like rocking a turnover chain. That's what I think. Yeah. That's what I think. Thanks to Kai for producing us today. I wonder what she thought of this episode.

I can't, Kai, can we have like a long after action today? Because I feel like. And thanks to you for coming by. Monday. I don't know. I think we're just going to talk about it. Oh, winning time, right? Yeah, but also the gold is a show you're interested in.

Yes. Watch the gold. You're into it. You've already watched it. I've only heard about it. Special ops the gold. No, it's just about Jack Loudon stealing gold in 80s London. That sounds great.

What's it on Paramount? Paramount Plus. Okay. I'll watch it. Okay, so the gold and winning time for Monday, maybe some reservation dogs next week. We'll be back. I hope everybody has a great weekend. I really hope.

Especially you run, Elder.