The Watch - ‘Succession’ S3E9: “All the Bells Say”

Episode Date: December 13, 2021

Chris and Andy break down the season finale of ‘Succession.’ They talk about the reveal that Kendall lived and how that affected their feelings about the show (1:00), the Roy kids finally banding together only to not get what they want (20:35), and where the show goes from here (39:41). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me on the other line, also known as Hans Christian Ander Fuck. It's Andy Greenwald. That was your intro. I know. You kind of stole my thunder. Andy, what's up, man? It's our postseason finale succession podcast.

We've come to the end of the road. All roads lead to Tuscany or this gorgeous Italian village. Is it not Tuscany? Is that what you're going to correct me? It's Tuscany. No, I was just going to say there are some connective waterways that might take you to in and out of Swiss territory. Yeah. So I'm just saying it's not like we're stranded there.

There's decent Wi-Fi. I don't know what Jesse Armstrong as a Brit, you know, and they're on the outside looking in in Europe now, but he seems to be collapsing some space here in the season finale where I'm like, okay, so we're in Switzerland, but now we're in Italy, but now we're... Call Michael Mann. Those are the real go-fast boats. So there's two directions to go in here. There is the very end of the episode, which is what I will, from now on, be referring to as the Tom father.

And then there is the opening of the episode, which answers all the questions that we've been asking one another for about six and a half days about Kendall. We can go in either direction or we can start generally speaking about how you felt about the episode. It's dealer's choice.

I know the answer. Also, you're the dealer. That's true. So it's your choice. I expert at gambling. We're going to start at the beginning. Okay. And here's what I want to say.

guys, we got to pay attention to the shows we're watching. Three seasons in, shows tell us what they are. And like the great Michelle Obama said, when people tell you who they are, listen to them. You know what I mean? Look, we all had a lot of fun. You know what I mean? Over the last week, it was all screens and up the ass in Logan's words.

It was like the old glory days, a prestige TV on the Internet, and we all had a great time. speculating, having fun, sifting through the metadata, as they would say in the Gojo C-suite, right, about like when the New Yorker drops profiles of Jeremy Strong and the HBO marketing team, you know, making sure we don't have screeners and the person who found the poem that linked to the three-season finale titles. Oh, my God. Yeah.

That was awesome. Great. What a positive place to Reddit is, you know? Just like incredible scholarship. In my experience, it's mostly about British poetry. so I don't see the problem. But, and by the way, it went fast. Like, I'll say that, you know, we are veterans of the six days between wars that used to erupt

during Breaking Bad episodes or Game of Thrones seasons, et cetera, et cetera. In retrospect, I mean, if you can be in retrospect for the last six, seven days, the speed with which the succession discourse went from, hmm, that was kind of a moody ending to an episode. I think I'll go have a snack to, he is a core. Corpse floating in Italy and how does one have a... How does one get a body back to Newark International? Yeah.

Right? That was wild. And I think that it might be... I'm very interested to see... We're recording this immediately after watching the episode at 7 p.m. on the West Coast. But I'm very interested to see what the discourse is because I think that some of the audience members, they were expecting a scalp. They were expecting a body.

You can call you... You're looking right at me. call me by my name. You want me to at you? Yeah, just at me. I was like, that dude is dead. I was like, this 100% like this is a perfect ending

for this character. I wasn't doing it because I was bloodthirsty. I wasn't doing it because I was like, he's Rob Stark. I was doing it because I was like they ended the character.

He has tried multiple times. He had the final conversation. He can't get free. His guilt will kill him. They ended that version of the character. Now, I do think there's a fun case to be made.

if we go back through some of the episodes, like, yeah, in a way, Kendall did die in that episode, or at least that version of him, and we'll see what emerges going forward. There were certainly some interesting tectonic shifts in this episode. But look, I mean, this is the show. This is what it has been in ways large and small. The narrative engine of succession has always been about the moth circling the flame, and they keep circling, and they keep circling, and they keep circling. The show does not give you the scalps.

this is the closest it's going to get to the red wedding. And there's a case to be made that this was the red wedding for the Roy family. And, you know, we're definitely going to get to it. But succession doesn't give you bodies on the floor. It gives you bore on the floor. Sure. You know, and I'll say that for, are there legitimate frustrations to be voiced about some of the characterizations, you know, circling, like, is there a hope for Kendall?

Is there a plan? Is there a different version of him that we're going to see, et cetera, et cetera. but I came out of watching this episode and I thought this was an excellent rip-roaring, good time, great entertaining succession episode that took the show to a place that I'm very excited to see going forward.

But my first reaction is, I'm really glad to be in the hands of a showrunner who is very confident in the show. He is interested in making and continues to make it. Now, it's not like he was bowing to pressure. He wrote these scripts two years ago and they shot this months ago. So it's not like he was sweating

what the internet reaction was going to be or what Red Meat, the HBO marketing team, through everyone in terms of what there was going to be. He can't control that reaction. But I was pleased that the show didn't deviate because this is the show that I like and I enjoyed it. Yeah. Look, in no way am I holding any of the close magic going on that they did in between the end of the last episode and the beginning of this episode against anybody. Like, I'm not even holding it against HBO or anything like that. It's not like I felt duped.

as the week went on, I was probably more along the lines of what you're saying, like, where I was like, I was pretty convinced on last Sunday show that he had died. I was actually think that the reason why I was convinced was not because I did any, like, hard work on piecing together all the reasons why that was going to be in terms of like whether or not he appears at the wedding or not. It was really just because dramatically and narratively, it felt like a genuinely surprising, somehow fitting end to that character. not that I was cheering for that. And then as the week went on, I think I was a little bit more and more, like, wait a second. You know, like, and I think that I think I talked myself out of it by the time. So that when I turned on the episode tonight and about 30, 40 seconds in, Logan is sitting with Iverson and reading him the children's book. And he just says, you know, he's going to be okay or whatever.

And it becomes quickly apparent that not only is he lived through this possible suicide attempt, possible just passing out in a pool. But that he is kind of now, you know, in the opening stages of this episode, reverts back to form. You know what I mean? He has like a shaky point where he's drinking the Italian Gatorade, but then kind of comes in and he's like, I'm putting my entire, all my papers up on Instagram.

And you're like, oh, they're back. Is that what it's called? What's that? Gatorade. Yeah. That's right. Great stuff. Limoncello flavored. And I think that until that scene, the confession scene. There was like, I basically,

I was like, I kind of wish that that they had gone through with it if that had been in play. I wonder whether it ever was. I wonder how sincerely that it was being kicked around whether or not that should be the end of the character. And then you get to the confession scene,

which is basically shot like an Antonioni movie in this like abandoned part of a village. Back by the trash. Yeah, wide shots of, um, of the three siblings standing outside of these, these buildings and Kendall watching people doing the job, like the kind of jobs of the person that he allowed to die or killed or however you want to view it. And I just thought it was so

amazing to watch in real time, not only just a phenomenal piece of dramatic writing, comic writing, and performing, but the actual philosophical debate set up in the New Yorker profile about Jeremy Strong about is the show? Is this show a tragedy or is this show a comedy? And it's both. But to watch it be both in the most extreme ways at the same time and watch Jeremy Strong pretty much go fucking full dog day afternoon and just win another Emmy sitting there on the ground. Yep. And Kieran Colkin, who's probably the real MVP of this season, insisting on, and I'm sure, you know, obviously following the script, but that character and that performance insisting on, no, I'm going to keep making jokes about how

bad the service was at Shiv's wedding because Kendall killed a waiter. And joke, joke, joke, up until the very last second and then like right when there's a rip cord being pulled, Shiv's like, well, we got to go. It's back to business. So I thought that that was just an amazing scene and it said a lot about succession. I couldn't agree more. Let's start with that scene. It was an amazing scene. It was beautifully composed. It was beautifully shot. It was dramatic. It was emotional. Have you seen this scene? Beautiful scene. Amazing. Wonderful. Wonderful. Can I interest you in a trip to Italy? They take their trash out on Wednesdays during the wedding.

It's amazing. Lovely properties in Italy. It was worth it. We earned that scene. And watching it, here was my thought. I'm really glad Jeremy Strong's on this show. I'm really glad he's staying on the show. I'm really glad that whatever process he has to go through to get to a place, whether it's as wonderful,

as Jessica Chastain tweets that it is, or whether it is as challenging to be around as some of the subtext in the New Yorker article seemed to suggest that it was. Not my business. I don't work on that show. You know what I mean? I don't have to AD those scenes.

I don't know. I'm not in the makeup trailer trying to make sure people don't cross paths. Who cares? It is a gift to see him act and play this character, and I'm thrilled that he'll get to do it for a longer time. And let's also continue to praise Jesse Armstrong and his writers and Mark Mila, the director, because they run right at the issues that could be considered problems. The fact that Jeremy Strong and Kieran Culkin are giving

performances that at times could potentially be in completely other shows. Yeah, they're in, right. And they are alone together. And each of them finds the other's companionship in that moment excruciating, not the actors, the characters. The actors too? Who knows? Not our business. It doesn't matter. They are harnessing the producers and writers the inherent tension in their acting styles and making the show better because of it. And that is what the show does best. And it's that level of yeah, we're talking about the content that we're seeing, great scene, crackling scene, agonizing scene, but we're also talking about how smart everyone is structurally, managerially to allow that to happen. And I loved it. And circling back to the first point, you know, I think one of the reasons why

succession might frustrate some people. And I think that it's clear that this season frustrated more people than it has in the past. Part of that just might be a factor of it's more popular than it was in the past. Part of that might be a factor of the pandemic delay, as we talked about in the weeks leading up to the season three premiere, boosted the show's profile and its importance to a really, really wild degree, potentially even untenable degree of just almost like the show itself as a celebrity and everyone's talking about and thinking about it. So I think there was a little bit of a potential misconnection or lack of connection between the audience and what the show is. But one thing that is invariably true is that we look to scripted entertainment and fiction to go there, to show

us the big things that we don't often see in our lives, you know, whether they're like Godzilla's attacking cities or, you know, knights in armor cursing and killing dragons or selling meth or all these things. Or some of a cathartically unburdening themselves of the biggest secret in their life. Well, that's what I want to get to, though. I think the thing that Succession does very well that might confound some viewer expectations, and I don't even mean some viewers in the like the famous Emily Nussbaum and the New Yorker talking about Breaking Bads, quote, bad fans, the ones who wanted Walter to win or wanted Tony Soprano to whack more people. I don't, I don't mean that. I just mean that we are conditioned and sometimes with good reason, because we

like watching people know kung fu in movies, to expect to see dramatic, um, the most dramatic exclamation point underlined version of a story. But in life, the most catastrophic thing, even if that's what we expect or live our lives in fear, rarely happens. What often happens is people are pushed to a bottom that they think is the bottom or a brink that they think is their limit, and then they have to go have breakfast the next morning with the people who saw them do it. And that provides its own kind of drama. And it's a smaller bore, you know, certainly very uncomfortable drama. But in that way, Succession is mirroring the kind of emotional frustrations of our lives, even whether we are super rich or decidedly in our case, in most listeners' case, not. And I'm always

grateful for that. Honestly, I'm grateful for the fact that you are correct. As a dramatic character, Kendall Roy is done. He's used up. He's tossed away. He's cellophane rapper. He's done. But life doesn't work like that. He's just still hang dogging around, man. And what did it get us in this episode? It got us a pretty raw unburdening, a catharsis. And the power of that moment when you're just like, the most powerful line to me is when he said, it's so fucking lonely.

Yeah. He's so alone and they all are. Every line he had in that speech was pretty heartbreaking. And then you juxtapose it with the fact that his siblings won't give him anything back in return. Shib's obviously very comforting, but is immediately beckoned away by a phone call. And Roman is doing the fascists are cool, but not thing,

but about this kid's life, where he's just like, well, you tried. I would have been out of there like a tabby in the bath, you know, and you're practically a hero. And like, who hasn't killed a kid? And all this, like, he's basically doing his version of saying, you're going to be okay.

And I thought that that was like, it's basically, I know that you and I can sometimes, get a little bit immersed in the like the sort of like, what does this mean as TV? TV. But, you know, Kendall using one of the most used tropes in TV anti-herodom, which is I'm a bad person.

You know, this kind of self-awareness to be like, I am not the hero here, usually comes with that character doing something very heroic or trying to solve themselves of all the sins that they've committed. And because this isn't low winter sun, my perpetual, I'm not a bad man punching bag,

which no one cares about anymore. AMC canceled it years ago. So apologies to all involved. Everyone did their best. It's TV. It's hard. Roman's response is kind of the right one. Nobody's anything.

Everybody's, in a way, I mean, this is what's so crazy and great about the show when he's like, we've all killed a kid. I mean, no, we haven't. But in the most 100,000 foot macro version of talking to someone, who is just buried alive in a shame spiral. Yeah, we've all done terrible. We are all terrible. It's not one or the other,

and he seems to think that it is. And one of the reasons why I think this episode was super significant in the life cycle of the show, I mean, all season finalities are overly significant, but one of the reasons why I think this is, it's not just because it definitively declared to the world what the show is, and I think people will listen now, you know, what it's going to be about

and what it's interested in doing, was that it really drew a bright line around something that I think the show has always animated the show, which is what is the fundamental difference between family or emotional relationships like family and business? And there are many differences, and one of them might be what Roman, you know, insanely and blindly and optimistically calls love. But really what I think the show has demonstrated is that what family allows or encourages is repeated, not just bad behavior, but repeatedly running at something, like Charlie Brown in the football,

because the disappointment you feel when you don't get what you want from someone, when there's a mismatch, that familiarity is at least reassuring. Sure. At least you know you're going to be disappointed. At least you know, you're going to get the, the Shiven Romm just kept touching his head. They're like, this is what humans do.

They touch heads to make you feel better. No, they don't. I'm performing love here, yeah, right. Yes, and what business is, ultimately, is fucking just raw fanged capitalism. This is works. This doesn't work. Fuck off. They're right.

And the power to me of where the episode ended and where I know we're all over the place, we should tick-tock through it. And I don't mean do a funny dance in 45 seconds. I believe that's what that means. Is that at the end, they're just scrabbling kids. They're pathetic. And Logan's right. And Jerry's right.

that is what they should do. It's a good deal. What do you think of the of, so one of the things that was so powerful about episode eight and it's not that this, it's not that the achievements of episode eight are in any way negated

by what happens in episode nine. But what do you think about how, for instance, the end of episode eight were at least led to believe or put in the headspace that, um,

Shiv blows up Roman to kind of seize her own role there. Uh, Romans in trouble. but at least is now diminished in his father's eyes. And they basically ostracized Jerry immediately and Shiv does that whole thing about

like, you know, would you like to make a formal complaint? And it seems almost like Jerry is walking out with a cardboard box of their belongings. I mean, she isn't literally doing that, but figuratively, it's like she's walking down that hallway. She has been kind of shut out. And then she's just in, you know, she's just playing monopoly or she's right by the table

while they're playing monopoly in the second scene of the next episode. Do you find that there... Do you find that the cause and effect chain in this season or in this episode necessarily, was it all broken? Or am I just... And I'm really asking,

because I'm curious what your take was or whether I'm watching this a little bit too much like it's Columbo or something. Yeah, I mean, I think that without question, there is an element of episodic television that play in the way succession breaks a season, right? Like those are dramatic moments.

And then, like the raid, the raid on the office, that was a dramatic place to end an episode earlier this season. Did it have consequences? Not really. But, you know, it is a, I think they're probably past studio and network notes at this point. But that is the stuff that you get in notes being like, can we have a punchier act out? And it's really, and when you get notes like that, it's really, especially for the weekly model. I'm actually for all models, because the binge model is he just needs to get them to keep watching immediately. it's just how can we keep it going.

It's a problem you'll solve the next day. In terms of how I reacted to it structurally and as a fan of the show and of the season, it didn't bother me because what this episode revealed really plainly, and I think it's something people have been chirping about occasionally in the margins, which is these kids are bad at this. Like they're being indulged, you know? And I think that what this episode made plain,

and I love the way it happened, where they're all at the wedding, and suddenly they realize they are completely not in the parlance of the show. They're not in the inside track. Yeah, they're not inside the deal. Nor should they be. They are, in Logan's words, fucking pedestrians. And he was wasting time playing little power games because that's what gets him off with

them up to this point. But we are, again, we are not inside of Logan at all anymore this season. And I wonder if that will change next season. I'd be interested in that. But one thing that I think it would be possible to watch this season, do a Logan rewatch of the season. Do your best to see his eyes. and what he's seeing.

And I think you could make the case that what the season was about was the domino's falling, that each one of his children disappointed him so profoundly and finally that what else was he going to do? He gave them rope and they used it

to give each other rat tails. There is no logical version of this where they deserve anything more than what they've gotten from a financial standpoint. It's not a rooting interest kind of thing. And, you know, it's interesting that you mentioned

doing a Brian Cox local rewatch of the season because I think it would be educational to do the same for Matthew McFadion and Tom, you know, like, yes. And watching his, you know, obviously this, this episode was a matter somewhat of opportunity, but I think that he had been very open to that opportunity for at least the duration of his time in Italy after the sex dirty talk and the agonizing frozen embryo speech. and I think that, you know, there had been some speculation like Tom's wearing a wire or Tom's going to do this or Tom's going to do that. So it wasn't out of nowhere. And I think that as that episode kind of plays out and when Tom gets that phone call from Shiv and she's just like, sure, you're high, but like I have other fucking things to talk about. Yep. That's where the knife goes in. And then on a wider scale, if you look at it in the totality of all succession episodes, what does Logan respond to? He responds to killers. Yeah. And Tom has all. already thrown himself on the funeral pyre once when he goes up to Logan and says, like,

if you need a head, you know, if you need a skull, take mine. And then he says, how about I betray your daughter? Who's trying to betray you? And he was like, well, nothing would make me happier then. One of the kind of brilliant judo moves of this season was that we were so inside the kids that we lost sight of the larger game. And I think that was very, very, very much intentional. If you think about it, the characters who are at the top at the end of this season, Logan, Tom, Jerry, Greg.

Greg's about to be the king of Luxembourg. Greg is the king. He's going to be king of the defunct throne of Italy. I mean, not bad if her come up. One thing that those characters have in common is that when people say things to them, they listen. Yeah. They listen. And they adjust accordingly.

one thing that unites all four Roy children is they don't listen at all and they don't learn at all and I think there's a case to be made maybe not in an immediate reaction podcast but in a longer think piece I mean these kids are abused now that's a very heavy word

and they are incredibly rich and privileged and I'm not interested in opening up that particular can of worms but in terms of how they respond to things they just got decapitated by their parents yes they're abused yeah they're abused And the way they speak to each other, you know, the circular language, the circular firing squad, like, and none of it matters. They're playing monopoly again the next day because they're playing, right? None of it matters.

None of it means anything because they believe, shockingly, up until the very last moment that their position is secure, that they're special, that they're, you know, or something. they're not. They're playing a game that is not the same game the other people who have had other life experience or who have struggled or who understand what's actually going on is playing. And they're all, they all lose. Yeah. And, you know, this is another moment of tipping of the cap, even though you're the only one wearing a hat tonight. Like, for a moment like that to land, for the emotion that Sarah Snook is playing in that moment and what Kieran Culkin is doing and how Jeremy strong is like almost blanked out like he's already played this movie in his head. He's become like a

Buddhist monk in this. Yeah, he's just like I'm like almost beyond like emotional reaction to these situations. He understands failure from the inside in a different way now. But for that to be an empathetic moment, to be an emotional gut punch for the audience, that's, that's some high level storytelling jiu-jitsu there. That's pretty impressive. And it feels right. That is right. Yeah. The most succession moment of the entire night, or the entire season maybe, is the fact that there's a moment right before the very last shot where it actually almost is the end of the godfather. You know, Tom's outside, Logan pats him on the back, and you see him through the door frame, and you're almost like, holy shit, are they going to close the door on the kids?

Because that would be fucking, that's how the godfather ends. And what happens is even more breathtaking in some ways, because Tom goes in and kisses his wife on the top of the head and is kind of like, what's wrong? Like, what's up? He is finally on the other side of it. He is now a killer. And he is doing what has been modeled for him. He is performing a marriage,

which is what Shiv's been doing from the beginning. But now, all pieces of old-fashioned, Midwestern human thinking are- She was ready to sell him into prison, you know. Yes. And, you know, make these sort of gestures towards, sure, yeah, when you get out, when you get out. But in the meantime, was planning for her own future.

Yeah, he absolutely did exactly to Shiv what Shiv had done to him, for sure. And I think it's, I'm glad you mentioned that before, that there was, again, it's like just trying to focus on, like, the show tells you what it is, especially after at least one season. And it tells you how to watch it. And Tom's emotional state,

not just the precarity of his professional or, you know, his carcernal status. right was very important this season it was very important this season but this isn't mayor of kingstown he's not wearing a wire what he's doing is listening should we do so we just do mayor kingston pod now every sunday night going forward during the holidays starting 750 p.m. Sunday PST I think this is for the best um this is how that plays out so people were picking up the radio signals right but kind of forgetting a kind of forgetting a kind of getting what the show is, I think, but also B, we're not, and we shouldn't be, thinking on the

creative level of the people in charge of the show. Just to pause to say that, we didn't know what was going to happen this episode. No one, I think, correctly predicted what was going to happen this episode. That's a good thing. We're not chumps. We're not suckers. People watching the show who thought one thing was going to happen for sure. Relax, man. Go into it. Be like Roman on that speedboat racing him back to his mom's second or third or whatever wedding. You know what I mean? Drum on the roof and let the wind go through your hair. This is what we watch it for.

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What are we even fighting for anymore? Because like the win, you know, he's like you fucking pedestrians and he basically gets Peter Munion into the House of Lords or the House of Commons or something and so Caroline re-does her divorce on the fly

giving Logan control of the holding company but that's not his company anymore. You know, like this, I think it would be amazing if they're able to find time for Alexander Scarsgard to continue to be on this show because

he is, I'm sure. He really brings a cool energy and a different energy and I thought his scene with Logan was awesome, you know, but I don't, you know, it'll be incredibly interesting going forward. It's like, if you're the kids, it's like, okay, so we lost, what, nothing? Like, we lost being part of this thing that we were eventually going to get cut out of anyway.

Yeah. And so what's next season? Is Roman working at Sabaro? Like, is it just pick up six months later? Yeah, that's right. They're doing like the office style confessional interviews from their new lives and being like, yeah, this is fine. This is fine.

Look, I think that for as much as we talk about how Jesse Armstrong is not a conventional TV thinker or plotter, at least not in terms of the American heavy lift drama that we've experienced over the last few decades, he does subscribe to the push all your chips into the table at the end of the season. Like that is absolutely something he believes in. He's now three for three on kind of devastating status quo altering final, not just episodes, final moments, right? That's their problem, and I'm thrilled. They're going to have to figure this out what it's going to be going forward. I think that this makes a lot of sense.

Look, it answers a lot of the questions that people were asking. One of the reasons, us included, were like, well, Kendall might die because, as he said, he might be done in terms of what you can do with his character going forward in the current setup. Late breaking at the end of the week, I was talking to people who weren't just galaxy braining it, made a very strong case that actually the Kendall stuff was a misdirect. Logan was going to die. This was going to be Brian Cox's last episode. because if you think about it. Where did you hear that? I mean, you don't have to say it was from any particular.

But you had conversations like that? A particular, and I'll ask permission for Thursday show, if I can name a particular Emmy Award-winning showrunner was like, this is what's going to happen. David E. Kelly told you that? David, the ghost of Stephen Botchko visited me. Basically, with a really smart point of a point, which is basically like, yeah, think about it.

We're all saying Kendall is in this, person's term, arced out, like, what else is there to do? But really, Logan is. Because what other moves is Logan have? And we've also, this season, completely retreated from his POV. So that all makes sense. I think that this is the right move for this show, because it pulls the ground out from everybody. It makes them run in an interesting way. The one reason we maybe should have seen it coming is this show is completely fictional, although sometimes it's horrifyingly close to home on both emotional and geopolitical, on an emotional and geopolitical level. And I don't know all. the details of how this went down, but Rupert Murdoch sold his shit to Disney. Yeah. You know what I mean?

He was just like, this is the right deal for the right moment. We can't do that and I don't want to do it anymore. So I know that my sons have been, you know, tap dancing like Michigan J. Frog for the last 30 years, but nah, this is, this is right. This is right. I can, you know, I don't, I actually, I mean, literally, I know nothing about James and Lachlan Murdoch and their psychology is in their relationship with their father or whatever. but I do know that Rupert Murdoch was more comfortable sitting in a room with Bob Eiger and getting this shit done than he was just kind of like passing the buck to his children. And that was what that moment with Scarsguard was.

And I think that, again, I don't know the casting decisions, but it feels like Scarsguard is main cast next season on this show. Also fun, by the way, that we spent a bunch of time in the offseason and season being like, you know, Sanalathan and Adrian Brody, et cetera, et cetera. Peter Rieger, some of us were excited about that. And they didn't all pop. Some were kind of like vanity, one episode turns. They could all come back in the Succession Expanded Universe.

They might come back. But one of them was going to stick. And I think that's, I think to your point, yeah, they picked the right one. It's very decentering and kind of discomforting in a great way for the characters. And I think that's for the drama. Speaking of sticking. Yeah. Let me pitch you on season four succession.

Yeah, man. Flash forward 25 years. Yes. And Logan Roy's Maka route has graduated college. Incredible. He's ready to take over his shares of Gojo. Scars Gar, Lucas is living in the cloud. He's been digitized into AI.

He's just a pure NFT. It's dev season two. And Kendall is now, Jeremy Strong is like, I'll come back and play Kendall if I get to go like full Johnny Knoxville and Jackass at the guy at the gas station. like all old man makeup. Oh my God, he would do it. I mean, the New Yorker did mention that as Kendall,

he dyes his graying hair, right? So I feel like he just wants to let it go. Let it be natural, man. Yeah, I'm, I'm in on that. I'm not really sure, speaking of his method acting. And I'm sure I'm probably wrong. And I'm also about 10 years out of practice myself.

But he did not look like a very natural smoker. Sparking up that American spirit. I thought it was like an awkward. first puff, you know? I wondered about that, actually, because I was watching it being like... And thank God, because I'd like him to be as healthy as possible and everything. I'm just saying. At that moment, as a non-smoker, I didn't critique the style.

I actually was like, I bet Jeremy Strong started smoking American spirits six months prior to this when he got the scripts the first time before COVID shut it down. Yeah, just for that moment. So you had it accurately. You mentioned the Maka, the... whatever it is, the root. Smashing walnuts, yeah. He's smashing walnuts for the siege.

That was such a, it was very funny, but it was also part and parcel of the larger momentum of the episode, which was to, I mean, this is a term that the episode uses so well, to completely, not just destabilized, but eradicate the children's position. Because, again, the show has kind of smartly adopted their POVs a bunch where we're like, well, Kendall's more complicated than he seems, and maybe his heart in the right place, is in the right place. Or Roman seems like a fuck up, but boy, he certainly knows how to turn on the bigot spigot.

And we like Shiv because we like Shiv, and we want a woman to be smart in this world. And we like Sarah Snook's performance. And she has some outside experience or whatever, whatever. Sarah Snoke today was like, you know, she has not been in as much in the conversation because I think in a lot of ways it was Roman season and it was Kieran Culkin's season. And that Jeremy Strong obviously had a lot of very, very. big showcase scenes towards the end of the season. But her in that room with Frank and Carl and Jerry and Logan, she was amazing in that scene.

Yeah, she was savage. I loved it. But I think that just the idea that what they're fighting for, why they feel they are owed something, if you take out the jargon is so dumb and petty and their dad called them on it, right? Yeah, the jargon is like... Love.

Romans like love. That's why you should do that. You owe us because we've sat here and eaten shit for 30 years. And now you can just make another baby and they get Connered. And by the way, like all of this was, sometimes it's one of the pleasures of the show is that there's so many scenes and there's so many funny scenes that they wash over you and they don't necessarily feel like they are strung together in any particular way. There's a version of watching this episode and being like, oh, Alan Ruck's great. and he finally got a big scene. And, you know, he's always, he's a team player.

He's always around. He's always good for, you know, a couple minutes in crunch time. This scene was crucial, not just to the character development, the scene at the table, the intervention for Kendall that's actually a declaration for Connor. It's crucial because what it does is foreshadow how all of this comes down to nonsense. Yeah. Birth order, right? They don't hold anything.

in their hands, except their last name, which they don't even hold, because as Logan says, their hands just turned to sausages. It's pretty expertly done in addition to being pretty funny, and we should shout out, well, we're just, you don't know if we're going to talk more about Connor, but Justine Lupe's face as the limo door is closing. Shouts to Mark Milit for catching that. You know, they have a lot of cameras moving. They probably did a bunch of takes. But, I mean, the quiet desperation of that shot in the shot of her just drinking later. Great little moments like that. Like, I thought Jeremy Strong, patting the valet on the shoulder,

like the guy bringing him this car, as if he's sort of like, hey, so we're good now, right? Service industry? Hey, working class. I've unburdened myself. But just that little tap, like him watching those guys

bringing out the trash. Yeah, there were so many great moments. And I also thought, you know, just the way in which they shot that last confrontation of Logan being like, you know, going from,

I'll be placating. Then I'll just try to get Roman. And then when it's obvious that the three of them have turned against me, all hell breaks loose. And at the end of that scene, and when you get to the end of that,

I thought the fucking best part about it, because sometimes, as far as much as I love Connor, I kind of wonder like, oh, like, Connor's incredible, but this is kind of like a comic relief part for the show.

It's like a pressure release valve. But at the end of that scene, all those kids are Connor. They just got Connered. Yeah, they just have this. name now and now they have a lot of money and they have like kind of a nebulous sort of, you know, role in the world, but they have no actual power and they have no actual choose. And I do think

for as much as that last scene was the godfather and however much I keep using Game of Thrones as a hobby horse to talk about the maybe straw men and women watching the show who expect this succession to be like Game of Thrones. I wasn't kidding when I said it was kind of like the red wedding. The Power dynamics at play in that room were so complicated and so brilliantly staged, the kids come running in with all the steam. And Brian Cox doesn't stand up for a very long time. Now, that is powerful acting to be owning it all from a seated, lowered position. But one of the things that I kept thinking about while the scene was playing out and realizing how it was going, and as the characters, the kids realize how it's going, was that Carl, Frank, and Jerry are all in.

that room for all of it. Right. They are old hands. They have survived 10 times as many things as these kids have, and they've had to work for it in a completely different way. And they have lived with their heads under the guillotine in a real way for the entirety of their professional careers. And that factors into our watching of the scene.

I bet it factored into the acting of the scene. And it was just so powerful from a visual perspective. It's like, you've had your fucking fun, dumdums. the grownups are now just going to drive. They're going to drive. And they're sitting here, and they've been sitting here the whole time. So what else have we not hit?

I mean, I thought that watching the Greg stuff over the course of the episode and over the course of the last few episodes, you would normally maybe just write that off, not unlike Connor as a comic element. But I thought that if this season taught us anything, aside from the fact that, you know, feel free to go swimming after a couple of pronies.

It taught us that this stuff happening on the periphery is actually really important. So Greg, perhaps becoming the weirdest king in Europe. Who knows? That's saying something, by the way. But maybe that winds up coming into play in some capacity. Do you know what I mean? Like maybe all of the stuff,

I don't think that stuff gets written into this show. I think there are a lot of throwaway lines and there are a lot of freebies and there's a lot of really great burns. And sometimes you'll get a joke that happens at the expense of the drama or at the expense of the this should happen after this

but I'm curious where your head is at with like some of them were lower tier characters in terms of like what their part is and the great plan well I'm happy for Comfree

that she got her trip to Europe into Italy I was happy that Frank and Carl were there we talked about that last week I'm relieved I'm very I am interested in the I mean we'll start with Greg

like Tom isn't lying to him, you know, and I don't want to make a blanket statement without, you know, I haven't obviously rewatched the entirety of the show. No, we were just recorded after the show ended, yeah. But I mean, the series, beyond it, because I was going to say that I think that, I don't know if Tom's never lied to Greg, but that might kind of be true, right? Like, when he says, who in this family has looked out for you, he's right. He's dealt with him. He engages with him.

he shit on him and he made him eat an ordle on with a napkin over his face among any other, many other indignities. But laughed at him when he did like a table full of cocaine to save casual. But he talks to him. Sure. You know, he engages with him. And that is clearly enough.

Which other characters should we run through? Yeah, I mean, we can talk about Caroline. I mean, this was two episodes. It was she sort of loomed in the background. And I wondered for a while, like, what, aside from the incredible trip they must have gotten out of it, like where are we going with this?

Not in like a nagging way, but I was just sort of like, that scene with Shiv and you're my onion in episode eight of, you know, what, and also sort of Caroline's view on what those kids needed.

And even her saying, like, maybe this is best for all of you. Maybe this has all gotten a bit crazy. I mean, there are extremely bad parents. they don't love them or express love in any way that is sustaining or helpful in any imaginable sense. And yet these kids, they hold out hope.

Yeah. They hold that hope. And hope can be very, very, very, very dangerous, you know. They all look like kicked dogs at the end of it. And I think that there is a, yes, and there's a version of this where, you know, just the Shiv stuff, they're just, they think. The kids keep thinking they've climbed to the top of the highest point, and they have now the perspective to see what they did wrong and what it would take to get to become what they most want

to be. And I think Shiv leaving the onion conversation last week and saying to Tom, you know, here's what we're going to do. We're going to show them. We're going to get this right. And she didn't use those words. She used very different words. But to herself, I think that was what she was thinking.

You know, I'm going to earn my mother's respect by defeating her, basically. and being better than her and being having it all, to her comment, her and how darkly, almost darkly comically foreshadowing comment to her mother at the wedding when she's like, I hope that your wedding is as supportive and loving your marriage as mine is. I forgot that.

That's a good point. Minutes before all of this happens, you know. They, I think that's what I keep coming back to. What's so appealing and engaging about the show is just the kind of really, uncomfortable naked humanity of it, that these people who have everything keep coming back to the one thing that they actually want and they cannot get it, but they cannot accept it, right?

Logan and Matt and understand each other. There's the dialogue about everything is boring, except this, except the high of this, of this moment. And it's kind of interesting what it means for Logan going forward is that, you know, all this talk about him aging or being ill or lion in winter or raging against the dying of whatever not bowing to reality, he might. Just straight spit and macarroot everywhere he goes. But regardless of that, that feels like a distraction because it might be that in the,

you know, that fucking rented palazzo that Mattin doesn't have a bed in, Logan might have been like, oh no, I get it. This is it. This is my last high. And I'm going to make it pure and I'm going to make it good. And this is it. and at the end I'll have more money to throw on top of my pile of money,

but I don't give a shit about money. I don't care. It doesn't matter, but I'm going to have one last good time, basically, one thing to feel alive. And I'm not going to say that's poignant because in the next scene, he tells his children what he really thinks of them,

which is that they're fucking morons. Right. But there is something kind of, kind of, it's not noble, but it's pure. But in that is such an interesting example of how, sometimes what's interesting about what the character, are doing in any given moment is not always what's the most interesting about the show. Do you know what

mean? That there's attention there. So Logan feeling the thrill of the deal and recognizing in Mattson, a kind of fellow traveler when it comes to, I like failure and I like, you know, show me your weaknesses. And like he's when he's like, what are you thinking? And Logan's like, I'm not fucking telling you what I'm thinking. Now, interestingly, Roman has a very similar response to a question like that in episode eight, which does speak to Roman similarity with, Logan. But Logan being sort of deposed as, and

you know, this show is going to figure it out. And next season he could be overseeing the presidential election and that would be a fascinating season of television or whatever they wanted to. But Logan not being in this position is in some ways as dramatic a turn as a character death, as a main character death. Yes.

You're right. So I think that both these last two episodes ended with... I wouldn't take away anything from the bravery of the show even if I think that I was caught up in the momentum of, oh, my God, like, this is the tragic end for this character, this unlovable person. I think it's worth repeating yet again that a hallmark of British TV, maybe British culture, maybe British life is an ability to withstand the most, the cringiest, most uncomfortable situations. Cringe comedy, whatever that term might mean. That came to America on the old shipping routes, you know what I mean?

Like, that came from the UK. And Jesse Armstrong cut his teeth on comedy. He's very, very comfortable hanging out in the next moment, in the moment after. And I think that the way that seasons break and the way the offseason happens is really good for the show and for American audiences. Because we could leave season two with this rush of, oh, Kendall's coming for the king, baby. It's going to be Team Kendall. versus team Logan, let's fucking go. Let's get ready to, I'm not going to say,

because I think we have to pay that due to trademark fee if we say it. But you know what I mean? And then how does the next season begin? Baby Kendall's having a panic attack and a bathtub. And we're going to hang out with that panic attack for eight more fucking episodes. That's right. That's what motivates him. He doesn't flinch.

He doesn't care. Like, if we get the chance to talk to him about it, I bet he's excited for the moment, after the moment, when Logan's like, everything is empty, this is boring, what the fuck? That's what I was going to ask you, is we've talked a little bit about the opening set of episodes from this season pretty much happened

right after the end of the second season, right after episode one, episode two starts with Shiv in the car going back. So there was this compression, and then it kind of stretched out with maybe weeks or whatever going on in between episodes as we hit the second half. I'm not asking for any to get any of like predictive

and what do we want from season three? I don't really care yet. I'm curious whether or not you're more curious about what happens immediately as Tom comes up behind Shiv and puts his hands on her shoulders or six months later

when Logan's like, this isn't that fun. I'm going to do, I'm going to close a lot of, yeah. Like, are you more interested in the thing that happens the second after

Logan leaves that room or a year after Logan leaves that room? A year. Personally, a year. I think that this moment, served its purpose, and then I'd love to see the fallout. You know, I was joking before when I mentioned the office, but, you know, I feel like that it is ripe for a Michael Scott paper company type arc, you know, where like Schiv and

Kendall start their own media empire. Yeah. Well, they said they would have a beautiful partnership. They were like, we could all be equals, you know? I mean, they'll borrow a van from the Korean church, so they'll have to pick up people all the time like in that episode. But, but yeah, I would love to see. a time jump, but I also, you know, this is, maybe this is old age, maybe this is just enjoying

the show for what it is, but I feel, I feel relatively zen about this in a way that I might not have with one of the more amped up plot-driven masterpieces that we've been referring to, Breaking Bad Game of Thrones. Like, you know, unlike Kendall at the end of season one in Chiv's wedding, like, I trust the driver here, you know what I mean? And if there's one thing that this season has shown us for good and for ill, the show is going to do, it's going to operate on its own pace and tell the stories that it wants to tell. And it's not going to give us the satisfaction that we sometimes want out of it or the, or the propulsive change that we sometimes feel we deserve. It's going to pick the moment and it's going to continue. And, you know,

I think that the shape of the series, at least in terms of our conception of it, hasn't changed too much by this episode. I still feel like we are market-capped at four or five episodes max, four or five seasons max, you know? Yes. I don't think, there's certainly nothing in this that suggests more than that,

but I also think that it will play itself out to the end as a family drama first and foremost, and the structure of the family and the relationship to each other's family. But it's exciting. I think that what is richer terrain for this show with these actors and these writers going forward? Is it

mourning the loss of Kendall or Logan on trial for abetting the cover-up of the death of the boy as he keeps calling him, the cater-waiter? No, what's most exciting going forward is these actors and these writers navigating what comes after this moment

when it's not just the throne that was promised to them being taken away. It doesn't even exist anymore. No, the family has been broken apart into a hundred pieces. So what is it? So what is family? What do they have to do with each other now?

That's interesting to me. They have to scale the north face of the fucking Iger. I have a, like, I guess the only thing I was going to say is if there's anything from taking notes on this episode, I have, I have Romans face during Shiv's toast. I really liked the face he makes when she makes reference to her marriage to Tom. But also, Shiv, by the way, respect to Shiv for, I know that she's the character, not the actress, has gotten some criticism for just. just more than the others, like not just keep making the same mistakes, but constantly,

constantly making the same, like, turning blank dick into an insult, right? Sure. Like, she seems to have in her Merriam-Webster insult dictionary, she has her favorite page highlighted. Yes. Yes. But there's something effective about her sledgehammer approach to belittling people, because the sheer savagery that she, before she gets to the room with her dad, when every other comment, every other sentence to her brother is you want to fuck our mother.

Right. When Caroline's walking down the aisle and she's just like you should go up and tell mom. Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty good. Other than that, it's just random straight lines here and there make your own fucking pile. Pretty much sums up Logan's attitude towards his children. I have that underlined too. What am I going to do with a soul anyway?

Pretty much sums up all the characters on this show. I think all of the stuff that Kendall's character utters in that village scene where he's, you know, like, I'm, you know, I'm breaking apart and shattered into a million pieces and I'm so lonely and all those things that almost sound sentimental or melodramatic when you hear them read back by me were just rendered incredibly, poignantly by Jeremy Strong. And yeah, I also like the line of the Wizard of Fuck. I want to stay in that dust for a while. By the way, the costumers did a great job because or maybe rich people just know how to get like, you know,

the famous red soil of Sienna out of $1,000 pants during a car ride. That's right. That was very well done. I think to me that was the most thrilling scene, not just because it was so momentous emotionally, but because of what it did do and what it didn't do. You know, this is a broken record. We're recording basically instantly,

and so I'm sure there are more. things to say about the episode in different places that we could have dive deeper into. But I just think that so many shows will take the opportunity for a character being at rock bottom, whether they're actually saying I'm not a good person or not, to bring closure to that emotional moments. So what you would expect in a lesser show or a less interesting or intelligently written show would be for Kendall to wipe his eyes and stand up and be a new man. He is unburdened himself.

he's reborn if he quote unquote died at the end of the last episode. But that's just not what happens in life. And this show is not life. But what happens when people break down in the dust near a trash can is people are like, do we have to do this? Yeah. Seeing people cry is hard. It sucks.

It's uncomfortable. You see it every Monday and Thursday with me. Well, luckily they turn off the Zoom cameras, but Kaya has the tapes. And then it was just time for him to get. get up. He laughed once, you know, about the gin and waiting 45 minutes for a gin and tonic. And that was a human moment, but life isn't just one moment, you know? Yeah. And it, and then it was on to the next thing because the people around him were on to the next thing. And he was great. Sadly, and this came across in Jeremy Strong's performance, I think Kendall was grateful for the crumbs. I think he was happy to be given something to do. As he says, he's been planning this since he was four. So he, but I think he was, I think he was grateful for the attention he got. Yes. The emotional. He, he knows they're all. broken sock puppets, you know? And so he got as much as they were capable of giving and maybe that was okay for a moment. And then, yeah, and then there was an updraft and he could just stand up and glide on it again for a minute and maybe for him that's as good as it gets. It is a,

it is a savage show. I was emailing with someone else who was, you know, expressing strong opinions about what would happen. And he said, uh, this is Bocco's ghost. No, Bocchgo's ghost doesn't have Wi-Fi. This was, this was an email. And basically saying, but it is someone who works in the industry and was basically saying, this is the most violent show I've ever watched in my life. And I kind of love that. Yeah, that is a good way of looking at. It's funny to think about that in relationship to like Squid Game and Mayor of Kingston.

Yeah. And I think that, you know, this show confounds us in a number of ways. And is it like de facto the number one show of the years? Is it the best show on television? Is it everyone's favorite? Is it the most popular? It's kind of no to all of those. It has become the most exciting to watch.

watch en masse in a way that you and I love and podcast listeners love and is super fun. But it isn't always the very best, you know, but it is absolutely true to what it is in such an engaging, creative, fucking cerebrally smart and often hilarious way that I fucking celebrate it. And I love doing this and talking about it week to week. I'm going to miss it. Not many shows. You know, we're going to do our best of the TV pod next week, best TV of the year podcast. I know the show will be high up for both of us.

It might not be number one because it might not do all of the things that we love or that we're looking for the best of anything, right? Yeah. But in terms of giving us the opportunity to do this and talk about stuff and I mean, there is nothing better right now

and I'm pretty excited about it still and grateful for it. I'm always bummed at the end of a season or succession because it means I can't talk about it every week with you. So thank you to you. Chris, if you were here, I would touch your head kind of awkwardly

and then go take a cell phone call. I'll be your pod spores whenever you need. By the way, I don't know if this is true. If there are people who have found us are only listening to us during these succession pods, but I would just like to say, stick around. I just feel like our new CEO, Lucas Mattson,

has a lot of great ideas. I feel like our churn rate hasn't been great in the past, but I feel like in fiscal 22, it's going to turn around. And I feel like we've got a lot to offer. Thank you to Kai McMullen for producing and for sticking around late on a Sunday night

to produce us. Thanks to everybody for listening to our Succession Recaps this season. We'll be back on Thursday with normally scheduled programming, and we've got our best TV of the year podcast with Sam S Mail coming next week. So fun stuff on the watch feed. Stick around, and we'll talk to you guys soon. He says, I'm not a good person.

And Roman says, you're fine. You're fine. That's what it is, man. That's life. Hey, Mama. Thanks for making all my favorite recipes. Hi, Ma. Thanks for your unfiltered advice.

Hi, Mom. Thanks for always being by the best. phone. Hey mom, happy Mother's Day. When you ship UPS air at the UPS store, your items arrive on time or your money back. Guaranteed at no extra cost, exclusively at the UPS store UPS store U.S. retail locations. Visit the UPS store.com slash air shipping for full details. Terms and conditions apply. Send your Mother's Day gifts at the UPS store and we'll get your gratitude there on time.