The Watch - ‘Succession’ S4E4, “The Honeymoon States,” and the Premiere of the Final Season of ‘Barry’

Episode Date: April 17, 2023

Chris and Andy talk about the latest episode of ‘Succession.’ They discuss how Jesse Armstrong is increasingly writing this show like a stage play (1:00) and whether or not they were missing Brian Cox in this episode (37:39). Then they talk about the first two episodes of the final season of ‘Barry’ and how this show has evolved since its first season (45:02). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Sean Fennessey, one of the hosts of the Prestige TV podcast. HBO's Barry is back for a fourth and final season. And that means I'll be back recapping the show with co-creator and star Bill Hader to dive deep on the themes, scenes, and major moments in the series. Bill will provide insight into how every episode was made and why it's ending. New Prestige TV Barry recaps will go live every Sunday night when the episode ends. So make sure you're subscribed to the Prestige TV podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Did you know about one? and three people with plaques psoriasis may also develop psoriotic arthritis, which causes joint

pain, stiffness, and swelling? Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trimphaya, guselcomab taken by injection is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaques psoriasis, who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy and for adults with active psoriotic arthritis. Serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information.

This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. I'm Chris Ryan. I am an editor for the ringer.com and joining me in the studio. love what he did with cable in the 90s.

It's Andy Krival. It's a special honor to be here this morning. It was touch and go for a minute there. Let's go! You know? What's up with you, man? It's been a minute. I want to apologize to everyone.

You fucking better. We didn't do a show on Thursday, which is not us. We are known as the most consistent pop culture podcast on the internet, I think, until recently. Yeah. And despite what people may think, I was not. not flying to Sweden. I was not back in Japan. I was just real sick. Non-COVID edition. And I spent the week kind of like... Like every NBA player, non-COVID illness. Non-COVID illness. But it was not load

management. And I did spend the week kind of like Kendall spent the first 30 seconds of last night's episode of Succession. It was awful. But I do think people who have parisocial relationships to us should know that, Chris, you were my North Star. Like, you were always available on text. You were checking in. You were making sure I was getting fluids. Yeah, just a text butt pat. That's what I was doing. I was like, you got this kid. Yeah. I appreciated that. That got me through. And as did the steroid injections. So, you know, I hope I don't get tested by the league after this podcast. But I'll do my best. You are like LeBron coming back. They thought you needed surgery and instead you're out here playing 41 minutes a game. I did get my blood changed.

You know, you gave me the option of recording on my own on Thursday. I did. It's solo. And for a second, I entertained one of those all-time classic. I talk for 11 minutes at a time. And Kyah goes, that's cool. Oh, you mean the Greenwald? Yeah.

I remember the first time I heard you do like 22 solo. And I was just like, this is absolutely bad shit. Yeah. Okay. But I can't do this without you. Not at this time of year when it's succession time. Yeah. It's Barry time.

when it's 100-foot wave season two time. Listen, and considering how generous Mr. Zazlov has been to us, the fact that we were unable to cover the max announcement last week. We have a lot to get through. So what we're going to do today is Succession and Barry's first two episodes. Did you watch both? Of course. That's why you're the best.

Well, when you're sick, you can watch television as it turns out. I didn't know that. I didn't get the vibe from you that you were like, how can I make the most out of this time? I did go to my safe spot. I did start watching Ozu movies on Criterion. I 100% did that. But there was a lot of sick time.

And so we'll do Succession Barry. And then if we have time at the end, if you're still with me, maybe we'll do some Max rebrand. But we could also save that for Thursday. We also have Top Chef. Yeah. And another casualty has been our Daisy Jones recap, which is going to happen. That got pushed also. Is it?

Yeah. Look at me. Look in these slightly watery red-rimmed eyes. Do you want me to recap last night's succession? It's not what I want. It's what the listeners want. I don't know that my recaps really serve much of a purpose. This isn't exactly a Russian novel. I think the listeners who aren't in traffic right now, they like to, they use this time.

They make a cold drink for themselves. You know, they get the pillows set up, right? Yeah. Okay, so here's the thing. Broadstrokes? Shiv's pregnant. Mm-hmm. It's worth noting.

That's Tom's baby, right? Yeah. Right. I just wanted to make sure in my mind, because time is really weird on this show, so it's like it's been three months since season three. I was just trying to remember. Shiv has not had any other paramours. Do you think Ashley Zuckerman's coming back?

He's the Robert Langdon contract is off. What was the guy's name on the show? Nate. Nate. Yeah. I think you might. Do you ever watch the like, what are they called? Like the, you know, the extra content they film.

I forget it's the E something. Like the promotional packages they do with the cast. And they'll show up like on auto plays. It'll HBO or run them. And there's one where they have the cast, you know, they have all the cast members for like 40 minutes. They ask them all the same ten questions and they hope to mine for gold. And there's one where there's like a lot of good insults on this show. What's your favorite?

And none of them remember any of them. So it's like two minutes of them remembering like buckle up bucklehead or something. Right. They remember that one. Right. And then the rest of them, they remember like Nate saying something about being a basic. You don't watch a lot of YouTube, do you? I watch a lot of YouTube that I get through Facebook.

Okay. Because there's like, this is now like most of what celebrity journalism is. is on YouTube is just people, two people from a cast in a room. And they're like, why don't you two look up your Google results? That seems fun. Okay. So anyway, Shiv's pregnant. We're at this wake at Logan's apartment, which will serve as this setting for the

entirety of the episode. Yes. And we've got Marcia, who is in Milan shopping forever. She's back, and she's sort of running this. She had a closer relationship with Logan than Kendall at the end. They were still speaking, quote, unquote, intimately. Every night. every night.

Kind of like us. Yeah. And at the wake, the C-suite is trying to figure out who will be the next CEO. Frank discovers a piece of paper, dated unknown that indicates Logan's wish that Kendall take over the company as CEO,

but we're not sure when that was written, and we're not sure whether or not he has underlined it to emphasize his choice or crossed it out to suggest, never mind. This news is slowly disseminated, and I put a pin in disseminated, because I want to ask you about this. Finally, to the three siblings,

Kendall, who earlier was taken back by the continued intimacy of Logan and Marcia in the face of his own estrangement with his father, finally feels like his dad sees him and begins to make his move. He talks to Stewie, then Roman and Shiv, into a plan that involves him taking over a CEO, Roman Briden's Shotgun,

and Shiv reluctantly agrees with the understanding that this will be a short-term deal. Roman is co-CEO, I believe, right? I thought he was C-O. I thought because they were both C-O's, they would step up together. Okay. Well, we can discuss the org chart.

Shiv reluctantly agrees under the provision that this is going to be a six to eight month gig, that they're going to go do ATN Pierce together, that she's across everything. Yeah. Who wouldn't trust this? And after the board meeting, coronation, Hugo and Carolina come to Kendall and Roman and give them the choice of running with a safe pair of hands narrative, talking about what a great guy, Logan was. Or leaking to the press that Logan was losing his fastball and that there's a new sheriff in town. and that all the problems that used to face waste are, those were Logan problems. And now they've got this great group of people.

And conversely, too, that anything steadying had come from outside. Yes, exactly. They reject the latter, but later Kendall goes to Hugo and essentially blackmails him into that very thing. There's some other things going on. Connor stuff. Shiv falls down. Tom and Shiv have absolutely agonizing Bergman movie

taking place during this episode. Just on the stairs. I don't know. I can't remember. I should look. I should do my work, what this episode's called. It's called the honeymoon. Honeymoon states.

I'd like to tell you what this episode should be called. Dark Ken Rises. Oh, I like that. That has the same initials as you and Sean Fennesse's favorite Batman movie. Dark, yeah. By threatening to pull out the strap-on, he becomes the killer. His father always doubted he was.

Yeah, and it's also impressive and kind of an homage to his father because using a strap-on is a traditional. father's daughter conversation in Hugo's family. So Kendall is taking on a paternal role in that way. He's sort of assuming the mantle, right? Jeremy Strong's unreal in this episode. Yeah. Yeah.

This isn't even a Zad, by the way. Are you going to do the thing where you're like, let's only talk about succession for eight minutes, and I'm just going to see this show is good. Give me your takes. I thought you weren't done recapping. No, I'm done. That's the end of the episode.

Yeah. Well, so what did you feel energy-wise. Because again, this is a remarkable balancing act, because this episode is coming after one of the most momentous episodes, most surprising episodic, dramatic episodes in recent television history. Obviously, when they were making this, they wouldn't have given any thought to what I just recently saw was what, like, the highest IMD or Rotten Tomatoes or something rating in the history of episodic television. It has a perfect rating, I think. But they had to know that, that this was a really important inflection point for the series,

because in a way, this is the reboot. This is what the show is going to be from here until the finish line. And I thought it was interesting that it paused for really only the time when Kendall was cosplaying as me briefly, just sick and alone, before getting into it. And really what I thought was in terms of our reaction to the beginning of last week's episode. And you remember we were talking about how, before the first phone call from Tom on the plane,

it felt like they had reached the end of something. The jokes weren't landing. The profanity just felt kind of profane and empty and tired. And one thing that was really notable to me was the mojo is back. And that is deeply disturbing. Yeah. But absolutely true. You know, that a momentous event has a ripple effect that can give very,

very confusing sensations of energy or whatever it is that Roman is doing. But more than anything else, it gives them something to do. It gives them purpose. And shockingly, this was the arc of the episode, it gives these, you know, malign toys, who are these children, agency and priority again. They were on the outs. Some of these malign toys have agency. Right. Yeah. We could speak about some of the others. It was really interesting. I also just think Broadstrokes, I love how, you know, last week we were talking about how the show doesn't really have sex scenes because, you know, Jesse Armstrong doesn't really

want to write him. So that's fine. He can write whatever show he wants to write. He really just wants to write, like, stage plays almost at this point. Yes. Now, the direction by Mark Milo, this was directed by Lorene Schofaria, who's directed on the show before, does an excellent job. It's very kinetic.

it's propulsive. The decisions to go from one room to the other to inspect the China, et cetera, et cetera, really keeps the sense of propulsion going throughout the episode. Even though this is taking place in an apartment. It's just taking place the biggest apartment in the world. But like it's just... It's so hard to get into these good buildings.

Yeah. It's, um, the fact that it's just a conversation between these 10 people rotating is really striking. And that the show continues to be kind of just at its best when it's insular, even though, as Jerry says, you know, prime ministers and presidents and royalty, they're all calling, but they're not here. They're not where the action is. Yeah.

These people need this. They feel more alive than ever with the center of the universe gone. And is that a dead cat bounce? I think that's the question. Yeah. So your point is really well taken because some of the words that you've used over the course of your description of the episode resonate with me when it, because I, I just. just keep going back to this interview that Jeremy Strong gave at the beginning of the season, where he kind of casually mentioned that this show is often just compared to King Lear,

but to him it's Richard the Third, you know, and it's about this guy who will do whatever it takes to get to this mountain top that he wants to be on it. Interesting. So it's not about the King Lear where Brian Cox is the star. It's Richard III, where Jeremy Strong is the start. That's also a really good thing to say so that when Brian Cox is calling up Collider to be like, I'd like to do an interview about fucking Jeremy Strung, says this is Richard the third, not Taylor. But this episode actually had an almost royal, you know, political bent to it. Like there was, this actually did feel like we are picking the air.

Like palace intrigue. Yeah. And it was in a palace. Yes. And when Kendall and Roman walk out, there is like almost like an all hail. You know, I think literally, somebody says, like, Hill, like Kendall and Roman, there is... Yeah, it felt like the great in the sense that there were these halls with people in them. Yes.

And the people are serving a purpose, but really the purpose is just to be present and to genuflect. Yeah. And because it's, if you start thinking about terms of Shakespeare or certain, like, a theatricality to it, this show can feel so loose and alive and improvised and free. And, like, we know that they'll just do a take where they're like, try something. try something, and maybe we'll use this, and maybe we'll cut together these three things, especially some of the famous dinner scenes. Like, we've heard the actors on the show talk about, like, they'll just let you do a take

yourself where you're just like playing, you know? And then that winds up in the show and combined with something that Jesse also wrote. But I think because it feels so alive and free, sometimes you forget the precision with which certain words are chosen or certain scenes are constructed in certain ways. And so I really kept going back to the scene between the Sibs, with, which. where Shiv makes them promise on their dad. Right. And I thought that was really perversely funny

that the three of them would promise on the name of their tormentor not to torment to one another. Yeah, it's almost doing him a disservice. And also, did you catch the way Kendall looked at her when they cut to him and he's like on yesterday? Which is like, on one hand, has the meaning of yes, of course yesterday was important

and I swear on yesterday that I won't betray you. But it's also like, that was yesterday. Yeah, well, the same moment was kind of replayed when they first see the piece of paper, which we should talk about in more detail, you know, when he's like, well, sure shit doesn't say Shiv on that paper, you know, and she's like, it's so, it's not even below the surface, it's waiting.

Yeah. I do want to, before we move on to the specifics of those scenes, I think the idea of the palace intrigue connects to something that I was observing in the episode two, which is there really is a difference between being wealthy in being rich. And it is similar to royalty, I think, to being born in it versus grasping for it,

you know, the brass ring. And it was never more apparent than it was in this episode. Because the siblings, for all of their many flaws and their ups and downs, have a floor of certainty in terms of what is owed to them

and what they deserve. And they carry themselves with it. You know, we saw it last week when it's like, even in this moment, when Hugo has a job to do, he really needs to get Shiv Advil first. You know, that's just what happens. The way that they take ownership of a room and dismiss everyone else in it,

there is no wobbling because no matter what happens today, they're going to be generationally wealthy for the rest of their lives and their children's lives. The disparity between the way they talked about what's happening and the way, you call them the C-suite elite, which crucially Tom is a member of as well, was really telling. It is fleeting for them. You know, you would never hear a Roy say that he is, you know, up really like in over his head on a Greek island with his brother-in-law. You know what I mean?

Like, Connor buys artifacts that just bought a house for $63 million on a spit handshake. You know what I mean? Like, we have a, he has alluded to some financial precarity in the past. But nothing like that. Right. And when, and the way that that realization plays on Tom through the episode was incredible. And again, another, you know, Hall of Fame, Matthew McKearkey. Fajon performance because no one has lost more potentially than he has. And the way he speaks,

the way his language became, I'm here to serve, the way he just tumbled down the ladder and is looking up again, which is similar to the way he was in the first season, was really striking. None of those other people, even Jerry, who, as she says, has done it before. Yeah. Has ever walked into a room the way Kendall and Roman walk into a room. Yeah, you know, you're at a wake, you're at this gathering where I think, ideally you're supposed to be supporting one another. Ideally. And I was struck by how every single time

someone is reaching out for human connection, it gets it gets either rejected or it just kind of misses in mid-air. So you've got Carrie returning and she's got her pills and she wants to see if there's like her jewelry is upstairs or whatever it is. And Roman is sort of like,

I want to be a human being and help you. but like not like he can't quite like be a hero in that moment. He doesn't know we know maybe if he should be, but he's just more like kind of like, I'm sort of in the way of this, but I don't know. And so then you've got that. You've got Shiv on the stairs after Tom makes his Mr. Darcy's speech. And she's just like, okay, great.

What about Greg's hug when he's like, my guys? That's just not the way anyone physically engages with another person. But it's just like everybody's sort of kind of like, feeling around in the dark trying to find one another. And the only moment that I thought, and it's the second time this season that I've been quite moved by an interaction between these two were Peter Friedman and Jeremy Strong's performances

in the sometime scene when he's discovered the piece of paper and everybody else has left and Frank and Kendall stay behind. And it's just like this extraordinary moment where like obviously this guy is something of a surrogate father. and, you know, he made me hate him and then he died is just basically like good summary of all father-son relationships. Yeah.

It's from Oedipus straight to Kendall. Yeah. Well, I want to talk about Peter Friedman as Frank and also David Rashi as Carl because this is really... Respectfully. This is really their episode. They were unreal. It's interesting the way you get to see...

Let's just using Frank and Peter Friedman's amazing performance as an example of this, he is doing what the family continued to say they were doing. In the last scene at the karaoke bar, and as the further we get from it, the funnier it is that the last Roy family powwow was in a private room at a karaoke bar

in the Lower East Side, Schiff once again trotted out that. This isn't personal, this is business. Watch Jerry and Frank and Carl this episode. They worked for this asshole for four decades. their eyes are bone dry. You know what I mean? They're just dealing with the present situation

because it is 1,000% business. They're also not like it's summer vacation. Right. No. Like, oh, yes, the king is dead. Now we get to, like, do things the way we've always wanted. It's still their job. Yeah.

It's still a delicate balancing act with these, you know, I forget what, specifically what Tom calls them, but like dipshits and whatever. Oh, screw up. The kids are screw ups and dipships. Yeah. I mean, now they have, the problem was above. and now the problem is below,

but either way, the problem is the Roy's, you know. Frank's balancing act of being clear-eyed and emotionally direct to Kendall. And honest, again, two episodes in a row, in a way apparent ought to be, but Kendall is very unfamiliar with,

is striking, even as he can still be as, not as broadly cartoonish as some of the others, but he is still, you know, commenting in a joking way that perhaps his hand might get shaky and the document might fall into the toilet. But it's a remarkable balance, yeah.

Yeah, what's the line he has about, we always think the ice shelves are going to come? Yeah. That's remarkable. And then the Carl of it, I mean, can we just, I feel like every season we just have to take a moment for Mr. Sledgehammer himself. He's 78 years young. The scene with him, Jerry and Tom, when he's like, if there's a ring, I'd like to throw my hat in it. And he's just like, oh, okay. Can I give you a sense of what the story might go?

I mean, talk about McFadgett. You mentioned Mr. Darcy. I mean, he was Mr. Darcy, right? And he was in Howard's End. And you see him, I watched him a clip of him on Fallon, because, you know, big YouTube guy from my sick bed. And he's just a very debonair straight up and down. He seems like a lovely dude. British, lovely British guy.

Yeah. If you, dear listeners, if you watch that scene again, where Carl just. reaches into his body like Last of the Mohicans and removes his still beating heart. It's like gray hair. Watch Matthew McFadgin's mouth. I want to know how many takes they did and how many tacos he had to eat. But also, were they tacos? Yeah, because she's like, when Jerry's like, you're sick with grief, you might want to put that fish taco down.

You're getting melancholy everywhere. I'm going to go on a limb and say that that was a classic J. Smith Cameron ad lib. Because I just don't think they were catering fish tacos. You know, this wedding, this wake did not happen in Rosarito, you know what I mean? But I just mean, watch McFadgin's mouth because so much of the acting on this show, so much attention is paid towards the verbal. And obviously, with good reason, it's incredibly high-flying and dexterous. But, like, what these people do with their bodies?

And I don't know how Matthew McFagin makes his mouth shrink ten sizes. Yeah. So that, like, he'll maybe, we'll never speak again. Jesus, Carl. Yeah. It is, it's just an amazing thing. You mentioned, we talked about the scene with the piece of paper, and there is this scenario that the C-suite kind of cooks up where it's like,

well, what if this fell in the toilet or, you know, this blew away or nobody ever saw it? Why do they then tell the kids about it? Yeah, that was sort of smeared. I mean, my takeaway from that scene largely was modern office companies like Gojo. get a lot of shit for like the open floor plan, right? Sure. Like just a bullpen. We're all equals here.

No offices. No assigned seating. Amazon Prime just got ding for that in THR. That's right. I would imagine that Waystar Royco has not adopted modern office things. They do in the ATN bullpen where it's like all. That's just where the news is happening, fair and balanced. What I mean is the reason I say this is they're just all over each other anyway.

Like I think it was to me the takeaway was just comedy that it starts with, with Frank having access to one thing. And then Carl lets himself in. And then Jerry lets himself in. And at that point, it's just like, well... Well, so the three of them talk about what would happen if no one had ever seen this. Yes.

I guess my read of why they bring the kids in is by this point, it's like, there were only six people in the world who knew that Logan had died and that got out. Yeah. So really, there are no secrets. That's what I mean. And it's mutually assured destruction, right?

Like, they're all in it. And so they're fighting. for survival and if they just spread out the problem, then they can maybe all stay afloat. So let's talk about the document. Okay. What, as a fan of the show, like what do you think the intent was?

I think it's a totem for Kendall to do the thing that he wants to do. Yeah. Because this is not going to be clean and this is not going to be the Sibs. And it's the idea, whether he crossed it out or underlined it, it kind of doesn't matter. You know, it's more that, like, you wrote, at some point you wrote my name down.

And at some point, you thought I could do this. And it's not Shiv's name. And it's not Roman's name. And it's not Connor's name. And it's not Tom's name or whatever. And that's all he needs. And by the end of the episode, one of the things that I was really struck by was, he looks exactly like he looks in the pilot in this episode.

and I kept jotting down the words like hair because he has the same hairstyle as he had in the first episode. Hair air, you know? Oh, look at you. But I don't know what to do with that. Do you often jot down wordplay? It wasn't, I was just like he, he, this is, his look has gone from tech bro, you know, pumpkin seed eating Tom Ford guy to sort of business casual morning.

But like his look, he looks younger. Yeah. And he looks kind of fresh. and I don't think he's ever smiled that way like he smiles at Hugo at the end of the episode. He's in control. Here's my take. Of course it should fucking be him.

That's my take. I'm just purely with the text up to this point. Has he made a few mistakes? Sure. Who among us? But of the people who are throwing their hats in the proverbial ring, it's unquestionably, Kendall, who is suited for this. he is only suited for this. And I think in some ways

that's what the show has been telling us, right? That this is the only thing that he has ever wanted. It is the only thing that he has ever pointed his life toward. And every other thing he has done has been bad bordering on catastrophic.

And in the midst of this, he seems like this... This is insane. And I know that there are many episodes left. So I imagine there will be some zags to this. But like, he's the only one suited to do this job going forward. He's the only one focused on it. And I agree with you that the Hugo thing is a sign that he is ready to do it. He's not going to turn it into MSNBC. He's not

going to turn it into Pierce. That was never what this was going to be. And I do think that if you strip away some of the other stuff, like emotional attachment or enjoyment of the characters, like, you know, as they remind her, like, Schiff still hasn't really worked for the company. She did some daddy busy work, I guess. I mean, we could talk about the shift part. But he, But it should be him. I noted with interest that when they're in the room, the three of them, and they're describing what the scenario is going to be and how it's going to be. And he very purposely, even though obviously he doesn't know what the meaning is,

he goes six to eight months, like her pregnancy. Oh, yeah. And it's just like it just feels like all of a sudden she is shunted out. And Sarah Snook does this amazing little thing when she's like making, making them promise, she grabs her stomach and like kind of like almost heaves a little bit. Her bodily performance of being alone is really striking. Yeah. She is, I mean, she and Roman are not in good shape in opposite directions.

Sure. I don't believe pre-grieving is a thing. You know, I haven't fully studied it. It doesn't seem legit to me. Seems like there's another shoe about to drop. And just her I don't know What's interesting

About some of the events of the episode Is your point that Kendall's behavior with Hugo Proves that he has a lot of his father in him I think Shiv's response to Tom Also proves she has a lot of her father in her And it's not a good thing There's a there's a pridefulness There's a stubbornness

There is a Almost visceral anger Hurting the people closest to you Well there's a visceral anger at emotion that it is an invader in the body that is weakness, you know, and that it is somehow better or stronger to walk away, to button up.

And, you know, that it takes a very specific type of person to exist that way. Yeah. And she doesn't, I don't think she is that person. What did she make of Romans reaching out for Carrie?

I think that... Amazing scene, by the way. Just Marsha fucking godfathering it. But also the construction of it too where it's just like when Kendall arrives and he's like, where's, what does he say? Where's Carrie? And Roman's like, in Marsha's trunk in a sarcophagus.

Yeah, speaking of wealth versus rich, I put her in a taxi to the subway to go back to her little apartment. Yeah. I mean, that's... Tough for all of us who can't afford to take a taxi to the subway. I know.

I was like, wow, luxury. Oh, did I misread it? Yeah. One of my favorite aspects of the Roman character is that he has, the right intentions, but he has no modeling. Like, he wrote his dad, like, he did write his dad on his birthday. Yeah.

He wants to be a real boy more than any of these other people. The perfect example of what you just describing of is, like, he says to them at one point, like, this feels good. And I'm like, it doesn't sound like it feels good to you. Why are you saying those words together? Yes. You know? And you know it's not good.

You know you guys can't trust one another. He has the crunchiest exterior and the gooeyest center of any of these characters. and I just made myself hungry. But he wants to be real. Yeah. And just physically does not know how to do it. Emotionally does not know how to do it and is certainly not encouraged by anyone he has ever met

or been in proximity with of how to be a real person. So I was kind of touched by that too because it gave him something. I mean, one thing we noticed beginning in the last episode was the kind of they are incapable of letting any moment pass without jockeying. Who's sadder? who's more in the moment who's more accepting of reality and in that moment

Romans looking around being like all of you are savage monsters and I am not I am not in this moment but of course he is I mean it just wait till the next page to turn. The line of the episode to me in some ways well my favorite line rooting of the episode

happens in the same scene it was when Stewie says to Kendall what's in it for me Yeah, that was real Nicholson as the Joker. Yeah, I liked that. But Ken saying, I'm twin track. I'm alive, but I'm dead.

Yeah, that's, I kind of thought that was going to be the intro today for me. I know. He seems like he's sort of like is able to compartmentalize that and be these other people. The only thing, and this is not like a concern, but we mentioned like, you know, what makes them decide to distribute the paper. And I think over the course of the season, you could kind of. of, it's kind of like pin the tail on the donkey as to how the kids are feeling about the gojo deal in any given moment of an episode. Are you trying to undermine it? Or you're trying to extract more money. You're trying to torture your father. Are you trying to make it sure it happens so that you get your money? Yep.

For as satisfying as I felt like the end of this episode was, I hope, and I guess I hope that it, like, these last few episodes give them narrative clarity so that everybody is like, this is what I'm doing now. and not like next episode on succession, we're just going to pretend like the last 15 minutes of succession didn't happen or something? Well, I'm curious, there's no way that, you know, that the harmony's going to last.

Sure. So I think it'll be interesting to put that pre-question that you just voiced to consider it going forward because it's going to shatter and will it feel like we're just rerunning it or will it feel natural and tied into the emotional stuff. Yeah.

The Gojo scene was maybe my favorite. in the episode with the Oscar. Oscar. Yeah. Oscar and Lucas's phone. It's our retreat. Yeah. So again, Chris, of the two of us, you've worked most closely with Swedish tech conglomerates. Uh-huh.

They're pretty serious about their retreats, right? Like the schedule. I'm going on one in a month. So let's hope, we got to make sure that nothing major happens in any of our lives around that, right? At the end of succession. Because it's not changing. Yeah.

Did you, oh, is it happening at the same time? Unfortunately, yeah. Have you mentioned that to Daniel or Oscar? on Daniel's phone that maybe we could just bump it by a week because of the succession finale. No, I think it's going to be more of like me at 4 in the morning at some place in Europe being like,

it's Andy Greenwald. But crying a little bit. But maybe the sun won't set there at all. That's true. It'll still be bright. I loved when he's just like, do you know what happened yesterday? He's like, yeah, a bad one.

I don't think that that's consistent with all sweets. No, I would like to put it off. hard pivot. I'm not saying that that is there's also that amazing dance where it seems to be a lot of like, yeah, like let's table this for a week. And it's like, uh, like, no,

we're not going to table it for a week. Like, although like sort of, these sort of political, not political, but like these business gestures that happen where you're like, oh, what does this mean? What is the real meaning of this? I love that. And I think that that also was evidence of what

the thing that Logan Roy said made him great. and that other people said made him great was his racism and when they were parsing the obituary it was so good keen business savvy through phones at people but that he he could read

the intangibles right that like he can have a phone call like that and he can like he has a dowsing rod like he understands which ways the winds are blowing and he responds accordingly and he was pretty much never wrong these three are always wrong

in reading the mood, in understanding the way things are going and what it means for them. They are always, at least up to this point, not quite up to it and making a mistake. So I thought that scene was interesting in that context and particularly interesting in terms of, I think, the inevitable trip to Sweden.

It's coming. What else? It's such a... I just... This is not a new succession take, but the bench is so deep that Zoe Winters as Carrie... And Marsha,

coming back after. The Marsha comes back. We have Stewie ready to come back. Even Larry Pine wheeled in for this. Oh, yeah. That's right. Just to be in that. Stephen Root was in this episode.

Mm-hmm. I mean, that one just felt like they went to craft services and he was just visiting everyone at HBO. I think his agent talked to Justin Kirk's agent about what can happen when you're on two HBO shows in 48 hours. Although they were both on the previous. Stephen Root was on that episode last season as well. But like, it's such a luxury that they have to be able to just call people like that. to show up for a scene.

I also do want to call out, you know, the actors get a lot of the attention, the writers get a lot of the attention deservedly, but like the production design, someone had to dummy up the Logan piece of paper. Someone had to show to Jesse and the other EPs. Zoe Winters did an interview with Vulture where she talked about knowing exactly

what was going to be spilling out of her bag. Right. Like the prop people are like, she's on these medications. Here's all the stuff that's in her keys and stuff. Specifically, though, what I mean is they had probably five or six versions

of an underline slash crossout. And the specificity of that. Yeah. And it's pencil. When I watch the episode again, I pause to look at it. I'm like, yes, this is 50-50. Yeah.

This is exactly 50-50. And they took the time and they made that decision. Yeah, because it like starts under and then goes into cross. Swoops over. Like is this, did he cross out Roy and write in Kendall Gill, famous University of Illinois shooting card? I do think that one of the most lasting bits of genius of this show

is that the greatest sums of wealth or accrued capital in the world come down to the dumbest things. They come down to missed iPhone calls. They come down to pencil underlines slash crossouts. That it's all farce. Yeah, it's accidentally forwarded emails. it's satellites exploding. I guess that's not really a common office faux pa.

Well, it is for them. Any thoughts on Willa's extended family? Well, let me take that and flip it on you. Okay. I wanted to ask you these two last questions. Did you miss Logan, dramaturgically speaking? And how seriously do we have to take Connor? The two are related,

because they are getting a pretty decent wedge of screen time. Now. Connor will a relationship, Connor's presidential aspirations. Connor now, let's just take it, if I described what these kids do to you, without telling you anything about their personalities

or their past fuckups or anything. And I was like, well, one of them is the CEO of the company and has blown up a satellite. The others never really, really worked for the company and kind of did some work for a politician. This other one went to rehab.

a bunch and has tried to destroy the company multiple times. And then this other guy just got married. He owns his father's house and he's running for president. Isn't Connor the most serious person on this show? Well, I think that what you're picking up on is something that we talked about last week, which is somehow Connor is the most serious human being. Yeah. He's a joke.

But even in this episode, you know, they still, Alan Rock is so good. And they give him a lot of funny business to do, you know, about like, you know, they also say it's smart to avoid realtor fees. But every time they ask him a question, like how he's doing emotionally or whatever, he's very honest about it. He seems very in touch with it and okay.

But again, that's the central crux of the thing. I think being a more successful human on the show almost takes you out of the running to be a successful candidate to run them. Well, I don't necessarily expect him to take over the company or whatever, but I just wonder, If you take away the 25 to 40% of airspace that Brian Cox occupied,

that Logan occupied it as a character, and you are replacing that with, say, a little bit more Frank Jerry Carl stuff, Hugo, Carolina, Stewie's back, he's in the mix. I don't know, there's still a lot of playing time left for Connor, you know, weirdly. Is this Ewing theory? It's not Ewing theory. I'm just saying that, like, I always kind of looked at him, this punchline to the episodes

where it's just like bring Connor in, he'll be disappointed that the family therapy isn't working or that his irrigation system isn't working or whatever. And now all of a sudden, with the presidential election, it just seems like he's consequential to the narrative of the show. Conner's Mikhail Bridges. Really, really good, you know, in a role and then ready to step up when necessary.

You asked a really important question, I think, for the show going forward. So if Connor got traded to the pierces and just got all of a sudden, usage rate went up. Yeah, sorry, Naomi. Like, you're basically benched. I'm curious your thoughts on this, too, because I did not miss Logan Roy in this episode. One thing that I was thinking about in retrospect is they have been experimenting with reduced

playing time or with getting him off the show for a while now. Not just in the sense of, like, he had piss madness and was like off screen. Yeah. He's often separated from the rest of the cast because they've been estranged. Yes. And we talked about this, I think, slightly critically last season in the early stages where the show was basically, he was omniscient and his machinations were happening off screen and filtering down. And so everybody was reacting to whatever way he had caused the winds to blow, which kind of neutered him as an emotional, as a character with emotional agency of his own. I remember that in the early parts of last season.

He was just sort of this omniscient god that was on Mount Olympus causing stuff to happen. I feel like in a way that was Jesse and the writers seeing what it felt like pushing him off marginalizing him because we know, and I'm sure this has been said in interviews that he's done, maybe I haven't listened to the official podcast but I'm sure that it's been

brought up and we know this from talking to people. Interviews that Jesse. Has he done any interviews? We know this from talking to people at HBO. This was the plan. Brian Cox banned from a watch by the way. Whoa. Well, just because he's done too many interviews, you know.

If he came on the watch, I would only ask him about Manhunter. I think that's fair. Yeah. I would only talk to him about Rushmore. Good. And McDonald's commercials. Oh, and X2. He's really good at that.

Oh, that's right. He's real good. General Stryker. Man, that's a great movie. Should we just do a cot 15 on that? Are you serious? X2? You're into that?

I can love that movie. Yeah. Oh, that's the one that has a good reputation. It's last stand. That's like one of the all-time stupers. Yeah, no, X2 is really good. Kai, you like X2? Can't say I've seen that.

Yeah, there you go. I needed to know. She's got to turn on her mic, pull it over to her. So if you're going to make her do that, you've got to do what that was? Kaya, did you see the last chance? That was a trademark Rucillo pause. Just gather in the ball to make the first move to the hoop. We know from people at HBO that this was always the plan.

It wasn't like, it wasn't like Jesse called the executives and was like, so some news, I'm going to be killing off Logan Roy early in the season. It was always going to be sudden. He was always going to use the element of surprise. And I would imagine, and we could hopefully get the chance to ask him this, he probably floated this in his room at the beginning of season two. He probably floated this at the beginning of season three, both because maybe he's always trying to find a way to figure out the shape of the show

and when it was going to end, but also wanted this show to happen and have this show without him. So I was really stunned by how propulsive and fluid and consistent and exciting it felt. watching everyone sweep to try to fill the hole. And to your point, I mean, if we were going to use an NBA metaphor, you could not possibly have a deeper bench. Like even reaching into like, you know, calling Stewie off of the G League at night, you know.

Oh, yeah. I mean, they've got Scars Guard and Justin Kirk and God knows who else waiting in the wings to come back into this show if they need them, you know? It really is a reminder that, as recently as two weeks ago, we were saying, we've seen some of these things before. These are beats that have happened before

and we praise it because it's done brilliantly. That's why I brought up I don't want any more narrative reversals. I want this to be what Kendall is doing. I don't want him to be like... Now I don't want it anymore. Now I don't want it or maybe it should be Rome or I need actually like... He grabbed something there like both in terms of narrative

but also like giving that performance like now like a tunnel to go through and I hope he fucking stays in the darkness. I agree. I think it's a feature bug or lemonade out of lemons thing to say that when the show was repetitive in terms of its emotional relationships, it was brilliant because that's what familial relationships often are. You continue to hold out, you hold hope and you just run at it again and again. And it's whether you want to say it's Lucy with a football or it's just a brick wall that you run into, there's something in us that keeps that hope alive. Like all three of these kids thought their father was going to one day wake up and say, say, I'm proud of you and I love you. Yeah. They all thought that up up until, and in some ways they woke up the day of this episode still thinking that.

And their behavior, you can see that. You know, and there's a version of watching this episode thinking that everything that they do is because they think they're still being watched. And you could go through the moments we talked about, like Shiv, staying strong and walking away from Tom's sort of mushy entreaties. You could look at Roman trying to take care of their dad's girlfriend and show her some decency or old school chivalry or whatever it is that he's doing, or Kendall offering to take out the strap on their head of corporate PR.

They're still wanting his approval, and it might work out for some of them. But at the end of that road, and this is looking ahead, at the end of this journey for Kendall, let's say he gets it and let's say he crushes it. Let's say he crushes it the way he's crushing grief. His dad's not waiting at the end of the season to be like, good job, son, want to have a catch.

Maybe that was the point. Yeah. Maybe he didn't want that. you have to kill him, not get a hug from him. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day,

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But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. Can we start talking about Barry? I can't wait to talk about Barry.

Because I think that this is a good point to jump into Barry. Two episodes went up last night for the final fourth season. Love that about TV. Love when there's a surprise second episode up to. Well, it's like essentially the length of a long episode. Stop being stingy TV. You know what?

Share. Because the first episode after you get through the previously on Barry is like 23 minutes. Yeah. And then the second episode's longer. A lot of reversals in this one. Now, I'm using this term kind of loosely, but this is also something that Hater talked about with deadline. Where it's essentially like when we're talking about it, I'm saying you start your story going in one direction. The audience gets invested with a certain pattern of behavior or decision making on the part of characters.

and then sometimes for the sake of the show, characters change their mind and go back. They go back on this, they go back on that. So this episode of Barry starts with the exception of Barry and Fuchs, like people sort of scattered to the win. Yeah. You know, Hanks in New Mexico with Cristobal and... Looking fabulous.

Sally's in Joplin, Missouri. You know, Cousineau is trying not to get too famous for this case. Janet Moss's dad is sort of saying, you know, let's keep our powder dry here. It's like, this is very sad, you know.

But it's all kind of there. And then over the course of baby, basically one and a half episodes, everybody changes track. And sort of, I don't even know if you would call it reverts to form. But a lot of what this show is seemingly about now is nature versus nurture.

Is this idea of like, who is somebody inherently? and what are the things that they are that are conditioned by the world, that are creations of the world. And I think when you're watching a TV show, I don't know how much it would have affected me if I'd just watched the first episode

and then next week I'd watch the second episode, but it felt a little whiplashy. Yes. This is a deeply psychological show now. Like a lot of this stuff is happening inside of people's heads, a lot of tight close-ups of people in anguish, you know. And it's becoming less and less, less verbal with the exception, I think, of the Hank Christopal stuff.

Like, it's a very kind of internal show now. I agree with you. Although obviously deeply cinematic and amazing to look at. And also, like, we've done the, like, is something wrong with Barry thing before? And then we're like, never mind. It's the best show of the last 10 years. I think this is one of the best shows the last 10 years. I think we were joking last night about putting up too many episodes because, come on.

Think of the podcasters. I just have a lot. That was a really good fucking Suns game, man. I was busy. But I actually was annoyed about it because I watched the first episode on a screener earlier in the day. And I was so blown away by this episode. You're also so proud of yourself for being prepared. I was really pleased.

I mapped this out to the minute. And also, I was still probably pretty righted out, to be honest with you. I was just crushing protein bowls and watching three screens at once. when they pull you in front of the congressional hearing on television criticism and they're like have you ever and I just snap three pencils at once taking any supplements to aid your television viewing yeah the answer is yeah and I would do it again

all of that is true but I was also a little bit let down because the second episode of this season is a brilliant episode of Barry that is absolutely in tune with what it is now and what it wants to be and where it's going. The first episode was astonishing. I was so impressed by this. I was moved by it. I was surprised by it. I thought it was art. I really thought that the directorial choices that Bill Hader made were stunning. And stunning in the sense that you could tell, but we also know from who he is in interviews, that he is a real film rat. He just, he loves cinema. Yes. He is a deep recall for the scenes and the images and the cinematography and color patterns that

have moved him. And you can feel that in the sense that when watching this episode, you're like, oh, he likes Buhnwell or he likes Fellini or like all the different things that he's mushing into this one thing, as you can with all great artists. Like everyone's just an amalgamation of their influences. But what was so stunning to me about it was the light and depth and confident touch with which he switched between them. There was no heavy hand of influence. It was completely light. you know, while really kind of not pioneering. I don't want to overrate one 26-minute episode, although I think it's hard to overrate.

But it was a completely different storytelling language that we're used to seeing on TV. Yeah, and are you referring to a lot of the like sort of surreal elements of like Sally being in the jail yard, recreating the first time he sees her, basically? Yes, but then also the way that the way the sound design goes from her being asleep on the plane to being awake on the plane. and the wide vistas of the flashback

just effortlessly go into the prison yard and the FBI box. You know, these very strong aesthetic choices that in the wrong hands would be jarring or affected. Is this a confessional booth? You know, what is this? Yeah. It was just really, really stunning to me.

Sound design, editing, all of it. And the scenes were so short. You know, they were just these like little tone poems. It was such confidence. in it. And you know what it really you should say something because otherwise I'm just going to keep going. But remember our favorite show

from a couple years ago, Laburo? This is relevant. This isn't like the Tanazaki book that I was talking about last week. I don't know that. It was like in the top eight things you said. But you had one thing last week where I was like, holy shit this guy. I know. Yeah, the moon thing.

I got nothing like that this week. So I'm just going to I'm sorry, I had the hair thing. That was good. I'm just going to flood the zone with stuff. I don't actually have a point. I just think that those words sound like. Yeah, they really do. There's just a one small difference between them that, you know, I'll leave to the listeners to puzzle out. But if I'm like, Charlie from It's Always Sunny, and that's just how I spell it. I think that's also fine. Hair, that's the same word. Right? Yeah. It also means rabbit. So we love this show. You guys should watch it. It's streaming on AMC Pluse in French, I think.

French spy show, absolute genius. One of the things that was really, really remarkable about it. Don't Clooney's remaking it. We'll see. But it was announced as part of the new little bit of showtime seasoning in your Paramount Plus. I was sorry, I don't mean to be snarky. There was no writer or anything announced,

so who knows how far away that actually is. One of the most remarkable things about that show is that showrunner, Eric Roshant, who was on our podcast and was really cool about it. Like all showrunners had a very specific vision for the show. He was in control of it. He wrote the storylines. He wrote a lot of the scripts, et cetera, et cetera.

but really felt like he wanted, didn't trust himself to end the show purely because he was too in love with the characters or too fond of them. So he did the very radical thing of bringing in very prominent French director, Jacques Odiard, and saying, I've driven the car up to the precipice, it's up to you to Thelma and Louisa off of it,

and I stand by your artistic choices. Okay. That was his vision of what he could do with the show. What I feel about Perry is that Bill Hader did that to himself. Yeah. Like, this, the journey, from season one to four is really unprecedented

in terms of watching someone grow as not just as a performer because that probably is underrated what he's doing on the show and he probably would underrated himself and privileged the other things he's doing but in terms of risk-taking and just

taking chances, pushing things, seeing how far this rubber band can go before it snaps and I just think we're in uncharted territory because remember when this was a very, very clever show that was very... Hitman became an actor.

But it was very inside jockey about like North Hollywood and wanting to make it. And that was 100% true to what the show was. And now it is 100% irrelevant except not. Because what it did is stripped away

everything. And every season ends with them putting themselves in an impossible place. How do you have a light comedy where you love this guy who's trying to go from hitman to actor if he kills one of the truly

good people on the show? Story-wise, yes. But what it's also done is it just stripped away all the nonsense, like some sort of Zen priest, and it's just like, oh, people are animalistic and vicious and just want to be loved more than anything. They just want to be loved. And sometimes we try to become actors, to become famous to fill that hole. Or sometimes we kill people because our father figure

told us to. But at the end, we're just these like gaping black holes like they are in succession. And that first episode, I'm just really shaken up by it. And the second episode? It was great. Great episode of television. But then in the second episode. No, but the second episode, had some of the stuff that at the beginning of, yeah, the beginning of the last season jarred me more like the Dave and Busters bit, but that was really fucking funny, but it was so funny.

Listen. And the fact that like they're doing this like 360 pan to with Crystal Ball and Hank doing it and then Hank has to like run back to be in the right blocking for the scene, but it's like he's doing it on purpose. It's not like Bill is like, oh, now he needs to be over here.

You don't, we don't need to do clickbait stuff and be like one thing is good and one thing isn't. But these two episodes of this show, I think, are my favorite thing from this year. I think, like, it's just jumped. There you go, dog. I was trying to be just like...

No. Sometimes, you know, I sometimes, like, throw stuff out, like, just for tension, you know? Yeah, no, I know. And I do find the plotting of TV shows, especially the more I... If I'm watching a ton of them,

which, you know, I feel like I do, to be a little bit like, we're doing this to extend the story. You know, you're changing your mind about something. And so in the course of two episodes, I think Barry, Fuchs is going to set Barry up, falls in love with Barry again, then gets betrayed by Barry.

Barry, that was a huge turn. Barry forgives Fuchs, fucks Fuchs over. Hank needs to break Barry out, decides he needs to kill Barry. Sally hates Barry, goes to prison to see him and decides that she's probably only safe with Barry. Cousineau is like, I've done something purely good with my life now, and now how can I corrupt that by trying to become famous? off of the back of it.

But the thing when he gets caught at Canter's doing the... Can I tell you something about that shot of canters? Yeah. You know I go to Cantors? Not infrequently. Yeah. Because you're a hypebeats. You're always up at Supreme first.

Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. Yeah. What's the weird sex shop next to Cantors? Don't, don't look at me and ask me that on my God. Have you never been to Canters? I go to Canters. I love Cantors. But there's that leather store next to it.

I respect it because I don't feel like that happens enough. Now everything is like vape shops. I feel like we need more... More leather shops. Outtray. Like, the... There's some darkness here, but it's not just about, like, smoking bowls. But you can also get Ruggola.

Yeah, I get it. That's like New York has that. You know, like when you're walking down the street. Sex shops and bagels. You're like, deli, sex shop. Right. Dwayne Reed. Anyway, my point is, is that Bill has such like, a hater has such like a very specific view

and vision of this California that this show is set in. Yeah. That even Cantors looks different to me. And I've fucking been to Cantors. And it's like, I don't spend as much time in the valley as this show does. But I was like, oh, my God. Like, I don't even know if I've ever seen the sky look that way canters. Yeah, the light and the sky.

It is completely aesthetically integrated show. And then also just it's these little touches that the real ones, the great ones know how to do. Like Patrick Fishler, great actor, loved him on Mad Men, loved him every time he shows up. Mahal and Drive. He's the Vanity Fair writer. Yeah. That's a great casting choice. That makes really interesting sense.

And when you see him, you're interested. His face, his reaction, Kuzino's soaked and sweat. He does this one-man performance of all of Barry. There will be his only comment on the matter. Oh, my God. But this is all off the record. It was so, it's so, so funny.

But I also, I'm impressed by two things. One is, it's really quite a double feature of fucked up parenting to watch these episodes, like the Sally stuff in Joplin. I mean, those scenes were viscerally hard to watch. Yeah, I thought they were pretty funny too. And really funny, though.

That's the thing. We're having the panic attack in the car and the mom being like, can I get an order of date or times? But that's what I mean. There's different ways to do this. And both Succession and Barry are masterclasses and being like, we are, we've been therapy, guys. Yeah. We understand the stakes here and like where the fences fall and the terrain. And we understand the damage generationally that we do to.

to each other and these patterns were stuck into, and she went back to Joplin, just like we were talking about how Kendall still wants to be loved. Like, they keep doing it, but you can be funny about it. And you can be funny without making fun. Like, Sally's in a nightmare. Sally's also ludicrous. It's an incredible balancing act. And to your point, though, about the reversals, I agree about that.

There's a version of it where you kind of become a fan of the managing. Like, I know I've been doing a lot of sports metaphors lately, but it's because I've been listening to a lot of sports podcasts. because I've been driving a lot. Full disclosure. But the, you know, like, you could think about, like, Philly's manager Rob Thompson, who's just like, I have 14 clods who can only strike out or hit home runs,

and I have to try to make this work into some sort of coherent narrative. So far the season, not going great. But you could similarly... Well, two of those clods have deeply injured themselves. One, yes, that's true. You're very... You're very wait and see about baseball. I just hate it when people are like,

These guys eat shit. It's like, well, they're two best players. I do suck or hurt, you know? Oh, Trey Turner's hurt? I'm just saying recent Bryce being out. Let's just, yeah. I know. It throws off the whole item.

Listen, you could look at Barry or at any kind of serialized show like that. How would you like it if I put you on a pitch clock without telling you, you know? You tried that two weeks ago and people got very freaked out. People were talking. You could look at any serialized show or a show like Barry that way being like, well, all right. We've put everyone here, and now I've got to, and I've ended up with a show with a character like Noho Hank who was supposed to die in the pilot, and, you know, and Christobal who really worked and popped, and that made sense for us, and we've got to fold him in. How are we going to balance this and have this all work narratively in a way that is satisfying? Because we really just making it up as we went along. You could praise the management of it, because in small strokes, you see the stitching. And you're like, the Sally Visit is what gives Barry.

another false dream to fall in love with, which causes him to walk away from the father figure love and do everything. And betray everyone for this person. Because he's like, I'm going to get her with me, right? We can have a picket fence and witness protection program or whatever it's going to be.

You get into the fine details. It works. And you can be like good management. But I also just think that sometime during the pandemic, like, they tapped, hater tapped into some different vein.

Well, it's, I don't know how many shows will ever get that the season, third season was written and ready to go, the pandemic happens, and he rewrites the third season, and who knows what happens to the fourth season because of that. But he had it, he had it done also, right? Like, I think that they had... I think that they decided to do it concurrently, the writing of it, but I think he rewrote the third season before they went into production on it.

Right. I just think that... We should probably listen to Bill and they'll talk to Sean Venetcy on the Prestu TV podcast to hear about this more. It's a great plug. I think we should. But I just, separate apart from how much I enjoyed this, and I clearly really loved and enjoyed it, I just think that it's so emblematic of such amazing, rare things in TV of watching artistic growth happen in real time, of taking real chances, but having mastery over them when you take them. Nothing feels sloppy. Nothing feels out of sorts. It's earned everything. Just that to have a character as broadly comic, as Noho Hank and then have his nightmare in that premiere, you know, where he's once again changed. The tiger. The tiger.

But Barry is there and what Barry means for him and be able to make that serious. All the sort of things that I was, a year ago, we were in this, we certainly weren't in this room a year ago, but whenever the season three premiered, we were zooming it. And we were like, is it too funny and also sometimes sad?

Wasn't it? That's just 2022. We weren't, I was like, I saw you. in 2022. We saw each other. We didn't do in-person pods, yeah. In this, literally in this room. In this room.

And all that time, Kaya could have watched X2. There's a lot of downtime, Kaya. Just saying. Yeah, what were you doing? But, yeah, that was really wrong because it was building

to something, you know, in a really, really an interesting way. I was, it's crazy that these shows are back-to-back. the third best show on television. Andrew at the PM. Well, that's Mondays.

No, the third best show is 100 foot wave, man. We can't get to 100 foot wave today. Woo. God, that's good, too. But we have a lot stuff to talk about. I kind of want to save the Mac stuff for Thursday. Yeah, that's fine. We'll stay to the indie.

You know, I feel like, are we over leveraged on HBO? On this podcast? Yeah. We got Mrs. Davis coming. That's true. Peacock. Coming through. And Top Chef.

We still talk about that. We have to talk about Top Chef. Got a lot of opinions on it. Yes. Yeah. Like, has anyone ever made a sandwich before? That's one of my questions. I really, I could do ten minutes on that.

Tom fucked everybody up by being like, make it be like commensurate with this Downton Abbey. Oh, with this, the manner, yeah. Oh. Just like fucking let them cook, dude. Don't be like, oh, by the way, it has to be as nice as this place. I don't think they've ever had a sandwich before. I really, we can get into the sandwich gate.

Okay. Thursday, we're going to talk about sandwiches. We're going to talk about surfing. we're going to talk about Max. Max, no longer HBO, RIP. I think it's good. People can wait a week for our hunting.

And we're also going to talk about True Detective Night Country and how you're coming to the snow cap mountains with me. Has any trailer ever been more made for you? Every so often there's one of these things. I was thinking we could do something fun, which is re-watch season one together. Wow, that's what you were thinking.

What would you consider that me cashing in if I asked you to do that with me? Well, considering you watched a Miyazaki movie, for me, which we all appreciated. That was really cool. You're definitely in a position to ask me to watch something. Remember when you were like, dude, my car won't start on sunset and I just came and like thugged it out with you and got your keys and stuff? That is true. That is true. On Mike, Chris is tough as nails. But off Mike, you'll do

anything. You're teddy bear. Thanks to Kai McMullen for producing us. It's great to have her in the studio. It's great to see you. I'm so glad you're feeling better. Thanks. Yeah. The drugs worked. Good job, science. Let's just wrap it up there. And shout out to all the sex shops that are persevering in this economy. Yeah, I mean,

should they start advertising on this podcast? That was the sort of foundational, that was like one of the first podcast advertising staples was sort of sexually explicit toys and stuff. Oh, yeah. Remember that used to be like Marin? Yeah, Marin used to do a lot of, like Adam and Eve or something.

Yeah, no free ads. Don't throw that out there. You never know. Bleep that, Kyle, please. See you Monday. All right, Thursday. Yeah. Am I getting it sick again?

That was freaky. Let's see you Thursday.