The Watch - Summer Mailbag: The Influence of ‘Lost,’ Prestige TV Fatigue, and Reading Recommendations

Episode Date: July 21, 2025

Chris and Andy crack open the mailbag to answer questions like what the lasting influence of ‘Lost’ is on modern TV (16:57), whether we might be entering an age of prestige TV fatigue (33:00), and what they have been reading lately (47:55). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Video Producer: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris Ron. Ryan. I am an editor at the rigor.com. And joining me in the studio, it's Andy Greenwald. Oh, more modest today. We're modest today because we have a modest little mailbag we're going to do. We're in a little bit of like an

in-between time. Andy with shows, you know, we were coming off of the bear. We have too much on Netflix, which I think we'll get to at some point. We have, there's actually a couple of shows on Netflix that I was... You're doing the secret with that one. Okay. You're putting it into the world that we're going to be talking about it.

I'm just telling people. I'm watching developing situations across streaming networks. The watch is still, our mission is still television. But you know, there's a couple of shows out there that I'm going to try and get caught up on during my short vacation. Eastern Gate on Max

comes, on HBO Max comes highly recommended. Families like ours, which is recommended to us through our mailbox as like a kind of Eternot but for Denmark. Oh. Is interesting. It's Thomas Vinterberg.

Another Round Director. Oh, hell, yeah. Okay. So that's an interesting series I want to check out. But we have this moment before Alien Earth, before the paper,

before a couple of other shows that I know we're looking forward to where I thought we could do a mailbag. I think it was a great thought, especially because, man, email is where it's at. You know, email is still... You doubted the email,

but it's really good. Well, I didn't doubt it. I mean, as people who listen to the pod regularly know, you guys had the no good emails filter set? It was tough. Kaya and I mistakes were made.

I don't know what spam filter we had on but essentially I was like damn I only got like five emails. I've been doing this pot a long time. It turns out there were hundreds of emails

they were just in my spam filter. First of all, thank God you found them because these are exceptional questions and they're very kind and thoughtful and I look forward

to getting into them. I also am so happy we're doing it this way and not your alternative suggestion which was just responding to Spotify comments which which, you know, I think probably would have been a spike-year,

spike-year episode of the show. Sure. Why don't we start here? This is a little bit of a backwards-looking question, but I think it's a good one. It's from Alex. I've been listening since Grantland. Thank you so much for doing that.

Thank you for your service, Alex. I'm turning 40 this month and realize I've been listening to you guys talk for more than a third of my life. Hold on. Can we just... Okay. All right. Go on. What is the most memorable?

Rememberable exchange you've had on the show, whether or with a guest or with each other, or is there a bit of wisdom that has stuck with you? For me, it's Andy's conversation with Jenny Lewis and the Voyager era. If there's any way I can still listen to this one, please share. First of all, I would love to know what the... Is that on the Andy Greenwald show? Podcast? Podcast show?

Yeah. It sure was, Chris. Not only was that from those Halcyondees back in when it was still under the... Well, yeah, it was when it was still under Grantland. but that was the interview where when I sat down with Jenny, she sang my name, which we then used as part of the intro. Oh. Wasn't that nice?

I thought that was Churches music. No, so there was two eras. Granlin era, Andy Greenwald podcast. Jenny singing my name was the opening of it. Then when we relaunched for the Ringer era, Churches was kind enough to compose original music. Who did the music for Stake the only ending? my friend John Carlo Volcano

cool this is just great why don't you just interview me for a while anyway I know that you would love it I have so many takes to get off about myself I that was a great one so but all right well do you want to handle

you want to tackle I will say that the most memorable run of guests that we had was definitely during the pandemic when all of a sudden all publicists were like my client is pretty avail and would love to chat with another human being about anything, but also the show that they have coming out.

So that was the run of months where we had like Paul Meskell, Kristen Bell, Hugh Grant, Kate Winslet twice. And Tony Dalton from a, like what seemed like a jungle in his backyard. But also from his iPhone, which he was holding like below his face. This is the other thing was that the celebs were not like, they didn't have home podcast studios. Yeah. So they would often be like, yeah, I can jump on whatever. and it was like, yes, because you're doing this from FaceTime.

But everybody had the Zoom app, so it was working. So that was like a very funny, very humanizing stretch, I thought, for a lot of our guests. Obviously, Kate Winslet stands out. We've had a lot of people, I think honestly Sam S-mail has been the person that I've gleaned the most wisdom from. Because I think it's interesting to have somebody whose work we obviously revere, who you've worked with in the past, who also challenges some of the, of our priors and some of our deeply held convictions about storytelling, et cetera. He challenged his way off of the show.

He sure did. First of all, because people do conspiracy theorize about this. That is not true. He is still welcome. And he also still berates us off Mike when we see him. Yeah. With a question like this, I always have to shout out The Great Almost was, which we have talked about in the past.

But the fact that there was a moment in 2016 when we were knee-deep in. in negotiations for President Barack Obama to be on our show? I just really don't think it was that deep. I don't think we were any way. I think it was ankle deep in negotiations. I think it was toe deep. Yeah. But that was so, so funny to me.

What a time when he was just like, I'm almost done to explore some alternative media. He's continued to do so. He was building the groundwork. But do you think that we would be doing the show for higher ground if we had just spoken to him once? I don't know, man. I went back to that email and we're just like, you know, We like to have a segment on the show called Who the fuck was that guy?

And the president could weigh in on which member of the fucking Stark lineage he's not familiar with. Luckily, there was nothing else for him to work on. I definitely, well, first of all, let's leave for a moment because I do want to talk about which moments

you've enjoyed most with me. No, both of us together without guess. But since the listener asked about the solo stuff, as far as I can tell, every single thing we did for ESPN is gone. It's a huge bummer. Briefly, I could, like, some things got copied to YouTube because of fandoms. I thought there were some sound clouds, like, floating around and stuff like that,

not to draw the ire of the Disney Corporation. No, but, like, the Rami Malick interview I did back in the day is, like, very much on YouTube. You have, like, a crystal clear recall for the things that you did so. It's amazing. They were very meaningful. No, I did want to say that, like, I don't remember. what was, I wonder what the advice was from the Jenny Lewis podcast, because that was the podcast where she talked about the advice that Ryan Adams gave her about how like, get the fuck out of here and go home and write Wonderwall. Yeah.

Which, you know, worked out for him. But there was a run when I did get to talk to like all of, not all, but like many of my heroes like Lindsay Buckingham and I and Tony Bourdain. And I wish that I had that audio. Yeah, you got the memories. Or like the first interview I ever did for the show when it was still, when it was us, but I did. was George Pelicanos. Oh, yeah. And he's been on since,

but that was an incredible honor to be able to do that. And then the early, early ringer solo pods where I had like Trevor Noah for a really long, really good conversation. I love that one.

And you know, you know, the other one that was really good. Is that what I'm hearing? No, he's asking, like, good interview experiences. He has like one little parenthetical at the end. You can talk about the time

that you spoke to Lewis Pullman. That's true, without you, because you didn't watch out of range. No, but also, we were talking about this recently. There was the time that you did Jeremy Allen White solo

because you were like, I checked out the screeners for that new FX show. I guess I'm going to talk to the guy from Shameless and I was like, yeah, go for it.

I wanted you to get a little shine. Yeah, I mean, look, certain people gravitate towards different hosts. I don't know what to tell you. I think... You have Jenny Lewis.

I have Jeremy Allen White. I think, let history be the judge. Yeah. I think the... Anytime time into, because it has been on with us, is all-timer. Anytime Jakey J. Johnson's

on with us is amazing. I do think maybe we peaked with the slap. That's a long time ago. We've been a long down... We've been living out on the glories of that short-lived NBC show now. Well, it had a kind of freedom and purity that Barack Obama had when he

was seeking out podcast opportunities in the last year in office. Do you know what I mean? Like, just the fact that we were completely making it up and just meeting in... We weren't even meeting in Midtown then. We were We were doing it coast to coast, right? You were in California. And there was just an absolutely absurd NBC show that we just devoted weeks to.

I enjoyed that. I also always enjoyed talking to creators, showrunners, writers, like multiple times throughout the process of either a season or throughout seasons of shows. So getting to talk to Conrad Kay and Mickey Down about industry, getting to talk to Jesse Armstrong about succession, and getting to talk to Tony Gilroy about Andor has been really enlightening.

and also incredibly, like, entertaining for me. Catherine asks, Hi, Andy, Chris and Kaya, love the watch, and am in need of advice. I am in need of advice. I am a huge consumer of longer, quote, standalone media, movies and books, but really struggle with sticking with episodic viewing,

i.e. TV shows. In the binging age, I have a lot of trouble getting myself to actually finish a season of TV, even if all the episodes are out. Weekly releases are much easier for me to consume, which is great with the movement away from binge drops with the pit and what,

Lotus. I think this is because the eventification of the episode dropping makes it seem more exciting to my brain. The issue, however, arises with shows that are already out and already going. I haven't been able to get through the bare severance or and or because I didn't watch them when they were airing. Now it feels like I'm too far behind to catch up and it feels overwhelming to start when I know that I have trouble sticking with shows that are already out. But I also want to watch these shows and know what the hype is about. Do you have any advice for starting and sticking with TV shows when the sheer amount of content and lack of weekly releases feels overwhelming. I think you're describing a modern condition here, Catherine.

I don't think that this is something that you should be ashamed of for one thing. You certainly don't seem to be. But I'm just saying like there's like if you were like an avid or aggressive media consumer, I think that where you're at is a pretty normal place to be, which is feeling overwhelmed by choice and overwhelmed by the labor of keeping up with it, but maybe not getting, I think ultimately you have to be honest with yourself, maybe you're just not getting something out of TV that you get out of books and movies. I would like to speak to that, but please continue. I, just to share, have found this very funny thing happening. You know, I was like, home alone this week,

not like Kevin from home alone, but anyone tried to break in? Any of the dogs you were complaining about last week? I had some time to myself this week. And I find this new thing happening where I'll be reading a book or watching a movie or something or watching TV. And I just can't stop thinking about either the next thing I'm going to be doing or what I could be doing instead. And it's that kind of, I definitely chalk that up to scrolling. I chalk that up to lists. I chalk it up to, you know, constantly being aware of all this stuff. I think there's an age thing too where you've kind of maybe past this point of like, oh, everything is new and amazing.

and a wonder, and you're now like, what vibe do I want to go for? What experience do I want to make? Do I like, do I want to be watching a Western? Do I want to be watching a gangster movie? Do I want to watch like a really, like, trenchant Chinese drama? You know, like, what is, there's so much stuff to choose from that I think I find myself getting a little bit distracted by my own brain while watching stuff.

And I think my advice to Catherine is just like, of the shows you're talking about, like severance and and and and or and the bear like I think I would say that andor probably has the most reward to risk hit payoff like almost every episode of andor has

something really valuable to to glean from it but this may just be a situation where like you know you're you're finding that episodic television is not the thing that you want to invest your time in and I don't think that's a big deal but thank you for listening to the pod

and just keep doing it. Yeah. At least download every episode. Benny Jeserate voice. Obligation is the joy killer. Like, nothing takes enjoyment out of any exercise than, like, having to do it. It's true. But for a second, I was like, who's Benny Jessus.

I know, right? Benjamin Jesuit. He's my attorney. Uh-huh. And I think that's a really, real thing. The sense of, like, FOMO or needing to keep up. or needing to be a part of the conversation. It's a struggle if it's your job as a podcaster.

It shouldn't be a trickle-down struggle for everyone else. I think the work that's good will be there for you to find it. But I also think it's really important as any kind of level of consumer of culture to remember that it's not supposed to be homework, to remember that finding pleasure in this stuff is an essential part of it. And it's not wrong to be like this feels like I'm not in the spirit to why. American primeval tonight or whatever, like, just because these dummies in the podcast said it was worth it, it's okay to reconnect with something that you know you like. I mean, it's the thing,

it's the example that I think we use almost too frequently. But like, every time I finish a long novel, and I'm like, oh, I'm really, I really did it. That muscles flex. Like, I can't wait to tackle something major. My eye just turns to Elmore Leonard's stuff on the shelf and be like, but I need a pallet cleanser right now. I just want something that feels good. Um, I think it's, also is part of rewiring our brain. Because I think the scrolling and stuff is just so dangerous for me, for anyone, and just how it sort of aggressively rewires what we expect from things and the time frame with which we expect from things.

And if you start thinking of your TV as the place you have to go to, oh, God, I got to catch up or I got to get through two episodes of this tonight. You should do it for pleasure, yeah. Forget it and watch your favorite movie again. Or, and just remember the sensation. And I feel that way for all these mediums that we engage with. Like there's a time to strap on the content boots and be like, I'm going to see what this does to me so I can have a conversation. But there's also times to be like, let's just go.

Yeah, I'd also say that the way we make our podcast is so that the pot is there for you when you do watch it. Now, obviously, like we'd like you to join us every twice a week, every week and go along for the ride. We certainly assume you do in terms of inside jokes. But if Andy and I were normal people with different jobs who made this pot, I don't think we would watch four Bepp bare episodes in a day. You know, like, that's not something that you would do if you had like a bunch of other stuff going on in your life. And obviously, we find it challenging at times anyway.

I also, I think we should remember this and we should consider how we can program towards this. But like, as dumb as we were to Miss Chernobyl when it was on, the experience of it being there for us to be like, holy shit, this is a masterpiece and engage with it on our own, admittedly, painfully delayed timetable was good. I think my favorite part about doing this pod aside from getting to spend time with you is not necessarily commenting on like the biggest show

that's on right now or the most important show that's on right now, it's like finding other stuff. I think that the discovery aspect of it has been the most enjoyable thing over the last couple of years. And actually in the inbox, you can see people being like, thanks for turning me onto the Shorzie or thanks for turning me on to Ethernaut.

It's so much stuff out there that I'm happy to be a little bit of a kind of recon gang going out there and checking stuff out for people. And I think often it's that stuff that's been overlooked or, you know, yet to be discovered that gives us the charge that we're looking for because it's not like we're almost obligated to watch something because it's like a big HBO Sunday night show or something like that. So it's an interesting situation we find ourselves in. Catherine, Jason says, whenever you guys do another mailback.

It's now, Jason. Often on the show you mention how basically everything that was once popular has been IP mind in the current era of TV production. I believe it. But that leads me to wonder, why has there never been any serious discussion of a lost continuation, reboot whatever?

That show is an absolute phenomenon in the not so distant past, and yet nobody has been publicly kicking those tires, at least not to my knowledge. What gives? I would hypothesize that the series finale was so poorly received, though I think that really,

it was really good in 80% of the population literally misunderstood the point, that it is sourced, the thought of bringing it back. But has there ever been any show that is more prime for picking and choosing which era of the original you would want to dive into for reimagining? I would pitch them doing an anthology where there are episodes' arcs devoted to whatever part of the island they would want to, not filling in gaps and answering questions, but just telling cool stories in a cool setting. I think this is a very interesting question because, you know, Jason's right that we've been

talking a lot about how everything is fodder for a reboot or a reimagining. But the real Hall of Fame Mount Rushmore TV shows of the Golden Era are kind of revered and left to be.

And I was wondering if you know, like a lot of the times when we bring back TV shows, there's an active fan service to it. Say it's like Veronica Mars or Party Down or Scrubs of just coming back. It's rare that a full reimagining takes place.

I wonder whether some texts are too sacred, but you obviously get a situation like Better Call Saul where I think there was a lot of skepticism about like, you're going to go back to Breaking Bad after you just ended it. But not a reboot note. No. Continuation. I mean, I think that like AMC did a reboot of the prisoner, you know,

and I think it had its fans, but it didn't really connect. And I think one of the reasons for that is sort of at the heart of the question about lost, which is, lost has been cannibalized and stripped for parts in ways that I feel like we don't even realize. Like the last 20 years of television, if not culture, we're living in lost world. Yeah. So much so that to return to the original would feel like almost like a skeleton. Like so much of it has been like everything from things that we talk about, like dark doesn't exist without loss.

Severance doesn't exist without loss. those are just off the top of my head examples. I think the other issue with loss specifically, and then I do want to get into the idea of some of these other sacred cows. I don't know if White Lotus exists without Lost in some ways. Well, yeah, I mean, Lost is, I think that's smart. I think Lost is the poster child for good reason

for our, what is now, like an almost fanatical parissocial relationship with the television shows that we consume. The idea of fandom, I mean, that existed before. That television without pity was roaring and raging years before. you know, in the years before Lost, he ever premiered. But the sense of a television show being a, in that case, weekly conversation slash talent show in front of a skeptical crowd looking for things that they're looking for and then almost being in conversation with each other, that was pretty unprecedented.

The public face of the showrunner that Damon and Carlton had to become put that job on the map and made people aware of there's someone actually making these types of decisions who you can engage with. through various filters over time. I also think that Lost, in a way, is a cautionary tale. It's a celebration of a certain type of creativity, but a cautionary tale for an industry-driven reboot. Because, okay, so what is the origin of story of Lost? It's not like there was just one simple idea that we could just do,

other than the fact that the president of ABC at the time, I think it was Steve McPherson was just like, huh, Desert Island would be cool. Yeah. And then they had a relationship with J.J. Abrams, and they talked to him, and he was like, yeah, I'll do it. And they were like, great, millions of dollars are available to you. If you come up with a plan, he called Damon, they came up with a couple ideas.

They made up characters on the fly. They made up characters in the audition rooms when actors didn't fit the people that they thought they were reading for, but they wanted to bring in anyway. There was no plan. There were documents after the pilot was done. There were new documents when the writers changed after the second year. But it was a living, breathing thing in the way the television is not anymore. and due to the money involved probably can't ever be again.

I've said it before on the podcast. Like that in the moment, creative, living and breathing, making mistakes, recalibrating, Nikki and Paolo, nope, we're going this way instead, is as much a contributor to what made the show transcendent as to what made the show infuriating. Yeah. It's a flash.

Like we just, we don't make culture that way anymore, partly because it is a big question mark on the ledger sheets of the streaming tech companies that own all this shit. It just, you can't do it. That said, I'm not against the idea of a single chestnut of an idea, like an evergreen, go back to Greek tragedy

and it's just like, oh, people go off, like The Odyssey or whatever, some simple idea saying, here are creatives we like, what does this mean to you? Go. Yeah, it's funny. Because Lost had that bridge

between the 22 episode fall to spring season of traditional television to eventized bifurcated season, short and season. To let us end this and tell a story. Yes. But within those first few seasons

they covered so much ground that I don't need a Dharma initiative spin-off. Or like, what if we did a little bit of like the backstory on that. Like, I actually feel like it's a pretty complete statement. And even the end is like a complete,

it's a realization of the things that they wanted to say with the show. It's also, what was the mythology? Like, I was obsessed and I love it. But it is, there's parts of it that are baggy. Damon will say there are parts of it that are baggy. We still don't know who shot at them from the other outrigger. Like, they left a lot of stuff. They left a lot of holes.

mystery, I think, is what makes good art. But I think that the idea of a mystery box show, like the way that severance is received and discussed. I don't think that I honestly don't know if loss would be able to survive in the current climate of like speculation and frame by frame analysis. And also like that weird literal thing that people have now, it's like, well, they would never do that because, you know, they were too far from drinkable water. You know? There's people that, like, they had to come up with a reason why Hurley. wasn't losing weight. Like people were... Yeah. So

the reason I... One of the reasons I keep up bringing Lost is because, you know, and that show is not for everyone. Sorry, the reasons I keep bringing up dark and that show is not for everyone. But it really did seem like the Germanic response to the bagginess of a show like Lost. Every single screw was turned super tight.

Every angle was 90 degrees. It ended in a way that is like... It lives up to its title. Let's put it that way. But that, to me is the best expression of what it seems like sometimes fandom or executives want, which is everything neat and tidy buttoned up three seasons, we're going to do it and take everything to its logical conclusion. I love the show, but I think that there was a lot more

error. Did you just stick the Lost Signal ending? No, he never did. Okay. We're saving it for season two, right, Kaya? Would have been super controversial. Do you have an official opinion on this finale of Lost? I don't think I've seen it since aired. So I don't even really remember a lot of it other than some the revelations that kind of come out. Dan says, hi, love the pod for your mailbag. I've been thinking about this. We often hear about shows that were ahead of their time. It couldn't find an audience or got canceled. Homicide Life on the Street, My So Called Life, etc. What about recent shows that arrive too late? Shows that would have popped before the streaming era of fracture viewership and changed habits? Is there a 2025 that you think would

have killed it in 2010 or 2015. Good question. This is a great question. And this question kind of led me to a theory. Is the, I don't want to say highbrow, because it suggests it's not kind of gross, but has comedy been the thing that suffered the most with the explosion of streaming TV? Because I think comedy was something that I looked for programming the most. If one comedy was good on any night of a TV network, I would watch the next comedy because it was on the same network or maybe it had some sort of connective tissue, different world Cosby kind of thing. We often talk about the NBC Thursday night thing, but I would go as far as to recall the Comedy Central run where it was like Broad City. Yeah, the Ken Alterman era at Comedy Central is outrageous.

I don't remember. Workaholics, Detroiters. Yeah. So it's like this. basically you had this patent of quality, you would be like, I'll try anything on this network, especially this kind of show. So when I see shows like adults or Dave

or what we do in the shadows, and I think that they're modestly successful in their own ways, I wonder if they would be much bigger deals if FX had like a comedy night. They honestly, for all I know do, I just don't watch FX on cable anymore. Usually when we talk about the development teams

being like the elite development networks slash teams being HBO and FX. Generally what we're talking about is, you know, attention grabbing drama series. Sure. But they're also the places that consistently, maybe the only places left that consistently develop comedies of a really high order. And I think Amy Gravid is the person at HBO. And I think it's, as far as I know, like at FX, it's still, it's Nick Rad and Gina Balian and the team that's been there for a long time.

I think those are still both. really consistent deliverers of really high-quality comedy. But when we say, like, it would have been bigger. I mean, I think there's two different ways to look at it. There's the, like, NBC comedy nights on Thursdays or the ABC family comedies that just became the shows that everyone watched and talked about. And to a degree, Abbott Elementary is the best version of that that we have now. It is big.

It made stars. The other version of it is the Comedy Central version, which is lower-budget launching stars. creating brands. I think FX has done really well in that lane, whereas I see HBO, like with everything since the merger, they are trending a little bit bigger. I mean, HBO just outbid other places for in-house, admittedly, Warner Brothers. But I think they were in a bidding war over it for a Bill Lawrence, Steve Carell show.

Yes. Right, that is coming up. But also they've got Nathan Fielder and other trying to, you know, attention grabbing. Larry David is doing a show with the Obamas, right? Yeah. Sketch comedy show. So they're still working, they're in a really big space.

I think that, to me, the things that came to mind for this, I don't want to cut you off if you had any other comedy thoughts. No. Sometimes, if the first place I went with this was AMC original programming.

Like interview with a vampire? Not their current programming, which I think is working for them. I think they found the niche, but again, this is a few years ago, but like Lodge 49. The Lodge 49 era. The, what was the name of the,

the Bob Odenkirk campus comedy that was going to be his follow-up to, Oh, right. The sound, one of my favorite things on podcast is the sound of everyone in the room typing to get it. We'll figure it out. I can't remember it. But the point being, these were shows that in a different era, would have been cast differently, not the Odenkirk part,

but like everything around them, they would have been budgeted differently and they would have been received differently. You know, they both worked fine for what they were, but they were delivered into an ecosystem that had already moved past this type of shows where people were like willing to give it a chance. And I feel like there's a bunch of those, you know,

that just feel increasingly like, yeah, this is very high quality. This is very good intentions and creative teams behind it, but just greenlit at the wrong time. You know, for... I think they also had like a very strange, like, where do I find AMC stuff?

Lucky Hank, by the way. Yeah. Yeah, and maybe the bigger point there is that like... Is that one of the shows where you were like, you watched the first one and you were like truly the greatest TV show of all time? And then... The opposite. Oh, okay.

I found it a little genteel. as far as campus comedies go. What's your favorite campus comedy? What was the Amanda Peat show that she made, the chair with Sanrio? That was a good show. That was good. Should we just do that part of the podcast? But wait, are we getting to the, are we getting to the root of this question, do you think?

Like, there's just. Yes, what's the root of the question? I think that there are other examples of things that we have championed that would have been harder cells in any ecosystem, but I do feel like, you know, play the hits, you know for us. The opposite of hits for us. Zero, zero,

or the English or like Hugo Blux miniseries. Well, I was going to say, there are shows that are international productions that I wonder whether would just be better off as Netflix shows

because Netflix seems to have a unique ability to platform international stuff and sell it back to Western audiences or American audience specifically. Sure. And they're just like,

yep, I'll give Squid Game to try, you know. Now, obviously, that's a very grabby, uh, dystopian drama, but would say nothing have been bigger on Netflix? Um, would Tokyo Vice have been bigger on Netflix? Tokyo Vice, maybe.

The reason I want to come back to Lodge 49 was just, and in, in my mind, it was more recent. I think it's 2018. Um, 2018, which is longer ago. It's already a different era of television. But Lodge 49 is just like, you know, its title was inspired by Pynchon. It was created by a novelist named Jim Gavin.

It starred Wyatt Russell, who is now going to be an Avengers Doomsday, but was an actor that we kind of like from Linklater movies. And it felt like the kind of show that if given the right opportunity, because it was such a good hang, people would have found it and found their way to it. And that would have been doable for a network like AMC when it was still receiving tons of carriage fees no matter what. But also maybe they wouldn't have produced it in the way that they did, which did feel a little bit caught in between. Because the whole point of the show is that it was like a cool beach house.

hangout vibe, but it was so clearly shot in Georgia that that took me out a little bit. Like, and the mixed of cast of like, I don't even know the budgetary history, but I don't need to get into it. Sure. But like, we are missing that. I'm using that as an example of the TV version of the kind of middle brow quality movie that got eaten out of the movie business. We're not getting these kind of like, this is an ongoing series and we'll hang out with it

for a while vibes anymore. If you're getting it, if Lodge 49 comes out today, like, it's not being made unless Matthew McConaughey is starring in it for Apple. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last-minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for,

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This episode is brought to by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods, market peach, apricot, rose, Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango, Yuzu chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with the yellow sale sign storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. John has a question. I have a question about prestige TV fatigue. In the last year, I have gotten much more enjoyment from watching baseball, top chef,

bakeoff 100 foot wave taskmaster, and other shows like that. And I don't necessarily... John feels like he's enjoying life. I don't think that. I don't think this is necessarily indicative of a drop of quality or anything. I love to say nothing, for example, but I find I have less time and interest for very important TV. Are you folks experiencing a similar thing? Does this change the way you cover TV? I think it's similar to the – this is a good follow-up, because it's related to the previous question. There was a moment when, like, the prestige, quote-unquote, important TV that we covered was Breaking Bat,

which was also super entertaining and was a – by the end of the end of the end of the TV. end, it was six consecutive week lift, right? And then you, and then it was like a short sports season, and then you were done with it. Sometimes now, the best shows of the year are, say nothing is a great example. Say Nothing was incredible work, completely underseen. I found both compelling and at times really enjoyable, but a limited historical series that could be really tough and really demanding. Yeah. That's different. Like, it's like the great, there's no middle class anymore. Can I just say that?

Yeah. There's no middle class of this for, you know, the prestige stuff has trended more prestige or more limited, which requires a different kind of investment. Like the best TV shows, I feel like John would like the pit, you know? And is the pit the wire or no? But, you know, it weirdly...

Anything about this is, I mean, because, look, Top Chef episodes are like an hour and 15 minutes, right? 100 foot wave typically goes up to about an hour. With commercials. Top Chef Without is like still, it's 55. It's heavy. It's long. Don't they do 90 minute episodes? With commercials. Which net out to like... About an hour.

About an hour. Of actual watching it. But so it doesn't seem to be... And then when you have Bake Off, that's like at least a lot of volume of an episode. Look, I think maybe what you're looking for here is a repeatable experience and a consistent level of quality. And even though we've been critical of Top Chef or whatever or even said like 100 foot wave, like, kind of caught in between what Garrett's doing and what the rest of the surfing community is doing.

Ultimately, it sounds like what you want is, I know I'm going to get this feeling when I tune into this. And I think that for me, if there's anything that I'm sharing with you, John, it's that there are real fluctuations of quality for a lot of shows. The best shows kind of can maintain it,

But even something like the pit had down episodes or episodes where you were like, okay, that was gross and exciting, but was 51 minutes and I'm, you know, like I feel like something's coming. You're on that arc, but because we do so much, hey, you're not going to fucking believe this episode. You have to build up to that. Whereas like for Taskmaster or for Bakeoff, you're like, cool. Like, I am going to feel the exact same way at the end of this. But also, isn't this, I'm sorry to cut you off.

You would say it at the end of this as you would at the beginning. Nick, go ahead. That was not a seamless baton pass. I apologize. Cut me off and now you don't remember what you were going to say? No, I remember. It's the TV... You're just really like Chris has been talking for 30 seconds. You're done. Can we do something about this? We should get one of those little like chess clocks.

No, the TV forgot how to be TV. So if you talk about Last of Us, whether you love the show or hate the show, there is no argument over the fact that the second episode was a very, very different show than the sixth episode, for example, just pulling that out of a hat. Or, you know, it may be skewed in a more positive way that the third episode that everyone loved, in the first season was different than the second episode that everyone loved in the second season. That is a wide variance of your experience of viewing the show. And also because it's so big, so prestige, such an adaptation, it doesn't really, I'm not saying this as a flaw, but it doesn't spend a lot of time being like, let's hang out in Jackson and meet all the characters. So we know where we're going to be. That's not the type of the show that it is. So you're in, the investment of

your time can have a very different return week to week. Whereas your example with the pit, by, you know, minute 41 of the pilot, I was like, I can't wait to learn every single person in this room's name. Sure. And I know that I will. So that when there's an episode where the nurses stand in a circle like a Greek tragedy from, you know, the before, like from the actual Odyssey times. And they're like, truly, these are our problems today in medicine. I was like, okay, cool. I wonder what, you know, Dr. Langdon's doing right now.

I love the experience. I also wonder if John's experiencing a little bit of the same issues that Catherine was experiencing, which is just, it's really noisy in the swimming pool. Do I want to jump in? Yeah. Like, maybe John would enjoy the bear because certainly the first two seasons, episode to episode, it's very engaging in the episodes aren't that long. But the pressure to have an opinion about it and to have watched all of it in order

to talk to anyone can be daunting. Sure. So. Yeah. Dylan asks to Andy's, thank you to Andy's endorsement of Bluey. I introduced it to my kids ages six and four. And it's now their favorite show. This has given me some credibility in their eyes to recommend shows.

I've tried to turn them on to some of my favorite classics with mixed results. They love Errol Flynn and Danny Kay, but hate Miyazaki. Andy's girls... I'm sorry, we're going to have to revisit this. Andy's girls are slightly older, and Seard's Ward is frozen in time as an early teen. Thank you for listening. So I'd like to learn from their experience. What are your wrecks for films or TV shows from any era that will be enjoyable for me

and for my kids. I think the, this is a really tough one. Muppets. Muppets are really good, generally, high quality across the board. The early movies especially, I will always watch.

I love watching the entirety of the original Muppet show is streaming on Disney Channel and a lot of that, Disney Plus, and a lot of that is very much adult coded in ways that are really fun. So I think that is a reliable,

reliable indicator of everyone being pretty happy. Beyond that, there are certain classic era, classic era Disney movies like Mary Poppins that are just phenomenal, always. Then it gets a little trickier. Like, because... You heard of Mary Poppins dog?

No, but I'm like... No, I mean, like, but I mean in terms of things that I actually enjoy watching, too. I was able to... My kids got into Fantastic Mr. Fox, will not watch Isle of Dogs. That's where they're... But now they're old enough to start watching.

But now my older daughter likes Tenenbaum, so we're in the clear. Okay. But like, because my kids liked Miyazaki, one of the reliable things to do was just, like, go to, like, the Apple movie, like the iTunes movie store and, like, call up spirited away and scroll down to the recommended also... And then there's other anime movies

that we ended up discovering that they liked. But if this guy, kids don't like that stuff, I'm not sure. but the algorithm has been helpful for me in those ways. Does it ever recommend stuff that is inappropriate, like blue-eyed samurai or something like that? No, so far no. Okay.

I mean, it does recommend, there are a lot of anime movies in which, like, the spirit of a girl turns into a small fox that a boy falls in love with. And this is a lot of, like, what's going on? So it does get a little questionable. but in terms of like family everyone loving it. Does stuff from your childhood that was like the first movies you really started to fall in love with like Ferris Bueller or Goonies resonate with your kids?

100% no. They, but that also may be not to, you know, gender's a spectrum, but like my kids just are profoundly uninterested in movies about special boys, whether it's Star Wars, Back to the Future, Karate Kid. or hearing about my childhood, honestly. But they do love rom-coms that are increasingly inappropriate. Like, my older daughter is 12, and her favorite movie is Clueless. Really likes, like, Room of the View, really likes All Pride and Prejudice. Room of the Rheas is a rom-com? Yeah.

If you watch it the right way. Pride and Prejudice is the Kyr-Nightly Pride and Prejudice is the most-watch movie in the household. Steven said, here's my mailbag question. Nothing for your word, by the way. No. I don't have anything for them. Like, I mean, like, to me, it would just be, I think the biggest change that I feel like has happened is,

um, it didn't feel like there was as much age appropriate stuff for us when we were younger. And so the constant fight was, I want to watch the thing that's just a few years too old for me. Yes, we were pitched up, which, which my younger daughter has to deal with. And I was much more like, I want to get away from the kid's stuff as fast as possible. You know what I mean?

Like, I was like always like trying to, to sneak around a door to see Miami Vice on TV. Yes. You know, like that kind of thing. And now if I had had as many options, if there was so much stuff marketed to me when I was eight, I don't know if I would have been like, oh, I want to know what's going on on, moonlighting, you know? I think that there's a, it's amazing how much high quality stuff there is for kids. I think another show that they fell in love with that your older kid might start to get into

is like Owl House was a Disney show that they loved. It's really smart. but it is a completely different thing to be catered to constantly versus just trying to age up to the point where you can plausibly rent Kentucky Fried movie. Stephen asks,

with the rise of international television breaking into the mainstream in North America with Squid Game, dark money heist, and more recently, Eaternot, when you watch foreign language television or films, do you prefer subs or dubs or dubs? Subtitles or dubbed versions.

Never dubbed, dog. Subs only. I never dub. I tried it because I was curious with Eternot for a couple of scenes and it just didn't have like any emotional like quality. I'm sure the voice actors tried their best,

but like it's just kind of like reading. It's not acting. And I wonder if that will get better. I wonder if certain artificial intelligence programs might. Do you think, I mean, do you, I'm just, I know you don't have the answer to this because we didn't prepare this level of data. But like I do wonder Netflix,

like what percentage of people are doing dubs versus subs? I mean, there are... There's a big, it's whether you're second screening or not. So you cannot watch Eaternot and also look at your phone for extended periods of time because, yes, you can follow along visually, but you'll miss some nuance of these characters who are oftentimes like it's off-screen voices and stuff like that.

Like so I think that that is the sort of major... major thing that why people would might choose to have dubs on. I think also from what I've heard anecdotally culturally people who grew up in non-English speaking countries are more used to dubs like a lot of the material that they saw was dubs growing up so that is a more nap that it's a it's not a barrier to entry the flip side of that is what's interesting to me it's not in the question and maybe we'll have other opportunities to talk about it but everything is subtitled now and so many people watch things with subtitles intentionally not just like my parents putting subtitles on the wire because they literally didn't understand

what any of these people were saying about any subject. But more of the fact that like everything on TikTok, and even on Instagram, like are the clips from this are subtitled. But that's also, so sometimes people just are looking at their phones with the volume on and they can just like...

Right, but it's normalizing reading subtitles and normalizing, looking at that part of the screen and it does change, I think, people's relationship to... Like when I put subtitles on things, or if they just automatically come on, English-speaking things, I am reading ahead. And so I'm not really keyed into performance.

The only time I've actually recently, I've tried to not do it because I do find that it's a different viewing experience to read something even as you're trying to process a frame. I never do it with movies because I just feel like that is not the way that a film was meant to be seen. And yet?

That being said, I was just watching Tenet again this weekend. And that movie is, is not mixed well. Like the dialogue is not mixed high enough to be able to even come close to understanding all the shit that they're talking about. I fucking love Tenet,

but like when you turn the subs on, you're like, oh. But also there's an element of like, like we, I think this came up when we were talking about Andor. Like there have been moments when watching episodes of Andor, especially rewatching them for the pod, where I've thrown subtitles on

just to make sure I've gotten something. And I see something that I absolutely, Absolutely. For sure. But it didn't matter. I understood that Partagas was saying, like, referring to some munitions project. Yeah, like, he's like, you got to do this. But I didn't know that that was also the same thing that was referenced three episodes ago or something like that.

Exactly. Yeah. Chris and Andy, in a slow TV period, I'm wondering if you have any recommendations for under the radar shows that maybe pre-exist your podcasting careers. Whoa, boy. I feel like we've done this. This is from Nate. We've tried to be like pretty open about like the shows that we loved growing up, the shows that we loved when we were first in New York together.

Like I... And they're ones that I feel like are just now accepted parts of the canon, like Friday Night Lights. Yeah. Like I think people get that that's amazing. I wish, you know, I did podcast a little bit about it on Sick to Landing, but like that, I don't think that's a secret. I came across the other day one of my favorite things.

happen on the internet is when I accidentally find myself on a Wikipedia page for a season of 24. You were so into 24. And you're just like the president's twin is like. You were so into that. I was really into the first three seasons of 24. And politically you were really into Jack Bauer's methods. I remember that that was a big. More Ninas, but yeah.

This morning at breakfast, my younger daughter asked me something that she's asked before, which was when you were my age, what were your favorite? TV shows, which is such a strange question, going back to what you were saying, what we were saying before about, like, what was available to us? Because I was like, when I was seven or eight, everyone's favorite TV shows that year were the Cosby show, family ties, growing pains. Like, that's what everybody watched, you know, and that, and I was like explaining that they were just, they were comedies about families. And then she stared at me for a minute and she said, are they the shows with a fake laughing.

And I was like, yeah, and she goes, I hate that. What do you mean you hate that? What do you know? Then I said that. And then I stormed it.

Make your own breakfast. Oh. It was a great bit. I have to, so I've, I carved out some time towards the end of this pod because we have so many emails. Okay.

Asking us what we're reading. Oh, yeah. What books we would recommend and whether we would do another summer of dove, type reading project. So I want to talk to you about this plan. Let's hash it out.

Okay. So that was a very joyful time during a very dark period of American life in the pandemic. We were so fortunate, I think, to choose one of the greatest American novels, certainly of the 20th century. Yeah. And a book that contains such multitudes and is such a journey. I think it's tough, although I think we should make this a conversation, to think of another book or book series

that has the same kind of populist but also artistic weight. That said, in the earliest, earliest days of Hollywood Prospectus pod, we briefly started a Tumblr for our book club, our double-down book club, which still remains, I think, on the internet

is the only official register of, like, we like George Pelicanos and Alan First, and here are the books that we like by them. So I don't know if it would be like a recurring, like here is the watch's bookshelf, and we could, like, physically put copies up here next to the golden bananas that are here for some reason

and have them here. And we would just do a little riff on why we like this book and then the world it opens up. Do we do, like, an Elmore Leonard episode? What of things that we love? I think an Elmore Leonard episode would be good. I find that Elmore Leonard's pleasures

are not where I would be like, let's go back to what Jack Ryan was doing in this book. You know what I mean? It's not like the mechanics of the plot kind of. The way this drunk ordered a scotch from the woman with a cigarette was so amazing. Yeah. I have books that I can recommend that I've been reading this year and I'm happy to do so. But as far as like a project, you're right, there was something, there was like a little bit of kismet around and some dove.

I think it was the first time we had both read it. It was a big long novel that was supportive of multiple episodes of discussion, but also fun and surprising and sad. And then there was TV and we could talk to people. about it. I mean, my memory of reading the part where redacted dies, while holding the paperback in one hand, while forgetting to flip the chicken that I was grilling in the backyard, is literally burned. Very much like redacted. Into my mind. Okay, so,

what could we do? Is there like another doorstopper novel that you have, either you've had your eye on? That's the other thing is that, like, we got lucky. I both started reading One's Some Dove for fun and then we were both like this is incredible

and then turned it into content. It's hard to be like, let's read Treat of Smoke by Dennis Johnson and make it into like Or DeLillo's Underworld or whatever and have it be relevant

to what we're doing. The other thing about it that I loved and this has been a theme in this entire Mailbag podcast is that it was 40, it wasn't yet, but it was about to be 40 years old.

There was, was nothing urgent about covering this book. Its place in the firmament was settled. And I kind of liked that. That made it a more pleasurable experience. It wasn't about like, why now? Why is this?

So I don't know. I saw this mailbag question, and I do think that there is some value in building a little shelf of, like, our canonical books. Sure. Because there, look, there was a period when, you and I were both talking about fandom. It's like we read one early George Pelicanos book,

and then what was so thrilling about it was not just that he was writing new books, but there were so many. There were different series to get into, and we would be texting back when you had to do the, hit three, four times, yeah, language would be texting about these books. James Crumley books that I still reread,

but, and I think inform how we feel about things, but I don't know about a doorstopper. Also, Kaya's contemporary corner, all with K's, I think would be... That would be KKK. I don't see...

I don't have any notes. We pretty much just go off the dome here. First idea, best idea. That would probably do numbers for us because Kaya reads more contemporary fiction than either of us. My favorites... Well, I just finished the new Miranda July novel,

all fours. Which I enjoy. a lot. But I have no, like, I have not engaged with Miranda July in any other format. Okay. Have you left your marriage yet? I feel like that's the, that's the all-forst thing, right? Yeah, it's a lot of like middle age on wee and perimenopause. Other than that... I don't know her. Is she related to Benny Jesuit? I think one of my favorite things I read this year was colored television by Danzy Sena. which was it's basically a novel about a woman who she's a novelist living in Los Angeles

and she tries to get into the TV writing industry. And it's one of those books that kind of makes you feel almost like sick to your stomach with secondhand embarrassment, but like you can't put it down. Because of like the failures of her professional career or? Yeah. Okay. Other than that. What's that one called again?

Color television. Color television. Okay. I'll throw a couple of titles out. Yeah, do it. I think I shouted out Playworld by Adam Ross earlier in the year.

I think John Mullaney shouted that out. Yeah, I think I beat him to the punch. Although Anthony Juslinick beat me to the punch. I love that novel. I want to shout out

Patrick Hoffman, who we've brought up a couple of times. He's been on the pod. And there's a new novel called Friends Helping Friends, which is set in Colorado and is about

a sort of small-time crook who gets caught between a white militia and law enforcement in a game of, I mean, of criminal enterprises. How does that work out? I wouldn't give it away. I don't want to do that. And, yeah, other than that, I've been trying to get through Anacrenna, which has been

like my big project that I did East of Eden last year. I tried to, like, read at least one classic year. I've read a couple of other books in my downtime from Anacranina because I can't travel with it, it's too heavy. So I read America Fantastica, which is a recent novel by Tim O'Brien, who wrote the things they carried, which I liked quite a bit, and a hero of France, which is just another

first banger, Alan First banger. That's not a new one though, right? No, it's just about the French resistance. Should we reread all the Allen First books? I was thinking about that recently. I mean, we could do night soldiers. God damn, it's a good book. I feel unprepared for this because I, remember? You always say that? Like, I always ask you if you want to do book talk. Yeah, but I wasn't ready today.

I'm not ready. I'm not ready. And then you're like doing Instagrams of the Ivan Doig book. Doigah, I believe. Nothing. Did you, yeah, English Creek by Ivan Doigah is like the best book that I've read in a long time. I loved it. It's a, it's set in 1939 in Montana and it was just like, I think I said this. Like discovering it was like, oh, what if William Faulkner was Mark Twain? And it's so fun and exciting and the writing is so lively and great. I read, Kai, have you read any Mieko Kawakami? She were breast and eggs? I haven't, no.

I read a book by her called All the Lovers in the Night. That was kind of cool. If I've read any of that? You know what? I know you pretty well. And I read an old, there's a children's book author named Russell Hoban who wrote these books.

Speaking of the guy who wanted things for his kids, about a, I think a badger called Francis, and it's like bread and jam for Francis. And these are very, like, popular books. I remember those. He then and his wife, Lillian Hobin drew the pictures. It's a great book about a mold Christmas. I'm telling you all this because then he left his wife, moved to London,

and wrote a bunch of adult novels about guys who were divorced and living in London. He wrote a book called Turtle Diary that got turned into a pretty mediocre movie in the 80s, but it's a really interesting middle-aged romance. It's not like all fours, but there are turtles in it. And then it's true. here's the thing. We didn't even talk about this. This is my last one. Recently, I was looking at old issues of spin on Google Books, because sometimes it's fun to be like, not just like what were the ads when magazines existed and had ads, but I'm always like,

I wonder where Chris reviewed this month. You know, it's like dilated people's second record or whatever. Or what I, you know, like the time I went to Bam Margera's house and interviewed his parents while Ryan Dunn was drunk, passed out on the couch. I was looking at the mast head. And at the bottom of the masthead from Spin in like the late 90s, early 2000s, is a guy named Gilbert Rogan, editorial director. Okay. Was there on the masthead when I worked there? Never knew who it was.

I was like, who was that guy? What role did he have? So then I read about this guy who was a legend in New York publishing and was like a legend at Sports Illustrated for many, many years. And that he also, and then I guess had a relationship with Bob Miller who bought the magazines and was just advising them even though he was retired. That was his role with Spin. He wasn't assigning you dilated people's reviews.

But it turns out he also was once praised by John Updike as like the greatest other young novelist of his time and he wrote like dozens of stories for the New Yorker some of which turned into kind of like story collection novels and then he turned in in this 1974 or whatever 78 he turned in a new short story to your guy Roger Angel at the New Yorker who's the fiction editor then and he said these seem a bit like you're milling the same terrain

and he never wrote fiction again. No shit really? All this, his two novels were republished a bunch of years ago, like five, six years ago. And they're really fun. Roger rejected them, though. Yeah, but these were already out. Yeah. And they were published in one volume by Verse Corrus Press.

What happens next in preparations for the Ascent? And they are like a missing link in that kind of like lightly comic 70s. But what do I do with my life, John Updike Woody Allen vibes? And pretty fun. There's always something more to discover. Yeah. Okay. So maybe we'll make the recommendation, the book recommendations and the shelf part of our,

Okay, but I want to, I think we should answer this. We should figure out something, though, to the root of the question. Like, we should find a project. Yeah, for sure. Are we going to do that? Yeah. Before or after you watch the wind rises by Miyazaki. Before.

I just want to put it in the ICAL. Thanks to everybody for listening. We will be back. Andy probably solo on this coming Thursdays if this is going on. Like hard solo. Hard solo. The Andy Greenwald Show returns. And then, yeah, we'll be back soon.

I'm going to have Jenny Lewis on and we're just going to talk about wisdom. She can sing your name again. Things we've learned. It's going to be great for me. Thanks to Guy, thanks to John.