The Watch - ‘Survivor’ Season 50 Finale, ‘Widow’s Bay’ Episode 5, and All-Time Episodic Runs With Joanna Robinson

Episode Date: May 22, 2026

Chris is joined by Joanna Robinson to react to the ‘Survivor’ Season 50 finale and their thoughts on the season as a whole (2:56), before talking about the first two episodes of ‘The Boroughs,�� a Netflix sci-fi show produced by The Duffer Brothers (28:04). Later, they discuss ‘Widow’s Bay’ Episode 5 (28:04) and then, inspired by a stellar three-episode run of the show, talk about some of their favorite three-episode runs in TV history (38:29). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Host: Chris Ryan Guest: Joanna Robinson Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Additional Video Supervision: Jacob Cornett Order and it will come. Like today. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the Peace Center. Yes. It's my shaman. Joe, thank you so much for doing this. You're coming right off of a prestige TV recording. Please look out for my lizard. She's on a walkabout. I just love what you've done with the place here. We're over here in the Sick and War Studios. Joe's joining me today. Andy will be back next week. We're not going to do a recording on Monday. I'm giving Andy Memorial Day off from Euphoria. What a kind boss you are. I want to clothe back. But we will be back. If something really super significant happens on Euphoria, maybe Andy and I will record on Tuesday. Define significant.

Rue dies. Multiple plot lines converge. Jacob Allardy has something to do. Jules and Jacob will already show up in like a similar scene. Oh, Jules has lines. That makes sense. Exactly. But today we're going to talk

a little bit of Survivor. A little bit of the Burroughs, which is a new show on Netflix, that I checked out two episodes of. I watched too. Good. I want to talk to you, obviously, about Widows Bay.

Andy and I will hit it harder next week. But I had a fun idea for us where I think episodes 4 and 5 are elite television, two of the best episodes I've seen this year. And it got me going down a little bit of a best episodes run of TV series. And let me tell you, that was a fun little list to look at.

I don't often think of things in terms of like the runs that they're on. That's more of like a bill mind thing. But I really enjoyed thinking about these and there were some really obvious like ones that jumped out. And we're going to talk a little bit of Survivor. In fact, just good for the sake of newsiness. And you can hit us up at the watch at Spotify.com and you can follow us at the watchpod underscore on Instagram.

Ring or Dash TV, we can also watch Prestige TV on YouTube and listen to us on Spotify or wherever you like, honestly. Transistor Radio. Maybe Andy and I are still broadcasting from a faraway time. How are you? Are you good? I'm great. How are you? I just had to do my spiel. This is my fifth podcast of the week. So I'm feeling in the groove. I know that you're probably there too. But we both found time to watch a little bit of Survivor. So spoilers for anybody who hasn't watched the finale yet, I guess. had to stay up quite late to watch it because it did not go to Paramount Plus until the wee hours. You guys just did a house of our crossover with Tyson and Riley earlier in the week. So I know that you're locked in. What did you think of the finale? Were you a fan of how things were executed? How do you usually watch Survivor? That's a question I have for you.

I usually turn it on at 10 p.m. on Paramount Plus. And then I will be completely candid with you and our listeners and say that after about 12 seasons that, like, we started really watching it in earnest in my household during the pandemic. Yeah. After about like 12 or 13 or 14 seasons, we may have gotten a little bit quick with the trigger finger when it comes to skipping the physical challenges. Oh, yeah. So we get it down to about like 40 minutes an episode by just being like, we're social players. I'm interested in what happens before and after the challenges. Do I need to unlock, like, maybe I don't have the elite tier of Paramount Plus, because I thought it was like it only hit.

I thought I had to watch it on like Paramount Li TV. But maybe it's just I needed to wait for East Coast after midnight for it to post. Yes. It's, I think it goes up at like 10, 10, 15 on Paramount Plus. But like many nights I have been sitting there like refreshing. Like, it's getting too late to start. It's getting too late to start. Okay.

I thought when they said it will post the next day, they met like the next day. So I've been, I've been watching it as appointment television. On Paramount Plus, like, starting it up right at 8 o'clock, I have to be home. And I've been, like, watching commercials. Oh, okay. Do you have cable? No, I'm like, no. Oh, wow. Yeah.

I don't. I have just this various streamers. Oh, wow. That I still have cable. I don't know. Yeah, like I watch. I don't know what, yeah, because I don't watch a lot of network stuff. And if I do, I'll just like watch it next day on Hulu. That's how I watch Marshalls, you know.

Yeah. Well, this is the only thing is, like, you don't want to get spoiled for Survivor and stuff like that. So I've been watching it like old school, like before VCR television. Yeah. I've just been, because you can't record off Paramount Plus, so I was just like, I have to be home at 8 o'clock. Did you grow up at a, the channel stays on one channel all night, family? Kind of. Well, I mean, they used to block program in a way.

Like, local national news. Yeah. Like, did you guys leave a one news network? Yeah, it was like Jeopardy into. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But we, but for this, I went to a finale party at someone's house. Lovely. And it was like, I don't know, a room full of people and I knew two people.

But the point you were making about skipping. through physical challenges, Survivor, I don't think you need to watch every single second with like all of your attention. I agree. And so to watch it with a rowdy room of people where they were talking over, usually talking over television bothers me. In this case, it did not because like I don't need every single second, especially in the Jeff Patter, the live finale interview stuff. And, you know, spoilers for what's happening, right? We were all very invested specifically in certain people not winning. Yeah.

So once Tiff was out, which was a huge bummer for the room, yes. Everyone, except for one person was Team Aubrey. So like we were yelling and very excited. And I have not watched Survivor in that way. It felt like I was in a bar or something like that. Or it's just sort of like everyone's blood was up and they were really excited. You know, because a couple, I feel like there's been, I'd have to like look at the

actual champions over the last couple of years, but it does feel like there have been a lot of, even if going into the finale, thought there was more of a debate, like people running the table, like people winning like, you know, 8 and 10, whatever it is, 10 nothing in the final jury. And this one felt like a little bit more like, I didn't think Aubrey could lose to Jonathan and Joe, but I also wasn't certain Aubrey was going to win, if that makes sense. I feel the way about Survivor Finallies that I feel about the Super Bowl, which is if my team is not playing, I treat it as like sort of a grand piece of entertainment, but not as something

I'm as invested in. And I get a little melancholy during Survivor Finale because I really like having like a regular Wednesday appointment of television. There's two things to talk about. There's the actual gameplay in Who Won? Yeah. And then there is the snafu that occurred that basically happened when Survivor Finaleys

often cut back and forth between the game that has been taped in Fiji or on Fiji. 10 months ago. 10 months ago, whatever it is. And then the live L.A. studio finale show that Jeff is hosting. So was that like a Paramount or something?

I mean, where? Yeah, it was the Paramount line. Okay. And this year, this season, season 50, which has been this sort of coronation for the show, Jeff screwed up. It seems like Jeff screwed up. I don't know what they...

No, he definitely screwed up. I mean, I don't know if somebody was in his ear being like, and now tell him, like, send Rizzo to the jury or whatever, but we were about to get our firemaking competition. I hate firemaking. I think it's a really unfair way of deciding who goes to final three, but it's tradition. It was going to be Rizzo versus Jonathan.

I think everybody imagined Jonathan was going to probably... When Jonathan could, like, start a fire every single... His brain. His freaking homelander. Someone I was watching with was like, Jonathan should start his fire at the firemaking, just like looking at Rizzo. And just like, because he doesn't need to concentrate at all.

I can do it in his sleep. But Jeff does a little stand-up interview with Rizzo. And then in the middle of it, before the firemaking takes place, he's doing a like, we're about to see firemaking. And Rizzo, why don't you join the jury? Right. And it was described.

to me in a text before I saw it was make sure you watch tonight there's a la la land moonlight moment. Now I thought what that meant was like Jeff got the count wrong and a final vote which obviously would be very difficult but what did you, what was kind of going through your mind

when you saw this happen? Were you like, is this a technical problem? So the people I was watching with we started late so that we could fast forward through commercials and the person was on the fast forward, everyone in the room started accusing him of like missing the fire, you know, because it was like clear As soon as Rizzo comes out

and there's an empty stool with the rest of the jury, you're like, okay, but what did we miss? I was talking to Tyson and Ashley because they were here recording Pottis Boken and I was like, what was it like in the room, you know? And basically, because so many people had to do their job incorrectly

for that to have happened. Yes. Every single PA, every single producer, every single person just like let this happen because they play the episode in the room on the big screen. So, like, they're watching it. And it was clear that they had not shown firemaking yet. Tyson said he was sort of zoning out because they had already watched the finale.

So, like, he was not even. This is not. He was like, he's like, wait, didn't they not show firemaking yet? He said, Ashley and Tyson said that D, who he couldn't see on the camera, she was like the far left of the jury, that she was like gesturing to Jeff to be like, cut it. That Rizzo kind of tried to say like, did I? Like, whatever. But yeah, I guess they queued Jeff too early. But I still don't understand how it was allowed to go, like, no one stopped him.

It's also funny that it's not like a Saturday Night Live. Like, we'll catch it for the West Coast thing. I guess once the cat's out of the bag, the cat's out of the bag. Well, he did so many bits about it throughout the rest of the evening. Yeah, I guess that would have killed it. Yeah, exactly. But yeah. As far as the winner, so the spoilers again, obviously were into this, but Aubrey wins.

Wait, because, so who did you want to win? Aubrey. Oh, entirely? I was... Up until a certain point, I was really hoping Surrey would win because I wanted to see... To me, her gameplay is the other side of being

a physical beast and camp beast. And she's just like... One of the reasons why I skipped challenges is I'm like, I don't actually think people... Seria's never really held accountable for not being good to challenges. You know what I mean?

Rizzo either. Rizzo lost to every single thing. If there's really no like, hey, you're holding us back. Now, every once in a while in the beginning of seasons, you'll be like, hey, we need to win some challenges. We need to win some food. You're out. But as it goes on, I feel like the physical challenges are really just for the immunity necklace. So it's like, I'll find out who won, but it doesn't matter how people performed. So I was cheering for her. I think she obviously ceilinged out because at a certain point, you have to sort of say, like, if we go to the final

three of the three, she's going to win. I think she got out on like an unfair twist, but the two twists of the game where they randomly divided the tribe into, you know, mini-trives. That's what, like, screwed Genevieve out of the game earlier this season when they did it, and that's what screwed Surrey out of the game. Because if she had had access to everyone to weave her spell, which she used to protect Ozzie, her ride or die, all season, Ozzie would not have been voted out. If Ozzy wasn't voted out, then Surrey is less vulnerable, you know, and like the Rizzo. Like, Rizzo didn't want to go to the final three with Surrey.

But Ozzy genuinely did. And so I kind of, and, you know, she had TIF. So I feel like if Ozzy hadn't been so dumb and if they hadn't divided the tribes the way they did, like there was a path for her to the end. It was a narrow path. I wonder if she's like ever like practiced firemaking. Like if you're Seria and you're like that good at social,

do you think you're ever like, okay? So like, because she's always going to eventually be like, who's been running this game? Oh, like me. Seria is. So I was cheering for her. I was happy for all. Aubrey.

Yeah, me too. And, you know, in retrospect, I think it's useful to ask you about this. Like, we can watch television sometimes and lose ourselves in it, but then a lot of times we'll watch a show and we'll kind of be like, I kind of see the seams or the stitching and where we're going with this. I'm actually kind of a useful way of looking at the burrows. And, you know, now that you know, Aubrey won, it's been obvious, I guess, for like six episodes that she was going to win because they really started giving her.

Well, she kept saying, now is when my game began. She said that like four or five episodes in a row. I will say this. And we do have proof of this. Mallory and I entered a survivor pool this season. The same pool, I entered it last season. I did win last season. We did not win this season.

We got second place, though. But part of, like, the pool is you have to pick your final champion. Okay. We picked Aubrey only because in the very first episode, there was that extremely weird Genevieve and Aubrey conversation that just stuck out as so bizarre. It was like it can only be one of us.

Yeah. And it was just sort of like we thought it had to be one of them. We were like, it's either Genevieve or Aubrey. Otherwise, why is this scene in here at all? Social minded like Seasweet Denzians who play from the middle? Yeah, yeah, exactly. It was just sort of like there. Play from the middle. There's just like no reason this scene is here

because it was just so awkwardly shot and edited that unless they were trying to seed something from the very beginning for one of them. I mean, we weren't sure which. We picked Aubrey. We also picked Genevieve to go far. She didn't.

But like, so that's why we didn't win. But that was my only editing clue early on. But otherwise, Aubrey wasn't getting like a great edit early on. So I don't know. In terms of, like, for a while, we were like, oh, is it Christian? Because they're focusing so much on Christian. She's just such a good narrator. I think he gets a lot.

Is it Devons? You know, because he's so entertaining, et cetera, et cetera. I was worried it was Jonathan. But yeah, it's complicated in terms of, I really love analyzing a reality show edit to try to like see what stories they're trying to create. It was especially challenging, I think, with Survivor 50 because they were really trying to craft these. Rizzo, remember when you lost a firemaking? You're about to, you know, they're like, what can we craft where we can use archival footage to really like stitch together the history of Survivor and make this person's downfall feel like connected to their previous. games. So they were working

over time to craft certain sub-narratives inside of the winter narrative. Do you know? Yeah, they maybe spent, to my taste, a little too much time indulging like some character work that wound up not really paying off. Like the coach thing kind of

wore out its welcome for me pretty quickly. I feel like yeah, like Christian's an amazing player who I just think is a great play-by-play guy for Survivor. but like ultimately got so much camera time. But then it's like how early do you want to start tipping your hat towards Aubrey?

It was almost better that they did it this way. Well, and I think it's interesting because one of the complaints, especially after the Zach Brown episode is when people were sort of ranking confessions, they're like, Zach Brown has more airtime than TIF. Yeah. And then, but TIF was someone who went a long way in the game. So they saved a lot of the TIF stuff for later. Yeah.

And that's a strategic edit. but it also, you know, pissed a lot of people off because they're like, why aren't you showing these various players at all and get Zach Brown the fuck out of here, which I agree with. Mr. Beast's over the course of the season, and advice that Tyson has given again and again on his podcast is, if you're auditioning for Survivor, the number one thing you need to be able to do

is exactly what you're saying is tell a story. So if you can convince them that when you sit down for a confessional, you'll have a really fun and dynamic way of describing what has happened or what you're thinking. That's the number one thing they're looking for. Yeah, they're looking for people who look nice

in a swimsuit. Yeah, they're looking for people good at challenges. Yeah, they're looking for, you know, quirky characters. But that narration is something they need from everyone in the group. Yeah, especially, I think also part of the problem was that they had such good orators on this season

was that tribals wound up being dominated by like the same four people, like in a good way for television, but probably at TIF's expense maybe a little bit. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. I mean, I thought it was a really entertaining season. Like I said, like, there's always like a little bit of a like,

the finale is not actually Survivor, you know, to me. Yeah. I guess it's been a while since we've had just like a gobsmacking, amazing. I mean, I will say the way they edited Aubrey going into her final immunity challenge where she's just sort of like, these guys don't want me to go to the final three. so I need to win this immunity. And then as soon as the room I was watching and saw what the challenge was,

people were up off their feet screaming. Because they were like she could win this. She could win it. That's not something that Jonathan's going to dominate at. So it was just sort of like, and did production do that because they wanted Aubrey to go far? Who knows? But like that was to me was the most exciting.

Like Tiff losing the biggest like, oh man, now we're stuck with these chuckle bucks. And then Aubrey getting a challenge she could actually win was really saying. I can't believe Joe was like, I never lied until I lied once. And that was like his whole story. No, but then he made his whole thing like, I lied when I needed to. And I was like, where did the honor and integrity thing go, Joe? You were sitting on a boat the entire season being like, don't lie to me. All right.

Let's talk a little bit about the bros because this is one that's been kind of looming. And I was waiting for like maybe a huge drumbeat of press and trailers and hype for it. And, you know, I have this long running confusion. with how Netflix chooses to like announce itself. And I think they don't need to do that really because they have the platform. So shows wind up just becoming wildly successful with or without like a traditional promo. This is from Jeffrey Adlas and Will Matthews who did a very well-regarded dark crystal. I liked it.

Reboot, like spinning off. How would you describe it? Yeah. Yeah. Called what was it called? Oh, the Age of Resistance. And they created this series. It's executive produced by the Duffer Brothers,

who this is their second series that they've EP'd for Netflix this year, the other one being something very bad is about to happen. About to or going to. I can't. About to. About to happen. Which I loved. And so they've shown themselves as able to guide shows.

I think they definitely have like. I think more successfully in some of these, like, you know, the Weiss and Beating Off deal or whatever. Like there's just a real. Duffer Brothers ethos that seems clear inside of these shows. It feels... Yeah, and I was almost surprised watching these first two episodes. So just as like a brief...

The logline is in a seemingly picturesque retirement community, a group of unlikely heroes most band together to stop an otherworldly threat from stealing the one thing they don't have. Dot, dot, dot, dot. Time. This is basically set at a villages-esque retirement community, but with maybe a few MAGA-inclined seniors who are trading STDs.

I don't know if anybody has ever seen the village's documentary but it's quite a thing. The show opens with a very like amblined out set piece with Dee Wallace

who people will know from E.T. and Ed Begley Jr. and what seems to be an alien and lots of hints and lots of Easter eggs and stuff. And then turns into

a really well-observed occasionally amusing really well-acted given the cast show that is basically like fine for 45 minutes and then has in each episode like a pretty... What the fuck? Yeah, last five minutes.

And so the Duffers know what they're doing. Alfred Molina plays the main character Sam Cooper, who's a widower who's just moved to the bros. Alfred friggin Woodard plays an ex-investigative journalist who is living there with her husband, art who is played by Clark Peters from The Wire, who plays like a stoner who's kind of just doing yoga I'm playing golf, but also some other stuff.

Dennis O'Hare plays a terminally ill resident of the facility. And then Gina Davis is somehow qualifying for senior citizen now. They keep iterating like six. We're in our 60s. We're spry young. It's like we're just getting ahead of the curve. Yeah. Bill Pullman also.

Bill Pullman, yes. Inside of this. Yeah. To your point, like, you know, when I watched the trailer, I was like, wow, this incredible cast. that they've assembled. And also, like, do I feel my age that, you know, these actors, especially when you see, like, Bill Pullman and Gina Davis and you're just thinking about a league of their own or something

like that, you know, like these actors who we grew up with were like, oh, they're populating the retirement community. Is this what people felt like when they watched cocoon in the 80s or whatever, you know? This is very Stranger Things meets Coon energy. The amblin, you know, swing that they're making, which they obviously made with Stranger Things is here. Stuff rattling on the shelves. Yeah.

All of that stuff is here. cul-de-sac, et cetera. But it's so well-acted. Yeah. And I was just sort of like, I was thinking, I was like,

if this show were a bunch of 60-somethings that I've not seen in other things, I'd be far less interested. But a 60-something influencers. She just popped in, popped into TV. Oh my God. Yeah.

The TikTokers are going to get old, man. That's stuff. But, but Alfred Molina is so good. Yeah. Pullman's so good. Ebbikley Jr. So good. Gina Davis, Alfrewedd, Clark Peters, fantastic. And so it's just, you know, it's just really well done. And a script that I'm not sure is, and the other question I have, we've only watched the first two episodes. But this is the perfect kind of fun theory show. There's just a lot of mysteries. It's very like, don't worry, darling, what's happening here sort of thing. But it's a binge drop. And so by the time that some of your listeners are listening to this, they've already watched the full season and they know what happens in the show. We

still are like, what's in the walls and where is the key and what's happening, you know? That's like, I was kind of thinking about that because we're about to talk about these two episodes of Widows Bay that have been coming out once, it's a weekly episodic drop and the way in which one episode can build on another and now like, I think anticipation for the sixth episode of Widows Bay will be at like this fever pitch after these last two. And you just don't get that with this. And in some ways, I feel like they almost write these shows knowing that. I'm not sure some of these things get sold to Netflix and may get recut lately. But like this was probably, I think, if it comes from the Duffers, like brought through

the Duffers deal that they had with Netflix for the preexisting one before. And guys who worked for Netflix before. Yeah. Yeah. It really does feel like if you cut together all of the domestic Alfred Molina scenes of him having like reveries of his late wife played by Jane Casamerick. Is that? Casmeric.

Yeah. Who people know from the Malcolm Middle. Yeah. Or Alfred Woodard sitting at her breakfast nook. kind of thinking about stuff. Like, that's this domestic drama that I don't know if you would be able to distinguish necessarily episode one from episode three because there's a lot of repeated kind of gestures and scenes.

Yeah. But then all the stuff that's like lore and the weirdness of this. Stilling the Rose Quartz. Yeah. And all of Gina Davis's stuff from her arts and craft studios getting stolen. And there is, like you said, don't worry, darling, like a little bit of a Stepford Wives element to what's going on with the guy who runs this place. Yeah, exactly.

All the stuff with seraphim, which, you know, is a, like, basically alien presence, angels, which is what they call their Alexa in this place. And all of the condos are kind of hardwired with this. But Alfred Molina very specifically ripped his out of the wall. He was an engineer. Everybody's got their little special skills. That's the thing. We've got a doctor.

We've got an investigative journalist. And we've got Gina Davis, who's into crystals, which we'll come in handy. So, like, everyone having their. occupation that will be helpful. But also, I agree. Something I really do appreciate is this idea of like a vulnerable and you get this with kids, but a population that no one's going to believe or is easily dismissed. Or they can be like you're having, you know, maybe you're starting to have dementia.

Yeah. Ed Begley Jr.'s character in the first couple episodes here. But yeah, so watching out from Melina, who, who, something I do appreciate about these episodes, and again, I've only seen two, is like how we're not so far. ahead of, like, he's quick on the investigative piece, you know, and he will probably draw the rest of them into this as they go forward. But, like, you know, he's already like, I saw something and I'm not believing the story they're telling about what I sound. I'm not even, like, I'm not even, like, so old that I need to be here. So I know I saw something. Yeah, I know I saw something.

And so he's already investigating. So it's not like we saw the thing which we did in the, in the cold open. And we're just waiting around for people to figure out that there's like, aliens in this show. They're with us. But how quickly, like when he talks to his daughter, the great gentleman alone is here, like, that how quickly he sounds unhinged and how easy it's going to be for him to be discounted.

And so, like, that, you know, the commentary that the show can make about how we treat our elders and how we dismiss our elders is a potentially rich vein inside of the show. I mean, this is also, I'll say, set in New Mexico shot in New Mexico and like the Vince Gilligan universe I think it's always nice

when a show is just like yeah this is where we're shooting it so like we're going to have not elements of New Mexico culture but like it looks like the kind of place where you're like where is this village and it's like New Mexico is the kind of place those places pop up. Middle of the desert like Area 51's over here and then right next to this yeah exactly

and yeah I think it just looks really good I have this weird thing with shows like this, which I would describe as like a B-tier Netflix show where the binge is almost like, if I don't keep watching this right now, I may just stop. Yeah. You know, and but I like, I enjoy what I watch and I'll try to give it some more. To your point about the launch, I watched this a couple days ago, I started, we had the screeners for it.

I started the screener. And then you're like, hey, I want to talk about it on the show. And I just open up Netflix and realize it's now out. You know, like, and there was just no fanfare between when it moved from my screener. to like it's just a show that's out there. But I'll be curious. I remember watching the trailer when it came out earlier this year and I was like, this could either really be something or just banished it.

I think a lot of older people have Netflix. Also, I will say that there's a lot of really good details, especially in the first episode of like the D. Wallace character, like watching Jeopardy and answering all the questions and then kind of watching Golden Girls and like there's some really like good understanding without being. The CPAP machine. Condescending. The C-Pat machine.

Yeah. The C-Map machine being like, and Bill Pullman's great in what we get from him. Have you watched the trailer? Of this? Uh-huh. No. Okay. Then I won't. I won't say what I saw.

Does it give further like... It gives an indication of something that's going to happen that I am uninterested in happening. Okay. So you let me know when you get there. We'll have to like check that in it is. I will. I want to talk to you about Widows Bay. Yes.

We can do this one of two ways. We can do the episodes thing. and talk about Widows Bay second, or we can just chat. I know you've been discussing it with Rob, so I don't want to make you double it up too much. Episode four is my favorite episode of television I've seen this year, so I'm happy to talk about it as much as possible. And I will spoil Andy's takes where he is like, this is probably the best thing I've seen this year, like by far. Yeah. I have also started to notice anecdotally more and more people being like, holy shit, Widows Bay.

Like so it does feel like it's starting to get like a little bit of heat in the streets. Have you noticed that? Van was just in here and I had been hammering him to watch it. And he was like, yeah, and then I was on the phone with Chris. And Chris was like, oh, I see. When I told you to watch it. You didn't, but Chris told you to watch it. And you did.

He's like, no, both of you are equally important. Anyway, you got Van to watch it. Devil and Angel on his shoulder. You love it. Actually, Van is the devil on both of our shoulders. That's correct. Correct. Yeah, absolutely.

It's kicking up in the conversation. Which is great. It deserves it. Like it is so, it's a miracle of a show is how it feels. You know, I was reading a recap of it on Vulture. And I realized that I am not actually like, I'm so blown away by A, the comic performances and just the staging of the whole thing and how for me, even just watching on my screen at home,

three-dimensional the town feels already where I'm like, oh, yeah. And I kind of know where this is. And now they have to drive. here and I've already settled so into the landline technology and like all these things about it that I have not really been like hardcore clocking the underlying lore of the town that I think is going to become increasingly important over the second half of the season and we get a little bit of this at the historical society in this most recent episode.

Shout out Jerry. It speaks to the wonder of the show where it's like it's there it's going to matter, but it is in so many shows that would be foregrounded. There is a lesser version of this show that is like, what do you mean the mayor's wife? You know, like, from like we're piecing together all this stuff. And this is so confident in the moves it's pulling and the characters that's developed that they can have that kind of like down in the faders. I agree with you. And I think there's confidence across the board. Like with their, you know, something that Rob and I are tracking in our coverage is like, you know, we're doing sort of.

of, it's hard to talk about comedy in a week-to-week kind of way. Tell me that it's comedy month of we watch most. It's difficult. But like the categories that we're sort of trying to frame this around, we have something that's like obvious joke and then we have something that's throwaway joke. And those are kind of hard to distinguish on this show, but there's just so many little jokes of like something written down somewhere and the camera doesn't zoom in on it and make sure you saw it.

It just rewards you if you took the time to look at it. Did you see Katie DiPold on script notes? Script notes, yeah. And so this is John August and Craig Mason's podcast where they talk a lot about like the very fine details of like screenwriting and production. And Mason is just like I am in awe of this show. Like you guys, do you know how hard it is to shoot that much at night?

Do you know how hard it is to like get your production design team to make the teeth game and it's going to be a one second throwaway joke? But it's like. It's just some pliers in a box. And I know from talking to Ames. Andy how hard that stuff is when he was working on Breyer Patch and he was like, yeah, like, he was like, we wanted to do this beer label on our beer bottles, but we couldn't, so we had to do, you know, it's like, and he's like, and that took like a week, a week of like cumulative

meetings about this beer bottle that's going to be in the back of a scene and to see it get like, I'm picking up on those little things and it's just, it's encapsulated in the Chris Fleming performance in this most recent episode to speak to your point about. obvious joke and throwaway joke where I mean the funniest thing that I've seen this year is him being like just don't look at a mirror and then he closes the door and this full door mirror

it's just really fucking good I just also really love the delivery of like when Patty reckon and she's like Todd O'Connor and he's like hey Patty you know just like a real throwaway is that Coke? Yeah you know or like I have to go because my girlfriend's cat absconded or whatever it's just so funny

Chris Fleming is so good in this episode but also just like something that Rob and I did in our coverage of episode five is we went through like drug trip episodes that have been like really great throughout TV history. It's a formula that like almost always hits for me. Yeah. But I really appreciated, you know, going back and looking at like Mad Men episodes or that Roseanne episode, etc. I love the artistry of Alex P. Keaton on caffeine pills. There you go. Yeah.

I love the artistry of the lights going out and coming back up as Tom. blips in as time. And it's just sort of like, especially when he's, when you come up on the gas station and the car is just sort of like, you know, off kilter and just like all the lights come back on on the set as Tom is waking up. And it's just like, it looks incredible. I always forget her name. Who's the actress who plays, um, the woman who's with him at the gas station. Oh, Rosemary. Dale Dickie. Dale Dickie. Yeah. She has now been present for two, like the fact that she is there for Patricia's, which. ceremony. Burning Man. Yeah. And then also for Tom's gas station and is completely non-blessed by either. Unbothered. New about the hag, heckled Tom into the hotel. What does Rosemary know?

What does she seen that this is just like completely unboggled? That's the thing also about this series. I've been thinking a lot about X-Files just because I know they are going to, they're obviously rebooting it with Ryan Coogler and Daniel DeBweiler. But I saw that there's like a Chris Carter director's cut coming of I want. to believe on DVD. Oh my God. On Blu-ray? Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. So I was been thinking about like maybe what a miracle that show is, but also like those were, we had something where it was like you can make something that flits in between the monster of the week and the season long story and the larger conspiracy. And I don't know that they want to make this show for eight years and ever put up episode numbers like X-Files.

but there's no reason why this couldn't have like a slow horses run where they are like I'm curious about that like how long they can sustain the mysteries and the lore like how much is going to be wrapped up at the end of this season how much do they have, does Katie have the mentality of that a lot of TV creators have now which is like put everything on the board

because you don't know if you're going to get another season or how much is you thinking about it in a long term kind of way. You know it's so funny you should mention that because I was when I was looking at episodic runs in great TV shows and maybe even not all-time great TV shows, but great episodic runs.

And so many of them, you can see the way TV changes as you go through the years to, you know, we have to go back. Lost. Yeah. Probably be in like the first season if they were doing Lost today.

Yeah, but also they wouldn't even, like by the time you get to have, we have to go back, you're 60 episodes into Lost. Yes. To go back to your X-Files point, I was actually just talking to a friend of mine who's watching it for the first.

first time right now X-Files. And she's like, I don't know that I, I don't know that it's as good as everyone was hyping it for me. And we were talking about why, you know, I was like, you got to get to the Darren Morgan episodes. And she got to the Darren Morgan episodes. And she's like, okay. Sometimes great, but there's a lot of stretch. And so, and she's a huge Buffy Vampire Slayer fan. So they were running similar at the similar time with similar episode counts. So why does that show work for her? And this one doesn't. And we were talking about the depth of the cast. Because in Both of the Vampire Slayer or on Widows Bay. We have a whole town of people that I am invested in.

And with X-Files, it's just Mulder and Scully. Like, you've got some other characters, but it's really... They're always meeting these people. It's really just Mulder and Scully. And the beauty of a 22-24 episode season, the example I always love to bring up is from Lost, which is the season three episode, Tricia Tanaka is dead, where they just Hurley and Jen and Sawyer and Charlie get a... B.W. Van restarted. That's the episode, basically. And a lot of people, like, think it's a throwaway. But it's not because you're just investing in characters and you're spending time with characters. And so those 22, 24 episode season, you know, the Pitt does this really well where we're just, we have like a broad swath of characters. It's inviting us to just hang with them and spend time with them and emotionally invest in them. And that's what Widows Bay is doing really well. Like the sort of horror trope of the weak thing that they're doing is really funny. But also, like,

I'm invested in Patricia being shunned by all the girls she went to high school with. I'm invested in Tom's relationship with his son, you know? Like, I care about Wick and Jerry's, like, dating background, you know? And, like, I'm interesting what's going on with Rosemary. What's Ruth Steele and what's happening with Dale? You know, and this is the Katie Dipple Parks and Recreation DNA that's inside of this show. But it's just created such, I don't, I would want to hang out with these characters for seasons and seasons of television. I mean, this script has been around for a long time.

like the Widow's Bay script. I'm curious, I would love to read earlier drafts of it, and I would love to know, because to me, the iceberg is nobody born on the island can leave the island. That's obviously why he's been keeping his son on the island, whether or not he, the son is truly like, because in my house we've been debating, like, if this kid's so naughty, why hasn't he tried to get onto a ferry yet?

So does he know maybe intrinsically he shouldn't? That's like the one thing he shouldn't do. but if you were to save that for the cliffhanger of the end of the first season. Right. That would be like kind of a little bit more of what traditional TV would do, but instead that's introduced, I think, in the middle of the second episode or something. Yeah. I feel like we're getting a lot of lore really quickly.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's great because, you know, that's something, of course, that's something like lost, a show that I love but was accused of withholding answers. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah.

Okay. So I want to do this little exercise with you here. Widows Bay is on episodes 4 and 5. Pretend like you have not seen any more Widows Bay. I know that you guys just recorded. They are dropping 6 and 7 together next week. Yeah. Is this a Memorial Day thing?

No. I don't think it's a spoiler to say because they've been leading up to this. Episode 6 is titled Our History. So it's like a flashback sort of thing. So I think they want to drop a more standard episode along with it to make it, you know, to not make you feel like I have to wait another week to check back in. with characters I care about. So they've begun this kind of like,

I would say episodes four and five, especially for everybody kind of responded to. I loved five as well. Yeah. I mean, you could say three is the hotel episode and you could say they've already gone on a run. In this, for the sake of our conversation, I'm classifying a run as three episodes or more.

Two episodes is good. Three episodes is a run. And so now that we're watching Widows Bay do this, I wanted to like talk a little bit about, when I asked you this question, did you have an immediate response? You know, so sometimes, you know, whenever I get to go on the watch and you give me prompts, I get excited because I love talking about the history of television.

I had already done the homework for this. Oh. Because a year ago when Mal and I were doing like our Buffy rewatches in Buffy Vampire season two is my all-time favorite run of episodes of television. And then I like, I tweeted it out. I said, is this the best run of episodes of television? And some people had some responses. So I was like, I already did my whole episode.

work, work great. So that's why it became prompt Twitter. Yeah, exactly. But Buffy Season 2, which is, and normally I would hesitate to bring my like nerdyer

genre stuff to the watch, but this is Widows Bay, so here we are. Buffy season 2, which is surprise and innocence, which is widely regarded as one of the best sort of turns of a plot that has ever happened in a show where our love interest on the show, Angel the Vampire, loses his soul and becomes the villain of the show. And this is just like early Joss Whedon.

We didn't know you could do this on television sort of stuff. So that's the two-partar surprise and innocence. Incredibly good. Fases, which is this great Seth Green, We'rewolf episode. Just like Seth Green finds out that he's a werewolf. Incredible. Be wish, Bother and Bewilder, which is Xander fucks up a spell and like all the girls of Sunnydale want to tear his clothes off. Kind of like obsession. Yeah. And then passion, which happens to be my favorite. episode of all time of Buffy Vampire Slayer, which again is another spoilers for season two of Buffy, which aired 20 plus years ago, a major character dies in the first time that Joss Whedon ever did that in a way that I was 16 when I saw it and I was like, I didn't know

you could do this in storytelling. Don't think my wife is recovered yet. Yeah. So that run to me, starting with surprise and innocence, phases in people should bother me Wilder, though they're the kind of like quirky standalone, there's a wearwolf episode, there's a witchcraft episode, they're incredibly good. And then passion is just an all-timer. And that is just like an incredible run. Did you watch it when it was on? I did. And do you remember being in the throes of like, I can't, I like literally can't wait for Buffy to

be on? This is so incredible. Did you even subconsciously understand that you were watching like a successive episode run kind of? I don't know. Well, so I'm the exact same day as Buffy. So I was 16 when this was airing. And I think I told this story. Grew up in a hell mouth. Yeah. We're in County, California. But like, my, I wasn't allowed to watch TV on weeknights when Buffy was airing. I think I probably had gotten in trouble and that was my punishment or something like that. So I had a friend who would tape it and bring it to school for me. It's so clutch. And she brought me passion. And she was just like, if you can watch this before the weekend. That would be great.

Yeah. And I found a way to do it. And I was just, but that was before, like, the internet couldn't ruin it for me. We weren't online in that way. So it's not like I was going to get spoiled necessarily, but she just really wanted to talk to me about what happened. And went passion, very specifically. That's when I knew I was watching something incredibly important and special. That you'd be thinking about for a long time.

The rest of my life. That's my number one TV death of all time, I think, just because of when it hit, like, who I was, how it changed, how I understand how television. works. Yeah. I mean, I think that was the thing that was sort of awesome about that nascent period of TV going into what we consider Golden Age and Prestige, where there's all this rule breaking happening, but because I don't even know if the executives in charge knew what they had on their hands. So like, obviously, like, I know that Buffy had like plenty of budget and, you know, headbutting going on behind the scenes with like their network execs and stuff like that. but like sometimes you would just be like home on like a Wednesday night watching something

and you'd be like is anybody else seeing this? Right. This is crazy. Yeah. I felt that way when I watched Battlestar season one. Oh yeah. I was just like, is this happening? Yeah.

Like, you know, um, my number one pick for this run that I felt pretty immediately was succession season two episodes two through four. That's Walter. That's hunting, which is born the floor. Safe Room, which is one of my favorite succession episodes of all time. Is it because of how often you love to throw water bottles in, Andy? It's just, it is the episode that I think is peaked Jeremy Strong. Yeah.

I thought that was the best. And he and he and he and shiver just like in like another like planetary atmosphere in that episode. That's the hug. It's not going to be me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then actually.

I love turn. Turn heaven. which the only reason why I sometimes give Turnhaven a demerit is it is also the first time that I got mad at Succession because I did not think Shiv and Kendall were sufficiently acknowledging what it just transpired. Now you can say like that's just that family and this is also TV and all this other things but I'm like they had like this

insanely vulnerable moment and Shiv got this incredibly important piece of information that obviously Kendall is being blackmailed not to put himself forward as CEO. Right. And so why is that not ever even acknowledged in the next episode? Like a real glee moment where like from episode to episode.

And it also felt like they reset and just became like banter twins again. So Turnhaven is awesome though. But those three I especially love. I mean, hunting incredible. Walter very good. The thing that Turnhaven does that showcases what Succession does so well

as like just introduce you to a whole new cast of characters that you have like mere minutes to sort of get, learn who all these pierces are. And it's just, and it feels very theatrical. And they got a bunch of theater talents in to play these roles. And I just... It's so funny to go see plays in the intervening years. Yeah.

How many pierces are just like in a play? Exactly. Yeah. They just raided Broadway for this episode. But yeah, I love Turnhaven. It's like the pierces and all of Gilles. olded age. Yeah.

What was another one that you liked? You already claimed some of my favorites, so I will let you get to those. But I'll do another genre one.

Doctor Who, I talk about this one all the time. Silence in the Library, this is the end of David Tennant's run as the 10th Doctor. So Silence in the Library

and Forest of the Dead, which is an all-time two-parter set in a library on a planet somewhere. And then Midnight, which is my favorite episode of Doctor Who, which is like a standalone, David Tenet with a bunch of random characters on a train. And it's just this bottle episode chamber horror piece, like essentially like an

Agatha Christie horror thing that happens on a space train. I love Midnight. Turn left, which is, which then showcases the companion of that season and then Stolen Earth and Journey's End, which is they, it was like Avengers End game before Avengers End game. They brought back all the characters. All the who's. Yeah. All the characters from all the seasons for this incredible like two-parter. That is, you know, and I think Tenet is the best doctor we've ever had. And they just gave him banger after banger. And Stephen Moffitt, who wrote Silence of the Library Forest of the Dead, like this was a real audition for her to, for him to take over, which he did when Matt Smith started as the doctor. Is it widely regarded by other Doctor Who fans as like

peak Doctor Who? Or is that like a... I will say, or is this a joke? I will say, saw this in the library for us, the dead is widely regarded as, like, an incredible two-parter, and then the two-parter at the end of the run. Midnight and turn left because they are so odd. But I think in these side of these runs, and this is a good case, I'll be curious what you think of what is Bay, episode six. Like, can you have a run of like two episodes that are very much in keeping with a show? And then a diversion. Yeah, one that's like sort of off that if it's incredibly good, does that just prove what the show can do even more? Yeah, and it's funny that I picked Succession and I was looking at some of the big blockbuster shows that we've

covered over the years and I was going through Thrones seasons. Yeah. The run up to the children is like incredible. I agree. But then you also look at the five episodes before that and you're like, those are pretty good too. Can I just do all the season four? Yeah. Yeah. Um, so that's, with genre shows and especially with shows that are adapted maybe like your- Or 10 episodes seasons. Yeah. You know. Yes. Um, my next one was, I just, I forgot that this was the case. The last three better call Saul episodes before Breaking Bad Time takes over. And this is basically the end of Howard.

And Gus's chest maneuvering with Lolo about the meth lab. Holy shit. Yeah, holy shit. I was watching clips from this last night to refresh my memory. And like Kim with Lalo and all the stuff that Mike is trying to. shows up at their, yeah, at the apartment. And also we were just so locked in because they had their plan in post-its. And so we were just sort of, I was like pouring over the post-its.

And like, and the end of Howard is so tragic. And what's happening to Kim in that moment is so hard to watch, but irresistible. And you want to root for Jimmy and Kim, but you're like, what are we doing? She's just self-aware enough to be like, I've, my soul died here. so like we can't be together anymore. Oh, it's so good. And then not for nothing, they just do more episodes of breaking back after that,

which is fucking crazy. I had a Better Call Saul run from the previous season, which is Wexler versus Goodman, J.M.M. Bagman, Bad Choice Road, something unforgettable. That might be better. That might be better. Better Call Saul was just unbelievable.

Unbelievable television. Let me ask you one. Did you have, so I put down Andor the prison arc 8 through 10 season one. Did you have a different and or arc? I do. Only because I saw you put the prison arc on there. And the Narcina arc is so good. But the Gorman arc in season two, I think also.

And like this, andor is the perfect show because you have these three episode chunks. And I was like, does the Gorman arc beat the Narcina arc for me? And I don't know what does, only because the Narcina arc is where we, we realized what we had in Andor, right? And you get the Luthin speech and you get the Kina Loy's speech like in the same fucking episode. Yeah. And it's also like the peak of like, oh, Evan Moss Backrack's going to come on for three

episode. It's just like you can't really like feel too safe with anyone. Right. Because your favorite character might get killed in two episodes. Absolutely. Nemek. Right. So yeah.

So the Aldani arc into the Narcina arc are like of season one are just incredible. the Gorman arc, I think the Gorman arc at the end of the day might be stickier for me because I know you and I were like really into tracking all of the French resistance comps in season two and then the end of the Gorman arc which we have the Cyril Cassian showdown which is one of the best moments

in all of the history of television to me. I agree with you. And then also the feeling we all had that we're almost out of Andor. Yeah, and then is three Mon Mothma's escape is the next episode. He's the next episode after that, right?

And then we only have two more, you know, like, and then it's Claire and Lonnie and real. Time was just like running the fuck out. And so like that was part of it too or it was just like, it was just slipping through our hands as we were watching it.

Yeah. Oh man. Because like when we watched season one, we were like, maybe we'll get five seasons of Andor. And then by the time of season two, you're like, Tony's like, this is it.

When I did that part with Sean, I was watching, I just kept watching the conference room scene of them putting down the shades and being like Calcite You know, we just got to get it out. What are we going to do about these Gorman people? And I was like, I don't know.

This might just be like a top five show for me of all time now. What to do about limited series or anthology series here is interesting because I think there's a lower degree of difficulty if you're just going to do six episodes for your middle block to be really good. You know, like first episode, it's like, okay, meeting these people. Last episode, there's often a little bit of a kind of like winding down clunkiness to it. usually I think you and I both have a couple of shows that either intentionally or not intentionally wound up only being one season. I threw out the middle three episodes of Chernobyl. I don't even in my mind have like a and then this happened and then this happened. I just remember the vibe of it, but I also watched Chernobyl way after the point.

Yeah. And I thought the end of Chernobyl was a bit not my speed, but like, Like the middle is just really great. And then I have episodes three through five of the first season of True Detective, which is locked room, who goes there, which is the famous tracking shot, and secret fate of all life, which is not so. So if you have any limited or one season ones, we could talk about those. Yeah, so Fargo season two, episodes seven through nine.

So did you do this? No, you did it. Lop, lop, and the castle is a flying saucer at the motel. Part of it is, part of it is like, are these three episodes in isolation really good? Yes. But part of it also is the experience of having watched Fargo season one and saying, what is this incredible episode of television? Is Fargo the best show that's ever happened?

That's how Fargo season one happened to, like, felt to me at the time. And then Fargo season two happened, another incredible cast. But at first I was like, I don't know that they have it. And I'm unsure about Kirsten Dunst here. And like, is what I want from Jesse Plumman's and et cetera, et cetera. Allison told me in season one or two. Two. Two.

Yeah. And then, no, she's, she's season one, sorry. Season one. She's season one. Okay. Because season two is when you have Patrick Wilson playing, Keith Hurting. Yeah. But Kristen Miliotti is here.

It's incredible cast. Santa McClernan is here, et cetera, et cetera. But when you get to the motel and it's just like fly, you know, Kirsta Dunn's saying to Jesse Plumman's, yeah, it's a flying saucer, Ed, we got a goal. You're like, oh, Barco's season two rifts, you know? And so that's when you get the reassurance, the same thing can happen with Andor,

because I remember the first three episodes of season one of Andor, we were all like, we're not entirely sure. Of season one. Of season one. And then the Aldani and Arkinna. So, like, when you're like, oh, they know they're cooking, they know what they're doing. Like, that feeling is so strong.

Yeah, for Andor, it's very specific. because we didn't have the pre-existing, even if it was like in the press notes, you didn't really understand how it was going to feel to do. It's the three episodes. And then there's going to be a time jump and a location change and a character ensemble change. With Fargo, I remember feeling like so cynical

about the TV project in general. Oh, yeah. You know, and then by season two just being like, this is actually like an incredible proof of concept that TV can do stuff that's just truly, truly remarkable when it comes to adaptation and riffing. I couldn't decide what my watchman run was. You put this down.

But I knew it was in there and I think you nailed it. But this is another good example of like I know it was in the middle for me somewhere. But you, I think you're going towards the ending, right? Or the second half. It's close, right? Little Fear of Lightning, this extraordinary being an almost religious awe. God walks into a bar and see how they fly. Yeah.

You know. That's like half the season. Yeah. You could trim Little Fear of Lightning. and see how they fly off and just do this extraordinary being an almost religious awe and God walks into a bar

and just sort of absolutely crush it. I mean, Watchman is so special. It's really cool that when, because do you ever, if you ever listen to, Damon was on House of R

or Damon Lindelho went on House of Art. It was an awesome, awesome podcast. Thank you. Now being aggregated to death, but that's okay. But I still kind of freak out like sometimes I'll be talking to him

and I'll just be like, God damn, you made some hits. You made. Lost, you made the leftovers. I know. This extraordinary being, being the like nostalgia episode, right? Yeah.

Like one of the best episodes of television ever. And then God walks into a bar also being like God tear television. So that, that, that, that, those three and almost religious, like, watchmen. I know. Remember how Watchman happened? I know. Thank you so much for doing this. You don't want to talk about Lost though since we're here with David?

Okay. So was, if I was like, what's the three best episode run in Lost? is there a run that comes? Is it season 317 through 20, which culminates with, we have to go back, or is there a different one? I think without question,

it is greatest hits through the Licking Glass Part 1, through the Licking Glass Part 2. We have to go back. Because the greatest hits, which is this Charlie episode, like leading, you know, talking about TV deaths, right?

The death of Charlie at the end of season 3 of Lost, Spoilers for Lost, is incredible television. Spoilers for Better Call Saul, too, I guess. Sorry, Howard. But like, Charlie, as a character,

on rewatching loss, you know, I did a podcast rewatching every episode of loss. And like, Charlie, the character does not work for most of season three because they had the way that Damon puts it, they arched out Charlie. They like did all of his stuff too early and then they just didn't know what to do with him, right? And so they, um, so he's just like running back the same you know, drug loop over and over again.

And so you're frustrated with his character. And then you get something like Greatest Hits, which is Charlie going back through the moments of his life that he's sort of, like he's been given this prophecy, you're going to die, brother, right? And so the episode before he's going to die. And like, you know, you're watching television and you're like, are they going to subvert that? What are they going to do?

No, he just dies. It's going to be a force ghost. Yeah. But you care so much more about it because you have this episode before, which could feel cheap if not done well of just sort of this one character reflecting back on his life and all the little moments that he is proud of, a time that he helped a woman who was getting her purse snatched, the time that he was at a community pool with his dad as a kid. But it's just, it's done so well and a perfect encapsulation of what

the lost flashback structure can do. That leading into Charlie's death, which coincides this big lore, it was a flash forward. You were watching this whole time moment, which like the sort of Buffy thing changed television for everything. and people have been chasing that high forever, I don't think you beat it. It's so good. Was there a different Thrones run? No, I think the end of four is like,

because I can name you isolated standout episodes that I think are better, but in terms of like, because I really think five is when, I think five is when things start going wrong for Thrones and that's earlier than a lot of people think. No, that's six. Six.

Five is like Sons's wedding and stuff like that. Okay. I think five is the early, germs of things going wrong. I remember five. When's Hard Home? Five. Five.

Five. Because Hard Home is when I kind of was like, oh, I wonder if it's going to feel like this where there's like two or three episodes that are like, oh, pretty good. Yeah. There's sort of Game of Thrones episodes, but it's a lot of like two people walking and talking. And then there is a blockbuster movie. And then there's three episodes. And then there's a blockbuster movie.

Yeah. But four, four I remember just being like so. fully captivated and also like so, so invested with the characters at that point. Yeah. And like the way that the children ends with a joke we used to make at the time is everyone you love is on a boat. Like all these people just like getting on a boat to go. So the possibility of like opening the world was so exciting. And then that's just like a problem they had. And the world got too open and they had to bring him back down.

But four I think is like and on rewatch it's the last for me, the end of four. is the last time where I'm like, they just knew exactly what they were doing. It almost is like that's when it felt like they still wanted to keep making it. Yeah. You know, or they weren't thinking about.

Or they were excited, super excited about it. I'd love to be back in Los Angeles. Joe, thank you so much. You're champion for doing this with me. I really appreciate it. Thanks to Kai and Kaya for producing today.

Andy and I taking Memorial Day off. I'm sorry to Sidney Sweeney. I hope that whatever happens to you on Sunday night, we'll hold until Thursday. Rob and I are going live on Sunday. See, this is why you're you. No, no, it's just like ill-advised, I think, to do a live reaction to euphoria. I just, I'm going to the Pacific Northwest, man.

You're living a better life. Your work-life balance is better than mine. I think we're about equally deranged, yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll be back next week. Take care. Hey, y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if, like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old.

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