The Watch - Talking 'Blade Runner 2049' and 'Mr. Robot' With Sam Esmail (Ep. 194)

Episode Date: October 12, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald review and celebrate Denis Villeneuve's ambitious new film, 'Blade Runner 2049' (3:00). Later Sam Esmail calls in to further discuss 'Blade Runner 2049' and other works by director Denis Villeneuve (26:00) before discussing the latest season of his show, 'Mr. Robot' (40:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I'm at EarthRanger.com and joining me in the studio, he just got back from his Vegas residency. It's Andy Greenwald! Listen, I've been chastened. I had a lot of parry at some counters and jokes off of your intro there. But I was warned repeatedly not to spoil Blade Runner 2049 immediately.

Yeah, well, we want to give people a chance. It's going to say so in the title. When you're looking at your podcast delivery platform, it will say special on Blade Runner 2049. But, you know, I just want to give people a quick second. Let's give them. Let's prepare everyone. Let's let people know what they're dealing with here on this Thursday Reap edition of the Watch on the Ringer podcast network. Boom!

You're getting good. You're back to fighting weight. I'm getting my reps in. Fun show today. Because you and I are going to talk Blade Runner 2049, with some degree of specific. We were going to talk about it. Then, after a little bit of time of us talking about it, we're going to bring in the heavyweight.

The homie. We're going to bring in the homie Sam S. Mel. Is Sam been on the most times of a watch guest? Is Sam now the Tom Hanks of the watch? What I would say is Sam definitely gives me the most notes about the watch. Executive produced by Sam Asmel. I got a text from him after Monday in which he said, good show today.

Still no talk about television shows. Oh, he doesn't like it when we talk about the industry, does he? He was just like, he said, but a nice reunion. So he's going to come in pretty hot. So he's coming on to talk about Blade Runner 2049. And then we will transition to talking about what people probably want to hear from him, which is about last night's season three premiere of Mr. Robo. Yes.

So it's stacked. But also, it's going to flow, I think. You're running hot. I want you to take the pill. You take the ball. Do you tell me what you thought of Blade Runner 2049 to start with? Let me start with a question. Why did everyone think I was going to hate this movie?

Because it's long. Good point. Yeah. I was angry when I looked at the runtime. Not going to lie to you. A little concerned. I was waiting for the like, hey, just got to say not going to have time to knock this out. You know what?

I was a little late picking up my kid. Yeah? But I knew that going in. That's the ultimate sacrifice as a pop culture soldier. Yeah, I thought you were going to like it because it was long running time. And I thought maybe tonally it might be a little like over serious for you. I have a lot of comments about that. And at times it was.

but let me start with the broadest possible strokes, broader than Dave Bautista's wingspan. Yeah. I loved it. Yeah. I loved it. This movie gave me a lot of pleasure, and I enjoyed the entire experience of watching it.

And we are going to get into it. I think there are many, many nits to pick. But overall, it was an extremely enjoyable entertainment. It was an extremely ambitious work of art, cinema, cinematic art. Yeah. And primarily, and I think this is on brand for me to say this, I was really pleased that this, unlike a lot of movies, certainly high concept, high budget genre movies,

this did not feel corrupted by television. No, it did not. And I know that I am often advocating for television, and when we complement things like the Marvel Cinematic Universe, it's because it's using the language of television to tell stories on the big screen. The biggest flaws in this movie were the ones that were related to plot. which is often the case, I think,

in terms of just getting from here to there, like unpacking a mystery. All told, though, this made me thrilled to be in the movies because it didn't need to be completely burdened by that, by those tropes. It could just move, it could fade, it could play with tone and expectation and just experience.

It was experiential. Absolutely. I compared seeing this movie, and this is pretty bougie of me to say this, but it's like a tasting menu, where I felt like I was in the hands of a chef, and in this case of Linu. and the director, Denis Villeneuve.

And I felt like he was making me submit. You know, he was making me submit to his... Is that a tasting menu or some sort of S&M dungeon? No, because, like, there are lots of, like, chefs will be like, here's, like, 14 courses, and I'm going to determine when you feel like you can't take it anymore, then I hit you with the sorbet. You know, that's when I hit you with Harrison Ford, an hour and a half in, you know, and you're like, this is so heavy. And it's strange for me to say this.

I adored this movie. I really loved it. Yeah. Even though I almost fell asleep in the middle of it. And I rarely get tired in the movies, but I was like, there was a hypnotic middle act that I thought was very like quiet tonally. It was very monochromatic for a while. A lot of it is in the Los Angeles stuff with, and when McKenzie Davis's character

and takes on or rather the joy takes on McKenzie Davis's character. But, you know, overall, when you start to get towards that conclusion, you start to like go further and further and the Harrison Ford part happens, you start to feel yourself get picked up again. And it was like to feel like I was being orchestrated. I was being manipulated, not in a way where like my emotions were being in the daily, but like my senses. Yeah, I have, that was really cool. I have to say, Armand Dune. Yeah. I'd love to say it. I'll say it. I'll say it again. Armand Deney is now, it is clear, he is the prince who was promised for this time of movies. And what I mean is he maybe, maybe alone. I mean, I'm, I'm.

Maybe Ryan Cougler when we see Black Panther, but at this moment, Denis Villeneuve is the guy who can find the space to make art within the machine. Yeah. Within the machine of how Hollywood makes movies today. The fact that he snuck in this incredibly Trojan horse, and I don't mean Trojan small buried in an incinerator horse,

The way he Trojan Horse, this very bizarre, psychosexual drama, basically, into a huge-budget science fiction franchise movie is truly remarkable. Yeah, this weird futuristic vertigo. The scene you're talking about. Specifically, I wanted to talk about that scene, which is when there is basically their four hands, none of which are human, caressing Ryan Gosling's robot body, for quite some time. Well, McKenzie Davis is a human. isn't she? No, she's a robot too. Yeah. Okay. They have that conversation in the, in the, bizarre. And also, she's part of the, the replicant. Oh, I thought because I thought she says to him,

you don't like real girls. Well, I think that's part of the, that, that's part of the raised eyebrow. Oh, okay. She is more of a real girl than joy. Yeah. Well, yeah. Um, that scene goes on for a while, and I'm like, how is this even here? How did he have the stones or the talent or the vision or the lever? Or the to keep the scene in this movie. And there are a number of scenes like that. He plays with, I mean, he's just a masterful visual director, obviously, but he plays with scale and silence and physicality in a way other directors don't seem to know how to do in contemporary movie making.

Because obviously there's a huge amount of CGI in this too, but there's so much stillness, there's so much quiet. There's so much sense of physicality, you know, the statues in the desert, the smashing through walls, you know, that grounds you and exhilarates you, even though this is very much a movie of today. It's strange for a film that feels so widescreen and epic, and every frame is filled with so much sort of painterly play, like, painterly use of light and color. And to that, we have to give a lot of credit to Roger Deacon's, his cinematographer. He's works on most of Denneville News. stateside films except for arrival arrival which was shot by Bradford Young who is

who is Roger Tickets right but one of the things I loved about Blade Runner 2049 was its willingness to obscure things it's not actually oh we have to show every part of what it's very dark and it's very gray and it's very foggy and you don't always see there's a suggestion of what's underneath these like these roofs and everything else when you're doing that overhead shot that's flying into Los Angeles for the first time, and it looks like fields of solar panels or whatever it is, but then you can see there's a city underneath. He's willing to not show you something, and that is sort of, that's something that Spielberg was always really great at, where he would, you know, not show you the shark. He would show you

someone's face reacting to a dinosaur rather than the dinosaur at first. He understands that sometimes it's the tantalizing, not quite getting it. That is the thing that is so wondrous about going to the movies. Also, there is a mastery of detail where the production, I wish we had started this podcast with the production designer's name in front of us, because the cars, you know, the door of Dave Batista's farming shack where he farms the bugs, the sound of the old-fashioned cooking pot where he's cooking garlic. I mean, this is all, I'm just naming things in the first 30 seconds, which may cause people to suspect I didn't actually see the movie, but I did. they're all so considered and so well chosen so that when you get the beats that probably in a pitch session, or on a studio notes called before they even shot it,

the beats that got more conservative executives excited, when you get to them, it is thrilling in a way action movies rarely are anymore because everything is so telegraphed or it's always one note. I'm thinking specifically of when he gets to the wreckage of Sandy and then there's the drone strike on those guys. I mean, it is heart in your throat and it's exhilarating. There's the best movies... And just the post with her getting her nails done

and she's controlling this drone through her sunglasses. Dennis Gassner, by the way, is the person new to the production side. I mean, the amount of thought that went into all of this is staggering. Now, I don't know whether to start with this or end with this, but I think my biggest question coming out of the movie, after I googled the names of Sylvia Hokes, Herks, I don't know how to say Dutch names, or Carla Jury,

or these incredible performers who play, you know, who have supporting roles, who come in, like, I mean, who are astounding actors in that scene, in those scenes. Yeah, yeah. My main question was, who the fuck thought this was going to make money?

Well, for real, for real. So you're talking, you're like the stones on Denny Villeneuve to have this 20-minute sequence where there's four hands running on, and honestly. I mean, maybe I flipped too quickly between art and covers. And to be honest, like, you know, that scene, you've written scenes before, like, do you usually have to have a destination you're getting to within any kind of dramatic scene?

Like, a character needs to do something. So McKenzie Davis needs to get this bug, this tracker inside of his coat pocket. It doesn't need to have 20-minute psychosexual, hitchcocky and love scene to get there. They could have just gotten it done like 45 seconds. What's really interesting about this is executive produced by Ridley Scott. It's really Scots, for lack of a better term, even though Philip K. Dick wrote the novel, which this is based off of, and Harrison Ford has been associated with Blade Runner for 35 years or whatever. It's really Scott's vision. And many people say his master's.

And a lot of people, I disagree with that, but a lot of people think it's his masterpiece. You love Kingdom of Heaven. You know, he's made a lot of movies, a lot of movies recently. And this one was written by... Hampton Fanchard. And Michael Green, who also wrote Covenant, which is a mess. It's a mess of a movie. What's interesting is that...

So Ridley Scott, he's been making these blockbusters. He's got a name as big as anybody out there. His movies don't have these kinds of idiosyncratic parts. Certainly not anymore. There's some stuff in Prometheus. I mean, Prometheus I actually have a lot of time for. But fast bender shooting hoops. I mean, that's that kind of reverie we're talking about.

But imagine fast bender shooting hoops was the first 15 minutes instead of the first two minutes. I mean, there's a certain... I don't know whether or not it's got to do with age or your desire to make something happen. but there is a real almost rebellious streak inside of the filmmaking. And it is kind of fascinating to see those guys like this, you know, Warner Brothers and Sony who are the money behind this, just being like, yeah, three hours. Let's do it. Three hours and you're like, oh, well, you need to tell the story.

It's like, no, they just want to hang out in this world. Yeah. And that's how I left it. I mean, in the beginning, I was starting to think, oh, well, I get some of the criticism or post-game analysis I've seen, which says that people are exhausted by dystopia, particularly now that we're living in one. And I'm very sympathetic to that argument.

But by the end of this film, the reverie, the tone, the feel of it, I was sad to leave it. And that's a total surprise to me. I think that these are the sort of backroom stories I would love to hear about. I mean, there are things that we can, in many ways Hollywood is more transparent than ever

in terms of how movies get made, and we talk to, you know, We talked to filmmakers and we talked to production designers. We get, you know, things are leaked to the Hollywood Reporter about who's to blame. How this managed to get made might not be unpacked for a while. How we got this screenplay, which was certainly not without flaws, but actually does kind of seem like a synthesis between old and new, because Hampton Fancher is in his late 70s, he wrote the original Blade Runner.

And then Michael Green, who's an incredibly talented guy and is doing... Wrote Logan, wrote Alien Covenant, yeah. And is doing... and did American Gods and why the last man, upcoming TV show if they ever actually get it together in FX. But he's more of a modern TV brain. Sure. So this film does feel like a collision between older cinema

and a little bit more contemporary TV plotting in terms of how it fit together. How they synthesize those two visions is an open question. But, I mean, I does seem like Ridley Scott pushed for Villeneuve. He made a rival profitable. He made an original movie, a rival that made money. That's pretty much all it took. to get to this point.

But let's think about how we got to the larger point, which is that Blade Runner lost money when it came out. It is a cult classic, one of perhaps the cult classic. And in fact, probably, and this has been written a bunch, but the fact that it does have eight different cuts and has gone through so many different, you know, this is the director's cut,

this is the 30th anniversary cut, this is the original theatrical cut, this is the European theatrical cut, is part of its legend. So that's part of why it's held in such a cultish kind of regard is because it's not finished. And really Scott's a tinkerer

You know, and that's been written about before About how he likes to tweak things What was your going into this movie? What was your last Encounter with the original Blade Runner? And how much of that did you carry into this movie? So Blade Runner is a movie that I I think I've tried to get my wife to watch

Once Every Five Years And also, but I don't want to make it sound like she It's not that she doesn't like it As much as I'm like, oh yeah, this is a little slower than I remember. Mm-hmm. So you turn Blade Runner and you're like, yes.

Here we go. Let's run some blades. It's the first interrogation scene and the first shots of L.A. and then you're like, man, it's a dragon a little bit. Like this scene, and then there's like a couple of fight scenes that are like 10 minutes each. Yeah, it's like punching in the rain. Yeah. So I admire Blade Runner, but it is not like a foundational text for me.

I actually think I enjoyed this Blade Runner 2049 more. What about you? Are you like, have you been thinking about the mysteries of Blade Runner for most of your life? I mean, I saw the movie, I think when I was supposed to. do at a good time when I was like in high school when I was yeah it's like oh it's blows my mind get ready to have your mind blown here you go and then I probably saw it at least one other time since then but my memories of it are very experiential you know I remember the way it looked I think I remember the way it felt I remember the ending I remember the music but going into this and I appreciate this

and I wonder if other people's experience was different I did not realize that they were talking about Sean Young's character as the linchpin of the plot yeah until the CGI knew So when they were talking about Rachel before, you didn't remember that that was her. I thought, well, I just didn't remember. So I thought either this is what they're talking about or they're just inventing some middle story. So we hadn't actually gotten to because I definitely didn't remember. They didn't really spend a ton of time. I mean, there's this, that blackout, I think, happens, which it takes place in between the two films that they reference a few times.

What do they call in? Do they have a name for it? Well, they said it's the blackout and they lost all their data. Yeah, they don't have to loss all the data and there's these corrupted files in various archives. I learned this from the website Wikipedia. They've made a short film, a couple short films to connect dots. Oh, cool. And one of them is about the blackout, which I guess was some sort of would-be, would-be revolutionary slash terrorist, blew up a dirty bomb, like a magnetic bomb above the city in order to do this.

To break Tyrell's corporation, blah, blah, blah. So here's what I wanted to ask you about, and we're talking a lot about the plot. But, you know, the ending is pretty ambiguous. There's been a theory that Mark Millar, the comics writer and screenwriter, came up with that has been passed around a lot that kind of came out over the first weekend. That's basically that K is just a figment. He has an implanted memory in Deckard. Just because also the two names that he has, Joe and Kay is joke. Oh.

I thought it was like Joseph K. We're talking Kafka. I actually think that that stands that's better for me too. I think a lot of what people are trying to figure out is the fact that it's snowing on him when he dies and inside of the like safe room. Why is there the double snow?

And she's got, she's playing with snowing. She's still controlling his memories. That's kind of a mirror of the original ambiguity, ambiguous ending of is Deckerd a replicant and how long can Decker and Rachel live if they are replicants?

Which they played nicely with in this. without giving us one thing or the other. Yeah. Watching this film, I think it's a testament to its accomplishment on a technical side, I didn't really find myself too bothered by it either way. Which? The ending of the film and also just sort of like, just general theme of like, you know, what is the difference?

What's humanity? What's a soul? I thought they did some very smart. I mean, they had a lot of time to think about this. And they meaning all the studios behind it, Ridley Scott, Hampton fan. or whatever. And I thought they chose wisely in the story they wanted to tell. I thought it made a lot of sense to have a replicant be the hero.

And this is in A.O. Scott's Review in The Times, you should read that if you haven't already. Like the way he describes Gosling as the perfect actor for this and the way that he's used in the movie is perfect. Pivoting towards this idea of, you know, of robots as slave labor and is who gets to be treated as human. I mean, these are much more, these are certain, these are universal themes, but they feel a, a relevant way into the universe now, as opposed to, are we really all going to be eating Japanese noodles? Like, what are we doing?

You know? It's an interesting way in, in terms of our empathy and our interest. Also a good job of keeping human characters front-center, so we didn't feel like it was just a robot show. I thought Robin Wright's character, Joshie or whatever, her name was. She was a great audience avatar of just, like, shouting.

Because everybody's pretty placid in this movie, everybody's, you know. What did you think of Lido? Well, before we get to that, that's the big... Well, we should get to Sam, so I just wanted to ask, like, what you... So we can talk about this with Sam. It just... The last thing about Villeneuve that I think is so impressive is the way he uses the tools he's given. Yeah.

Understanding why Harrison Ford is one of our great movie stars, even, you know, in his advanced age, like, what Harrison Ford can do with his face, with stillness, with reaction. This is what he is great at, you know, with obviously. he gets a lot of credit as dessert for being sardonic or one-liners, but his reaction shots to what he's told and what he experiences are terrific. Him being stuck in a ship that was getting filled with water was in the original script.

I think that was like a day of like, Harrison, we are going to keep you handcuffed to the chair, and the water is going to come up, and he's just like, fuck. I mean, this dude literally basically died in a plane crash a year ago, and then somehow is fine, and they were like,

we're going to drown you for two days of shooting. That was pretty shocking to me. pretty surprising. Also, like, he didn't have to punch so much. I know. He didn't have to. But he did. Yeah, it's a big open question, and we'll throw this to Sam when he joins us, is the Lido stuff. I have a lot of questions about what movie that was. It was, I think, very healthily quarantined in a lot of ways from the rest of the film. I thought it was interesting to read that Villeneuve's first choice for the role was David Bowie. And I would have loved, obviously, because it would have meant Bowie was still alive, but I would have loved to have seen that version of it because, and I don't mean this to disrespect Lido who like went for it.

He made choices. He made choices. That's what you got to do. But he definitely seemed like no one, like he was left off the email about like what the movie felt like. Yeah, but in fairness, it's an impossible character in a lot of ways. Yeah, Tyrell, I mean, like in the original, that guy's pretty strange as well. But I think that he has, he feels more embedded in that world. Like, it's believable that this guy is like a corporate magnate in that Blamey in a world. Whereas the Lido character, you're just kind of like, this guy is the most powerful person on the planet. He's so young, even though he's older than us.

He still reads as young. And this idea of this person who saved the world once and is now changing the world again, they've already gone to nine worlds in the back of his technology, that was a little bit off. That said, the body horror or body, I don't want to say just horror

because there are moments that are quite beautiful at that birth scene that turn to horror, the movie is so dense that we haven't even touched on that. That exists in a mainstream film. I am not shocked that this movie is losing money, but I'm grateful that it exists. And I think it would be great to bring on a director himself to talk to us about why this is so good. Let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsors, and then we'll be back with Sam Esmail.

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You've got to get this in your life, Sonos. We are now joined live from the mixed stage somewhere in Culver City, our good friend, friend of the pod, Mr. Robot creator, cinephile, Sam S-Mail. Sam, how are you? I'm doing well, guys. How are you? I'm so sad I'm not there.

I wish you were here, too. Sam, before we get into it. And it's a glorious sunset at Gower Studios. By the way to out us. I thought we were as incognito here in the middle of Hollywood. Oh, oh, yeah. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Yeah, yeah. A couple points of business we have to get to before we get into it.

One, you know, we obviously the lay of the land has changed since we last spoke on the podcast. You and I are both on the wrong side of 40 now. I think that's important because if I have to suffer, you have to suffer too. Yeah, I mean, guys, 40 is not the new anything. 40 is pretty much 40, and it's pretty miserable. Chris Ryan sitting here at 39 and 11 months is just sipping tea. He loves it. I don't know if I...

I don't know. You guys, life... Every day, life is just another new dream come true. Two, you've also now joined the club of being married. Congratulations. Thank you. That I love. You know, that's great.

We had a fun wedding. It was 40, not so much. You know, Chris and I were ready with mics to do the wedding after show. And what's weird is none of the guests agreed to appear on it. but that's okay. I don't think Emmy would have wanted us to do that. Third note, that I have to say, in the interest of full disclosure, something you know, Sam, you and I have been working together, we've worked together. That'd be amazing if Sam did not know this.

That would be super weird. So we're not going to get into specifics, but just, you know, obviously my criticism, you've always found it suspect, but in this case, when we're talking about S-mail projects, obviously I am, I at least have one foot in the tank, is that correct? Is that fair to say? Are you looking at me like I'm like the Columbia Journalism? I got the ombudsman here and I got Sam somewhere in Culver's City. So, so that's, but I did not work on Mr. Robot.

So we can talk about it. You did not work on Mr. Yeah, but you, you have, we have work. There has been work. We've put in work about the gangstar song plays in the background. So let's get into, let's get into this. Let's get into, before we talk about Mr. Robot itself, Let's talk about Blade Runner 2049.

You, I know as a fan of movies, but particularly a fan of the original Blade Runner, must have been going into this with very high expectations. According to Twitter, which never is the source of poor information, this hit the mark for you. You love the film. Yeah, I mean, and so, again, not comparing it to the original. I mean, he has photographs. 245, about? Yeah. Yeah.

And I got to say, I felt it a little bit. I mean, again, I just love the tone in the world. I'd hang there for hours. What did you guys think? I mean, Andy, I'm more curious about you because I'm a feeling, I don't know that. No, so people who are listening to the podcast have heard me go on about it, so in which, which I'm sorry, we didn't, we didn't let you listen to. You had some skepticism, right? You were like, no one's talking about it.

There's no. Yeah, we were both kind of a little bit suspicious about the fact that there didn't seem to be that six week to two-month advance word. Like, this is really good. You guys even kidding. Because, you know, there's movies like now, it's like practically everybody who was going to see called me by your name has seen it. Like, I haven't seen it. But, like, you know, there are some of these movies that are really, like, critically lauded that seems like they've been through three festivals already. But it also seems like there's been a flip now where the movies that are sort of gliding in, the expensive movies that are gliding in relatively under the radar are the success stories.

There's so much chatter now about problems, you know, problematic films and reshoots and reshoots and sales jobs by marketing teams trying to fix things. So much like everything we haven't heard anything about The Last Jedi, which makes me think it's going to be great. Similarly, Blade Runner just sort of, I guess, sailed through and is exactly what Villeneuve intended it to be. And I thought it was triumphant for that reason. I just think it's a completely immersive, beautiful, haunting piece of cinematic art that was actually, for me, it was really enjoyable despite the running time. That was my biggest reservation was the running time, to be honest with you. Yeah, and honestly, I thought before it's open, I mean, that that wasn't going to go. But, you know, I think Villeneuve doesn't mind letting things breathe home

and the feeling that that might be a big factor. Commerce and box office aside, can you, as a director and as a director who is working in today's Hollywood cinematic, whatever, economy, can you explain to the layman why Vilnove seems so exceptionally good at this, at being able to Trojan horse art films into, and obviously this wasn't palatable to everyone, but he's still getting the budgets and he's getting the franchises and he's continuing to work. Why is he so particularly suited to these times?

Master of tone. I mean, I keep going back to that. The frame from scene to scene, it's never, and he's also very, you know, very specific, very record of that point number six. Yeah, since 13, so prolific. I mean, just, and they're each so exceptional. It would be, I mean, for me,

it would be hard to kind of start ranking them. There's not a dud in there. And that's just confident he is in his vision. And, you know, not necessarily. I don't know if you guys. I find enemy really funny. Yeah. It's really funny.

But, you know, in a dark way. And the fact that it's still so accessible finds a way to. You know, there's something that's, I hadn't really thought about it until I heard you talking, Sam. But there's something really interesting about the way that when you think about, especially Sicario and Blade Runner, and even a rival, he does. something that you actually do too with Robot, where it's essentially these very limited character dramas. When you think about how many people are actually of any characters of any significance in these movies, you're talking about three, four maybe? And yet the world behind these characters is so deep. And it goes so far out into the landscape. And you can just see, you know,

like, oh, there's there's ruins of San Diego, which is just a landfill now. And it, you know, and it's that same thing. I just was noticing that last night when there were shots in the robot premiere where, you know, you're going by and there's like a FEMA tent and they're handing eye, but you're not stopping to belabor like, and then the FEMA people showed up at this point. And it's that, it's that really interesting thing where you take what is assembly, essentially a chamber drama. Like there's a large part of Blade Runner that's like him walking into a room and trying to solve a case, you know? But the world in which he is solving this case is so, incredible. I was just wondering if you ever think about the balance between like, well, you know, I'm going to have this huge world, but I'm going to keep the perspective dialed into these two or three characters.

Yeah, no, I mean, you need to do that because, and that's where, honestly, that's where, like, when I say tone, that's where I think that could get unruly. Yeah. I mean, it's intentional. I think, that's why I think his films feel grounded and maybe feel more adult. Yeah, it's not about the set piece. It's about the guy going or the, or the, or, or. or the girl going through the set piece. He finds the perverse and almost the avant-garde in these very knowable settings. You know, suburban Pennsylvania for prisoners,

a Canadian city and enemy. Or that scene in the beginning of Sicario in Arizona, where it's just the bodies are in the house. Yeah, right. And it's just, he finds this sort of almost the, like, the cancer underneath. The bodies buried in things is a recurring view. Yeah, right.

And he finds a way to length these movies. A lot of body harder in this stuff. But think about that great set piece. in Sicario where you're with Emily Blount's character, you're stuck in traffic. And they're literally guys with guns and other cars. But you're stuck in this car with her. I mean, you know, in lesser hands, that would have been a million and one wide shots and guns firing everywhere. And, you know, and again, just down to the details. Not just with the cinematography where you're literally just, you know, sound like of being in the car. This is a question about Blade Runner, but it's

probably as good a time as any to segue a little bit into Mr. Robot because I think you face a lot of the same, you have to consider the same balancing act. And what that is is, and I said this at the beginning of the pod, watching Blade Runner made me so grateful that it was a movie and grateful that it hadn't been infiltrated with a lot of the TV storytelling ticks or tricks that I often applaud in TV and sometimes recently in movies. What I mean is, you know, it left us in places. It brought us into places. It transitioned. It didn't have to always explain everything. I'm thinking about that sudden cut to the forest where Stilene is making a memory of the bug. And we don't know where we are. And there's that deep sense of dislocation that we've actually, that we historically went to

movies four. And now in TV, often, you know, we don't, audiences want to be comforted even while they're challenged. So I guess somewhere in there is a question about how you are, are finding, as you're into year three of your show, coming at it from a cinematic perspective, coming at it from a director always first, how you are managing that balance. Because one of my great joys in the season three premiere are these little autori grace notes, like when Elliot mutes the world, you know, or when you jump cut to scenes from our present day into this story. You are giving us some unsettling images and unsettling storytelling ideas. that we're not expecting, but you're in year three of a serialized TV show.

Yeah, well, I don't know if I think about it that externally. And what I mean by that is I don't know if I take a step back. I think I'd go back to what I, you know, the path to be organic, I don't care about it. I know he was looking. And then for a while he thinks he's the kid, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then he thinks he's the kid. But that's not to me the important part.

The important part is the character. and the journey and what they're going through, and all those other things are just the McGuffins, the excuse. And so those details always, like if I'm trying to put you in his head, that's where the idea is like that to me is where I always want to keep you. And by the way, that sometimes will be disorienting. Yeah, that's... That sometimes will be inaccessible.

And I think that's okay. I think you touched on that a little bit when you were talking about Blade Runner. You were like, yeah, you know, like there were times where I found it challenging, but it never lost me. When you're making a piece of visual art like that, when you're making a narrative, a show or a film or something like that, how hard is it to find that balance where you're like, I want to challenge the audience a little bit.

I want to provoke a response, and that response might even be restlessness or antsiness, but I don't want to lose people completely. As a viewer, you know how that feels when you're watching it. How do you go about doing that as a creator? Well, look, you're talking to a guy that after doing very divisive, even though I may not mention it, does it feel like, again, going back to that even though I haven't, you've got to talk about it.

Yeah. You have? I have. Well, I don't know. Let me say my opinion first, and then you can say yours. That was a very divisive, divisive film. I loved it. I thought it was a masterpiece.

And I, you know, and I've gotten into debates with people about it. But the one great thing about mother is it's so time after time defied narrative logic. You could not access the movie because it intentionally kept you away. But in a weird way to Jennifer Lawrence's character, and that's why it felt so great to me. It was a pure character journey from beginning to end, even though I didn't really know what the fuck was going on half the time. Chris, I'm curious, do you...

Sam knows I didn't see it. I actually, I thought it was a blast to watch. Like, it was strange going into it because I missed it. I was away when it came out and I sort of missed the first round of everybody being like, this is one of the worst slash most upsetting Hollywood films in a long time. And I watched it and I was like, it was just gripping. You know, I think there was parts of it that I could have done without, you know, or there was, I think the last third once the rave starts kind of starts to lose me.

But the first two thirds. Suddenly I'm interested. Where it's just like Polansky on speed? Oh, my last third's amazing. What's that? Go ahead. I said the last third's amazing. I couldn't disagree with you more.

So you like it when it turns into a war zone? I mean, I loved it. I loved it because I just went in this visceral. I'll make another reference point. It's the way I fell about Twin Peaks this season, which I think is a masterpiece. It's the best show on television. Yes.

because you've irritated you for a nod. Yeah. And it just broke you, that should put you in. It really doesn't rely. If you want to know, Nicole. Right. But that's not the experience of watching it. The experience is to really kind of strap you into a ride.

And that involves tone and emotion and journey. And sure, the plot is kind of like the foundation there. But really, it's really about, you know, all those other four really engages you. Again, this is. my opinion. It's been... When you point of view, that's the risk is...

I mean, that to me is like, that's a great movie. That's his masterpiece. I think that's some... That's the sum of the score, but it got that. It got divisive reactions. We probably should talk some specifics

about the robot premiere, but what you're saying makes me think of something that I really loved about this episode, about 301, and something that I loved about what I know of the season to come, which is you have threaded through this episode, Angela's desires, and Angela's desires have now seemed to become almost supernatural and that she believes she can not only, it's not just undoing the hack or closing the back door, she believes she can change time and space and bring people back to life.

And you have a image of a large Hadron Collider in the early part of the episode and White Rose's constant obsession with time. as we all know our friend Sarah's back to the future theory about your show is potentially still in play. You are, in some ways this reminds me of something that you did in Comet in your movie, which flirts with Supernatural, but that's not what the movie is actually. Well, I shouldn't say it's not what it's about, but it doesn't go towards that in a predictable way. All of this is prologue to the fact that you know better than anyone, that your show is also a Reddit darling, that your show, has people combing through every line of dialogue, every throwaway image, and there are no throwaway

images, but every seemingly unimportant image for clues to solve it like a puzzle. You are, judging by your answers, you are comfortable with that, putting something out there and then understanding that people are going to be hunting you like a bloodhound to see whether it's quote-unquote true or not. Yeah, I mean, I'm 100% comfortable with that. I hope for their sake that's not all they do You know again, it's like the fact that you're just using the word answers And that's not what one should look for when they watch my show or any show

It's not about the answers it goes back to that word journey It's about going going on the ride I think I think the Reddit and by the way I'm a redditor So I remember doing this when I was a fan you know when I watched long There's a different level of a engagement, you can, you know, that's just another way of experiencing the same story, a little of engagement. But I hope for their sake, they're not watching the thing, watching it with like a magnifying glass, hoping to catch Easter eggs or details.

I hope they have at least a viewing where they, you know, where they kind of just... We had a, you had a really strong season premiere last night. Bobby Cannavalli is on the show now, and I completely adore his performance. I'm so excited about him being there. It's such a nice... Oh, my God, he's so good, isn't he? tonal. It's so good. It's just like bringing in a relief pitcher who can like, you know, who throws off-speed stuff and just dazzles you with it.

He's so not what I expected in that part and is so much more the welcome for it. But I guess, you know, and hopefully we'll have you to come back on to talk more about the season as it goes on. But the big question that I have, and I think viewers will be, and listeners of our show will be interested in as the season gets going, is what, how did you approach the third season and what? What changed in your approach, if anything, because famously, you know, everybody knows that the show derived from a script to which you had a beginning, middle, and end, or at least you had an outline of a beginning, middle and end. But what has changed in your approach to the show going into this third season because of two events that happened since the last season? One was, in your words, the divisive response to that season and, you know, some criticism that came your way, some of which came from this podcast. and two, obviously the election, which, you know, as Jim Panoazik from the Times was sort of joke tweeting today, it's like that Mr. Robot is now a charming story about how simple things were back in 2015.

How did those two elements change the tenor or your approach, the tenor of the show or your approach to it in a way that people might notice or be excited to hear about going forward? There was a lot, I mean, you talked about it, didn't we? I think Chris suggested Elliot had a girlfriend. Did I? Chris is always giving the network notes. The network number 2.0. Yeah, no, yes. Chris gave us notes.

Sam, what you need is a well-they or won't they? Where's the Ross and Rachel of this show, Sam? Yeah, exactly. I mean, but seriously, I mean, I know we're joking, but there was a lot of chatter of we got to do season one over again. And in fact, I think I read one review even for this season,

where somebody, man, this show should be, you know, I think, I think this show would be better if it were procedural. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, you know, you know how I feel about the, I think season two is better, what we're doing. We cannot start freaking out because the reactions of season two weren't the mess. I think I actually, after our first season, I mean, I thought we were always going to be the full, was the way it was. I think the danger, when you start, you know, and, you know, and there's a, you know, and there's a, clear antagonists and all of this, and this is what we need to give them. And I think that if you watch other shows that do the fan service, you guys have actually spoken up, and that starts to feel transparent, and then that's when things start to

feel transparent. So it was, you know, a lot of it was going in just trying to ignore. And that's all we did. We really just continued, you know, did the kind of forward march to our, not only did it not work, it made it worse, and that he needs to own response. You know, he needs to, again, I'm not Republican. Democrats thing. It's not like a policy issue. It's not about health care or anything like that. And that's a dangerous thing. I mean, he's completely unfit. None of us voted for him.

There was... So you're saying something good came from the election. That's the headline. No. No. I'm just kidding. No, we should we should somehow undo the election. But I will say that, you know, you mentioned that tweet. I think I read, he wrote a theater. saying exactly what it was, but something about, you know, when Mr. Robot started, there was the hope of this kind of, you know, it ended up being kind of, again, that was the sense in the room. I mean, I think, I mean, it was weirdly lined up in a weird way.

Well, no, it added some real pathos to that premiere because, I mean, I mentioned already, but Angela wishing that she could literally change time, that is something that I wish every morning when I wake up and look at, at Twitter. I mean, that is a human concern now. Absolutely. I mean, yeah, the fact that we could undo, we could go there and changing a couple of things

could we avoid this. But the great thing about it is, I'm saying the cathartic thing is now that it has happened, there ain't no going back. And that is kind of, you know, that is basically the... That's as good a place as any to leave us

on our conversation about Mr. Robot. Sam. I have to give you one. One last opportunity, though, I mentioned this at the beginning of the show. You have been very, and we appreciate it, you have been very free with your notes back towards us, you know, and how we can improve our show. You have the mic right now. Zach is burying his head in his hands. Yes. I mean, look, no, Zach, Zach is a dream.

I don't have any notes for Zach. Here's my thing. I watch TV. So that's what separates you from the two of us. Well, but in all seriousness, I want to hear, and what I like about your pocket is as I get to hear your opinions. And as much as I like your opinions on the Star Wars trailer, I'd rather hear it about the dudes.

I really would. I mean, when the Star Wars movie comes out, sure, talk about it all day long. Trailer, you know, I'd rather hear the dude. I'd rather hear. You just hate forks, man. What's that? I hate porgs. That's the problem. I mean, I actually didn't get that at all.

Why was there such a porg's fascination? Because there's a screaming gerbil in the trailer. It's the meme, dog. That's the meme. I'm 40. I don't understand. I don't do memes anymore. You did a couple months ago. Yeah, so that's my biggest note, though. The biggest note, you get back to the TV watching.

And Chris, stop vacationing. It's over. We've got to dig in now. It's right. I should get back to work. Yeah, but Chris should vacation while he's young. He's got literally one month left. So, Sam, our only note back to you is come back and talk to us again this season because

we love talking to you. But next time you got a Schlepp from Culver City. Yeah, you got to come on down. Or we'll come to you. Thanks, Sam. No, I have to. All right. Bye, guys.

Later. Thanks, buddy. All right. Do you still want to do Tom Petty? All right. Thanks very much to Sam. Mail, Andy and I will be back on Monday. We have actually this really fun thing that we're doing at the Ringer.

It's the Ringer's NBA preview Paloosa. It's two days of a mixture of live and pre-taped video segments, all previewing the NBA season. And Andy and I will be participating. It's going to be joining me. I'm going to be hosting a lot of these videos, a lot of this time. But Andy, the Beast has been awoken and beadback. I am so ready for this NBA season. So I think Andy's going to come on and talk a little bit about Joelle, the promised one and the process.

I'm so excited. So I'm not sure what's going to happen on Monday for the Pod Pod, since I will be on camera at that time. Oh, really? Sorry. I didn't know that. What breaking news on this podcast? Well, and you know what's weird, this is maybe not the time to say it, but apparently Katie Nolan signed with ESPN. Yeah, I'm sorry.

Dashing everyone's expectation that she was going to slide right in here. A couple other notes, Wednesday. I will be doing a live rewatchables with Bill Simmons, Jason Concepcion, and Chez Serrano. We're doing the movie face-off. That's at Largo. so if there are still tickets available, you should definitely come through if you're in L.A. Boy, a lot of these notes are Chris Centric. Sorry, man. Do you have any personal announcements?

I mean, I saw a movie. Don't I get credit for that? Okay, go on. What other notes do we have from? And that's it. I love doing my podcast with Andy Greenwald. Yes, we're right. Thanks to Zach, next to Sam Asmel. We will be back next week. Apparently, I mean, I'm not sure. Today's episode of The Watch was brought to you by Mack Weldon with a smart design, premium fabrics, and a simple shopping experience. Mac Weldon's underwear is definitely better than whatever you are currently.

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