The Watch - ‘Task’ Is Barreling Toward the End

Episode Date: October 6, 2025

Chris and Andy talk about the fifth episode of ‘Task,’ discussing Tom and Robbie finally crossing paths, the impressive performances from actors on the periphery, and the loose threads the show still has to tie up in these final two episodes (1:05). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Watch’ and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Video Producer: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, and welcome to The Watch. my name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio, my vagrant bird has come home. It's Andy Greenwald. Hold on, I'm just rubbing a little. A little just so your heart doesn't explode.

Just a little cold water. I don't know if that works. You know me. I'm pretty emo. I cannot wait to get to the bottom with Brad Engelsby at some point about whether that trick works. Well, the thing is...

Heart exploding? Is that like a loose term for it? Here's why it's a winning strategy. if it ever didn't work we wouldn't know we wouldn't know we don't have that testimony yeah that's true it has a hundred percent success rate

it's on the other side that information uh greenwald great to see you it's Monday we're here to talk about task episode five to be fair it's not Monday we are recording this in advance we're doing this a little bit in advance we've got some personal travel coming up

but we wanted to make sure that we had our recap episode all locked down and boy oh boy this is an interesting one broadly speaking I first of all let me just say I love this episode okay thank God

I was worried you were about to Zach on me I was just going to say that broadly speaking if someone perhaps wearing a hockey mask and a bulletproof recreational bulletproof vest were to come up to me one of my hitters yeah and they were like hey man

like I thought there was going to be some more gun talk in this episode I thought we were going to it was going to culminate a little Did you? Well, I think we're... What did you? I think that the way that they did it is essentially like cutting... They cut it and they'd have a cliffhanger at the most amazing moment at the end of this episode, which is called vagrants.

Yeah. And which finds Robbie and Tom finally meeting the Ruffalo Pelfree conversation that we've been waiting all season for. Just a week ago, Mark Ruffalo told us the characters never cross paths. But this is basically what I think Ingallspie does very well and what the show is on a mission to do. which is to put on equal footing and equal standing the human element of the show. What is this character's arc and journey? What are they getting out of this experience?

What are you getting out of this experience, watching them? As well as, what if we put heat and delco? I am interested that you found this episode to be more bark than bite, even a little bit. No, no, no. In terms of expectations. I said people might think that. Oh, this is how you stay.

this is Vice President Ryan. People have been telling you. If a guy came up to me and was just like, damn, dude, I thought they were going to get after it. I'm like, they're on the way to the thing. Tears in his eyes. Sir. I thought they were going to get after it.

In Chris Ryan's America, people don't get after it anymore. No. Because everyone's fine. I had that feeling more about the previous week because it was all tying, it was all heading towards the park. And I thought the park was going to be some big event.

I was. thrilled with this episode mainly because the only fireworks I was hyper-invested in was Robbie happening right here my heart was exploding

was Tom and Robbie crossing past when we spoke to a bunch of the creatives last week at Vidyats and Brad said that he took that very seriously you made the joke I was right behind you with a follow-up joke if necessary that was he going to do it in a diner

I think that was your joke that I stole, but we were reading from each other's play sheets. Oh, that's true. I thought that was pretty good. Yeah. That was kind of like the best case scenario of Liam Cohen and Robert Sala. You know what I mean? It's all within the rules. We're all sniffing out each other's scheme.

I'm glad that we're the place to come for for eight-day-old coordinator beef. Can I tell you something? You know me for a long time. Yeah. And during the majority of our time knowing each other, you know that I am an absolute hard exploding sicko for our local teams, but generally don't care about sports. Uh-huh. This is the year something switched where I have now developed, like, I think you've had this for a

while. I now have kind of a cranial itch where I'm like, is there a game on right now? If only I could have a game on. I can tell. Just any kind of game, I would watch it. I have become the target audience for ESPN the Ocho in my Quarento-o-cho year. I know, because you're just like Blake Snell's arm slot analyst. It's crazy. That dude really strikes a lot of people out. I turned that game on. I don't want to get too distracted. But your relationship to other teams is so pure.

It's like a childlike kind of like, damn, he threw that ball far and he caught it. Showing, out of the stadium. I turned on game one of Dodgers Reds when it was already 6-0. And I was like, this is for the real like seamheads. You know what I mean? You and Greg Dooley.

Just focus. Anyway, anyway, anyway. We were talking about fireworks. We were talking about heart exploding. Let me say... The Tom Robbie meeting. Here's the thing that I admired most about this episode before we get into the specifics.

I think that it's something that real long-distance runners develop. I say real because I run all the time and I don't think I have this, which is a kind of innate sixth sense of the distance left to run. And you're aware of what's in your tank. You're aware of when you can push it. you're aware of when you might need to refuel, and you carry that rhythm with you

from the starter's gun all the way through the finish line. Right. And watching the way this seven episode season has been constructed to me is a masterclass in the writing version of that sixth sense. I feel like Brad is pushing all the right buttons at all the right times and bringing those characters together in an unexpected way early, even though it is kind of late in the scheme of the show, felt both surprising and natural,

that we are midway through the fifth episode and all the cards are on the table now. Like, everybody knows who was doing the robbery. Everybody's in search of the people. Everybody is also aware of who's been selling them out. Well, not everybody. We are aware. The audience is now aware of it.

And it feels so refreshing to be in the hands of a storyteller who knows when to hold them, knows when to fold them and knows when to show the cards to advance the story that he wants to tell. And there are countless examples of shows that I feel like at this moment are either too precious with secrets or telegraphing too early that it's going to be something bigger, be a cliffhanger, blow into something else entirely. This feels expert to me.

And so much so that I had that secondary level of engagement with a show where if Robbie had killed Tom in that moment when he's walking him out of the car, if Tom had taken a shot at Robbie at the water's edge. I would have said, holy shit, but I also would have leaned in and been interested. Like, there was a version in my brain of a show where one of these two leads exited the show. Because there's so much still there. That is such a sweet spot for the audience to be in. And it's very, very hard to shout out Liam Cohen, scheme that up from your desk two or three years before you even shoot the thing. Well, here's the thing, too. It's like maybe if this show was set in Cincinnati and had different actors.

Greg Dooley would still like it. I'd be like, yo, like, okay, let's go. Let's let's like get to the, let's get to what we're getting to. But because it's Pelfrey and because of the way that he performs, especially with the last two episodes, but very specifically this episode and two scenes. One, the scene with Aaron, where he finds out that Cliff's been killed, which you have seen in countless crime shows and crime movies,

is the main character finds out that the walls are closing in, that the only partner he had is gone, that he's out of options. And the way that Pelfrey acts that moment, that revelation, because it's not just my friend died, it's the surrogate brother that was standing in for the brother that these guys also killed is now gone.

In the same way. Yes. And I think that, you know, this moment where Perry refers to Robbie as crazy Robbie. We've never heard that before. And that's really all you need to know about the character. You know, I was thinking about like, we don't know, does this guy like hockey?

Does he like to go to the movies? Like, I don't really give a shit. Yeah. It's like just having a motorcycle gang president think that he's crazy Robbie. Incredible. It's like, yeah, this guy's got maybe he's a little like, maybe he's the kind of guy who thinks you can just run away to Canada with a million dollars in fentanyl money and a family that's not really yours.

And it's such a smart, that's such a smart observation because we meet characters cold and we believe what we are shown. Or we imprint on them because you and I are both like enough from the area of where he's from. They were like, oh, I wonder if he did this and I wonder if he does that. We kind of know this guy.

Yeah, right. What we don't know, and what that one throwaway line from Perry suggests, is that maybe Robbie and his brother were balanced each other out. Maybe Billy was the together one. Maybe he was the planning one who in some ways anchored Robbie to a reality. And once he was taken off the board that Robbie spun out, we don't know any of that.

What was the, I have another moment of Pelfrey excellence that I feel is related. Oh, just, um, you were thinking of. I think that the scene in the car with Tom and, and Robbie can go wrong or can become cliche so easily. Like, you, you strive to have. have a moment where the cop and the robber confront one another. And, you know, you have these examples of things like heat where you're just like, well, how does it get better than that? And I'm not saying that this was as good as the diner scene in heat.

It doesn't really matter. But what they talked about was true to the kind of people that I think that those characters are. Yeah. And in, you know, again, there's the efficiency of some of the more ambitious writing is really shocking and really impressive, that they connected on a level of humanity. They recognize some innate good in the other, which then will be reflected in everything else that happens. I want to go back to, oh, just the other Pelfry scene I was thinking of similarly

was when he meets with Ray's wife, who this episode I realized was played by the great Mickey Sumner, daughter of Sting and star of Francis Ha. She's in Francis Ha, yeah. Yeah, one of the co-stars. That was, oh, she's great in this, especially, like just such a remarkable, memorable face. When he says, no, no, no, that's not true. True, Ray Texaclycliff last night, and you see Robbie thinking in real time.

Tell an actor think on camera. That's really hard. I believe that that's what he's thinking about. I love that scene. Another, like, kind of like, so Shelley is going to get him to the Dominican drug gang kind of thing. It is the saddest Bruce Springsteen song I've ever seen on screen, where it's just like, these two people are just fucking out of options, and they are going to do something so stupid and desperate. Because they just, they do not see another way out.

Shelly would probably rather die getting involved in a major fentanyl deal than stay with Ray. Or live another day with those goonish sons playing the Xbox. Robbie is out of time living with Sam eating crispy pancakes and may have taken care of all his kids. Do you know what's so, one of the more heartbreaking moments is a small one when he walks into Freddy's dining room after Freddy has already been like,

here's how we're going to play this. He walks in, those sad eyes are, they're just puppy dog guys at that point. He sells himself out. He just walks in with a face that says, will you adopt me? Like, will you please take me in? The thing you said about how we would feel about the show if it was in a different place, I think it was an important one to address

because we are obviously the mark for this show. And we love all of the references. There was a crazy one today. Oh, oh, some character was taking to Lankanae Hospital. That's right. That's right. They stitched up my broken wrist real good there. And so we do love that extra layer of familiarity with the show,

and it vibrates on our soul's frequencies. But I think I would love it as much if it was said in Cincinnati made by a creator from Cincinnati. Sure. And shot in Cincinnati. Because in addition to the, yeah, in addition to the beautiful production and the acting and everything and the writing, it has the two things that matter most to me.

It has just diamond sharp specificity, the names of the hospitals, It's the order at the diner, whatever it may be. But it also has this generosity of spirit that gives humanity to every character. Every character. And whether it's Shelley in that brief moment. Did you relate it?

Similarly, like the moment, it's the kind of scene that maybe, like if it was a more traditional writer's room, might get kind of steamrolled. There might not be room for it. Someone might not fight for it. Or in the edit, a weaker showrunner might say,

yeah, we don't have time for that. But the scene with Sarah, right, is Tom's daughter? Yes. The scene with Sarah. Emily. Oh, Sarah, the one. Sarah is a biological daughter. And she and Emily have this sort of little bit of a detente between themselves,

a truce. And Sarah's telling the story. To be fair, Emily wasn't really starting anything. No, okay. So Sarah reveals something of herself, is vulnerable in a way. And it's just like, you know, when you see, we go to a museum and it's an exhibit of an artist and there's like the big, the beautiful canvas, the big painting. And sometimes if it's a retrospective, there's the small sketch that they put in the room next to it or near it, you know,

or near it. So you can see how it started. That little bit of Sarah's backstory felt like a pencil sketch, but it hung in the same museum, if that makes sense. I found myself riveted by it. I felt there was truth in it and it opened up my heart to a character that was not, it doesn't enter the stage as someone you're particularly excited to see, frankly. I've continued to read the Richard Roar book falling upward. Seriously. Which is actually I find to be, as a not particularly spiritual person, it's been somewhat interesting to read it in the aftermath of my mom's passing and everything.

But there's a lot of stuff about storytelling in the book as well. And the usefulness of myth and the usefulness of storytelling to a society or to an individual. And I couldn't help but notice some of the very very, old, deeply underpinned like storytelling mechanisms that Inglesby is engaging with Robbie going back to a childhood home on the Lehigh River in the Poconos

to have this final like reckoning with his past with his anger with you know his soiled future now and I think that that's my favorite shit is when you've got something that's like this story could only be told here and in this way, but the story is the story we've been telling ourselves since The Odyssey is about a guy trying to get home, you know?

Yeah. And it's what makes Engels be, I think, a really significant writer in television today is that he, you know, you could spot some loose ends here and there, but like he's writing from a very deep place, I think, about a place that he knows very, very well. You can be successful as a screenwriter if you are incredibly good at genre or structure or dialogue or form. And I think you can be successful maybe with a lower ceiling as a writer if you are able to passionately advocate for the things that interest you and that you believe in. The real masters of the forum, I think, are able to take that fountain of like true inspiration and then funnel it into a shape that is please. It is popular, that is entertaining.

That's what Mad Men was. That's what Breaking Bad was. And that's, I'm not putting task on the level of that, but in terms of the project and the way that Brad approaches the job, I think that is what he is doing here. I think that's what he is capable of. This is not in any way intended as like a drive-by or astray, but it's an interesting contrast with the way we were discussing alien Earth

in that we could tell Noah Hawley's interests, his passions, what moved him in this story, which, by the way, is a major thing to be able to do to communicate that. I think ultimately we were mid on the show because the vessel and the message were misaligned at times.

This is a successful example of them being aligned, and it's not easy to do. Yeah, let's talk about some of the more significant moments of the episode, I think. You ever been to Bushkill Falls? I can't say that I have. I was actually looking at a map. I didn't do a ton of time. Well, I did deliq

Delaware River canoeing. But I've never, I don't really think I spent a lot of recreational time, honestly, in the Poconos to be completely candid with you. Yeah. So that far up, Route 100 is a little bit of a mystery to the kid. I'm a vet. I'm a vet up there. Okay, tell me. When I was a kid. Stroudsburg and then you keep going north or what?

Well, my grandparents were coming from Wilkes-Barre. And so there were a couple summers when I was a kid. The great steps out on Wilkespar. Yeah, totally. The Serengeti of Pennsylvania. There were a couple, like one or two summers when I was really little. They rented a small house in the summer. I remember this classic only child shit.

I remember being there with my parents and my grandparents and my aunt and uncle. And like my grandparents' friends, Julian and Miriam. It was... Not another kid in sight. Not another kid within miles. Within miles, which really explains a lot. What did you do? What did you do?

Or recite poetry? I found some, when I was home in Philadelphia recently, I found some photo albums of this time, and I'll say one thing. The adult seemed like they were having a hell of a good time. My grandfather traveled with a wet bar. Yes, it was like Bloody Mary time or whatever. And then like, I'm sort of off to the side

with a transformer or a balloon. And like, that's my experience. I remember picking Blackberries once. And then actually my other Bushkill Falls memory that I'll never forget is I do remember my parents taking me to the falls. It's beautiful. There's a few waterfalls up there. and there's like steps to climb,

not paved steps, but like wood, framed, cut out, little like dirt path up to the waterfall. And my parents are not, which camera, this will not surprise anyone. Not really the outdoorsy type. Right. And I remember it was unique that we were doing this trip because I think the martinis were being served back at the rental.

But I remember we walked up in such an odd way. And then after the waterfall, I said, why were we walking with me and the, middle. And my mom was like, I told your father to do that because in case you fell forward or backwards, you wouldn't die. Is that how steep it was? No. But my takeaway from that wasn't waterfalls or beautiful. It's that I'm one false step away from instant death. Let me get back to my balloon and my fucking care bear. I thought it was a transformer. Well, I'd both. Only child. It contains, I contain multitudes. Okay, so a couple of big moments from this episode.

Ratsso Grasso. We called it. And again, it... He withheld his sacred life force from Lizzie. That's a strange little joke. I know. But... But look, people out there, casuals, know your feelings about Lizzie.

Yeah. That clip... I'm very happy about that. That clip of you taking a knee is at... Would last check, 2.6 million views. use. Yes.

So people know what you're about. I'm just saying. He, he, I was wondering what you thought of the scene between him and Jason in so much as what you think their dynamic was. Like, you know, I'm sure we'll get,

we have two more episodes, so I'm sure we will get like the backstory on Grasso, why he's doing this. Yep. Are they childhood friends? Was he in the gang? Like, you know,

is his dad Perry? I don't know. But like, what, what did you think of their, Because I thought Jason being like, just remember who fuck you're talking to. Yeah. Obviously indicated that he felt like he had Grasso and kind of a headlock.

But Grasso is also like, do what I'm telling you to do, you know? Yes. His feeling, his behavior suggests that, you know, it's typical for a thriller. He's like, I'm in control of this actually. Yes. Which I thought was interesting. He's also, you know, this is not unexpected for the show, complicated enough that I think that his narrative of himself that he's a good guy is plausible, right?

That he's just trying to keep, keep everybody's motors running. Yeah. Like, keep everyone alive, keep the system in place. I don't think we're going to find out that he's a sociopath. I mean, perhaps.

But I think it's going to be something more like either I grew up in this world or they had something on me. I will say, of all of the many characters that we spend time with or get slight POV moments with, Jason, I think, is the least skis.

sketched out. I understand his motivations and his brute force, but in terms of, like, even Perry has some moments of, certainly not grace, but regret. Regrets, you know, and you see the complicated emotions swirling inside of him. Jason so far is more of a blunt instrument, and that may change his things move forward. I guess the question remains, I mean, I guess that, that makes that moment of Grasso not sleeping with Lizzie, like, I guess thoughtful, you know, or seen a different light, because now you know that there's something about him,

his interest in Tom's past in the priesthood, there's something about, like, his kind of sweetness is, it doesn't seem like an act. It seems like maybe that's the person he wants to be, and he knows he's not. He is attempting to connect himself to Tom's story in the sense that he also feels like he's a fault, an angel, right?

That, like, he has, that's the vibe I get cumulatively from his behavior with Tom and in the light of what happens in this episode. Yes. And he's trying to sketch out a narrative where both he and Tom tried to stay to something pure, but then, like, had to get down in the muck. It seems like he's a bit further down in the muck. Right. Than Tom is.

But I think that's what he, that feels like his yearning. Head fake with McGinty then from the last episode, or do you feel like she could still be? I think she, I think, yeah, I don't think it's a head fake. I feel like we weren't wrong to underline the moment when Grasso says, some lady interviewed me. Some lady interviewed me. And then after Tom leaves and says, I think I have a problem on the task force. And she's like, no, you don't.

Then she calls, presumably this guy who comes in that she then mocks for not wearing a sufficiently summer casual outfit. Glad you mentioned that. One of the best moments in the episode, there's still room for lulls here at Task HQ. Thank God. Plimpton's got him, got him, like, firing out. Like, she, the, I'm an emotional eater. The line was great. Her going into that Starbucks bagel, like that sad kind of, like,

her morning, yeah. But I presume now that the phone call that she made was to somebody in her office to interrogate the, the, to revet the people on the task force. And that now something with Grasso is pinged. That doesn't stop her from then spending the day, essentially. with him after picking him up. Yes. You know?

And she never seems within the car, she doesn't seem to indicate any knowledge of Grasso's duplicity. I mean, like, just on a fundamental level, what you're saying, this is also what I mean about why I'm so engaged by it. It's the humanity. Like,

this is a show with a body count, but that respects the severity and finality of death. Like, people are double-crossing each other, but for the most part, nobody wants a trail of corpses. Yes. And it allows the deaths when they occur to mean something.

And all these things are connected to each other. And a really, going back to my point about, like, this is an old story. This is about a guy avenging his brother's death. And the brother and this girl, Aaron, had like a love that was. So pure. But it was, you know, it was doomed. It was a doomed love affair. Like Jason is psychotic and is going to get violent.

And that's, you know, like. This is the ripple out from those original sins in some way. How much of this would you do for me? I was going to ask you a question. Yeah. Later in the episode, earlier in the episode, rather, I believe, when Perry visits Mave. Yeah. He's happy to see her.

Do you have a picture of me on your fridge? Thank you. I want to talk about this. Photographs are doing a lot of heavy lifting on the show. I'm not mad at it. I'm not mad at it. It's really hard to write stuff that connects dots or to give people. something to do when they're feeling

sticking right out there on the fridge. Just tucking out. It's like, Robbie and Cliff, best boys for Evs. Robbie Robin with Cliff. I have like, there's one picture of me currently up in my house. Oh. In the entire house. It's a Polaroid of me in the Criterion closet.

Oh, that's cool. Yeah. How often do you put it back up after Phoebe takes it down? She doesn't take it down. She just has a different aesthetic. The one that doesn't involve your face? Yeah, I guess I guess I've just never really thought about putting pictures of myself up. Here's the biggest follow-up. More pictures of you to be candid.

That's what I was you say. How many pictures of me are up? I feel like Phoebe wouldn't mind if there's a picture of me up. Yeah, I think if I had me and the boys, but it would be like, I don't know if I'd put it on the fridge. Right. Inevitably, there would be like, you know, a takeout menu from the fuss, the fuck cafe or something blocking my face. Yeah. Probably.

The way you get away with, it's all right. I like that restaurant. I think the way you get away with is just a pro tip, putting up pictures of yourself in your home, is you have children, and then you frame the ones that you're also in. Gotcha. And then everyone's like,

look at this picture of these kids, but you're in the background, like, you know, lampin. Yeah. Crossanova style. I'll make sure I have kids so I can do that. You can have a picture of my kids. Nothing weird about that. I've got some cute ones.

They're very photogenic. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last-minute beach day, a spontaneous hike, or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for, that's when Prime's same-day delivery as you're back. Getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same-day delivery, it's on Prime.

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signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. We covered Shelley and Robbie's scene. I get the plan. So talk me through this. Freddie is going to essentially set Robbie up and take double the sort of commission on that.

100% of it, I believe. Of the fentanyl? Sure. Okay. Right? I'm sure it'll get explained a little bit more clearly. I mean, I grasp what's happening

even if I don't understand the details. When Jason calls pair and he's like, he had me over a barrel, he needed double. I was just a double of the money that you get for selling the fentanyl, I guess. Or double the percentage they'd already agree to.

Did they agree to anything? I thought they were going, remember in the whole, yeah, that's right, because he's like, I either piss on you or you agree to my price

and those guys were like, making a fair point. One point, I would like to make that it is, it is uncanny that both task and dope thief built to a collision between more factions than each faction realizes in a quarry. Like, that, that is bizarre. Yeah. I would also say that the differences in the execution of those scenes also speaks to the

essential difference between the shows, why one we were taking quite seriously and one we thought had some good performances. Sure. Because did you, I don't think you watched enough to see the, I watched a couple of quarries, yeah. No, not to show Quarry. I mean, dope thief. Oh, sorry, yeah, my bad. The dope thief scene in a quarry

where a character who drives them to the quarry decides, takes out like a high-powered military-grade rifle and just starts screaming and, like, shooting people. It's a different attitude towards the vagaries of life and death. I think also the function of the settings that we revisit often. I found, you know, Aaron's death, for instance, in this episode. Margarita LeVevavava's character.

On one hand, I would say that her character was not served particularly well this season. And I think a lot of her as a performer. No, I mean, on this show. I mean, I'm just like, she kind of is like, I am in a flashback. I am in a kitchen. I'm in a couple of scenes. But like ultimately, like, what Aaron, Aaron functions like a photograph on the wall to, like, move the story. It's exactly right.

And it is, it is the benefit of HBO and of talent. team that you get the A-plus version of a C-plus role. You and I both think she's a great, great actor. And so she brought a lot to it, which is kind of what you need to elevate it when there's not a lot of real estate for screen time. Yes. But there was a moment when,

and that whole scene was shot beautifully, and Jeremiah Zagar was back behind the camera for this episode. And I thought that whole scene with the kids listening to the indie rock band Honey. Oh, I was really lovely. Yeah, with smoke. Like that was just beautiful. beautifully shot and realized and disturbing and creepy and all that and effective in the sense that there was a moment when I feel like there should be a term for this that we should come up with. It's like what I was saying before about your hearts in your throat and you're like, a character could die here. Like suddenly everything is in play. Yeah. The best shows bring you to that point where you're questioning your own experience and watching things for many, many years. And so there was a moment when he was chasing her where I was like, she could come up with a rock and win. But of course she doesn't. But that feeling.

engages you in a different way. Yeah, and I think this is just a very, very, very soundly constructed show in terms of its theme, in terms of its themes. And this episode specifically, Tom does this speech about

a bird, a vagrant bird that gets kind of lost but can always get back home. Obviously, Robbie leads all of these factions to a childhood escape. Aaron, when she's on the, right when her life

is basically falling apart, notices this kind of like a really nuanced little phenomenon that's essentially it's vape smoke, but it looks like clouds are coming down into this, like, to this water bed area. Water bed, what the fuck am I talking about? Like, is it a lake or is that the quarry? I thought it was the quarry.

In any case. Not the show, Corey, which is very good. Or the show, Dope Deep. No. My point is that obviously Aaron is like having a reverie about like when she used to come here with Billy. Sure. And maybe even to her, childhood when she used to be so carefree that she would vape at the quarry, you know, or whatever the kids did back in the 90s, you know?

And listen to Indy Rock. And that's where she does. And she's swimming to get to this time in her life that she remembers. And Perry stops her, obviously. But I thought, like, you see these, like, recurrences. It's not just doubling where it's like, oh, Tom and Robbie are going through similar experiences. It's like, this is about people trying to get back to a place that maybe doesn't exist anymore.

And people trapped in the same fishbowl they've always been in and not understanding whether water is so cloudy and murky now. It was what we were talking about the other week about the spaces they live in. Like even Ray and Shelley's house in a vacuum looks like a perfectly nice old house, you know, with a nice backyard. But what has it become? What have these towns become? What have we filled them with?

What has become of all of us? That was a nice recall to that. I thought that the Perry and May have seen was great. We've talked about Perry referring to Robbie as Crazy Robbie. You might think, I might have thought in a different world that like the Sam plot line was a little anti-climactic. Just like, oh, and then she takes him. There might be more pages to turn. There might be more pages to turn.

But I thought also it's like, yeah, that's when that's when Maeve decides enough's enough is when fucking Perry shows up. Yeah. And this kid is 10 feet away. And I think that you could map this out, if you took the Mave story, separated it out, I think it passes the plausibility test, which we don't put on shows that are excellent. Yes. That's anti-art, honestly. But if you did want to watch it that way, I think what she did with Sam initially, you know, trying to bring him back and then taking him back for reasons and then finally saying enough's enough. That makes sense.

Right. We should shout out Jamie McShane, who's the actor who plays Perry. Great job. just that someone who you know I go to his Wikipedia page and I'm like I have definitely seen this man in a number of television shows and movies

he was in Sons of Anarchy, bloodline, Avengers he works he's a working actor Avengers like the Marvel movie Yeah who was he in that? He was in I have no idea he was in Thor and the Avengers

Oh I don't think he was Thor but I'll check okay He it reminds me of the best of UK television where there's just a stable of incredible actors given opportunities to show what they've always been able to do

so you have that small sense of familiarity but then you get surprised what's the name of Perry's on again off again girlfriend he's agent Jackson okay you remember him from Thor no I really I got to say I seriously do not what's the name of I don't remember I know you're asking

she's good also good and that's another example of like just somebody doing a very good job a very small role and I'm sorry I don't know your name. What else was there from this episode that I wanted to discuss? I want to talk about the whole, the architecture and the emotion of the Tom and Robbie stuff. Yeah.

I loved Ruffalo playing old and broken down. I loved the Pepsi can on the back of the toilet and then that coming back around with Robbie being like nobody pisses like that. Yeah. It's pretty funny. I thought the, uh, it earned it, right?

Like, it was worth it. That kind of collision with everyone calling and wondering. And then that feeling of, there's just a kind of, there's a feeling of freedom, I think, when you feel a show, say, fuck it, we're here.

We're at the point where this needs to happen. That is also something that I would reference Breaking Bad at being expert at. Like, Breaking Bad was never afraid of turning the page when you've gotten to the end of the sentence. Yes. And I thought that was really compelling. I thought we got some more backstory about Tom and his wife in an interesting way.

We got a shout out to another local hospital, Bryn-Mar Hospital. You ever spend time there? It's a nice one. I thought there's a, I think when you watch cops and robber shows, you're assuming that what you're going to see is Popeye Doyle or Vincent Hanna or the guy who chases guys. And Tom's not that. Now whether Tom got put on this task force by California. Kathleen to lose or whether nobody really cared about this case or what are we doing with Tom in the first place.

There was no world where Tom was like, I'm actually incredible at evasive driving. And I'm going to like, you know, there's nothing he's going to do. He's got a gun to his back. And he wants to call his kids. Yeah. And that was like a really, really, really beautiful moment where he's just like, he's not yelling. There's no ornate dialogue. There's no, he's not cursing him out.

He's just like, man, let me call my kids. But this is also why the specificity matters because it may not resonate to anyone who didn't grow up in the area. But when Robbie opens his license, Tom's license, and he says Tom Brandis from Springfield, just like a guy. Yeah. Lives near a mall. Yeah. Just normal. Like birds.

Loves birds. Loves birds. Did you think that Perry's strategy of popping his collar was an effective way of hiding the scarring and clawing about his face? Well, I think what it does is it, first of all, this is such a unique. and beautiful place to stage what will be the climax of the series. Well, I would assume. My sense is that we're going to have fireworks

and then we're going to have a long emotional denouement in the finale. I think there are a lot of fireworks still to come too. Because everybody who's kind of arriving at the river, gathering at the river, if you will, there's all these different factions within factions, right? There's the dark hearts divided because unbeknownst to Jason.

So far unbeknownst, yeah. Perry has killed Jason's wife or girlfriend. I don't know the state of their. They have a family together. Common law wife. Yes, right. Partners. Just two crazy kids.

And unbeknownst to some of the people in the task force, the task force is divided because Grasso is actually working on behalf of the Dark Hearts. And then you've got Robbie who, I imagine, wanted this to take place where it's taking place for reasons beyond the Odyssey and wants it to be because like he knows the terrain maybe has hid something somewhere

whatever it is so I love this image of these people kind of moving down the river banks and converging on Robbie but I think that there's a lot of story left because not only are you going to get whatever happens in the woods here

you're going to have to have an accounting of everybody's divided allegiances and who's going to come out of the woods and what state will they be in? Yeah. How do they feel about Lyme disease? Because that is a real issue there. Robbie felt by Poison Oak.

Just scratching the whole finale. I love that part in the car when he says... Oh, and also like Freddy's out there. Freed's rolling. Yeah. I don't know that he's going to the poker nose, but I mean, he's got a vested interest. He had a bad experience in Lancaster.

Yeah. I've kidnapped the world's most depressing human. So funny. Great line. I fucking like you, but I don't like you enough to let you fuck up my plan. Also, never get serious satellite radio, I guess. Yeah, that was a really good little Chekhov's radio. Outlaw country shout out there.

Where it's like, I was like, damn, serious. Thrown down five bucks to get in the show. And then it winds up being like, it's a satellite. So you can ping them, you know? Did you like the parallel? You spoke so well about what Aaron was seeing, through the haze and it's mirrored by

where Tom ends up on the other side of his woods walk when Robbie says walk about a mile you'll see it it's beautiful and what he sees

is normal America like families and just the world that both of them have left a long time ago I've found it interesting that this show is driving towards the woods

like most of the action of the last two episodes but specifically this one is happening in a kind of pastoral setting. I don't know what it means necessarily, but it's not a Philly show anymore. You know, it's kind of this weird, like,

these animals kind of almost from, like this city coming into the woods to, like, be wild. Maybe that just goes back to, it's not the original sin, but it's the original smarts of Brad Inglesby and his writing that he's done for HBO. It's, you could say that Marevista, and task are Philly shows, but they're not.

They're Delaware County shows. They're Pennsylvania shows. That is a much different thing than an urban setting. And I think you can tell a certain kind of phoniness. Sally Richards and Whitfield was very funny when we asked her, like, what were some of the things that she thought were hallmarks of? And she was like, I'd never need to see the woods again. Like, I've seen so many different woods to set our little scenes.

And I think we could, and I'm sure we yearn for programming that is super Philly coded because I think, again, I feel bad doing strays like this, but like dope thief was supposedly set in Philadelphia, but was deeply on Philadelphia. It was Philadelphia in the way that a lot of other mass entertainment has been where it's just like Brooklyn South a little bit. Yeah. I'm not just talking the accents. I'm just talking about like specific things about that make it a unique place. And so the fact that this show is dug into such an unexpected patch of ground makes it. I think think makes it resonant to people who who aren't from there. Is it worth making predictions?

Is it worth saying like, oh, what do you think happens out there? I, you know, I hesitate to mention this, but in the teaser that had the Guns and Rosa song, you can, you can see some things about this shootout. Look at you. I know. I wish I didn't. Did you go back? I watched it 300 times.

So, like, I just remember. the beauty of my life is I remember nothing. I don't even remember when we started this podcast. It's all gone yesterday. It's possible. Anything else? In a way, I'm always doing this podcast, don't you think? Sure.

It's not a bad way. Anything else about this? No, this was great. Great episode. Very excited for two more. Yeah. It's fun. Okay.

Fun is one way to describe it. It's fun to have a show that is... It's mostly trenchant. Yeah, but it's fun to have a show that has this much depth and engagement. Yeah. And I look forward to more of it. I don't know. What do you want me to say?

You got the job? Did I get the job? But also, I feel like this isn't the whole podcast, right? You're going to do something else? I don't think so. You aren't going to do anything else? Well, I mean, it's like, you know, I don't know. Just plug and play?

I want to have this be like the chunk. And then if something else, what am I going to do? Just be like, you know, I really, the House of Guinness really turned a quarter there on episode four. Comment on Mike Johnson's like 4D gamesmanship to keep the government, to reopen the government. that's going to happen this weekend or something? Yeah.

Thanks for joining me. Maybe there are more to this podcast, I don't know. It's exciting to think about. I'll be back on Thursday. Maybe you will too. Possible.