The Watch - The 25 Best Movies of the Century So Far and Lorde’s 'Melodrama' (Ep. 160)

Episode Date: June 19, 2017

The Ringer’s Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald discuss Andy’s weekend exploits and Lorde’s new album, 'Melodrama' (1:00). Then Chris and Andy discuss the recent New York Times list of the 25 best movies of the century while providing their own, very different best-movies-of-the-century list (24:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the watch is brought to you by Carvana. Do you dread spending Saturday haggling with a car salesperson? I know I do. It's just too much, man. Life's too short. With Carvana, you skip the dealership and buy your next car online. Choose as soon as next day delivery or pick up from the world's first coin-operated car vending machine. Stop it.

And enjoy the peace of mind of a seven-day return policy, plus save some serious money compared to dealerships. Carvana is the new. way to buy a car, check out Carvana.com, C-A-R-V-A-N-A-com slash watch to learn more. I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at The Ringer.com and joining me in the studio listening to the Louvre on repeat.

It's Andy Green World. I want to welcome all of our listeners to the internet's Premier 76ers podcast. It's basketball, basketball, and more basketball. basketball here. No, but I wish it was. Chris, we're in great mood today. Trust the watch us? We're just happy. And I, first of all, I apologize, the rights to Ricky Sanchez by our pod friend, Spike, Eskin, and Michael Levin. It's clearly the premier spot for Sixers podcasting. Yeah, we're just JV squad for that. We're JV squad, but we're in great mood today for basketball and other reasons. We've got some interesting things to talk about.

Yeah, we've got, we're going to talk a little bit about this Lord record that we both like a lot. And then the bulk of the show, I know that I promised a lot of TV talk last week. Typical. But life finds a way. Or gets in the way. Gets in the way. So we're going to punt Fargo, Preacher. We're going to talk claws on Thursday.

That'll go to Thursday. Twin Peaks. And I think we'll also probably have Andrew Graderdozer join us on Thursday to talk about good, bad movies week. We should check out on the ringer.com this week. It's very, very entertaining. We're going to talk movies a little bit too today. Yeah, we're kind of doing the flip side of that to start the week with.

We had talked about this a week or two ago, but the Times had, New York Times had their 25 best movies of the Millennium, Manola Dargis and Tony Scott picked theirs. And, you know, Andy and I like to think of ourselves as we're really happy for Tony and Manola. But we're really Tony and Manola 2.0. Yeah, exactly. Who's who? Well, I think it's clear. After we look at these lists, it's clear. Before we get started with the, you know, the meat of the podcast, I want to just quickly talk about all the meat of the podcast.

Sorry. You've already got your voice work going. We've got some really exciting Game of Thrones stuff coming for you. guys. So obviously, we will not be doing after the Thrones on HBO. What's weird is that Tony Scott and Manola Dargis are doing it. Yeah. It was really an outside-the-box. Except they're only talking about in the mood for love. No, we are going to be doing another Game of Thrones after show.

It's going to be called Talk the Thrones. You'll be able to see it on Twitter almost as soon as the episodes of Game of Thrones end every Sunday night. We've gone full Sosh. We're going to be live on Twitter after the show. I actually, I'm disappointed because I had a deal on the table to take a solo game of Thrones show to Peach. Wow. But the money fell through at the last second. But we're not alone, Andy, because the most important thing about this is that we're going to be joined by Jason Concepcion and Mallory Rubin from the Binge Mode podcast.

Our friends, the maister, Mother of Dragons. Yeah, they were our co-pilots on After the Thrones last year. They'll be joining us on Talk of Thrones this year. We're so excited to be doing this. The fearsome for some is back. A couple other notes about the show. People have been asking us this. From what I understand, and I believe this has been confirmed to be true,

while we want you to watch the show live with us after the East Coast feed on Twitter, there will be a way to watch the show on Twitter later on. It will be pretty easy. I'm fairly certain that the episodes will just be pinned at the top of the ringer's Twitter page. They'll be pinned at the top of our Twitter pages. It's very easy to just click and watch. we hope to be able to provide podcast audio of the show but we haven't nailed that down yet.

Regardless, we will be podcasting. We might cover. The watch will still be going on Mondays, so we're really excited about that. Then, and this is really exciting. We haven't done one of these in a really long time, but we are going to be doing a live show. Andy, myself, Jason, and Mallory,

talk the Thrones live at the Largo in Los Angeles on July 11th. Sort of previewing the season. Yeah, and we'll have some special guests, some special games. Very excited about the guests already. You can find information. We'll tweet out the information. There's a there's a seat geek link to go buy tickets. What, seat geek? I've heard of them. Yeah. So we're really excited. We'll have more info on that as details come along, but talk to Thrones live on Twitter right after episodes of Game of Thrones.

Talk the Thrones live, live at Largo in Los Angeles on July 11th. Yeah. So we're really excited. It's throne season. It surely is. We're back. Winter has just dropped out. out of nowhere. Yeah, who knew? Okay. You want to talk about Lord? What do you want to talk about? I had one thing that I wanted to run by you.

Sure. So I was out of the office on Thursday. So thank you to you and the ringer crew for not only doing great podcasts, but shining some light and love on our good friend Beth will wear on his night motion account. Shout out to Beth. I did not know that. I heard that. Beth texted me.

It was like, did you talk about my Instagram accounts? That was amazing. Yeah. So our buddy Beth runs this account called Night Loation. Yes. Which before you put me in prison. for saying those two words together. It's just an Instagram account of women putting on

moisturizing cream before they go to bed in movies. In television shows. And in TV shows, which is like a huge motif. And if I can quote Beth, because I hit her up and I was like, Beth, give me the inside scoop here. Who's the Mount Rushmore of Night Loation? This is such a really a thing. Miranda from Sex and the City.

Yeah. Raina from Nashville and Skyler White. Wow. Yeah. I mean, it's funny, if you probably could go into those writer's rooms, It's basically like the, I just got to move these boxes, but sure, I'll talk to you of law and order. Yeah. Like, you need business to make the scene work, but women love to moisturize at night.

But anyway, I was off to an island off the coast of Maine for a wedding of a dear friend. Some people who were tracking my movements closely via Instagram thought maybe I was hanging with the Potsave America guys at John Favre's wedding. Oh, is that a suggestion? It was. I was not, though we love those guys, and we wish them nothing but the best. and I did fly out with some people who were attending that wedding, and it determined that his wedding might be superior because his was closer. I did not involve a lobster boat.

I was so far away, you guys. It was so far. But I'm back. That's not what I want to talk to you about. What I want to talk to you about, Chris, is I'm spitballing here. At our age, you know, 28, 29, we don't get to go to as many weddings as we used to during the sweet spot when a lot of people were getting married. That's why I'm dropping you for a bunch of younger friends. I think that's highly overdue.

Weddings become more crucial for us because, especially as those of us, I'll use eye statements who may have two children, we don't have that many opportunities to go dance. So the dancing at a wedding is crucial, right? And what I've learned is there is a politics to it, especially in the age of the oxcord. Like what gets played and what doesn't get played. And so this wedding had a band, a very nice, a tight band that played a lot of like 50s and 60s songs. So the older, and I mean older than me, members of the wedding, were very happy. A lot of twisting, a lot of shouting, a lot of locomotioning, a lot of yak-a-y-y-y-ac.

Okay. Some standby me soundtrack. And then while that was happening, everyone was having a good time. But I would say the 40 and below crowd was agitating. They wanted something a little more. From the band or they wanted to just plug the iPod in? Listen, I was promised that we would be getting some playlists after that. So we were fine with the band and then the playlist arrived.

And we all had a good time. There was a little friction. There was, I'm not going to name names, but at one point someone did grab the ox cord and try to put on DJ Cowlids. I'm the one. Did you do that? At my phone died. At someone else's wedding? It was 2.30 in the morning.

But look, here's what I wanted to ask you. Yeah. Is it time for a new wedding song, Pantheon? What I mean is, traditionally, there are certain songs that get played at every wedding, whether they are the slow dance numbers or sometimes people like to electric slide or what have you. For a while, people were playing Surrender by Cheap Trick, you know, or don't stop believing. There were certain crowd pleasers. But is it time for Camerons? I really mean it to make its way into the...

No, because our friend Zach and Amanda's wedding last year is a Hall of Famer in the wedding Valhalla because basically they let the olds have two songs. Skinny Freeman played... And then they played Bayneau by Shorty Lowe, like within 10 minutes of the dancing started, and it only went uphill or from there. Yeah. That's extreme. What I'm saying is I remember when we were at Chuck's wedding,

like six, seven years ago, and the DJ played Phoenix's Listomania. And I was like, this is one of the 20 greatest songs ever written. The point being, what are the songs that could be the new wedding pantheon that kind of everyone will be excited about? Because, for example, at this wedding, we found love. That's good. Enormous excitement from everyone.

Decepticon by Latigra. Enormous excitement from everyone. There are certain songs that make people universally happy. And then there are songs like MGMT's Electric Field that when someone put that on, it was as if someone had regurgitated the contents of the oyster bar that had started the night. House of Jealous Lovers is a good one. Well, now we're just talking Lizzie Goodman rock. No, but like you're talking about songs that are recent enough so that you still are like,

I feel like that that's situated and right the sweet spot where you're like, I remember being younger, but I'm not so old that this doesn't sound good still. Yes. And it also has, there is a quality that songs like Decepticon and House of Jealous Lovers have to fill the floor. Like they are real like sirens to get to the dance floor. One that surprised me that really brought people back, surging back Alejandro by Lady Gaga. What about what we do by Freeway? Well, see, I would have surged out of my chest, like the alien in John Hurt in the first film.

But I'm talking about, I'm trying to please the crowd. Freeze beard sticking out. Listen, you're not helping. You're like, should we try to do this is what I'm saying? Maybe we could take some suggestions on Twitter. Should we make a Spotify playlist that is just certified? It could be anyone's wedding. But here are the 40 songs.

Right. Bizarre Love Triangle maybe. You know, like, so reaching back. a little bit, but also looking forward, because there are songs, many of them by Freeway and Cameron, that I wanted so desperately I could taste them. Yeah. Like the halibut crudo I had enjoyed as a past apt. Was the halibut crudo something that you just sort of like dipped your hand into the,

to the wintery North Atlantic as you? Let me tell you who I was at this wedding. Not only was I the one who at some point during the dance floor turned to a college roommate's wife and said, you need to get up. I need this. About the dancing. But I was also the person who definitely just possibly freaked out, like, trigger warning one of the cater waiters when I saw that she had the bacon wrap scallops coming around again. I went for it, is what I'm saying.

But the thing is, is that, like, did you have any, like, did you feel like the place that you were, was the place where the wedding was? Was it, like, kind of like Diane Lane, Perfect Storm type folks, like being like, balby, you and me, a fresh guy? There was a con in the cob. There was definitely someone talking about the con and the cop. I will say this, the father of the bride, who was a wonderful host, was a beautiful event. You and me, Bobby. In his speech held up the wooden Puritans cradle that his daughter had spent her first night on the island in. And I was like, that is both creepy, kind of sweet, but also dangerous to a baby because this was filled with like weevils from the Mayflower.

You know what I mean? Like, that's the kind of like old New England where this was. It's a different world out there, man. Two hours off the coast? Isn't that Portugal? It was... So to get there, I flew to Boston, drove four hours to Rockland, Maine,

and then jumped on a ferry that was... No, it was not two hours. Apparently it was in inclement weather, which God knows what that would have looked like compared to Stephen King's The Mist that was happening when I was there. It took about an hour. Let me ask you a question.

Did they play Greenlight? No. That's going to be a wedding jam. Yeah, that's a great segue. For the next 15 years. Suck about Lord. A lot of talk on the ringer slack this weekend. Yeah.

As Lord, as melodrama kind of permeated everybody's play, like, listening this weekend about what the album of the year was. I always have a little bit of an allergy to talking about, even when I was writing about music a lot, I always just had a really hard, it was a mental hurdle for me to get over the idea of, like, are we talking about the album of the year in some imaginary, like, what boxes it checks in a critical,

kind of canon or are we talking about the thing I love the most? And that was actually always like a little bit of a, like not, that was not good for me. Like I should have been better at writing about Beck, is what I mean. But I wasn't. And so people were talking about damn, people were talking about melodrama as these albums the year. They better be talking about walks of hatchie out of the storm. Well, that still is not coming out for a long time.

I'm just going to keep talking about it. I keep telling you that that's rude. People need to be able to hear this album first. excited. You did. You got him. You got him. Fine, go on. So what for you is the album of the year right now? The Wax Latchie album is up there.

Kendrick is up there. And then I like a lot of little tiny things that aren't going to, like Hoops. People aren't going to say Hoops is the best album of the year. Is an little indie band named Hoops. They're great Hazel English. Really good. But no, to your point, the one that feels like maybe this should be it and could be it is the Lord record because I have not had

high approval rating well it's first of all it's true across demographics but which is crucial to this conversation but two I have not spent enough time with it because as I mentioned I was I was living the not at all making a fresh start do you understand that we were in a house where like this clabbard house where we had been provided like homemade muffins and granola bars and you know we did we it was not to be found in the house. This house had two kitchens because who knew how, who knows how buildings were built.

There was no sugar and there was no salt because that's how the Puritans liked it. You don't flavor your food. You eat it. Anyway, I did not have service either for my cellul phone. Clappard? That's how I thought it was clapboard. That's a clapboard house.

Yeah, you haven't spent enough time out on the high seas. No, I just don't. Dude, I saw a lobster boat captain climb an algae-slicked ladder carrying a baby in one arm on Father's Day. Like, people, yo. The boat I was on took us to a...

What was the backstory of that? There was a four-month-old on the boat we took home back to the mainland, and the captain, handsome, handsome, man, weather-beaten, Captain John, couldn't park the boat anywhere except this, like, floating dingy where there was an algae-slicked wooden ladder to climb to civilization. So what do you do with the... So he gets up there, he's holding the baby, and then the mom gets up after? The dad went up first.

The captain held the baby with one arm, just fucking he-maned it, and climbed up the ladder. and then someone had to stay down and like naval tie a rope to our luggage and hoist it up and you know what I do in those moments What did you just like get the baby bag? He's like here's your kid. I just took.

That's what he did. I did you. I just start checking Instagram. Like my least favorite scenarios in life are the ones where you have to pretend to be like macho in a way that's acceptable. Like these guys are like, yeah, well you got to tie the knot and lift the...

I'm like, we all know I can't help you. Like when you're ready to have a clap on the back A cleverer on the back. And a clever remark about what we all went through. You ring me. I'm right here. It's like when I go to the auto mechanic and he's like, what do you think's wrong with it? I'm like, I will pay you money just so you don't ask me that question again.

I will pay you double not to make me feel bad. Fix the machine that I don't understand. Do you know? I'm being honest. Anyway, I didn't have time to listen to the Lord album that much. It was too busy paying for more cycle.

analysis but one of the most exciting things about it is how rich it already sounds. This could reward multiple listens and multiple contexts. I was unaware that the primary influences on this record were like Don Henley and Tom Petty. Yes. And that Paul Simon's Graceland were like things that she was listening to when she wrote this record. The Louvre is my favorite song in a long time. I really love this record. I would say that my sort of albums of the year right now are still Father John Misty,

pure comedy and the self-titled future album. Did you say get out of here? My opinions are valid. On this podcast or not. Let's just to contextualize a little bit. The Lord Phenomenon coming from that first record,

which was quite a few years ago already. Yeah, a long time ago. Four years ago. Because she's been reviewing onion rings on Instagram this whole time. Do what you love, you never work a day in your life. That's what Captain John told me when he had a baby that wasn't his under his arm.

That dude made America great again in one boat ride. Do you know what he said when we got on the boat? He was like, you won't want to sit there unless you want to get wet. It'll take about, but he didn't mean like training day. He didn't mean like angel dust. You like to get wet, Jake. He's like you sit on the right side of the boat. And then he said, it'll take about 45 minutes to get across.

That's a super inappropriate thing to say to people when they get in your car. I always thought it was pretty funny, but it just turns out that doesn't happen. Do you like to get wet? Yeah. It's never appropriate, ever in any context. He said it'd take about 45 minutes to get back to Rockland. He said, and when we're there, I don't know. We'll see what we can do.

Because the seas were so stormy that you couldn't park. But it was crowded. Anyway, the Lord phenomenon is really kind of incredible in retrospect. Well, it was happening too. I mean, 16-year-old young woman from far away, Farther way than I was this weekend. Are you saying that because you don't know whether it's Australia or New Zealand? That's New Zealand.

I said it because it took me a second to remember. I do that all the time where I'm just like, and this is a great thing that's happening in the future. I just have no idea what I'm talking about. A little bit like the president there. It's just a terrific young woman. And that album, which she made just with some other people that she was collaborating with at the time, who she definitely just ditched. but that album is timeless and incredible.

And like you said, cut across so many different fan bases. Yeah. And so the pressure on her is really unreal to come back with it because it's not just that it was popular, but she got both. She had the mainstream popularity, but also the intense young person fanaticism, obsessing over everything she did, everything she wore. So the fact that she came back, and still is what she's 20 now. she's already in an age

what's difficult to deal with these kind of pressures. She made a stellar record. She made a stellar record almost entirely with friend of the pod, Jack Antonoff,

whose Bleacher's album came out a few weeks ago. This is a really... A big moment for Jack. Working on the killer's record? Killer song just came out. But I think this is a very special collaboration

because the best ones bring out the best in both of them. And you could listen to this and it is unmistakably a Lord album. You know, I think that when Jack worked with Taylor Swift,

like an out of the woods. It sounded like Taylor Swift singing a fun song. Or a bleacher song, Jack Antonoff, composition, a lot of things he likes to do. He's present on this record and his taste and influences, but it's such a smooth thing. So Louv is your favorite song. Yeah. I think it's just worth noting also why she's kind of special in this moment. I feel like this is a weird thing to say about a 20-year-old young woman, but I just think

that as an artist, she's a very sexy artist. here's what I mean. Okay. Nothing to do with even her physical being. What I mean is all of her songs come from a place of, like, sensuality and physicality and point of view. And particularly in a moment when the new Katie Perry record comes out. And I am a, I'm a Katiehead from way back. You're a Katie Cat?

This record, I think, mostly sucks, this new Katie Perry record. Yeah. And it sucks because it's completely bloodless. Like, she's going to do political pop, and then we just have that sort of weak-ass chain-to-the-rhythm song. and then because that tank, then she has a song where she tells Migos they can eat her body like Kobe beef. Like, that sounds like what Captain John should have said to us.

You guys liked to eat beef? No, but you know what I mean? Like, it is, it sets her apart from a lot of these other young pop stars that she is, you know, shockingly, in competition with or at least in the conversation with. Yeah. Okay, so Lord's good.

This guy who drives a lobster boat off the coast of Maine is the greatest American. Shouts to the captain of the equinox, man. We're going to take a quick break here from our sponsors. Thanks for sticking with us through this. Do you know what he said after he handed the baby back? Happy Father's Day. There's a quick word from our sponsors.

And then we're going to break down the best 25 movies of the last 17 years. Today's episode of The Watch is brought to you by Hotel Tonight. If you're like me and you're not so great at planning ahead, I've got good news for you. There's this awesome app called Hotel Tonight that helps you find amazing hotel deals at the last minute. It sounds counterintuitive, but unlike flights, hotel rates usually get cheaper at the last minute. And Hotel Tonight helps hotels sell their unsold rooms, allowing them to pass those deals along to you. These aren't last resort places. They're actually cool, top-rated hotels that you want to stay in.

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Go to SimplySafe.com slash ringer and get a special 10% discount when you order today. That's simplysafe.com slash ringer for 10% off your order. Simplysafe.com slash ringer. Okay, Andy and I are back. And now we're going to talk about our 25 best movies of the millennium. This is inspired obviously by A.O. Scott and Manolo Dargis's list that was in the New York Times about two weeks ago. Their number one movie was There Will Be Blood, I believe. It was a controversial list.

My mother called me. She was very upset about the lack of mainstream populist entertainment. This was, interestingly enough, a complete collaboration. They did not list their 25 individual best. This is what they agreed on, which I can't even imagine how hard that was. And they kind of embraced the debate by going back and forth within each movie. They kind of talked about what was great about it and why they put it where it was. So I think the easiest way to do this, Andy and I can post our own separate lists to Twitter so that you guys can see our ranking.

And then the ringer account will post them to. Before we get into the movies that we both had on our list. Before you even do that, I have a question. Doing this exercise as someone who, goes to the movies, which is why I'm differentiating you from me. I used to go to the movies. Did you feel any large takeaways

about this century so far cinematically? No, only about my taste. Although I do think that there's a lot, like we could do a whole separate podcast about the visual language of these movies and the way movies look now and who inspired that.

The degree to which the Terence Malick style of framing and directing. Not necessarily his actual filmmaking, which is apparently very improvisatory and you know,

searching for the image and searching for the cut in the editing room. But the way in which you know, say there will be blood, no, maybe not there will be blood, but the way like no country has influenced the way a lot, like Sicario and a lot of these movies, there is like

definitely a look to these movies. Roger Deacons. Yeah. My takeaway was largely that the further away you get from eras of film, the common thread is you can pull together a list of masterpieces. Yeah. You know, and I was, as I was making this, I was thinking, oh, well, you know, maybe this is very different than making a list from the 70s because if in my version of the 70s, a decade I was not seeing movies, these master filmmakers were at their heights and they were having a conversation with each other. and it was almost a casual outpouring of greatness. And then I made my own list, and I realized, well, if you squint, it's kind of, you can see the same thing. A lot of the dross falls away.

And if you're only seeing the greatest, first of all, there's been an amazing amount of movies, amazing amount of movies, but also an amazing amount of amazing movies. But you can see those patterns here, too, if you choose to see them, especially as you get further away. It is a nice balm to the naysayers that cinema is dead. Yeah, and, you know, Manoa and Tony's list is a diverse list that has animated films that has, you know, great directors like Guillermo Toto Turo weighing in on things like Spirited Away. It has some surprises like the very, very high ranking of a million dollar baby, which is a movie I almost walked out of. Yeah, that was shocking. And it has, admittedly, a lot more foreign films than I have on my list.

And there's also just a lot of, like, very challenging, interesting movies like the, death of Mr. Lazaruscu, which I saw and thought was brilliant. But I would say that ultimately the films that stick with me are they tend to be genre or they tend to be variations on genre movies and they tend to be movies that kind of inevitably have a certain rewatchability. Now that doesn't mean they're not dark. That doesn't mean they're not challenging. But it does have, I think that the movies that you go back to are the ones that are

inevitably going to rise in your estimation because the one. I thought blue as the warmest color was extraordinary when I saw it, and I still do, but I have never felt the need to go back to it. Yeah, I think that makes a huge difference as well. That's just one example. I also think that they were very, because they knew their list would be ripped apart, and I think, first of all, lists are almost always totally subjective and ridiculous. But often they can be seen as trolley or, like, fire starting.

I thought their list was incredibly responsible, if that's even a word that matters to ignite debate rather than consume it. And one of the things they did in order to preserve that, I believe, was they were very careful to make sure that the great filmmakers, you know, consensus, more or less, were represented. Whether that was Miyazaki with Spirited Away or which Cohn Brothers movie they chose to put on because clearly one was going to be on. Right. So we should talk, before we get into our individual list, we should do two things. We should talk about the overlaps. And then I think there's a couple movies where we went in different directions in terms of choice of movies. but agree on filmmakers.

Sure. So, overlaps. Yeah, well, why don't we just, the overlaps we had were, um, were pretty simple. Zodiac,

which is my number one movie. Mm-hmm. There will be blood. Michael Clayton, the assassination of Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford, Sicario and collateral. Sicario,

the official film of this podcast. I, I, I, grant you that is, I think in most critics list would not make that, but is such an important movie to us. Yeah.

I think it should make the list. For any number of reasons, both in terms of its theme, but also one of the nice things about lists, especially when you choose an arbitrary period of time to cover, is that you want to tip forward a little bit. You want to acknowledge the future, and Denis Villeneuve is a very important filmmaker, or if he isn't, he's certainly about to be.

And I think it's important for him to be on the list. Yeah. So do you want to talk a little bit about Michael Clayton? Because I... Yeah, I think this may change by the time we post it right after we record here. I think Michael Clayton might be my number one movie. Ever?

No. Oh, just in this 25. Yeah. It is a screenwriter's movie first and foremost, because Tony Gilroy is a master's screenwriter. It is a screenwriter's movie of someone who knows all the tricks, has been beaten down by the system, and has written a movie basically about someone who is in that same position, and left it all on the table. You know, it is Clooney at his absolute best. It is a filmmaker somehow given enough carte blanche to tell the story he wanted to.

to do it artfully and stylishly. But ultimately, it is just a kick-ass movie. It is a 70s-style movie about a guy in a bad situation. There's an explosion, and there's a great ending shot a la la the graduate. It doesn't have the flare necessarily or the explosiveness and power of some of the other films that we're going to talk about. It doesn't the dialogue. The dialogue. It just rips that movie.

You put, there are Tom Wilkinson monologues and Michael Clayton that I would put up against set pieces in any action movie. And just to go back to your point, both of our lists have one thing in common, which is you have to love watching these movies. Yeah. And get excited at the thought of watching them again. That does it for me. Do you want to make your case for Zodiac? Yeah, I would just say Zodiac is one of the great American crime films ever made. It features several of some of my favorites.

It's got the best Robert Downey Jr. performance. Neither of these made their list, right? No. Is that correct? It's got the best Robert Downey Jr. performance, which is no small thing. It has the quality that, you know, and especially now when we talk

so much about the blurred lines between film and television, whether or not you're watching Zodiac for the 13th time on AMC, or you're seeing it in a rep theater or you saw it when it first came out, it has this ability that I still think,

is sort of singular to the movies, which is to completely suck you into a world, right? It has, from the finest little set design details that it has, from the equipment that they use to make the covers of a newspaper or to make newspapers, to the drinks that they have at the 1970s San Francisco bars, it completely sucks you in. You think that you are living through this time

in the Bay Area and that you're going through this journey with Jake Gyllenhaal and Robert Downey Jr. and Mark Ruffalo and Anthony Edwards. And I think it's Fincher's masterpiece. I find something new to be fascinated by in every time I've watched it. It's got such a deep bench of interesting character actors in it. Chloe Seveny's good and Jimmy Simpson is in it. You know, all these, it's just, for me, it's just been the movie that I've gone back to over and over and over again. It's an incredible movie about obsession by an obsessive filmmaker. And in some ways, it is the, you know, you could say that Fincher is a dark filmmaker and people

point to seven or fight club and the nihilism maybe in those movies. But this seems to be the clearest distillation of his interests and his fascination with humanity. I think we overstate the Autour Theory at times in general. And certainly we mostly talk about TV, and there are ways that it absolutely applies and then ways just by the nature of television that it just can't apply. In terms of movies, a filmmaker has to find a way into the movie that is deeply personal, whether it is overt, whether it's explained, or whether we'll never know. We can just feel it. I think that's essential.

You said it exactly, which is that all the stories about Fincher and what it's like to work with Fincher are that he is exacting. Let's put it that way. And there were stories about him directing Jake Gyllenhaal in this movie, right? It's like doing 30 plus takes. Yeah, and it was like Robert Downey Jr. used to start, was like leaving pee and in his, like, urinating in jars and leaving it around the set to prove a point about like the control that Fincher wouldn't let him go to the bathroom, basically.

This is a movie about obsession. And, you know, like I just said about Michael Clayton, it's a movie about a guy who could be better and has been beaten down and isn't better. Yeah. It is hard and knows it. collateral is visually and I'm not just saying this because I live in Los Angeles now it's just

devastating I mean it's just devastating I mean it's just an incredible visual marvel with these remarkable performances from some of our favorite actors it is savage Tom Cruise which is low-key what Tom Cruise might really be in real life but again you have Michael Mann as a filmmaker

making a movie about a guy who is so dedicated to his craft that he will murder people for it, you know? There is something personal about all these films. It's interesting that the five that we're talking about in assassination too, this is really like, this is the macho five. Yeah.

These are some hard for... I have a pretty macho list. I'm not proud of it. Captain John would love these films, I think, all of them. Let's talk about some things that we differed on, but we essentially, you know, we put other movies by these filmmakers. Right. One is, we both put a Cohen Brothers movie.

on. Yeah. You put No Country for Old Men. Unimpeachable choice. Yes. I put Inside Lewin Davis, which surprised me. I'm surprised. I did not expect Inside Lewin Davis is starting, when I looked around to see who else

had made lists like this, what were some of the consensus movies. A lot of Inside Lewin Davis on these lists. And I remember a lot of excitement for that movie. And then it was a real one of those Cohen brothers that people are like, oh, yeah. And then it seems like now is gaining a critical appreciation. One of the most amazing things about the Coen brothers, and I think underrated in this because there are so many things to say about them, is the pure rewatchability and what you discover.

Yeah. I saw Hail Caesar once. I thought it was cute but an essential movie. I saw it a second time, and I thought it was hilarious. I've now seen it three times. I flew on a lot of planes less year, you may remember. I think it is brilliant. Like, I can't believe how brilliant it is in so many ways.

And for me, inside Lewin Davis, it is so rich that the first time you see it, and a serious man is like this too. It's possible to just watch it on the surface and enjoy it. And then you realize how every choice is impeccable, how every emotion that it picks at is a scab that maybe you have to. And then you combine it with the wintry city, the way they filmed at Oscar Isaac's performance, which should have made him a superstar and in a slow motion way kind of did. And what it says about art. that here's someone whose life was worthy and is interesting, and he wasn't really good enough. I mean, there's something so devastating about that

that I come back to it a lot. Some of the other movies that we picked that we had different, you know, we wanted to get a director, but so I have several Steven Soderberg movies. Admittedly, I was actually the biggest thing, the hardest thing would to leave off,

and I thought leaving it off, eventually it was hard to get it in there, but I did not put haywire on, which I think is actually, like, low-key, one of the best movies of the millennium. But I have Magic Mike and Ocean's 11. I can't believe that I don't have Sotomberg on my list, but I think it's because I took the opposite tack.

I think Ocean's 11 is terrific. I loved it. I think Ocean's 11 is the movie I've seen the most since it came out. Really? Yeah. I love Magic Mike. I loved it. I think Haywire might have been my favorite of all of this too,

but then I was thinking about it, my favorite Soderberg films are still missed the cut. Not to say he's gotten worse in any way, but none of these are out of sight, you know? Yeah, because of the date, right. So he's not on my list. We both put an Adam McKay-Will-Farrell collaboration. Yes, I'm very excited to talk about this.

This is an interesting split. I put Anchorman on my list, like top 10 on my list. Yes. You have stepbrothers on your list. Yes, I have stepbrothers. number 12. I want to say nothing is funnier

than these movies, probably, full stop. Anchorman, I probably have seen more than any other movies since it was released. That's why it's not on my list.

Because it's... Because I can't, I don't... It'll come back around, but now Anchorman is like, I've seen Anchorman as much as Ghostbusters. I think the thing is, and I think this is kind of the consensus,

I think this is actually... I think you're probably in the right in terms of like film Twitter. Seriously, though. Like, Step Brothers, is probably an absurdist masterpiece. Let me tell you something that I don't know for a fact, but I believe. I bet Step Brothers is considered very, very, very, ranked very, very highly in France.

Like, seriously, it is a masterpiece for what it is. And I think that you may be right on some level, because that also hangs together in a way, whereas Anchorman, remember, they just said action, and then they literally filmed a second movie that they carved out of the first movie. But nothing makes me laugh harder than Anchorman. about Bill's pod with Will Ferrell for a lot on Anchorage. To talk about it. Yeah.

But I was very happy that we both did that. What about our, speaking of France, what about our man Olivier Assayas? Yeah, I have Carlos. Carlos is his, how many hours? Depends on which version you watch. I think it's up, it's around four and a half hours. They broke it up into two. Explain it to the people.

It's Olivier Asiasis' epic, epic look at Carlos the Jackal. and he was a terrorist who sort of wreaked havoc on the world throughout the late 60s and 70s. And it is such a cool movie. It is maybe the coolest. Edgar Ramirez is incredible as the lead character as Carlos the Jackal. But Asaeus made this choice to make essentially this almost cinema verite look at this time in the world in Germany, in the Middle East, and in South America. And he scores it with like early to mid-80s wire songs.

So these like kind of industrial electronic songs and there's some feelies, like some late 70s post-punk. But it is such a incredibly feeling movie. And a lot like Zodiac, it brings you into a world that is not exactly the, you know, it's not a realistic representation of the world, but it uses realism as a tool. And I just remember, you know, it kind of trails off

in the second half of the movie. The first half is definitely better. But, oh my gosh, Carlos is just one of the most fun, like the most incredible experience is watching a movie. I mean, if Olivier Sias makes a movie, you should see it.

I mean, Irma Vep, Cloud of Seals Maria. I have not seen Personal Shopper yet. Heard, super dope. Yeah. I put summer hours on there, which is maybe the more conventional norm core pick.

Okay. because that is about a family of adult siblings who have to deal with their mother's stuff. Let me tell you something about me. This is not going to surprise anyone. I love foreign films about families having to get together

and do stuff. I love them. I am happiest in the movie theater. Let me rephrase that. Right now I would be happy to be in a movie theater. But when I used to go to them, especially in New York,

I would actively seek out like film forum or quad cinema or whatever. I'm like, oh, a Taiwanese four-hour film? Give it to me. I love it. I was just sit there. I was probably meeting you after the movie. It was like maybe I had an app free afternoon.

I was standing outside of Quad City and they're like, I really mean it! Like Edward Yang's Yee, which was on the New York Times list. You got it pretty high on your list, dog. It's a masterpiece. It is a deeply moving movie that you just kind of got to slide into and just be in. And summer hours is like that too. I want to talk a little bit about how not every movie I have here involves men and guns. And speaking of which, in your defense, you don't have a born movie on your list.

Quit the podcast. I know. I was born or Sicario as far as, you know, the watch flagship movie. Which one would you put on? I did put Sicario on. Oh, which born movie? Ultimatum, second. Ultimatum's third.

Oh, sorry, the second one. Supremacy, yeah. I have identity in mind. Sorry, but make your case why you're not a monster. I do think that the link later before trilogy, painful to leave them off. No, I have before sunset as 10. I'm only talking about myself.

Okay. Is his masterpiece? Yeah. I guess before sunrise came out, before 2000? When did it come out? The first one was before that, yeah. Yeah, but before sunset is my favorite film of the group. I think it's probably the best.

And it's still, I just find that movie to be absolutely perfect, especially the ending. Maybe the best ending of a movie of all this. of all the films in this list. I think that's a strong case to be made. You have a lot of Tarantino on your list. I do. I have none.

Yeah. We've gone over that. All my Tarantinos are in the 90s. This stuff I just can't roll with. You don't have any... I have Tarantino second with Inglorious Bastards, 11th with Kill Bill Part 2. Yeah.

I was surprised to see... There are two filmmakers I thought might show up on your list. And I'm pretty mad at myself for leaving Django off. Do you have Zero Dark 30 on your list? I don't. I have the Her Locker on. Zero Dark 30 I would actually put in the... group of films that, like the blue is the warm's color,

a group of, like, incredible experience. I've seen Zero Dark 30 multiple times. Zero Dark 30 has obviously not necessarily aged well. Yeah. And time has sort of made that movie a little bit harder to take. It's sematically and technically still a masterwork. I think you're right. I think, you know, I'm glad you brought that up because I have never seen that again.

The first time I saw it was a very, very intense experience. and I was and I what I remember is the experience of seeing it. I don't know if it holds up. I don't know if I would want to watch it again. I might have to poke at that. One of the reasons the master is not on my list. And it's not just because I only want to do one from each filmmaker and I put their oldie blood on.

It's because similarly in terms of like your experience of it, that's the movie that I saw. I saw like the, there was a premiere or press premiere at the Ziegfeld, no longer around theater in New York. And as the lights were dimming, I got a text from my life. wife saying she was pregnant. So the entire time I'm watching Ropee Joaquin Phoenix bang into walls. Did she know where you were? She doesn't think she cared. She thought I was a quad cinema. Right. She was banging on the corner. She was like, I know you're, you're running back EEE, but

couple of major filmmakers I thought might show up on your list. Mike Lee. I got Topsie Turvey way high on mine. God, I love that movie. Yeah. Nothing for you. No working class British travils. I love Mike Lee, but I was probably closer to putting snatch on my life. list than Topsie Turvey. Okay. Speaking of Brits, Michael Winterbottom had a very, very diverse century so far. 24-hour party people is on my list because if you want to talk about movies, you can watch a million times and still have a blast.

That's there. I have to have some, there's a complicated math to it all. I would say that the first the trip is very high up there. Oh, yeah, good point. But it did not make my list. As far as UK directors, I do have 28 days later from day. Danny Boyle, I would say that the first half of sunshine is very high up there too. All the sunshine really falls apart in the second half.

But 28 days later, especially for what it did in terms of like reimagining this dystopia and reimagining the post-apocalyptic as something that could happen to a bike courier rather than Will Smith was really, in a lot of ways, I think it, for better or for worse, brought on this wave of zombie and imagining the apocalypse entertainment, but it's still probably the freshest, most original horror movie that came out this millennium. One other potential absence from both of our lists.

Although I did have the dissent on my list, too. Oh, yeah. Which is, I think I do. You do? Yeah, the dissent is also my other favorite horror movie. One of the things that the Times got dinged for a lot was the absence of children of men. It does not seem to be on your list either.

Yeah, it's never been one of my favorites. One of my favorites for sure, but it's interesting that other than children of men, the three great Mexican directors who in many ways have dominated this century, Guillermo del Toro, you mentioned it previously, In Uri2 and Quirón. And Quaron are not present here.

Why do you think that is? Gosh, you know, I think the part of it is that for Quarone movies, first of all, like, he's made some bad ones. So is In Uri2. Yeah. I always am very intrigued by, you know, Revenant, Birdman, gravity

children of men I find them very intriguing but I don't often You're mixing the two there right Yeah Of just all their movies Hellboy Hellboy is probably

One of the best of this Yeah I'm not actually a Deltora fan But I often just find them to be cool event movies That I don't ever want to watch again What about you? I think they've all I think in Yuri 2

has influenced filmmaking in an enormous way But I don't think he's made any movies that deserve to be on this list, frankly. I think his movies are incredible to look at. I think the cinematographer, who works to both of them, are Manchivo,

is, you know, like Roger Deacons, I mean, there's a thing to be made. Maybe you and Sean could do this, because I'm not qualified, of, like, the cinematographers that have actually defined this century. But I don't think those movies necessarily stand up compared to a lot of these other ones. Speaking of major filmmakers, we both have a Spielberg. Different ones.

I had to ride from Munich. I know. You're O.G. And Munich was in the Scott and Darkest list. I mean, I got to have the Jewish action movie. Come on. I have Minority Report. Great movie. Yeah.

Why that one? Because I think that that is from that AI period where Spielberg was really, that was the last time I feel like Spilberg was really pushing that envelope and like making really, really interesting art as well as it blockbuster entertainment. Is there anything else? Although I mean, Lincoln's great. You know what I mean? I'm not saying he completely abandoned me. He fell off. Yeah, right.

Any, for both of us, things that killed you to leave off. Anything in your minds? I mean, tons of stuff. Tons of stuff. And there's stuff here that are personal things, like, not personal, but, like, Training Day has just been a movie that I've seen a lot. Like, it's like a movie that was very important to me when it came out. Let me vouch for someone who knew Chris Ryan in the 2000s in New York City at bars.

Training Day was very important to him. Yeah, the Departed actually is not aging well. in terms of its actual cohesion of a movie but God it's fun but Jesus it's so fun I would say that the two movies here on my list that are fast risers

and that as I get older I have just grown to love more and more are social network and in Bruges Social Network perfectly made movie in Bruges possibly the saddest funniest movie I've ever seen with three of my favorite performances

Ray Fines Colin Faire in print of leason uh what about you what about what movies that you were you were hurt to leave off uh in bruges training day um inside man um magic mike like i mentioned city of god yeah i've got 25 hour in mine but the inside man and 25th hour the two spike movies that i relive in 25th hour is also just like a very living in new york at that time period uh was it was a it was a it was one of the first movies to come out after 9-11 that kind of grappled the 9-11 as a as a thing that affected the characters and felt like the era you were living it i feel like if i could do this again i might put i heart hookabies on it interesting i love that movie it's so weird um i realized

just now that i forgot to put the the version of the list that i'm working off of is not the version you're going to see i'm glad that you're yeah because i forgot to put mohalan drive on it oh yeah what is wrong with us yeah me too um i mean you just in terms of movies that burrow into your darkest psyche and will never, ever let go. I think, you know, it's fun to make this list, both for the big statement purpose of it, to think about movies that you want to put a lay down a marker.

It's just great to go back through the movies and fight with each other, like fight with yourself about what gets on there, though. Because there are movies on here, like I mentioned topsy-turvy and yee, but movies that are so personal that it's hard to explain, not that they were made only for me, but it's hard to explain

if you just aren't in immediately. There's a Taiwanese movie called What Time Is It There that I've been thinking about ever since I saw probably at Quad Cinema or whatever the place was actually called. But Loveline Amazing by Nicole Hollis-seigneur is, I think about that movie a lot

when I was a TV critic, just in terms of what she was able to do with real human being, people interacting with each other based on emotions and family connections. And to do it all in such a short amount of time. I think she is a master filmmaker in that way, in a way that we usually praise European filmmakers for

and ignore American filmmakers for. She is not trying to make Inglorious Bastards or Zodiac. She's only ever making movies about groups of women and how they interact with each other. All of them are worth seeing. The last one she made enough said with Julie Louis Dreyfus and James Gandalfini, that's on TV a lot. That's your jam.

People should watch that movie. It's really good. Yeah, I mean, I had to put Lost in Translation on. I feel like that movie has gotten a lot of dirt kicked on it ever since it came out, but it was beautiful. It was a beautiful movie to see in the theater and the soundtrack and just the aesthetic. No superhero movies for us. That was my last thing I was going to say.

I thought that we would somehow throw one on. And what the Times List did was in a nod to Blockbuster movies or popcorn movies, they put Mad Max Fury Road on their list, which deserves to be there. Absolutely. That was in the short list for me. Me as well. It's a little bit disappointing, I guess, to me, that there wasn't another one, another superhero movie to put on here.

I mean, Dark Night is just something that I think, I find the last 40 minutes of Dark Night so stupid that it's hard to remember how good the bank robbery is and how good everything that happens up until then is. By the way, low-key Nolan, I'm still thinking about, putting the prestige on. I was still thinking about putting Inception on. But yeah, the movies, because of the ends, because of the punching and the mechanics, they haven't figured how to do that. I mean, someone would probably make a case that the best superhero

movie would be Birdman or Scott Pilgrim or something that was sort of superhero Jace. Yeah. You can tell me, and I will agree with you, that X-Men 2 or Spider-Man 2, or even Guardians of the Galaxy or Winter Soldier are high, high-quality movies bordering on excellent at times. And they are, whether because they capture the spirit of the character of the people, love or because they have clever things or visuals, but you can't put them on the same list as there will be blood. It's just, it's not, there's good and then there's great. Yeah.

And that's different. But I think everyone can agree on that distinction from good to great, but what they probably can't agree on is what you want to fight for. Yeah, absolutely. It's a good way of putting it. So I hope that this was fun for people. Yeah, we'll put these lists on Twitter, on the watch, Twitter, at the watch pod, on my Twitter on Andy's Twitter.

Send us yours. Send us yours. Yeah, absolutely. And tag the Times critics too because they've been retweeting people. Yeah. And so here's the deal. The Twitter, Game of Thrones after show,

talk the Thrones. That's on after every episode of Game of Thrones on Twitter. Twitter.com slash the ringer. You can find it. Twitter.com slash ring you'll find it there. You will not miss it. We will make sure you find it. So we'll be doing that with Jason Concepcioni and Mallory Rubin

after every Game of Thrones episode. Live Talk the Thrones We'll be happening July 11th At Largo With Andy, me, some special guests Jason and Mallory We're really excited about that Details about that

We'll fire those off As soon as you're hearing this pod We'll be back on Thursday To talk Fargo Clause And Twin Peaks And Andrew Gurdadar We'll join us to talk A little bit of good bad movies

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