The Watch - The ‘Barry’ Season Finale. Plus, ‘Hacks’ Season 2 With Creators Jen Statsky, Lucia Aniello, and Paul W. Downs

Episode Date: June 13, 2022

Chris and Andy talk about the Season 3 finale of ‘Barry’ and what puts this show in the conversation for best things they’ve seen this year (1:00). Then they talk briefly about the new Ben Whishaw show ‘This Is Going to Hurt’ (27:50), before Andy is joined by ‘Hacks’ creators Jen Statsky, Lucia Aniello, and Paul W. Downs to talk about the second season of the show (37:41). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guests: Jen Statsky, Lucia Aniello, and Paul W. Downs Producer: Kaya McMullen Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. This episode is brought to you by Brooks. Running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interest that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line.

Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. I need supports to have to clear the run. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to the watch. is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the wrigger.com and joining me on the other line, fresh from a rehearsal of ChromeFuck number nine. It's Andy Greenwald. You know, it's a challenging

work, but I believe I do my best in the theater, you know, in the live, live arena. That's where I first saw you, Andy, is when you were doing on-stage improvisational comedy. Greenwald, but thank you. It's great to see you. Monday. Here I am in downtown Los Angeles surveying this great city of angels. Also the setting for Barry, a show we will be talking extensively about today.

The season finale aired last night. I also always recommend people check out Sean's interviews, where his conversations with Bill Hader that went up right after the episodes and it's just such an amazing, unique podcast to get haters' insights as the show

is going on. So please check that on the prestige TV podcast. Greenwald, it's great to see. We also have some special guests today. We do at the end of the podcast. Well, not the end. The 70% last part of the podcast is my conversation. I hope it's a yearly tradition with the co-creators, co-show runners of the wonderful HBO Macs series Hacks, which just finished its second season a week ago.

So Paul Downs, Lucia Nielo and Jen Statsky joined me back on the pod to talk about everything that happened in season two, potential plans and the status of season. three, and most importantly, the just sheer violence of season two's anti-sixers joke, which happened early in the season. Was it violent or was it decidedly accurate? That's not for me to say, because this, to me, this is a victim narrative, you know what I mean? Sure. So I just am processing the emotion still, and it was amazing, honestly, to hear people whom I like, admire,

and just enjoy the company of, like Lucia and Paul and Jen, just deflect. You know what I mean? Like really, really, like be so forthcoming on everything else and then throw one of their fellow writers under the bus for that one. You're good now. You're a Warriors fan now. 100%. Yeah, you're just a big Andresen Horowitz guy now.

Here's the thing, Chris. I'm kind of always been, like, open to, like, Web 5.0 and libertarianism and just, like, letting the markets do what they do. Just recall some DAs. Just do what you got to do. Once they finally left Oakland, I was like, I can embrace this team. You know what I mean? Like, once they moved to a $2 billion stadium on top of what probably was something a lot more interesting,

I could really support them. We joke, but I am dubs all the way. I text Chris constantly. Yeah, I appreciate how much you hate Boston. It's funny. We're going to talk about Barry. We're going to talk a little bit about this is going to hurt, which is a new show. It came out a few months ago in England, but is now on AMC.

Plus and you can watch it there with Ben Wishaw that I wanted to chat with you about. If we have time, we'll hit some boys episode four stuff. Let's start with Barry. One of the best episodes of television, I can remember seeing in years an extraordinary finale for a season, an extraordinary season of TV. There are so many different places to kind of get in here. But I feel like this was one of the first episodes of TV that I watched where I was basically ready to start it from the beginning, start the episode from the beginning,

almost immediately after I had completed it. It feels like this show is so solely on its own wavelength that it's almost difficult to talk about, right? Because it's got its own logic, it's got its own plot logic, it's got its own tone that is almost inimitable, even though I feel like you can find elements of Cohen Brothers and other, you know, this was an episode that I felt was very referential to Stanley Kubrick, but ultimately it's Barry, it's a hater, it's the people who make it. What did you think of the final episode of the season three?

Yeah, I thought it was one of the more remarkable episodes of television I can remember. I thought it was absolutely masterful. And I thought it really emotionally affecting on the two levels that I like to engage with TV on, and I think you do as well, in that I was emotionally riveted

to a degree that was almost unnerving. And also, I was just thrilled, like an electric charge, because of the absolute ballsiness of the whole thing. Both in terms of saying we have built something sturdy enough, it would allow us to push every lever on this giant production mixing board up to 10 or even 11 in some character's cases. We can do that. We are fearless in doing that. But also just the marriage between spirit and craft

you know and I feel like and I'm sure that Sean got some great insights from from Hater about this I have not listened yet but really really blown away by by him honestly not just his performance because his acting was absolutely outstanding but the direction now we know it's been announced that

the forthcoming season four he's going to tour it he's going to direct every episode his direction of this episode was breathtaking and it was breathtaking in a way that you rarely see because it was noticeable, you know, and I mean that in a value neutral way, like the decision to do a lot of dissolves, you know, between the almost the chapters of the episode, each character's little, almost their short story within the 30 minutes. Sure.

The usage of close-ups and everything. You could feel the direction. But because the show, and you mentioned tone, maybe that's where we always come back to with Barry, the tone is so Swedish and it's so unique and it's so completely pouring from his head that the sort of tricks and flips of the direction matched the tone. It was like watching an Olympic high dive act where everything is in sync

and you get a 10 from the Russians or the Chechens in this case. I was just, I have more to say but I might never stop. So one of the things I think I responded to so much in this episode but in this season in general was, we've watched a lot of television recently. Obviously, we were just coming out of this huge wave of stuff that was coming out pre-emmys. There's a bunch of stuff on that I really love quite a bit

from this year so far. I would say that I've been never, I've never been more aware of the mechanics of TV storytelling and the necessities of TV storytelling that I have been right now where, just to take an example out of thin air, Yellowstone, a show that I like a lot. and Yellowstone has found what worked works. Maybe it knew before it was even, you know,

shooting the first day of a production that they knew what the show is going to be and where it was going to go and how it was going to feel. And Yellowstone essentially offers you the carrot of anything can happen. Nobody is safe on Yellowstone. Yellowstone can go anywhere while also being like, it's these people, it's this place, and these are the conflicts that they are faced with. and it is actually just very wash and repeat in a lot of ways.

Now, I'm sure Taylor Sheridan may have like a long plan of who's going to die and where they're going to go and what's going to happen. But there's a lot of conversations that happen on Yellowstone where you're like, I know you guys aren't going to leave the ranch. I know you guys aren't leaving Montana. I know you're not going to do this. I know what would the show be? I never have that with Barry. Barry feels way more. And I wonder whether it's from haters' roots in in Skagit.

comedy and doing some improv and obviously being on SNL, where it feels like there is the superstructure of Barry that's like, there are these five people. And they have this funny setup where they had an acting class together. But then there is this yes and element to it. And they never go back. Like Barry can't go back now. And that the whole series of events that lead us to, I guess, a season four that might be a prison drama is fucking incredible. that they were like, no, we're always going to feel like we can burn the bridge that we just crossed. Barry might not be in Barry's season four very much. I mean, I think he will be, but when Hayter directing the whole thing,

he certainly would be comfortable taking a step back as he has the world to continue to play in. Yeah, I agree. I mean, and we should get to talking about just the boldness of the ending and the way that the show honors, honestly, its emotional content. Because if the thesis of the show is that violence corrupts, everything it touches and every act of violence leaves a mark on the world, a dark mark on the world, pushing everything forward, even if it goes to a place that might affect the drama or the fun or even the challenge of the writers to make it home to have dinner with their families where

they're plotting out season four. They honor that in a way that I think is really impressive and really rare. But I think it also would be a disservice not to just talk about how the craft is on such an elite level. Because you're talking about what TV does and it's all one machine that just gets hacked and repurposed

for different ways some better than others. But essentially, it's this, you know, it's kind of like the, you know,

what's the cup game that Hustlers in New York used to play? Sure, basically three card Monty, yeah. Yeah, three card Monty kind of game.

In that, you know, but like with a mystery novel, I mean, it's always the same thing with drama where the person who did the crime

has to be a character you know or else there's no value, but you can't make it too obvious, but you can't make it to obscure. You know, you want to show people, but hide at the same time. And the way Barry does that,

so let's just take the Janice Moss's father character, played by Wire Great Robert Wisdom. Yeah. Eight episodes, all roughly 30 minutes. His daughter's murder hangs over this season, of course, and brilliantly did a 180 back to it at the very end and the very last shot and respected the character and respected the emotional pull of that character on the other,

characters who incited the drama, right? But he didn't get introduced until the last, I think he was only in the last three episodes. Yes. Maybe he shows up briefly before that. Think about the economy of that story. You know, again, three episodes, the rule of three. So the first time you see him, right, is with, more or less, is with Fuchs. And he tells the story about what kind of interrogator he was where he made, he wasn't the interrogator. He was the prisoner, and he made his interrogator kill himself. And it's an insane story, and it's basically played for laughs while it's a misdirect for what's going to happen to Fuchs. Also, one of the funniest parts of this season is Fuchs being like, that guy must have had, you know, I mean, like, but he probably was coming into the situation with a lot of problems. Might have been a bad day, right time kind of situation.

So that's how we first learn about him. The second way we really learn about him was his behavior with Gene at the top of this episode. Yeah. And it's a stunning scene. And I love the way Barry has moved away from the acting class. But they're still doing a Sanford-Misner exercise. Of course, yes. Even though it's never called that.

I love that. And for people who don't know, the great Sandy Meisner, Google that because that's how I spent my freshman year of college. Gene's final scene in the episode is itself the performance of a lifetime. Exactly. And so in the second scene, though, in that Meisner scene, where he's saying, what was my daughter's name, we see how brilliant and effective he is.

And we also see that he's incredibly convincing, right? Because he convinces Gene to come basically in three sentences. So that by the time it's Barry's turn, we have enough information to be completely not thinking about what is actually going to happen. We know that he has this conviction that gets people to come to talk to him. And then there's the gene piece that distracts us. It was masterful, you know, and masterful in a way that when the other shoe drops at the end and he's surrounded by police, I smiled. You know what I mean? I didn't feel tricked.

I didn't feel railroaded or bamboozled, but I also wasn't checking for it. And that's one of the great feelings you can get from any kind of visual entertainment. And then just we didn't even mention that the reason why Barry can do what it does as a show is why it's not just a kind of edge lord thrill ride that the last shot of the season is Janice's father arriving at some sort of resolution,

but still alone. And how is he framed? with the windows cutting him into pieces because he's shattered because he lost his daughter. And no matter what, whether Barry had been arrested or killed or whether or not he ever, he was always going to be chopped up. You know, he was always going to be in pieces. And I just thought that was like to end it on, this is what violence begets. You know, this is what, that's the crucial thing that has to happen in serious storytelling that incorporates violence into it,

is that you have to kind of take on all of the ramifications of a violent act. It can't just be the sort of cheap thrill of the action. And it's such the best case scenario for Hater, who's, I think, just one or two years older than us, as a child of 80s action movies, it's the best case scenario because the fight at the apartment that, you know, in where Sally fight, where Sally is strangled horrifically

and then beats a guy to death in a podcast studio. which, you know, I hope that wasn't triggering for you in any way. I'm sure it's how I'll meet my end. Yeah. I mean, it's good to know, though, you know, in a way. It puts you a piece with it. It had all of it, meaning it had horrific violence. It had the kind of violence that it was like the hallmark of Schwarzenegger things, you know,

where it's just like gnarly, like the kitchen knife in the guy's neck, but he thinks he's been nicked in the eye. I mean, that's the kind of stuff that people would see on a VHS tape. and then tell people about on the playground. You know, I feel like Hater had those same shared experiences where, like, maybe he wasn't allowed to see Commando or whatever, but then someone else did, and then you heard the stories about it. But he doesn't stay there, you know.

It not only goes to a more savage place, and by Savage, I mean, the emotions in Sarah Goldberg's performance, which is absolutely raw, totally unprecedented on TV this year, I think. But the silence of the booth, you know. And then you twin that with the NoHo Hank, Panther attack, which is entirely on Anthony Kerrigan's face. It's one of the most effective uses of the extremity of what TV can be now that I've seen and can remember.

It was 100 times more effective than if we'd ever seen the Panther. I wanted to ask you a little bit about the dream logic of maybe this season, but specifically this episode, because there is an element, and I feel like the previous episodes purgatory sequences really brought this to the fore where it's like Barry is obviously having this dream as he's ODing or being poisoned or whatever and um as seeing kind of like where you go if you if you if you live a violent life if you live the kind of life Barry does like where you wind up and this is what he wants to save Sally from from and uh you know I was kind of making a joke to you earlier like off off pod where I was like this is kind of like if a soprano's dream episode

was the sopranos it's not as kind of disconnected from the mechanics or the traditional storytelling of the spranos was the dream episodes word of those episodes but were there any moments when you were watching like say when albert finds berry out at the at the burial tree that's obviously this nearly like you know uh cormac McCarthy esk kind of like vivid like depiction of, I don't know, I guess, not I was going to say justice or forgiveness or whatever it is, but it was like, is this really happening? I, like, for a minute, I was like, you know,

how did Albert find him? And Barry didn't hear a car or a person coming and all this stuff. And it's like, well, no, because like, emotionally or intellectually, this needs to happen, but it doesn't necessarily make quote unquote logical sense. But I didn't care because Barry has trained the viewer to understand that even if something doesn't feel, like, yeah, this guy's two blocks away, so he arrives just in time, it makes like, it makes

Barry sense, if that makes a sense. Yeah, and I think in one of the ways the show taught us to be prepared for that was by unsettling us in a different way with the comedy. You know, I think that the times the show goes into broader humor have some people bumped on it, you know, because what is this show? I don't get it if it's going to be both at the same time. But I do think that the more absurdist or industry humor that has defined the show in the first two and a half seasons put us in a position to just be open to reality bending in ways that don't necessarily feel like reality. You know, it has become now, I mean, all the great shows teach us how to watch them.

And this is, you know, it's the last episode of the season. So it's the last time I'll say it this season. But I keep returning the fact that I didn't remember how to watch this show at the start of this season. season. It took me a minute to get back into it. But it teaches you. And there's just certain things now that are part of its tonal language and also its visual language. I was really struck again by their absolute mastery of and commitment to a very specific type of casting. The people on this show don't look like people on a TV show. Now, Stephen Root's been on 70 TV shows. So I don't mean that literally. But I mean the way the margins get filled out with, well, Henry,

Winkler being the co-lead of the show, you know, in his 70s, Fred Melamid showing up, right? Laura San Jacomo just being there after not having major roles for a number of years. Robert Wisdom, you know, like the way that he shot, the way that he walks. I mean, he walks like my dad because he's an older guy. And that grounds us in a reality that feels real and then everything kind of warps around it. I mean, Hater himself, you know, who looks crazy as he should at the end of this season. I guess the way I would illustrate what I'm trying to talk about is like, For the entirety of this series, the police and Barry are essentially like comic relief.

Totally true. Yeah. Like they're almost like hilariously bad at their jobs. And even that line in the finale where he's like, nobody's seen Albert since he cocked his gun and stormed out of here. He's probably sightseeing. Seeing the site, taking it the sights, incredible. And then at the end, there's a SWAT team. Yeah.

And they found him. And it's like they're taking Barry down. and it's this, you know, it's very efficient. It's the height of competence for this, this branch of law enforcement. And I was like, it almost feels like that,

that, like, the show returned back. Like Robert Wisdom's character, that Janice's father was this kind of, almost God judge figure, you know, the grand inquisitor out of like a book, out of Dostoevsky, and that he was extracting or bringing, or bringing people to a greater kind of justice.

And then when that happened, it's like a snap and the real world was outside the door. Do you know what I mean? Absolutely. I think that what the show is suggested to us is that there is a very specific economy to the world, or at least to the world of Barry. And it's that anyone, anyone can kind of do anything

and everyone's just kind of stuck in their own little one man or one woman shows. you know, people are kind of vain and trying to be actors or trying to get petty revenge or trying to be cops and nothing really rises to the level of import or action except for emotion that stems from violence and loss. Yeah. You know, when that touches you, then something changes. And so the vengeance of the father snaps the entire show back into focus. suddenly police are an effective tool in a way that they weren't before. You see it happen with Noho Hank in this episode.

I mean, the performance has always been so wonderful that this wasn't out of bounds for him, but he has essentially been comic relief. And he has skirted on the surface of things because he didn't actually care about the people who were in the gang with him or the people that they went to war against or whatever. But when it became either first his own life and then the life of the man he loves, something else happened, you know? Yeah. It's such a subtle switch to flip, but that was my takeaway from it.

Yeah. But also it's the feeling of like the dream sequence coming in in episode seven of an eight-episode season and like the waves on that beach, like just taking over everything. Yeah. Soaking us in that perspective. I mean, even the chase sequence in the, I think it's six, has a kind of dream logic to it. You know, like, there is like a weird kind of like real but not quite real quality to the show. The one thing I'm going to chew on for a while now, I think, is the relationship between Barry

and Sally. And people have talked a lot about that as an illustration of like the lasting effects of trauma. And I was struck by like the extent to which Barry was sort of trying to do this reverse transference at the end where he was like, this isn't you, this is me. I did this. and the extent to which it's not, are you supposed to think, but I think for every viewer,

they'll have a different take on, was this something? Because this isn't, Sally's violence is not the beginning of Sally's rage, right? Like, Sally has been kind of spinning out for a few episodes now. Is it that Barry unlocked something

that was always in her? Or is it that Barry is like a poison that's settled into her? unwittingly, even for the viewers of the show, who, you know, even going back to season one, when he comes into her life, this is the only destination, this is the only place that this can arrive.

I think the show has always been really smart and really respectful of the idea that Sally is a whole and complete person, you know, I don't mean not flawed person, but is a, you know, an actual adult human in the world before she crosses paths with Barry. You know, I think that the more facile version would be that he corrupted it.

And I actually thought maybe that's where the show is going, when in one episode it seemed as if the berry poison had corrupted Sally and also Gene, you know, when he's like, I have to go in and kill Janice's father, you know, when he sells that. I thought it sold me. I thought that that's where the show is going. And that seemed plausible, if a little bit by the numbers. I don't think that's the case. I think that, I mean, it's just dealing with such a fascinating and,

you know, almost a radioactive stew of people's ego, their trauma, how they process the trauma, and how they impact that trauma on the world and what they do with it, you know? And Barry became a contract killer. And that seemed to work really well for him as long as he walked away from each case, which this season was about that he couldn't, right? There were always tendrils. There were always people left behind. Sally turned it into a TV show that was only on the homepage of was a Banshee for a couple hours. And did she work through it? Did she accept it? Did she process it?

Or did she make a show about it that distracted her for a while? And then something else came out. I like that the show doesn't really have answers about it. It does give Sally and the other characters agency. But it also built us just purely from a storytelling place. That whole

conversation where he's like, I've taken care of it. I love you. I'm going to come to your place. And she's like, great. And she's getting on a plane. To go home. Yeah. Yeah, to go home. Can I ask one last thing about Barry? Yeah. I don't know.

Maybe you weren't done. Maybe there was more. But I didn't want to forget this. This may be, Chris, as you know, I'm very proud of it. I talk about it a lot by not being on Twitter anymore. So maybe this has been a big thing. Maybe this has been discussed. But have people been for weeks, have they been on the season poster of Barry with the donut?

No. What is the? Do you remember when... Or I mean, if they have, I haven't seen anything. When at the Banshee meeting, when they tell Sally what people, the algorithm tells them people watch, and they were like, if you show dessert in the first few seconds, people will watch the whole season. No, I didn't see that. And in the poster, cereal killer, Barry is eating a donut that he doesn't otherwise do in the season?

Maybe no Twitter has, like, just completely sharpened your perception. I mean, without question it has. by the way, how's politics going? Good? That's great. Good. They're having some meetings today. Oh, good. Good. Well, as long as they're just, you know, shoulder the grindstone getting stuff done on behalf of us. I appreciate that. I'm sure Barry will come up as we go through the year and especially when we get to the best of the year. But it was just, what an incredible show. And I'm actually, I saw some, you know,

that last shot should be the end of the series. And I understand that argument. I would love to see, I cannot wait to see what they do with this thing next. Yeah, what are they going to do? I mean, this is fantastic. Yeah. And they've continually done this, and they've written themselves out of it before.

I mean, who you don't get this season between Barry and Gene without Gene finding out at the end of season two, which at the time felt insane because it was, you know, we become conservative when we love things. I mean, that's just broadly true, right? But in the case of television shows,

it's like, oh, no, this has upset the equilibrium of something that I've been enjoying. And now Casey Boyes gets his Oz reboot, you know, fuchs and Barry in prison. You want to talk a little bit about this is going to hurt? Going to hurt? Yes. Yeah, let's talk about it. So this is a show for people who don't know that's on AMC Plus.

Maybe you still have a subscription from when Andy and I forced you all to do that for the bureau. And it is a British show starring Ben Wishaw. It's adapted by Adam Kay from his own book about his experiences. as an OBGYN-YN doctor in an NHS hospital in England. It's set in 2006. It is essentially, I would call it more of a character study than a medical procedural, although there is elements of that. I think if you are somebody who enjoys medical shows like House and ER,

you'll find things to like in it. If you just like shows like Fleabagg that are like deep dives into a character, I think there's a lot to find in this show. I personally loved it. But so the two episodes are up now. you can check out. I don't want to get too much into what happens in the first episode

to take away from people's enjoyment of it. But I wanted to ask you a question. There's lots of stuff that we talk about where I'm like, oh, Andy didn't like this as much because he has kids and this is a little violent. I wonder whether or not watching a show like this, which is a pretty harrowing depiction of the childbirth industry, I guess,

for lack of a better term, is like maybe not as like palatable for somebody who's, been nominally through childbirth a couple of times like you have. Yes. I mean, again, I can only speak to it as someone who has been in the room. Yeah. I mean, I, I'm not saying, yes.

Shouts to Hamilton. I was in the room where it happens. So from my version of it, it was extremely harrowing, only because, you know, I was, we were extremely fortunate to have two, you know, very good outcomes and good experiences. But the fear and the anxiety don't really go away with time of what could happen. And again, the show is not, for people who are a little nervous about watching it, who may have kids or maybe thinking about having kids,

it is not, you know, a nightmare. You know, it's just more, like not everything goes wrong. There's not a lot of that. It's just that it is a quite literally messy business and dangerous and harrowing and stressful. So, yeah, it was occasionally a lot. There was some turning away. Yeah. But, you know, I think there would be turning away for anyone

because it is a, unlike a lot of American medical shows, at least historically, it shows stuff. You know, it shows stuff. And not just, like, bodies, but the kind of really unexpected violence of surgery, you know, like, because I think we all like to imagine that if we were ever under the knife, that people are going to be like, yeah, we're just going to gently pry this open.

It's not that. Well, I'm just like to imagine that I would be like knocked out for three days. Not awake for it, just with a little curtain separating you from people going, oh, fuck, just really close to you. So, yeah, there is that piece of it. I thought that I didn't, I don't think I, I don't know if I love the show yet, but I like it. And for me, it's mostly the direction is really excellent and really kinetic and intense. but Ben Wishaw is one of my favorite actors and it's not just because he's the voice of Paddington.

By the way, Paddington 3 announced today. I know you're excited about that. I mean, one of the reasons why I really wanted you to check this out is because we did like London Spy, which is another show that Ben Wishaw carried and is very much, you know, he is at the beating heart of that. He's in almost every shot.

Like he is, he is a star in that sense that he is capable of carrying an entire story almost by himself. And this is an ensemble piece. there are some really great other performances in it. But his sort of ability to be caustic and then vulnerable and capable and then clueless and all these things at once, it's, you know, there's elements of it that I think would have made a great feature versus a great series. But the fact that it is a pretty limited series, I think also makes it kind of like a little bit more like, yeah, we like, I know, I know what I'm in for here.

I want to give, I didn't have her name. before Lucy Forbes directs the pilot. And it's just, it's phenomenal. I mean, it just, it's one of those things where even if there are aspects of the show that you're bumping on or not fully tuned into, like there's a consistency of vision here. Like, not just the 2006ness of it with the kind of, you know, with flip phones and things. Yeah. But, but the whole world feels like the waiting room of a public hospital.

You know, it's just, it's not, nothing's particularly particularly. pretty and everything's hard. And I think that they really captured that top to bottom. They didn't, they didn't cheat in some areas over another. But yeah, I think for me, it's just everything is on Ben Wischaw. He carries the entire thing. He's in almost every scene. He talks to us, which bumped me a little bit, the sort of fleabaggy, fourth wall breaking. Only because it happens a bunch in the beginning and you're like, wait, are we committing to this? And then they go away from it for a long time. Yes. So I didn't love that. It didn't feel necessary. It felt a little bit like a hedge. But he's one of my favorite actors. He's considered one of the best actors of his

generation. I mean, he's one of those people like, I forget his, what's the guy, the guy from, the guy from Fleabag, the friend from Fleabag who also had like every 10 years, there's like a generational hamlet. Oh, right, right. But Wish I had had one of those. And yet his talent is so specific and precise that generally you feel like on the screen. You're thinking of Andrew Scott. No, okay, right. I was thinking of Andrew Scott from Fleabag, but I was all. also thinking on a younger generation. Yeah. But I was thinking of, I may destroy you.

And I was thinking of Papa Esidu, whose name I'm definitely mangling, who has a more recent generational Hamlet. Must be fun to be in England and be like, oh, who's Amlet this year then, love? And be like, well, we'll be watching that person for the next 10, 15 years. Anyway, it did seem like Wishaw's talent and just his tiny bird presence would be better served on stage or as Q in the James Bond movies, right? Or is the voice of Paddington. Like, it's great to see him get a starring vehicle where he can just own it with all of the complexity and charisma he has.

So I'm into it for that reason. But this was a big hit in the UK, right? Like, this was a big show. I mean, UK hits are all relative because there's like 90 people there. But yes, like. And 70 of them have COVID right now? No, but I think that this was a sensation. And I think it was also one of those things that's set in 06, but was released at a time when the NHS has been on.

or kind of continuous attacks from the conservative government and also is coming out of, not coming out of, but was recovered from the worst of COVID. And is the NHS going to collapse? Are these hospitals going to get overrun? So for people to be able to see something where it's like, this isn't the same thing, but it's a similar vibe.

Is there a version of the show that is watched by people on camera on the other show you told me about in England? Oh, Gagelbox? I don't know. That's a great question. I'd love to see their reactions. Do you want to say anything about Boyce episode four before we get to hacks? I guess there's not much specifically to say

other than the fact that like I just want to give it its flowers because I'm just loving it. I just think this has been the best season of the boys so far. This is the best season. Yeah. I don't even think we need to spoil the episode

just that like the pleasure ratio, like the delivery of it. Even, you know, it has an extremity every episode. It has pretty good parodies. there's a A-Train energy drink parody of the Kylie Jenner Pepsi commercial in this episode that is pitch-perfect. And one of those ones where you know what they're making fun of, but it doesn't matter because it's done so well. It just executes on such a high level. Yes.

I mean, it's just, I feel like to feel, it feels so sure of itself. And, you know, like in the first season, I think it took a little while to be like, yes, Vought, which is a mega corporation that has lots of verticals and all the stuff that you need to do start everything. The second season with Iowa was really awesome, but this is like, it's like a runaway train right now. And I really can't wait to see where it winds up in the introduction of, as has been teased throughout, so it's not a spoiler to say Soltra Boy, as this kind of homelander before homelander and worse is pretty, pretty great. Why don't we get into the Hacks interview? Yeah, so no other setup, just to say that this, we're going to talk about everything that

happened in season two of hacks. And, you know, Paul, Lucia, and Jen are the co-creators, co-showrunners. We joke about this in the beginning. Paul and Lucia are partners in all things. They got married between seasons. Jen officiated the wedding. And I do say this again near the end of the interview, but, you know, I have no insider knowledge here, but I just think it's criminal that it hasn't been renewed for season three yet. It's not just that we love this show. This is an Emmy award-winning show on a streaming service that is still building its base and building its reputation in the world and the town or whatever. And like, what are they doing? I don't understand why it wouldn't be a no-brainer. You have a debut comedy that breaks through enough in this atmosphere to win two

Emmys and big Emmys. Gene Smart winning for best lead actress in a comedy deserved and the trio I'm about to speak to winning for best writing of a comedy series. You just rubber stamp it. These guys know what they're doing. But you'll hear it because they're wonderful to talk. to great people, great show, great conversation. We'll be back on Thursday. I think we'll probably talk a little bit about dark wins. We'll also, what was the other thing I want? Oh, for All Mankind, maybe we'll chat about if we can.

So here we are another week. Everybody have a great one. Andy, lovely to talk to you. Kaya's our producer. As always, see you soon. The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with Fandul Predicts.

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Terms apply. For the second straight year, and I hope for many more, I am joined by the creative brain trust by the brilliant HBO of Max show Hacks, Jen Statsky, Lucienielo, and Paul Downs. Welcome back to the show. Congratulations, since we last spoke, you've made an entire season of television.

Two of the three of you have gotten married. All three of you have won Emmys. Has this caused friction in the group? We also had a baby. Oh, my God. Which two? We're not going to say. Yeah, we want you to guess.

Dear listeners, please text your guess into the show. Congratulations. The married people did. Thank you. And actually, we should say that Jen officiated our wedding. So in a way, she married us, you know. And Jen was not the doula, though. Well, that's the thing is I really pushed to deliver the baby.

But they wanted someone medical experience or something. It involved no writing. The officiant was a task that was written. That's true. It's out of my wheel has. We said it's not your core competency, Jen. I wish she was there, though. I do.

I genuinely wish she was there. She would have made us laugh through the whole thing. The birth experience is more. Yes, and. You know what I mean? It's less scripted and it's more improvisatory. Yeah, you want an improviser. How old is the baby if I'm, perhaps?

We'll be three. 14 years old. No, he'll be three months. He'll be three months on Saturday. Oh my God, you guys are in it. Okay. So thank you then even more so for joining me at this time. This is nothing that she had directed during labor.

Yeah. She was directing between contractions. So it's true. I'm sick. Totally fine. That's unreal. Did you make the day? Well, I was on Q-take,

which means that you can, like, see what's on camera at home. So I... The day was made. The day was made. We make our days. We do make our days. Lucia was, like, home having contractions, watching on Q-take, sending notes to set that way.

And I was, I was acting. So I was on camera. Freaking out. Looking nervous. But you know what? It fueled the scene. It really helped the scene. It was very helpful for me because it was, like,

delivering a note. And Gene was like, well, and I was like, Lucia's asking in between contractions. That's a great way to get your notes. You could get anything you wanted that day. Exactly, yeah. Oh, my gosh. Okay, wow. Well, then I've even more to ask about, but we'll start, I think, at the end.

That's all right. HACC season two ended last week. And there's a question that many people have, myself included, which was, was this finale written to be a series finale or to potentially serve as one? because there's a beautiful amount of closure in it. Not totally, of course, but there is a lot of satisfying moments between characters, people, a lot of things, open questions are answered or settled,

and people are either resolved or set free on the next phase of their journey. No. No, I'll speak it once. Okay. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think exactly what you said is the next phase of their journey is very much how we look at it. We wrote it wanting it to feel, of course, we want every season finale to feel satisfactory.

and give people a sense of like a nice ending to some story. So we feel really flattered that people have seemingly been very satisfied by it to a point where they say like, oh, is this the end? But no, we very much so never wrote it intending it to be the series finale and are not thinking of it as one. When you let Josefina get drunk, I was like, oh, no, this is it. Because where else could you go from here? that is that's one of the cliffhangers is like what happened that night with hosepina yeah how do we get hosophina

out of jail but you know that's actually probably easy for debor vance because she knows a lot of yeah i feel like all palms are greased in Vegas yeah exactly and hosophina everyone likes her so that's the thing hosophina may know more people than deborah she's actually more well-liked universally actually hosafina should run for mayor yeah well she knows where all the bodies are buried Right? That was another revolution this season. I think we talked about this last season when we spoke as well, but I just, I mean, I just want to say it again because I can't commend you enough for it. I think one of the things that HACS does so well and apparently effortlessly, although I'm sure there was a lot of effort involved, is to just give us this community of characters that we just immediately feel very warmly about and want to spend time with. And, you know, in a very almost old-fashioned TV way, like, this is the squad. I can't wait to be with them.

You also have a very modern TV sensibility in the way you make the show in that you never let us settle. You keep pushing. Just when we got comfortable in Vegas, we hit the road this season. Just when I was like, okay, we're back in Vegas. Now we can be with these people for a while. You shake it all up again for what could potentially be a season three. How much of that is just your natural, the way you like to work and write and develop versus just the sensibilities of modern storytelling and modern serialized TV making. I think we really try and be story first and just feel what, you know, feels to us like

the natural next chapter for all of these characters. And also, I think we write in a way that reflects the kind of stories we like to watch and the way we like to watch things. So initially in season two, we talked a lot about giving people who really connected with the show more of the same thing that they came to know and love, but also making it different and, as you say, sort of deepening that relationship of both our audience to our characters and our characters to each other. And so in sort of doing this resetting of the Deborah Ava dynamic, which allowed us to have a little bit of friction, because in season one we end with them, although there's this cliffhanger of the email, they're in a very, very good place. We were able to sort of reset their dynamic

to give the audience that dark mentorship that they came to know, but also setting them, you know, on the road in the middle of nowhere, sort of raises the stakes for both characters. And also, you know, you're traveling with somebody, it really shifts the dynamic and tells you a lot about both yourself and the people you're with. We do really like pushing ourselves to being like, how can this be different? How can this be fresh? We don't want it to feel like a sitcom where every episode you're kind of starting back at zero and you'll learn a little lesson, but then start back at zero the next episode. Like we really want each episode to push our characters and our story and our side characters or whatever to always be like, what else can we do? How else can we reset them? What is a

different dynamic. How can we make Deborah feel a way we've never seen her feel before? Like, we do really enjoy pushing ourselves because it does lead us down paths that are really exciting. And not only to hopefully, I mean, not only to write, but hopefully to watch. Yeah. One thing we also talk about that I do think helps guide some stories or where our characters are at is like, you know, we have this incredible gift that we get to write for Gene Smart and get to write for Hannah and Binder and Paul W. Downs and a lot of other very talented people. And like sometimes we're like, what will Gene be so excited to read to get to play? And so I think that, you know, granted, what Gene's done already seems to be working for her

and people are happy to see it. But I don't want Gene to go, oh, yeah, I'm doing that again. Okay. You know what I mean? Like we want Gene to be like, ooh, this is fun and different. Like I'm singing on a cruise ship that I didn't get to do that last season, you know, like things like that, which I also think helps guide us. There's just the collaborative nature of it. When you hand Gene a script that has her singing on a cruise ship, is her reaction exactly what Jen just did? Fantastic.

This is something new for me to do this week, and I can't wait to go sing on a cruise ship, or is there more steps that you've elided? Usually she does say, she's like, oof, I cannot wait to do this thing. There's certain things that she's really excited to do. For something like singing, I think she's like, how long do I have for a vocal coach?

You know what I mean? She's very prepared, and she comes from the theater, so I think she really wants to be ready for things. She actually asked us if she could sing this season. And then when we wrote it and she read it, she's like, why do you listen to me? No, I don't have enough time. So, yeah, there's a lot of steps.

Yeah, a lot of steps. But generally, yeah, I think she gets things like she was so, you know, season one, the helicopter, she was so excited about that. She's so excited to, you know, I think those more meaty emotional scenes, like she was very scared to slap Hannah and did not want to slap Hannah because they have such a loving off-screen relationship. But, like, I do think they were, you know, digging into something like that.

They're excited to do it. And so we just kind of want to keep giving new different moments for our characters to be in like that. Well, that sort of push-pull dynamic that is television, really, of, like, always giving, wanting to give people something new, but also wanting them to feel comforted and, you know, like, familiar with the things that they've already come to, come to love, was for me really embodied in the finale, in the phenomenal, um, the Ava and Deborah seen on the balcony. And, you know, it is that push-pull dynamic. And it is at once the most warm and loving and emotional moment that they've shared across two seasons.

On the other hand, Deborah's firing her. Can you talk me through the evolution of that scene, even if, you know, on a draft-by-draft basis in terms of knowing what you wanted to accomplish there and how you would get there to land it with that correct balance of this is something we've been wanting. and this is also something that, oh, no, we need to see more. Yeah, early on in our thinking about season two, we knew that's where we were headed. And I should say when we pitched the show, we did pitch sort of what the overall series arc would be for these characters and where they would end up. So we did know some major tent pall moments. And for this one, I guess in terms of it's the iterative process of writing the drafts, we wanted it to be both really altruistic on the part of Debra, that she was doing something that she really believed was for Ava's benefit. letting her go, pushing her out of the nest, saying, you're just like me.

You need to do your own thing. You need to be your own Deborah Vance. Go do it. I take up so much space. But also, because it's true that it's sort of one step forward, two steps back, this is a woman who is very guarded and doesn't let a lot of people in. And so we did want it to also be something that was a little bit self-protective, that she'd gotten so close to this person.

And she'd been betrayed in the past by her closest creative collaborator and also you know, her husband and her sister. This was something that was sort of two parts. And we wanted to make sure it felt balanced. So it never felt too cruel. But it didn't feel just like Debra Vance was suddenly the nicest person in the world because as I think we've all come to know, she's a very complicated character. Yeah, I think that the other half of that scene that I really appreciated as well was the

scene in the dressing room that comes before it before the show when Ava shows up. And, you know, again, it's incredibly emotional and satisfying. but there's a joke about the dirty Cirque de Soleil Show that she's really there to see. And it's taking advantage of what you've given us thus far because really being abrasive is their love language, you know, and so you get to have it both ways in that moment. Yeah, that scene was, you know, in direct contrast to the end of season one,

where Ava leaves, you know, before the final show. And then she decides to come back. And on the flip side, we had Marcus, it was more important for him to be at the show, season one. That's how he lost Wilson. And in season two, he decided to come back. and missed a show to try to reconnect Wilson. So we tried to make those parallels, like show art where our characters had been,

like how they had grown over the course of the season. So speaking of growth and development, I alluded to this already, but, you know, just when we got comfortable with the ins and outs of a show set in Vegas, you immediately leave Vegas for season two. I was curious about just the risk-taking aspect of that, you know, having developed a community that you were comfortable with and then immediately leaving it, And I was wondering if there were other things that were in play as well. Like when I saw that how much of an episode was on a tour bus, I was like, oh, that's very COVID-friendly.

That is about as bubbly as you can get. Did the realities of production at this moment play into some of the decision-making in terms of where you set season two after your experience making season one? Or are we past that in a way that I'm not even aware of? I think there's, yeah, there's certainly still COVID restrictions that come into play in production every. single day that we have to deal with. But when it comes to the larger arc of the season and the storytelling, it doesn't, we don't let it affect it too much. Like we did, we again, like when we planned season one, we knew she would say at the very end, I need to workshop this and I need to do that on the road. And so we knew it would be season two on the road. And, and you're right, it is like

exactly what you're talking about. And you have this idea of like, well, you're taking a risk because you have an established thing and now you're saying it's a whole new setting. Just like you're saying, well, like, I don't doubt that there are some people who probably just want even Deborah to be friends and be friends all the time and have no content. You know what I mean? So it's like you are taking a risk that way because you're saying, well, like, is this what people want? Is that what people want? And like, you just kind of have to block that out of your brain. And so I think the same thing with this on the road premise, it felt authentic to us, to this character of Deborah, that she had, having been on the road so much in her past would say, I need to do this again to work it out. That's what I do.

And so when you look at it from outside in, it's scary because you're like, oh, they're taking the show and they're making it something different than it is. And I think it's always this challenge of staying inside of the show and saying inside of the characters and go, but that's what Debra would do, even if a viewer says, but I want them to stay in Vegas. I mean, I hope this isn't, especially for people listening, that this isn't too abstract. But I am clearly like really fixated in impressed by your ability to sort of push and pull at the same time and calibrate that level of stakes and risk for the characters while still making us feel comfortable with them. Another example of that was, you guys mentioned it earlier, the lawsuit that's sort of the

bomb at the end of season one. And we're like, I'm sorry, not the lawsuit. First, the script, the email. Start with you. Yes. The emails first. And that's sort of the, you know, oh my God, this is going to be the unexploded grenade heading into season two.

Early in season two, you both explode the grenade and then also find a way to put the pin back in. and yet keep it on the table with the lawsuit. You addressed it, which allowed you to play those great scenes between them and to change up the dynamic. But then the lawsuit allows it to stay front and center in a way that is stakesy but also funny. What is the decision making creatively between the three of you to get to that as the solution? Well, what we wanted to do is try to make the email have real, real stakes. And not just in their relationship.

Well, yes, in their relationship, but also that the idea of keeping, as you say, the grenade on the table meant that they could both look at it, refer to it, know that it's there. This is this thing that happened with the lawsuit. But then what we wanted to do is basically keep it like a high frequency of it throughout the season. But then in the end, when actually in the end, Deborah drops the lawsuit and actually Ava sad about it because she was going to get to see her. It's almost like we said, the grenade is cake, you know? The grenade. That's the trick that you thought was really bad and horrible was this thing that in the end, Abe was like, no, this is my one tethered her.

I actually want it to go. I want it to destroy me because it means it's coming from her and I love her and I miss her. Yeah. And the other thing we talked about is we didn't want to hold the anxiety of this email looming too long for the audience because sitting in anxiety is certainly fun when you're watching something, but it also can become exhausting. So we didn't want to do it too, too long. But also, we didn't want it to be this thing that we dealt with and then it was done. So we wanted the email to be something that in its reading, which Deborah has a read it to her,

at the very end of episode six, she refers to it. And she says, the very thing that you talked about in your email is the thing that I need to reflect on to make my material work. So we wanted to have repercussions throughout the season, not just with the lawsuit, but also the content of what was said, to actually have an impact on these characters and not be, isn't this a fun gimmick for next season? We wanted to be really part of the organic story. I love that you mention that because that aspect of it, the sort of the organic nature of it and that the season itself was in many ways about the creative process, which can be incredibly inside baseball, if done incorrectly. I think you did it wonderfully. And I wanted to talk about that balancing act as well.

Like going into the season, you've made some decisions. Like Debra's going on the road with untested material. Ergo, it's going to be uncomfortable sometimes. She might even be bad. how bad could she be and how can she suddenly flip the switch and be good, right? Like that, what was that between the three of you and the rest of the writers? What was the push-pull on that conversation and to get it to where you ended up getting it? Well, we knew that there wasn't a chance that she was going to be able to think her way through it.

She wasn't going to be able to unlock the show just by sitting home and writing things down in a notebook. And by going out on the road, it would force her to confront things in her life, which was great for our storytelling. But also, you know, the thing I think about workshopping material on the road is that, or just workshopping material in general, is like sometimes you just don't know until you're actually on the stage. And I've actually experienced this personally more from improv, which is more of my background than stand up. That like there's this thing sometimes where you're like on stage and you're saying something. or doing something. And then there's this like almost sometimes silence in the air. And in a way, and I know this sounds hippie-dippy,

but like there's like this silence in the silence, it's almost like the crowd is telling you what they want you to say or something. Like you feel it in the air and you're like, this is it. And you're telling me with our silence or whatever. It sounds like I bomb a lot if I'm just talking about that. And that wasn't the best improviser. But I think that that's kind of the same thing with stand-up. It's like, there's this unspoken bond between the performer and the audience.

And it is like a dance. And I think that for Deborah, like being up on that stage is the only way night after night after night is the only way she's going to figure this out. And it's kind of like the only way through is, wait, what is it? The only way out is through. That's it. You see, this is why we work so well together. And for Deborah, that's like what the season is.

It's like, it's going to suck. It's going to be hard. going to be painful, but it's necessary. And that gave us so much to mind. But I think that moment when she goes from the joke that's fine about, you know, and I once woke up during a colonoscopy, to realizing, oh, no, it's actually this way is where the good stuff is. It's not just, I think, limited to stage performers or comedians, because it reminded me so much of something that's hard to describe. But, you know, when you're writing something and you're stuck on a line and the line is fine. And then the moment you realize what the line should be, you realize the thing you thought

was good was the obstacle, right? And it was always supposed to be this. And there's just, you know, at least for another five minutes to two hours, nothing but those guys ahead of you, right? Like it's a very freeing moment. And to see that captured dramatically was pretty exciting. Yeah. And it's tough because exactly what you're saying, though, is like you have to butt up against that joke that isn't working. Like Lucia is saying, you have to, whether it's stand up going on stage and bombing or whether it's, you know, being in a TV writer's room, throwing a million ideas against the wall. You have to go through. through A and B to get to see, and that's the really challenging part of it.

You guys have all worked on shows that have returned for a second season or beyond. It's always its own balancing act, I'm sure. This feels particularly, fraught isn't the word, but heavy, because, you know, all of the things that happened in the last year, we mentioned some of them in your lives. Obviously, last year, you made the first show during COVID. COVID never really ends. You know, last year alone, Jean lost her husband before she was. shooting second season, Hannah had not performed this type of role and, you know, suddenly got a

lot of attention and notice for it. What was it like circling the wagons again? And where were your two leads particularly, where were they at coming back to the show and getting them back on the same page and getting them back into these characters? I think it was really, and this sounds cheesy, but I think it was really very much a homecoming. Because I, like you say, not just for the three of us, but honestly for so many people in our cast, there have been so many big life changes this year. So much has gone on. And it was again,

because we were still making the show during an ongoing pandemic. And so you show up to set and most people are in masks and you're back with this sort of, you know, nomadic family that you have. It really was like it was kind of a comfort to come back and fall back into it. And as you know, we pick up, honestly, a couple hours where we left off in the story.

So it was, in that way, it was kind of seamless and it was really nice to come back together. I think we were all looking forward to it to getting to play. And I also, this is sort of something we speak to in the show, but I don't know, even though we all, well, I was going to say we all had major life events as here.

I didn't really. You married us. That's true. That was a highlight of my life. I'm on your life changed. Your life changed. Yeah, yeah. But like we also, I don't feel like

we ever stopped working on the show. Like we... Because we didn't. Yeah, we didn't really. We edited and we finished editing and then we were kind of doing press and then it started up very quickly after, which is, you know, of course, a gift to be able to be given a season two so quickly. But I think also for me, I don't feel like I've ever stepped away from the show.

I don't know how you guys feel. Haven't for not one hour. And I think that's, you know, talking to other people who've created show. Like, I do think that is just kind of what happens. Like, I don't know that you ever feel when it's your show that you're able to get away from it for better or worse. And it's very much what Deborah and Iva talk about at the pool, you know, you can't turn it off. Even if you're not actively working on it, it's really hard to turn it off. You know, we have poison brain. We're constantly, you know, everything is copy and we're talking about the show all the time and, you know.

But that is part of what we love about it. I think it's like we do love our characters, whether it's the leads or the supporting characters. And we just love the idea of like, what will be fun, what will be exciting, what will be fun to watch and do on set and to edit over and over and to see again in the sound mix. And like, you know, like, it's exciting to us to see what we can do with these characters. And it's like, it does sound maybe a little too like rosy, what is, I have a baby. So yes. Roasted into glasses. But, you know, we do love making the show and I do hope that you feel that when you watch it. I love the dynamic where Lucia speaks for everyone, but the other two finish her idioms.

I think that's incredible useful. I love that you mentioned, Lucia, all the supporting characters, because again, this is the hallmark to me of like a truly wonderful show is where you're excited for any single person to show up or be the lead, potentially, even if it's just for five minutes. In just 16 episodes, you guys have quite a deep bench. And I wondered if in the writer's room or even just among the three of you, do you find yourselves caping up and championing the return or more screen time of ex person, you know, whether it's Joe Mandy at the hotel or Jane Adams coming back as her mom? You know, there are so many people that have not just, you know, great change up to appear on the show, but have a different type of humor and a different type of rhythm and energy that they could potentially bring. And that's before you throw Lori McHaff and Susie Essman in.

Or Martha Kelly. Yeah, I mean, I think honestly the conversations in the writers, is like we love all those characters. And for us, it's like frustrating. We wish we had, you know, 20 more episodes to give them all the screen time we wish we could. So yeah, we, you know, we do, like Lucia said, we love every character from top to bottom. And so it's just kind of, we are always so excited, you know, there's no character and or actor that we're not very excited to write for and very excited to have a peer

on the screen. Was there a draft where like Poppy Lou and Christopher McDonald like come on the bus in episode two and then can't get home? Like I just, when you're trying to bring people on the road, I was wondering what the, you know, the physics of that were like. Yeah. Well, first we go to Who's Tech Avail? No, not really.

But yeah, we do think about different permutations of our characters being together. But again, we always try and do our best to be like, well, but does that make sense? You know, and like that's really kind of difficult for us sometimes because we are somebody just fans. We're just fans of these actors. And so it's like we get we might have an idea for a character and then we think, oh God, you know, it would be so good for a Caitlin Riley. Oh my God, she's so funny. Let's try to get her on the show. And then we can sometimes write in people's voices because we love them, you know, so much. So it really comes, I think, from being fans of actors so often or comedians. I have to ask because it was, I don't know if you guys felt this way when you're making it,

Paul, you specifically, but like for Jimmy and Kayla to be in Vegas with the rest of the cast was a little bit like, like, you know, the Marvel Cinematic Universe crashing into Star Wars or something. I was like, I almost forgot that you guys could share the screen. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because Kayla and Debra, you know, it's not just that they sometimes are on different shows. It's like they're from different planets. And so calibrating that and bringing you guys in, what was that like both creatively, you know, writing it, but then also performing? Well, it's, it's so interesting because, yeah, it's, um, Kayla and Jimmy are this kind of dynamic duo that is sort of a satellite. of the rest of the characters in most of the story.

But as we've been talking about, we try and make sure that their storyline is interwoven into the overall story of our characters. So they are really impacting Deborah and Ava both. Like last season, you know, Kayla getting Ava that job on the sly is the very thing that causes the wedge between Debra and Ava and inspires the slap.

So we always want these characters to impact each other in a major way. So getting them together is so fun because we actually get to see, that it's almost like chemistry. It's almost like, you know, when you're making a volcano model and you're putting the baking soda and the vinegar together and it's just like what's going to happen and it feels really frothy and fun. And this season in particular was really fun, especially because now Kail and Jimmy are on their own to have them sort of be in Vegas and have the whole thing be threatened. And it's it's really a good time. We do like, because we like the family, you know,

the family of the ensemble, it does feel really nice when they're all together, which is kind of a, it's like a big mathematics equation to figure out exactly how to do that in a way that feels authentic, but also satisfying. Also, secretly, everybody's kind of nice in a way that I really love. And I don't mean that it's like softened or neutered or anything. It's just like they were decent in the end, which I do think matters for our heroes in a show like this. And I think it's a line that you walk, you walk very well. I mean, it's a home. I know Mike Scher is an executive producer. That's something that he tends to bring to his shows, but I think it's played very genuinely in your show as well. Thank you.

Yeah, I think we, you know, I don't know. It's interesting because it also, so much of like, sometimes people ask, like, is this intentional or that intentional? And I think that the three of us just kind of have a natural inclination to write a certain way. And so it's funny because we never really said like, oh, we want to make sure all our characters are at the end of the day decent and goodhearted. It's just kind of the way we write.

And I guess what we want to see, which makes sense. You write what your taste is and other. shows don't have that aspect and they're, you know what I mean? It doesn't make them any better or worse. It's just kind of what your taste is and what you want to write and what you want to put into the world. That said, I thought for a minute heading into the middle part of the finale that you are going to make a very, very kind of a shocking political statement, which is that Los Angeles is just far too toxic for creatives that Las Vegas is where people need to be. And I wasn't if I fully agree with that, although there's plenty of toxicity here.

And then I remember that at least one of you is responsible for the violence that was the trust of process joke. Oh my gosh. And I've been blaming Jen. Only one of us. And I just need someone to answer for this as a 76ers fan. I need to hear this. And I need to be talked down, frankly. That's why we're here.

That's why we're here. That's why we're here. Let's get into it. Let's get into it. This is the only part we're using. Yeah, I was going to say the rest of this was just cut out. It just starts with this, the confrontation. That's what the title of that episode is.

Let me hit record. Yeah. Well, listen. Sorry. Totally insincere, by the way. I mean, I guess are you, I have to be, like, are you looking at, did I do, I don't know if I wrote it. I don't know. I don't remember.

I definitely didn't write it. Well, I think actually, I think this is what it was, is that, so I'm obviously a massive basketball fan. Lucia, I have, like, lured in by constantly incessant talking about it to a point where she said, I have no choice but to engage with this. And she enjoys it. And so I think, I think, and Paul is just kind of this. I went to Duke. I went to Duke. So I am a basketball fan.

But really there's only one team. But I think we were talking about the trust, the process, ethos and that being kind of something Ava could bring up to Deborah. And then I think the person you really need to go to their house and knock on their door and scream at them is Joe Mandy. Because I believe Joe Mandy pitched the turn where the bartender's like, oh, no, they suck. They mess it up every year. And I am furious at him for you. I can't believe he would do that. That's actually personal.

from him. That's really rough, but that's, I, I've only met Joe once or twice many years ago, and I felt that energy, you know, I just felt, I felt the hostility. Yeah, he's been gunning for you in every show he's written for ever since that meeting. That's how I watch television broadly, so I assume it's all directed only to me. So this does, this does track with my own ego. No, I mean, it was, it was, it was beautifully constructed. It was just the savagery. You know what I mean? Because it was like, oh, this is great. This is something from my life. in the real world is being folded in naturally

into the characters and then from the top rope the bartender. You know, and also you didn't know it was going to air during the playoffs. That's a savage dream

that makes it worse. The savagery is we didn't shoot an alt. Yeah. We didn't have an alt for if you guys went all, you know,

won the championship. That's the thing. There was such confidence that James Harden trade would blow up and that the second round would go the way that it did that you didn't even have to look back.

I mean, you guys had so many other things on your plate. That was just, you could, name the episode that. There were discussions. What if?

Yeah, we were tracking. I mean, I was, we were tracking. And actually, as the season went on as it kind of was like, they're good. When Hardin had that like really good. Yeah, when Hardin had that really good run when he first came on board. Like I was like, uh-oh, this joke may not. When he could run. You mean when his hamstring's functioning?

Yeah. Does it comfort you at all to know it came from a Clippers fan who has been probably the butt of way more jokes than you ever have been or will be. I want to say yes to be the bigger person. I can't be honest and say yes, but I'll accept it. I felt, you know, I watch you guys, you guys are clearly watching me. So that's all. That's my takeaway.

Yeah, it's a dialogue. Like all great art. So here we are again. I think when we spoke last year around this time, I think I asked you about future your plans for the show. You said, obviously, you had a plan and a vision. I don't know if it was a wink-wink. You knew you were being renewed at that point when we spoke, but you quickly were renewed. We're in a similar place right now. Do you guys have any knowledge? Your video's glitchy, so I can't tell if you're winking. But where do you feel things stand in terms of the

future of the show? Well, I think we're kind of in a place where we definitely have a plan and a vision. We know what we want to do moving forward, but we haven't gotten picked up officially yet, but we really want to be. Yeah, I mean, I'll say it, and I'll say it again when we introduce this interview before you guys are on it. I think it's insane that you're not renewed already. I mean, it's just so bizarre to me. You're an Emmy award-winning phenomenal comedy on a streaming platform that, you know,

it needs everything that it could possibly get and it has something great. And I don't really understand what's going on over there, but I hope that you guys get clarity soon because you certainly deserve it. If you may be you're winking or nodding, but I don't know. Well, despite the violence of that joke, which I clearly have not gotten over, it is a... What if Joe Mandy came in? What if there was a fifth square suddenly appeared?

He's been here the whole time. We can send a link. Yeah, we can send him the Zoom link right now. It's too raw. I want to just say congratulations to all of you for events that happened on the show and also off of the show. And I'm so happy you guys can come back on and talk to me about it, It's just one of the best things out there. And I hope you come back.

Thank you so much. Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us. Really appreciate it.